[02:23] <vish> troy_s: heya...
[02:23] <vish> doesnt seem to be progressing well with the manual design . This is something that's now floating around :( > http://imagebin.ca/view/j4_DZU9B.html
[02:23] <vish> thorwil is nearly at the point of quiting
[02:24] <troy_s> vish: Well that's too bad. Hopefully something good comes out of it.
[02:27]  * vish bbiab
[02:42] <ryanprior> vish: I like that mockup. Sorry to hear thorwil's stressed.
[02:54] <troy_s> vish: How do you feel about the mock?
[02:55] <vish> troy_s: https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/msg00615.html
[02:58] <vish> hehe , thorwil thought it looked like "the twilight zone" ;p
[03:13] <troy_s> vish: That wasn't my question :)
[03:13] <vish> troy_s: hmm , i would prefer not using that ;)
[03:14] <troy_s> vish: I'd hope that if everyone agrees that they are on a team that all of the relevant bits they can bring to the table are brought.
[03:14] <troy_s> vish: Not good enough.
[03:14] <troy_s> vish: Specifically, what do you like (if anything - no shame in saying "I believe it is underwhelming") or what do you not like?
[03:16] <vish> troy_s: well the current design, is just a compromise... and the door with the lynx is wrong :/ since the light is brighter on the other side and the lynx seems to be on the darker side , it seems to give more of the wrong sense
[03:16] <vish> which is _not_ what we want to convey
[03:17] <vish> troy_s: is the need for a lynx is really desperate , we could use it with "the click" design i had pointed out
[03:17] <vish> s/is/if
[03:18] <troy_s> vish: Ok... so let's see... thus far I see you saying "Door is wrong" which, subject to artistic merit, is sort of a moot issue, agree?
[03:18] <troy_s> vish: One could probably dicker with the semantics, but by and large, there are _far_ worse issues at play. ;)
[03:19] <vish> troy_s: its more that the two elements dont fit well with each other and rather have no interaction with each other... but sure enlighten me :)
[03:19] <troy_s> vish: Agree on the point of the is the lynx necessary. Let's cut to the chase on that point though - is _that_ Lynx necessary or, at the very core of the matter, desirable?
[03:20] <troy_s> vish: In no particular order...
[03:20] <troy_s> vish: 1) Lynx is suboptimal in execution. It errs on the side of grade school simplicity / technique.
[03:21] <troy_s> vish: 2) Composition is rigid. Draw a line through the centre of gravity of the display type title. That line is the centre of gravity (roughly) of the title. It is compounded with a CoG of the door. Net sum is some sort of strange 1/3rds symmetry.
[03:23] <troy_s> vish: 3) Type pairings. The logo type for "ubuntu" is godawful at the best of times. If you are going to handcuff yourselves into using it, don't let it take centre stage as the aesthetic anchor. The type pairings of the type above and below the title are so different that you have roughly mixed red wine with fish.
[03:24]  * vish totally missed the type parings :/
[03:24] <troy_s> vish: 4) Colour. There is one point of colour. Technically you could argue the application thereof, but at the very least, one should consider that given the context of the colour and location, that there is _no_ visual flow. The visual flow for a LtR audience probably starts with the glaring 10.04, hiccups with the value shift (yellow on white probably violates a value on value guideline), then staggers into the CoF.
[03:24] <troy_s> 5) Style. There isn't any.
[03:25] <troy_s> 6) Contextual style. What does a Lynx have to do with a door in relationship to your audience. If the audience is some sort of person unfamiliar with Ubuntu, then he or she likely doesn't appreciate the Lynx for Lynx's sake. See (1) above.
[03:26]  * vish has been ranting about [6] since the beginning  :(
[03:26] <vish> no new audience will ever get it
[03:27] <troy_s> 6.1) Door motif _may_ work for the audience guessed at, but it most certainly could be more adeptly crafted.
[03:27] <troy_s> vish: 7) Palette? What is the palette doing for the audience implied? Red Orange and Yellow are certainly the trademarks of Ubuntu, but do they lead the cover in the proper direction of communication _given_ the implied audience?
[03:28] <troy_s> vish: 8) Grid. There isn't one.
[03:28] <troy_s> vish: 8.1) Grids certainly aren't mandatory, bug given this as an example, it would be hard to argue that the team couldn't make better strides starting off with one.
[03:29] <troy_s> vish: 8.2) If 'grid' is alien, Google 'publishing grid' or 'typographic grid'.
[03:29] <troy_s> vish: And now, dinner... chat in a few perhaps.
[03:29] <vish> ;)
[03:29] <troy_s> vish: If anyone says 'new user' or 'average user' slap them.
[03:29] <troy_s> vish: They don't exist. They are people with specific backgrounds and needs.
[03:30] <troy_s> vish: Those terms oversimplify them and force horrible cliches.
[03:37] <vish> hmm , i dont think using the Ubuntu colors is wrong but in the way use here , yellow to white is a bit of a mess
[03:38] <vish> used*
[03:56] <troy_s> vish: Colour should be used to drive that communication / emotion.
[03:56] <troy_s> vish: The question is - relative to the audience - is it?
[03:57] <troy_s> vish: Not an easy question to answer, and in the end, it is all guesswork. That's the core of the entire discussion. When you illustrate or paint, you make a constant series of evaluations on where to put a stroke. That's the role of the artist or designer, to deliver guesses and judgement calls.
[04:18] <vish> for the relative audience - no .. but probably we could retain a bit of the official colors for purposes of retaining branding .. that way it would be like introducing the colors to the audience  , and once they use the OS , they'd get it..
[04:18]  * vish gtg
[04:18]  * vish will catch up later
[04:21] <troy_s> vish: Agree on that point.
[06:15] <kwwii> hey kids
[10:38] <thorwil> kwwii: nena's producers listened too much to 2raumwohnung and maybe a bit goldfrapp. without getting it
[10:39] <kwwii> thorwil: no doubt
[10:40] <kwwii> Jono is really lucky I didn't post the other pics of him in that costume ;)
[10:40] <thorwil> heh
[10:40] <kwwii> he sent me an email this morning with the subject to "You bastard" and text of "you know why"
[10:41] <kwwii> :P
[10:41] <thorwil> but ... who would be his robin?
[10:41] <kwwii> his wife ;)
[10:45] <thorwil> pah, she could be batwoman or catwoman
[10:46] <thorwil> although ... http://www.completelybonkers.co.uk/images/888897%20XL.jpg
[10:46] <darkmatter> but that would undermine the importance of gay love
[10:48] <thorwil> http://meandtheblueskies.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/batman.jpg
[10:49] <darkmatter> my point exactly
[10:56] <kwwii> lol
[12:56] <darkmatter> vish: I almost feinted. after 10 years of bitching/moaning/ranting/raving until I turned blue in the face, someone actually started making a user account/login prefs manager 'somewhat' similar to what I've suggested :o
[12:58] <vish> darkmatter: there ,there , dont worry , you can still keep bitching/moaning/ranting/raving ;)
[12:58] <darkmatter> vish: lol and https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/UserAccountDialog
[12:59] <darkmatter> pics are at the bottom
[12:59] <vish> oh , yeah , mcleasn had been blogged about that
[13:01] <vish> s/been/ /
[13:30] <zniavre> hello / bonjour
[13:30] <zniavre> what do you think about the Lucidity gtk mockup ?
[17:19] <troy_s> thorwil: Greets.
[17:20] <thorwil> troy_s: funny, i was just about to paste you something :)
[17:20] <troy_s> thorwil: Synergy. How are things?
[17:20] <thorwil> troy_s: http://imagebin.ca/img/j4_DZU9B.png
[17:21] <troy_s> thorwil: Yeah vish showed me that yesterday.
[17:21] <thorwil> heh
[17:21] <thorwil> troy_s: the creator of that even claimed to have taken the stuff on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Artwork into account
[17:21] <troy_s> thorwil: It just seems like more of the same circles. Problem with culture, not with abilities (although granted, that too is a problem)
[17:23] <troy_s> thorwil: As wild speculation, it seems every step wanders. Adding elements isn't a horribly good solution when _every single element_ needs better execution.
[17:25] <thorwil> troy_s: i'm more or less waiting for the project leader to take sides, but as luck has it, he currently has connectivity problems
[17:26] <troy_s> thorwil: That isn't terribly useful either. This shouldn't be about sides.
[17:26] <troy_s> thorwil: If you have a clear goal (something that fleshing out detail will actually _hinder_ for most participants), the solution should be accepted.
[17:27] <troy_s> thorwil: It's the classic fundamental flaw - evaluating work based on the consumption, not on the creation.
[17:30] <thorwil> troy_s: but it is about sides, because there's a clash between following a process, where you first define the what and how vs an approach of just doing something and not bothering about a consensus on abstract terms
[17:31] <troy_s> thorwil: But quite frankly, anyone that looks at that Lynx and approves is questionable: Is it well executed craftsmanship? Does it communicate something fitting for the goal given the audience?
[17:31] <troy_s> thorwil: My personal issue is that the Lynx, no matter how fitting, is just suffering from horrendous execution. It, as much as I hate to say it, is about grade three level artistry.
[17:32] <troy_s> thorwil: (Somewhere in the zone of an 8-10 year old output)
[17:32] <thorwil> troy_s: yeah exactly. almost everyone who did say something about the lynx is questionable
[17:33] <troy_s> thorwil: IF you look at that Lynx and say 'I was utterly blown away' you are 1) Either completely cheerleading at that point - a useful quality in some circumstances one could guess. 2) Delusional.
[17:33] <thorwil> troy_s: Benjamin managed to both call for "professional" quality and calling that lynx awesome
[17:33] <troy_s> thorwil: Enough with the soft gloves... we have too many soft gloves.
[17:34] <troy_s> thorwil: Well there you go. Wrong guy to be evaluating anything. Worst case.
[17:34] <troy_s> thorwil: It is _not_ awesome, and that is just the tip of the iceberg. The tougher questions are all cloudy from that point on.
[17:35] <troy_s> thorwil: Let's assume an extremely artistic Lynx, is that optimal? Might be... might be not. Those are the real questions. But if you can't get past a simple analysis of work, you are doomed to fail.
[17:35] <troy_s> thorwil: Problem is too, that all of the 'creators' are playing a role. You don't have an arbitrator. That's problematic.
[17:36] <thorwil> troy_s: can't wrangle the project leadership out of his hands. wouldn't want to. that's why i said i'm waiting for his reaction to recent discussions
[17:36] <troy_s> thorwil: As clearly there is no respect amongst the participants to gravitate to a single person as arbitrator of worth.
[17:36] <troy_s> thorwil: Problem is I don't think anyone sees the value of the leadership.
[17:37] <troy_s> thorwil: If your leader makes poor choices, it is a moot point. Yes you pick a direction. Yes you make 'progress', but you still end up with GIMP.
[17:37] <troy_s> thorwil: And I have no idea what 'professional' means.
[17:41] <thorwil> troy_s: i think people who don't handle such terms with any care frequently mean, when the speak of "professional" quality: made with a level of craftsmanship that implies the creator must have spend so much time doing this kind of thing and/or has such a "talent", that he likely earns money with it, or could earn money with it
[17:41] <thorwil> needless to say, i hate the misuse of that term. belongs in a list next to "intuitive"
[17:41] <troy_s> thorwil: It's yet another empty and vacuous term. Professionals were _paid_ to create the packaging http://blog.canonical.com/?p=18. Professionals developed https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DIYMarketing?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=ubuntu_cd_810.pdf.
[17:42] <troy_s> thorwil: Indeed it does.
[17:42] <troy_s> thorwil: It is a long list... complete with nasty darker terms such as "average user" or like stupidity.
[17:43] <troy_s> thorwil: Craftsmanship is a more useful word. The biggest problem with most is that Inkscape creates perfect curves and precision lines.
[17:43] <troy_s> thorwil: "Clean and easy on the eyes" tripe.
[17:43] <thorwil> i saw an average user just recently. sadly with the 0.3 part of his 1.3 children. nasty to look at
[17:46] <troy_s> thorwil: What shocks me is that you end up with people that would readily acknowledge that their illustration / drawing skills are ... mediocre at best, and yet so many willingly pick up Inkscape and start 'working'.
[17:46] <troy_s> thorwil: It's not going to get better in an application. Period.
[17:46] <troy_s> thorwil: All of the same guidelines and principles apply.
[17:48] <thorwil> troy_s: when some of my fellow industrial design students picked up 3D apps and tried using them early in the process, we saw lots of "minimalistic" designs, decidedly unlike the things we tended to sketch ...
[17:51] <troy_s> thorwil: Hate to say it, but minimalism is a byproduct of Modernism. Modernism is dead.
[17:52] <troy_s> thorwil: Has been for a while...
[17:52] <thorwil> troy_s: sheesh, get down. minimalist as in: very obviously based on primitives
[17:53] <troy_s> thorwil: Really? Even _Microsoft_ sees it in some capacities - http://www.technobuzz.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/offical-windows-7-wallpaper-technobuzz-net-3.jpg
[17:53] <thorwil> just the things that happened to be easy to do
[17:54] <troy_s> thorwil: It's been done like dinner for some time. A few companies still try to peddle it, but it's pretty stale. Postmodernism has been around since _I_ went to University... and that's a few years ago now. It's hitting mainstream in many ways.
[17:54] <thorwil> you're still on a tangent
[17:54] <troy_s> thorwil: Yes, _we_ are.
[17:55] <troy_s> thorwil: ;)
[17:56] <troy_s> thorwil: I think the picture becomes pretty clear when the ability to 'design' something in a collaborative setting is trumped by misplaced (and questionable) subjectivity.
[17:56] <troy_s> thorwil: Pentagram does it. We don't. Yet.
[17:57] <thorwil> troy_s: i would love to see you hold a talk about (post)modernism for a floss crowd
[17:57] <troy_s> thorwil: LOL (You see this one? http://www.ghacks.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/windows_7_wallpaper-500x312.jpg)
[17:58] <thorwil> afterwards a talk about the importance of audience ;)
[17:58] <troy_s> thorwil: Those two are default wallpapers. The dire desperation has actually yielded some innovation at starchy old MS.
[17:58] <troy_s> thorwil: Including the Zune HD design, which is nothing short of beautiful (interface wise - and as you well know, I'm pained to suggest anything MS for anything as 'beautiful' lol)
[18:00] <troy_s> thorwil: Problem is, pomo still requires craftsmanship.
[18:00] <troy_s> thorwil: It isn't like you can just throw crap at the wall.
[18:00] <thorwil> pomo?
[18:01] <troy_s> thorwil: PostModernism. http://konigi.com/notebook/typography-ui-zune-hd
[18:01] <troy_s> thorwil: That typography work is pretty bloody stunning.
[18:01] <thorwil> http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/cultural/northamerica/pomo.html
[18:01] <troy_s> thorwil: It's a very beautiful bit of work.
[18:02] <troy_s> thorwil: If they get to the point where music is playing you will see it.
[18:02] <troy_s> thorwil: It's pretty stunning.
[18:02] <thorwil> troy_s: already know it, thanks to that always preaching canadian guy ;>
[18:02] <troy_s> thorwil: Lol.
[18:02] <troy_s> thorwil: Anyways, I'm off.
[18:03] <thorwil> cya
[18:03] <troy_s> thorwil: Got to shout, because people is deaf around here.
[18:03] <troy_s> thorwil: Keep the chin up and see if you can suss out a solution with the guys cranking the work out.
[18:03] <troy_s> thorwil: And avoid that asstastic Ubuntu title font in all ways. If you are going to use it, hide it. Bury it.
[18:04] <troy_s> thorwil: It's just nasty.
[20:05] <thorwil> cute. font matrix in karmic has dysfunctional checkboxes, so you can't actually disable fonts. just a part of core functionality, so why bother?
[20:08]  * thorwil builds newer version from source