[13:01]  * persia peers about
[13:07]  * persia reads https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-mobile/2010-February/002655.html and goes to fiddle with REVU instead
[13:07] <MenZa> heh
[13:10]  * xnox is testing connection
[13:13] <ian_brasil> ah ..no meeting today
[13:13] <rbelem> :'(
[13:15]  * MenZa hands coffee all around to substitute the meeting.
[13:16]  * ian_brasil should actually *read* mails to the mobile list
[13:19]  * persia too, and in a timely manner :)
[13:28] <vish> persia: hi.. when is the next asia regional board meeting?
[13:28] <BlackZ> vish, read here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/AsiaOceania
[13:29]  * persia thanks BlackZ 
[13:29] <BlackZ> persia, :D
[13:29] <vish> BlackZ: i already saw that , but the date is an old one ;)
[13:30] <vish> "The next meeting is scheduled for 26-Jan-2010, 10:00 UTC  "
[13:30] <BlackZ> hmm
[13:31] <persia> Right.  I'll sort that.
[13:31]  * vish thanks persia :)
[13:31] <BlackZ> yes, it was a mistake ;)
[13:34] <persia> OK.  Fixed.
[13:35] <BlackZ> vish, good luck
[13:35] <vish> thanks :)
[13:35] <BlackZ> ;)
[14:57]  * persia peers about
[14:57] <statik> hello
[14:58]  * coolbhavi lifts his both hands and says present sir
[14:58]  * geser waves
[14:58]  * mok0 is here
[14:59]  * ScottK consults the coffee pot for motivation.
[14:59]  * MenZa slides ScottK some fresh coffee, noting the coffee pot has been sitting for a few hours.
[15:00] <cjwatson> hello
[15:00] <pitti> hello
[15:01] <soren> o/
[15:01]  * stgraber waves
[15:01] <cjwatson> right!  who's chairing this one?
[15:01] <dholbach> hi
[15:01]  * persia can
[15:01] <cjwatson> I vaguely recall that each of us from the previous board volunteered assuming that we got in, and I seem to be the only one ;-)
[15:01] <cjwatson> but I don't mind
[15:02] <pitti> cjwatson: o/
[15:02] <persia> OK :)
[15:02] <cjwatson> pitti: sorry, meant the only one still on the board :)
[15:02] <cjwatson> #startmeeting
[15:02] <MootBot> Meeting started at 09:02. The chair is cjwatson.
[15:02] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[15:03] <cjwatson> [TOPIC] Action review
[15:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  Action review
[15:03] <cjwatson> well, first off, welcome to the new board :-)
[15:03] <cjwatson> we have a couple of carried-over actions
[15:03] <cjwatson> the election is obviously done ...
[15:03] <cjwatson> * persia to ask CC to make DMB an admin of ~universe-contributors, as part of the DMB/MC merge
[15:03] <persia> CC still hasn't completed this.  I'll prod them again.
[15:04] <cjwatson> nixternal: are you here, BTW?
[15:04] <dholbach> persia: I'll have a look at it later on
[15:04] <persia> dholbach: Great.
[15:04] <cjwatson> no cody-somerville either
[15:04] <ScottK> A related issue, but maybe OT for this meeting is currently the motu-release team does not have any administrators
[15:04] <xnox> hhello sorry I'm late
[15:04] <dholbach> persia: maybe just remind me quick - I'm not awake yet ;)
[15:04] <cjwatson> ScottK: eek.  though wasn't it due to be merged into ubuntu-release at some point?
[15:05] <ScottK> cjwatson: It is.
[15:05] <persia> Note that while we can hear xnox's application, as a result, we can't act on it today.
[15:05] <ScottK> In the meantime it ought to have some admin.
[15:05] <persia> dholbach: DMB to be admin of ~universe-contributors.  Approved by vote in a CC meeting, pending election completion.
[15:05] <dholbach> Will the release team merge be discussed in the release team meeting on Friday?
[15:05] <cjwatson> ScottK: I've made ubuntu-release an admin.
[15:05] <ScottK> cjwatson: Thanks
[15:05] <ScottK> dholbach: No meeting this Friday
[15:05] <cjwatson> persia: how come?  we have 5/7
[15:06] <dholbach> ScottK: ah ok
[15:06] <ScottK> It's not controversial though, just a matter of agreeing and doing it.
[15:06] <persia> cjwatson: We just don't currently have authority to do anything (although as above, dholbach may be able to sort that shortly)
[15:06] <cjwatson> persia: oh.  I can act on it.
[15:06] <cjwatson> I think.
[15:06] <persia> Needs CC, I thought.
[15:06]  * cjwatson looks
[15:07] <dholbach> persia: let me do it now
[15:07] <persia> But if it's TB, that would be nice.
[15:07] <persia> dholbach: Thanks.
[15:07] <cjwatson> s
[15:08] <cjwatson> persia: universe-contributors is administered by motu-council which is administered by techboard
[15:08] <geser> wasn't u-u-c delegated to the MC by the CC?
[15:08] <persia> cjwatson: Odd, but OK.  It seems like it ought be a CC thing, since it's about membership.
[15:08] <persia> geser: It was, which is why I don't understand the current model.
[15:09] <cjwatson> [TOPIC] MOTU direction (ScottK, cjwatson)
[15:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU direction (ScottK, cjwatson)
[15:09] <dholbach> persia: as member of CC I can't change owner.
[15:09] <ScottK> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Specs/LucidMOTU
[15:09] <cjwatson> we did some drafting work on this yesterday, and had some discussion
[15:09] <ScottK> Thanks to persia for doing most of the drafting work (almost all).
[15:10] <cjwatson> there's a bit of discussion yet to be had on the role of motu-council, which I believe is going to be brought up on relevant mailing lists - but I'd like not to block on it
[15:10] <ScottK> I think as a starting place for that discussion what's in the spec makes sense.
[15:11] <cjwatson> I'd like it if DMB members could look this over and confirm whether or not they're happy
[15:11] <persia> I'd like to suggest that discussion on MOTU Council be separated from discussion on MOTU.  It only makes sense to discuss MC if there is MOTU, and if so, MOTU, as then defined, is likely to have opinions beyond ours.
[15:11] <cjwatson> I realise that this was slightly short notice so if people aren't prepared then we can do it by mail
[15:12] <persia> I'm happy with it, aside from current (separate) confusions regarding the nature of delegation to delegated teams.
[15:13] <persia> But I don't think that the future of MOTU needs to block on that discussion, and would expect all docs to come in line by separate means.
[15:13] <cjwatson> soren,geser,stgraber,nixternal: do you guys want to discuss this in-band now, or out-of-band by mail?
[15:13] <soren> I was really hoping to get this done today, so I'm reading through it now.
[15:13] <ScottK> Yes.  Please.
[15:14] <geser> If I have time to read it now, then we can do it today
[15:14] <cjwatson> as long as we leave enough time for the applications :-)
[15:14]  * cjwatson gets coffee ..
[15:14] <stgraber> I'm reading through it now
[15:15] <soren> persia: While I agree that the discussion about MOTU council should be separate, I don't see how that will really make sense when the proposal specifically talks about how the MC will fit into this new world order.
[15:16] <cjwatson> we could mark the parts about the MC as pending somehow
[15:16] <persia> Marking them as pending makes sense to me.  I just think that future-of-MOTU and future-of-MC are separable discussions in some ways, and would rather focus on a good defintion for MOTU, if we are to keep it.
[15:16] <cjwatson> ScottK brought up yesterday that the MC is elected by MOTU and thus MOTU as a whole really ought to have a say in that (and what persia said above concurs, if I'm understanding correctly)
[15:16] <soren> I agree.
[15:17] <persia> cjwatson: You are understanding correctly
[15:17] <ScottK> Personally, I don't see the sense in saying we want to have a group with no governance, but OK.
[15:18] <soren> ScottK: I don't think anyone is saying that.
[15:19] <soren> The point is that the decision about the future of the MC is a separate discussion, and one that should be taken by MOTU.
[15:19] <ScottK> Fair enough.
[15:19] <ScottK> If the decision is that the stuff in the spec is draft and it's delegated to MOTU as a whole to decide it, I'm good with that.
[15:20] <cjwatson> (I'll call time on this at :30 if we aren't done before then, to allow sufficient time for the three applications)
[15:20]  * xnox is back
[15:20] <persia> ScottK: draft for just the (pending) MC bits?
[15:20] <ScottK> persia: Yes.
[15:20] <ScottK> stuff in the spec .... about mc ....
[15:22] <persia> heh.  Yes.
[15:22] <geser> do I read the current spec/draft correctly that the DMB will handle MOTU (and UUC) applications or is that to be discussed first?
[15:22] <ScottK> That's what's in the current spec.
[15:23] <cjwatson> so I had thought this was obvious based on the way we just did the DMB election, but I've had the impression not everyone shares this
[15:23] <pitti> as a small nit, "multiverse" should also be allowed in the Upload Permissions paragraph
[15:23] <ScottK> I think that it would be part of the future discussion about if there is an MC, what powers the DMB might choose to delegate to it.
[15:23] <cjwatson> pitti: agreed, I'll edit
[15:23] <persia> pitti: Yes.
[15:24] <cjwatson> I think this is the TB's power to delegate (but apparently this too is unclear ...)
[15:24] <cjwatson> (and if we get everyone to agree on the relevant delegation it may end up not mattering)
[15:24] <persia> geser: Based on the contents of the 22 Dec DMB meeting, the DMB would certainly be hearing applications for Contributing Developers, regardless of any MC role.
[15:24] <ScottK> We have 5 minutes left.
[15:25] <ScottK> Can we get some agreement on if MOTU continues to exist?
[15:25] <persia> cjwatson: Yes.  That's the delegation confusions I mentioned earlier, but that's surely completely separable, and we can clean that up when entirely resolved.
[15:25] <cjwatson> persia: yes
[15:26]  * cjwatson at least has no appetite for deleting MOTU
[15:26] <cjwatson> and I don't see how that would be a useful thing to do
[15:27] <mok0> In the section Identity Communication, there is a discussion about developer teams. Is it correct to assume that every developer MUST be a member of at least ONE team=
[15:27] <mok0> ?
[15:28] <pitti> that's true already on a very basic technical level
[15:28] <ScottK> I think that's what defines the term.
[15:28] <persia> I'd be happy to continue MOTU, so long as it is redefined based on some set of goals, rather than just "deal with universe/multiverse".
[15:28] <pitti> since LP works in terms of teams
[15:28] <ScottK> persia: Does the current spec satisfy that requirement in your opinion?
[15:28] <persia> ScottK: Yes.
[15:28] <stgraber> That spec makes a lot of sense for me and I'm fine with it, with the exception of the MC bit as discussed above which should be a separate discussion
[15:29]  * ScottK notes we are down to one minute and would really like this voted and done.
[15:29] <persia> mok0: There exist some people who are bare members of ~ubuntu-dev for various reasons, but teams are generally preferred.
[15:29] <mok0> OK yes
[15:29] <cjwatson> [VOTE] approve community-lucid-motu other than pending motu-council sections
[15:29] <MootBot> Please vote on:  approve community-lucid-motu other than pending motu-council sections.
[15:29] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[15:29] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[15:29] <geser> does the MC discussion also include "developer approvals" (from the Preserved Functions)?
[15:29] <persia> geser: Yes, combined with some TB/DMB role defintion stuff.
[15:29] <persia> +1
[15:29] <MootBot> +1 received from persia. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[15:30] <geser> who is responsible till the future of MC is clear?
[15:30] <cjwatson> does anyone in practice object to the DMB doing this?
[15:30] <ScottK> For developer approvals is DMB
[15:30] <mok0> Discussion about MC should start right after this decision is made
[15:30] <persia> I'd say it reverts to the appropriate groups delegating to the MC (CC, TB, DMB), depending on the nature of the item the MC would have done.
[15:31] <persia> mok0: Yes.
[15:31] <geser> +1
[15:31] <MootBot> +1 received from geser. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[15:31] <soren> +1
[15:31] <MootBot> +1 received from soren. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[15:32] <stgraber> +1
[15:32] <MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[15:32] <cjwatson> +1
[15:32] <MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
[15:32] <cjwatson> [ENDVOTE]
[15:32] <MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
[15:32] <mok0> I'd vote plus one if I could :)
[15:32] <persia> Who wants the action to trigger the MC discussion?
[15:32] <cjwatson> OK, excellent.  We'll bring this up at the TB meeting next week as well just to make sure all the is are dotted and such
[15:32] <ScottK> I'll take it.
[15:32] <persia> ScottK: Thanks.
[15:32] <persia> (pending TB confirmation)
[15:32] <mok0> May I suggest that the acronym MOTU be said to mean "Masters of the Unknown" until further notice?
[15:33] <geser> :)
[15:33] <ScottK> cjwatson: Would you please make an action for me.
[15:33] <highvoltage> rofl
[15:33] <mok0> It sounds cool and I'd like to be one :)
[15:33] <cjwatson> [ACTION] ScottK to trigger MC discussion
[15:33] <MootBot> ACTION received:  ScottK to trigger MC discussion
[15:33] <ScottK> Thanks.
[15:33] <cjwatson> [TOPIC] Per-package uploader: Martin-Eric Racine for xserver-xorg-video-geode
[15:33] <MootBot> New Topic:  Per-package uploader: Martin-Eric Racine for xserver-xorg-video-geode
[15:34] <persia> Um, not yet.
[15:34] <cjwatson> what did I miss?
[15:34] <cjwatson> oh
[15:34] <persia> Application Process.
[15:34] <cjwatson> bah
[15:34] <persia> (without which we can't possibly approve anyting :) )
[15:34] <cjwatson> [TOPIC] Approval of the application process for new applications
[15:34] <MootBot> New Topic:  Approval of the application process for new applications
[15:34] <cjwatson> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/ApplicationProcess
[15:34] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/ApplicationProcess
[15:35] <cjwatson> can we move straight to a vote on this?  it seems quite simple
[15:35] <persia> That page was basically cribbed from the MC process and language changed.
[15:35] <cjwatson> [VOTE] ratify https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/ApplicationProcess
[15:35] <MootBot> Please vote on:  ratify https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/ApplicationProcess.
[15:35] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[15:35] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[15:35] <persia> +1
[15:35] <MootBot> +1 received from persia. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[15:35] <geser> +1
[15:35] <MootBot> +1 received from geser. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[15:35] <soren> +1
[15:35] <MootBot> +1 received from soren. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[15:35] <cjwatson> +1
[15:35] <stgraber> +1
[15:35] <MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[15:35] <MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
[15:36] <cjwatson> [ENDVOTE]
[15:36] <MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
[15:36] <soren> Yay.
[15:36] <cjwatson> right, duly constituted and able to conduct business? :-)
[15:36] <cjwatson> [TOPIC] Per-package uploader: Martin-Eric Racine for xserver-xorg-video-geode
[15:36] <MootBot> New Topic:  Per-package uploader: Martin-Eric Racine for xserver-xorg-video-geode
[15:36] <persia> Excellent.  Might I propose that we waive any minor variations from this procedure for today's applicants?
[15:36] <cjwatson> agreed
[15:37] <cjwatson> Martin-Eric isn't here, but this application has been on the table for a very long time
[15:38] <pitti> there also was a beginning email vote from the old board, but it timed out
[15:38] <pitti> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MartinEricRacine FTR
[15:38] <geser> this is only about PPU for xserver-xorg-video-geode, right? as the applications also mentions cups-pdf
[15:39] <pitti> he applied for both
[15:39] <cjwatson> geser: Martin-Eric is already able to upload cups-pdf by virtue of motu membership
[15:39] <geser> ah
[15:39] <cjwatson> well, except in hardy, but that would go through SRU anyway
[15:42] <persia> That's probably my mistake, as I added the item to the agenda based on a mail I received, rather than by following any particular process.
[15:42] <cjwatson> I have no issues with this application; looking at the changelog, he seems to be the package's only maintainer in practice anyway, and there's an endorsement here from one of our X team
[15:42] <pitti> I have sponsored his packages to D/U for many years, no issue with them
[15:42] <pitti> he has the hardware to test, and is eager to keep it working with all U releases
[15:42] <cjwatson> Bryce's comment has a bit of a hint about SRU handling in it, but that's the SRU team's problem :-)
[15:43] <persia> Shall we move to vote, in the interest of hearing other applicants?
[15:43] <stgraber> I'm also very familiar with his work on Geode GX2 for LTSP, I've been one of his beta-tester for a while as we are quite few with the hardware ;)
[15:43] <soren> I'm happy to vote now.
[15:43] <cjwatson> [VOTE] approve Martin-Eric Racine for xserver-xorg-video-geode upload
[15:43] <MootBot> Please vote on:  approve Martin-Eric Racine for xserver-xorg-video-geode upload.
[15:43] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[15:43] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[15:43] <soren> +1
[15:43] <MootBot> +1 received from soren. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[15:43] <stgraber> +1
[15:43] <MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[15:43] <geser> +1
[15:43] <MootBot> +1 received from geser. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[15:43] <persia> +1
[15:43] <MootBot> +1 received from persia. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[15:43] <cjwatson> (apologies for persistently mangling his name, BTW, this connection is slow enough without having to try to enter UTF-8 as well)
[15:43] <cjwatson> +1
[15:43] <cjwatson> [ENDVOTE]
[15:43] <MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
[15:43] <MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
[15:44] <cjwatson> I'll implement that as soon as the meeting is done, then
[15:44] <cjwatson> [TOPIC] DmitrijsLedkovs for Ubuntu Contributing Developer
[15:44] <MootBot> New Topic:  DmitrijsLedkovs for Ubuntu Contributing Developer
[15:44]  * xnox 0/
[15:44] <cjwatson> xnox: thanks for attending
[15:45]  * xnox has a lecture right now, but it's ok =)
[15:46] <cjwatson> anyone have any questions for xnox?
[15:46]  * cjwatson guesses everyone is quickly reading the wiki :-)
[15:47] <persia> xnox: A number of your endorsers mention that you need a bit more experience.  Are there specific actions you've planned to gain that?
[15:47] <persia> heh :)
[15:47] <xnox> persia: lately I've done more syncs / merges. And I'm planning to get involved with debian qa as well.
[15:48] <xnox> I'm maintaining packaging in ~pkgcrosswire for debian and ubuntu and it does take quite a bit of time.
[15:50] <persia> xnox: What differences are there in the packages that require continued maintenance in a PPA?  Alternately, what issues have you had getting these changes applied to the commonly distributed applications?
[15:51] <xnox> dh 7 missing as well as package names changes - eg xulrunner-dev has a few names in hardy -> sid
[15:51] <xnox> hence you have to rely on less automated packaging
[15:51] <xnox> these issues were mostly sorted for ~pkgcrosswire by using cdbs & backporting debhelper. Not ideal imho.
[15:52] <persia> Ah, so ~pkgcrosswire is mostly a backports repo?
[15:53] <xnox> yes. sword & apps were out of date. The upstream approached mailing lists and asked to update them in debian & ubuntu
[15:53] <xnox> we started with packaging and decided to offer ppa for everyone cause apps in the archive where 3 years old
[15:53] <persia> Are they now up to date in lucid?
[15:54] <xnox> They are up-to date in karmic and lucid
[15:54] <xnox> and testing/squeeze
[15:54] <xnox> we are in sync =)
[15:54] <cjwatson> we're running low on time; any further questions before we move to a vote?
[15:55]  * persia is done with questions, and ready to vote
[15:55] <cjwatson> [VOTE] approve DmitrijsLedkovs for Ubuntu Contributing Developer
[15:55] <MootBot> Please vote on:  approve DmitrijsLedkovs for Ubuntu Contributing Developer.
[15:55] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[15:55] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[15:55] <cjwatson> +1
[15:55] <MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[15:55] <persia> +1
[15:55] <MootBot> +1 received from persia. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[15:55] <geser> +1
[15:55] <MootBot> +1 received from geser. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[15:55] <soren> +1
[15:55] <MootBot> +1 received from soren. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[15:55] <stgraber> +1
[15:55] <MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
[15:55] <cjwatson> [ENDVOTE]
[15:55] <MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
[15:56] <cjwatson> xnox: thanks!
[15:56] <persia> xnox: Welcome to the team.
[15:56]  * xnox Ura =)))!!!
[15:56] <xnox> thank you everyone
[15:56] <cjwatson> [TOPIC] ElliotMurphy for MOTU and ubuntuone-client, ubuntuone-storage-protocol, erlang, couchdb, desktopcouch, evolution-couchdb, couchdb-glib, libubuntuone (not yet in the archive), python-configglue, rabbitmq-server
[15:56] <MootBot> New Topic:  ElliotMurphy for MOTU and ubuntuone-client, ubuntuone-storage-protocol, erlang, couchdb, desktopcouch, evolution-couchdb, couchdb-glib, libubuntuone (not yet in the archive), python-configglue, rabbitmq-server
[15:56] <cjwatson> (phew)
[15:57] <cjwatson> anyone mind if we overrun by a few minutes?
[15:57] <statik> hello
[15:57] <geser> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ElliotMurphy/DeveloperApplication for the application page
[15:57] <cjwatson> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ElliotMurphy/DeveloperApplication
[15:57] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ElliotMurphy/DeveloperApplication
[15:57] <statik> there is a thread between persia and I, it looks like my mail to the devel-permissions list didn't make it through moderation: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2010-January/002370.html
[15:57]  * ScottK has seen statik participating in #debian-python and getting stuff into Debian.  +1 for that.
[15:58] <persia> I'd like to break this application up into chunks, if we could, as I'm certain I can't give +1 or -1 on the entirely.
[15:58] <persia> s/entirely/entirety/
[15:58] <statik> thats fine with me
[15:59] <statik> persia: i assume it's about evolution-couchdb/couchdb-glib upload rights, since I haven't uploaded those before. i'm preparing the next uploads for those packages in lucid right now (and converting to format 3.0 (quilt) at the same time)
[15:59] <statik> so i totally understand separating those out to a later time
[15:59] <persia> statik: That's part of it.  For those, I'd much rather see a PPU application from the person actually maintaining them :)
[16:02] <cjwatson> persia: any particular chunks you'd prefer?
[16:02] <cjwatson> I'm having a little bit of trouble looking through all statik's material in time, which is normally a good sign :-)
[16:03] <persia> cjwatson: MOTU, PPU for evolution-couchdb/couchdb-glib, PPU for ubuntu-one-client, ubuntuone-storage-protocol, erlang.  I don't know where to put couchdb and desktopcouch, but either of the PPU categories would be fine.  I'd like to ignore libubuntuone for now.
[16:04] <cjwatson> couchdb and desktopcouch seem to be fairly established things strongly linked to u1
[16:05] <statik> yes. i'm also co-maintaining couchdb in debian-erlang, and working to get the changes we made in ubuntu back up to debian
[16:05] <cjwatson> and Elliot's been involved in their maintenance, though also CHad
[16:05] <persia> I'm good with couchdb and desktopcouch falling into the ubuntuone-client/erlang category.
[16:05] <cjwatson> is there any appetite for an ubuntu-erlang team at the moment?
[16:06] <statik> it's something that I haven't thought too much about - the debian one is almost dead and only has one uploader
[16:06] <statik> i certainly care a lot about erlang in ubuntu
[16:06] <statik> but haven't figured out what it would take to start a team
[16:07] <cjwatson> enthusiasm and organisation, mostly :-)
[16:07] <statik> I had one other person join me with working on making the erlang history available in bzr, but thats fizzled now that the ericsson erlang team has started publishing from clearcase into github
[16:07] <cjwatson> :-(
[16:08] <statik> this is a win for erlang, and i think there's some things i can do with the git importers to make it also useful on launchpad
[16:08] <cjwatson> mm, I guess so
[16:08] <statik> yeah, daily snapshots are so much nicer than only getting tarballs flung over the fence
[16:08] <statik> we've seen bugs being caught and fixed in the daily snapshots already
[16:10] <cjwatson> any further questions before we move on with a vote on ... let's say MOTU first?
[16:11] <cjwatson> [VOTE] approve ElliotMurphy for MOTU
[16:11] <MootBot> Please vote on:  approve ElliotMurphy for MOTU.
[16:11] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[16:11] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[16:12] <persia> +0 : I like to see a broader sweep for MOTU, but all the code changes I reviewed looked excellent.
[16:12] <MootBot> Abstention received from persia. 0 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
[16:12] <iaculallad> Had the meeting for Ubuntu membership (EMEA) started already?
[16:12] <persia> iaculallad: No.
[16:12] <iaculallad> what time would it start?
[16:12] <iaculallad> @ persia: What time would it start?
[16:13] <persia> iaculallad: I don't know, but we're in the middle of another meeting just now.
[16:13] <soren> +1 (I actually thought statik was MOTU already)
[16:13] <MootBot> +1 received from soren. 1 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
[16:13] <stgraber> iaculallad: in 4 hours
[16:13] <geser> +0: I'd like to see some more sponsored uploads to be able to better judge the packaging skills
[16:14] <cjwatson> +1 : broader sweep granted, but I like Elliot's style so far and I don't anticipate problems
[16:14] <MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
[16:14] <stgraber> +0
[16:14] <MootBot> Abstention received from stgraber. 2 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 2
[16:14] <iaculallad> stgraber: That's for the EMEA region right?
[16:14] <stgraber> I'd also like seeing more sponsored uploads
[16:14] <cjwatson> geser: I think you need an extra space there for MootBot to take it
[16:14] <geser> +0
[16:14] <MootBot> Abstention received from geser. 2 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 2
[16:15] <cjwatson> [ENDVOTE]
[16:15] <MootBot> Final result is 2 for, 0 against. 3 abstained. Total: 2
[16:15] <cjwatson> uh, is that a pass or not?  vote lawyers? :-)
[16:16] <mok0> That would be a pass
[16:16] <persia> There weren't any objections, but the voting parties weren't quorate.  Maybe send an email asking for our missing members to chime in, and if none object, let the motion pass?
[16:16] <cjwatson> [ACTION] cjwatson to ask nixternal and cody-somerville for votes on statik/MOTU by mail
[16:16] <MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to ask nixternal and cody-somerville for votes on statik/MOTU by mail
[16:18] <cjwatson> [VOTE] approve ElliotMurphy for ubuntuone-client, ubuntuone-storage-protocol, erlang, couchdb, desktopcouch, python-configglue, rabbitmq-server upload
[16:18] <MootBot> Please vote on:  approve ElliotMurphy for ubuntuone-client, ubuntuone-storage-protocol, erlang, couchdb, desktopcouch, python-configglue, rabbitmq-server upload.
[16:18] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[16:18] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[16:18]  * statik holds his breath
[16:18] <cjwatson> I bundled python-configglue and rabbitmq-server there, didn't see a reason not to
[16:19] <persia> +1 : statik has a good history of work on these packages, and sufficient time to spend to make sure they are in great shape.
[16:19] <MootBot> +1 received from persia. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[16:19] <cjwatson> +1 on this with more confidence, if Elliot shouldn't upload these I'm not sure who should. :-)
[16:19] <MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[16:19] <stgraber> +1
[16:19] <MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[16:19] <persia> The bundling makes sense.  They have the same sort of history.
[16:20] <soren> +1
[16:20] <MootBot> +1 received from soren. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[16:20] <geser> +1
[16:20] <MootBot> +1 received from geser. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
[16:20] <cjwatson> [ENDVOTE]
[16:20] <MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
[16:21] <cjwatson> shall we postpone evolution-couchdb/couchdb-glib for the moment, as discussed earlier?
[16:21] <persia> Postpone?  I'm happy to vote on them, I just wanted them separate.
[16:21] <cjwatson> oh, I misunderstood
[16:21]  * soren is also happy to vote now
[16:22] <cjwatson> [VOTE] approve ElliotMurphy for evolution-couchdb, couchdb-glib upload
[16:22] <MootBot> Please vote on:  approve ElliotMurphy for evolution-couchdb, couchdb-glib upload.
[16:22] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[16:22] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[16:22] <persia> -1 : Don't apply for PPU to sponsor someone else's work, get Rodrigo to apply.
[16:22] <MootBot> -1 received from persia. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
[16:22] <cjwatson> +0 - would prefer an upload first
[16:22] <MootBot> Abstention received from cjwatson. 0 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -1
[16:22] <cjwatson> (although I don't actually expect a *problem*)
[16:23] <soren> +0 (same reasoning as cjwatson)
[16:23] <MootBot> Abstention received from soren. 0 for, 1 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now -1
[16:23] <geser> +0
[16:23] <MootBot> Abstention received from geser. 0 for, 1 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now -1
[16:23] <stgraber> +0
[16:23] <MootBot> Abstention received from stgraber. 0 for, 1 against. 4 have abstained. Count is now -1
[16:23] <cjwatson> [ENDVOTE]
[16:23] <MootBot> Final result is 0 for, 1 against. 4 abstained. Total: -1
[16:23] <persia> OK.  That can't pass, even with the other votes.
[16:23] <cjwatson> statik: OK - sorry this was a bit complicated, but at least there is no doubt on seven packages
[16:24] <cjwatson> I will implement that after the meeting
[16:24] <statik> i'm happy to reapply for this later, i think it makes sense. persia, just to be clear i'm not applying to sponsor the packaging work that rodrigo does, i'm doing packaging work myself because rodrigo is busy doing the main dev work on those libraries (which i am code reviewing). i will definitely ask rodrigo to apply for PPU as well though
[16:24] <statik> cjwatson, no problem. thanks everyone!
[16:24] <persia> statik: OK.  That is different than I understood from https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2010-January/002371.html
[16:25] <persia> statik: If you proceed with that, and are involved in the packaging for the next few, I'll change my mind quickly.
[16:25] <cjwatson> statik: I think it will help if you prepare some uploads of these yourself
[16:25] <statik> yeah, when you said that just know i realized the way i used 'sponsor' was ambiguous
[16:25] <statik> absolutely, i'm working on those packages on my laptop today
[16:26] <statik> whats the time frame to find out the results from the MOTU email vote?
[16:26] <persia> statik: We'll tie them down at the next meeting if we haven't heard, but we can probably get answers this week.
[16:27] <statik> excellent. thanks very much for staying late to consider my application
[16:27] <cjwatson> [TOPIC] AOB
[16:27] <MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
[16:27] <persia> (based on the common latencies of the individuals involved)
[16:27] <cjwatson> over time, I hope nobody has anything :-)
[16:28] <cjwatson> #endmeeting
[16:28] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:28.
[16:28] <pitti> thanks everyone
[16:28] <coolbhavi> cjwatson, when ll cyphermox_ and my application be reviewed
[16:28] <coolbhavi> ?
[16:28] <xnox``> thank you all =)
[16:28] <cjwatson> oh, I forgot to set the next chair, let's do that by mail
[16:28] <cjwatson> coolbhavi: err, it was not on the agenda
[16:28] <cjwatson> coolbhavi: could you send a reminder mail to developer-membership-board@lists.ubuntu.com, and we'll ensure that it's on the agenda for next time?
[16:29] <persia> cjwatson: Thanks for chairing today.
[16:29] <cyphermox_> coolbhavi, I'm waiting until there is a final decision for an MC or not or if the DMB will receive these applications, and apply then :)
[16:29] <cjwatson> cyphermox_: if you have a pending application, please mail the DMB about it
[16:29] <pitti> hello/close
[16:29] <pitti> sorry
[16:29] <cyphermox_> cjwatson, yes
[16:29] <coolbhavi> cjwatson, nixternal said and I sent it already
[16:30] <cjwatson> coolbhavi: OK, I apologise that it fell through the cracks; we'll make sure that doesn't happen again
[16:31] <coolbhavi> cjwatson, I sent it on Jan 28th 2nd time out of luck ll come back next week...
[16:31] <cjwatson> coolbhavi: apologies again
[16:31] <coolbhavi> cjwatson, no mention
[16:32] <cjwatson> I suspect I have some list admin to do
[16:33] <coolbhavi> cjwatson, when should I be back?
[16:33] <cyphermox_> coolbhavi, the next DMB meeting is in two weeks
[16:34] <coolbhavi> cyphermox_, isnt the MC meeting next week?
[16:35] <cyphermox_> coolbhavi, there is no MC meeting scheduled atm.
[16:36] <coolbhavi> cyphermox_, so two weeks down i ll be back
[16:36] <coolbhavi> hope 3rd time lucky :)
[16:36] <cjwatson> coolbhavi: I don't see any mail from you to the DMB
[16:36] <cjwatson> coolbhavi: did you sent it to motu-council?
[16:36] <cjwatson> *send
[16:36] <cyphermox_> cjwatson, it was sent to devel-permissions I believe
[16:37] <cjwatson> ah yes
[16:37] <coolbhavi> cjwatson, I sent it on jan 28th to devel-permissions as nixternal guided
[16:38] <cjwatson> I will make sure it is on our agenda for Feb 16
[16:38]  * cjwatson had better run and get ready for actual-work ...
[16:38] <coolbhavi> cjwatson, okay thanks
[19:07] <toabctl> hi
[19:09] <czajkowski> Aloha
[19:13] <qense> well hello
[19:24] <czajkowski> no loco team meeting??
[19:24] <qense> czajkowski: Shouldn't it have been an hour and 24 minutes ago?
[19:25] <qense> that's what my Ubuntu Fridge calendar says.
[19:25] <czajkowski> was tryong to work the calender mout
[19:25] <czajkowski> out
[19:26] <qense> maybe you've got a wrong locale setting in your browser?
[19:45] <Seveas`> Long live neighbours with unsecured wifi \o/
[19:46] <invernizzi> we all praise 3Com and Dlink!
[19:49] <qense> WEP is also doable if there is nothing unsecure near.
[19:50] <Seveas`> I prefer to stay legal
[19:50] <Seveas`> (yes, using neighbours insecure wifi is legal here)
[19:50] <qense> really?
[19:50] <qense> Hasn't that law passed yet, or has it stranded in parliament?
[19:51] <Seveas`> last I heard is that it's legal
[19:51] <qense> Those owners deserve their internet to be stolen. ;)
[19:52] <popey> it's illegal here in the uk too
[19:52] <Seveas`>  neh they don't, they're nice people :)
[19:52] <popey> hi btw :)
[19:52] <Seveas`> they don't even mind
[19:52] <Seveas`> heya
[19:52] <Viper1432> I'd prefer to think of it as "donated"...after all if they don't lock it down, aren't they inviting others to share?  :-D
[19:54] <qense> Just as those military officials sharing sensitive data with some P2P-like (Warez?) application...
[19:54] <Viper1432> further proof of the maxim: ignorance is bliss.  ;)
[19:55] <qense> Not when those people are responsible for the safety of a country.
[19:55] <Viper1432> should have prefaced my comment with <sarcasm>.  lol
[20:00] <Seveas`> forumsmatthew popey stgraber, time to get started
[20:00] <forumsmatthew> I'm here
[20:00] <popey> ola
[20:01]  * stgraber waves
[20:01] <popey> before we start
[20:01] <popey> cc is currently voting on new member for emea rmb
[20:01] <popey> will poke the cc and we should know shortly
[20:01] <Seveas`> nice
[20:01] <popey> thats all
[20:01] <Seveas`> jaap__: you're up first
[20:01] <forumsmatthew> great!
[20:01] <Seveas`> please introduce yourself
[20:03] <Seveas`> ok, no jaap__
[20:03] <Seveas`> angelabad: you're up then :)
[20:03] <angelabad> Seveas, hi!
[20:03] <jaap__> Hi
[20:03] <angelabad> ops, sorry!
[20:04] <Seveas`> ah, jaap__ is there after all
[20:04] <Seveas`> jaap__: please go ahead and introduce yourself to us
[20:04] <jaap__> Yeah, I was just interrupted by a call
[20:04] <jaap__> I'm jaap haitsma and live in the netherlands
[20:05] <jaap__> I put on the wiki page my contribution to opensource and ubuntu
[20:05] <jaap__> Can you tell me what you like to know more?
[20:05] <Seveas`> jaap__: did you contribute to ubuntu directly?
[20:06] <forumsmatthew> I'm confused. Your wiki page seems to show you have been a member since 2005-06-02. This is your page, right? https://launchpad.net/~jaap
[20:06] <Seveas`> All your wikipage shows are contributions to gnome and a few smaller upstreams
[20:06] <forumsmatthew> edit: launchpad page
[20:06] <jaap__> Yes that's my page
[20:07] <Seveas`> forumsmatthew: that doesn't show a membership of ubuntumembers
[20:07] <forumsmatthew> according to that, you have been a member a month longer than me
[20:07] <forumsmatthew> doh! need coffee
[20:07] <forumsmatthew> sorry
[20:07] <Seveas`> :)
[20:07] <Philip5> "member since" on LP is just when you registered
[20:08] <jaap__> I guess because I at least don't know that I'm an official ubuntu member
[20:08] <Seveas`> jaap__: you're not :)
[20:08] <Seveas`> jaap__: could you answer my question please?
[20:08] <jaap__> So at least I'm in the right meeting :-)
[20:09] <popey> 20:05:48 < Seveas`> jaap__: did you contribute to ubuntu directly?
[20:09] <jaap__> Sorry missed that one. To ubuntu directly I contributed mostly with bug reports, testing, some translations to Frisian and on the forums
[20:10] <jaap__> asking questions and answering some
[20:10] <Seveas`> jaap__: then please list those contributions on your wikipage, including some testimonials
[20:11] <Seveas`> As it stands, I'm -1. While I value your contributions to gnome and other upstreams greatly, Ubuntu membership is meant to be a recognition of contributions to Ubuntu itself, not its upstreams. Your wikipage shows no direct contributions, so I do not feel comfortable to give a +1.
[20:11] <jaap__> OK
[20:11] <forumsmatthew> agreed -1 for now. That could change with better documentation of work specific to Ubuntu and good testimonials
[20:11] <popey> I agree. I'm seeing a lack of sustained contribution in launchpad, and a lack of documentation on the wiki. -1 for now
[20:12] <stgraber> -1 from me too, waiting to have an improved wiki page showing more contributions to Ubuntu directly and testimonials
[20:13] <Seveas`> ok, that's -4. jaap__, please continue to contribute and try to improve your wikipage, hope to see you again soon :)
[20:13] <Seveas`> angelabad: you're up
[20:13] <jaap__> OK. If those are the rules. I thought that by contributing a lot indirectly and some directly I could qualify for membership
[20:13] <jaap__> Thanks
[20:13] <jaap__> Bye
[20:13] <angelabad> Hi, Im Angel Abad from Basque Country (spain)
[20:13] <popey> jaap__: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership details at the top out expectations
[20:14] <angelabad> Im a Debian maintainer and Debian Perl tema member
[20:14] <angelabad> i contribute to ubuntu with my debian packages, and
[20:14] <angelabad> i make spanish translation, answers and triaging some bugs
[20:15] <angelabad> in my wiki page are links with information about my packages
[20:17] <Seveas`> angelabad, how many uploads did you do direct to Ubuntu?
[20:17] <popey> I'm seeing a few questions on launchpad, a few from july '09 and a few last month.. and only a small amount of bug work so far..
[20:18] <angelabad> Seeker`, directly i have no uploads
[20:18] <angelabad> popey, there are no much questions in spanish
[20:18] <popey> ok
[20:19] <Seveas`> Do we count debian uploads as contributions to Ubuntu? I'd say yes, if the uploader also supports them actively in Ubuntu by responding to bugreports etc.
[20:19] <popey> agreed, would that not make them more motu material?
[20:20] <Seveas`> popey: do you think the bug activity is enough to consider it 'active maintenance'?
[20:20] <popey> 4 bugs
[20:20] <Seveas`> then no
[20:20] <popey> I'd certainly like to see a more sustained contribution.. unless I'm missing some detail?
[20:20] <stgraber> Are you involved with any team ? I see you are part of the bugsquad and ubuntu-es but am a bit surprised that you don't have any testimonial on your wiki page.
[20:21] <Seveas`> angelabad: unless you get some testimonials from people commenting on your contributions to Ubuntu, I don't think I can give a +1
[20:21] <Seveas`> like with jaap__, contributions to upstream are greatly appreciated, but direct contributions are what makes people ubuntu members
[20:21] <angelabad> stgraber, im member of this teams recently
[20:22] <Seveas`> (for the record: -0)
[20:22] <Seveas`> matthew pushed a wrong button?
[20:22] <Seveas`> heya :)
[20:22] <forumsmatthew> my wireless connection crashed
[20:22] <forumsmatthew> I have no idea why
[20:22] <forumsmatthew> but it's back now
[20:22] <popey> I'm going to go -0 too I'm afraid. It's hard to see the contribution on the wiki.. and I don't see a sustained contribution in launchpad..
[20:23] <Seveas`> forumsmatthew, stgraber?
[20:23] <stgraber> -0 as well. I'd have liked a few testimonials and a bit more contributions on LP.
[20:23] <forumsmatthew> I am going to -0
[20:23] <Seveas`> ok, that's a -0 combined.
[20:23] <Seveas`> Sorry angelabad, please don't let this discourage you!
[20:23] <Seveas`> toabctl: you're up next
[20:23] <toabctl> hi
[20:24] <toabctl> i'm tom from berlin/germany, use debian since Potato and ubuntu since warty. i contribute to ubuntu with bug reports and  improvements for the loco directory (loco.ubuntu.com). I linked contributions on my wiki page.
[20:24] <angelabad> ok, thanks for your care
[20:24] <toabctl> ^^ just copied to make it quick :)
[20:24] <Seveas`> toabctl: when did you start actively contributing to Ubuntu?
[20:25] <toabctl> Seveas, some bug report over the years, but most work i have done in the last months with loco-directory.
[20:25] <czajkowski> you're doing a great job on the loco directory toabctl
[20:25] <toabctl> czajkowski, thanks!
[20:25] <Seveas`> I must confess that I haven't looked at it yet
[20:26] <popey> Seveas`: its very nice, better than one big-ass wiki page!
[20:26] <Seveas`> ok
[20:26] <toabctl> popey, right! :-)
[20:27] <Seveas`> hmm, ubuntu-nl is up for reapproval this year
[20:27] <Seveas`> good to know :)
[20:27] <forumsmatthew> I'm impressed. You have some wonderful endorsements and I like what you are doing with the loco directory
[20:27] <dholbach> toabctl is also active in the ubuntu berlin team - hope he can help out with the ubuntu global jam this time again :)
[20:27] <popey> O HAI dholbach
[20:27] <dholbach> hey :)
[20:27] <Seveas`> dholbach: if you were on the emea board, would you give a +1?
[20:27] <popey> dholbach: is that an endorsement?
[20:27] <Seveas`> dholbach: also, don't fall in the canals :)
[20:28] <dholbach> I thought I added an endorsement to toabctl's wiki page?
[20:28] <popey> oh, you did
[20:28] <forumsmatthew> you did
[20:28] <popey> i have daniel blindness
[20:28] <Seveas`> :)
[20:28]  * forumsmatthew hugs dholbach 
[20:28] <forumsmatthew> just for comfort after popey's blindness toward you
[20:28] <dholbach> toabctl is a great guy, I'm happy he's part of the berlin team, incredibly happy he helped out like that with the loco directory and it's great to have lunch with him every now and then :)
[20:28]  * dholbach hugs forumsmatthew
[20:29] <Seveas`> forumsmatthew: don't you mean blindingness?
[20:29] <toabctl> dholbach, thanks!:)
[20:29] <Seveas`> +1 on toabctl
[20:29] <forumsmatthew> probably, it's been one of those days
[20:29] <forumsmatthew> I'm a definite +1
[20:29] <stgraber> +1
[20:29] <toabctl> dholbach, btw. i had indian lunch today:)
[20:29] <popey> ok, based on great testimonials,  bug work, and contributing to loco directory which is soooooo needed, +1
[20:29] <dholbach> toabctl: completely well-deserved :)
[20:29] <Seveas`> +4 it is
[20:29] <Seveas`> congrats!
[20:29] <popey> congrats toabctl !
[20:29] <Seveas`> popey: can you do lp?
[20:29] <toabctl> stgraber, i have written you an email because of LXC. you didn't answer ;)
[20:30] <popey> keep doing what you're doing
[20:30] <popey> yup
[20:30] <czajkowski> toabctl: well done!
[20:30] <Seveas`> invernizzi: you're up
[20:30] <invernizzi> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LucaInvernizzi
[20:30] <dholbach> toabctl: I'm totally up for Indian food, when I'm in Berlin again next week :)
[20:30] <invernizzi> https://edge.launchpad.net/~invernizzi
[20:30] <invernizzi> I'm Luca Invernizzi, 25yo italian student.
[20:30] <invernizzi> I'm one of the "Getting Things GNOME!" developers, I've written several plugins for that software (synchronization with rememberthemilk.com, Evolution, Tomboy support) and I do a lot of bug fixing.
[20:30] <stgraber> toabctl: oh, sorry for that, I'm quite a bit backlogged. I'll have a look.
[20:30] <invernizzi> I keep the PPA with the latest version of GTG from trunk always updated (https://edge.launchpad.net/~invernizzi/+archive/gtg-daily ), and help the people that come around in our IRC channel with questions.
[20:30] <invernizzi> In my university I'm one of the system administrators (power!) and help the students to know about Ubuntu. I'd say I've converted completely something around 20 people, and we keep counting.
[20:30] <toabctl> great! thanks czajkowski , dholbach , Seveas , popey , stgraber forumsmatthew !
[20:32] <cjohnston> invernizzi RTM plugin for gtg is great.. and speaking with him yesterday,  his upcoming plans for the plugin show much promise
[20:32] <Seveas`> -1. As with the first two candidates, Ubuntu membership is meant to be a recognition of contributions to Ubuntu. Your wikipage lists only a single upstream.
[20:32] <invernizzi> ok
[20:33] <forumsmatthew> same here. I love what you are doing, but it isn't specific to Ubuntu -1
[20:34] <popey> I'm afraid I concur, -1 here too
[20:34] <stgraber> Also a -1 from me, I like the work you do on GTG but that's one of the many upstream of Ubuntu and can't be counted as an actual Ubuntu contribution. I'll be glad to see you again when you'll have more contributions and testimonials on that wiki page
[20:34] <popey> (although I do think GTG is utterly awesome!)
[20:34] <invernizzi> ok, thank you
[20:35] <Seveas`> sorry invernizzi, please don't be discouraged. GTG is awesome :)
[20:35] <Seveas`> qense: you're up.
[20:35] <qense> ok!
[20:35] <popey> +1
[20:35] <Seveas`> +1
[20:35] <popey> very easy for me
[20:35] <Seveas`> yeah
[20:35] <qense> I shall ...
[20:35] <popey> haha
[20:35] <qense> OK, that starts good
[20:35] <qense> no introduction needed?
[20:35] <forumsmatthew> hey, let me read his pages...
[20:35] <forumsmatthew> ;)
[20:35] <Seveas`> qense, yes, introduction needed :)
[20:35] <qense> ok, here it comes:
[20:36] <Seveas`> but I've seen your activitiy for so long that I did not need to think :)
[20:36] <qense> that's flattering
[20:36] <qense> I'm Sense Hofstede, member of Ubuntu Bug Control and Ubuntu user since the last weeks of 2005 and really active in the community since 2007, when I started to do some more serious bug triaging.
[20:36] <Philip5> does that mean it's my turn? :)
[20:36] <qense> I've hung around at several places, including Ubuntu NL
[20:37] <forumsmatthew> Okay, NOW I'm +1
[20:37] <qense> Currently I'm working on Adopt-a-Package, mostly Nautilus,  other bug traiging and Ubuntu Wanted
[20:37] <qense> I'm going to give a session about Adopt-an-Upstream in the near future, btw. If you're interested, come!
[20:37] <Seveas`> Philip5: no, please be patient :)
[20:37] <stgraber> thanks for the introduction, testimonials look great and I've seen you around a few times. +1
[20:37] <popey> woop woop
[20:37] <Seveas`> ok, +4, thanks for all the contributions qense and congratulations!
[20:38] <hggdh> and I for one will cheer for qense
[20:38] <qense> thank you all!
[20:38] <bcurtiswx> Me too for the cheer
[20:38] <micahg> hggdh: +1
[20:38] <hggdh> QENSE!! QENSE!!
[20:38] <Seveas`> Philip5: *now* it's your turn :)
[20:38] <qense> :D
[20:38] <Philip5> hehe, ok
[20:38] <popey> lp done
[20:39] <Philip5> well as you can see on my wiki i'm a ubuntu user since dapper and have been hosting my own repository since then. i also am very active in the swedish loco
[20:40] <Philip5> when it comes to the repository you find it's current state on my launchpad site
[20:40] <Seveas`> Philip5: why did you choose using ppa's over uploading to Ubuntu proper?
[20:40] <Seveas`> Philip5: (unrelated) can you give a link to your profile on the ubuntu-se forum?
[20:41] <popey> Philip5: what do people mostly use the -se loco channel for? chat, support, loco 'stuff'?
[20:41] <Philip5> i have no good answer to that i'm afraid but i think that i haven't taken the time to go into the process for motu or something like that
[20:42] <Philip5> popey: all of that but it's mainly a support channel for ubuntu in swedish
[20:42] <Philip5> the same concept as the #ubuntu but in swedish and #ubuntu-se is the official swedish ubuntu channel
[20:43] <Philip5> my LP page is missleading in the part when it say it's registered as i have merged 2 accounts
[20:43] <popey> yeah, i see you renamed your ppa
[20:43] <Philip5> yes
[20:44] <Philip5> i figured it was better to use a username that is the same as my nick
[20:44] <popey> heh, i did the same
[20:44] <popey> people kept adding the wrong guy to their teams / mailing lists :)
[20:44] <Seveas`> heh
[20:44] <Philip5> but when it comes to ubuntu contribution
[20:44] <Philip5> it looks like i will take over maintainance of the 2d animation program synfig
[20:45] <Philip5> both in debian and in the next step ubuntu
[20:45] <Seveas`> I'm +1 based on loco work and cheers. PPA is a nice thing too
[20:45] <Philip5> i have been asked to do it
[20:45] <popey> golly! look at your ppa
[20:46] <forumsmatthew> The PPA is nice, but I'm going to +1 for the loco/forums work
[20:46] <Philip5> yes, many people like my ppa
[20:46] <popey> you should look at the motu track
[20:46] <popey> dholbach here can help you with that..
[20:46] <popey> anyone _that_ keen on packaging should be helping dholbach!
[20:47] <popey> however, based on cheers and loco work, +1
[20:47] <dholbach> helping the MOTU team! there's always a lot to do in Ubuntu! :)
[20:47] <popey> ..and there he is
[20:47] <stgraber> +1
[20:47] <Seveas`> popey summoned the dholbach :)
[20:47] <Seveas`> That's +4 if my calculator still works
[20:47] <Seveas`> welcome abourd Philip5!
[20:47] <Philip5> thank you guys
[20:47] <Seveas`> (ah, it's the spellchecker that failed, not the calculator...)
[20:48] <Seveas`> iaculallad: you're up next (and last)
[20:48] <Philip5> one question... do i need to do something to make the membership, mail and cloak part happen?
[20:48] <popey> nope
[20:48] <popey> yes
[20:48] <popey> kinda
[20:48] <iaculallad> Ok. Ian Ace Culallad here, from the Philippines
[20:48] <popey> Philip5: i have added you to ubuntumembers, drop by #ubuntu-irc for the cloak
[20:49] <popey> the mail should happen 'at some point'
[20:49] <Philip5> popey: allready there :)
[20:50] <Philip5> popey: ok, thanks
[20:51] <popey> haha at iaculallad email address
[20:51] <stgraber> iaculallad: Did you contribute in any other way than advocating Ubuntu ?
[20:51] <forumsmatthew> iaculallad, as I look, you haven't had much activity on the forums for more than 6 months. Even though you had quite a bit before that. Did something happen?
[20:52] <iaculallad> yes, through answering queries on launchpad and UF, submitting bug reports.
[20:52] <stgraber> currently looking at your wiki page and Launchpad, I see you've mostly been showing Ubuntu to friends/colleagues and are using it both at home and work. Other than that I see you answered a few (really not that many) questions on Launchpad.
[20:53] <iaculallad> Yes, I was quite busy getting back on my feet for my work so I never have the time visiting back my posts.
[20:53] <Seveas`> -1. Unless I am missing something, neither wiki nor launchpad provide evidence of a significant, sustained contribution to Ubuntu.
[20:53] <forumsmatthew> I'm inclined to agree. -1
[20:53] <iaculallad> Aside from showing, I had been deploying Ubuntu on servers in my line of work
[20:54] <popey> I will also -1, as we're after a sustained and significant contribtion to the project.
[20:54] <iaculallad> helping out on forums too.
[20:55] <forumsmatthew> Your last post on the forums was July 18, 2009
[20:55] <forumsmatthew> you had one in July, one in June, but haven't been regular since May 2009
[20:55] <iaculallad> yap, the last time when I was busy getting back on my feet during that time.
[20:56] <forumsmatthew> I'm only saying that we can't use forum activity to help us decide. There just hasn't been any recently.
[20:57] <Seveas`> stgraber: what's your vote?
[20:57] <stgraber> Looking at LP, I see 4 bugs, 9 translations and a bit over 50 answers. That and no other significant contribution that I can find, makes me -1 this one.
[20:57] <Seveas`> ok, that's -4
[20:57] <Seveas`> and end of meeting for us, just within the hour :)
[20:57] <popey> good, cc meeting coming right up!
[20:58] <forumsmatthew> thanks everyone! see you around
[20:58] <czajkowski> nicely done folks
[20:58] <Seveas`> popey: will that cc meeting announce who will reinforce the emea board?
[20:59] <popey> no, we're waiting on a vot
[20:59] <popey> vote
[20:59] <Seveas`> k
[20:59] <forumsmatthew> bye!
[21:00] <popey> o/
[21:00] <popey> thanks everyone!
[21:00] <dholbach> hey mako
[21:00] <dholbach> hey popey
[21:00] <smeag0l> gotta go the toilet brb
[21:00] <dholbach> Technoviking: hola
[21:00] <pleia2> hey
[21:00] <popey> well hullo
[21:00] <dholbach> heya pleia2
[21:00] <pleia2> popey: who didn't vote re: emea?
[21:00] <popey> mako
[21:01] <pleia2> ah
[21:01] <dholbach> mdz: around?
[21:01] <dholbach> hiya sabdfl
[21:01] <sabdfl> hello all
[21:01] <popey> ooo hello
[21:01] <pleia2> hello
[21:02] <dholbach> mdz' agenda item is the only one on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
[21:02] <dholbach> but I'm not sure he's around
[21:02] <mako> i'm an hour early, not an hour late, right?
[21:02] <popey> you're on time!
[21:02] <mako> oh, great :)
[21:02] <sabdfl> fancy that. a mako!
[21:02] <sabdfl> mako: heard about your great LCA talk
[21:02] <popey> also, mako could you please vote on the emea rmb thread?
[21:03] <dholbach> do we have anything apart from mdz' "Council election process, and standardization thereof"?
[21:03] <mako> give me a second to catch up
[21:03] <popey> ta
[21:03] <sabdfl> mdz's here, I think
[21:03]  * popey pokes nixternal 
[21:07] <sabdfl> Should we get started?
[21:07] <dholbach> well... afaict there's only mdz' agenda item and he didn't respond yet :)
[21:08] <dholbach> but I'm all for starting - I'm missing lunch right now ;-)
[21:08] <sabdfl> I don't have specific's on mdz's agenda item, but I believe it relates to (a) the relationship between the TB and CC
[21:08] <sabdfl> and (b) the election process for councils, which I would prefer to call a polling process, since in many cases we are essentially testing and verifying the delegation of authority, not really running an open election
[21:09] <sabdfl> the TB / CC question came up because of my seat on the TB, which is ex officio
[21:09] <mako> ok, i voted on the EMEA RMB thread
[21:09] <popey> thanks mako !
[21:09]  * highvoltage ctcp's dholbach a sandwich
[21:09] <sabdfl> originally, we sketched the TB and CC out without a clear relationship between them, iirc
[21:09] <mako> sorry about that, i didn't realize i hadn't voted :)
[21:09] <popey> np
[21:09] <sabdfl> mako was there, so can remind me :-)
[21:10] <mako> so i don't think that's was what mdz' item is about :)
[21:10] <sabdfl> i was on both of them, but delegated the chair of the TB to mdz
[21:10] <dholbach> sabdfl: in what way do you think the CC / TB relationship could be clarified?
[21:11] <mako> or mabye it is. i have had completely distinct conversations that could fall under the same heading :)
[21:11] <mako> with mdz, recently
[21:11] <sabdfl> dholbach: well, does the TB report to the CC in the same way that the Irc Council does?
[21:11] <mako> in any case, this is a fine conversation
[21:11] <sabdfl> originally, i've played the same role in both cases - nominating candidates which a poll confirmed or potentially vetoed
[21:12] <mako> sabdfl: so AIUI, in the original plan there were two "supreme" councils, the CC and the TB
[21:12] <dholbach> sabdfl: no it doesn't - my perception was that they were separate from each other
[21:12] <mako> neither was higher or lower than the other, they just had different and non-overlapping jurisdictions
[21:12] <sabdfl> and i sit on both. i've had good feedback on that (it helps to keep them aligned) and negative feedback (it's weird to have a person who's so obviously not as directly involved in #ubuntu-devel there)
[21:12] <sabdfl> mako: yes, that's my recollection too
[21:13] <sabdfl> and i think we had good reason to do that, and it's worked well too
[21:13] <mako> so any team has to answer to both. the TB for technical matters, and the CC for community matters
[21:13] <sabdfl> but it's a bit single-point-of-failure'd on me
[21:13] <mako> and if a team's work is less technical, the TB is just less involved
[21:13] <sabdfl> ah, i missed that latter point
[21:14] <sabdfl> about reporting both ways. surely if they have non-overlapping domains, that's not such a feature?
[21:15] <mako> i think in practice, it's clear who the ultimate authority is for the vast majority of questions
[21:15] <mako> and sometimes it's both
[21:16] <mako> say, delegating membership for technical contributions
[21:16] <mako> so the groups have worked together to hammer something that sort of works for everyone
[21:16] <mako> maybe that's happened a dozen times?
[21:16] <sabdfl> right. i feel the CC has plenty to think about in how some of the delegation happens there, for example the DMB / MOTU / TB / ArchiveReorg discussions
[21:16] <sabdfl> at least, my involvement there has felt like it was with a CC hat
[21:17] <mako> so i've never sat on the TB, so i've never felt this conflict particularly accutely :)
[21:17] <dholbach> I personally felt that the "ubuntu membership" part of it was CC-related and whatever had to do with upload permissions was a "TB thing"
[21:17] <dholbach> sabdfl: what felt like CC material to you?
[21:18] <sabdfl> if i got hit by a bus, i would rather have mdz nominating folks to the TB (and by proxy, a strong leader individual who was close to both Canonical and community) than the CC
[21:18] <sabdfl> dholbach: some of the subtleties of community relationship, trust, delegation etc are far, far removed from the technical details of policy, packaging, versions, tools
[21:20] <dholbach> the CC almost wasn't involved in those discussions about delegation, etc. - do you think that should've been different?
[21:20] <sabdfl> as a straw man, how about mdz and silbs and i work out a disaster recovery plan with some of those ingredients, but preserving essentially the idea that there will be *some person* who plays that role for the TB, and *some person* for the CC, where currently i'm the same person in both cases
[21:21] <sabdfl> dholbach: that's true, and it was a complex enough discussion that i think it may have been even harder with more people. but on the other hand, i think the CC has quite a lot of experience in delegation, so some patterns are obvious to us that those involved there seemed to miss
[21:22] <dholbach> right, I think I can see where you're coming from
[21:22] <mako> sabdfl, that sounds like a very reasonable thing to do
[21:22] <dholbach> yeah
[21:22] <sabdfl> separately, i think we can document the "partially overlapping jurisdictions" dictum that mako reminded us of
[21:23] <sabdfl> because i don't think there *needs* to be a strict hierarchy, just good respect between the groups
[21:23] <sabdfl> unless folks want to change that
[21:23] <mako> the hardcoding of SABDFL into the governance documents, with no fallback or other options, has always seemed suboptimal
[21:23] <mako> fixing that would be good
[21:23] <sabdfl> let's call it The Plan We Won't Ever Need
[21:23] <mako> sure :)
[21:24] <pleia2> sounds good
[21:24] <dholbach> ok :)
[21:24] <sabdfl> ok. the (b) part above, was that more what you thought mdz had in mind, mako?
[21:24] <mako> and it's a good idea to do some higher level documentation about the relationships between the two boards and about governance process in general
[21:24] <mako> if such things ever existed it would need to be rewritten anyway
[21:24] <sabdfl> as it happens, we're refreshing website content right now, so this is timely
[21:24] <mako> sabdfl, not at all :)
[21:25] <sabdfl> ok, what's your channelling of mdz then :-)
[21:25] <dholbach> it might also have been about the women's team leader appointment
[21:25] <dholbach> although the word "council" wouldn't fit in there
[21:25] <mako> i thought it was about hte ubuntu women appointment
[21:25] <sabdfl> he did weigh in on that thread, yes
[21:25] <mako> he seemed rather confused about the process
[21:25] <pleia2> there is confusion within the community about what votes and appointments for each councils and boards exist
[21:26] <pleia2> does the cc select forums council, can people vote for irc council, etc
[21:26] <mako> so we have a decent policy for delegated boards
[21:26] <pleia2> I think if they're not documented, they should be
[21:26] <dholbach> I think we discussed this at some point, trying to document the cases where we "by default" don't poll all ubuntu members or  some such
[21:26] <mako> but for smaller teams, there's no real stated process for how leadership happens
[21:26] <mako> pleia2, so i think in the case of the big subprojects (like, big enough to have a council of your own) we're in decent shape
[21:26] <mako> the problem is the vast majority of cases which don't fall into that category
[21:27] <dholbach> and mark the whole thing as guidelines, so we have the flexibility to make different decisions if it's necessary
[21:27] <mako> and, in particular, cases where it's not even clear who the membership of a team might be
[21:27] <dholbach> yeah
[21:27] <pleia2> mako: I always get a lot of questions around when loco nominations and such go out about "when/whether voting happens"
[21:27] <dholbach> like the loco council
[21:27] <pleia2> same with regional boards and such
[21:27] <mako> pleia2: that's right
[21:28] <popey> i like that it's more freeform and organic for 'lower' / 'smaller' teams
[21:28] <mako> so i tend to think that leadership is best figured out "by the group"
[21:28] <popey> it allows them to evolve their own processes
[21:28] <mako> and that you can have a team without a leader, or without a single leader
[21:28] <mako> and that we've been burned by premature leadership appointment before
[21:28] <pleia2> I do like that we allow flexibility with how teams can govern themselves
[21:28] <sabdfl> agreed. the CC should certainly reserve the right to recognise a particular leader if that will help to shake out a problem.
[21:29] <mako> absolutely
[21:29] <mako> so i think we should make it very clear that (a) teams are welcome to work out their own leadership arrangements and (b) the cc is happy to help unstick problems that arise or help create process that will fit or work
[21:30] <mako> and we can document a range of the clever and effective things that teams have done
[21:30] <sabdfl> it can often happen that you get a vocal group of troublemakers, who use their loudness to drown out others
[21:30] <sabdfl> in cases like that, we need to be able to be very firm and say "we recognise that sane person over there as the lead, period"
[21:30] <sabdfl> we do it at some risk, because other who aren't aligned with that person may/will leave
[21:30] <mako> i think in general, ubuntu teams have done a pretty good job in handling this issue
[21:30] <sabdfl> but in those cases, that's often the desired result
[21:30] <mako> or rather, these issues
[21:30] <sabdfl> yes, i agree
[21:30] <mako> so i think we have lots of good examples to point to
[21:31] <dholbach> mako: part of that sounds to me like "howto drive a team" docs which sould be great, what do you think we should try to unify/clarify/document as the CC itself?
[21:31] <sabdfl> i think it's useful to encourage teams to use rough-consensus polling
[21:31] <sabdfl> and only to escalate when there are real divides
[21:31] <sabdfl> i don't think we want to require a formal leader or specific structure
[21:31] <mako> that said, there's a weird situation where it's not even clear who members of a team are
[21:31] <sabdfl> except in the cases where we are delegating responsibility
[21:31] <mako> which sounds like it was part of the issue with ubuntu-women
[21:32] <mako> and that's one of the thing uw folks are struggling with now
[21:32] <sabdfl> the general pattern of having a leadership team / council / board, and a team of "members" below them (in the case where the CC is satisfied that membership of the team implies substantial and sustained contribution) is a good one
[21:32] <pleia2> mako: yeah
[21:32] <sabdfl> we can easily bootstrap that, though
[21:32] <sabdfl> we appoint a team to lead, with a leader, and they grow a team which is "u-w members"
[21:33] <sabdfl> in time, the u-w member help select the u-w leadership team, modulo the CC's ability to make nominations in the cases where we think that's needed
[21:33] <mako> so in the future (and this is all on reflection) i think i would feel more comfortable determining team membership than appointing leaders
[21:33] <mako> sabdfl: so that's roughly what we did :)
[21:34] <pleia2> yeah, we're working through defining a voting team now
[21:34] <sabdfl> well, we said "these folks who've come along look like a good bunch, and we think Amber looks like a good person to help chair it all, and they seem to like her too, so wahey!"
[21:34] <sabdfl> and that's just fine by me
[21:35] <czajkowski> pleia2: yes thankfully, though the issues of what makes the team has been the issue, mailing list or launchpad
[21:35] <maco> i think we decided that the lp team was who-can-vote and that we'd just remind the ml people to sign up to the lp team before voting happens
[21:36] <maco> at least, that's how our most recent vote happened
[21:36] <pleia2> and having a temporary leader to chair all of this has been helpful
[21:37] <czajkowski> pleia2: couldnt' be done without, and thanks to the cc for helping
[21:37] <czajkowski> I for one am rather thankful for that.
[21:37] <sabdfl> so this is a good result, and not a bad precedent
[21:38] <czajkowski> no. it may need some tweaking or documented, but I think it worked. also hard to judge the 1st time, it's learning curve
[21:38] <mako> in general, i don't have really any trouble with appointing temporary leadership
[21:38] <mako> although i might play some semantic game and call them stewards
[21:39] <mako> but in any case, i'd like to codify the range of what people do
[21:39] <sabdfl> that's a good term
[21:39] <sabdfl> in the early days of a good idea, there usually aren't a lot of jerks hanging around trying to influence things
[21:39] <sabdfl> because it's all work and no glory
[21:40] <sabdfl> *maybe* there was a risk of that here because of the gender branding (guys drawn to *-women for all the wrong reasons)
[21:40] <dholbach> mako: would that be a clarification of  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil/Delegation ?
[21:40] <mako> so i think documenting a range of examples of how teams handle the getting off the group and leadership issues is a good idea. this is one model we should present. and it will be nice to incorporate the general reflectiosn of uw folks on how well it worked in a few months
[21:40] <sabdfl> but in general, when we have an enthusiastic team who like one another and want to get going, it's ok to bless them
[21:40] <mako> dholbach: could be, could be a separate document
[21:40] <sabdfl> +1 to a review with the benefit of hindsight at the next UDS
[21:41] <maco> i think should probably not use the word "election" to describe appointment. resulted in too many confused people going "so when do we vote on the leader?" and having to explain that though it says election, its not really
[21:41] <mako> dholbach: i sort of think a document on "leadership options" would be good. with a delegated council as one of the options
[21:41] <pleia2> I like the idea of such a document as well
[21:41] <mako> dholbach: pair it up with the leadership COC and we have a little stable of leadership policies :)
[21:41] <sabdfl> poll is a better term - it's a testing of the waters, a taking of the pulse
[21:42] <dholbach> sabdfl: so you think we should work on such a document and review it at next UDS together?
[21:42] <sabdfl> dholbach: it sounds like a good chapter in Jono's 2nd edition to me ;-)
[21:42] <mako> sounds great
[21:42] <dholbach> haha, I'll mail him the log of the meeting then :)
[21:42] <sabdfl> "bootstrapping new teams and initiatives"
[21:43] <mako> so that we've talked about both of the issues that we think that mdz might have been wanting to raise... :)
[21:43] <dholbach> who'd like to work on a draft for such a document now?
[21:43] <mako> like, RIGHT now?
[21:43] <mako> i really want mdke to weigh in. he's some really good insight on the topic on the CC list
[21:44] <dholbach> or in the next few weeks - I was wondering if we'd take some actions from the meeting
[21:44] <mako> dholbach: i'd like to
[21:44] <sabdfl> good point, let's ask mdke to weigh in based on this log
[21:44] <dholbach> ok, I could mail mdz and mdke the log of this meeting
[21:44] <sabdfl> super.
[21:44] <dholbach> alright, I'll do that
[21:44] <sabdfl> can we wrap for now, then?
[21:44] <mako> dholbach: let's schedule a time to do something on gobby
[21:44] <dholbach> sabdfl: yep, that'd allow me to see what's left of lunch ;-)
[21:45] <mako> otherwise, i'll just put it off
[21:45] <sabdfl> hope it's tasty!
[21:45] <czajkowski> etherpad is a lot nicer
[21:45] <mako> or etherpad :)
[21:45] <dholbach> I'm sure it's going to be good :)
[21:45]  * dholbach is happy here in Portland
[21:45] <sabdfl> dholbach: hi to the gang
[21:45] <dholbach> good sprint
[21:45] <popey> \o/ etherpad
[21:45] <dholbach> sabdfl: I'll do that and pass on some hugs :)
[21:45] <sabdfl> is it free?
[21:45] <Daviey> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org \o/
[21:45] <czajkowski> sabdfl: yup
[21:45] <sabdfl> not the hugs - the pad
[21:45] <popey> heh
[21:45] <sabdfl> cool
[21:45] <popey> beat me to it Daviey
[21:45] <dholbach> haha
[21:45] <sabdfl> a.o.b.?
[21:46] <dholbach> none from me
[21:46]  * dholbach will mail mdz and mdke after lunch - see you later!
[21:46] <sabdfl> rockage all round. night / afternoon / morning / all
[21:46] <popey> o/
[21:46] <dholbach> rock on
[21:46] <sabdfl> meeting over
[21:46] <sabdfl> pleia2, czajkowski: so you're off to a good start?
[21:46] <czajkowski> sabdfl: I think so..
[21:47] <pleia2> sabdfl: I'd say so
[21:47] <pleia2> some very productive meetings lately
[21:47] <dinda> group is off to a great, renewed start :)
[21:47] <czajkowski> we've a good few things lined up between now and the end of the cycle so good progress to be made
[21:47] <sabdfl> super. hi dinda!
[21:47] <czajkowski> dinda: aloha :)
[21:48]  * dinda waves to the room
[21:48] <popey> :)
[21:48] <sabdfl> looking forward to the release, then UDS
[21:48] <sabdfl> cheers all
[21:48] <popey> mmmm UDS
[21:48] <popey> someone needs to announce that
[21:48] <popey> so people can book holiday
[21:48] <sabdfl> someone's still picking a venue, methinks :-)
[21:49] <popey> not talking personally there.. oooooh no ;)
[21:49] <czajkowski> heh
[21:49] <Daviey> popey: UDS is *hot* a holiday..   Intentionally misunderstanding people since 2010
[21:49] <czajkowski> Daviey: hot yes....
[21:49] <sabdfl> fair point. nudge clan, she's not in charge of it any more but can point you in the right direction. i saw a shortlist recently.
[21:50] <maco> Daviey: well, $work probably thinks it is :P
[21:50]  * popey gets his nudgeing keyboard out
[21:50] <czajkowski> sabdfl: it's just so folks can book time off work,, or plan for themselves to attend, more notice helps
[21:50] <czajkowski> right time for some blog posts to be done
[21:50] <highvoltage> yes even if venue is not confirmed
[21:50] <czajkowski> toodles
[21:50] <dinda> pleia2: did the wiki licensing issue just disappear altogether?
[21:51] <pleia2> dinda: good question, I think it was taken to a private discussion?
[21:51] <dinda> pleia2: ok, thanks, need to do some nudging then
[22:02] <drubin> am I late?
[22:03] <cjohnston> howdy
[22:03] <lukjad007> No one started saying anything until you did drubin
[22:07] <Akos> Hi everyone
[22:07] <lukjad007> Hey akgraner
[22:07] <cjohnston> hey Akos
[22:07] <lukjad007> Akos :P
[22:08] <cjohnston> tab fail!
[22:08] <cjohnston> i hate that lol
[22:08] <lukjad007> bodhi isn't here.
[22:08] <lukjad007> Therefore the meeting isn't happening
[22:08] <lukjad007> At least not here
[22:09] <drubin> I know.
[22:09] <drubin> Maybe they are running abit late. I would give them another few mins
[22:10] <lukjad007> Let's start the meeting and make a memorandum that everyone else must give us cookies!
[22:10] <drubin> Who else is here for the meeting? Sorry just trying to get a head count
[22:11] <cjohnston> o/
[22:11] <lukjad007> 0/
[22:11] <lukjad007> So.
[22:11] <cprofitt> #startmeeting
[22:11] <MootBot> Meeting started at 16:11. The chair is cprofitt.
[22:11] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[22:11] <cprofitt> welcome to the Beginners team meeting everyone
[22:11] <lukjad007> HEY
[22:11] <lukjad007> Heh
[22:11] <lukjad007> Hi
[22:11] <cjohnston> hello
[22:11] <cprofitt> Easwar are you here?
[22:12] <cprofitt> Seeing as Easwar is not here I will table his topic
[22:13] <cprofitt> [topic] Security Focus Group Plans for Next Year
[22:13] <MootBot> New Topic:  Security Focus Group Plans for Next Year
[22:13] <cprofitt> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Security
[22:13] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Security
[22:13] <cprofitt> I have recently taken over the FG Team lead for the Security
[22:13] <cprofitt> I want to focus on doing two things
[22:14] <cprofitt> 1.  Cleaning up and adding security pages to the wiki
[22:14] <cprofitt> on the linked page you can see a table towards the bottom
[22:14] <cprofitt> this will be run just like the Wiki team runs their summer of documentation
[22:15] <cprofitt> if you are interested in assisting the process of documenting security on the wiki please add to the table
[22:15] <cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Security
[22:15] <cprofitt> again that is the link to the page
[22:15] <lukjad007> cprofitt Okay, that looks good to me.
[22:15] <cprofitt> 2. develop courses that will contribute to the UCLP on security related topics
[22:16] <cprofitt> these could be how to chroot jail an SSH server or how to use SSH to secure transmissions between two networks
[22:17] <cprofitt> If you would like to work on courses for the UCLP please contact me via email or in the Beginners Team channel #ubuntu-beginners-team
[22:17] <cprofitt> [topic] All matters that are going to be discussed at the meeting that are of significance be sent to the mailing list at least one week prior to the meeting
[22:17] <MootBot> New Topic:  All matters that are going to be discussed at the meeting that are of significance be sent to the mailing list at least one week prior to the meeting
[22:17] <cprofitt> you are up lukjad007
[22:17] <lukjad007> Thank you
[22:17] <pedro3005> has the meeting started?
[22:17] <lukjad007> Yes
[22:18] <cprofitt> yes, it has pedro3005
[22:18] <pedro3005> ah. sorry then
[22:18] <cprofitt> no problem
[22:18] <pedro3005> so... what are you discussing?
[22:19] <lukjad007> There has been a bit of an uproar over some recent changes. I think a lot of it was because people didn't feel they had enough time to vent. And suddenly the mailing list was active. Well, I suggest that we have the discussion before the meeting, rather than during and after.
[22:19] <pleia2> I agree, I think that was what was always intended but never really happened in practice
[22:20] <pleia2> so it would be good to encourage that more strongy :)
[22:20] <cprofitt> lukjad007: that has been something we have encouraged in the past
[22:20] <lukjad007> To that end we just make it mandatory that all "big" topics that are going to be discussed at the meeting need to have *at least* one week's time on the mailing list
[22:20] <lukjad007> Anything else just gets put onto the next meeting
[22:21] <pleia2> that sounds reasonable
[22:21] <cjohnston> I'm fine with that
[22:21] <cprofitt> are we prepared to move to the next topic?
[22:21] <lukjad007> I would like to say that there seems to be very few people here today... does anyone think we should postpone anything?
[22:22] <cjohnston> -1
[22:22] <cjohnston> imo
[22:22] <cprofitt> I think we can go over what was discussed via the mailing list
[22:22] <lukjad007> Okay
[22:22] <cprofitt> [topic] Moving major decision making from IRC meetings to Launchpad votes
[22:22] <MootBot> New Topic:  Moving major decision making from IRC meetings to Launchpad votes
[22:22] <cprofitt> you again lukjad007
[22:22] <lukjad007> k.
[22:23] <lukjad007> This is another subject that is there to allow more people to have a say in the meetings. It seems that sometimes things happen and the meeting is just at the wrong time.
[22:24] <cprofitt> like today as an example
[22:24]  * pleia2 nods
[22:24] <lukjad007> If we move to launchpad and let the voting go for a little while (a matter of days, not weeks) we could let more people have more say
[22:24] <cprofitt> I would agree.
[22:24] <lukjad007> I think that 3 days for voting would be fair, though that's negotiable
[22:24] <cprofitt> I think to really move this forward we have to actually propose the change
[22:25] <cprofitt> via the mailing list
[22:25] <pleia2> me too, and I think it would encourage active use of the mailing list during the voting period and before
[22:25] <pedro3005> Agreed.
[22:25] <cjohnston> I think that if we are going to do that, then get rid of the meetings.. Everything else can be done on ML
[22:25] <lukjad007> cprofitt I did...
[22:25] <cprofitt> complete with an example of how voting would be conducted
[22:25] <cprofitt> let people see how it works
[22:25] <lukjad007> cjohnston I think the meetings are useful for personal realtime interaction and for voting on new members
[22:25] <cprofitt> then we can discuss it in a meeting... and perhaps move to a meeting
[22:26] <pleia2> lukjad007: I agree
[22:26] <cjohnston> discussions are supposed to happen in the channel and on the ML
[22:26] <pleia2> I like that membership approval still happens on irc :)
[22:26] <pleia2> and it's nice to get together in real time
[22:26] <cprofitt> well... most discussions are supposted to happen on the ML, but there is still space to allow some discussion in here
[22:26] <cprofitt> like we are doing now
[22:26] <lukjad007> pleia2 I think that membership *must* stay on IRC.
[22:26] <cjohnston> Why not vote for new members on LP too then? It's only fair that if certain votes are going to be available to everyone (via lp) not just those at the meetings that we give membership votes to everyone via lp
[22:26] <cprofitt> we just can not have deep long term discussions in the meeting
[22:27] <cprofitt> cjohnston: that is a good point and one we can adress on the ML
[22:27] <lukjad007> cprofitt May I give you my proxy for the rest of the meeting, something just came up, I'll try and get back asap
[22:27] <pedro3005> adding new members isn't a deep long term thing.
[22:27] <cprofitt> any more to add to this lukjad007 ?
[22:27] <cprofitt> +1 pedro3005
[22:27] <lukjad007> cprofitt Nope, I'm done
[22:27] <cprofitt> silver is not here
[22:27] <lukjad007> cprofitt You have my proxy, okay?
[22:27] <cprofitt> so I think we can table the other two items that are his
[22:27] <cjohnston> pedro3005: but why not give all BT members a chance to vote on the new members
[22:28] <cprofitt> is akos here
[22:28] <Akos> I am
[22:28] <cprofitt> lukjad007: would you like to tell us about akos?
[22:28] <pedro3005> cjohnston, they do. just attend the meeting. if they don't, no big deal.
[22:28] <lukjad007> cprofitt He's a very competent and well mannered padawan, I think he's ready :)
[22:29]  * Akos smiles
[22:29] <cprofitt> Akos: what is the answer?
[22:29] <cjohnston> pedro3005: then all votes in meetings.. and "they do, if they dont no big deal"
[22:29] <cjohnston> it goes both ways
[22:29] <lukjad007> I have had no issues and I think he will be a great asset to the team
[22:29] <Akos> cprofitt: Yes, I am ready (:
[22:29] <cjohnston> it goes both ways
[22:29] <pleia2> cjohnston: we can pick this discussion up on list :)
[22:29] <cprofitt> No.... the answer Akos ?
[22:29] <cjohnston> check
[22:29] <cprofitt> the answer to the ultimate question Akos
[22:29] <pedro3005> cjohnston, Big decisions should be on the LP or whatever. But as adding new members isn't much of a big decision, not everybody needs to be heard. just who attended the meeting.
[22:30] <cprofitt> pedro3005: lets table this
[22:30] <cprofitt> it is Akos time in the spotlight
[22:30] <Akos> cprofitt: I do trust myself, a Yes is closer to me than a maybe
[22:30]  * cprofitt laughs
[22:30] <lukjad007> cprofitt Just FYI, tabling something in US and tabling something in Britain mean the opposite.
[22:30] <cprofitt> Akos: I was making a geek reference no worries
[22:30] <cprofitt> does anyone else have any questions for Akos ?
[22:30] <Akos> cprofitt:i got no such training from lukjad007 :P
[22:31] <pedro3005> lukjad007, how could you? :P
[22:31] <cprofitt> or does anyone move for a vote?
[22:31] <lukjad007> Akos I thought you knew!
[22:31] <lukjad007> cprofitt Table
[22:31] <cprofitt> lukjad007: ?
[22:31] <Akos> lukjad007: I thought you can see what I knew *smirks*
[22:31] <cprofitt> move for a vote?
[22:31] <cjohnston> vote for what?
[22:31] <lukjad007> Vote for what?
[22:31] <cprofitt> Akos for member
[22:31] <pedro3005> Akos' membership
[22:32] <cprofitt> it is on our agenda
[22:32] <cprofitt> hence why he was being asked questions
[22:32]  * cjohnston makes a motion to table the membership votes due to the lack of people present to make votes.. motion to move membership votes to LP
[22:32] <cprofitt> denies cjohnston's motion
[22:32] <pedro3005> I disagree
[22:33] <cprofitt> the decision to have votes on the LP has not been adopted
[22:33] <pleia2> I don't think it's fair to change the process out from someone who is already on the agenda
[22:33] <lukjad007> Vote
[22:33] <cprofitt> hence we can not do that yet
[22:33] <cprofitt> and +1 pleia2
[22:33] <lukjad007> +1 for Akos
[22:33] <cprofitt> I will move to vote then
[22:33] <cjohnston> im making a point
[22:33] <cprofitt> [VOTE] Akost for membership
[22:33] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Akost for membership.
[22:33] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[22:33] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[22:33] <cjohnston> +1
[22:33] <MootBot> +1 received from cjohnston. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[22:33] <cprofitt> sorry about the typo
[22:33] <cprofitt> +1
[22:33] <MootBot> +1 received from cprofitt. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[22:33] <pleia2> +1
[22:33] <MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[22:34] <cprofitt> are there any more votes?
[22:34] <pedro3005> +1
[22:34] <MootBot> +1 received from pedro3005. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[22:34]  * Akos bakes the cookies
[22:34] <cprofitt> lukjad007: do you have a vote?
[22:34] <cprofitt> [ENDVOTE]
[22:34] <cjohnston> he passed already... if thats the only vote left
[22:34] <MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
[22:34] <pleia2> welcome, Akos :)
[22:34] <cprofitt> [ACTION] AKOS is a member
[22:34] <MootBot> ACTION received:  AKOS is a member
[22:35] <pedro3005> Welcome to zombocom
[22:35]  * Akos smiles wide
[22:35] <cjohnston> yay
[22:35] <Akos> thank you guys :D
[22:35] <cprofitt> [AGREED] to welcome Akos as a member
[22:35] <MootBot> AGREED received:  to welcome Akos as a member
[22:35] <highvoltage> congrats Akos
[22:35] <Akos> thy (:
[22:35] <cprofitt> #endmeeting
[22:35] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:35.
[22:36] <cprofitt> that is the end of our meeting.
[22:36] <cprofitt> thanks for coming everyone
[22:36] <Akos> that was fast
[22:36] <highvoltage> which meeting was this, btw? I didn't see it in the calender
[22:36] <cjohnston> highvoltage: beginners team
[22:36] <cjohnston> its on fridge
[22:36] <pedro3005> highvoltage, the people's front of judea meeting
[22:37] <highvoltage> cjohnston: ah right, beginners team can vote in new members?
[22:37] <highvoltage> cjohnston: or was that a vote to include him on the team?
[22:37] <pleia2> not ubuntu members, beginners team members
[22:37] <cjohnston> team
[22:38] <highvoltage> right, got it
[22:38] <drubin> highvoltage: lolz
[22:38] <stlsaint> ahhh i missed it :(
[22:39] <pedro3005> stlsaint, Silver_Fox_ , yes, you guys missed it
[22:40] <stlsaint> pedro3005: :P
[22:40] <pedro3005> stlsaint, you quit my channel! :(
[22:40] <Silver_Fox_> Missed what?
[22:41] <pedro3005> Silver_Fox_, the meeting
[22:41] <Silver_Fox_> Which meeting pedro3005 ...
[22:42] <pedro3005> Silver_Fox_, the beginners team meeting?
[22:42] <Silver_Fox_> Oh yes so I did
[22:43] <pedro3005> Silver_Fox_, yep...