[01:53] <godbyk> Hey, humphreybc.  I won't be able to make it to tomorrow's meeting; I got roped into helping a friend move.  I'll try to write up a summary of my recent work for you, though.
[02:11] <humphreybc> haha
[02:11] <humphreybc> no probs kevin
[02:11] <humphreybc> anything you want to say etc in the meeting, either email it to me and i'll say it on your behalf, or put it on the wiki somewhere
[02:12] <godbyk> k
[02:12] <godbyk> this week I've spent most my time working on getting the translations going (TeX-wise).
[02:17] <wolter> hey humphreybc
[02:18] <wolter> i think its 99% probable that i will attend the meeting tomorrow
[02:18] <wolter> i say 99% because i don't really know whether my mother will create plans or not
[02:18] <wolter> but otherwise, i will be there
[02:18] <wolter> also, as I have returned from my trip, i am know able to work again
[02:19] <wolter> also, i installed ground control
[02:19] <wolter> and its great, but I don't see a "pull" button
[02:21] <humphreybc> wolter: Martin is going to implement pull support soon
[02:21] <humphreybc> for the meantime you just have to commit and push your changes, delete your code and then get it again under a different "work name"
[02:22] <wolter> oh nice
[02:22] <wolter> yeah, and i hope that the pull button is aside of the 'delete code' button
[02:23] <wolter> anyway, brb
[20:02] <wolter> Hi
[20:02] <wolter> meeting now?
[20:02] <IlyaHaykinson_> in #ubuntu-meeting
[20:02] <wolter> oh ok
[20:10] <humphreybc> righto
[20:10] <humphreybc> so now we should be in here :)
[20:10] <wolter> present members, please report
[20:11] <thorwil> !
[20:11] <ubuntujenkins> hello
[20:11] <KelvinGardiner> hello
[20:11]  * IlyaHaykinson waves
[20:11] <humphreybc> cool cool
[20:11] <humphreybc> right
[20:11] <humphreybc> #startmeeting
[20:11] <MootBot> Meeting started at 14:11. The chair is humphreybc.
[20:11] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[20:11] <voxwoman> OK... is this the right place?
[20:11] <wolter> yes
[20:11] <humphreybc> [TOPIC] Target Audience
[20:11] <MootBot> New Topic:  Target Audience
[20:12] <wolter> Good
[20:12] <humphreybc> I suppose firstly I should say hi and thanks for coming :P
[20:12] <wolter> Of course :)
[20:12] <wolter> This new schedule is a lot better
[20:12] <humphreybc> now, onto business! the target audience, we need to decide on one
[20:12] <rachaelb> hi
[20:12] <rachaelb> sorry im late
[20:12] <wolter> To whomever may correspond, if you are lost, follow this meeting plan https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings
[20:12] <humphreybc> rachaelb: no probs
[20:12] <tacantara> I'm baaack
[20:13] <rachaelb> target audience i guess are win users who dont know anything about linux apartfrom the name
[20:13] <humphreybc> so this is what dutchie wants me to say about the target audience, he sees it as someone like his mum - someone who just wants to get things done, print something, email, go on the internet, view photos. Her computer is a means to an end
[20:13] <IlyaHaykinson> my thoughts: new computer users; novice users
[20:14] <ubuntujenkins> I agree with Ilya
[20:14] <wolter> So, my idea of the target audience is anybody who has used a computer before but not ubuntu, so he knows how to do basic stuff and move around a bit at least
[20:14] <IlyaHaykinson> also: people comfortable with day-to-day tasks in windows or macos, and who want to try Ubuntu (or need it for some other reason)
[20:14] <voxwoman> So we have to handhold them thru installing the OS, configuring their system and getting functional?
[20:14] <humphreybc> I agree with dutchie: I think we should be targeting people who want to use their Ubuntu computer to "get things done" - which mainly means people like what IlyaHaykinson said, new computer users
[20:14] <wolter> I think dutchie's example is great
[20:14] <thorwil> basic mouse/keyboard skills are a must to even get to the manual
[20:15] <wolter> yes
[20:15] <IlyaHaykinson> i've typed up a longer description: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/StyleGuide -- in the section "writing for newbies"
[20:15] <tacantara> As a noob, I think wolter hit the nail on the head
[20:15] <humphreybc> voxwoman: well sort of, we have a step by step installation example, and yes we will provide fairly detailed steps when it comes to basic stuff. I think the emphasis and the majority of the manual should dwell on the simple things
[20:15] <IlyaHaykinson> "In general, assume that a user does not know their monitor from their computer, that the user does not understand the difference between memory and a hard drive, and that the user does not intuitively pick up these things unless we point them out.
[20:15] <IlyaHaykinson> However, also assume that a user is very interested in accomplishing certain tasks. A user wants to do the very basics on their computer: browse the Web, read and compose email, use instant messaging, create, manage, exchange, and edit various files (documents, images, audio, video).
[20:15] <IlyaHaykinson> "We should assume that people have the skills of using the keyboard and mouse, and that they are generally aware of the multi-window desktop interface. "
[20:15] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: that sounds like my mother
[20:16] <IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: good! i was modeling it after my experience with my grandfather using Vista
[20:16] <jaminday> hi all apologies for being late - was having pidgin issues
[20:16] <humphreybc> but hang on, if they "do not know their monitor from their computer" how will they "have the skills of using the keyboard and mouse?"
[20:16] <thorwil> i know users who can handle keyboard and mouse, bet get confused with windows
[20:16] <humphreybc> jaminday: no worries
[20:16] <IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: i mean terminology wise
[20:16] <IlyaHaykinson> my wife continually refers to the monitor as the computer, and the computer as the brain.
[20:16] <humphreybc> well my mum doesn't even know how to turn off her computer or turn it on - she reaches for the button on the monitor, instead of the "box on the floor"
[20:16] <voxwoman> I haven't used Ubuntu yet, is this a windows interface or a command line (or both)?
[20:16] <wolter> haha
[20:17] <IlyaHaykinson> but she obviously knows how to use them all.
[20:17] <humphreybc> voxwoman: it's neither, it's a complete new operating system. Think how Mac OS X is compared to windows.
[20:17] <IlyaHaykinson> voxwoman: it's somewhere between Mac OS and Windows in its interface.
[20:17] <voxwoman> I didn't mean windows as MS Windows... I meant a GUI interface as opposed to a CLI
[20:18] <IlyaHaykinson> GUI
[20:18] <voxwoman> Thanks
[20:18] <humphreybc> (it does have a CLI but we're not going to talk about that in our manual, too complicated)
[20:18] <thorwil> i guess readers younger than 16 are unlikely. even more older than 70
[20:18] <thorwil> but where would be a likely peak?
[20:18] <IlyaHaykinson> my grandfather was 80 when he got his computer setup up, thorwil
[20:18] <IlyaHaykinson> i don't think age matters.
[20:19] <wolter> thorwil, yes, I think you're right about the ages
[20:19] <IlyaHaykinson> i think for an audience, skillset is probably key
[20:19] <thorwil> IlyaHaykinson: there are always excpetions
[20:19] <voxwoman> Don't think age - think experience level
[20:19] <wolter> I agree with voxwoman and IlyaHaykinson
[20:19] <wolter> It is the skills that matter, not the time on this planet
[20:19] <thorwil> remember that the target audience is about design decisions
[20:19] <voxwoman> and there should be something listed in the preface about what the reader is expected to already know and what we are going to explain to them
[20:20] <humphreybc> I personally don't think we should talk about how to use their hardware (mouse/keyboard) too much... because it might be different for each person and we don't want to stray too far away from what we know. Obviously keyboard buttons and things are okay to talk about, because they are generic - but the location of the power off button? Like how detailed will we need to be when talking about how to turn it back on when they've tu
[20:20] <humphreybc> ah voxwoman good idea
[20:20] <ubuntujenkins> they would have got hold of ubuntu some how or found the manual so they probably would have some keyboard and mouse skills
[20:20] <humphreybc> okay
[20:20] <IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: we need to cover the keyboard and mouse because there are preference panels for those, and because of ibus settings etc.
[20:20] <thorwil> the more specific the audience, the better for design. this doesn't stop anyone not matching the definition from using the manual
[20:20] <IlyaHaykinson> but of course we don't need to cover specific keystrokes etc
[20:21] <humphreybc> okay so, target audience... people coming from windows or mac with basic computer knowledge who are used to just "getting things done" and for them, computers are a means to an end.
[20:21] <IlyaHaykinson> again, as i wrote in the style guide, "We should assume that people have the skills of using the keyboard and mouse, and that they are generally aware of the multi-window desktop interface. "
[20:21] <IlyaHaykinson> so we assume that we don't need to teach them about a cursor etc
[20:21] <IlyaHaykinson> or what a button or a menu is. but that we need to be very clear on what button or menu to click.
[20:21] <humphreybc> what do ya'll think about that definition above?
[20:21] <voxwoman> what I've done in the past is have (again, in the preface) a list of conventions that sometimes gets very detailed about how to use pointing devices and text input, and more importantly how we refer to them in the rest of the text
[20:22] <humphreybc> so like a "key" if you will
[20:22] <humphreybc> right?
[20:22] <thorwil> humphreybc: it's vague
[20:22] <IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: i agree with your definition, though users can just be new to computers in general, and don't know windows from mac. there are still a lot of people like that in the world.
[20:22] <humphreybc> thorwil: well to be honest i'm not sure how more defined we're going to get - Ubuntu is designed to appeal to a wide market of people
[20:23] <tacantara> Hmmm....glossary?
[20:23] <IlyaHaykinson> either way, i think we're all saying the same thing basically.
[20:23] <humphreybc> we just need to put it in words
[20:23] <IlyaHaykinson> also, i strongly agree with voxwoman's idea about adding a "conventions used in this book" type of a section
[20:23] <humphreybc> yeah that is a good idea
[20:23] <IlyaHaykinson> it'll also be a place to point out our use of the "!!" for advanced / warnings etc
[20:23] <KelvinGardiner> I agree with voxwoman too.
[20:24] <humphreybc> [VOTE] "conventions used in this book" section
[20:24] <MootBot> Please vote on:  "conventions used in this book" section.
[20:24] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[20:24] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-manual
[20:24] <rachaelb> this may sound dumb... but my mum is 81 and a complete linux convert :) however she doesnt want to have to wade thru loads of material to find something, she jsut wants to be able to do it
[20:24] <humphreybc> +1
[20:24] <MootBot> +1 received from humphreybc. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[20:24] <ubuntujenkins> +1
[20:24] <MootBot> +1 received from ubuntujenkins. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[20:24] <jaminday> +1
[20:24] <voxwoman> +1
[20:24] <MootBot> +1 received from jaminday. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[20:24] <MootBot> +1 received from voxwoman. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[20:24] <KelvinGardiner> +1
[20:24] <waltmenz> +1
[20:24] <MootBot> +1 received from KelvinGardiner. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
[20:24] <MootBot> +1 received from waltmenz. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
[20:24] <IlyaHaykinson> +1
[20:24] <wolter> +1
[20:24] <MootBot> +1 received from IlyaHaykinson. 7 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 7
[20:24] <MootBot> +1 received from wolter. 8 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 8
[20:24]  * vish just noticed meeting was here ! thanks wolter  ;)
[20:24] <wolter> np :)
[20:24] <tacantara> +1
[20:24] <MootBot> +1 received from tacantara. 9 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 9
[20:24] <humphreybc> (to vote you can just say + 1 or - 1 = for and against)
[20:25] <humphreybc> anyone else like to vote?
[20:25] <thorwil> but what's the desired and likely core group? the peak of the curve? male/female, around 30 years, or is there perhaps a wave above 60, actually?
[20:25] <humphreybc> [ENDVOTE]
[20:25] <MootBot> Final result is 9 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 9
[20:25] <jaminday> rachaelb: there will be a contents page that can help with quick navigation
[20:25] <IlyaHaykinson> thorwil: i would not segment by gender or age. no need -- skillset and experience cross those boundaries.
[20:26] <IlyaHaykinson> and i don't think we need to write differently for different ages, either.
[20:26] <thorwil> IlyaHaykinson: once again, it's about having a base for design decisions
[20:26] <wolter> sorry if i am not very active, but right now i am suffering from a 'wtf-nosebleed'
[20:26] <humphreybc> thorwil: how about you ask us some questions on what you need to know?
[20:27] <rachaelb> sorry... phone .... gotta go.... but please contact me (im on the list) re indexing and biographis etc if you need it :)
[20:27] <rachaelb> but
[20:27] <rachaelb> bye
[20:27] <rachaelb> *
[20:27] <wolter> ok
[20:27] <humphreybc> because many of us aren't design minded, and I think if you could ask some open questions we might be able to give you a more focused reply
[20:27] <thorwil> humphreybc: if you imagine a set of charts refering to the audience, you would have on age chart. where would we expect peaks?
[20:27] <wolter> i say ~20
[20:28] <wolter> because they're like the most active population computer-wise
[20:28]  * humphreybc googles ubuntu user average age
[20:28] <voxwoman> college-age students, and another peak 35-45. I am just completely guessing from  my geek friends
[20:28] <IlyaHaykinson> in general, i would expect a 30-60 peak. people who've used computers for a while, but would like to move to a different operating system.
[20:28] <thorwil> what's the most likely cultural background? what sites would they visit on the web ...
[20:28] <humphreybc> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=8113928
[20:28] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=8113928
[20:28] <IlyaHaykinson> and as for college age students: they're less likely to read the manual, in my opinion.
[20:28] <IlyaHaykinson> and more likely to find a friend to ask.
[20:29] <humphreybc> true
[20:29] <thorwil> ack
[20:29] <voxwoman> Boy, my guess was based on the demographic of userfriendly.org forum... LOL
[20:29] <humphreybc> also, people between 18-25 grew up with google, they'd google their answer before using a manual
[20:29] <tacantara> You swold
[20:29] <humphreybc> whereas I feel older users might prefer to read a book styled help
[20:29] <voxwoman> Is the manual on the desktop? Should it be?
[20:30] <jaminday> humphreybc: although googling their answer could now lead them to us...
[20:30] <thorwil> i hope now you see the value of thinking about more specific groups :)
[20:30] <tacantara> Oops mistype
[20:30] <humphreybc> voxwoman: It will never be on the desktop, nothing is on the desktop by default. but there should be a clear link visible somewhere
[20:30] <thorwil> voxwoman: maybe it should, but it's unlikely to happen
[20:30] <wolter> i also wanted to point out (for the target audience topic) that probably users without basic keyboard/mouse knowledge will find out about ubuntu
[20:31] <humphreybc> well it's a tough one
[20:31] <thorwil> wolter: if they'd be given a printout ...
[20:31] <humphreybc> without doing a tonne of research on who uses ubuntu, we can't really talk about graphs and charts without speculating
[20:31] <IlyaHaykinson> thorwil: my suggestion is to assume a slightly older (post-college-age) audience skew, no gender skew. that's probably the best we can do.
[20:31] <wolter> thats true
[20:31] <voxwoman> If this book is part of what's going to be used for installing Unbuntu on a VM/dual boot system they've already got, I think they will want to read the manual first. But I'm in the "old" demographic
[20:31] <tacantara> Look at how many go to UF without googling first
[20:31] <thorwil> wolter: but that what the user needed to get to the manual we don't need to tell him
[20:32] <wolter> good points thorwil
[20:32] <wolter> i drop my point :)
[20:32] <humphreybc> tacantara: I've always thought of our target audience being non geeky - ie, they probably wouldn't know about forums.
[20:32] <tacantara> True
[20:32] <humphreybc> not that using the forums is geeky
[20:32] <KelvinGardiner> humphreybc: I think that's a good assumption.
[20:32] <humphreybc> but i'm just saying, my mum would never actively look for help from the forums
[20:32] <jaminday> i agree with humphrebc - without research these are difficult questions to answer properly
[20:32] <humphreybc> she doesn't even know what a forum is
[20:33] <thorwil> IlyaHaykinson: i mainly brought up gender just so you think about men and women. anything from 30/70 to 50/50 split either way shouldn't make a difference for us
[20:33] <tacantara> My mum calls me direct lol
[20:33] <IlyaHaykinson> thorwil: makes sense.
[20:33] <KelvinGardiner> Does non geeky also mean less googling.
[20:33] <humphreybc> well not necessarily, google is pretty famous
[20:33] <voxwoman> non-geeky means they are more likely to use whatever comes up on the first page of results
[20:34] <IlyaHaykinson> i would like to suggest, unless there's actionable work on this topic, that we move on.
[20:34] <IlyaHaykinson> i feel like we generally have a good idea on our audience already
[20:34] <wolter> or that they'd rather ask somebody who knows about ubuntu, before looking it up
[20:34] <voxwoman> agrees with ilyahaykinson
[20:34] <humphreybc> thorwil: Are you happy with going off what you've heard here?
[20:34] <wolter> i think that before moving on, we should all vote on a descriptive text of the target audiecne
[20:34] <wolter> audience
[20:34] <wolter> so that every think is loud and clear
[20:34] <wolter> everything*
[20:34] <wolter> lol
[20:34] <thorwil> a collection of what was mentioned should be good enough for now, yes :)
[20:35] <humphreybc> i think we'd be sitting here all day trying to fine tune a paragraph that actually describes our target audience
[20:35] <tacantara> +1
[20:35] <humphreybc> okay moving on
[20:35] <voxwoman> +1
[20:35] <humphreybc> [VOTE] How/where/when will users come across our document?
[20:35] <MootBot> Please vote on:  How/where/when will users come across our document?.
[20:35] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[20:35] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-manual
[20:35] <humphreybc> wait
[20:35] <humphreybc> [ENDVOTE]
[20:35] <MootBot> Final result is 0 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 0
[20:35] <humphreybc> sorry it's still the morning
[20:35] <humphreybc> :)
[20:35] <humphreybc> [TOPIC] How/where/when will users come across our document?
[20:35] <MootBot> New Topic:  How/where/when will users come across our document?
[20:36] <wolter> 1. Ubuntu download page
[20:36] <IlyaHaykinson> 1) google, 2) ubuntu.com, if we are successful, 3) ubuntu distribution itself, if we are very successful
[20:36] <wolter> 2. User who helped install ubuntu
[20:36] <humphreybc> 2. Our website will probably have a download link eventually
[20:36] <wolter> 3. google
[20:36] <ubuntujenkins> how hard is it to get on the cd?
[20:36] <humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: it's quite hard
[20:36] <IlyaHaykinson> ubuntujenkins: i think easy if quality is high, hard if quality is low.
[20:36] <humphreybc> it all depends on file size
[20:36] <wolter> ubuntujenkins, we just need to get canonical's love
[20:36] <voxwoman> it *should* be very easy
[20:36] <humphreybc> oh and quality ;)
[20:36] <thorwil> humphreybc: could we have a domain for the manual?
[20:37] <humphreybc> yeah but they've got to cram a whole OS and a dozen applications into 700mb
[20:37] <IlyaHaykinson> right now i would say consistency, quality, and completeness are our main problems.
[20:37] <wolter> (lol, i am the only confirmed guest on the ubuntu manual meeting)
[20:37] <voxwoman> Is there anyway to turn this into online help as well as a book-style book? or is that beyond scope of the project?
[20:37] <tacantara> Get LOCOs to help spread the word
[20:37] <humphreybc> thorwil: heh well, eventually. right now we need to get it finished first
[20:37] <KelvinGardiner> The forum has a read this first thread in the beginners area. We should be linked from there.
[20:37] <wolter> (on facebook)
[20:37] <IlyaHaykinson> well, a download link in a prominent place is just as good as being included on the disk.
[20:37] <humphreybc> voxwoman: we can export to HTML, power of latex :)
[20:37] <thorwil> what KelvinGardiner said
[20:37] <humphreybc> basically we will have it everywhere
[20:37] <wolter> IlyaHaykinson, not if the user doesn't have a good/constant internet connection
[20:37] <humphreybc> it won't be hard to fin
[20:37] <wolter> which is likely to happen
[20:38] <humphreybc> find*
[20:38] <thorwil> yeah, even printedn on t-shirts!
[20:38] <humphreybc> heh
[20:38] <humphreybc> so the "where and how" are easy
[20:38] <IlyaHaykinson> er... that leaves the "when"?
[20:38] <voxwoman> It should be on the CD at a very high level under a /doc or /help directory
[20:38] <humphreybc> when - well, when they get ubuntu, when they download it, when they're thinking of downloading it but want to read something about it first, when their friend gives them a copy, when their grandson gives them a copy to read
[20:39] <thorwil> humphreybc: the real question might be how they get to know about it
[20:39] <IlyaHaykinson> i think we should not have to worry about this topic until our manual is finished.
[20:39] <humphreybc> voxwoman: It will probably be in "example content" and linked from the panel and apps menu
[20:39] <IlyaHaykinson> i actually totally see the possibility where for 10.04 our manual is not really well known or included, but by 10.10 it's included on the disk etc.
[20:39] <humphreybc> Also we can have a slide in the installation slideshow
[20:39] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: you're 100% right, there is still a huge chance that could happen
[20:40] <IlyaHaykinson> mainly because that way we can prove to users, and to canonical, that this is a valuable resource.
[20:40] <tacantara> Sweet idea humphreybc
[20:40] <IlyaHaykinson> right now, i think nobody will take us seriously enough.
[20:40] <humphreybc> even if we don't get on the CD this time round, we're going to get a lot of downloads just from the publicity we've already received
[20:40] <IlyaHaykinson> they can't link to us from the install, or promise a spot on the disk, etc, until we have a finished product.
[20:40] <wolter> IlyaHaykinson, well, sites like digg have already a lot of people waiting for the manual
[20:40] <humphreybc> yup
[20:40] <thorwil> IlyaHaykinson: true. this was about having an idea of context for how the manual should present itself
[20:40] <humphreybc> okay moving on to the next topic...
[20:41] <humphreybc> [TOPIC] What style/tone should we aim for, what should be the message both about our document and Ubuntu?
[20:41] <MootBot> New Topic:  What style/tone should we aim for, what should be the message both about our document and Ubuntu?
[20:41] <wolter> simple and clear
[20:41] <humphreybc> I guess welcoming
[20:41] <voxwoman> friendly yet professional :)
[20:41] <humphreybc> Ubuntu = super easy to use
[20:41] <wolter> voxwoman, +1
[20:41] <IlyaHaykinson> I point people to the "Voice" section of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/StyleGuide
[20:41] <thorwil> an aura of competence
[20:41] <thorwil> solid, secure, trustworthy, capable
[20:42] <thorwil> Ubuntu is empowering
[20:42] <humphreybc> yup
[20:42] <humphreybc> it helps you get shit done
[20:42] <humphreybc> *scuse my french
[20:42] <thorwil> community spirit
[20:42] <wolter> I totally agree with IlyaHaykinson voice thing
[20:42] <humphreybc> it should encourage you about open source
[20:42] <wolter> thorwil, +1
[20:42] <humphreybc> FOSS = awesome
[20:43] <humphreybc> it should also teach you about FOSS and Ubuntu, and how it will benefit YOU
[20:43] <IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: i think maybe a good chunk of Chapter 10 can be about this?
[20:43] <tacantara> Or think of Keir Thomas' style.  A little witty, but to the point, with user testimonial
[20:43] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: indeed
[20:43] <IlyaHaykinson> tacantara: the problem with witty is that we need to write to an international audience
[20:43] <wolter> IlyaHaykinson, humphreybc, i think that the wonders of FOSS should be introduced to earlier
[20:43] <voxwoman> this is a lot of emotional stuff - are we talking design or writing?
[20:43] <wolter> than chapter 10
[20:43] <humphreybc> tacantara: I honestly think user testimonials are cheesy and infomercial like
[20:43] <thorwil> voxwoman: design
[20:44] <voxwoman> ah... makes more sense now :)
[20:44] <thorwil> voxwoman: not that writing can be decoupled
[20:44] <wolter> like, in the ~'what is ubuntu' part, explain that it is open source, and then give  ashort paragraph about the glories of open source software
[20:44] <tacantara> Eh, I see...it is all in the translation
[20:44] <IlyaHaykinson> translating "witty" is difficult. reading "witty" for people for whom english is not their first language (and we don't have a perfect translation) is going to be difficult.
[20:44] <wolter> (FOSS)
[20:44] <KelvinGardiner> The doc team recommend not being witty
[20:44] <voxwoman> well, if I'm reading a manual, I am in there to find out how to do something. I don't much care about WHY.
[20:44] <humphreybc> yeah i'd avoid witty seeing as we're hoping to become "official"
[20:44] <wolter> yes, I think we should use more 'every-day' words
[20:44] <thorwil> better risk dryness than appearing like clowns
[20:44] <voxwoman> this was a hard lesson for me to learn during my tech writing career.
[20:44] <humphreybc> Keir Thomas is independent
[20:45] <jaminday> but keep it friendly and welcoming sans wit
[20:45] <humphreybc> righto, in agreement with that stuff?
[20:45] <thorwil> i wonder if it could be "street" abit?
[20:45] <IlyaHaykinson> another point... avoiding marketing speak is important.
[20:45] <voxwoman> "street" will turn off your >40 people.
[20:45] <IlyaHaykinson> we need to not come off as selling Ubuntu or open source or Linux or whatever.
[20:45] <IlyaHaykinson> as much as possible.
[20:45] <IlyaHaykinson> outside of well-defined sections (prologue, chapter 10)
[20:45] <wolter> i think voxwoman has good feedback to provide
[20:46] <jaminday> thorwil: can you elaborate?
[20:46] <wolter> now i recall she was the one who reported in to our mailing lists and said that she had 20 years of experience
[20:46] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: I've always wondered why you think this is a good idea?
[20:46] <voxwoman> Yes. I'm 52, and a grandmother and I've been writing hardware (and some software) manuals for about 20 year or so. I was an EE before that.
[20:46] <wolter> yes, i don't understand the "street" concept much either
[20:46] <humphreybc> Why would a little bit of "look how awesome ubuntu is!" turn off people?
[20:47] <IlyaHaykinson> because providing our own judgment is a bit insulting to people when they are reading
[20:47] <KelvinGardiner> I think voxwoman friendly and professional point was a good one.
[20:47] <thorwil> voxwoman: probably right
[20:47] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: ahh okay, so judgement, gotcha
[20:47] <wolter> humphreybc, i think it sounds unprofessional and infantile
[20:47] <IlyaHaykinson> if you say "the Ubuntu desktop is excellent" and the user thinks it sucks and they barely tolerate it, you are not connecting with them.
[20:47] <voxwoman> "Look how asweome" soemthing is is marketing stuff, generally
[20:47] <IlyaHaykinson> so i say sing the praises, but only when clearly delineated.
[20:47] <humphreybc> Yup so we should avoid personal opinion
[20:47] <jaminday> i agree with IlyaHaykinson
[20:47] <thorwil> strike "street". what i'd be after is a from everyday people for everyday people
[20:47] <IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: not totally _all_ opinion
[20:47] <wolter> humphreybc, i think you hit the nail on the head
[20:48] <wolter> we should be objective, whenever possible
[20:48] <humphreybc> okay cool
[20:48] <wolter> and not 'subjective'
[20:48] <IlyaHaykinson> we can provide suggestions on the best ways to do things for newbies.
[20:48] <wolter> of course
[20:48] <humphreybc> yup, gotcha
[20:48] <jaminday> thorwil: yeah that's what i thought you were getting at - basically keeping it in lay terms without becoming too 'techy'
[20:48] <thorwil> the system should speak for itself, regarding quality
[20:48] <IlyaHaykinson> just not unreferenced, purely subjective opinions
[20:48] <IlyaHaykinson> or better yet, only provide opinions that are consistent with Ubuntu's default options, or the doc team's recommendations.
[20:49] <humphreybc> we should also link to hard facts if we do want to quote anything that makes ubuntu sound cool. example: French police force example in the prologue
[20:49] <voxwoman> jaminday: agree with lay terms, and explain techy terms if they have to be used (like, for instance "virtual machine")
[20:49] <humphreybc> (I haven't linked that to anything yet, btw)
[20:49] <wolter> humphreybc, thats greaty
[20:49] <wolter> great*
[20:49] <tacantara> User experience vs testimonial....they are different
[20:49] <IlyaHaykinson> hm, i think it's fine in the prologue...
[20:49] <wolter> but more like in a fun facts sectioon
[20:49] <jaminday> voxwoman: yep definitely
[20:49] <humphreybc> the first half should be entirely lay terms
[20:49] <wolter> or, like 'did you know' notecallouts aside of text
[20:49] <humphreybc> the second half, the "advanced" part can go into tech speak a wee bit more
[20:50] <humphreybc> whoever's idea it was to split the manual into two sections, congrats, that's the best thing we could have done xD
[20:50]  * thorwil throws a gerbil at vish 
[20:50] <humphreybc> okay so are we happy with that? move on?
[20:50] <wolter> i don't know if it is very appropiate to say, but we should use a seducing way of writing
[20:50] <jaminday> humphreybc: yes but still explain our tech terms in part II for the uninitiated
[20:50] <wolter> i agree
[20:51] <wolter> like a leveling section
[20:51] <humphreybc> wolter: what like use a lot of sibilance? "Ubuntu is sexy, super and you can sift through your significant work with style"
[20:51] <thorwil> wolter: sorry, but how many writers do we have that would be capable of that?
[20:51] <humphreybc> hehe
[20:51] <wolter> thorwil, haha, what do you mean?
[20:52] <humphreybc> Yeah remember we don't exactly have Dale Carnegie on our writing team
[20:52] <voxwoman> and how will sibilance or alliteration translate?
[20:52] <wolter> thorwil, humphreybc i meant seductive, as in elegant and classy, simple and direct to the point
[20:52] <IlyaHaykinson> wolter: "Ubuntu is a scrumptious, passionate operating system. With it's luscious icons, and its agonizingly well-executed software packaging infrastructure, you can satisfy your fondest dreams of double-clicking" like that?
[20:52] <humphreybc> voxwoman: it won't, it's a joke :P
[20:52] <humphreybc> hahaha
[20:52] <wolter> haha not that loaded with terms
[20:52] <thorwil> wolter: it seems to me like asking for highest craftsmanship, if you don't want to risk coming of as sleazy
[20:52] <wolter> (add 'yet friendly' to what i said before)
[20:53] <humphreybc> I think that's out of the equation for three reasons: 1) we don't have that capable writers, 2) it's hard to translate and 3) it's a bit risky to start sounding "sexy"
[20:53] <humphreybc> but wolter I know what you mean
[20:53] <IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: agreed
[20:53] <humphreybc> it's like what Mac is trying to do compared to windows with their mac vs PC ads
[20:53] <wolter> ok, fair enough then
[20:53] <humphreybc> (I personally see Ubuntu as Optimus Prime in those ads)
[20:53] <jaminday> humphreybc: hehe nice
[20:53]  * wolter hasn't watched Tranformers 2
[20:53] <humphreybc> you can totally imagine him like powering into the set and squashing them bot
[20:54] <humphreybc> okay
[20:54] <humphreybc> moving on!
[20:54] <wolter> haha
[20:54] <humphreybc> oO this topic everyone will like
[20:54] <humphreybc> [TOPIC] What should the title be?
[20:54] <MootBot> New Topic:  What should the title be?
[20:54] <wolter> indeed
[20:54] <voxwoman> lol
[20:54]  * vish was reading/catching up with the meeting log and notices a flying gerbil , courtesy : thorwil  ;p
[20:54] <wolter> I'd go for "The Ubuntu Manual"
[20:54] <humphreybc> have a look at the suggestions here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings
[20:54] <humphreybc> wolter: I know it's a cool name, but I'm not sure if we can get away with that for too long
[20:54] <humphreybc> Canonical might have something to say about that
[20:55] <jaminday> "100 super-sexy ways to satisfy your ubuntu cravings"?
[20:55] <thorwil> vish: it was a vish detecting gerbil
[20:55] <jaminday> ah sorry we've moved on
[20:55] <humphreybc> haha
[20:55] <IlyaHaykinson> my Windows 95 manual (did i mention it was exactly 95 pages?) is called "introducing windows 95"
[20:55] <vish> humphreybc: stick with the current name, you would loose *all* branding you have gained so far
[20:55] <wolter> Ubuntu for you
[20:55] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: you love that manual. is it written in a sexy 90s esque manner?
[20:55] <humphreybc> well we could have that as the main title, and a sub-title
[20:55] <IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: i love it because of the hard work i had to do to find a copy! it's not actually all that good.
[20:55] <KelvinGardiner> vish: Unless we add a sub0title
[20:56] <thorwil> take into account what was said about audience, style and tone
[20:56] <wolter> i would add a subtitle
[20:56] <voxwoman> Since you didn't fall in love with "Ubuntu for Everyone"... what about Ubuntu for ALMOST Everyone"
[20:56] <IlyaHaykinson> vish: i think the branding we've gained was for _an_ ubuntu manual, not for the "ubuntu manual" exactly.
[20:56] <wolter> but what i would strive for is keeping the main title simple
[20:56] <wolter> and shoert
[20:56] <wolter> short*
[20:56] <vish> KelvinGardiner: subtitle as "The Ubuntu Manual" ?
[20:56] <wolter> as in easy to remember
[20:56] <humphreybc> voxwoman: I don't think we can eliminate people on the cover
[20:56] <IlyaHaykinson> "Using Ubuntu"?
[20:56] <humphreybc> if you know what i mean
[20:56] <humphreybc> so the main title should be "The Ubuntu Manual" - agree?
[20:57] <thorwil> no
[20:57] <vish> +1
[20:57] <jaminday> How about just simply "The Ubuntu Manual: A Beginner's Guide"
[20:57] <ubuntujenkins> +1
[20:57] <KelvinGardiner> humphreybc: yes
[20:57] <wolter> lol, waiit for the voting
[20:57] <IlyaHaykinson> hm. is the word "manual" potentially loaded with multiple meanings for non-first-language english readers?
[20:57] <voxwoman> Is it ever going to cover all the advanced topics?
[20:57] <tacantara> +1
[20:57] <humphreybc> and the subtitle needs to show: a) who it's for and b) what it's going to help you achieve
[20:57] <wolter> jaminday, "... to Ubuntu"
[20:57] <thorwil> it should get the What and ideally touch the Who
[20:57] <vish> wolter: argh!
[20:57] <vish> no
[20:57] <ubuntujenkins> we should include which version it is for
[20:58] <wolter> of course
[20:58] <jaminday> vish: hehe
[20:58] <vish> ;)
[20:58] <IlyaHaykinson> "Starting out with Ubuntu <versionnumber>"?
[20:58] <voxwoman> Getting Started with Ubuntu
[20:58] <humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: what version it's for will always be somewhere on the title page
[20:58] <voxwoman> Ubuntu Made Easy
[20:58] <vish> wolter:  "The Ubuntu Manual: A Beginner's Guide" is enough , no need for  "The Ubuntu Manual: A Beginner's Guide to Ubuntu" ;)
[20:58] <thorwil> voxwoman: good ones
[20:59] <humphreybc> eek
[20:59] <humphreybc> tough choices
[20:59] <thorwil> "Getting Started with Ubuntu"
[20:59] <humphreybc> I like "Getting Started with Ubuntu"
[20:59] <wolter> vish, ok
[20:59] <IlyaHaykinson> what language does Canonical use for it?
[20:59] <humphreybc> so, "Getting Started with Ubuntu 10.04"
[20:59] <IlyaHaykinson> in their help screens etc?
[20:59] <jaminday> humphreybc: yeah it doesn't classify people as beginners or not
[20:59] <vish> guys , stop repeating "Ubuntu" in *every* line.. either The title has Ubuntu or the Subtitle , pick one
[20:59] <humphreybc> jaminday: totally, it just says "you are new to ubuntu, read this"
[20:59] <wolter> I would go for a proper name
[20:59] <thorwil> still gives people an idea if it for them or neot
[20:59] <wolter> like "The Ubuntu Manual"
[21:00] <wolter> getting started with ubnutu sounds too generic
[21:00] <humphreybc> how do you mean wolter?
[21:00] <jaminday> what about just "The Ubuntu Manual: Getting Started"
[21:00] <voxwoman> the Ubuntu Manual isn't generic?
[21:00] <thorwil> wolter: how is Ubuntu Manual not generic?
[21:00] <thorwil> wolter: even more, i think it implies a big and deep thing
[21:00] <humphreybc> nah jaminday that sort of suggests that we've written a manual on how to use our manual...
[21:00] <voxwoman> I also expect something called the Ubuntu Manual to be an text for advanced users.
[21:00] <wolter> thorwil, humphreybc: we need a name to identify the manual.. a sticky name
[21:00] <humphreybc> okay wait wait hold up
[21:00] <humphreybc> so
[21:00] <jaminday> humphreybc: yes true...
[21:01] <humphreybc> "The Ubuntu Manual" what points are for this? We already have publicity with this name?
[21:01] <wolter> voxwoman, manuals... as the ones that come in with products of every category, are not meant for advanced users
[21:01] <humphreybc> we need to do some fors and against here
[21:01]  * vish notices the manual meeting chat moves nearly as fast as the #ubuntu room o.0
[21:01] <wolter> haha
[21:01] <wolter> good
[21:01] <humphreybc> vish: we're a high stress environment
[21:02] <humphreybc> okay
[21:02] <voxwoman> vish: we'
[21:02] <humphreybc> so give me some "FORS" for using "The Ubuntu Manual"
[21:02]  * thorwil has about 13 minutes left
[21:02] <voxwoman> 're being productive*
[21:02] <humphreybc> 1) It's already well known
[21:02] <wolter> +1
[21:02] <KelvinGardiner> +1
[21:02] <humphreybc> 2) It sort of suggests it covers everything
[21:02] <wolter> 2) It is sticky
[21:02] <humphreybc> but is that a good thing?
[21:02] <wolter> yes...
[21:02] <humphreybc> (covering everything)
[21:02] <vish> voxwoman: yeah , but its 2:30am here , was a bit tought to follow ;)
[21:02] <wolter> oh well, every basic thing
[21:02] <vish> though*
[21:02] <thorwil> not if it doesn't cover everything
[21:02] <vish> tough*
[21:03] <humphreybc> okay, we're going to vote
[21:03] <wolter> i say its good that the name is sticky so people can recommend it to others without having them forget
[21:03] <IlyaHaykinson> i second the Ubuntu Manual.. it's a reasonable, short compromise
[21:03] <jaminday> +1 from me
[21:03] <wolter> wait for the voting section...
[21:03] <voxwoman> IMO, TUM does not conve "friendly, inclusive and the other emotional things that I've heard you guys talk about this week.
[21:04] <wolter> so mootbot counts the votes
[21:04] <humphreybc> So, if you like the name, vote FOR it, if you don't, vote AGAINST. the two names up for contention are "The Ubuntu Manual" and "Getting Started with Ubuntu 10.04"
[21:04] <jaminday> wolter: sorry itchy trigger finger
[21:04] <wolter> haha
[21:04] <humphreybc> okay, so everyone got that? there will be TWO options to choose from
[21:04] <wolter> you can kill somebody with one of those
[21:04] <wolter> roger
[21:04] <humphreybc> [VOTE] "The Ubuntu Manual"
[21:04] <MootBot> Please vote on:  "The Ubuntu Manual".
[21:04] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[21:04] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-manual
[21:04] <wolter> +1
[21:04] <MootBot> +1 received from wolter. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[21:04] <humphreybc> -1
[21:04] <MootBot> -1 received from humphreybc. 1 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 0
[21:04] <waltmenz> +1
[21:04] <thorwil> -1
[21:04] <MootBot> +1 received from waltmenz. 2 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[21:04] <KelvinGardiner> +1
[21:04] <MootBot> -1 received from thorwil. 2 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 0
[21:04] <voxwoman> -1
[21:04] <MootBot> +1 received from KelvinGardiner. 3 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[21:04] <vish> +1
[21:04] <MootBot> -1 received from voxwoman. 3 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 0
[21:05] <tacantara> +1
[21:05] <MootBot> +1 received from vish. 4 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[21:05] <MootBot> +1 received from tacantara. 5 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[21:05] <ubuntujenkins> +1
[21:05] <MootBot> +1 received from ubuntujenkins. 6 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[21:05] <jaminday> 0
[21:05] <jaminday> +0
[21:05] <MootBot> Abstention received from jaminday. 6 for, 3 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
[21:05] <IlyaHaykinson> +0
[21:05] <MootBot> Abstention received from IlyaHaykinson. 6 for, 3 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 3
[21:05] <humphreybc> everyone voted?
[21:05] <humphreybc> [ENDVOTE]
[21:05] <MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 3 against. 2 abstained. Total: 3
[21:05] <humphreybc> okay so 3 for that one
[21:05] <humphreybc> now
[21:06] <humphreybc> [VOTE] "Getting Started with Ubuntu 10.04"
[21:06] <MootBot> Please vote on:  "Getting Started with Ubuntu 10.04".
[21:06] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[21:06] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-manual
[21:06] <humphreybc> +1
[21:06] <MootBot> +1 received from humphreybc. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[21:06] <thorwil> +1
[21:06] <wolter> -1
[21:06] <MootBot> +1 received from thorwil. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[21:06] <MootBot> -1 received from wolter. 2 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[21:06] <voxwoman> +1
[21:06] <IlyaHaykinson> +0
[21:06] <ubuntujenkins> -1
[21:06] <vish> +1
[21:06] <MootBot> +1 received from voxwoman. 3 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[21:06] <KelvinGardiner> +1
[21:06] <waltmenz> -1
[21:06] <MootBot> +1 received from vish. 4 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[21:06] <MootBot> Abstention received from IlyaHaykinson. 4 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
[21:06] <tacantara> +1
[21:06] <MootBot> -1 received from ubuntujenkins. 4 for, 2 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
[21:06] <jaminday> +0
[21:06] <MootBot> +1 received from KelvinGardiner. 5 for, 2 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
[21:06] <MootBot> -1 received from waltmenz. 5 for, 3 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
[21:06] <MootBot> +1 received from tacantara. 6 for, 3 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
[21:06] <MootBot> Abstention received from jaminday. 6 for, 3 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 3
[21:06] <humphreybc> oh for christ
[21:06] <IlyaHaykinson> oh great.
[21:06] <voxwoman> LOL
[21:06] <wolter> people are double voting here...
[21:06] <humphreybc> that's cute
[21:06] <wolter> ok.
[21:06] <jaminday> hehe
[21:06] <vish> lol!
[21:06] <humphreybc> [ENDVOTE]
[21:06] <MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 3 against. 2 abstained. Total: 3
[21:06] <wolter> lets do this: suggest the title you want (if its not TUM or GSWU)
[21:07] <vish> hmm , i voted both :/
[21:07] <voxwoman> How about "Getting started with Ubuntu: The Ubuntu Manual"
[21:07] <humphreybc> nooooooooo
[21:07] <IlyaHaykinson> "Using Ubuntu"
[21:07] <tacantara> Oops. Working off small screen today
[21:07] <thorwil> humphreybc: hit the list with that and move on?
[21:07] <voxwoman> yes
[21:07] <wolter> and then whoever is with TUM votes +1 and whoever is with GSWU votes -1
[21:07] <humphreybc> yeah okay I think we should move on and move this to the mailing list
[21:07] <wolter> i can hear vish already
[21:07] <humphreybc> there a few other people who aren't here who might like to have a say
[21:07] <wolter> (don't repeat ubuntu)
[21:07] <wolter> it does sound saturated
[21:07]  * IlyaHaykinson agrees with moving it to the mailing list.
[21:08] <wolter> ok then
[21:08] <voxwoman> +1
[21:08] <humphreybc> I'll email the mailing list and put down some rules, then we'll move on
[21:08] <humphreybc> cool
[21:08] <vish> +1
[21:08] <humphreybc> [TOPIC] Handling screenshots
[21:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  Handling screenshots
[21:08] <humphreybc> now this will be fun
[21:08] <wolter> ok
[21:08] <IlyaHaykinson> i think the docs team has a recommendation on the technical specs
[21:08]  * vish might fall asleep on the keyboard any moment Zzz...
[21:08] <humphreybc> dutchie found this yesterday: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserInterfaceFreeze
[21:08] <IlyaHaykinson> something like 800x600, 8-bit
[21:08] <thorwil> first: do not rescale screenshots
[21:08] <humphreybc> March 4th is when we can start taking the screenshots
[21:08] <wolter> i'd say 1. set a standard resolution 2. use the standard lucid theme
[21:08] <thorwil> every pixel must stay
[21:09] <thorwil> wolter: everything on default is a given, i think
[21:09] <vish> +1 to pixels
[21:09] <wolter> 8bit?
[21:09] <humphreybc> well in that case we'll be taking stuff in a virtual box so we can adjust the res properly
[21:09] <thorwil> but all shots should be taken with the same display resolution
[21:09] <humphreybc> remember file size file size file size
[21:09] <wolter> of course
[21:09] <IlyaHaykinson> they found it was the best compromise between size and quality. i'm trying to find the link.
[21:10] <voxwoman> what graphics format? PNG?
[21:10] <wolter> i would say jpg
[21:10] <wolter> quality jpg
[21:10] <humphreybc> as an example, Pitivi, an *entire* video editing program, takes up 2.5mb
[21:10] <thorwil> sources should be png
[21:10] <vish> wolter: no , why not png?
[21:10] <wolter> because png is always too big i think
[21:10] <wolter> i wouldn't know for sure
[21:10] <thorwil> should be possible to use PDF jpg conversion
[21:10] <humphreybc> isn't png the best for size?
[21:10] <vish> wolter: hmm , use it as the source
[21:10] <voxwoman> JPG is lossy and can look really bad in PDF.
[21:10] <vish> humphreybc: yes
[21:10] <vish> no
[21:10] <wolter> voxwoman, it has different levels of quality
[21:10] <humphreybc> I think pngs are the way to go
[21:11] <thorwil> input for pdf creation: png
[21:11] <humphreybc> everyone has told me that
[21:11] <vish> humphreybc: oops , the size is bigger , but better quality
[21:11] <wolter> ok, then i vote for pg
[21:11] <wolter> png
[21:11] <thorwil> result in pdf: jpg
[21:11] <humphreybc> yeah I think png for screenshots
[21:11] <humphreybc> output can be jpg or whatever
[21:11] <humphreybc> we also need to decide how often we're going to use screenshots
[21:11] <wolter> humphreybc, could we later discuss if the manual should be in pdf default or html?
[21:11] <wolter> I'm beginning to think html is better
[21:11] <humphreybc> we can only use them when they are _ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY_
[21:11] <wolter> and pdf for printing
[21:12] <vish> humphreybc: what are the places which would really need a screenshot?
[21:12] <humphreybc> we can do both wolter, it's not a problem
[21:12] <humphreybc> well, installation
[21:12] <vish> humphreybc: installation? why
[21:12] <humphreybc> demonstrating stuff like the wireless network connection dialog thing
[21:12] <wolter> and give an option to 'skip pictures on printing'
[21:12] <IlyaHaykinson> gnome documentation recommends: PNG, max width 510 px
[21:12] <voxwoman> If it takes you a long paragraph to describe where on the screen you need to click, a screenshot is better
[21:12] <wolter> ok then
[21:12] <IlyaHaykinson> as per: http://library.gnome.org/devel/gdp-style-guide/stable/screenshots.html.en
[21:12] <humphreybc> wolter: i'm not sure if that's possible with PDF
[21:13] <wolter> i think we should have 16:9 screenshots with 510 width
[21:13] <humphreybc> okay so I figured we'd probably have 30 screenshots
[21:13] <humphreybc> in 30 languages
[21:13] <humphreybc> so that's 900 screenshots we need to get....
[21:13] <thorwil> from now on, vish will have to represent me (except in matters regarding the title)
[21:13] <thorwil> cya!
[21:13] <wolter> and screenshots should be focused on windows
[21:13] <wolter> maybe
[21:13] <humphreybc> chow thorwil
[21:13] <wolter> hahaha
[21:13] <wolter> gb
[21:13] <vish> thorwil: hey! i'm half asleep :s
[21:13] <IlyaHaykinson> aha: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TakingScreenshots
[21:13] <humphreybc> but yeah, 30 screenshots in 30 languages = 900. That is going to be a real mission.
[21:14] <humphreybc> so what about screenshots of just windows only?
[21:14] <vish> humphreybc: stay away from screenshot as much as possible, it makes it easier to translators
[21:14] <IlyaHaykinson> I recommend that we appoint a screenshot leader, and a screenshot team.
[21:14] <vish> s/to/for
[21:14] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: yup we will be doing that for sure
[21:15] <IlyaHaykinson> the leader and the team are responsible for taking all the screenshorts. the leader is responsible for editing and consistency.
[21:15] <ubuntujenkins> have one screenshot of the desktop at the start for people to refer to
[21:15] <IlyaHaykinson> within the team they share a single virtual machine instance configured with the same username, same settings, etc.
[21:15] <humphreybc> ie say we're giving a demonstration of how to connect to the wireless, we don't want the whole desktop when the focal point is the wireless drop down box thing from the panel
[21:15] <jaminday> vish: sure is probably easier for translators but nobody wants to open a manual that is all text
[21:15] <IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: correct; just need the relevant menu.
[21:15] <humphreybc> okay cool
[21:15] <humphreybc> so does that guide that you posted before
[21:16] <IlyaHaykinson> i recommend that initially, we plug the same (standard, English-language) screenshots into all the localized vesions.
[21:16] <humphreybc> does that output the whole screen? and we'd have to manually crop?
[21:16] <IlyaHaykinson> then we can do a second pass, as the translations are finished, and localize the screenshots too.
[21:16] <vish> jaminday: good point ,but we shouldnt get carried away :)
[21:16] <humphreybc> the branch is going to be huuuuuuuuuge
[21:16] <jaminday> vish: agreed
[21:16] <humphreybc> we might need separate branches for all this
[21:17] <humphreybc> man this is going to be hard
[21:17] <humphreybc> righto
[21:17] <humphreybc> so, points of action
[21:17] <jaminday> yeah i think separate branch for images
[21:17] <jaminday> if it's possible
[21:17] <IlyaHaykinson> the Windows 95 manual (see, i refer to it again) has almost no whole-desktop screenshots.
[21:17] <humphreybc> 1) appoint a screenshot leader and a team
[21:17] <wolter> i think we sould REALLY limit screenshots to parts where they are mandatory
[21:17] <IlyaHaykinson> most are probably of a roughly 300x300 pixel area
[21:17] <humphreybc> 2) create a new branch off the main trunk branch for screenshots
[21:17] <voxwoman> I almost never display the entire desktop.
[21:17] <humphreybc> 3) be very very very selective when choosing screenshots
[21:18] <voxwoman> it's only dialog boxes and menus (with possibly a little desktop to provide context if needed)
[21:18] <humphreybc> everyone agree with those points of action?
[21:18] <jaminday> yep agreed so far
[21:18] <wolter> yes
[21:18] <voxwoman> +1
[21:18] <KelvinGardiner> yes
[21:18] <humphreybc> okay any more to add?
[21:18] <IlyaHaykinson> yeah
[21:18] <IlyaHaykinson> 4) use a consistent virtual machine image
[21:19] <IlyaHaykinson> 5) do not start until after beta
[21:19] <humphreybc> after our beta?
[21:19] <humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserInterfaceFreeze
[21:19] <humphreybc> that's on march 4th
[21:19] <IlyaHaykinson> no, ubuntu beta.
[21:19] <humphreybc> (our beta is on the same day as ubuntu beta)
[21:19] <IlyaHaykinson> ah. well.
[21:19] <IlyaHaykinson> ok.
[21:19] <humphreybc> we can start at the user interface freeze
[21:19] <humphreybc> i reckon
[21:20] <humphreybc> we're going to need as much time as possible
[21:20] <IlyaHaykinson> probably.
[21:20] <voxwoman> Are graphics imported into the document or embedded? If imported, we can use placeholders (early shots) now, for layout and formatting and update later.
[21:20] <humphreybc> because getting all the localized screenshots will be a real mission
[21:20] <humphreybc> voxwoman: I think layout/formatting can be fixed up fairly quickly. I'm not sure about the details of screenshots in LaTeX, godbyk isn't around at the moment
[21:21] <jaminday> voxwoman: that is a good point
[21:21] <jaminday> it could save time later
[21:21] <wolter> voxwoman, they're compiled with the manual
[21:21] <IlyaHaykinson> i think perhaps we should do one or two test screenshots -- one large (full-desktop) one, and one small (single window).
[21:21] <wolter> ... at compile tie
[21:21] <wolter> time*
[21:21] <IlyaHaykinson> maybe godbyk can be in charge of this test?
[21:21] <humphreybc> yup
[21:21] <humphreybc> okay i'll get godbyk on to it
[21:21] <humphreybc> :)
[21:21] <KelvinGardiner> voxwoman: the screenshots are imported at compile time and embedded in the pdf. I place holder can be used.
[21:22] <humphreybc> cool
[21:22] <KelvinGardiner> Maybe a blank image or a big red cross.
[21:22] <humphreybc> moving on?
[21:22] <wolter> moving on
[21:22] <humphreybc> [TOPIC] Change to beta release date
[21:22] <MootBot> New Topic:  Change to beta release date
[21:22] <humphreybc> okay so basically all I did was push back our release 3 days
[21:22] <humphreybc> we originally had our beta on march 15th, I moved it to march 18th because that's when the Lucid beta is out
[21:22] <wolter> ok
[21:23] <jaminday> fair enough
[21:23] <humphreybc> nothing to talk about there :)
[21:23] <KelvinGardiner> ok
[21:23] <wolter> i think we can do it
[21:23] <humphreybc> [TOPIC] Lucid timeline
[21:23] <MootBot> New Topic:  Lucid timeline
[21:23] <humphreybc> (for those following the agenda, that link should go here: http://humphreybc.homeip.net/files/lucidtimeline.jpg)
[21:23] <humphreybc> so, yeah, look at this http://humphreybc.homeip.net/files/lucidtimeline.jpg
[21:23] <humphreybc> it will be useful for us :)
[21:24] <humphreybc> and that's that for that topic xD
[21:24]  * humphreybc realises that banshee is now playing "star wars imperial march" as it's on shuffle
[21:25]  * humphreybc "The death star will be completed in several hours, lord sidious. Good."
[21:25] <humphreybc> okay
[21:25] <humphreybc> now
[21:25] <humphreybc> [TOPIC] Writing freeze
[21:25] <MootBot> New Topic:  Writing freeze
[21:25] <humphreybc> we need to freeze the writing at some point rather soon
[21:25] <humphreybc> so the translations can catch up
[21:25] <IlyaHaykinson> I recommend the freeze by our beta.
[21:25] <humphreybc> yup
[21:25] <wolter> yes
[21:25] <humphreybc> that's what I was thinking
[21:25] <voxwoman> yes
[21:25] <wolter> so, move on?
[21:25] <jaminday> agreed - there is still a lot of editing to be done
[21:26] <humphreybc> that gives them over a month
[21:26] <humphreybc> [TOPIC] alpha review: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+milestone/alpha-release
[21:26] <MootBot> New Topic:  alpha review: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+milestone/alpha-release
[21:26] <wolter> i can translate spanish
[21:26] <humphreybc> so if you see under "blueprints" 5 Started, 1 Slow progress, 5 Good progress, 1 Needs Code Review
[21:26] <humphreybc> we have basically 10 days till alpha
[21:26] <humphreybc> we need to change those "slow progress" and "started" blueprints into "good progress" and "needs code review"
[21:27] <wolter> i agree with that alpha review
[21:27] <jaminday> agreed
[21:27] <humphreybc> So if basically just update your blueprints
[21:27] <humphreybc> for your chapters etc
[21:27] <wolter> ok
[21:27] <humphreybc> anything you're assigned to you need to make sure the progress is up to date
[21:27] <wolter> will do
[21:27] <humphreybc> ... aaaaaaaand that's it I believe
[21:27] <humphreybc> another 90 minute meeting
[21:28] <humphreybc> seems to be the trend for our team!
[21:28] <voxwoman> quick question:
[21:28] <humphreybc> any other questions feedback?
[21:28] <humphreybc> yup
[21:28] <KelvinGardiner> yes
[21:28] <voxwoman> is there any place where a draft PDF of the whole manual may be found?
[21:28] <humphreybc> there sure is
[21:28] <IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: i think we need to be more reaslistic. right now chapter 2 is making no progress, not "slow progress", for example.
[21:28] <humphreybc> voxwoman: here is a draft, but it's a bit old. i'll put up the latest one on my server right now
[21:28] <humphreybc> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual
[21:29] <voxwoman> thanks
[21:29] <humphreybc> voxwoman: one sec
[21:29] <wolter> ok, ill check out now then?
[21:29] <humphreybc> wolter: sure you can head off
[21:29] <IlyaHaykinson> and the hardware chapter is not making fast progress, either, despite 4 people on it now.
[21:29] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: yeah true. what is happening with those two chapters now?
[21:29] <wolter> good-bye people, thanks for attending!
[21:29] <voxwoman> bye!
[21:29] <IlyaHaykinson> chap2: you mentioned that someone was going to take it on? i forgot who.
[21:29] <vish> nite all
[21:29] <KelvinGardiner> I have a number of small bugs / questions across several chapters. Is it best to use the mailing list or a large bug report. I would think the mailing list.
[21:30] <voxwoman> I thoguht you were giving me some of chapter 2
[21:30] <voxwoman> But I'm worried that I won't get up to speed in time
[21:30] <IlyaHaykinson> voxwoman: indeed. but i gave you a smaller part, as you asked. i meant about the larger part of the chapter.
[21:30] <voxwoman> ah gotcha
[21:30] <humphreybc> voxwoman: humphreybc.homeip.net/files/main.pdf
[21:30] <humphreybc> oops
[21:31] <humphreybc> http://humphreybc.homeip.net/files/main.pdf
[21:31] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://humphreybc.homeip.net/files/main.pdf
[21:31] <tacantara>  I'm also on chapter 2 writing
[21:31] <humphreybc> that's the latest revision, 176
[21:31] <IlyaHaykinson> tacantara: ah, _you_ are the one on chap2, cool.
[21:32] <humphreybc> okay well tacantara, voxwoman, unfortunately you guys have a hard job to do as you've got to pick up late where the other defectors left off
[21:32] <IlyaHaykinson> first, i recommend that everyone, for every chapter, post an outline on the wiki.
[21:32] <IlyaHaykinson> i already did that for chapter 3 and 4
[21:32] <voxwoman> I like that lynx drawing!
[21:32] <humphreybc> voxwoman: yea wolter drew that
[21:32] <tacantara> Did some stuff a few days ago, more to follow
[21:32] <IlyaHaykinson> see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Blueprints/DefaultApps and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Blueprints/Hardware
[21:32] <IlyaHaykinson> but i would like to have everyone post their outline on a similar page.
[21:33] <humphreybc> righto
[21:33] <IlyaHaykinson> it'll help ensure that the detailed outline is consistent, logical, and complete.
[21:33] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: could you email the list and tell them that?
[21:33] <IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: will do.
[21:33] <humphreybc> sweet thanks
[21:33] <humphreybc> cool well that's probably all I guess
[21:33] <jaminday> ok all i've gotta run as well. humphreybc: keep me posted RE any chapters needing editing and I'll remind the team
[21:33] <humphreybc> right catchya later
[21:33] <voxwoman> It was lovely "meeting" all of you :)
[21:34] <jaminday> ciao!
[21:34] <humphreybc> so everyone just keep an eye on the mailing list
[21:34] <humphreybc> voxwoman: how are you going to get the branch etc?
[21:34] <voxwoman> I am working with Ilya on this
[21:34] <humphreybc> have you got ubuntu installed and bzr set up and all that or do you still have to do that? or are you going to write stuff and give it to Ilya to put into the tex
[21:35] <voxwoman> in order to get stuff done in a timely fashion, I'm probably writing in word (shudder) or ascii text files and sending it to Ilya.
[21:35] <humphreybc> sweet
[21:35] <humphreybc> that's all good
[21:35] <voxwoman> I haven't ever touched LaTeX before
[21:35] <IlyaHaykinson> i put a virtual machine online, by the way, in case anyone wants it.
[21:35] <voxwoman> and it's been ages since I've done troff
[21:35] <humphreybc> after alpha we're going to be running an "ubuntu manual learning day"
[21:35] <voxwoman> cool.
[21:35] <IlyaHaykinson> http://www.netapt.com/~ilyah/ubuntumanual/
[21:35] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.netapt.com/~ilyah/ubuntumanual/
[21:36] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: cool
[21:36] <IlyaHaykinson> feel free to download. username is joe, and password is "joe"
[21:36] <voxwoman> What I  want to do if it's OK, is read thru what you've got so far and give you some feedback.
[21:36] <humphreybc> so voxwoman we'll basically be holding "classes" on latex, bzr, ubuntu, screenshot taking etc
[21:36] <voxwoman> excellent. I need those.
[21:36] <humphreybc> cool
[21:36] <humphreybc> yep feedback is good
[21:36] <humphreybc> probably email it to the mailing list is best
[21:36] <voxwoman> OK
[21:37] <humphreybc> cool
[21:37] <humphreybc> right well thanks for showing up everyone
[21:37] <humphreybc> #endmeeting
[21:37] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 15:37.
[21:37] <voxwoman> bye all
[21:37] <IlyaHaykinson> ok, post meeting, quick question
[21:38] <IlyaHaykinson> i'm working on the Evolution question right now
[21:38] <humphreybc> yup
[21:38] <IlyaHaykinson> was going to cover typical connection methods for email.
[21:38] <IlyaHaykinson> and can't decide whether to do only IMAP and POP, or also do Exchange
[21:39] <humphreybc> hmm
[21:39] <humphreybc> I don't know much about exchange
[21:39] <IlyaHaykinson> on one hand, Evolution supports Exchange, and Exchange is very very common in corp environments.
[21:39] <IlyaHaykinson> on the other hand, most home users will not have it.
[21:39] <humphreybc> i've only ever used POP/IMAP with clients, but now I just use gmail
[21:39] <humphreybc> right
[21:39] <humphreybc> well I would be inclined to give it a miss
[21:40] <IlyaHaykinson> i guess we should have discussed home vs work in our "target audience" discussion...
[21:40] <KelvinGardiner> Can you cover Pop and IMAP and link to exchange in the community docs.
[21:40] <humphreybc> possibly, but I think if they have ubuntu in their workplace they'll probably have someone around to help with it
[21:40] <IlyaHaykinson> alright. skipping other options for now then. will leave Exchange etc till a fugure vesion.
[21:40] <IlyaHaykinson> i'll mention that there are other ways to connect to email, and to check docs for that :)
[21:40] <humphreybc> oh yeah IlyaHaykinson just link to the community docs like KelvinGardiner said
[21:42] <IlyaHaykinson> no need for community docs, i think it's actually described in the official evolution help.
[21:50] <humphreybc> oh fantastic
[21:50] <humphreybc> right i've put up the summary on the wiki