[12:42] <noel_> khjsjkgfs
[13:51] <cjohnston> mornin
[13:57] <jussi01> cjohnston: have you any python skills?
[13:57] <cjohnston> I can spell it and i have three books so i can learn it
[13:57] <cjohnston> and a desire
[13:57] <cjohnston> heh
[13:58] <jussi01> ahh, that sounds perfect :D
[18:52] <tsimpson> fwiw, #ubuntu-irc and this channel _do_ have different purposes, this channels is for discussion/interaction for/with the people giving support in channels, #ubuntu-irc is for operator support
[18:53] <tsimpson> discussion of how support is going in #ubuntu would be offtopic in -irc, but not here
[18:53] <tsimpson> -irc can and should be used more, but not for the same purpose of this channel
[19:02] <rww> tsimpson: In my scrollback for this channel, I see stuff that would fit fine in #ubuntu-offtopic, meta-discussion about this channel (that wouldn't exist if we didn't have it), multiple support questions that belong in #ubuntu, and a discussion of Metabot. It's my (of course, less informed than some) opinion that the purpose of #ubuntu-irc could be expanded somewhat without damaging its
[19:02] <rww> usefulness.
[19:02] <tsimpson> sure, but this is still a new channel
[19:03] <tsimpson> the main purpose if it is for co-ordination for the support team
[19:03] <tsimpson> which would not be useful in -irc and probably disrupted in -ot
[19:04] <rww> I've been helping on and off in #ubuntu for about a year. I can't remember a time when I've wished there was a channel for coordinating #ubuntu support because I needed something that couldn't be dealt with in -ot or -ops.
[19:04] <erUSUL> i said it here and in the mailing list. imho having both -irc and this channel is duplication for no gain. a single channel is enough
[19:05] <rww> I understand that the channel is new, but it seems that thusfar, there doesn't seem to be a particularly large demand for it from others, either.
[19:05] <erUSUL> but that's just imho
[19:05] <jussi01> A channel doesnt get its purpose working in a week or 2, it takes sometime more.
[19:07] <rww> Was this channel created because of community demand for it? Or because there's a general view that it's needed? Or because someone decided "maybe this would be a cool idea"?
[19:07] <rww> (I'm not a neophobe, the last alternative is valid, I'm just curious)
[19:07] <erUSUL> anyway it is comforting to see that the feedback others (the potencial users of both channels being an op in #ubuntu-es and perhaps the oldest helpper of #ubuntu) and me are giving is just redirected to /dev/null
[19:10] <jussi01> erUSUL: no, feedback isnt getting redirected to dev/null, its just we want to explain to you the reasons we feel differently.
[19:11] <erUSUL> jussi01: i've heard not a single reason why merging the two channels would be such a bad idea
[19:12] <erUSUL> jussi01: you create the channel. decree what is offtopic in what channel. disregard any complain just saying this is offtopic here this is offtopic there ?
[19:14] <tsimpson> the channels serve different purposes
[19:15] <tsimpson> -irc is not for support co-ordination, -irc-helps is not for operator issues
[19:17] <erUSUL> tsimpson: ok; running again in circles. i know what you want the channels to be for. Again what is so wrong about having a channel for support co-ordination *and* for loco operators issues. too much traffic? you must be jocking
[19:17] <rww> Bot discussion and operator issues are different issues, we should create #ubuntu-bot-support for dealing with ubottu clones. Neither is getting cloaks, we need #ubuntu-cloaks. Arguing that #ubuntu-irc is only for operator issues is disingenous, because its scope can easily be changed.
[19:17] <tsimpson> erUSUL: because things get confused, operator issues and support issues going on at the same time
[19:18] <erUSUL> tsimpson: maybe you are worried about an unmanegable topic size XXDD
[19:18] <tsimpson> the support team deserve a channel, rather than shoving them into another channel
[19:19] <tsimpson> rww: and we do have #ubuntu-bots, #ubuntu-bots-team and #ubuntu-bots-devel
[19:19] <tsimpson> and we can always move cloak requests to #ubuntu-irc-council
[19:19] <tsimpson> as they are the only ones who can deal with cloak requests
[19:20] <erUSUL> ok is clear that a decission has been made by the ones that can make it. i wont waste more time in this
[19:20] <erUSUL> i do not see any helper here anyway
[19:20] <tsimpson> this channel is new, we'll bring more people here
[19:21] <rww> Again, as someone who would presumably be part of that support team, I haven't personally ever seen a need for a channel, and haven't seen others expressing the need for one.
[19:21] <rww> tsimpson: Exactly, you can change #ubuntu-irc's scope one way, and you can change it the other way too. That's my point :)
[19:22] <tsimpson> when supporting >1000 people, you don't think co-ordination is needed?
[19:22] <tsimpson> more than 1000 in multiple channels
[19:22] <jussi01> this channel isnt just for #ubuntu
[19:23] <rww> tsimpson: Not that I've seen, no. The support "team" is composed of individuals, the majority of which are clued in to what to do. Those that aren't generally either learn quickly (before they'd find this channel, probably) or get pointed the right way in PM.
[19:24] <tsimpson> you could apply that method to the motu, most would know what to do, those that don't learn quickly. but having a channel for co-ordination makes things much easier
[19:24] <tsimpson> being an active support giver will be one way to get an ubuntu membership, so we do need to monitor supporters more
[19:25]  * erUSUL ¬.¬
[19:25] <rww> tsimpson: The barrier to entry for MOTU is much higher than the barrier to entry for supporting in #ubuntu.
[19:25] <tsimpson> rww: not really, just knowledge
[19:26] <tsimpson> and having a place where people can ask support-specific questions (not support questions), helps people become better support givers and helps to give people a sense of community
[19:27] <tsimpson> they won't just be a bunch of separate individuals, who happen to give support. they'll be a group who can interact with each other and discuss issues that matter to them
[19:27] <rww> tsimpson: Yes, MOTU involves a lot more knowledge, which is not gained through ordinary usage of Ubuntu like most support knowledge is, and which is highly technical and specific in nature.
[19:29] <rww> tsimpson: I'm not sure that answering questions is complicated enough to require support-specific questions. If you know the answer to a question, you answer it. If you don't, you leave it for someone else. If nobody answers it, Metabot does a reasonable job of catching that.
[19:29] <rww> If I wanted a sense of community, that's what #ubuntu-offtopic is for.
[19:29] <tsimpson> some people are better MOTUs than others, they share that knowledge and experience and everyone benefits
[19:30] <tsimpson> the same can be for people who give support
[19:30] <rww> well, apart for being a dumping ground for stuff that doesn't fit elsewhere. which is only going to get worse by moving meta-support discussion from it.
[19:32] <rww> tsimpson: What knowledge and experience? I can measure the number of things I'd tell a potential #ubuntu person on one hand, and apart from #ubuntu-meta, they're all easily discoverable through watching #ubuntu for a couple of hours.
[19:32] <tsimpson> giving support in our channels is as valuable and substantial a contribution as packaging/developing, why should they be shoved into another channel and sidelined?
[19:32] <rww> Because packaging and developing require much more coordination than support does.
[19:34] <tsimpson> and the packaging and development teams have lots of channels
[19:34] <tsimpson> we're only creating one
[19:35] <jussi01> we are not creating #kubuntu-irc-helpers, #xubuntu-irc-helpers etc
[19:35] <rww> And I don't think it's necessary. You disagree, and I don't think we're going to change each others' minds, because this is based on perceptions, not facts.
[19:35] <tsimpson> time will tell if it will work or not
[19:36] <rww> indeed
[19:37] <jussi01> Thing is, I do beleive the support can be done better than it is being done now.. this channel is aimed at making it better
[19:42] <rww> jussi01: What's the status of this channel, anyway? The wiki page on it has UNAPPROVED DRAFT in huge letters, it doesn't appear to have been discussed on ubuntu-irc, and the IRC Council agenda is backlogged to say the least. Is it going to be discussed at some point before it's "approved", or did you (plural) decide to just create it now and be done with it?
[19:43] <rww> s/discussed on/discussed beforehand on/, I guess :)
[19:45] <jussi01> rww: the channel is approved, the wiki page isnt finished yeat, hence unapproved
[19:47] <rww> jussi01: makes sense. thanks for clarifying :)
[19:48] <jussi01> :)