[00:14] <dutchie> humphreybc: get my "answering machine" messages?
[00:14] <humphreybc> sure did
[00:15] <dutchie> also, I fixed the planet
[00:15] <humphreybc> yup saw that, sweet as
[00:21] <humphreybc> what's the new branch dutchie?
[00:21] <humphreybc> testing translations?
[00:21] <dutchie> I set up auto translation exports
[00:22] <dutchie> not going to blat them straight into the main branch until I've tested things out
[00:24] <humphreybc> haha fair enough, good thinking
[00:24] <humphreybc> so they're auto exports?
[00:24] <dutchie> yep
[00:24] <humphreybc> cool
[00:24] <humphreybc> how'd you do that?
[00:24] <dutchie> set the launchpad "auto export branch"
[00:25] <humphreybc> ah
[00:26] <dutchie> almost tempted to try setting a bzr pre-commit hook to update the translations
[00:26] <dutchie> but I'm busy writing now :)
[00:37] <godbyk> dutchie: Are you the translations guy?
[00:37] <godbyk> I've been playing with them (on the LaTeX side).
[00:37] <dutchie> godbyk: ah yes?
[00:38] <godbyk> Yeah, I've updated the Makefile to build and compile the translated manual.
[00:38] <godbyk> And that generally works..
[00:38] <godbyk> But now I have to find some typefaces that support all the scripts/languages we're translating to.
[00:38] <godbyk> That's proving to be more difficult.
[00:39]  * dutchie looks into bzr hooks to update the pot file on each commit
[00:45] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: Thomas Cantera has signed on to write chapter 2
[00:45] <godbyk> when the translators get an updated file, does it show the diff so they can see what changed? or are they continuously retranslating the same stuff repeatedly?
[00:46] <dutchie> godbyk: I think LP is intelligent enough not to translate the same thing over and over
[00:46] <godbyk> cool.  was just curious.
[00:57] <humphreybc> godbyk: how do I do a copyright symbol?
[00:57] <humphreybc> (For windows)
[00:58] <dutchie> do you really need to?
[00:58] <humphreybc> it's the first time we mention it i think
[00:58] <humphreybc> in the prologue
[00:58] <dutchie> I thought it was enough to credit it somewhere
[00:58] <humphreybc> okay
[00:58] <dutchie> IANAL etc etc
[00:58] <humphreybc> well i suppose we can figure that out down the track
[00:59] <godbyk> humphreybc: \textcopyright{}, I think will do it.
[00:59] <godbyk> There's one on the copyright page (in frontmatter/copyright.tex, I think)
[00:59] <godbyk> Oh, you mean a registered trademark symbol or somesuch instead, I think.
[01:00] <godbyk> didn't we decide not to use those?
[01:00] <humphreybc> i think so
[01:00] <humphreybc> offtopic, what's the "version 1.0" on the copyright page for?
[01:00] <godbyk> humphreybc: Erm.. I think that was left over from the copy/paste from another book I worked on.
[01:00] <humphreybc> and is it possible to make the bottom margin a bit smaller? we could probably save a tonne of pages that way
[01:01] <humphreybc> okay i'll fix up the copyright thing now
[01:01] <godbyk> humphreybc: yeah, yeah.. the whole design is getting a facelift. :-)
[01:01] <humphreybc> ho?
[01:01] <humphreybc> oh*?
[01:01] <godbyk> yep.
[01:02] <humphreybc> cool what's changing?
[01:02] <godbyk> pretty much everything will be redone so it works better with whatever page sizes and fonts we end up using, etc.
[01:02] <humphreybc> cool
[01:02] <humphreybc> will it save some file size?
[01:02] <godbyk> everything that's there now is pretty much just placeholder until I get time to do it right.
[01:02] <godbyk> I don't know how it'll affect the file size.
[01:04] <humphreybc> righto
[01:04] <humphreybc> i've got a question
[01:05] <humphreybc> with PDFs
[01:05] <godbyk> fire away
[01:05] <humphreybc> would there be a difference in file size if you had the same amount of content squeezed into less pages, rather than more pages but the same content?
[01:05] <humphreybc> like would adjusting the margins and font size, therefore reducing page count save file size?
[01:06] <godbyk> Well, there's a little overhead for a new page, but I don't think it'd matter too much.  Just guessing, though.
[01:06] <godbyk> Probably a little bit.
[01:06]  * dutchie wonders if it's worth pointing out that it should be "fewer pages"
[01:06] <godbyk> But compared to loading the PDF with screenshots and embedding fonts, I don't think it'll matter much.
[01:06] <humphreybc> okay. well every kilobyte counts
[01:07] <godbyk> Once we have all the content, we can see about optimizing the PDFs for size.
[01:07] <humphreybc> swell
[01:07] <humphreybc> do you know of any comparable documents on the net, examples etc... that have about 80 pages with screenshots?
[01:07] <humphreybc> so that we can get a rough idea of their size
[01:08] <godbyk> Hmm.. not right off.
[01:09] <humphreybc> okay well if you come across something similar to ours, then see what the file size is
[01:11] <humphreybc> the "makeuseof.com" Karmic bible has 52 pages, a fair amount of screenshots and it's 1.4mb
[01:12] <humphreybc> I think as long as we're under 2mb we should be okay. I'll talk to Jorge Castro, who packages up the example content for Ubuntu, and see what he says. He told me a couple of weeks ago that he could get rid of a lot of crap that's currently example content and put our manual in place
[01:13] <godbyk> What are the limits we're allowed?
[01:13] <godbyk> The manual as it stands now is ~500K.
[01:14] <humphreybc> there's no limits on the size
[01:14] <humphreybc> but the smaller it is, the more chance we have of being included on the CD
[01:14] <godbyk> I see.
[01:15] <humphreybc> for example, pitivi is an entire program and it's only 2.5mb
[01:15] <godbyk> Btw, dealing with the translations is opening up whole new territory for me with LaTeX.
[01:15] <humphreybc> heh well you can add that to your resume :P
[01:15] <godbyk> Handily, it's forcing me to learn some things I hadn't had an excuse to learn before. :-)
[01:16] <humphreybc> but yeah, file size is paramount if we want to get it on the CD
[01:16] <humphreybc> we might have to pull some tricks like the US military had to do to get a B-52 to take off from a carrier in WW2
[01:16] <godbyk> I think we'll have to wait until we have more of the content (and screenshots) in before we can start looking to optimize for file size.
[01:17] <humphreybc> yup
[01:17] <humphreybc> it's just something to be aware of
[01:17] <humphreybc> anyway i'm going to grab something to eat
[01:17] <godbyk> Sure.  When are we starting to collect the screenshots?
[01:17] <humphreybc> um
[01:17] <humphreybc> not sure, probably about beta
[01:18] <humphreybc> we can't take too many too soon because Lucid is still in alpha
[01:18] <humphreybc> it'll definitely be a crazy rush for us to get screenshots in so many languages in such a short time
[01:18] <humphreybc> that will be the real test :S
[01:19] <humphreybc> good times :)
[01:20] <godbyk> I can imagine!
[01:20] <dutchie> we'll also need to freeze writing some time before actual release to allow translations to catch up
[01:20] <humphreybc> totally
[01:20] <humphreybc> around beta i'd say
[01:21] <humphreybc> that's why we really need to get the main content done asap
[01:21] <humphreybc> allow fine tuning and editing to take place between alpha - beta
[01:21] <humphreybc> then freeze writing at beta, allow translations to catch up, and start sourcing screenshots
[01:21] <humphreybc> could someone have a look at the lucid release schedule and see what version of Lucid will be out at our beta?
[01:24] <wolter> hey humphreybc
[01:24] <wolter> sorry for the mail :S
[01:25] <wolter> is that in the mail you wrote "You are receiving this mail because (...)"
[01:34] <humphreybc> no worries wolter, perhaps i should have made it clearer that I was CC'ing it to everyone
[01:34] <wolter> no worries ben :)
[01:35] <humphreybc> I was just thinking, if we're going to get on the CD, our manual will only be the english version - we'll have to have a page very near the start, possibly even before the title page, that says "To get this manual in your own language, visit... " and then translate that in 30 languages
[01:35] <humphreybc> We'll also have to have each language PDF version available in the repositories... so package names like ubuntu-manual-fr etc
[01:35] <wolter> haha
[01:35] <humphreybc> either that or we just have the source in the repos, and then when installing it picks up what language they're using, and then builds the correct version
[01:35] <wolter> sounds like easy >> "and then translate in 30 languages"
[01:35] <humphreybc> but that would require a lot of dependencies. thoughts?
[01:36] <humphreybc> of course the example content at present is only in english
[01:36] <wolter> I think that, as each version of ubuntu has its own per-language version, I think it would be no problem shipping the manual in the cd already built
[01:36] <wolter> but, there is one thing:
[01:37] <wolter> if the manual were to come pre-installed, then the manual should be downloadable from ubuntu official repos
[01:37] <humphreybc> i think they only build one version of the CD, but include many locales and you can choose your language
[01:37] <wolter> ahh
[01:37] <wolter> yes thats true...
[01:37] <humphreybc> we can't include all of the ubuntu manual locales, there wouldn't be enough space
[01:37] <wolter> ugh.. yes indeed, that sounded so much like windows
[01:38] <humphreybc> so what do we do?
[01:38] <godbyk> If they're to get it from the repository, it may be just as easy to get it from a nice url (like http://ubuntu-manua.org/)
[01:38] <godbyk> since both require internet access anyway.
[01:39] <godbyk> and the 'download it from the web' step is already familiar to more people than 'get it from this repository thing that we haven't explained yet'
[01:39] <godbyk> Also, Ubuntu should just move to DVDs already. :-)
[01:39] <humphreybc> haha
[01:40] <humphreybc> well they haven't moved to DVDs yet so unfortunately we have to work with what we've got
[01:40] <humphreybc> so, let's say that one version is included as example content
[01:40] <humphreybc> that would be the english version
[01:41] <godbyk> We could provide links to the versions in other languages that download it from the web.
[01:41] <humphreybc> and for people who set up their computer with another language, they're going to wonder why they still have a manual that's in english when everything else is in their own language
[01:41] <godbyk> Or maybe a script that snags the right one during install?
[01:41] <humphreybc> but what if they're installing offline?
[01:41] <pererik87> english one with links inside
[01:41] <humphreybc> perhaps a script that downloads the right one during install, and if they don't have internet access, then it defaults to the english one
[01:42] <pererik87> or what he said
[01:42] <godbyk> pererik87: That's a good idea. We can have hyperlinks to download their language version.
[01:42] <humphreybc> also, if we're going to have it in the repositories/software center... you can't really have 30+ results when you type "ubuntu manual" into the software center search field
[01:42] <wolter> humphreybc, don't they ship desktop help in all languages then?
[01:42] <pererik87> i think all ideas combined
[01:42] <humphreybc> wolter I think they do yes
[01:43] <wolter> maybe we could code a small app that would build the manual
[01:43] <wolter> from source
[01:43] <wolter> like in the desktop, "Get Ubuntu Manual"
[01:43] <wolter> or something
[01:43] <humphreybc> You guys may have heard about that new software center feature where you are able to choose "extras" to install for packages?
[01:43] <wolter> i don't know, that could be discussed later
[01:43] <humphreybc> wolter, too many dependencies,... latex etc
[01:43] <wolter> ah.. true
[01:43] <wolter> i just thought about what you said earlier
[01:43] <wolter> maybe just a download link?
[01:43] <humphreybc> we could just list the Ubuntu Manual as one entry in the software center, and then in the extras drop down box they can choose what language to install... i'd have to talk to the SC guys about that though.
[01:43] <wolter> or a download link in the ubuntu download page.
[01:44] <godbyk> []whoops! closed the wrong window.
[01:44] <pererik87> script autodetects and downloads for right language. this function is already there for language files. And links inside for different languages.
[01:44] <humphreybc> I think it has to be more automated than just a download link
[01:44] <humphreybc> okay so a script sounds good
[01:44] <humphreybc> and if we can utilize this "extras" thing in the SC then we can just have one listing for the manual, and they can choose what language to install
[01:45] <humphreybc> I think multiple languages is a real selling point for us, I don't believe any similar documentation can boast that it's available in 30+ languages.
[01:45] <humphreybc> (apart from ubuntu docs)
[01:45] <humphreybc> by similar i mean the official ubuntu book, the karmic bible, Keir Thomas' Ubuntu pocket guide etc
[01:48] <wolter> 'xactly
[01:49]  * godbyk is just thinking how much easier this'll be for the 10.10 release.  <sigh>
[01:49] <pererik87> packet manager also works by language. if it was added to the repostory. the language would update itself on first update
[01:50] <godbyk> what's packet manager?
[01:50] <pererik87> software center if you like thet better
[01:51] <wolter> hahah
[01:51] <wolter> i think he wanted you to say "package" manager
[01:51] <godbyk> ah! gotcha.
[01:51] <pererik87> haha im not native in english, and typing fast isnt helping
[01:52] <godbyk> I was trying to figure out who would want to manage individual network packets. :-)
[01:53] <humphreybc> lol
[01:53] <humphreybc> godbyk: heh... yes time is short... but that's okay
[01:53] <humphreybc> we will survive
[01:53]  * humphreybc sings
[01:53] <godbyk> It'll be a lot easier the next time because all of this framework stuff will be done.
[01:54] <humphreybc> indeed
[01:54] <humphreybc> getting it sorted for 10.10 will be a breeze after this
[01:54] <humphreybc> i can work on other projects! I will have a life! yay!
[01:56] <wolter> haha
[01:56] <wolter> (toolshed!) wooow!
[01:57] <humphreybc> heh
[01:57] <humphreybc> indeed
[01:57] <humphreybc> right i'm going to go and sit outside in the sun, read my book and eat something
[01:57] <humphreybc> back later
[01:57] <godbyk> see ya
[05:05] <IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: re Thomas Cantera signing up for chapter 2... very nice.
[08:09] <humphreybc> for anyone having difficulty explaining bzr, I suggest they check out Ground Control by Martin Owens
[08:09] <humphreybc> he just released beta version today
[08:09] <humphreybc> i'm just testing it out at the moment
[08:09] <humphreybc> http://doctormo.wordpress.com/2010/01/27/ground-control-demonstration/
[08:10] <humphreybc> is anyone in here at the moment?
[08:10] <humphreybc> ping godbyk, IlyaHaykinson, jmburgess
[08:11] <godbyk> I'm here.
[08:12] <humphreybc> could you do me a quick favour, make a tiny change and push it
[08:12] <humphreybc> i just want to test how ground control handles pulling
[08:12] <humphreybc> before i recommend it to the rest of the team
[08:14] <humphreybc> I changed the "P" in project on the first line of the readme to "p"
[08:14] <humphreybc> perhaps just change it back to uppercase and push
[08:16] <godbyk> sure
[08:16] <godbyk> one sec
[08:16] <humphreybc> cool
[08:19] <godbyk> humphreybc: okay.
[08:19] <godbyk> I changed some spacing in the readme and pushed.
[08:20] <humphreybc> neat
[08:21] <humphreybc> yeah ground control is really nice
[08:22] <humphreybc> should make it easy for new contributors to submit things
[08:22] <humphreybc> i'm not sure how it pulls though... i'll have to talk to martin about it
[08:23] <godbyk> cool.  I'll have to check it out.
[08:24] <humphreybc> what's up with this btw? https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-bengali-manual
[08:25] <humphreybc> i might make a short video tomorrow demonstrating bzr
[08:28] <thorwil> humphreybc: hi! you should really do something about quoting in your email client
[08:29] <humphreybc> lol how do you mean? I use gmail
[08:29] <thorwil> humphreybc: well, there's nothing that distinguishes quotes from your replies
[08:30] <humphreybc> oh okay, I didn't know
[08:30] <humphreybc> what client are you using
[08:30] <humphreybc> ?
[08:30] <thorwil> humphreybc: evolution
[08:30] <thorwil> humphreybc: the standard is > on the left of each quoted line
[08:31] <humphreybc> gmail probably has a quoting feature but i've never used it
[08:31] <thorwil> humphreybc: i'm rather sure i saw correct quotes in emails from people using gmail
[08:32] <godbyk> humphreybc: Are you using plain text or rich text in gmail?  The plain text setting adds the > prefix for quoted lines.  not sure what the rich text version does.
[08:33] <humphreybc> rich text
[08:33] <humphreybc> rich text looks like it indents and adds a vertical rule next to the quote
[08:33] <humphreybc> i'm looking into google labs
[08:34] <thorwil> humphreybc: i looked into the html version of your last mail. no indent or anything else there either
[08:34] <humphreybc> I found a "Quote selected text" lab thing
[08:35] <thorwil> sometimes one could think the gmail makers never used mailing lists
[08:36] <humphreybc> hmm, maybe it's just evolution not liking gmail's rich text quoting
[08:36] <humphreybc> Usually if I quote something in chunks I'll italicize what i'm quoting and use quotation marks around it.
[08:37] <humphreybc> (as well as it gets indented for rich text, and for other gmail users, it appears as purple font)
[08:37] <humphreybc> thorwil: do you have a blog?
[08:38] <thorwil> humphreybc: i configured it to default to plain text. actually, there is indention in the html version, but not for the quote you placed on the top (manually i guess)
[08:38] <humphreybc> ah okay, sorry
[08:38] <thorwil> there are no italics
[08:38] <thorwil> humphreybc: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/
[08:38] <humphreybc> cool
[08:39] <humphreybc> dutchie: could you add this feed to the planet? ^^
[08:39] <humphreybc> thorwil: this is what I myself and other gmail users see: http://humphreybc.homeip.net/files/quote.png
[08:40] <thorwil> humphreybc: could well be that i don't blog about the manual, or only once after this version is done
[08:41] <humphreybc> your call whether you want to be on the planet or not
[08:41] <thorwil> humphreybc: no idea why the color don't appear in the html. anyway, this doesn't degrade gracefully, so better use >
[08:42] <godbyk> humphreybc: With the most recent email you sent, I just see italicized text for quotes.  (I'm using gmail.)
[08:42] <humphreybc> righto
[08:42] <thorwil> humphreybc: i wouldn't mind, if you have no issue with a lack of posts that are directly relevant ;)
[08:42] <humphreybc> go for it
[08:43] <thorwil> dutchie: so yes, please :)
[08:43] <thorwil> anyone seen kolorguild lately?
[08:44] <humphreybc> thorwil: refresh that link I gave you and you'll see another example of gmail quoting
[08:44] <humphreybc> nope
[08:44] <humphreybc> a few of the team members have disappeared off the planet
[08:45] <thorwil> that's the quoting style i mean
[08:45] <humphreybc> also thorwil if you have style/design stuff which you'd like to discuss at the meeting, could you put it on the meeting agenda? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings
[08:46] <godbyk> humphreybc: the second quoting style is nicer.
[08:47] <thorwil> humphreybc: will do so in a moment
[08:48] <humphreybc> cool
[08:48] <humphreybc> I think it will be good for you to have your blog on the planet, and any style team announcements or decisions and proposals can be announced there
[08:49]  * vish wonders... where is this manual planet blog?
[08:49] <vish> humphreybc: you neednt italicize the quoted text
[08:50] <humphreybc> vish: planet.interesting.co.nz
[08:50] <vish> i think thats where stuff gets messed up ;)
[08:55] <humphreybc> righto
[08:58] <humphreybc> anyone know how to use memoserv on IRC?
[08:59] <godbyk> Sure: /msg memoserv help
[08:59] <godbyk> :-)
[09:03] <om26er> how can I help the ubuntu manual project.
[09:07] <vish> om26er: have a look at > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual#Contributions
[09:15] <dutchie> hah, just missed him
[09:22] <dutchie> thorwil: you have been added :)
[09:22] <thorwil> ty!
[09:22] <dutchie> do you want a photo to go with your feed items?
[09:23] <thorwil> dutchie: nope
[09:23] <dutchie> no problem
[09:24] <dutchie> that's actually easier for me :)
[09:27] <thorwil> vish: got something to add/change about the agenda? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings
[09:27]  * vish checks
[09:28] <vish> seriously o.0 > " New to Ubuntu (10.04)? Read this!! "
[09:30] <thorwil> vish: i just added all the proposals ;)
[09:30] <thorwil> vish: an awful one can still get people to think
[09:30] <vish> the other one which wont work is > "Ubuntu (10.04): A Beginners Guide "
[09:31] <thorwil> vish: why? (will you be present on the meeting?)
[09:31] <vish> ^that plain wrong! its meaning the "Ubuntu" is a beginners guide :/
[09:32]  * vish will try to be present
[09:32] <vish> thorwil: the list is for "title" or for "catch phrases" ?
[09:33] <thorwil> vish: title and optionally also sub-title
[09:35] <thorwil> vish: true, it should rather be A Beginner's Guide to Ubuntu
[09:35] <vish> yeah...
[09:38] <thorwil> edited
[14:29] <thorwil> godbyk, vish: started to work on an A4 layout template: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/%7Et-w-/%2Bjunk/ubuntu_manual_cover/download/head%3A/layout_a4.svg-20100128134918-yenbpm0zvsr3vg5l-1/layout_a4.svg
[14:29]  * thorwil goes to work in the garden
[16:42] <koogee> hi, i'm having trouble with compiling the manual... following instructions on the wiki the 'make' process errors out...any help?
[17:04] <thorwil> koogee: chances that someone can help you increase if you provide the error message
[17:08] <koogee> its a lengthy log...how can i post the entire thing here...
[17:08] <thorwil> koogee: use a pastebin
[17:08] <thorwil> koogee: e.g. http://pastebin.com/
[17:10] <koogee> http://pastebin.com/m160f387d
[17:16] <thorwil> koogee: i guess that's a matter for godbyk, who might be around in a few hours (not sure what his timezone is)
[17:17] <koogee> okay...thanks for your help anyways...
[17:26] <koogee> http://pastebin.com/m160f387d