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topylihi MenZa :)18:00
MenZahey topyli18:01
MenZahi all18:01
jussi011 sec, brb18:01
jussi01ok, Im back. role call - topyli Pici nhandler tsimpson18:03
tsimpsonhere sir18:03
jussi01ok, we have quorum, hope Pici arrives soon18:03
MootBotMeeting started at 12:03. The chair is jussi01.18:03
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]18:03
topylijussi01 has agreed to sacrifice himself as chair, right?18:04
jussi01[topic] Revisit #ubuntu-ops policies including 'no idling' & +v18:04
MootBotNew Topic:  Revisit #ubuntu-ops policies including 'no idling' & +v18:04
jussi01Daviey: this is you mate18:04
DavieyI'm not entirely sure how this point got attributed towards me.  However, I'll gladly discuss it18:05
DavieyIt's seems not to be such as issue as it once was... However it would be nice if we could revisit it's reasoning18:05
DavieyWhy does this policy exist?18:06
topylii find the current policy useful. no idling keeps the channel on topic, and furthermore lurkers during mediation could be harmful18:06
topyliwe have logs for transparendy18:07
MenZathen there's the potential for 'noise' in the channel as well18:07
jussi01+1, it also allows a way of simply seeing who needs attending to18:07
Davieytopyli: if you visit the logs you'll notice that the channel is often not on topic, with ops discussing non ops stuff.. Not saying this is a problem, but i'm not sure it validates a non lurk policy.18:07
jussi01Daviey: no, its on topic when it needs to be on topic - when there are people waiting18:08
nhandlerHaving this rule also avoids users simply joining -ops to "watch the show" which several users have admitted trying to do18:08
Davieyjussi01: if people need attending to.. they can simply ask.18:08
MenZaI think we'd be spending a lot of time trying to moderate the channel if it was a free-for-all-join party.18:08
Davieyi'm not sure people need to be coached into asking questions, or needing help.18:08
MenZai.e. users trying to 'help' with the moderation process of other channels18:08
PriceyI would prefer if operators tried to resolve the majority of situations in /query with the user.18:08
ikoniadoesn't that have the problem of not being logged ?18:09
MenZawell, an issue being resolved doesn't necessarily need to be logged for bureaucratic purposes18:10
topyliDaviey, i think it's a separate issue if we want to remove random chat among ops on -ops. we could move it to -ot if needed18:10
DavieyI'm not entirely sure how i feel about solving things in /query.  I agree that things should probably be logged, but we have discussed the issue previously of people having to state their issues infront of quite a large ops audience.18:10
PriceyDaviey: I see 3 other options...18:10
tsimpsonthe off-topic chatter in -ops would fit into the "Discuss general attitude for -ops, how we are expected to behave" item18:10
PriceyDaviey: In channel... in -ops... or in a meeting like this/over email.18:10
PriceyDaviey: Are any of those preferable?18:10
MenZaDaviey: well, the appeals process specifies that if people feel unfairly treated, they are welcome to join -ops for mediation.18:10
DavieyThis is true, but the item of agenda is eseentially regarding not allowing lurkers in -ops.18:11
MenZaAye, my bad.18:12
jussi01ok, are there more opinions on this? we need to keep the meeting moving - if not, lets have a vote.18:12
Priceya vote on what?18:12
Myrttiwhat are the benefits of allowing lurkers?18:13
jussi01Pricey: if we should allow lurkers in -ops18:13
MyrttiI can't think of any18:13
* Daviey proposes that people are allowed into -ops, including to lurk.. Unless they cause disruption where they are asked to stop.18:13
Myrttithe benefits of not allowing have already been mentioned18:13
Priceyyep as Myrtti says, i don't think benefits have been mentioned18:13
Priceyjussi01: ^18:13
tsimpsonI think the policy should be more clear, of we want to say that ops is only for discussion of issues it should be less offtopic18:13
tsimpsonbut that's part of another issue18:13
MyrttiI think that's another issue, like you said18:13
DavieyMyrtti: I think that people should be able to lurk in a functional channel if they wish.18:14
jussi01I honestly dont see any benefit of changing it, and none has been presented18:14
Davieysimilar to the lurkers in this channel right now.18:14
MyrttiDaviey: but what are the benefits? if there aren't any apart from "it would be nice", and there are clear negative effects...18:15
jussi01Daviey: I think the possibility of a "virtual lurking" is there through the logs, which is enough imho18:15
nhandlerIf a user is actually involved in the situation being discussed, we do invite them to -ops to contribute to the discussion. Why do we need to allow people to idle?18:15
DavieyI don't the issue is why we should allow people, we should really be open by default.18:15
PriceyI think a far preferable 'solution' is to try and conduct more of our work outside of -ops, in /query for example where it is less intense for the user.18:16
popeyI lurked for a long time in -ops for the benefit of myself in that I could see how operators did their job, i could learn from that18:16
DavieyI think allowing people to lurk, is moving towards the more open applications procedure that is being developed18:16
PriceyI see many people inviting people to -ops for a chat and I don't think that's always necessary.18:16
nhandlerpopey: That could be done just as easily via irclogs.ubuntu.com18:16
MenZanhandler: +118:16
topyliDaviey, as for lurkers here, this channel is not the same as -ops. this is decidedly a public meeting. -ops discusses people's bans, personal conduct, etc18:16
popeythats like telling people to ubsubscribe from a mailing list and that they should read it via lists.ubuntu.com instead18:17
cjohnstonnhandler: that requires work.. going out and activly looking through things18:17
DavieyWell popey is a "good egg", but he was asked to leave -ops after being a lurker and contributing for a number of years.18:17
DavieyWhich to me, is odd.18:17
cjohnstonif the info is publicly available, there is no reason imo people cant sit and watch18:17
cjohnstonif the info isnt public, different story18:17
Priceycjohnston: This isn't about those people.18:17
tsimpsonI think the issue is that people won't just sit and watch18:17
Priceycjohnston: The ops have this, because people don't "sit and watch".18:17
tsimpsonthey'll inevitably join-in18:18
MyrttiI can't understand what benefit we'd gain for allowing hecklers in18:18
PriceyDaviey: Some people don't like your or popey.18:18
MenZaI think it's a recipe for disaster, for the reasons tsimpson outlines.18:18
nhandlerAlright, so are there any other benefits of allowing people to idle in -ops ?18:18
mc44-ops was open to lurkers for ages before the rule was changed, and the rule was changed not because of any disruption or confusion, but because of an unjustified fear someone was coordinating attacks while lurking in ops18:18
Myrttiand it's not personal towards popey or Daviey, it's in general18:18
DavieyMyrtti: erm, i'm not sure how that is anything to do with me18:19
DavieyI am allowed to lurk :)18:19
MyrttiDaviey: per Pricey18:19
jussi01Would it be worth creating  a "mirror" channel that is +m but all of the conversations from - ops are relayed, so people can watch in real time but not interfere in the discussion. ?18:19
popeyi couldn't actually parse what pricey said18:19
nhandlerjussi01: If we were to do that, why not just +m -ops and voice people involved in the discussion ?18:19
DavieyI'm not sure why there is a feeling people will naturally interfere with a discussion.18:19
Priceypopey: extra 'r' there sorry. "Some people don't like you or popey."18:19
topylinhandler, that could work18:19
Daviey"getting involved" =! interfere18:20
MenZanhandler: massive moderation issues with that18:20
tsimpsonDaviey: human nature18:20
jussi01nhandler: because its then too hard for people to ask for voice18:20
DavieyPricey: that seems somewhat irrelevant18:20
mc44tsimpson: except, they didn;t18:20
tsimpsonmc44: they don't because there is no one lurking18:20
PriceyDaviey: I was replying to your "well popey is a "good egg",..." line.18:20
mc44tsimpson: maybe you weren't around when there was18:20
MenZathere was +Z on hyperion18:20
mc44tsimpson: and amazingly, nothing happened!18:20
DavieyPricey: He's certainly not a troll, and being asked to leave after being involved for a number of years is bad form IMO.18:21
tsimpsonmc44: I was in -ops before it was a no-idle channel, and I sometimes did jump into a conversation :)18:21
PriceyDaviey: I'm not disagreeing with you :-)18:21
tsimpsonbefore I as an op18:21
mc44tsimpson: I'm sure you caused havoc18:21
MenZatsimpson is a rascal!18:21
DavieyIs there objection to having the policy removed as an experiment?18:22
jussi01As much as this is an important subject, we have taken 20 mins on it, perhaps it would be best to move on now?18:22
* highvoltage waves18:22
tsimpsonthe other part of this item is the +v policy, what issues are there?18:22
Priceyjussi01: it would be great if we could do something.18:22
Priceyjussi01: Rather than do a little iccc charter, then start irc operator guidelines, then drop that, then talk about the +v policy a little... etc. etc.18:22
* Daviey assumes there isn't an objection to an experiement then.18:23
jussi01Daviey: I certainly object to that. I dont think it serves any real purpose.18:23
tsimpsonwe can try it out18:23
nhandlerSo far, we have had very few benefits listed IMO compared to the number of disadvantages.18:24
Davieyjussi01: you bjectpurely on the basis of an experiment not serving a purpose?18:24
Daviey<-- sticky keys.18:24
PriceyI'd like to repeat my earlier point... that we try and use /query for more issues. In the majority of cases there's no need to invite people to -ops for a mass discussion.18:24
nhandlerMany of the points raised can be solved by people interested in the discussions looking at irclogs.ubuntu.com18:24
Priceyits scary.18:24
nhandlerI think /query is fine for smaller issues or first time offenders. But for some more serious issues and repeat offenders, it can be benficial having discussion in -ops18:25
ikoniaPricey: that's caused problems in the past with people making false accounts of what's happened in query18:25
Priceynhandler: yep18:25
ikoniathen minor issues have to be raised to the ircc because people are making up what happened in query18:25
Davieynhandler: That sounds great, but i know i tend to react to hilights - which is much harder using a log dump.18:25
Priceyikonia: That sucks.18:25
ikoniaPricey: concur18:25
MenZaDaviey: Surely you'd only be hi-lighted if you were a party in the issue, in which case you'd already be in the channel.18:26
Priceyikonia: But I'd hope people would still try and work it out.18:26
Priceyikonia: if it has to move further on... it has to move further on18:26
ikoniaPricey: I think most people do and most people do use an initial query where possible18:26
Priceyikonia: and we've got the dispute resolution process for hte guideline18:26
Myrttihow about a moderated channel the bot automatically giving voices to people that have withstanding issue, ops being opped? ;-) yakshaving at its best18:26
DavieyMenZa: no, my hilights are not my nick based only.. and i'm sure i'm not the only one.18:26
Priceyikonia: i'm just suggesting we utilise /query a little more, not replace -ops etc.18:26
ikoniaPricey: I don't see that as a probloem, I know most guys do initiate a query to get the ball rolling18:27
MenZaDaviey: neither are mine, but I fail to see what sort of hilights you'd set that would make it 'interesting' for you to join into a discussion, or watch it (apologies for the tone; I'm finding it difficult to phrase myself better)18:27
MenZaPricey: I fail to see how opening up ops and sorting issues in /query are related18:27
PriceyMenZa: because I think a lot of the stuff we don't want people interfering with doesn't need to be in there in the first place18:28
MenZaSo, how does opening up -ops have to be a pre-requisite for taking issues in /query instead?18:28
DavieyMenZa: that is not really the issue.. Not allowing people to lurk, is in directly against the enabling people to get involved with the ops team, particulary the direction of making it easier for people to apply.18:28
Priceyits not18:28
Priceyi'm not saying that18:29
nhandlerDaviey: There are other methods of helping out than idling in -ops18:29
MenZa(I agree using /query often is a better option, but let's take that seperately)18:29
Priceywe should be doing it anyway as much as possible imo18:29
Davieynhandler: I agree, but potential applicants should be able to see it more from the inside IMO.18:29
* nhandler fails to see how seeing the discussion in an IRC client provides any more benefit than seeing it on irclogs.ubuntu.com18:30
jussi01Daviey: ok, given. however, we are working to enable more communication between ops and users - for example the #ubuntu-irc-helpers channel that is coming up. I think a mirror channel solves the issue admirably, people can watch if they want, and all the current benefits are still in place18:30
DavieyI personally feel the way it is at the moment fosters elitism.18:30
MenZaA mirror channel is the only semi-sensible solution I've heard suggested so far, to be honest -- if I'm mediating, I'd prefer not to be interrupted in the process by a third-party wishing to give their side of things, but I still fail to see *how* we benefit by even doing that18:31
ikoniajussi01: I don't really see another mirror channel's good18:31
popeynhandler: because whilst its happening you can pm people involved to learn more18:31
ikoniajussi01: (I understand you're just trying a helpful middle ground)18:31
* Daviey still cannot see justification for not having an experiement.18:32
tsimpsonmaybe a general -ops channel (where the ops "hang out") and an issue resolution channel may be more what we need?18:32
MenZatsimpson: and which would be open?18:32
jribDaviey: what is the proposed experiment?18:32
ikoniatsimpson: that's not allowed for transparancy18:32
cjohnstonrequire people interested in joining the ops team to lurk under the strict guidelines on dont get involved?18:32
tsimpsonone for only issue resolution and one for the "ops team"18:32
tsimpsonikonia: why?18:32
Davieyjrib: Dropping the no ideal policy, for a timed experiement.18:32
tsimpsonMenZa: the issue resolution channel would be no-idle, like -ops is now18:33
ikoniatsimpson: it's been suggested before and told it can't happen as people can't see what the ops are talking about - so that's not transparant18:33
jribDaviey: but this was the previous policy already, no?18:33
tsimpsonbut the other channel would be open18:33
MenZatsimpson: that doesn't change anything though, does it?18:33
tsimpsonboth would be logged18:33
MenZawhat would the 'general' channel's purpose be?18:33
tsimpsonit would go some way towards the issues Pricey is bringing up18:33
Davieyjrib: and i didn't see it had a problem then.18:33
tsimpsonMenZa: a team channel18:33
PriceyI would far prefer an open channel, where we dealt with issues as and when they appear.18:34
tsimpsonwe can talk amongst ourselfs and with IRC users in the team channel, which is open to all18:34
tsimpsonand the issue channel is just for that purpose18:34
PriceyOverreaching rules, that could very easily damage the benefits we are able to give the community are not good imo.18:35
PriceyThe more contributors we have the better, and not everyone interested in what's going on and wanting to help out are bad.18:35
jribDaviey: you did witness third-parties interfering at times though?18:35
PriceyI would much prefer we deal with problem users interfering with the -ops activities as and when they become a problem.18:35
Davieyjrib: but it never caused a *major* issue IMO.18:36
MenZaI'm not 100% against trying it as an *experiment*, but I'd suggest a zero-tolerance policy against interference in this case18:36
jussi01ok, so there a few options Ive seen, Daviey's experiment, the mirror channel, cjohnston's strictly monitored interested parties, tsimpson's general ops team channel. have I missed any?18:36
MenZai.e. if you even try to hop into an issue being dealt with, instant /ar18:36
jussi01oh, and leave it as it is18:36
topylijussi01, the "i'm happy right now" one :)18:36
Davieyjust because someone isn't directly involved in an issue,it doesn't make their PoV invalid.18:36
MenZaDaviey: How about we instate a votebot, then?18:37
Myrttijussi01: the bot autovoicing on a moderated channel18:37
MenZaLet people vote for or against! To ban or not to ban!18:37
jribDaviey: I agree.  It was an infrequent issue.  I also think the channel would benefit from being open.  It fosters a better image in my opinion.18:37
DavieyMenZa: i'm not sure i agree with that, sounds like over engineering a non-issue.. But if you think it'sa good idea,it would be better to give it a seperate agenda item.18:38
Priceyjussi01: "Making it entirely open and dealing with disruption when required."18:38
jussi01We have already had complaints to the ircc about too many people in the mediation discussion, and we have talked to the ops about this, I dont see how adding still more people to those discussions helps18:38
MenZaDaviey: I was being sarcastic18:38
MenZaDaviey: Too many cooks spoil the broth and all that, what jussi01's saying18:38
DavieyMenZa: sarcasism is less than constructive.18:39
ikoniais there a chance we could start looking at things with common sense and without kid gloves ?18:39
jussi01ikonia: ?18:39
MenZaDaviey: Yeah; apologies.18:39
cjohnstonor when someone comes in needing help, all invested parties go +v chan goes +m?18:39
ikoniajussi01: there seems to be an overwhelming desire to please everyone for the sake of the "ubuntu way" rather than working out what is productive to help mediate the channels18:39
tsimpsoncjohnston: that's quite impractical18:40
MenZaikonia: +118:40
Priceyikonia: I really don't like that idea...18:40
Myrttitsimpson: the bot keeps track on who has an issue already18:40
Priceyikonia: We are not out to make stuff easy for us to 'mediate' the channels.18:40
Priceyikonia: If we need to put in hard graft... we need to put in hard graft.18:40
Priceyikonia: We want the channels to be as productive as possible.18:40
Myrttitsimpson: ops would be ops, the people with bans/mutes would get voice, the rest could request for voice or ask at -irc/-irc-helpers18:40
Priceyikonia: *the channels be as productive as possible*. Our 'mediation' is not the priority here.18:41
tsimpsonMyrtti: and when 2 people with bans/mutes join?18:41
ikoniaPricey: moderate would have been a better word then18:41
Myrttitsimpson: fifo18:41
Priceyikonia: I don't care, still a bad aim imo.18:41
Myrttitsimpson: as it is now18:41
Priceyikonia: This shouldn't be about making it easy for us.18:41
jribMyrtti: how do we determine someone is banned/muted?18:41
ikoniaPricey: yeah, I can see how making easy moderation to help the channel flow for productivity would be a bad idea18:41
DavieyAs i said earlier,i feel that having a non lurk policy fosters elistismand we need to remember +o's only exisit to serve the users.18:41
Myrttijrib: the bot does, it already does with the bantracker?18:41
MenZaWe don't seem to be going anywhere with this discussion in this party -- can I suggest that we possibly put this issue out on the mailing list, return to it at the next meeting?18:42
jussi01I think maybe cjohnston's strictly moderated observers could work. ie. someon joins the channel, we ask how can we help, they say, Id like to observe, we then give them a set of rules for observers.18:42
MenZaMore input would be a good idea, imo18:42
jribMyrtti: I see, so bot auto-voices anyone with bans/mutes in relevant channels?18:42
Myrttijrib: yup18:42
Davieyjussi01: If someone needs help, they will ask.. Why does anyone think they need prompting?18:42
Myrttiinstant recognition of people with issues as a bonus18:42
cjohnstontsimpson: keep all ops +v, have a command (!ops) that when someone joins the channel and says !ops a bot voices them and +m the channel.. once the issue is resolved someone sets it -m... after setup requires only minor work18:42
Priceyikonia: its a secondary priority.18:42
jribMyrtti: but there are issues for #ubuntu-ops that do not involve bans/mutes too18:43
Myrttijrib: if ops are opped, they can see if someone requests for a voice or the issue can be handled at -irc/-irc-helpers18:43
jussi01Daviey: because how many people think they are in #ubuntu?  how many people who come in because of forwards and dont say anything, but need their issue dealt with?18:43
jribMyrtti: I see, so the +v is for the benefit of the lurkers really18:44
Davieyjussi01: Asking if they need help, will only encourage people thinking they are in #ubuntu :)18:44
* MenZa looks at the clock.18:44
Myrttijrib: one way of seeing it18:44
tsimpsonwe have spent 45 mins talking about this now, and we haven't got far18:44
MenZaCan I re-state my suggestion above -- that we gather more input from the mailing list on it?18:45
DavieyCan i requesta vote on removing the non lurk policy an a time limited experiment between this meeting an next?18:45
tsimpsonI agree with MenZa18:45
jussi01[vote] Take this issue to the ML and re-visit next meeting18:45
MootBotPlease vote on:  Take this issue to the ML and re-visit next meeting.18:45
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot18:45
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting18:45
jussi01only ircc vote please18:45
MootBot+1 received from jussi01. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 118:45
MootBot+1 received from tsimpson. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 218:45
MootBot+1 received from topyli. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 318:45
jussi01nhandler: ?18:46
jussi01well vote passed in any case.18:46
PriceyGood work guys, some nice progress made here :-)18:46
MootBotFinal result is 3 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 318:46
topyliPricey, right :)18:46
Davieyjussi01: and a vote on my suggestion?18:46
PriceyDaviey: Looks like its been overruled :-(18:46
jussi01Daviey: next meeting18:46
jussi01discuss on the ml please18:47
topyliDaviey, your suggestion is still valid18:47
tsimpsonDaviey: we'l get all the options discussed on the ml18:47
MenZajussi01: You'll send out an e-mail with the current suggestions?18:47
popeyB[B[B[Bwhich mailing list?[Bwhich ml?18:47
MenZapopey: ubuntu-irc@lists18:47
jussi01the IRC one?18:47
* MenZa fixes popey's keyboard18:47
jussi01[topic] Should the IRCC members be direct members of ~ubuntu-core-ircops and named channel operators18:47
MootBotNew Topic:  Should the IRCC members be direct members of ~ubuntu-core-ircops and named channel operators18:47
tsimpsonsome background may be needed on this one18:48
jussi01nhandler: around at all?18:48
nhandler(for the last vote)18:48
nhandlerFor this topic, we previously had IRCC members as OPs in the various channels through UbuntuIrcCouncil18:48
nhandlerIf I understand the current plans correctly, after we start using LP to manage the access lists, the IRCC will become named-ops in the channels (since we are direct members of ~ubuntu-core-ircops)18:49
MenZaCan't ~ubuntu-irccouncil be a member of ~ubuntu-core-ircops?18:49
jussi01MenZa: it is18:49
PriceyCan the IRCC only add themselves to channel flags lists by agreeing to at a meeting like this?18:49
nhandlerThat isn't what this is about Pricey18:50
MenZajussi01: So, doesn't it... have access that way?18:50
nhandlerThis is about whether we should be named-ops in the channels (as IRCC members) or if we should only have access through UbuntuIrcCouncil18:50
PriceyWhat's the point in limiting yourself?18:50
jussi01MenZa: it does. this is about being "named" ooperators18:50
MenZaOh, right. :)18:50
PriceyIf you've access through "UbuntuIrcCouncil"... that's just a hassle! put yourself down by name, save user's confusion?18:50
Priceynhandler: And it looks like your answer to my previous questino was 'yes'.18:51
nhandlerBecause previously, there was an attempted separation between being on the council and being an Ubuntu OP18:51
nhandlerAs a note, whatever we decide here will impact "Ops are welcome to apply for a role on the council and retain their Op status, but they are also informed that in the interests of having a separation of power, they also have the opportunity to step down as an Op temporarily." in the charter18:52
tsimpsonnhandler: we would only be named-ops as long as we were in the council or a direct member of the team(s) for those channel(s)18:52
PriceyWhat's the difference between being an op through the "ubuntuirccoucnil" shared nick, and your own?18:52
Pricey1. Its a hassle for you to do anything using the shared nick.18:52
Pricey2. Its *FAR* less transparent to users, at who is doing what, when the nick is used.18:52
jussi01Pricey: one allows you access while on the council, one for a longer period18:52
MenZaIsn't the intention of the UbuntuIRCCouncil nick just to be ... an emergency handbrake?18:53
Priceyjussi01: Why can't you just remove 'bad' people?18:53
nhandlerPricey: From what I was informed when I joined the council, having access through UbuntuIrcCouncil is similar to having access through *!*@freenode/staff/*. We aren't the primary OPs, we only intervene when no named ops are around18:53
Davieyjussi01: surely LP integreation would auto remove access when not on IRCC18:53
Priceynhandler: I thought we were talking about 'core' channels?18:53
jussi01Pricey: not really - identifying as the nick without /nick ing to it makes it fairly easy, I have an alias set18:53
Priceyjussi01: That seems like needless bureacracy to me. (Yes I can't spell)18:54
jussi01Daviey: thats the point, we have access through the ircc nick, no need to be a named op as well imho18:54
Priceyjussi01: If you have been trusted to act in a channel, why make yourself jump through hoops?18:54
Davieyjussi01: except the transparencey18:54
Priceyjussi01: If you're no longer trusted to act in a channel, then your access should be removed?18:54
tsimpsonjiboumans: with the LP integration, we would be named ops18:54
tsimpsonjussi01: ^18:54
Priceyjussi01: And with 'transparency', it should be obvious to users who the ops of a channel are.18:55
* Daviey proposes that this topic is moved to the mailing list and deferred until next meeting.18:55
MenZaGuys -- perhaps this would be more relevant to discuss *after* deciding on the "Extend ubuntu cloaks to include more information" -- what if *!*@ubuntu/member/irccouncil/* had access?18:55
nhandlerWell, I guess it all depends on the role the IRCC is meant to play. Do we want them to be performing the everyday OP duties in the core channels? Or do we want the council to only act as an OP when no other OPs are around18:55
* Pricey highfives Daviey 18:55
tsimpsonhow/when we act as ops in those channels is the real issue I think you're getting at18:55
nhandlerPretty much, I believe that is the core issue18:56
jussi01tsimpson: exactly18:56
topyliwhat about an ircc member that wishes to drop their op status? for them, being auto-opped on even more channels is not ideal :)18:56
nhandlertopyli: Auto-OP was never being discussed. They might have OP access, but they will not be automatically OPed18:56
topylithey would show on access lists and be pressured to do op duties18:57
Priceytopyli: I'd hope they are free to make the personal decision to not op channels if they don't want to.18:57
Priceytopyli: However making them jump through hoops to operate if they want to op is silly!18:57
topylitrue true, simpler is better18:58
jussi01I dont think its useful, in the light of the charter and what was discussed at UDS wrt ircc members "stepping down as ops" etc its best they are not added just because they are on the ircc.18:58
tsimpsonthe majority of the channel stuff would/should be done by the channel ops, then core ops when needed18:58
Priceyjussi01: sounds fine to me.18:58
jussi01tsimpson: yes, then the ircc when stuff above that is needed18:58
Priceyjussi01: I just don't like the idea of you removing people's ops and telling them to use the ubuntuirccouncil nick.18:58
tsimpsona council member would have to make a choice, to act as a core-op, or as the IRCC18:58
jussi01Pricey: no, no removals would be done18:58
Priceyjussi01: you guys own the core channels, if you want to add one of yourself to the channel flags list... then decide it!18:59
jussi01Pricey: this is about adding them to the core op team18:59
nhandlerPricey: We aren't removing their OP status. But for instance, I was not previously a core-op. Should I be added just for being on the IRCC? That was the issue18:59
Priceyjussi01: so what on earth are we discussing?18:59
Priceyis this literally a "what launchpad memberships do i have" issue?18:59
jussi01Pricey: not really.18:59
tsimpsonwe are moving towards a hierarchy of operators, channel ops -> core ops -> council (at least from a Launchpad POV)19:00
jussi01ok, shall we have a vote?19:00
Priceytsimpson: so again, a 'yes' to what i just said?19:00
jussi01[vote] should IRC Council members be added to the core ops team ?19:01
MootBotPlease vote on:  should IRC Council members be added to the core ops team ?.19:01
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot19:01
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting19:01
MootBot-1 received from jussi01. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -119:02
nhandlerjussi01: This vote means the individual members of the IRCC team?19:02
tsimpsonPricey: the IRCC LP team will be a member (admin) of the core-ops team19:02
jussi01nhandler: correct.19:02
tsimpsonso an op in all core channels19:02
tsimpsonas individual members19:03
PriceyI'm glad we spent all that time on this launchpad groups issue.19:03
MootBot-1 received from tsimpson. 0 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -219:03
PriceyRather than trying to sort out user's concerns with -ops etc.19:03
MootBot-1 received from nhandler. 0 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -319:03
MootBot-1 received from topyli. 0 for, 4 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -419:03
topyliwe can do it as needed19:03
MootBotFinal result is 0 for, 4 against. 0 abstained. Total: -419:03
PriceyThat could have been done in private by the IRCC19:03
Priceyits not an issue that involves the community tbh.19:03
jussi01Pricey: we have given extra time to that issue by allowing it to go to the ML.19:03
nhandlerIt also affects the charter issue19:03
jussi01Pricey: we are aiming for transparency remember19:03
cjohnstonit could have been read on a log19:04
* cjohnston hides19:04
jussi01[topic] Discuss the IRC Council Charter19:04
MootBotNew Topic:  Discuss the IRC Council Charter19:04
nhandler[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil19:04
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil19:04
nhandlerI have made many changes to this charter based on feedback from many members of the community19:05
PriceyI still don't like that voting line.19:05
PriceyIt caused issues in the past.19:05
PriceyThe decision shouldn't be dictated by what members voted.19:06
jussi01Pricey: it changed?19:06
PriceyI don't think its good enough19:06
jussi01Pricey: suggestions please?19:06
Pricey"Decisions will be made when a majority of the seated council is in agreement"19:06
nhandlerI have no issues with that19:07
PriceyIf you have 5 members, you need 3 to agree.19:07
jussi01Pricey: no, I disagree19:07
Priceyjussi01: that rule let us go against elky time and time again.19:07
jussi01because when the cc is slow or something else happens, we dont want voting to happen with just 2, like was the case with Pici and I recently19:07
Priceyjussi01: Decisions weren't made fairly because of the composition of people at meetings.19:07
jussi01Pricey: read it again19:08
jussi01Decisions will be made by a majority of voting IRC Council members when at least three and more than half of the total members have voted.19:08
jussi01oh, wait19:08
Priceystill teh same issue19:08
jussi01nhandler: we changed thart19:08
jussi01nhandler: where did our change go?19:08
Priceyi've no problem with 3 people being at a meeting and if they all agree, the decision being passed19:08
jussi01Pricey: I agree with that, my apologies19:09
Priceyjussi01: Cool. I'll be quiet now.19:09
nhandlerjussi01: I'm not sure when/where your change got made.19:09
jussi01I just want that if the council has 2 members, they cannot vote.19:09
PriceyI don't see the point in a chairman either? No casting vote is needed if we go with the above.19:09
jussi01nhandler: you and I talked in pm about this a long time ago19:10
Priceyjussi01: 2 members? i'm confused19:10
Priceyjussi01: as in 2 at a meeting?19:10
jussi01Pricey: situation like when Pici and i were only there19:10
nhandlerjussi01: Yes, I talked with Pricey about that too. I know I made changes to that line several times19:10
Priceyjussi01: ah right19:10
Priceyjussi01: yep, hopefully my suggestion above covers that?19:10
nhandlerPricey: I haven't seen a need for that line either, but the CC felt strongly about it19:10
Priceynhandler: i guess because they don't only require a majority of 'present' members for decisions.19:11
Priceyand/or have even member numbers19:11
nhandlerSo any objections to implementing Pricey's proposed change from above (for the voting line) and removing the chairman stuff ?19:12
topylinone here19:12
jussi01the chairman is a good idea. most of the other councils have one, either officially or unofficially, but they keep the council focused.19:12
Priceymeh, keep it in i guess19:12
jussi01please do not remove the chairman line without consultation of the CC.19:12
Priceyyou won't be tied19:12
MenZaA chairman is good. We can just leave that bit in, as a casting vote won't really be necessary19:12
Priceybut if you one day become 6 votes...19:12
Pricey*6 people...19:12
jussi01Pricey: ;)19:13
Priceythen it'll be there and ready :-)19:13
nhandlerjussi01: Not many of the councils have it in the charter. They end up with a person unofficially taking on that role, but I don't think it should be in the charter19:13
MenZaIt's good to have a chairman, if nothing else, someone to force to chair meetings :P19:13
tsimpsonjussi01: what would be the situation when 2 members +1, 2 members -1, and one abstains +0?19:13
jussi01tsimpson: yes, exactly19:13
Priceymeh yeah.. hadn't thought that way19:13
nhandlerMenZa: The chairman shouldn't need to chair every meeting19:13
nhandlertsimpson: It wouldn't pass19:13
Priceythe whole "chairman" idea just seems to be LOTS more messing about on stuff that doesn't matter... too many rules19:13
jussi01The chairman line is needed imho19:13
nhandlertsimpson: A majority of the sitting IRCC members would not be voting the same way19:14
MenZanhandler: I was joking :P19:14
topyliok, i understand the casting vote part now. i'm slow but at lest it's still the same day!19:14
* MenZa goes to get himself and topyli some coffee.19:15
topyliat least, even19:15
jussi01are there any other issues? thoughts?19:15
Priceyjussi01: little confusion up above i believe19:15
Pricey19:13 < tsimpson> jussi01: what would be the situation when 2 members +1, 2 members -1, and one abstains +0?19:15
Pricey19:13 < nhandler> tsimpson: It wouldn't pass19:15
Priceysurely if you leave the chairman line in.... their vote would be the one that mattered?19:16
tsimpsonyeah, in that case, why a chairman with a casting vote?19:16
nhandlerPricey: Based on your suggestion for the voting line, we would not have a majority of the sitting members voting the same way19:16
* jussi01 thinks a little19:16
nhandlertsimpson: In that case, I would think more discussion would be neccessary instead of forcing a decision then and there19:16
MenZanhandler: +119:16
tsimpsonnhandler: so what's the point of a casting vote?19:16
tsimpsonif it can never be used19:16
Priceynhandler: so why are you advocating leaving in that chairman line?19:16
topyliright, not a majority there19:17
nhandlerPricey: I was in favor of removing that line19:17
Priceynhandler: because as it reads... that is *exactly* the siatuatino they woul dhave their casting vote19:17
Priceynhandler: then i misunderstood you sorry.19:17
tsimpsonok, so if no one can use a casting vote, it should be removed to stop this confusion19:17
jussi01I want the chairman line there. the casting vote doesnt matter, but there needs to be a chairman imho. and it should be in the charter.19:17
MenZaI'm going to have to withdraw from this meeting -- apologies all around. I have an older point on the agenda; my reasoning/arguments are in the IRCteamproposal page.19:18
Priceythen what's the difference between chairman and "at every meeting, a secretary is appointed to guide things"19:18
nhandlerjussi01: What purpose in your opinion does having a CC-chosen chairman have?19:18
MenZaHave a good meeting all \o19:18
Pricey"what's the point in any of this"19:18
tsimpsonlater MenZa \o19:18
MenZa(I may return later)19:18
topylisince the voting issue is a non-issue, i have no urge to create a chairman position19:20
jussi01nhandler: as I said, someone who performs the role of a leader, someone who guides, keeps things on track.19:20
Priceytopyli: Maybe it is preferable to have a chairman to get us out of issues like:19:20
Pricey19:15 < Pricey> 19:13 < tsimpson> jussi01: what would be the situation when 2 members +1, 2 members -1, and one abstains +0?19:20
tsimpsonthen that role needs to be defined19:20
jussi01otherwise the council tends to wander, and becomes less effective19:20
topylijussi01, someone always does that anyway :)19:20
nhandlerjussi01: I don't think we need the CC to choose someone to need to do that.19:20
Priceytopyli: and not force delays and revotes etc. etc.19:20
jussi01topyli: no, they dont.19:20
nhandlerjussi01: I think we should be capable of doing that ourself19:21
nhandlerFor instance, at meetings, the desegnated meeting chair will be tasked with doing that19:21
jussi01nhandler: I didnt say the CC had to choose, just that we need one19:21
tsimpsonthe document says "appointed by the Community Council"19:21
topyliPricey, ok if you prefer quick decisions over deliberated ones19:22
Priceytopyli: I prefer making the right decisions on things that matter. I also prefer just making 'a' decision on the rest, and saying "we were wrong, lets change it" later if it was the wrong decision.19:22
tsimpsonif we get a blocked vote constantly, we have the option to defer to the CC to make a decision19:23
jussi01Pricey: we are just giving a little more time for debate because we feel the issue is important to the community19:23
ikoniatsimpson: I thought that's when the chair kicked in ?19:23
Priceyits the ircc's job to decide things19:23
Priceyjussi01: another point... what happens when one member of hte ircc has to step back due to conflict of interest?19:24
tsimpsonikonia: if the char has no casting vote, how can they?19:24
Priceyjussi01: then a chairman would be good19:24
ikoniatsimpson: oh, I missunderstood, I thought they did, sory19:24
Priceyjussi01: I just want there to be at least an attempt of the entire ircc to make a decision, before things like that come into play.19:24
ikoniaPricey: based on your experience, as a former council member, could you hilight why this didn't happen in the past19:24
Priceyikonia: Because the charter said it wasn't required.19:25
ikoniaPricey: that may help remove options that don't work19:25
ikoniaPricey: but you can change the charter ?19:25
ikoniaPricey: why didn't you change the charter19:25
Priceyikonia: The decisions went in my favour.19:25
PriceyWell, not my favour, but I got the decisions I wanted.19:25
jussi01Pricey: I dont feel everyone was heard clearly and there were many points of view and ideas, so the mailing list can give a better and clearer view, and we can make a better decision.19:25
jussi01can we move on now?19:26
nhandlerHave we reached a decission about the chairman ?19:26
PriceyCan you guys just vote on changing that one line, then leave the chairman bit in?19:26
jussi01Pricey: changing the voting line?19:26
Priceyjussi01: from majority of members at meeting agreeing, to majority of total members.19:27
jussi01ok, could I ask for wording suggestions for that line please?19:27
nhandlerjussi01: He already proposed one19:27
Pricey19:06 < Pricey> "Decisions will be made when a majority of the seated council is in agreement"19:27
PriceyRight at the very start.19:27
Pricey11 minutes ago.19:27
jussi01nhandler: Im asking for a few alternates19:27
topyliPricey's suggestion is fine19:29
nhandlerI already said I didn't mind his voting line suggestion19:29
jussi01[vote] Change the voting line in the charter to: Decisions will be made when a majority of the seated council is in agreement (with CC approval)19:29
MootBotPlease vote on:  Change the voting line in the charter to: Decisions will be made when a majority of the seated council is in agreement (with CC approval).19:30
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot19:30
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting19:30
MootBot+1 received from jussi01. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 119:30
MootBot+1 received from topyli. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 219:30
MootBot+1 received from tsimpson. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 319:30
Pricey(Bear in mind, this doesn't require everyone to vote at the same meeting. you could get a +2, -1 at the meeting, then the other two members make their vote on list and the decision is made for example.)19:30
nhandlerWhat is with the CC approval comment?19:30
Priceynhandler: the cc ultimately have to approve your charter19:30
jussi01nhandler: the charter has to be approved by the cc19:30
nhandlerAlright, just making sure you didn't mean the individual decisions had to be approved by the CC19:31
MootBot+1 received from nhandler. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 419:31
MootBotFinal result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 419:31
PriceyI also have several problems with the "Appointment Process" section.19:31
jussi01Pricey: throw them out19:31
Priceywhoops, wrong document19:31
Priceyignore me19:32
* jussi01 hugs Pricey19:32
nhandlerPricey: :)19:32
nhandlerSo, what do we want to do about the chairman line?19:32
Priceynhandler: leave it19:32
nhandlerSo far, I haven't heard anyone being in favor of having the CC appoint the chair (even people favoring a chairman)19:32
Priceynhandler: i gave a few scenarios above19:32
Priceynhandler: including topyli's +2, -2, 0 one... what about when one of you has a conflict of interest and cant vote?19:32
Priceyit could be useful19:33
jussi01my change: The Council will have a chairman with a casting vote, elected by the IRC Council every year.19:33
ikoniarotational sounds good19:34
jussi01So we have an internal election19:34
nhandlerI would be willing to give this a try.19:34
Priceyhehe, i like that evil suggestion, i'm off, back later19:35
jussi01ok, just for the record:19:35
nhandlerHowever, I would like to re-evaluate this (and possibly the entire charter after 6 months or so)19:35
* Daviey points out that we are on point 3 of 16, after being in the meeting for 1.5 hours. 19:35
Priceynhandler: don't set a date19:35
nhandlerDaviey: We are not going to address all of the agenda items19:35
jussi01[vote] The Council will have a chairman with a casting vote, elected by the IRC Council every year.19:35
MootBotPlease vote on:  The Council will have a chairman with a casting vote, elected by the IRC Council every year..19:35
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot19:35
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting19:35
Priceynhandler: if there's an issue, *deal with it!!!*19:35
MootBot+1 received from topyli. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 119:35
MootBot+1 received from nhandler. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 219:36
MootBot+1 received from jussi01. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 319:36
MootBot+1 received from tsimpson. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 419:36
MootBotFinal result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 419:36
nhandlerAlright, so any other issues with the charter?19:37
jussi01[action] nhandler to make the 2 chnages to the wiki19:37
MootBotACTION received:  nhandler to make the 2 chnages to the wiki19:37
* nhandler has already made the changes19:37
jussi01yeah, just want it on moobots report19:37
jussi01ok then.19:37
jussi01[topic] Discuss process for becoming an operator19:38
MootBotNew Topic:  Discuss process for becoming an operator19:38
nhandlerjussi01: We aren't done with the charter19:38
jussi01nhandler: no other issues have come up.19:38
nhandlerDoes anyone present have any other issues with the charter? Or can we present it to the CC?19:38
nhandlerjussi01: If there are no other issues with it, feel free to give me the action to send out an email about it to the CC19:39
jussi01ok, shall we vote on sending to the cc?19:40
jussi01[action] Nhandler to email the CC about the charter being ready.19:40
MootBotACTION received:  Nhandler to email the CC about the charter being ready.19:40
jussi01ok, now, to the operator process19:41
jussi01We sent an email about this recently, and I think we have covered most of the issues raised there.19:41
MootBotLINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcTeam/OperatorRequirements19:42
jussi01is there any more discussion on this?19:42
topylilooks like we're happy?19:44
jussi01looks that way to me19:44
jussi01nhandler: tsimpson ?19:44
tsimpsonlooks good here19:44
Myrtti"Service Temporarily Unavailable"19:44
jussi01ok, lets wait a sec for the wiki to come up19:44
nhandlerWhile I wait for the page to load, were all of the issues raised on the ML addressed?19:44
jussi01nhandler: I think I got to all of them19:45
jussi01let me just look over it again19:45
jussi01I asked on the ML 2 days ago for any further issues or thoughts and there has been no reply.19:46
tsimpsonwiki seems to be working again now19:47
jussi01Im inclined to approve this, with the ability to change it if more issues come up.19:47
nhandlerjussi01: +119:47
jussi01we then can at least start the LP import and get operators if we need them.19:48
* Myrtti reads more19:48
nhandlerWe can revise it after we try it out and see what works and what doesn't19:48
jussi01How does implement with a review in 2 months sound?19:48
=== Guest97160 is now known as Joeb454
nhandlerjussi01: I think we should hold off on the review until some people complete the entire process (including mentoring/probation)19:49
Myrttican recommendations and testimonials still be sent as pm to a member of ircc?19:49
jussi01Myrtti: its best they go to the ml or so, but of course19:49
topyliwe've had the time and input on it, now it's time to see where we're wrong. when we see problems, we'll fix them19:49
jussi01the ML is private, but allows things to be recorded19:49
MyrttiI'm thinking of the geek social fallacy #119:50
Myrtti"ostracizers are evil" - I'd prefer to give -1 testimonials as private messages to the ircc...19:51
jussi01Myrtti: thats what our private ML is for, no?19:52
Myrtti(I just hate email)19:52
jussi01ok, so, vote time then19:52
nhandlerjussi01: Any objections to my suggestion wrt when we review the process?19:53
jussi01[vote] Accept the current operatorm reuirements and probation docs, formally review in 4 months.19:53
MootBotPlease vote on:  Accept the current operatorm reuirements and probation docs, formally review in 4 months..19:53
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot19:53
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting19:53
jussi01nhandler: no. :)19:53
Myrttiwhat I'd really want to see is a mention of positive testimonial needed from a current op of the channel the applicant is trying for. If the current ops feel like they have an issue with the applicant, then it has to be addressed in some way before the applicant can be passed as an op19:53
MootBot+1 received from tsimpson. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 119:53
MootBot+1 received from jussi01. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 219:54
Myrttioh, nevermind then.19:54
MootBot+1 received from topyli. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 319:54
jussi01Myrtti: sorry, didnt mean to jump you there19:54
topyliMyrtti, i think those will be taken into account19:54
nhandlerMyrtti: I think the IRCC will notice if no OPs in that channel have left testimonials19:54
tsimpsonMyrtti: both positive and negative comments will be taken into consideration19:54
MootBot+1 received from nhandler. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 419:54
jussi01ok, lets end the meeting there, lets come back in 2 weeks.19:55
nhandlerjussi01: Only one D in 'end'19:55
nhandler(the vote didn't end)19:56
jussi01anyone with any views about what is on the agenda, please use the background page or the ML19:56
MootBotFinal result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 419:56
Myrttiand my final concern, just to make things clear: the ops are appointed by need, not just because there are applications for the job?19:56
nhandlerCorrect Myrtti19:56
Myrtti(and how do we define a need for ops?)19:56
jussi01Myrtti: I think thats covered in the process no?19:56
jussi01Myrtti: point 319:57
jussi01ok, Im off, nini all19:57
MootBotMeeting finished at 13:58.19:58
Myrttithat bot is grossly out of its time19:58
topylimeh, what's a few hours!19:58
topyli(in the life of a bot)19:59
=== Guest57357 is now known as davidm
=== Guest32953 is now known as Seeker`
jussi01Seeker`: ?21:35
jussi01Seeker`: did it not end?21:35
nhandlerjussi01: It ended: 13:58:10 < jussi01> #endmeeting21:55
nhandler13:58:11 < MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:58.21:55

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