| kwwii | you cannot form a large group of very talented people from different fields and expect something in months | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| troy_s | kwwii: I think I'm the guy that would probably have been saying that from the start no? You are preaching to the choir. | 00:00 |
| kwwii | troy_s: you can see that as a positive factor...anything you do good is a break from the past :p | 00:00 |
| troy_s | kwwii: But Microsoft, with limitless money and bottomless ability to recruit is still Microsoft. | 00:00 |
| troy_s | kwwii: Which is why I still think this is a question of culture. | 00:01 |
| troy_s | kwwii: In the _meantime_... something that is a baby step in the right direction (or at least overarching apparent trending I could probably argue) is representational data. | 00:01 |
| troy_s | kwwii: You could probably push that overnight. | 00:01 |
| troy_s | kwwii: And no one would really notice | 00:02 |
| troy_s | kwwii: And it solves a 'problem' without doing any work. | 00:02 |
| troy_s | lol | 00:02 |
| troy_s | kwwii: Not to mention that a mailing list with 22(!!!) replies on a fricking Word document is ... what's the word... WTF. | 00:03 |
| kwwii | :) | 00:03 |
| troy_s | kwwii: Agree? | 00:03 |
| kwwii | yes. agreed | 00:03 |
| kwwii | I think that once the canonical design team shows their strengths the community might change a bit | 00:04 |
| troy_s | kwwii: Lol... I actually subscribed to the list again just to rant on that ridiculous thread but alas, I can't even reply to the fricking thread. | 00:05 |
| troy_s | kwwii: The memenu is the rallying cry. It shall be the beginning of something huge. | 00:05 |
| troy_s | kwwii: fskcing brutal. | 00:05 |
| troy_s | kwwii: Voldemort? | 00:06 |
| kwwii | troy_s: I think that once all the indicator menus are implemented, tested and such things will make more sense | 00:08 |
| kwwii | naturally, there is a lot to change | 00:08 |
| kwwii | but it will evolve and there is a plan for that | 00:09 |
| troy_s | kwwii: How about coming up with SOME aesthetic SOMEWHERE that is appealing to SOMEONE? | 00:09 |
| troy_s | kwwii: Does no one on that entire team know about the aesthetic usability effect? | 00:09 |
| troy_s | kwwii: You must just be sitting there squirming. | 00:09 |
| kwwii | troy_s: to be honest, I wish I could talk about some of the ideas we've discussed but I imagine I would lose my job *really* quickly | 00:10 |
| troy_s | kwwii: Yes I know. Why do you think I have _never_ pushed you on anything? | 00:10 |
| kwwii | again, the team is just now really gettig into high gear | 00:10 |
| troy_s | kwwii: Especially in a logged channel. | 00:10 |
| troy_s | kwwii: But let's face it, no one was talking about design around these parts until someone saw an economic upside. | 00:10 |
| kwwii | troy_s: lol, give it 6 months | 00:10 |
| troy_s | kwwii: No one mentionned art (and in fact, if you look closely, it's still tough to spot an artist / designer) | 00:11 |
| troy_s | kwwii: I hope D is given a large say in that gongshow of webpresence. | 00:11 |
| troy_s | kwwii: But time will tell. (Hell, how many others have his cred there?) | 00:12 |
| troy_s | kwwii: Side note, _WTF_ happened to Julian? | 00:12 |
| kwwii | lol | 00:12 |
| troy_s | kwwii: It is water way under the bridge now. | 00:12 |
| troy_s | kwwii: WAY | 00:12 |
| kwwii | I really liked Julian | 00:13 |
| troy_s | kwwii: Gee... because maybe he seemed to show that he had a shred of a clue and credibility? | 00:13 |
| kwwii | http://www.flickr.com/photos/kwwii/3331322429/ | 00:13 |
| troy_s | kwwii: I don't imagine that anyone that has a shred of credibility turns into a patsy there. | 00:13 |
| kwwii | I think overall it was the case of the right person at the wrong time | 00:14 |
| troy_s | kwwii: Wow. Mirco's damn short. | 00:14 |
| troy_s | kwwii: LOL | 00:14 |
| troy_s | kwwii: That looks like Castro behind Mark there. When are those from? | 00:14 |
| kwwii | Ivanka (who he hired), has kinda taken over the roll but in her own amazing way | 00:14 |
| kwwii | she is really killer | 00:14 |
| kwwii | as a team, we are much more effective because of Ivanka | 00:15 |
| troy_s | kwwii: The _glaring_ hole is that there isn't any visual design going on. Anyone that has read the article knows full well that, like it or not, the aesthetic usability effect is _real_ and it in fact is more important than the _actual_ usability. | 00:15 |
| kwwii | troy_s: the developer sprint in Berlin a year and two weeks ago | 00:16 |
| troy_s | kwwii: So the visual design component is still a gongshow. | 00:16 |
| troy_s | kwwii: Too bad. I quite thought that Julian's approach to the workspace reenvisioning etc was _spot_ on. | 00:16 |
| troy_s | kwwii: And I'm sure that was an abortion when it came to implementation. | 00:16 |
| kwwii | troy_s: I understand what you're saying and why but I think you should give us a few months time to get things rolling | 00:17 |
| kwwii | I don't think that anything he did has died | 00:17 |
| kwwii | and with that, I will head off to bed | 00:18 |
| troy_s | kwwii: Is D's reach going to extend into the desktop? | 00:18 |
| troy_s | kwwii: Nacht. | 00:18 |
| kwwii | troy_s: dom is amazing and although his work on the desktop is very limited there are influences of his work...we are approaching this holistically | 00:19 |
| kwwii | troy_s: imagine all the touching points in really getting it right and then think about how much time and effort that would *really* be | 00:19 |
| troy_s | kwwii: I am not saying for a SECOND that any of this shit is simple or easy etc. | 00:20 |
| troy_s | kwwii: You full well know that. | 00:20 |
| kwwii | it might be hard for the community to understand how things work in general and even harder for those in the know because they expect something and see no results | 00:20 |
| troy_s | kwwii: Part of it, in fact, should be _eliminating_ touchpoints that are a gongshow. | 00:20 |
| troy_s | (good luck selling that one) | 00:20 |
| kwwii | in answer to that I say, wait it out...we're coming ;) | 00:20 |
| troy_s | kwwii: Well c'mon, it isn't like there is even a remote shred of a body of work or any sense of building. | 00:21 |
| troy_s | kwwii: So the community is entirely fair to be evaluating things in that light. | 00:21 |
| kwwii | troy_s: for any given release there are certain things you can improve and some you simply cannot, that does not mean that you don't have a master plan for the full future of all media | 00:21 |
| troy_s | kwwii: C'mon. | 00:21 |
| kwwii | troy_s: yes, there is little for anyone to feel or see until now | 00:22 |
| troy_s | kwwii: We could _just_ look at the wallpaper as symptomatic. | 00:22 |
| troy_s | kwwii: (And yes, I'm aware of that bearfight behind the doors) | 00:22 |
| troy_s | kwwii: Anyways, get some sleep | 00:22 |
| kwwii | troy_s: hey, brown is brown...it's cool | 00:22 |
| kwwii | :P | 00:22 |
| troy_s | kwwii: Brown is fine | 00:22 |
| troy_s | kwwii: Shit ability isn't. | 00:22 |
| kwwii | troy_s: just kidding | 00:23 |
| troy_s | kwwii: Hell... I'd dare say that if you dropped James White in there he'd say the same thing about brown. | 00:23 |
| troy_s | kwwii: Funniest part is that after all this time, brown's deadly chic right now. | 00:23 |
| troy_s | kwwii: But we still pooch it. | 00:23 |
| troy_s | kwwii: Now sleep. | 00:23 |
| kwwii | I actually included a picture of James Brown in jail in a presentation to Mark about new theme ideas | 00:23 |
| troy_s | kwwii: WHITE. lol | 00:24 |
| troy_s | kwwii: James WHITE. LOL | 00:24 |
| troy_s | lmao | 00:24 |
| troy_s | kwwii: Water flows down. You are in a desert. | 00:24 |
| kwwii | lol | 00:24 |
| troy_s | kwwii: Fertile ground not. | 00:24 |
| kwwii | lol | 00:24 |
| kwwii | how is it that I have never heard of James White? | 00:25 |
| kwwii | other than the SF author | 00:25 |
| troy_s | kwwii: He's a pretty hot commodity these days. | 00:26 |
| troy_s | kwwii: And talented as hell. | 00:26 |
| kwwii | troy_s: seen http://blog.chaotic.co.uk/ | 00:27 |
| troy_s | kwwii: btdtgtts | 00:27 |
| kwwii | ? | 00:27 |
| troy_s | kwwii: been there done that | 00:27 |
| troy_s | blah blah | 00:27 |
| troy_s | kwwii: Yes. | 00:27 |
| troy_s | kwwii: I don't know if the solution is fanbois. | 00:28 |
| troy_s | kwwii: Of that ilk. With little passion or care. | 00:28 |
| troy_s | kwwii: Rather like Apple hiring a bunch of Microsoft fanbois. | 00:28 |
| troy_s | kwwii: Just two pennies, but it's weka. | 00:28 |
| troy_s | weak even | 00:28 |
| troy_s | kwwii: (Dare say that you'd probably agree on that front.) | 00:28 |
| kwwii | I dare say, we might just impress you yet ;-) | 00:30 |
| troy_s | kwwii: It isn't me you need to worry about. I'm just some dipsh*t. | 00:32 |
| kwwii | :P | 00:34 |
| troy_s | kwwii: Anyways, I don't think that data supports 'Yay'. lol. D for certain. | 00:35 |
| troy_s | kwwii: But that, not so much. | 00:35 |
| === chaotic_ is now known as chaotic | ||
| kwwii | good morning | 10:01 |
| iainfarrell | kwwii: morning :) | 10:01 |
| kwwii | iainfarrell: hey | 10:02 |
| zniavre | good morning | 10:10 |
| zniavre | there is somewhere nautilus 2.29 rgba support ppa's ? | 10:11 |
| * darkmatter hands kwwii a quadruple shot of espresso. gmornin', and get to work! ;p | 10:11 | |
| thorwil | morning! | 10:30 |
| kwwii | darkmatter: hehe | 10:38 |
| kwwii | zniavre: not that I know of | 10:38 |
| kwwii | zniavre: we started doing rgba code in gtk itself but there were some major X errrors in a some apps so we've postponed that work | 10:39 |
| kwwii | hi thorwil, how's things? | 10:39 |
| thorwil | kwwii: hating myself for getting involved in the manual project despite having enough on the list :) | 10:40 |
| kwwii | lol | 10:41 |
| kwwii | thorwil: I imagine you could spend a lot of time on that | 10:41 |
| thorwil | font selection alone eats hours | 10:42 |
| kwwii | I can just imagine the discussions about layout and such are lots of fun | 10:45 |
| thorwil | there is no discussion on layout :) | 10:46 |
| kwwii | not yet, you eman | 10:46 |
| kwwii | mean | 10:46 |
| thorwil | we have a latex wizard and it seems like i can leave it to him | 10:46 |
| thorwil | the fun so far involved people thinking having a lynx on the title page would be a must | 10:47 |
| thorwil | thankfully i could convince the leader it's not :) | 10:48 |
| kwwii | thorwil: hehe, I used to do a *lot* of work with TeX (making the SuSE books) | 11:07 |
| kwwii | you have to know what your are doing to get the layout right | 11:07 |
| thorwil | i stopped using latex when being very happy with it turned into being fucking frustrated, because i could not even start to do layout invloving pictures with it | 11:08 |
| * thorwil -> lunch | 11:10 | |
| kwwii | ;) | 11:19 |
| * vish hehe was happy when thorwil became the manual design-team leader ;p | 12:25 | |
| * vish back into woodwork | 12:26 | |
| * darkmatter is decidedly unhappy after his walk | 12:34 | |
| thorwil | tr | 15:00 |
| Equiet | Hi. http://stelmaria.equiet.operaunite.com/file_sharing/content/_r1_c1.png | 15:28 |
| Equiet | It's my mockup for http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/02/13/random-idea-for-design-collaboration-tool/ . | 15:28 |
| Equiet | The upper half is quite done. | 15:29 |
| kwwii | Equiet: intersting | 15:32 |
| Equiet | (Any feedback would be appreciated.) | 15:37 |
| === Raff7 is now known as bahe | ||
| zleap | hi Merula | 18:17 |
| Merula | hi :$ | 18:17 |
| zleap | hi | 18:17 |
| Merula | it's.. quiet | 18:18 |
| zleap | yeah | 18:18 |
| zleap | mat_t, can you help Merula | 18:18 |
| Merula | can anyone? :/ | 18:19 |
| zleap | lol | 18:19 |
| Merula | is anyone... here? | 18:20 |
| Merula | except us, zleap | 18:20 |
| zleap | yeah | 18:20 |
| zleap | the wonders of Free software, this, | 18:21 |
| * vish surprised at activity here ;) | 18:21 | |
| Merula | oooh someone else | 18:21 |
| zleap | hi vish | 18:21 |
| zleap | can you help Merula please | 18:21 |
| vish | hi.. | 18:22 |
| zleap | hi | 18:22 |
| vish | Merula: what's up? | 18:22 |
| Merula | care to explain, zleap? :/ | 18:22 |
| Merula | else i'll make an eejit outta myself :P | 18:22 |
| zleap | ok Merula wants to look in to helping with the art project | 18:23 |
| vish | Merula: to start you can have a look at the wiki > http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork and some of the projects you can get involved in are listed there | 18:24 |
| Merula | but i';ve never done any of this stuff before :( | 18:25 |
| Merula | hence why i need help | 18:25 |
| vish | Merula: not sure i understand? what are your interests ? you are looking to be involved in which aspect? | 18:25 |
| Merula | im an expressive artist. i draw and paint and computer manipulate. | 18:26 |
| zleap | vish, i suggested looking here, as Merula said she wasnt a programmer or technical in that way | 18:27 |
| vish | Merula: do you have an online portfolio ? | 18:28 |
| Merula | erm... unless you include 12/13 yr old drawings then not at the moment :/ | 18:29 |
| Merula | i can set one up? | 18:29 |
| vish | it not a problem , just wanted to have an insight :) | 18:29 |
| vish | its* | 18:29 |
| zleap | Merula, that sounds a good idea anyway | 18:29 |
| Merula | http://www.youtube.com/jennie140695 < = they're my old drawings on videos | 18:30 |
| vish | Merula: the official artwork is usually done and decided by the canonical design team , the community usually helps in the artwork as and when required | 18:30 |
| Merula | ok | 18:31 |
| zleap | so right now things are quiet, or is there a time of day when there is more activity | 18:33 |
| thorwil | it's pretty random | 18:34 |
| thorwil | but what do you expect? | 18:34 |
| zleap | well #ubuntu-uk is qutie busy | 18:34 |
| thorwil | *talking* about artwork all day? ;) | 18:34 |
| Merula | yes | 18:34 |
| zleap | so some channels have a peek times of activity | 18:34 |
| vish | ;) | 18:34 |
| vish | zleap: well , there is not much to keep talking about art all day ;) ... the activity here is _very_ low | 18:35 |
| zleap | ok | 18:35 |
| Merula | what's the gender spread like? male dominated? (as per usual X_X) | 18:36 |
| vish | well its the web... gender doesnt really matter ;) | 18:36 |
| vish | Merula: it isnt clear what help you are looking for... | 18:36 |
| Merula | it was all zleap's idea *pokes* | 18:37 |
| zleap | hi | 18:37 |
| Merula | he said i could get more involved here | 18:37 |
| vish | Merula: the Canonical design team lead is a woman ... ;) | 18:37 |
| thorwil | troy_s: interesting showcase regarding design competitions: http://www.underconsideration.com/brandnew/archives/european_organic_euro-leaf.php | 18:37 |
| zleap | well i suggested irc as we were alrady in irc anyway | 18:37 |
| troy_s | thorwil: Greets brother. How you doing? | 18:38 |
| zleap | but you contribute according to what skills you have | 18:38 |
| Merula | vish: ok then | 18:38 |
| thorwil | troy_s: things move slowly :) | 18:38 |
| troy_s | Look at the 'End Justify Means' poll... LOL | 18:38 |
| vish | Merula: currently there is design work going on for the Ubuntu manual.. you can work on that if you are interested | 18:39 |
| Merula | what sort of design? | 18:39 |
| troy_s | Merula: You have a portfolio? | 18:39 |
| Merula | troy_s: no, i dont know how | 18:39 |
| troy_s | Merula: Hrm. What does that mean exactly? You don't know how to put samples of work up online? | 18:39 |
| Merula | erm, i;ve never done design before. like i said, i do expressive art. like cartoons and paintings... | 18:40 |
| Merula | that doesn't mean i can't do design | 18:40 |
| zleap | Merula, the manual is online, i guess things like taking screen shots of applications | 18:40 |
| vish | Merula: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Artwork | 18:40 |
| troy_s | Merula: The point is though, everyone is largely strangers here. That means it is _extremely_ difficult to evaluate where someone would fit in with a given project. | 18:41 |
| zleap | Merula, to bring you upto speed, this project is to include a decent manual for users in the next release 10.04 | 18:41 |
| Merula | i don't think any of this is suited to me at all :/ | 18:43 |
| Merula | sorry for the waste of time, guys | 18:43 |
| troy_s | LOL | 18:43 |
| troy_s | And I guess that is where it lays. | 18:43 |
| vish | troy_s: ;) why do you intimidate ;p | 18:43 |
| troy_s | vish: I don't think that was intimidation. | 18:44 |
| vish | just kidding ;) | 18:44 |
| troy_s | vish: But enough already with the people that drop in for five minutes and want to do crap. | 18:44 |
| vish | troy_s: yeah , but Merula seemed to fit for the anime stuff .. | 18:44 |
| vish | zleap: there is the > http://doctormo.wordpress.com/2010/02/17/anime-boston-well-on-our-way/ | 18:45 |
| troy_s | vish: How much effort does it take to push a project along? | 18:45 |
| troy_s | vish: And then wonder how long someone would last in a project of any depth if you aren't willing to spend what - five minutes chatting in IRC? | 18:45 |
| vish | troy_s: yeah , it was disappointing at the quit speed the user left :( | 18:46 |
| zleap | so what does the anime project involve | 18:47 |
| zleap | i havre posted that link to the other channel | 18:47 |
| vish | zleap: i'm not sure either , you can ask Merula to comment on the blog... | 18:48 |
| zleap | what is the average age here | 18:48 |
| zleap | ok will ask | 18:49 |
| thorwil | 34.56 | 18:49 |
| vish | lol! | 18:50 |
| troy_s | I'm pretty sure that kwwii and I drag the average age up into the 'in dog years we are dead' zone. | 18:50 |
| Equiet | <Equiet> Hi. http://stelmaria.equiet.operaunite.com/file_sharing/content/_r1_c1.png // Have seen? | 18:51 |
| zleap | so what is this anime event then | 18:51 |
| zleap | what needs doing from a drawing / artistic viewpoint | 18:52 |
| vish | Equiet: whats the cross and the check mark for? | 18:52 |
| Equiet | vish: That means approved, rejected and pending. | 18:53 |
| vish | ah.. | 18:53 |
| Equiet | I was too lazy to find icons for that. | 18:54 |
| vish | Equiet: where does one comment? | 18:54 |
| thorwil | Equiet: talked with mizmo? | 18:55 |
| Equiet | vish: It's not done yet. | 18:55 |
| vish | ah.. | 18:55 |
| Equiet | Look only at upper half. | 18:55 |
| Equiet | thorwil: No. | 18:55 |
| Equiet | Who is mizmo? | 18:55 |
| vish | Equiet: mizmo is mairin | 18:56 |
| Equiet | Ah... | 18:56 |
| vish | Equiet: for a site which is to display the artwork , a bigger would be more ideal , IMO .. | 18:57 |
| zleap | http://divajutta.com/doctormo/ubunchu/ looks more useful | 18:57 |
| troy_s | zleap: I believe that Martin (that site) commissioned a few drawings at a local comicon. | 18:58 |
| troy_s | zleap: They should be somewhere on that blog. | 18:58 |
| zleap | ok | 18:58 |
| Equiet | vish: What to be bigger? | 18:59 |
| zleap | so they pay people or just get contributions | 18:59 |
| vish | Equiet: from your mockup , the thumbnail size at the top part is small... it would be better if it was bigger thumbnail... better perspective | 19:00 |
| troy_s | zleap: He paid the artists. | 19:01 |
| zleap | ah | 19:01 |
| troy_s | zleap: That said, the three of them are also very skilled. | 19:01 |
| zleap | so this project is still active then | 19:01 |
| troy_s | zleap: He is unlikely to pay anyone unless he would deem them in line with the view. | 19:01 |
| zleap | k | 19:02 |
| troy_s | zleap: No clue. But if you look at the samples, you will see that at least one is of solid quality. | 19:02 |
| troy_s | zleap: The other is questionable, and that said, I would be willing to say that it is probably 1000% better than what the community might be able to create. | 19:02 |
| troy_s | zleap: I'd like to think I was wrong, but I'd say it is a safe bet. | 19:02 |
| zleap | ok i have suggested to merula she gets in touch with the project directly | 19:05 |
| Equiet | Do you like http://stelmaria.equiet.operaunite.com/file_sharing/content/abstractive_r1_c1.jpg ? Isn't it too simple? | 19:07 |
| yemanja | for me it's beautiful :) | 19:08 |
| troy_s | zleap: Make sure that she actually has some work up. | 19:08 |
| yemanja | wish software you use to do it Equiet ? | 19:08 |
| Equiet | Adobe Fireworks CS4. | 19:08 |
| thorwil | Equiet: do you read abduzeedo? | 19:08 |
| troy_s | zleap: It is like showing up in a kernel channel and saying that you don't have any sample code etc up. | 19:08 |
| zleap | ok | 19:09 |
| Equiet | thorwil: Yes, I do. | 19:09 |
| thorwil | Equiet: that picture screams abduzeedo and not in a good way | 19:09 |
| zleap | ok i have offered to host a few files | 19:10 |
| Equiet | I used a font from there... | 19:10 |
| zleap | so we need to contact martin right | 19:10 |
| troy_s | zleap: And please explain to here that if she took offense to my comment, I apologies - that wasn't the intention. | 19:10 |
| troy_s | zleap: Although I suspect she just felt over her head with the manual link etc. | 19:10 |
| troy_s | zleap: I'd say it is pretty simple. Gather up some work, montage it in imagemagick or create a simple contact sheet of reasonable size, and get it to Martin. | 19:11 |
| troy_s | zleap: That's a pretty simple path. | 19:11 |
| troy_s | zleap: The work will likely speak for itself. | 19:11 |
| troy_s | zleap: (In either direction.) | 19:11 |
| zleap | ok | 19:14 |
| zleap | chat later | 19:44 |
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