[00:54] <Pici> genii: I'm trying to keep an eye on zealot, he just trolled his way to a +q in #freenode, but if you're watching #ubuntu too, you may want to keep an eye on him as well.
[00:55] <genii> Pici: I'm not strictly on-duty right now but I'll keep an eye open
[00:55] <Pici> genii: looks like Seeker` already has him
[00:55] <Pici> genii: me either, I'm in glass
[00:55] <Pici> er, class
[00:56] <genii> Gah, it begins!
[00:57] <Pici> tsimpson: ty
[00:59] <Seeker`> someone talking to him or not?
[01:00] <tsimpson> Seeker`: yes
[01:01] <Seeker`> any progress?
[01:01] <tsimpson> no
[01:01] <tsimpson> !appeals > zealot
[01:02] <Seeker`> that much fun, eh?
[01:02] <tsimpson> well, I can't repeat what he's calling me...
[01:03] <genii> Heh. I can imagine from his earlier antics
[01:03] <Seeker`> may be worth a comment in the BT then
[01:09] <tsimpson> he may come back with his IPv4 address 98.200.71.218
[02:08] <zealot> hi
[02:08] <zealot> i believe i was very unfairly banned from #ubuntu
[02:08] <zealot> a user was having problems with an install script for his video card drivers
[02:08] <zealot> and it was becuase he was using sudo to run the script
[02:08] <zealot> and i told him to su to root and run it that way
[02:08] <zealot> and everyone flipped out and banned me
[02:09] <zealot> i dont like to get into these vi vs emacs type debates
[02:09] <zealot> but i find it very strange that i would be banned over something like this
[02:11] <zealot> i mean suing to root is basic UNIX stuff
[02:11] <zealot> and they are acting like i let some big cat out of the bag
[02:12] <zealot> and now, becuase of me, all these people are going to be doing everything under their root account
[02:12] <genii> zealot: The operator who gave your ban is currently unavailable, you should try to reach them in here at a later time
[02:12] <zealot> i dont have time for that
[02:13] <zealot> im not gonna sit around trying to contact some op who likes to shoot first and ask questions later
[02:13] <genii> !appeals | zealot
[02:14] <genii> There's your current recourse then.
[02:14] <zealot> what
[02:14] <zealot> why does this channel even exist
[02:14] <zealot> if all you do
[02:14] <zealot> is tell people to go to that site
[02:14] <zealot> im not going through any appeal process
[02:14] <zealot> i would just like to be unbanned
[02:15] <zealot> im not in the mood for any bureaucratic nonsense
[02:15] <zealot> i helped a user with a problem
[02:15] <zealot> and got banned for it
[02:15] <zealot> because my solution was taking sudo out of the equation
[02:16] <zealot> and doing it the tradition unix way
[02:16] <zealot> *traditional
[02:17] <zealot> also i would greatly appreciate it
[02:17] <zealot> if you guys spoke to me directly
[02:17] <zealot> instead of using the bots
[02:17] <zealot> i find it very rude
[02:24] <zealot> yeah just ignore me
[02:24] <zealot> fucking hate this network
[04:35] <bazhang> arch troll in -ot
[04:35] <bazhang> eltimo
[05:42] <Flannel> elky: Except for the threats in query, yeah.  Apparently me knowing who he is would mean he's allowed to behave badly.
[05:42] <elky> oh. one of *that* kind of troll. yays for you.
[07:12] <Myrtti> what are the floodbots doing?
[07:12] <Flannel> dancing?
[07:13] <Flannel> Myrtti: apparently those people are being removed from exploit quarantine
[07:16] <Flannel> Myrtti: We should call the Ghostbusters
[07:16] <Myrtti> indeed
[07:18] <jussi01> I havent looked but Im guessing thats the FB's doing their job and removing bans that are a certain length old
[07:18] <Flannel> jussi01: They're also echoing "Greetings so and so, do your exploit test things" in -read-topic
[07:18] <Flannel> which is what I find odd
[07:18] <Myrtti> the nicknames make me scared
[07:19] <Flannel> Myrtti: there is no k1lbk6, only zuul.
[08:00] <jussi01> Again everyone, please, if you are active in a support channel, join #ubuntu-irc-helpers
[08:03] <Flannel> More IRC channels?
[08:04] <Flannel> jussi01: What's the point of -helpers?
[08:04] <jussi01> Flannel: please see the topic there, my very recent blog post or the announcement that is about to hit the ML
[08:05] <Flannel> psh.
[08:05] <jussi01> http://jussi01.com/?p=75
[08:05] <Flannel> Rather rude
[08:05] <jussi01> :(
[08:05] <jussi01> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcTeam/UbuntuIRCHelpers
[08:05] <Flannel> "Go *join the channel* to decide whether you want to join the channel"
[08:05] <Myrtti> would I rather be an op or just a helper
[08:06] <Myrtti> *hmmmmmm*
[08:06] <jussi01> Myrtti: why not *both*
[08:06] <Flannel> I'm really not sure I like all of this stratification and formalization of crap.
[08:07] <Myrtti> jussi01: because the discussion on the mailing list has made me think things over, and if certain things are instituted, I *will* give up my op rights
[08:07] <Flannel> The point of structure is to assist in endeavors, not to be an endeavor in and of itself.  We're getting to the point where it feels like the latter is taking over.
[08:08] <Myrtti> though, this -irc-helpers thing isn't one of the things I'd consider a reason
[08:08] <Myrtti> anyway
[08:08]  * Myrtti omnomnoms Runeberg's tart
[08:08] <jussi01> Flannel: no, I disagree. we are getting to a point where our community is getting so large there is no way we can keep people up to date without documentation.
[08:08]  * jussi01 steals one from Myrtti!
[08:09] <Flannel> jussi01: There are better ways of documenting than creating a bajillion launchpad groups and eight different channels for everything.
[08:09] <Flannel> I don't know about you, but I'm not looking forward to the day that I need to be in #ubuntu-i-help-on-wednesdays or #ubuntu-ops-for-u-and-ot-but-not-during-the-workday
[08:10] <jussi01> Flannel: hrm, so you object to a centralised way of managing access lists and a channel for co-ordination ?
[08:10] <Myrtti> jussi01: I can't fathom why we need both -irc and -irc-helpers
[08:10] <Flannel> jussi01: I object to trying to solve social problems with technical solutions.
[08:12] <Flannel> Myrtti: -irc is for operator-type issues in the greater ubuntu namespace
[08:12] <Flannel> issues/discussion
[08:13] <Mamarok> and what is #ubuntu-meta?
[08:13] <jussi01> Mamarok: where metabot hangs out :D
[08:13] <Flannel> Mamarok: a bot collecting/categorizing unanswered questions, basically.
[08:13] <Mamarok> aha
[08:13] <Myrtti> it's actually useful
[08:13] <jussi01> it is
[08:13] <Myrtti> the others...
[08:13] <Mamarok> hm, looks like I forgot to autojoin the floodbot monitor, what's the channel again for #kubuntu
[08:14] <jussi01> and ljl's new script is nice also
[08:14] <Mamarok> ?
[08:14] <jussi01> #kubuntu-ops-mointor
[08:14] <jussi01> err
[08:14] <jussi01> #kubuntu-ops-monitor
[08:14] <Mamarok> OK, thanks
[08:15] <Myrtti> you know, I soon have more of these ancillary channels than the channels they are meant to make more manageable.
[08:15] <Myrtti> no, wait.
[08:15] <Myrtti> I already do
[08:15] <Myrtti> FAIL
[08:15] <Myrtti> hm, where to start...
[08:15] <jussi01> no, thats not a fail
[08:15] <Myrtti> jussi01: your opinion, to which you are entitled to
[08:16] <Flannel> jussi01: in all honesty, I'm not sure what -irc-helpers will provide that -offtopic wouldn't also be appropriate for.
[08:17] <Flannel> All of the things listed in the blog/email are things I've done/had done/whatever in -ot
[08:18] <Flannel> And if we put it there, it'd get more visibility for helping people, which would likely create more helpers, rather than relegating these discussions to a backroom.
[08:19] <Mamarok> and why not #ubuntu-irc? It is low traffic anyway
[08:19] <jussi01> -ot is a crazy, busy, place, why would we want to put helper education and "backstage ubuntu" in there?
[08:20] <Flannel> It's not that busy.  The dull-roar of idiocracy goes away whenever real conversations/discussions/whatever are had there.
[08:21] <Flannel> jussi01: I'm not sure what sort of education or 'backstage' activities you're imagining, but I really don't see why -ot doesn't already fit the bill.
[08:21] <Myrtti> I can't understand why we couldn't use -irc for helper education and backstage ubuntu? it wouldn't be a bad idea to do cross pollination of locos and core channels, and helper education
[08:21] <Myrtti> if locos do something better than we do, then we could learn
[08:21] <Mamarok> yep, my idea, too
[08:21] <Flannel> Myrtti: irc is for operators for locos and things, just because its an empty channel doesn't mean we should claim eminent domain
[08:21] <mneptok> so ....
[08:22] <mneptok> why does #ubuntu-classroom exist for things like Open Week?
[08:22] <Mamarok> yet another channel, I already have a list that goes way beyond the channel window, with a high resolution screen :(
[08:22] <mneptok> by the logic expressed here, Open Week should just be held in #ubuntu.
[08:22] <Flannel> mneptok: Eh?
[08:22] <Mamarok> oh my, that would be completely nuts
[08:22] <mneptok> Mamarok: exactly.
[08:22] <Flannel> mneptok: Open Week is education, not support.
[08:23] <Flannel> mneptok: Stop trolling.
[08:23] <Mamarok> mneptok: but OpenWeek are classes, so classroom is logical
[08:23] <mneptok> Flannel: support, when done properly, is mostly education.
[08:24] <Flannel> mneptok: No, support is fixing issues and educating about how linux works, etc.  Open week is mostly how 'community' works, even if technically oriented
[08:24] <Myrtti> Flannel: I guess I just don't understand -irc-helpers at all then.
[08:24] <Myrtti> in fact, I don't think I understand how this community works anymore anyway, so nothing new there, then.
[08:24] <Flannel> mneptok: I wouldn't classify teaching someone to triage bugs as "technical support"
[08:25] <mneptok> Flannel: jussi01 and i ran a session on using IRC effectively. that's education, and also quite a frequent topic on #ubuntu.
[08:25] <Myrtti> we're shutting eachother off to different enclosures and preventing co-operation, spreading ourselves thin and assuming that that's the way to go.
[08:26] <Myrtti> I wouldn't be here if I wouldn't have been an op on -fi and wandered my way here so many years ago
[08:26] <Flannel> mneptok: No, it really doesn't "belong" in ubuntu, but the cost/benefit ratio is too low to move the new users elsewhere before teaching them (and its generally a short lesson)
[08:27] <Myrtti> I can't understand why we couldn't consider loco ops as helpers too. if their locos consider them apt to be operators, then it wouldn't be too far fetched to consider that they might actually be apt and intrested in being an op on core channels too
[08:27] <Flannel> mneptok: You can split hairs all you want, and find edge cases, but if you weren't looking to be contrary, you wouldn't generalize that way.
[08:27] <Myrtti> but what do I know
[08:27] <mneptok> #ubuntu-offtopic is a channel for topics that are not appropriate for a support channel. and need not be Ubuntu related. #-irc-helpers is a channel for educating interested users who are not part of the ops team to be better support providers and channel regulars. those two purposes are, in many senses, mutually exclusive.
[08:28] <jussi01> Flannel: we are looking for ways to do a few things here: 1. educate helpers. 2. build relations between helpers and ops. 3. take unecessary, non support trafic from #ubuntu. this channel does all of the above.
[08:28] <mneptok> #-irc-helpers has to be related to the functioning of #ubuntu and other support channels. "the iPad is a lame device!" is fine for -offtopic, it is not for -helpers.
[08:28] <Flannel> mneptok: What -irc-helpers was proposed as is something that *already* happens in -offtopic, splitting it off into a different channel seems wasteful
[08:29] <mneptok> Flannel: i'm only "looking to be contrary" in the sense that i don;t agree with you. not all people that disagree with you are trolls by definition.
[08:29] <jussi01> Flannel: example: I talk to mneptok and you down the pub, and we get educated. does this mean we shouldnt have a training room also, just cause there are loads of people down the pub?
[08:29] <Flannel> mneptok: No, they're not.  But you're being asinine about your proposals.
[08:30] <mneptok> Flannel: i see no reason to make this personal.
[08:32]  * Myrtti considers
[08:32] <Flannel> jussi01: It already happens in -ot, we've been looking to "revitalize" -ot anyway.  Heaven forbid 25% more traffic happens in there and DrDerek can't sit for 20 minutes listing off youtube videos uninterrupted.
[08:32] <jussi01> Flannel: so, taking my examle again, you think that we should just integrate the training room into the pub?
[08:33] <Flannel> jussi01: Just because it happens to be a pub doesn't mean you can't invite some more people there to chat about intelligent things.
[08:34] <Flannel> jussi01: LoCos educate in pubs all the time
[08:34] <Mamarok> jussi01: seriously, why nbot #ubuntu-irc? It is already low traffic
[08:34] <Mamarok> not*
[08:34] <Mamarok> I am weary of yet another channel every 2 weeks, it splits of the effort and we are already there by defautl
[08:35] <Mamarok> what's next, the #ubuntu-advanced? the -beginners already is unusable IMHO
[08:35] <Myrtti> oh boy, this makes me laugh
[08:35] <Flannel> jussi01: I can just see this turning into a "take it to -irc-helpers" comments from -ot.  People don't want to be in four channels just so they can give support and socialize.
[08:36] <Mamarok> Flannel: but in -ot would really be the wrong place
[08:36] <Flannel> (You are advocating four channels right now if they want to socialize and provide support, #u, -ot, -irc-helpers, -meta.  that's a *lot* to ask for volunteers)
[08:36] <Flannel> Mamarok: It's what the bulk of -ot used to be, ironically enough.
[08:36]  * jussi01 thinks people fail to realise how big this community is, and that we cant just have our little corner here, and do things without organisation. 
[08:36] <Mamarok> so again, why not -irc?
[08:36] <jussi01> Flannel: no its not.
[08:37] <Mamarok> jussi01: I think we don't fail to realise that at all, we are in a bazillion channels already
[08:37] <mneptok> Mamarok: if i am banned from #ubuntu-us-nm (or any other loco channel) then -irc is used for such things
[08:38] <Myrtti> oh no, we should use QUERY FOR SUCH THINGS!
[08:38] <Myrtti> SISSIES
[08:38] <Myrtti> *DING*
[08:38] <Myrtti> btw, mirctr people on #ubuntu again
[08:38] <Myrtti> !staff | ^  mirctr warriors?
[08:39] <mneptok> Myrtti: ban the ident?
[08:39] <Myrtti> mneptok: can you think of a quick way of kicking them too?
[08:40] <Myrtti> yeah.
[08:42] <mneptok> think i got 'em all
[08:42] <Myrtti> the problem with this is that I'd love to know if they are up to something or not
[08:43] <mneptok> mIRC users from Turkey? if they're not up to something, it's because they are only awaiting instructions.
[08:43] <Myrtti> oh, looking at #freenode, someone reported that they query spammed in turkis
[08:43] <Myrtti> h
[08:44] <Myrtti> [10:42] < FrozenFire> "of burasý çok sýkýcý diðer tarafa gecelim ekle >>>>>  tugce213"
[08:44] <Myrtti> told him to join #ubuntu-ops the next time to report it
[08:44]  * mneptok bats his eylashes at Myrtti 
[08:45] <Madpilot> what's the situation with ops powa in the shiny new -irc-helpers?
[08:58]  * Myrtti pours a bit of brandy in her coffee
[08:58] <Mamarok> at 10:58? wow :)
[08:58] <Madpilot> starting the day off right, Myrtti?
[08:59] <Myrtti> I think the discussion on the mailing list and here requires me to strengthen myself
[08:59]  * jussi01 wanders off for lunch
[09:00]  * Mamarok really needs a script for konversation
[09:01] <Madpilot> Myrtti, the sun's always over the yardarm somewhere, right?
[09:01] <Mamarok> my scripting abilities are very, very little
[09:01] <Myrtti> besides, if I'd be really foolhardy, I'd have some of fernet branca.
[09:01] <Myrtti> that would be HC
[09:01] <Mamarok> Myrtti: make it a hot Fernet Branca :)
[09:57] <Myrtti> one wonders what [11:56] ~~~ubuntuCEO [~bill@S010600212986be6b.vc.shawcable.net] is up to
[10:17] <Myrtti> bazhang: welcome to the wonderful world of GuadaLinex users
[10:17] <bazhang> Myrtti, hehe
[10:18] <Myrtti> I was about to mute 49.Red-80-24-67.staticIP.rima-tde.net
[10:18] <bazhang> haha
[10:19] <Myrtti> enough of this
[10:20] <Myrtti> aaaaah. blessed silence
[10:33]  * elky scrambles to touch wood.
[10:34] <jpds> elky: Why not torchwood?
[10:41] <Myrtti> anyone with floodbot fu?
[10:41] <Myrtti> they've gone bonkers
[10:41] <jussi01> Myrtti: whats needed?
[10:46] <elky> jpds, why yes being armed with a piece of flaming wood would be somewhat comforting the next time b decides to ask #f for global announce privs.
[10:46] <bazhang> -ot is good for something after all
[10:49] <Myrtti> OOO MAIL
[10:50] <elky> jpds, he's moaning about trolls now, and i'm cacking myself again
[11:49] <Myrtti> is there a common opinion on should we do guard off on the core channels?
[12:06] <Seeker`> huh? "guard off"
[12:08] <Myrtti> Seeker`: read: tell Chanserv to get out from the channel
[12:08] <Myrtti> uhoh
[12:08] <Myrtti> benhur...
[12:09] <Myrtti> that ident makes me shiver
[12:21] <tsimpson> Myrtti: you only really need guard on if you expect the channel to become empty at sometime
[12:21] <tsimpson> mostly to preserve modes and topic
[12:21] <Myrtti> tsimpson: yes, I know, which is why I asked if there is a common opinion. #xubuntu has chanserv on it.
[12:23] <tsimpson> I don't think we have a policy on it, it's up to the channel
[12:23] <tsimpson> it doesn't make much of a difference to how the channel work
[12:23] <tsimpson> +s
[12:25] <Seeker`> if there is a pote tial benefit from havibg it there and no disadvabtage, why remove it?
[13:09] <MenZa> tsimpson: there's a channel mode now to preserve that, iirc
[13:09] <MenZa> +P
[13:10] <MenZa> +P (permanent channel) This mode may only be set by freenode staff. Once set, the channel will not be deleted when it becomes empty. Additionally, the +b, +e, +I and +q lists have higher capacity to make channel forwarding easier. NOTE: Permanent channels could still be erased by catastrophic network failures.
[13:21] <tsimpson> MenZa: yeah, but that needs staff intervention
[13:23] <MenZa> tsimpson: oh sure, but that's not something we generally have problems with -- after all, we are the biggest namespace. ;)
[13:28] <Myrtti> must    not    kill     everyone      spanish
[13:33] <jussi01> Myrtti: take a break if you need it! :)
[13:35] <Myrtti> sadly, my annoyance of people who can't understand their native language enough to get the point that the channel is English only and would prefer the discussion on their native language to happen elsewhere, doesn't go away no matter how long break I take. I've got this thing with lack of reading comprehension, which I think is a bad thing for an IRC user to have, that annoys me.
[13:47] <Myrtti> oh christ
[13:53]  * MenZa hugs Myrtti 
[14:00] <Myrtti> I'm going to clear out some of the mutes
[14:00] <Pici> okay
[14:12] <Myrtti> QED.
[14:25] <christel> MenZa: +P isnt new! it was a hyperionism we decided to keep with seven, been around since forevar :)
[14:25] <jpds> #bzr has it for example.
[15:00] <MenZa> christel: sshhh
[15:11] <Pici> holllaaaaaa
[15:11] <Myrtti> STOP! HOLA TIME!
[15:11] <Pici> :D
[15:11] <Myrtti> ;___________________;
[15:11] <Pici> ._________.
[15:12] <jpds> Myrtti: You don't want to know what he just said.
[15:12]  * Myrtti weeps on jpds' shoulder
[15:13] <Myrtti> jpds: good thing google fails in translation, then
[15:13] <Pici> I was just going to say that
[15:13] <jpds> Myrtti: That's cause he got the spelling wrong too.
[15:13] <Myrtti> how come I'm not surprised
[15:14] <Myrtti> I wonder, would Portugal mind if their amount of seacoast would increase a bit, like, double?
[15:20] <Pici> blarghghghfffl
[15:20]  * Myrtti laughs hysterically
[15:21] <Myrtti> Pici: "take a break if you need it! :)"
[15:22] <Pici> I almost /removed myself for the heck of it
[15:23] <Myrtti> bets are in, how many minutes until the next HOLA TIEM? prize: an energy drink effervascent tablet!
[15:36] <Pici> Myrtti: Do you have a moment for a pm?
[15:36] <Myrtti> sure
[15:38] <jpds> Myrtti: ...
[15:39] <jpds> Myrtti: https://rt.ubuntu.com/Ticket/Display.html?id=9278
[15:39] <Myrtti> oo, scary blue screen
[15:40] <Myrtti> a scary blue login screen
[15:40] <Pici> ubuntu/ubuntu
[15:41] <Pici> hehe
[15:41] <Myrtti> it's all foreign :-( *google translate*
[15:42] <jpds> Reading guadalinex was bad enough for me.
[15:43] <Pici> How did they even find the rt@ address?
[15:44] <jpds> They didn't.
[15:45] <maco> er.. <Freenode:#ubuntu> Homely_Girl needs to find an eligible geek in west Wales! :)  <-- would it be wrong to ask her to be a little less flirtatious?
[15:45] <Pici> oh, that was to mailman
[15:45] <jpds> maco: Not when she's left, no.
[15:45] <Pici> maco: if you need to say something, probably best to do it in pm to prevent a convesation in #ubuntu about it.
[15:45] <maco> i recall her saying something like "i'll love whichever one of you guys help me" and i said "what if its not a guy?" and she said "i dont go that way" or something
[16:34] <Pici> oh dear
[17:23] <Trek> it seems that somehow someone spoofed the host name of my laptop, and spammed #ubuntu, resulting in a ban on the host name.  This causes an issue when my connection drops everysooften, preventing my alternate nickname from connecting.  any way to resolve this?
[17:26] <jpds> 17:20:34 [!] Netsplit *.net <-> *.split ← awesome.
[17:31] <Trek> repost: it seems that somehow someone spoofed the host name of my laptop, and spammed #ubuntu, resulting in a ban on the host name.  This causes an issue when my connection drops everysooften, preventing my alternate nickname from connecting.  any way to resolve this?
[17:32] <Trek> or do I go bother #ubuntu-irf?
[17:32] <Trek> or do I go bother #ubuntu-irc *?
[17:37] <Trek> repost: it seems that somehow someone spoofed the host name of my laptop, and spammed #ubuntu, resulting in a ban on the host name.  This causes an issue when my connection drops everysooften, preventing my alternate nickname from connecting.  any way to resolve this?
[17:44] <SpaceGhostC2C> Quick question, should we report the ctcp thingies from other people?
[18:42] <Seeker`> Where was the CTCP thingy sent from?
[18:47] <SpaceGhostC2C> To myself. should I paste the line?
[18:48] <SpaceGhostC2C> * Received a CTCP VERSION from frigg
[18:48] <SpaceGhostC2C> That's really all I got.
[18:52] <Pici> SpaceGhostC2C: frigg is a freenode service bot
[18:53] <SpaceGhostC2C> Pici, okay. I was just wondering. Sorry about that.
[18:53] <Pici> SpaceGhostC2C: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#freenodeconnect
[18:53] <SpaceGhostC2C> Thank you.
[19:21]  * Pici sighs
[19:23]  * MenZa hugs Pici
[20:57] <jpds> http://stats.bit.nl/munin/dmz.bit.nl/ubuntu.dmz.bit.nl-trackerstats.html
[23:12] <hunt> Hi, I tried to join #kubuntu but I get the message that I'm banned, the thing is... I've never ever been in #kubuntu before...
[23:14] <ikonia> hunt: it's because you're using the web gateway
[23:14] <ikonia> hunt: the floodbots should allow you access but it appears they have not, one moment please
[23:15] <ikonia> hunt: could you leave #ubuntu and try to join #kubuntu it should forward you to another channel
[23:17] <hunt> +ikonia: [16:16] == #kubuntu  Cannot join channel (+b) - you are banned
[23:23] <hunt> it doesnt work
[23:27] <hunt> any other advise what I could do?
[23:30] <jpds> https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+lang/tlh
[23:37] <tsimpson> hunt: try again now
[23:38] <hunt> worked thanks :)
[23:38] <tsimpson> I don't really know why it didn't, but oh well