[03:45] <godbyk> humphreybc: ping
[03:46] <humphreybc> godbyk: pong
[03:46] <godbyk> humphreybc: I edited your installation chapter a little to test out the new \screenshotTODO command.  You can check it out.
[03:46] <humphreybc> cool have you pushed it/
[03:47] <godbyk> It'll add "MISSING SCREENSHOT / Screenshot description" to the PDF so it's obvious that something is missing.
[03:47] <godbyk> It also generates a list of the missing screenshots and outputs them to screenshots.log file.
[03:47] <godbyk> Yep, it's pushed.
[03:48] <humphreybc> cool
[04:26] <humphreybc> godbyk: that looks great!
[04:26] <godbyk> humphreybc: thanks.
[04:26] <godbyk> I'll make commands to insert the screenshots after we've got some to play with.
[04:26] <humphreybc> if you could email the ML with instructions on how to use the command so authors can put it in, then that'll be great :)
[04:27] <godbyk> Sure
[04:29] <vish> humphreybc: hey.. did you send out reminders that the title page was updated?
[04:31] <godbyk> vish: It automatically incorporates it into the PDF.
[04:33] <vish> godbyk: yeah... i was mentioning the blogs/sites that humphreybc had sent out the old one [he had asked me to update the text and forgotten that i had updated it]
[04:33] <godbyk> vish: Ah, I see.
[04:35] <vish> godbyk: timezones suck fwiw :/   i received humphreybc 's mail at 4am and still i made sure it was done by 4pm somehow humphreybc had missed the branch update
[04:36] <godbyk> Yeah, time zones are a pain.
[04:45] <humphreybc> vish: yep should be updated soon
[07:18] <godbyk> humphreybc: ping
[07:18] <humphreybc> ping
[07:18] <humphreybc> wait
[07:18] <humphreybc> pong :)
[07:19] <humphreybc> godbyk: what's up?
[07:19] <godbyk> lol
[07:20] <godbyk> I was just going to ask if it made more sense to do the ground control tutorial before the latex tutorial.
[07:20] <godbyk> that way people could kind of follow along each step as we explained it and walk them through getting started.
[07:24] <humphreybc> yeah I want to do that but then i'd have two sessions in a row
[07:24] <humphreybc> actually
[07:24] <humphreybc> that should be okay
[07:25] <humphreybc> i didn't want to have two sessions in a row in case one of mine goes over an hour and screws the whole schedule up
[07:25] <humphreybc> but it's only the introduction
[07:25] <humphreybc> i'll change stuff around now
[07:26] <godbyk> okay.
[07:34] <humphreybc> done
[07:40] <godbyk> cool.
[07:55] <humphreybc> I'm thinking we should change the group to restricted?
[07:55] <humphreybc> instead of open?
[07:55] <humphreybc> because there are a lot of people still joining who aren't really doing much
[07:56] <godbyk> Does it hurt anything?  I mean, are they doing any damage, or does it hurt to have people sign up and not do anything?
[07:57] <humphreybc> true, good point
[07:58] <humphreybc> it does make our team look disproportionately large though :P
[07:59] <godbyk> Heh.. that's true.
[07:59] <godbyk> 253 members.. wow!
[08:01] <humphreybc> yea
[08:01] <humphreybc> lol
[08:01] <humphreybc> i don't think we have 253 people actually working on it
[08:01] <humphreybc> we have 120 fans in our facebook group too which is awesome
[08:02] <humphreybc> what's up with this branch merge? https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/main/+merge/19149
[08:02] <humphreybc> and what ever happened to manualbot
[08:02] <humphreybc> :P
[08:03] <godbyk> I'm not sure what that means.  Hmm...
[08:06] <godbyk> I think they're trying to take the updated main branch stuff and merge it into their own translated branch.
[08:06] <godbyk> but I'm not sure
[08:07] <humphreybc> lol
[08:07] <humphreybc> me neither O.o
[08:07] <humphreybc> I added in some more screenshot ToDos
[08:07] <humphreybc> do you want me to make an 800 x 600 screenshot placeholder image for you to fiddle with?
[08:08] <godbyk> Can you just take a few screenshots that we can use as examples?
[08:09] <humphreybc> i could but i don't have lucid in a Vbox
[08:09] <godbyk> Maybe grab 'em at different resolutions, too.  So we can see how big they all are.
[08:09] <humphreybc> Vbox doesn't like my custom kernel
[08:09] <humphreybc> i was just going to whip some up in photoshop
[08:09] <humphreybc> just template things
[08:09] <humphreybc> but actual shots would make sense
[08:10] <godbyk> Why not just take some of your own desktop at the different resolutions?
[08:10] <humphreybc> heh righto
[08:10] <humphreybc> my max res is 1280x800
[08:10] <humphreybc> squares?
[08:10] <godbyk> We should get some realistic test cases for testing?
[08:11] <godbyk> squares?
[08:11] <humphreybc> well a 16:10 screenshot would be too wide, no?
[08:13] <godbyk> Oh.. well, 800x600 is a 4:3 ratio.
[08:13] <godbyk> Not sure if it matters too much at this stage.
[08:14] <humphreybc> okay i've taken three, one of the full desktop, one of just one window, and one small one of just a dialog box
[08:16] <humphreybc> http://humphreybc.homeip.net/files/sampleshots.zip
[08:17] <humphreybc> try those out for size in chapter 1
[08:17] <godbyk> My desktop is 3200x1600 stretched across two monitors, so it's a bit more difficult to take normal-looking screenshots. :)
[08:17] <humphreybc> we need someone with a 4:3 monitor
[08:17] <godbyk> I've got 'em downloaded
[08:18] <humphreybc> sweet
[08:18] <humphreybc> so i suppose all you'd need is a command that imports them, puts them in the center, gives a bit of padding and a 2px border
[08:19] <humphreybc> probably just under black for the border
[08:19] <godbyk> Will they need captions or be cross-referenced (e.g., "See Figure 1.")?
[08:20] <humphreybc> captions i think
[08:20] <humphreybc> so yeah that too
[08:20] <humphreybc> maybe something like
[08:20] <humphreybc> "Figure 1: The default Ubuntu GNOME desktop"
[08:20] <humphreybc> and then we can cross reference too
[08:20] <humphreybc> so "As you can see in figure 1 below, Ubuntu uses GNOME for..."
[08:21] <godbyk> Okay, so with LaTeX there's something that can be initially a little confusing about figures.
[08:22] <godbyk> Do we want the figures to be exactly where you put them in the text or allow them to float (that is to move around on the page to wherever they look best)?
[08:22] <godbyk> (Where 'look best' is defined by LaTeX.)
[08:22] <humphreybc> hmm
[08:22] <godbyk> There are pros and cons to both options.
[08:22] <humphreybc> i think we'd want control over placement
[08:22] <humphreybc> what do you think?
[08:23] <humphreybc> can you set some rules for what latex thinks is best?
[08:23] <godbyk> If you say you want to control the placement, then you'll end up with (potentially) lots of white space around to fill out the page.
[08:23] <godbyk> You can make suggestions to LaTeX.
[08:23] <humphreybc> well, whatever you think will look best
[08:23] <godbyk> So you can say, "LaTeX, I'd prefer that you place the image right here, but if you don't feel up to it, try the bottom of the page and then the top of the page."
[08:23] <humphreybc> you know more about it than I
[08:24] <humphreybc> well that sounds good
[08:24] <humphreybc> what would be the reasons for it not feeling up to it? bad day at work? nagging wife?
[08:24] <godbyk> It seems that way sometimes.
[08:24] <humphreybc> so it's inexplicable?
[08:24] <godbyk> It likes to have a minimum amount of text on each page, for instance.
[08:25] <godbyk> So if putting your image there means there's not enough text on the page, the image may get bumped.
[08:25] <godbyk> We can tweak those parameters, but there's still a little quirkiness sometimes.
[08:25] <humphreybc> ah okay
[08:25] <godbyk> Not really inexplicable, just *difficult* to explain. :-)
[08:26] <humphreybc> and i suppose stuff like having sentences not jump over the page etc will have to be done by hand when everything's set?
[08:26] <godbyk> http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/main.pdf
[08:26] <godbyk> I had it scale the images to fill the text-width.
[08:27] <godbyk> But we won't really want to do that for all the images (like small dialog boxes).
[08:27] <godbyk> What do you mean 'sentences not jump over the page'?
[08:28] <humphreybc> you know like page breaks in bad places
[08:28] <humphreybc> like the end of the prologue has one bullet point on the last page, and then about 5/6 of it is white space
[08:29] <humphreybc> wow, 1mb with 3 images?
[08:29]  * godbyk looks at the prologue
[08:30] <godbyk> You mean on page xi and xii?
[08:31] <godbyk> Where there are five lines that are on page xii?
[08:33] <humphreybc> apparently the PDF document you gave me is damaged
[08:34] <godbyk> It is?
[08:34] <godbyk> Hmm.
[08:34] <godbyk> I'll regenerate it and upload it again.
[08:35] <godbyk> humphreybc: Try it again.
[08:35] <godbyk> Hey, thorwil
[08:35] <thorwil> hi godbyk
[08:37] <godbyk> humphreybc and I are just playing around with some screenshot stuff.
[08:37] <godbyk> humphreybc: Did that new pdf work okay?
[08:37] <humphreybc> hold up
[08:38] <godbyk> k
[08:38] <humphreybc> is it your home server?
[08:38] <godbyk> http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/main.pdf
[08:38] <godbyk> It's my web space, yeah.
[08:40] <humphreybc> those screenshots aren't too bad. the resized ones look bad tho
[08:40] <humphreybc> latex/evince resizing of screenshots is horrid
[08:40] <humphreybc> or images in general
[08:40] <humphreybc> i've noticed it in other publications
[08:40] <godbyk> Yeah, it's generally a bad idea.
[08:40] <humphreybc> and yes, prologue xi and xii
[08:41] <humphreybc> so the one of the software center turned out the best
[08:41] <humphreybc> what res is that?
[08:41] <godbyk> 860 x 533
[08:41] <humphreybc> yeah so closest to 800 x 600
[08:41] <humphreybc> makes sense
[08:41] <humphreybc> the other ones look okay if you zoom to the right size
[08:42] <godbyk> Could also try doing weird things like using a high screen resolution, but setting the dpi/pitch to 300 instead of 96 or whatever the default is for the monitor.
[08:42] <godbyk> not sure how the monitor would like that, though.
[08:43] <godbyk> the lower the resolution, the larger the text will appear.
[08:43] <humphreybc> yea
[08:43] <humphreybc> hm
[08:56] <humphreybc> you know that small one of the dialog box
[08:56] <humphreybc> did latex stretch that to fit?
[08:56] <humphreybc> because it looks very big
[08:56] <humphreybc> we're going to have a lot of images of single windows or boxes about that size
[08:57] <godbyk> yeah, it's stretched.
[08:57] <humphreybc> darn
[08:57] <humphreybc> can you disable that?
[08:57] <godbyk> I basically told LaTeX to make all the graphics fit perfectly within the line width.
[08:57] <humphreybc> ie a rule to "use native resolutions unless it's bigger than the width of the document, then resize"
[08:57] <godbyk> So it stretched or shrank them to make them fit.
[08:58] <humphreybc> we want to minimize resizing down, and we want to have _no_ resizing up
[08:58] <godbyk> I may be able to whip up something like that.
[08:58] <godbyk> Right.
[08:58] <humphreybc> yeah, the images have to look really nice and professional
[08:59] <humphreybc> even keir thomas' pocket guide and makeuseof karmic guide's images look terrible
[08:59] <godbyk> nice and professional images often make the PDF size explode, unfortunately.  But we'll see if we can't strike a nice balance.
[08:59] <humphreybc> in evince, at least
[08:59] <godbyk> link?
[08:59] <humphreybc> http://www.ubuntupocketguide.com/index_main.html
[08:59] <humphreybc> http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/the-incredible-guide-to-ubuntu-karmic-koala-linux-pdf/
[09:00] <humphreybc> we probably won't be getting on the Lucid CD, so that means we don't have to worry about file size so much for this release
[09:00] <humphreybc> obviously we still want to keep it down, but it's not crucial
[09:00] <humphreybc> what we *could* do in the future is take a lighter version of our manual for the CD inclusion. Perhaps just the first half, less screenshots and lower quality screenshots
[09:06] <thorwil> heh, i told you resizing would look bad. glad to see file size considerations pushed back a bit :)
[09:08] <godbyk> thorwil: Yeah, I don't see much way around that.  When they're not scaled, they're huge.
[09:08] <humphreybc> well most of our shots shouldn't be that huge
[09:08] <humphreybc> we'll only really have one or two full desktop shots at most
[09:08] <godbyk> It's possible that another program (gimp, imagemagick, other) may do a better job of scaling than the internal LaTeX stuff does, too.  But it still won't be picture-perfect.
[09:09] <thorwil> in cases where you might have shots of dialogs of varying size, it might be preferable to have the same DPI, instead of scaling each one to match a height or width
[09:09] <godbyk> thorwil: Yeah, that's what we'll probably be doing.
[09:10] <humphreybc> i might try printing some of the manual now and see how it turns out
[09:10] <godbyk> Scaling the shots humphreybc just sent me to 1/2 the size doesn't look too horrible and fits on the page fairly well (though still a bit too large).
[09:10] <godbyk> humphreybc: All 99 pages? :-)
[09:10] <humphreybc> 99 pages now?! wow
[09:10] <humphreybc> not all 99 pages lol
[09:11] <humphreybc> just a couple from the prologue probably
[09:11] <thorwil> godbyk: wait, are you talking on changing dpi or actually resizing the image as in changing the amount of pixels?
[09:11] <godbyk> uh..
[09:11] <humphreybc> :D
[09:11] <godbyk> I'm not sure what LaTeX does when I say scale=0.5.
[09:11] <godbyk> I don't know what scaling method it's using.
[09:12] <humphreybc> slightly unrelated, godbyk how easy is it to put the revision number on the license page? i saw that come up in the meeting
[09:12] <godbyk> humphreybc: Yeah, I have to look into the bzr details of that. I know most versioning systems will let you do that, but I have to see how to do it with bzr.
[09:12] <thorwil> godbyk: what i have been saying all the time is that you should not change the amount of pixels in screenshots
[09:13] <godbyk> thorwil: I understand.
[09:13] <humphreybc> leave the pixeeeels!
[09:13] <thorwil> need to be clear, it's all too easy to run into misunderstandings ;)
[09:14] <humphreybc> fair enough
[09:15]  * humphreybc thinks it's pretty amazing that his server has uploaded 2GB of "main.pdf" in the last two days
[09:15] <thorwil> humphreybc: i have a list in front of me: icons: "Advanced", "Warning", ("Tip"), Icons per Chapter
[09:16] <thorwil> vish: ^
[09:16] <godbyk> It looks like it's up to the PDF viewer to scale the image.  The image gets included as-is and the PDF viewer scales it however the PDF file wants it scaled.
[09:16] <godbyk> (I think..)
[09:16] <thorwil> that's what should happen
[09:17] <humphreybc> hmm okay
[09:17] <humphreybc> i wonder what it looks like under adobe reader in windows or mac
[09:17] <humphreybc> i think it is a problem with evince because other publications present the same issues
[09:18] <vish> thorwil: already most of those icons are in humanity , of if you want simple glyph style icons i have those too
[09:18] <vish> or if*
[09:18] <humphreybc> we can probably use the humanity icons
[09:18] <godbyk> I was trying to see what it looked like in acroread under linux, but it keeps locking up on me.
[09:18] <humphreybc> the default install uses humanity right?
[09:18] <vish> thorwil: i did them for evince annotations support , we could use the dsame
[09:18] <vish> humphreybc: yeah
[09:18] <thorwil> vish: could you add matching icons of both sets to the wiki, please?
[09:19] <humphreybc> anyone got windows or mac lying around?
[09:19] <vish> thorwil: which wiki page?
[09:19] <humphreybc> vish: artwork/icons or something
[09:19] <thorwil> vish: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Artwork/Icons
[09:19] <humphreybc> wallah :D
[09:19] <vish> thats better :D
[09:21] <vish> thorwil: hmm , i need to create new page?
[09:21] <godbyk> loading it up in acroread on linux, it looks pretty decent, actually.
[09:21] <thorwil> ideally, we would include icons in vector form
[09:21] <humphreybc> awesome
[09:21] <thorwil> vish: yes. just rough if it in, i can clean it up if you don't fell like
[09:21] <thorwil> feel, even
[09:21] <humphreybc> godbyk: re the daily builds, at the moment i'm putting each revision up on my server
[09:22] <vish> k.. its just that wiki sucks ;p
[09:22] <godbyk> http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/Screenshot.png
[09:22] <godbyk> evince on the left, acroread on the right
[09:23] <thorwil> vish: if you ask me, we should have something looking more like the fedora wiki, but with wysiwyg editing, taking images per drag'n'drop
[09:24] <thorwil> but the wiki as is is preferable over things getting lost
[09:24] <vish> hmm , never been to the fedora site ;)
[09:24] <godbyk> thorwil: Speaking of vector form.. do you know how we can covert our SVGs to *nice*-looking PDFs? Inkscape seems to puke on the gradients or alpha or something.
[09:24] <humphreybc> godbyk: nice
[09:25]  * godbyk loves his dual monitors and can't stand working without them.
[09:25] <thorwil> so Evince does linear interpolation or not even that, i guess
[09:26] <godbyk> thorwil: I think it just picks random pixels in the area and chucks them.
[09:26] <thorwil> godbyk: i would guess alpha is the main problem.
[09:27] <thorwil> godbyk: yeah, shameful. somehow i refused to believe it's no interpolation at all
[09:27] <godbyk> I have other issues with evince, too.
[09:27] <vish> thorwil: so thats, only these 3 icons >  "Advanced", "Warning", "Tip"  ?
[09:28] <godbyk> For instance, if you have the full version of texlive installed, try running 'texdoc fontspec'
[09:28] <thorwil> vish: Tip isn't in use, even
[09:28] <thorwil> vish: but there should be icons per chapter
[09:28] <godbyk> evince just refuses to render some of the text (set in a particular font).  (and yes, the font is embedded)
[09:29] <vish> thorwil: so only the 2 means, the warning we can use the dialogue-warning icon and the advanced- we can use the system properties icon?
[09:30] <dutchie> is it just me that is seeing all the contact details squashed on to one line?
[09:30] <thorwil> vish: we don't know if we can use them as is
[09:30] <thorwil> vish: first step is to see what's there ;)
[09:30] <vish> thorwil: all are vector icons , just have a look at the usr/share/icons/humanity
[09:31] <godbyk> dutchie: where?
[09:32] <dutchie> bottom of the first page of the prologue
[09:32] <godbyk> dutchie: Ah, yeah.
[09:32] <dutchie> I can see \smallskips in the source
[09:32] <dutchie> they don't seem to do anythin
[09:32] <dutchie> g
[09:33] <godbyk> dutchie: Right.. there needs to be blank lines between to separate the paragraphs.
[09:33] <dutchie> yep
[09:33] <godbyk> I blame humphreybc. :)
[09:34]  * dutchie fixes
[09:34] <humphreybc> :D
[09:35] <humphreybc> so i was just thinking while waiting the the jug to boil
[09:35] <humphreybc> it's going to be a mission to get the screenshots in english, let alone in over 40 languages
[09:35] <humphreybc> we're going to need some sort of factory full of mexicans churning out screenshots
[09:35] <dutchie> global jam
[09:35] <dutchie> perfect for this sort of thing
[09:36] <humphreybc> we might have to target perhaps 10 main languages to get screenshots for, and the rest can be english until we slowly implement them eventually
[09:36] <humphreybc> true
[09:36] <humphreybc> so we need some method that makes it easy for anyone to capture screenshots we want in the correct language, and put them somewhere for us to use
[09:36] <dutchie> if we can encourage someone like jono to publicise it as a thing to do
[09:36] <dutchie> humphreybc: wiki?
[09:36] <humphreybc> hmm yeah
[09:37] <humphreybc> automated would be cool
[09:37] <humphreybc> i smell the need for a simple screenshot capturing tool
[09:37] <dutchie> does the screenshot todo thing make a list yet?
[09:37] <humphreybc> designed for our project...
[09:37] <dutchie> godbyk: ^^
[09:37] <humphreybc> you start up the program, choose your language, then take a screenshot (you can select a window) and then it gets uploaded automatically to the correct place with the correct language
[09:38] <thorwil> vish: where's the system properties icon?
[09:38] <humphreybc> and the screenshots are all set to the same dpi
[09:38] <dutchie> it would be about 5 lines of python
[09:38] <humphreybc> i could look into making a python program and use it as my program for the python paper i'm doing this semester
[09:38] <humphreybc> but it probably won't be ready yet
[09:38] <humphreybc> could we use glade or quickly to give it a GUI?
[09:39] <dutchie> yeah, good idea
[09:39] <humphreybc> the reason i want it automated is that it'll be a battle trying to explain to the masses that what dpi is and what resolution is etc
[09:39] <humphreybc> especially the english-is-not-their-first-language masses
[09:39] <humphreybc> and if we're going to get 1200 screenshots they need to be organized
[09:39] <godbyk> dutchie: after running make, look for a screenshots.log file.
[09:40] <dutchie> awesome
[09:40] <humphreybc> are we the biggest ubuntu project now?
[09:40] <dutchie> doubt it
[09:40] <humphreybc> name some large projects...
[09:40] <humphreybc> ie in team size
[09:41] <thorwil> a while ago i thought: there should be a layer between applications and their representation on screen. allowing to store/recall the state of what is being shown. such that you can render the same scene with a different them. or language, even
[09:41] <vish> thorwil: oops , stock_properties.svg or there are a lot of other similar alternative in categories
[09:41] <godbyk> Can't you just set an environment variable (LANG) that gets read and then everything is translated when you run the program?
[09:42] <dutchie> LC_MESSAGES should already be set
[09:42] <dutchie> I've got a $LANG variable anyway
[09:42] <dutchie> LANG=en_GB.UTF-8
[09:43] <godbyk> $ echo $LANG
[09:43] <godbyk> en_US.UTF-8
[09:43] <godbyk> I think if I set LANG to something either (and the appropriate language packs are installed) that it should work okay, right?
[09:43] <thorwil> vish: if not a wiki page, could you collect all icons you would consider (can be multiple themes), tar.bz2 and send a copy to design team members?
[09:44] <vish> k..
[09:44] <humphreybc> heh... the smell of progress. I like!
[09:44] <vish> thorwil: i'll try to do it to the wiki itself , but not anytime soon , since i have to make changes to humanity for lucid :(
[09:46] <thorwil> vish: it's actually not important to have it on the wiki, the important things is each of us who might work with them having the same set
[09:46] <thorwil> to either use them as is, adjust them, or as point of reference
[09:48] <godbyk> Could we have vish just drop a copy into the bzr repository for us to use for now and he can update them later when they've been finalized?
[09:48] <vish> thorwil: hmm... "each of us " i think i'm not following something?
[09:48] <thorwil> sounds like a good idea
[09:49] <thorwil> godbyk: good idea
[09:49] <godbyk> oops.. I closed the wrong window.
[09:49] <godbyk> (that's what I get for hitting alt+f4 instead of reaching for the mouse.
[09:49] <thorwil> vish: godbyk, wolter, maybe kolorguild if he ever comes back, myself
[09:50] <vish> thorwil: but what is there for all of us the work on wrt to those 2 or 3 icons?
[09:50]  * vish should stop multitasking when talking to thorwil least might face his wrath ;p
[09:50] <thorwil> vish: there's still icons per chapter
[09:52] <humphreybc> well icons per chapter, hmm.. things like the terminal will be easy. default apps, just a combination of a few app logos? prologue icon would be a bit hard... installation could be a computer screen with a screwdriver beside it or something, or maybe that could be for troubleshooting
[09:52] <humphreybc> your imagination is the limit!
[09:53] <godbyk> prologue could perhaps be the ubuntu logo or something.
[09:53] <thorwil> vish: there's also the aspect of you doing the collecting work and letting us know what you have. so it is done. once. and everyone who needs to know about it, does
[09:53] <godbyk> maybe the 'icons' for the chapters should be watermarks in the top-right of the page (bleed to the edge)
[09:54] <thorwil> we should try and see if icon-per-chapter is feasible
[09:54] <thorwil> if there is something we can't cover with a sane icon, we drop that idea
[09:54] <vish> thorwil: hmm, collecting , not anytime this month :(  pretty backed up fixing bugs in humanity :(
[09:55] <thorwil> vish: what are you even doing here, if your workload is that high? ;p
[09:56] <humphreybc> thorwil: I think we can cover each chapter with an icon
[09:56] <vish> thorwil:  hehe ;)  just to bug you ;p
[09:56] <thorwil> humphreybc: maybe not if it comes down to me having to do the title page and icons alone
[09:57] <humphreybc> true
[09:57] <humphreybc> i'll see if martin has a bit of spare time too
[09:57] <vish> thorwil: the issue is the deadlines for humanity and UI freeze are march4 , so it needs higher priority ;)
[09:58] <thorwil> vish: sure. you talk too much with that tight deadlines ;)
[09:59] <vish> ;)
[09:59]  * vish was hoping that manual design work would have been over by early feb
[10:01] <thorwil> vish: well, you couldn't know that silly german guy would get involved and make it all blown-out and complicated :)
[10:02] <humphreybc> haha
[10:07] <humphreybc> i'm going to start writing up some specifications for the screenshot taking app
[10:07] <humphreybc> ideas for names?
[10:10] <humphreybc> Rapture? Impression?
[10:10] <humphreybc> Getshot?
[10:10] <godbyk> brb. gonna log out and back in
[10:12] <thorwil> hotshot
[10:13] <thorwil> scrot
[10:14] <dutchie> scrot might be one to avoid
[10:14] <dutchie> seeing as it is used to abbreviate "scrotum" in en_GB
[10:16] <humphreybc> haha
[10:16] <humphreybc> I like impression
[10:16] <humphreybc> QuickSnap? Snapper?
[10:17] <humphreybc> QuickCapture
[10:17] <humphreybc> Quickture
[10:17] <humphreybc> Quickshot?
[10:18] <humphreybc> I like quickshot
[10:18] <humphreybc> not taken already by another FLOSS project so that's a plus
[10:21] <humphreybc> QuikShot
[10:23] <dutchie> that looks positively KDEy with all those Ks and Qs
[10:33] <godbyk> sweet!  Just got the translation stuff working.
[10:33] <godbyk> that may make screenshots a bit easier.
[10:33] <godbyk> here's the recipe for those who want to play along at home:
[10:33] <godbyk> sudo apt-get install language-package-LANG language-pack-gnome-LANG
[10:33] <humphreybc> okay it's called "QuickShot"
[10:33] <godbyk> (where LANG is the language code: 'es' for spanish, 'de' for german, etc.)
[10:34] <godbyk> install whatever dependencies it wants, too.
[10:34] <humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/quickshot
[10:34] <godbyk> let's say you picked spanish (es)
[10:34] <godbyk> then from a terminal, run "LANG=es_ES.UTF8 gedit"
[10:34] <godbyk> and gedit will appear with spanish menus, etc.
[10:34] <humphreybc> will QuickShot have to run these commands to install the language packs?
[10:35] <godbyk> well, the language you chose during install will be installed already.
[10:35] <humphreybc> yeah
[10:35] <godbyk> if you want to view things in multiple languages, you'll have to install the language packs for those languages
[10:35] <humphreybc> okay cool
[10:36] <humphreybc> as much as we can we should try to assign screenshotting to the translation teams
[10:36] <humphreybc> because they'll already have the correct language
[10:36] <godbyk> then, you have to set the LANG environment variable (and probably LC_ALL, too) to the language you want to see things in.
[10:36] <godbyk> right.
[10:36] <godbyk> this is more useful if you wanted to take screenshots of multiple languages yourself.
[10:36]  * humphreybc begins drawing up Mark Shuttleworth style UI diagrams with a pencil
[10:37] <vish> humphreybc: where have you seen those ;p , sabdfl doesnt do them ,the pencil diagrams around in Ubuntu are just from mpt
[10:37] <godbyk> humphreybc: So what's your QuickShot program going to do?
[10:38] <humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/quickshot
[10:38] <humphreybc> vish I thought the ones (like the software store and memenu) are from mark?
[10:38] <vish> humphreybc: i knew it!  nope , all those are mpt
[10:38] <humphreybc> oh okay!
[10:38] <humphreybc> joey on omgubuntu is wrong
[10:38] <humphreybc> i need graphics paper :S
[10:39] <vish> joey is pretty wrong on a lot of stuff ;)
[10:40] <humphreybc> haha
[11:04] <humphreybc> jeez painfully slow download speed
[11:05] <humphreybc> 10 KB/s
[11:05] <godbyk> humphreybc: should've stuck with your old ISP, eh? :-)
[11:05] <humphreybc> well now we have unlimited bandwidth
[11:05] <humphreybc> but it's traffic managed... for browsing websites it's nice and fast
[11:05] <humphreybc> speedtest.net gives us at about 6mpbs
[11:06] <humphreybc> but for some reason downloading stuff takes forever
[11:06] <humphreybc> i'm downloading the hplip drivers which are 20mb, and it's sooo slow
[11:06] <humphreybc> i'm going to ring them and complain
[11:07] <godbyk> nice
[11:07] <godbyk> what does it cost you a month?
[11:08] <humphreybc> $105 NZD with a landline
[11:08] <humphreybc> landline is like $60 of that
[11:08] <humphreybc> the upload speed is quite good tho, which is nice for my server
[11:09] <godbyk> So far we're up to 15 screenshots required.
[11:09]  * humphreybc adds shading to his drawings while waiting for the drivers to download so he can scan it
[11:09] <humphreybc> if we can stay under 30 that'll be great
[11:09] <godbyk> I wouldn't hold my breath.
[11:09] <humphreybc> eek
[11:09] <humphreybc> we've already got to get 1200 screenshots
[11:09] <humphreybc> where are all of these going to be hosted?
[11:09] <humphreybc> i could pester canonical for some server space
[11:10] <dutchie> why not in the branch?
[11:10] <humphreybc> yeah
[11:10] <humphreybc> the branch might end up huge tho
[11:10] <humphreybc> like half a gig huge
[11:11] <humphreybc> this is an enormous undertaking
[11:11] <dutchie> did you not think that when we started?
[11:11] <humphreybc> at some point i need to talk to mark shuttleworth to see if we can get some extra resources fired our way. I suppose we have to prove ourselves first
[11:11] <humphreybc> dutchie: honestly, no way!
[11:11] <dutchie> heh
[11:11] <dutchie> what sort of extra resources?
[11:11] <humphreybc> i was just going to create a 50 page english manual in open office...
[11:12] <humphreybc> dunno whatever they can spare lol
[11:12] <humphreybc> maybe a domain name :P
[11:12] <humphreybc> 50 page english manual turned into a 200 page latex manual in over 40 languages with dozens of screenshots
[11:12] <humphreybc> complete with it's own aggregated planet and almost 300 members.. sigh. xD
[11:13] <humphreybc> and now i'm planning to write the project's first purpose-built application
[11:13] <dutchie> don't forget manualbot!
[11:13] <dutchie> !hi
[11:13] <manualbot> Hi! Welcome to #ubuntu-manual! Enjoy your stay!
[11:13] <humphreybc> heheh
[11:19]  * humphreybc is designing a logo for quickshot
[11:19] <humphreybc> lol
[11:19] <humphreybc> anyone seen Ilya recently?
[11:21] <dutchie> 11:21:11 -!- Irssi: The person with the nick IlyaHaykinson last spoke 14d 13h ago.  11d 13h ago byla na kanale #ubuntu-manual, z ktorego wtedy wyszedlem.
[11:21] <humphreybc> 14 days ago?
[11:21] <dutchie> apparently
[11:21] <humphreybc> try IlyaHaykinson_
[11:22] <dutchie> 11:21:45 -!- Irssi: The person with the nick IlyaHaykinson_ last spoke 14d 15h ago.  14d 3h ago they were seen quitting on the channel #ubuntu-manual with the  message: Quit: nitenite
[11:22]  * dutchie <3 irssi
[11:22] <humphreybc> wow
[11:22] <humphreybc> i thought i'd seen him last week
[11:22] <dutchie> it might be broken :)
[11:23]  * dutchie greps logs
[11:23] <vish> godbyk: bzr-explorer , seems good too
[11:24] <vish> you can choose the position of the button labels ;)
[11:24] <godbyk> vish: Wha-?
[11:24] <dutchie> irclogs/2010/02/09/#ubuntu-manual.log:08:51 -!- IlyaHaykinson_ [~ilya@cpe-76-94-53-173.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: nitenite]
[11:24] <dutchie> that's the last I saw of him
[11:24] <humphreybc> 5 day sago
[11:25] <vish> godbyk: you mentioned you missed the button labels in bzr-gtk... bzr-explorer has those
[11:26]  * humphreybc has drawn up five windows, a logo and a quickshot title logo complete with shading and my 20mb download still hasn't finished
[11:27] <godbyk> vish: Ah. Gotcha.  It wasn't labels I missed, but unique icons and tooltips.
[11:28] <vish> godbyk: bzr-explorer well, it has those too i guess ;)
[11:30] <humphreybc> it'd probably be so much quicker to take a photograph with my DSLR of the piece of paper than scanning it in....
[11:30] <godbyk> I mean, if you're going to use the exact same icon on the toolbar multiple times, you should *at least* give me some tooltips so I can figure out what each one is for.
[11:30] <godbyk> humphreybc: Probably!
[11:30] <humphreybc> maybe i should just do that haha
[11:43] <humphreybc> and scanning works
[11:43] <humphreybc> took photos but the flash reflected off the page too much
[11:45] <godbyk> humphreybc: I wanna see! :-)
[11:46] <humphreybc> getting there!
[11:46] <humphreybc> just going to crop them into individual windows
[11:46] <godbyk> I want to go to bed, but I'm helping someone in another channel troubleshoot some software that I haven't used in quite a while.  It's being a pain.
[11:49] <humphreybc> haha, and you have to wait like 10 minutes till i resize and upload these
[11:49] <humphreybc> they're cool xD
[11:51] <godbyk> lol
[11:51] <godbyk> I just pointed this guy to some troubleshooting stuff on the project's web site and the mailing list address.
[11:51]  * godbyk yawns
[11:52] <godbyk> I think I'm gonna head to bed.
[11:52] <godbyk> humphreybc: You should email me your sketches when you get 'em done.  I'll poke at them for ya. :)
[11:52] <humphreybc> heh
[11:52] <humphreybc> i'm putting them on the quickshot page now
[11:57] <humphreybc> godbyk: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/quickshot
[11:58] <godbyk> humphreybc: cool
[11:58] <humphreybc> what do you think of the sketches? hehe
[11:58] <godbyk> humphreybc: Shouldn't the app check the server first and only offer options that are available?
[11:58] <dutchie> not sure about that icon
[11:58] <godbyk> (so I don't select one, fail, select another, fail, repeat fail)
[11:58] <dutchie> but too much going on for something about 20 pixels wide
[11:58] <dutchie> bit*
[11:58] <humphreybc> godbyk: yeah it probably should
[11:59] <humphreybc> but then we'll end up with a waiting time while it downloads the information, and then a huge window to display hundreds of possibilities
[11:59] <humphreybc> so i suppose theirs a trade off
[11:59] <godbyk> The window/area/desktop option could be preset from the server, too.  (so they're consistent across languages)
[11:59] <humphreybc> the way it is now is good for the start of the project
[12:00] <humphreybc> but when 1195 shots are done, the last 5 will be very hard to find lol
[12:00] <humphreybc> i wonder if we can have it change the theme to default, set the language, and change resolutions too?
[12:00] <humphreybc> so for a few seconds the user will see some crazy shit
[12:00] <humphreybc> and all the dialogs have to be in english or their own language so they can understand them
[12:00] <godbyk> right
[12:00] <humphreybc> so somehow they can't be changed when the system language is changed
[12:01] <thorwil> humphreybc: labels in dialogs should be short and to the point. ideally front-loaded. so better no "Please choose"
[12:01] <humphreybc> true
[12:02] <godbyk> humphreybc: you'd set the LANG and LC_ALL vars to whatever language they're taking the screenshot for and then run the program.  it'll inherit those vars, but the rest of the system is using the system-wide language settings.
[12:02] <humphreybc> righto
[12:03] <godbyk> I don't think pulling down a data set from the web on startup would be that bad.
[12:03] <godbyk> it won't be that big.
[12:03] <godbyk> number of languages * number of screenshots - # screenshots already taken
[12:03] <godbyk> it'll get faster each time. :-)
[12:03] <thorwil> treating it as sentence: "Take a screenshot of: [24 - MeMenu closeup] in the language: [Portuguese]", perhaps
[12:04] <humphreybc> okay cool
[12:04] <godbyk> and the language should default to the current system language.
[12:04] <humphreybc> i'm going to add a "comments" section to the bottom of the wiki if you guys could add your comments there :)
[12:05] <humphreybc> (otherwise i'll forget)
[12:05] <godbyk> that's what irc logs are for. :)
[12:06] <thorwil> ok, my sentecne should be turned around, to be able to mark shots already taken in a language, anyway
[12:06] <thorwil> godbyk: irc logs are full of noise. like this right here :)
[12:07] <humphreybc> exackery
[12:12] <humphreybc> dutchie you're right about the logo
[12:12] <humphreybc> it'll probably be simpler when done on a computer
[12:12] <humphreybc> without the detail of pencil shadings and finer, straighter lines etc
[12:13] <godbyk> humphreybc: Okay, I added a paragraph in the comments section.
[12:13] <godbyk> But I'm really tired, so it may be nonsensical.  I'll reread it when I wake up and elaborate or fix things.
[12:14] <humphreybc> cool
[12:14] <godbyk> Okay, I'm headed to bed now.
[12:14] <godbyk> I'll be back in 8-9 hours or thereabouts.
[12:15] <humphreybc> dutchie: does the planet have a cronjob to update?
[12:15] <humphreybc> godbyk: awesome, night
[12:15] <dutchie> yes, for the millionth time
[12:15] <godbyk> You should add more people to the planet.
[12:16]  * godbyk is going to bed for reals this time!
[12:16] <dutchie> give me more people to add :)
[12:25] <humphreybc> well i've emailed the ML at least once asking for people
[12:28] <humphreybc> josh, feel free to add some comments to the quickshot wiki too
[12:28] <humphreybc> i'll look at them in the morning and make some changes
[12:39] <komsas> I'm looking to future, but how to render manual with translated strings?
[12:42] <humphreybc> you mean the title paeg?
[12:42] <humphreybc> page*
[12:42] <komsas> all pages
[12:43] <humphreybc> that's all being taken care of with latex
[12:43] <humphreybc> you should have a look at the branch some time
[12:43] <humphreybc> we can output to any language at the moment
[12:44] <humphreybc> more or less
[12:44] <humphreybc> the only thing that has to be manually translated each time is the title page
[12:44] <komsas> ok, I will look to branch and hope to find how to do this ;) thanks
[12:45] <humphreybc> yep what happens is that we write the english version in tex files
[12:45] <humphreybc> and they get compiled into a pdf
[12:45] <humphreybc> but anyway, there's another program called po4a that takes the strings from the text files and exports them into .pot and .po files
[12:45] <humphreybc> these get imported into rosetta (launchpad) where you guys translate them
[12:45] <komsas> Like I :)
[12:46] <humphreybc> then they get exported out of launchpad, and put back into the branch
[12:46] <humphreybc> then what happens is that we can run a slightly different command to compile the manual in any of the languages
[12:46] <humphreybc> and latex just takes the different strings from the .pot and .po files and puts them in the place of the english ones
[12:46] <humphreybc> it's slightly more complicated than that, but that's pretty much the idea
[12:46] <komsas> can I find any doc about command how to compile?
[12:47] <komsas> or where is that script?
[12:47] <humphreybc> yep, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Help
[12:47] <humphreybc> and to compile in your own language, however, is a wee bit more involved. We haven't documentated that on the wiki yet but if you ask godbyk when he's around he can tell you how to do it
[12:48] <humphreybc> I presume you want to compile the PDF in lithuanian?
[12:48] <humphreybc> to see what it looks like?
[12:48] <komsas> yes
[12:48] <humphreybc> okay well godbyk has just gone to sleep, he'll be back in about 8 hours
[12:48] <humphreybc> but dutchie might know how to do it
[12:48] <humphreybc> he's just having lunch, should be back in 20 minutes
[12:49] <komsas> ok I will ask dutchie about this.
[12:50] <humphreybc> wait i think i found out how to do it
[12:50] <komsas> mmm..
[12:50] <humphreybc> maybe
[12:50] <humphreybc> nope
[12:50] <humphreybc> haha
[12:50] <komsas> hehe
[12:50] <komsas> I will look too..
[12:51] <humphreybc> try running "make ubuntu-manual-li.pdf"
[12:51] <komsas> "li" like lithuanian?
[12:52] <humphreybc> yep
[12:52] <humphreybc> it's the language code for lithuanian
[12:52] <humphreybc> you have to run it in the root directory of the branch though
[12:52] <komsas> nop, ours is lt
[12:52] <humphreybc> have you pulled the branch?
[12:52] <humphreybc> oh okay
[12:52] <komsas> yes
[12:52] <humphreybc> sorry lt then
[12:52] <humphreybc> so you can do make show to just see the english version
[12:52] <humphreybc> also have a look here: http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/
[12:53] <humphreybc> godbyk put some of the translated versions on his server, but that was about 2 weeks ago
[12:53] <humphreybc> I don't think lithuanian is htere
[12:53] <humphreybc> but there are some similar to lithuanian that you can look at to get an idea before he tells you how to compile the actual lt version
[12:54] <humphreybc> those aren't particularly useful
[12:56] <komsas> do you know where to get package xelatex?
[12:58] <humphreybc> ohhhhhh that's right
[12:58] <humphreybc> i remember now
[12:58] <humphreybc> nope i'm not sure
[12:58] <komsas> I found texlive-xetex :)
[12:58] <humphreybc> he had to use a newer version of latex because of all the special chinese characters and such
[12:58] <humphreybc> it's like the 2007 version of it that isn't in the repos yet
[13:00] <komsas> yee.. it is old.
[13:01] <humphreybc> yup
[13:01] <humphreybc> darn translations, so complicated :P
[13:02] <komsas> someone must write all dependences for compiling and create ppa for them.
[13:03] <komsas> then will be more easy for us (translators)
[13:03] <humphreybc> for the translations?
[13:03] <humphreybc> yea
[13:03] <humphreybc> a PPA is a good idea
[13:03] <humphreybc> although I think xelatex is a pretty large package
[13:33] <humphreybc> no probs
[13:33] <humphreybc> wait
[13:33] <humphreybc> wrong window
[13:35] <humphreybc> right i think i need sleep
[13:35] <humphreybc> it's 2:30am here now
[13:35] <humphreybc> talk to you guys tomorrow
[13:37] <dutchie> komsas: godbyk had a list of requirements for building a translated version
[13:38] <komsas> dutchie: ok, I will ask him
[13:38] <dutchie> I might be able to find them
[13:39] <dutchie> try running "make ubuntu-manual-lt.pdf" (assuming you want the lithuanian version)
[13:39] <humphreybc> dutchie: we tried that
[13:39] <humphreybc> remember godbyk said something about requiring 2007 edition of xelatex
[13:39] <humphreybc> and that it wasn't available in the repos
[13:39] <humphreybc> and stuff
[13:40] <komsas> yes, I need newer version of xelatex
[13:43] <dutchie> aha, found it
[13:44] <dutchie> https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/msg00548.html
[13:45] <komsas> nice, thanks dutchie
[17:07] <dutchie> Pendulum: haven't seen you around here before :)
[17:08] <Pendulum> dutchie: I mostly joined to see if Ben was around to talk about the training days in -classroom
[17:08] <Pendulum> I looked at the project when it first started and then realised I didn't have time to get involved ;)
[17:09] <Pendulum> but as I am involved in Classroom we want to make sure everything gets organized and scheduled appropriately :)
[17:10] <dutchie> he did ask me to help arrange that
[17:10] <Pendulum> ah, okay
[17:10] <dutchie> I could probably be of assistance as he's asleep now
[17:10] <Pendulum> I just sent him an e-mail with a heads up as there's already a class scheduled at 1800 UTC on the 23rd
[17:11] <Pendulum> so we need y'all to leave that hour free
[17:11] <Pendulum> do you want to take this to #ubuntu-classroom-backstage?
[17:11] <dutchie> we've got a timetable under construction in an etherpad
[17:11] <dutchie> hmm, chrome seems to have decided not to work
[17:11] <Pendulum> that's not useful of it :P
[17:12] <dutchie> OK, working now
[17:12] <dutchie> http://etherpad.com/ov6YwNDcDi is what we have so far
[17:13] <dutchie> I think here is fine, unless you want it in #ubuntu-classroom-backstage
[17:15] <dutchie> Pendulum: does that timetable look good?
[17:16] <dutchie> right, have to walk the dog before it gets dark, but will be back soon
[17:32] <Pendulum> dutchie: it looks pretty similar to what we've seen already and so far looks fine to me
[17:50] <dutchie> Pendulum: great. I think Ben is keen to be able to use Lernid for this. Do you know where the .lernid file should go to have Lernid autodetect it?
[17:53] <Pendulum> dutchie: that I don't know. I think for User Days those dealing with lernid e-mailed someone
[17:53] <Pendulum> nhandler may know
[17:53] <dutchie> OK, thanks
[17:53] <dutchie> I might just look through the source :)
[18:43] <Pendulum> dutchie: nhandler things the .lernid files still may need to go to jono to be autodetected
[18:44] <dutchie> OK, thanks
[18:44] <dutchie> I'll grab jono if he's ever around
[18:44] <Pendulum> or maybe qense since I know jono handed lernid off to him
[18:44] <dutchie> I'll ask jono, as it's probably more a case of someone having upload rights to the webspace
[18:45] <Pendulum> *nods*
[18:46] <dutchie> configfile = urllib.urlopen('http://www.jonobacon.org/files/lernid/ubuntu.lernid')
[18:46] <dutchie> I'll ask jono :)
[18:47] <dutchie> though in the meantime, a hungry dog has appeared
[18:48] <Pendulum> :)
[18:48] <Pendulum> isn't that redundent?
[18:48] <Pendulum> I thought all dogs were hungry all the time
[18:48] <dutchie> well, an especially hungry dog then
[18:49] <dutchie> now a dribbly dog has come to thank me for food
[19:27] <nozes> legal
[19:28] <dutchie> nozes: can we help?
[19:30] <nozes> no, I am speak english ;(
[19:30] <dutchie> ok... I think ;)
[20:27] <ubuntujenkins> I am trying to explain the click and drag process used in drop and red-eye reduction in f-spot does this make sense? http://paste.ubuntu.com/376416/
[20:27] <ubuntujenkins> *crop
[20:28] <dutchie> maybe "of the subject's eye" instead of just "of the red-eye"
[20:28] <dutchie> otherwise pretty clear I think
[20:29] <ubuntujenkins> thanks dutchie how do I get added to the authors? can i just add my self in the tex file?
[20:29] <dutchie> have you joined the team?
[20:30] <ubuntujenkins> yes I have done empathy and am on f-spot and totem
[20:30] <dutchie> Yeah, just put yourself in somewhere with the others then
[20:30] <ubuntujenkins> cool didn't want to just add it just incase thanks!
[22:58] <godbyk> Did komsas get pointed in the right direction for compiling the manual in Lithuanian?
[22:59] <dutchie> godbyk: yeah, I gave him a link to your original ML post
[23:00] <godbyk> dutchie: Cool. Thanks.
[23:00] <godbyk> Hopefully those instructions aren't too hard to follow.
[23:00] <dutchie> well, he hasn't come back and asked for more help, so I assume so
[23:00] <godbyk> The biggest drawback is that downloading TeX Live can take a while -- it's huge!
[23:01] <dutchie> indeed
[23:02] <godbyk> The glossaries stuff in the Ubuntu repositories is also woefully out of date.  At some point, I may have to have everyone using TL2009 for things (and stop making English a special case).
[23:03] <dutchie> probably a good idea
[23:03] <dutchie> hmm, I wonder what version TL is in lucid
[23:03] <dutchie> 2007.dfsg.2-4ubuntu1 :(
[23:04] <dutchie> it's in testing and unstable though
[23:04] <dutchie> tempted to request a sync
[23:06] <godbyk> It's almost better to use the real TeX Live stuff 'cause it has its own updater (to get updated packages).
[23:06] <godbyk> Seems Debian/Ubuntu never post updates for anything.
[23:06] <dutchie> well, debian have got 2009 in
[23:07] <dutchie> I think you just have to complain at them to make anything happen
[23:08] <godbyk> I see.
[23:08] <godbyk> http://www.tug.org/texlive/debian.html
[23:09] <dutchie> I think getting texlive synced for lucid will involve pain
[23:10]  * dutchie decides to put a tentative question out in #ubuntu-devel
[23:14] <dutchie> 23:13:47 < geser> dutchie: lucid will have TeXLive 2009
[23:17] <godbyk> dutchie: yay!
[23:17] <dutchie> it doesn't yet though
[23:17] <godbyk> figures.