[01:53] Hey, humphreybc. I won't be able to make it to tomorrow's meeting; I got roped into helping a friend move. I'll try to write up a summary of my recent work for you, though. [02:11] haha [02:11] no probs kevin [02:11] anything you want to say etc in the meeting, either email it to me and i'll say it on your behalf, or put it on the wiki somewhere [02:12] k [02:12] this week I've spent most my time working on getting the translations going (TeX-wise). [02:17] hey humphreybc [02:18] i think its 99% probable that i will attend the meeting tomorrow [02:18] i say 99% because i don't really know whether my mother will create plans or not [02:18] but otherwise, i will be there [02:18] also, as I have returned from my trip, i am know able to work again [02:19] also, i installed ground control [02:19] and its great, but I don't see a "pull" button [02:21] wolter: Martin is going to implement pull support soon [02:21] for the meantime you just have to commit and push your changes, delete your code and then get it again under a different "work name" [02:22] oh nice [02:22] yeah, and i hope that the pull button is aside of the 'delete code' button [02:23] anyway, brb === dutchie_ is now known as dutchie [20:02] Hi [20:02] meeting now? [20:02] in #ubuntu-meeting [20:02] oh ok [20:10] righto [20:10] so now we should be in here :) [20:10] present members, please report [20:11] ! [20:11] hello [20:11] hello [20:11] * IlyaHaykinson waves [20:11] cool cool [20:11] right [20:11] #startmeeting [20:11] Meeting started at 14:11. The chair is humphreybc. [20:11] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [20:11] OK... is this the right place? [20:11] yes [20:11] [TOPIC] Target Audience [20:11] New Topic: Target Audience [20:12] Good [20:12] I suppose firstly I should say hi and thanks for coming :P [20:12] Of course :) [20:12] This new schedule is a lot better [20:12] now, onto business! the target audience, we need to decide on one [20:12] hi [20:12] sorry im late [20:12] To whomever may correspond, if you are lost, follow this meeting plan https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings [20:12] rachaelb: no probs [20:12] I'm baaack [20:13] target audience i guess are win users who dont know anything about linux apartfrom the name [20:13] so this is what dutchie wants me to say about the target audience, he sees it as someone like his mum - someone who just wants to get things done, print something, email, go on the internet, view photos. Her computer is a means to an end [20:13] my thoughts: new computer users; novice users [20:14] I agree with Ilya [20:14] So, my idea of the target audience is anybody who has used a computer before but not ubuntu, so he knows how to do basic stuff and move around a bit at least [20:14] also: people comfortable with day-to-day tasks in windows or macos, and who want to try Ubuntu (or need it for some other reason) [20:14] So we have to handhold them thru installing the OS, configuring their system and getting functional? [20:14] I agree with dutchie: I think we should be targeting people who want to use their Ubuntu computer to "get things done" - which mainly means people like what IlyaHaykinson said, new computer users [20:14] I think dutchie's example is great [20:14] basic mouse/keyboard skills are a must to even get to the manual [20:15] yes [20:15] i've typed up a longer description: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/StyleGuide -- in the section "writing for newbies" [20:15] As a noob, I think wolter hit the nail on the head [20:15] voxwoman: well sort of, we have a step by step installation example, and yes we will provide fairly detailed steps when it comes to basic stuff. I think the emphasis and the majority of the manual should dwell on the simple things [20:15] "In general, assume that a user does not know their monitor from their computer, that the user does not understand the difference between memory and a hard drive, and that the user does not intuitively pick up these things unless we point them out. [20:15] However, also assume that a user is very interested in accomplishing certain tasks. A user wants to do the very basics on their computer: browse the Web, read and compose email, use instant messaging, create, manage, exchange, and edit various files (documents, images, audio, video). [20:15] "We should assume that people have the skills of using the keyboard and mouse, and that they are generally aware of the multi-window desktop interface. " [20:15] IlyaHaykinson: that sounds like my mother [20:16] humphreybc: good! i was modeling it after my experience with my grandfather using Vista [20:16] hi all apologies for being late - was having pidgin issues [20:16] but hang on, if they "do not know their monitor from their computer" how will they "have the skills of using the keyboard and mouse?" [20:16] i know users who can handle keyboard and mouse, bet get confused with windows [20:16] jaminday: no worries [20:16] humphreybc: i mean terminology wise [20:16] my wife continually refers to the monitor as the computer, and the computer as the brain. [20:16] well my mum doesn't even know how to turn off her computer or turn it on - she reaches for the button on the monitor, instead of the "box on the floor" [20:16] I haven't used Ubuntu yet, is this a windows interface or a command line (or both)? [20:16] haha [20:17] but she obviously knows how to use them all. [20:17] voxwoman: it's neither, it's a complete new operating system. Think how Mac OS X is compared to windows. [20:17] voxwoman: it's somewhere between Mac OS and Windows in its interface. [20:17] I didn't mean windows as MS Windows... I meant a GUI interface as opposed to a CLI [20:18] GUI [20:18] Thanks [20:18] (it does have a CLI but we're not going to talk about that in our manual, too complicated) [20:18] i guess readers younger than 16 are unlikely. even more older than 70 [20:18] but where would be a likely peak? [20:18] my grandfather was 80 when he got his computer setup up, thorwil [20:18] i don't think age matters. [20:19] thorwil, yes, I think you're right about the ages [20:19] i think for an audience, skillset is probably key [20:19] IlyaHaykinson: there are always excpetions [20:19] Don't think age - think experience level [20:19] I agree with voxwoman and IlyaHaykinson [20:19] It is the skills that matter, not the time on this planet [20:19] remember that the target audience is about design decisions [20:19] and there should be something listed in the preface about what the reader is expected to already know and what we are going to explain to them [20:20] I personally don't think we should talk about how to use their hardware (mouse/keyboard) too much... because it might be different for each person and we don't want to stray too far away from what we know. Obviously keyboard buttons and things are okay to talk about, because they are generic - but the location of the power off button? Like how detailed will we need to be when talking about how to turn it back on when they've tu [20:20] ah voxwoman good idea [20:20] they would have got hold of ubuntu some how or found the manual so they probably would have some keyboard and mouse skills [20:20] okay [20:20] humphreybc: we need to cover the keyboard and mouse because there are preference panels for those, and because of ibus settings etc. [20:20] the more specific the audience, the better for design. this doesn't stop anyone not matching the definition from using the manual [20:20] but of course we don't need to cover specific keystrokes etc [20:21] okay so, target audience... people coming from windows or mac with basic computer knowledge who are used to just "getting things done" and for them, computers are a means to an end. [20:21] again, as i wrote in the style guide, "We should assume that people have the skills of using the keyboard and mouse, and that they are generally aware of the multi-window desktop interface. " [20:21] so we assume that we don't need to teach them about a cursor etc [20:21] or what a button or a menu is. but that we need to be very clear on what button or menu to click. [20:21] what do ya'll think about that definition above? [20:21] what I've done in the past is have (again, in the preface) a list of conventions that sometimes gets very detailed about how to use pointing devices and text input, and more importantly how we refer to them in the rest of the text [20:22] so like a "key" if you will [20:22] right? [20:22] humphreybc: it's vague [20:22] humphreybc: i agree with your definition, though users can just be new to computers in general, and don't know windows from mac. there are still a lot of people like that in the world. [20:22] thorwil: well to be honest i'm not sure how more defined we're going to get - Ubuntu is designed to appeal to a wide market of people [20:23] Hmmm....glossary? [20:23] either way, i think we're all saying the same thing basically. [20:23] we just need to put it in words [20:23] also, i strongly agree with voxwoman's idea about adding a "conventions used in this book" type of a section [20:23] yeah that is a good idea [20:23] it'll also be a place to point out our use of the "!!" for advanced / warnings etc [20:23] I agree with voxwoman too. [20:24] [VOTE] "conventions used in this book" section [20:24] Please vote on: "conventions used in this book" section. [20:24] Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to MootBot [20:24] E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-manual [20:24] this may sound dumb... but my mum is 81 and a complete linux convert :) however she doesnt want to have to wade thru loads of material to find something, she jsut wants to be able to do it [20:24] +1 [20:24] +1 received from humphreybc. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1 [20:24] +1 [20:24] +1 received from ubuntujenkins. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2 [20:24] +1 [20:24] +1 [20:24] +1 received from jaminday. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3 [20:24] +1 received from voxwoman. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4 [20:24] +1 [20:24] +1 [20:24] +1 received from KelvinGardiner. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5 [20:24] +1 received from waltmenz. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6 [20:24] +1 [20:24] +1 [20:24] +1 received from IlyaHaykinson. 7 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 7 [20:24] +1 received from wolter. 8 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 8 [20:24] * vish just noticed meeting was here ! thanks wolter ;) [20:24] np :) [20:24] +1 [20:24] +1 received from tacantara. 9 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 9 [20:24] (to vote you can just say + 1 or - 1 = for and against) [20:25] anyone else like to vote? [20:25] but what's the desired and likely core group? the peak of the curve? male/female, around 30 years, or is there perhaps a wave above 60, actually? [20:25] [ENDVOTE] [20:25] Final result is 9 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 9 [20:25] rachaelb: there will be a contents page that can help with quick navigation [20:25] thorwil: i would not segment by gender or age. no need -- skillset and experience cross those boundaries. [20:26] and i don't think we need to write differently for different ages, either. [20:26] IlyaHaykinson: once again, it's about having a base for design decisions [20:26] sorry if i am not very active, but right now i am suffering from a 'wtf-nosebleed' [20:26] thorwil: how about you ask us some questions on what you need to know? [20:27] sorry... phone .... gotta go.... but please contact me (im on the list) re indexing and biographis etc if you need it :) [20:27] but [20:27] bye [20:27] * [20:27] ok [20:27] because many of us aren't design minded, and I think if you could ask some open questions we might be able to give you a more focused reply [20:27] humphreybc: if you imagine a set of charts refering to the audience, you would have on age chart. where would we expect peaks? [20:27] i say ~20 [20:28] because they're like the most active population computer-wise [20:28] * humphreybc googles ubuntu user average age [20:28] college-age students, and another peak 35-45. I am just completely guessing from my geek friends [20:28] in general, i would expect a 30-60 peak. people who've used computers for a while, but would like to move to a different operating system. [20:28] what's the most likely cultural background? what sites would they visit on the web ... [20:28] http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=8113928 [20:28] LINK received: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=8113928 [20:28] and as for college age students: they're less likely to read the manual, in my opinion. [20:28] and more likely to find a friend to ask. [20:29] true [20:29] ack [20:29] Boy, my guess was based on the demographic of userfriendly.org forum... LOL [20:29] also, people between 18-25 grew up with google, they'd google their answer before using a manual [20:29] You swold [20:29] whereas I feel older users might prefer to read a book styled help [20:29] Is the manual on the desktop? Should it be? [20:30] humphreybc: although googling their answer could now lead them to us... [20:30] i hope now you see the value of thinking about more specific groups :) [20:30] Oops mistype [20:30] voxwoman: It will never be on the desktop, nothing is on the desktop by default. but there should be a clear link visible somewhere [20:30] voxwoman: maybe it should, but it's unlikely to happen [20:30] i also wanted to point out (for the target audience topic) that probably users without basic keyboard/mouse knowledge will find out about ubuntu [20:31] well it's a tough one [20:31] wolter: if they'd be given a printout ... [20:31] without doing a tonne of research on who uses ubuntu, we can't really talk about graphs and charts without speculating [20:31] thorwil: my suggestion is to assume a slightly older (post-college-age) audience skew, no gender skew. that's probably the best we can do. [20:31] thats true [20:31] If this book is part of what's going to be used for installing Unbuntu on a VM/dual boot system they've already got, I think they will want to read the manual first. But I'm in the "old" demographic [20:31] Look at how many go to UF without googling first [20:31] wolter: but that what the user needed to get to the manual we don't need to tell him [20:32] good points thorwil [20:32] i drop my point :) [20:32] tacantara: I've always thought of our target audience being non geeky - ie, they probably wouldn't know about forums. [20:32] True [20:32] not that using the forums is geeky [20:32] humphreybc: I think that's a good assumption. [20:32] but i'm just saying, my mum would never actively look for help from the forums [20:32] i agree with humphrebc - without research these are difficult questions to answer properly [20:32] she doesn't even know what a forum is [20:33] IlyaHaykinson: i mainly brought up gender just so you think about men and women. anything from 30/70 to 50/50 split either way shouldn't make a difference for us [20:33] My mum calls me direct lol [20:33] thorwil: makes sense. [20:33] Does non geeky also mean less googling. [20:33] well not necessarily, google is pretty famous [20:33] non-geeky means they are more likely to use whatever comes up on the first page of results [20:34] i would like to suggest, unless there's actionable work on this topic, that we move on. [20:34] i feel like we generally have a good idea on our audience already [20:34] or that they'd rather ask somebody who knows about ubuntu, before looking it up [20:34] agrees with ilyahaykinson [20:34] thorwil: Are you happy with going off what you've heard here? [20:34] i think that before moving on, we should all vote on a descriptive text of the target audiecne [20:34] audience [20:34] so that every think is loud and clear [20:34] everything* [20:34] lol [20:34] a collection of what was mentioned should be good enough for now, yes :) [20:35] i think we'd be sitting here all day trying to fine tune a paragraph that actually describes our target audience [20:35] +1 [20:35] okay moving on [20:35] +1 [20:35] [VOTE] How/where/when will users come across our document? [20:35] Please vote on: How/where/when will users come across our document?. [20:35] Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to MootBot [20:35] E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-manual [20:35] wait [20:35] [ENDVOTE] [20:35] Final result is 0 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 0 [20:35] sorry it's still the morning [20:35] :) [20:35] [TOPIC] How/where/when will users come across our document? [20:35] New Topic: How/where/when will users come across our document? [20:36] 1. Ubuntu download page [20:36] 1) google, 2) ubuntu.com, if we are successful, 3) ubuntu distribution itself, if we are very successful [20:36] 2. User who helped install ubuntu [20:36] 2. Our website will probably have a download link eventually [20:36] 3. google [20:36] how hard is it to get on the cd? [20:36] ubuntujenkins: it's quite hard [20:36] ubuntujenkins: i think easy if quality is high, hard if quality is low. [20:36] it all depends on file size [20:36] ubuntujenkins, we just need to get canonical's love [20:36] it *should* be very easy [20:36] oh and quality ;) [20:36] humphreybc: could we have a domain for the manual? [20:37] yeah but they've got to cram a whole OS and a dozen applications into 700mb [20:37] right now i would say consistency, quality, and completeness are our main problems. [20:37] (lol, i am the only confirmed guest on the ubuntu manual meeting) [20:37] Is there anyway to turn this into online help as well as a book-style book? or is that beyond scope of the project? [20:37] Get LOCOs to help spread the word [20:37] thorwil: heh well, eventually. right now we need to get it finished first [20:37] The forum has a read this first thread in the beginners area. We should be linked from there. [20:37] (on facebook) [20:37] well, a download link in a prominent place is just as good as being included on the disk. [20:37] voxwoman: we can export to HTML, power of latex :) [20:37] what KelvinGardiner said [20:37] basically we will have it everywhere [20:37] IlyaHaykinson, not if the user doesn't have a good/constant internet connection [20:37] it won't be hard to fin [20:37] which is likely to happen [20:38] find* [20:38] yeah, even printedn on t-shirts! [20:38] heh [20:38] so the "where and how" are easy [20:38] er... that leaves the "when"? [20:38] It should be on the CD at a very high level under a /doc or /help directory [20:38] when - well, when they get ubuntu, when they download it, when they're thinking of downloading it but want to read something about it first, when their friend gives them a copy, when their grandson gives them a copy to read [20:39] humphreybc: the real question might be how they get to know about it [20:39] i think we should not have to worry about this topic until our manual is finished. [20:39] voxwoman: It will probably be in "example content" and linked from the panel and apps menu [20:39] i actually totally see the possibility where for 10.04 our manual is not really well known or included, but by 10.10 it's included on the disk etc. [20:39] Also we can have a slide in the installation slideshow [20:39] IlyaHaykinson: you're 100% right, there is still a huge chance that could happen [20:40] mainly because that way we can prove to users, and to canonical, that this is a valuable resource. [20:40] Sweet idea humphreybc [20:40] right now, i think nobody will take us seriously enough. [20:40] even if we don't get on the CD this time round, we're going to get a lot of downloads just from the publicity we've already received [20:40] they can't link to us from the install, or promise a spot on the disk, etc, until we have a finished product. [20:40] IlyaHaykinson, well, sites like digg have already a lot of people waiting for the manual [20:40] yup [20:40] IlyaHaykinson: true. this was about having an idea of context for how the manual should present itself [20:40] okay moving on to the next topic... [20:41] [TOPIC] What style/tone should we aim for, what should be the message both about our document and Ubuntu? [20:41] New Topic: What style/tone should we aim for, what should be the message both about our document and Ubuntu? [20:41] simple and clear [20:41] I guess welcoming [20:41] friendly yet professional :) [20:41] Ubuntu = super easy to use [20:41] voxwoman, +1 [20:41] I point people to the "Voice" section of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/StyleGuide [20:41] an aura of competence [20:41] solid, secure, trustworthy, capable [20:42] Ubuntu is empowering [20:42] yup [20:42] it helps you get shit done [20:42] *scuse my french [20:42] community spirit [20:42] I totally agree with IlyaHaykinson voice thing [20:42] it should encourage you about open source [20:42] thorwil, +1 [20:42] FOSS = awesome [20:43] it should also teach you about FOSS and Ubuntu, and how it will benefit YOU [20:43] humphreybc: i think maybe a good chunk of Chapter 10 can be about this? [20:43] Or think of Keir Thomas' style. A little witty, but to the point, with user testimonial [20:43] IlyaHaykinson: indeed [20:43] tacantara: the problem with witty is that we need to write to an international audience [20:43] IlyaHaykinson, humphreybc, i think that the wonders of FOSS should be introduced to earlier [20:43] this is a lot of emotional stuff - are we talking design or writing? [20:43] than chapter 10 [20:43] tacantara: I honestly think user testimonials are cheesy and infomercial like [20:43] voxwoman: design [20:44] ah... makes more sense now :) [20:44] voxwoman: not that writing can be decoupled [20:44] like, in the ~'what is ubuntu' part, explain that it is open source, and then give ashort paragraph about the glories of open source software [20:44] Eh, I see...it is all in the translation [20:44] translating "witty" is difficult. reading "witty" for people for whom english is not their first language (and we don't have a perfect translation) is going to be difficult. [20:44] (FOSS) [20:44] The doc team recommend not being witty [20:44] well, if I'm reading a manual, I am in there to find out how to do something. I don't much care about WHY. [20:44] yeah i'd avoid witty seeing as we're hoping to become "official" [20:44] yes, I think we should use more 'every-day' words [20:44] better risk dryness than appearing like clowns [20:44] this was a hard lesson for me to learn during my tech writing career. [20:44] Keir Thomas is independent [20:45] but keep it friendly and welcoming sans wit [20:45] righto, in agreement with that stuff? [20:45] i wonder if it could be "street" abit? [20:45] another point... avoiding marketing speak is important. [20:45] "street" will turn off your >40 people. [20:45] we need to not come off as selling Ubuntu or open source or Linux or whatever. [20:45] as much as possible. [20:45] outside of well-defined sections (prologue, chapter 10) [20:45] i think voxwoman has good feedback to provide [20:46] thorwil: can you elaborate? [20:46] now i recall she was the one who reported in to our mailing lists and said that she had 20 years of experience [20:46] IlyaHaykinson: I've always wondered why you think this is a good idea? [20:46] Yes. I'm 52, and a grandmother and I've been writing hardware (and some software) manuals for about 20 year or so. I was an EE before that. [20:46] yes, i don't understand the "street" concept much either [20:46] Why would a little bit of "look how awesome ubuntu is!" turn off people? [20:47] because providing our own judgment is a bit insulting to people when they are reading [20:47] I think voxwoman friendly and professional point was a good one. [20:47] voxwoman: probably right [20:47] IlyaHaykinson: ahh okay, so judgement, gotcha [20:47] humphreybc, i think it sounds unprofessional and infantile [20:47] if you say "the Ubuntu desktop is excellent" and the user thinks it sucks and they barely tolerate it, you are not connecting with them. [20:47] "Look how asweome" soemthing is is marketing stuff, generally [20:47] so i say sing the praises, but only when clearly delineated. [20:47] Yup so we should avoid personal opinion [20:47] i agree with IlyaHaykinson [20:47] strike "street". what i'd be after is a from everyday people for everyday people [20:47] humphreybc: not totally _all_ opinion [20:47] humphreybc, i think you hit the nail on the head [20:48] we should be objective, whenever possible [20:48] okay cool [20:48] and not 'subjective' [20:48] we can provide suggestions on the best ways to do things for newbies. [20:48] of course [20:48] yup, gotcha [20:48] thorwil: yeah that's what i thought you were getting at - basically keeping it in lay terms without becoming too 'techy' [20:48] the system should speak for itself, regarding quality [20:48] just not unreferenced, purely subjective opinions [20:48] or better yet, only provide opinions that are consistent with Ubuntu's default options, or the doc team's recommendations. [20:49] we should also link to hard facts if we do want to quote anything that makes ubuntu sound cool. example: French police force example in the prologue [20:49] jaminday: agree with lay terms, and explain techy terms if they have to be used (like, for instance "virtual machine") [20:49] (I haven't linked that to anything yet, btw) [20:49] humphreybc, thats greaty [20:49] great* [20:49] User experience vs testimonial....they are different [20:49] hm, i think it's fine in the prologue... [20:49] but more like in a fun facts sectioon [20:49] voxwoman: yep definitely [20:49] the first half should be entirely lay terms [20:49] or, like 'did you know' notecallouts aside of text [20:49] the second half, the "advanced" part can go into tech speak a wee bit more [20:50] whoever's idea it was to split the manual into two sections, congrats, that's the best thing we could have done xD [20:50] * thorwil throws a gerbil at vish [20:50] okay so are we happy with that? move on? [20:50] i don't know if it is very appropiate to say, but we should use a seducing way of writing [20:50] humphreybc: yes but still explain our tech terms in part II for the uninitiated [20:50] i agree [20:51] like a leveling section [20:51] wolter: what like use a lot of sibilance? "Ubuntu is sexy, super and you can sift through your significant work with style" [20:51] wolter: sorry, but how many writers do we have that would be capable of that? [20:51] hehe [20:51] thorwil, haha, what do you mean? [20:52] Yeah remember we don't exactly have Dale Carnegie on our writing team [20:52] and how will sibilance or alliteration translate? [20:52] thorwil, humphreybc i meant seductive, as in elegant and classy, simple and direct to the point [20:52] wolter: "Ubuntu is a scrumptious, passionate operating system. With it's luscious icons, and its agonizingly well-executed software packaging infrastructure, you can satisfy your fondest dreams of double-clicking" like that? [20:52] voxwoman: it won't, it's a joke :P [20:52] hahaha [20:52] haha not that loaded with terms [20:52] wolter: it seems to me like asking for highest craftsmanship, if you don't want to risk coming of as sleazy [20:52] (add 'yet friendly' to what i said before) [20:53] I think that's out of the equation for three reasons: 1) we don't have that capable writers, 2) it's hard to translate and 3) it's a bit risky to start sounding "sexy" [20:53] but wolter I know what you mean [20:53] humphreybc: agreed [20:53] it's like what Mac is trying to do compared to windows with their mac vs PC ads [20:53] ok, fair enough then [20:53] (I personally see Ubuntu as Optimus Prime in those ads) [20:53] humphreybc: hehe nice [20:53] * wolter hasn't watched Tranformers 2 [20:53]