[00:00] <kwwii> you cannot form a large group of very talented people from different fields and expect something in months
[00:00] <troy_s> kwwii: I think I'm the guy that would probably have been saying that from the start no? You are preaching to the choir.
[00:00] <kwwii> troy_s: you can see that as a positive factor...anything you do good is a break from the past :p
[00:00] <troy_s> kwwii: But Microsoft, with limitless money and bottomless ability to recruit is still Microsoft.
[00:01] <troy_s> kwwii: Which is why I still think this is a question of culture.
[00:01] <troy_s> kwwii: In the _meantime_... something that is a baby step in the right direction (or at least overarching apparent trending I could probably argue) is representational data.
[00:01] <troy_s> kwwii: You could probably push that overnight.
[00:02] <troy_s> kwwii: And no one would really notice
[00:02] <troy_s> kwwii: And it solves a 'problem' without doing any work.
[00:02] <troy_s> lol
[00:03] <troy_s> kwwii: Not to mention that a mailing list with 22(!!!) replies on a fricking Word document is ... what's the word... WTF.
[00:03] <kwwii> :)
[00:03] <troy_s> kwwii: Agree?
[00:03] <kwwii> yes. agreed
[00:04] <kwwii> I think that once the canonical design team shows their strengths the community might change a bit
[00:05] <troy_s> kwwii: Lol... I actually subscribed to the list again just to rant on that ridiculous thread but alas, I can't even reply to the fricking thread.
[00:05] <troy_s> kwwii: The memenu is the rallying cry. It shall be the beginning of something huge.
[00:05] <troy_s> kwwii: fskcing brutal.
[00:06] <troy_s> kwwii: Voldemort?
[00:08] <kwwii> troy_s: I think that once all the indicator menus are implemented, tested and such things will make more sense
[00:08] <kwwii> naturally, there is a lot to change
[00:09] <kwwii> but it will evolve and there is a plan for that
[00:09] <troy_s> kwwii: How about coming up with SOME aesthetic SOMEWHERE that is appealing to SOMEONE?
[00:09] <troy_s> kwwii: Does no one on that entire team know about the aesthetic usability effect?
[00:09] <troy_s> kwwii: You must just be sitting there squirming.
[00:10] <kwwii> troy_s: to be honest, I wish I could talk about some of the ideas we've discussed but I imagine I would lose my job *really* quickly
[00:10] <troy_s> kwwii: Yes I know. Why do you think I have _never_ pushed you on anything?
[00:10] <kwwii> again, the team is just now really gettig into high gear
[00:10] <troy_s> kwwii: Especially in a logged channel.
[00:10] <troy_s> kwwii: But let's face it, no one was talking about design around these parts until someone saw an economic upside.
[00:10] <kwwii> troy_s: lol, give it 6 months
[00:11] <troy_s> kwwii: No one mentionned art (and in fact, if you look closely, it's still tough to spot an artist / designer)
[00:11] <troy_s> kwwii: I hope D is given a large say in that gongshow of webpresence.
[00:12] <troy_s> kwwii: But time will tell. (Hell, how many others have his cred there?)
[00:12] <troy_s> kwwii: Side note, _WTF_ happened to Julian?
[00:12] <kwwii> lol
[00:12] <troy_s> kwwii: It is water way under the bridge now.
[00:12] <troy_s> kwwii: WAY
[00:13] <kwwii> I really liked Julian
[00:13] <troy_s> kwwii: Gee... because maybe he seemed to show that he had a shred of a clue and credibility?
[00:13] <kwwii> http://www.flickr.com/photos/kwwii/3331322429/
[00:13] <troy_s> kwwii: I don't imagine that anyone that has a shred of credibility turns into a patsy there.
[00:14] <kwwii> I think overall it was the case of the right person at the wrong time
[00:14] <troy_s> kwwii: Wow. Mirco's damn short.
[00:14] <troy_s> kwwii: LOL
[00:14] <troy_s> kwwii: That looks like Castro behind Mark there. When are those from?
[00:14] <kwwii> Ivanka (who he hired), has kinda taken over the roll but in her own amazing way
[00:14] <kwwii> she is really killer
[00:15] <kwwii> as a team, we are much more effective because of Ivanka
[00:15] <troy_s> kwwii: The _glaring_ hole is that there isn't any visual design going on. Anyone that has read the article knows full well that, like it or not, the aesthetic usability effect is _real_ and it in fact is more important than the _actual_ usability.
[00:16] <kwwii> troy_s: the developer sprint in Berlin a year and two weeks ago
[00:16] <troy_s> kwwii: So the visual design component is still a gongshow.
[00:16] <troy_s> kwwii: Too bad. I quite thought that Julian's approach to the workspace reenvisioning etc was _spot_ on.
[00:16] <troy_s> kwwii: And I'm sure that was an abortion when it came to implementation.
[00:17] <kwwii> troy_s: I understand what you're saying and why but I think you should give us a few months time to get things rolling
[00:17] <kwwii> I don't think that anything he did has died
[00:18] <kwwii> and with that, I will head off to bed
[00:18] <troy_s> kwwii: Is D's reach going to extend into the desktop?
[00:18] <troy_s> kwwii: Nacht.
[00:19] <kwwii> troy_s: dom is amazing and although his work on the desktop is very limited there are influences of his work...we are approaching this holistically
[00:19] <kwwii> troy_s: imagine all the touching points in really getting it right and then think about how much time and effort that would *really* be
[00:20] <troy_s> kwwii: I am not saying for a SECOND that any of this shit is simple or easy etc.
[00:20] <troy_s> kwwii: You full well know that.
[00:20] <kwwii> it might be hard for the community to understand how things work in general and even harder for those in the know because they expect something and see no results
[00:20] <troy_s> kwwii: Part of it, in fact, should be _eliminating_ touchpoints that are a gongshow.
[00:20] <troy_s> (good luck selling that one)
[00:20] <kwwii> in answer to that I say, wait it out...we're coming ;)
[00:21] <troy_s> kwwii: Well c'mon, it isn't like there is even a remote shred of a body of work or any sense of building.
[00:21] <troy_s> kwwii: So the community is entirely fair to be evaluating things in that light.
[00:21] <kwwii> troy_s: for any given release there are certain things you can improve and some you simply cannot, that does not mean that you don't have a master plan for the full future of all media
[00:21] <troy_s> kwwii: C'mon.
[00:22] <kwwii> troy_s: yes, there is little for anyone to feel or see until now
[00:22] <troy_s> kwwii: We could _just_ look at the wallpaper as symptomatic.
[00:22] <troy_s> kwwii: (And yes, I'm aware of that bearfight behind the doors)
[00:22] <troy_s> kwwii: Anyways, get some sleep
[00:22] <kwwii> troy_s: hey, brown is brown...it's cool
[00:22] <kwwii> :P
[00:22] <troy_s> kwwii: Brown is fine
[00:22] <troy_s> kwwii: Shit ability isn't.
[00:23] <kwwii> troy_s: just kidding
[00:23] <troy_s> kwwii: Hell... I'd dare say that if you dropped James White in there he'd say the same thing about brown.
[00:23] <troy_s> kwwii: Funniest part is that after all this time, brown's deadly chic right now.
[00:23] <troy_s> kwwii: But we still pooch it.
[00:23] <troy_s> kwwii: Now sleep.
[00:23] <kwwii> I actually included a picture of James Brown in jail in a presentation to Mark about new theme ideas
[00:24] <troy_s> kwwii: WHITE. lol
[00:24] <troy_s> kwwii: James WHITE. LOL
[00:24] <troy_s> lmao
[00:24] <troy_s> kwwii: Water flows down. You are in a desert.
[00:24] <kwwii> lol
[00:24] <troy_s> kwwii: Fertile ground not.
[00:24] <kwwii> lol
[00:25] <kwwii> how is it that I have never heard of James White?
[00:25] <kwwii> other than the SF author
[00:26] <troy_s> kwwii: He's a pretty hot commodity these days.
[00:26] <troy_s> kwwii: And talented as hell.
[00:27] <kwwii> troy_s: seen http://blog.chaotic.co.uk/
[00:27] <troy_s> kwwii: btdtgtts
[00:27] <kwwii> ?
[00:27] <troy_s> kwwii: been there done that
[00:27] <troy_s> blah blah
[00:27] <troy_s> kwwii: Yes.
[00:28] <troy_s> kwwii: I don't know if the solution is fanbois.
[00:28] <troy_s> kwwii: Of that ilk. With little passion or care.
[00:28] <troy_s> kwwii: Rather like Apple hiring a bunch of Microsoft fanbois.
[00:28] <troy_s> kwwii: Just two pennies, but it's weka.
[00:28] <troy_s> weak even
[00:28] <troy_s> kwwii: (Dare say that you'd probably agree on that front.)
[00:30] <kwwii> I dare say, we might just impress you yet ;-)
[00:32] <troy_s> kwwii: It isn't me you need to worry about. I'm just some dipsh*t.
[00:34] <kwwii> :P
[00:35] <troy_s> kwwii: Anyways, I don't think that data supports 'Yay'. lol. D for certain.
[00:35] <troy_s> kwwii: But that, not so much.
[10:01] <kwwii> good morning
[10:01] <iainfarrell> kwwii: morning :)
[10:02] <kwwii> iainfarrell: hey
[10:10] <zniavre> good morning
[10:11] <zniavre> there is somewhere nautilus 2.29 rgba support ppa's ?
[10:11]  * darkmatter hands kwwii a quadruple shot of espresso. gmornin', and get to work! ;p
[10:30] <thorwil> morning!
[10:38] <kwwii> darkmatter: hehe
[10:38] <kwwii> zniavre: not that I know of
[10:39] <kwwii> zniavre: we started doing rgba code in gtk itself but there were some major X errrors in a some apps so we've postponed that work
[10:39] <kwwii> hi thorwil, how's things?
[10:40] <thorwil> kwwii: hating myself for getting involved in the manual project despite having enough on the list :)
[10:41] <kwwii> lol
[10:41] <kwwii> thorwil: I imagine you could spend a lot of time on that
[10:42] <thorwil> font selection alone eats hours
[10:45] <kwwii> I can just imagine the discussions about layout and such are lots of fun
[10:46] <thorwil> there is no discussion on layout :)
[10:46] <kwwii> not yet, you eman
[10:46] <kwwii> mean
[10:46] <thorwil> we have a latex wizard and it seems like i can leave it to him
[10:47] <thorwil> the fun so far involved people thinking having a lynx on the title page would be a must
[10:48] <thorwil> thankfully i could convince the leader it's not :)
[11:07] <kwwii> thorwil: hehe, I used to do a *lot* of work with TeX (making the SuSE books)
[11:07] <kwwii> you have to know what your are doing to get the layout right
[11:08] <thorwil> i stopped using latex when being very happy with it turned into being fucking frustrated, because i could not even start to do layout invloving pictures with it
[11:10]  * thorwil -> lunch
[11:19] <kwwii> ;)
[12:25]  * vish hehe was happy when thorwil became the manual design-team leader ;p  
[12:26]  * vish back into woodwork
[12:34]  * darkmatter is decidedly unhappy after his walk
[15:00] <thorwil> tr
[15:28] <Equiet> Hi. http://stelmaria.equiet.operaunite.com/file_sharing/content/_r1_c1.png
[15:28] <Equiet> It's my mockup for http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/02/13/random-idea-for-design-collaboration-tool/ .
[15:29] <Equiet> The upper half is quite done.
[15:32] <kwwii> Equiet: intersting
[15:37] <Equiet> (Any feedback would be appreciated.)
[18:17] <zleap> hi Merula
[18:17] <Merula> hi :$
[18:17] <zleap> hi
[18:18] <Merula> it's.. quiet
[18:18] <zleap> yeah
[18:18] <zleap> mat_t, can you help Merula
[18:19] <Merula> can anyone? :/
[18:19] <zleap> lol
[18:20] <Merula> is anyone... here?
[18:20] <Merula> except us, zleap
[18:20] <zleap> yeah
[18:21] <zleap> the wonders of Free software, this,
[18:21]  * vish surprised at activity here ;)
[18:21] <Merula> oooh someone else
[18:21] <zleap> hi vish
[18:21] <zleap> can you help Merula please
[18:22] <vish> hi..
[18:22] <zleap> hi
[18:22] <vish> Merula: what's up?
[18:22] <Merula> care to explain, zleap? :/
[18:22] <Merula> else i'll make an eejit outta myself :P
[18:23] <zleap> ok Merula wants to look in to helping with the art project
[18:24] <vish> Merula: to start you can have a look at the wiki > http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork and some of the projects you can get involved in are listed there
[18:25] <Merula> but i';ve never done any of this stuff before :(
[18:25] <Merula> hence why i need help
[18:25] <vish> Merula: not sure i understand?  what are your interests ?  you are looking to be involved in which aspect?
[18:26] <Merula> im an expressive artist. i draw and paint and computer manipulate.
[18:27] <zleap> vish, i suggested looking here, as Merula said she wasnt a programmer or technical in that way
[18:28] <vish> Merula: do you have an online portfolio ?
[18:29] <Merula> erm... unless you include 12/13 yr old drawings then not at the moment :/
[18:29] <Merula> i can set one up?
[18:29] <vish> it not a problem , just wanted to have an insight :)
[18:29] <vish> its*
[18:29] <zleap> Merula, that sounds a good idea anyway
[18:30] <Merula> http://www.youtube.com/jennie140695  < = they're my old drawings on videos
[18:30] <vish> Merula: the official artwork is usually done and decided by the canonical design team , the community usually helps in the artwork as and when required
[18:31] <Merula> ok
[18:33] <zleap> so right now things are quiet, or is there a time of day when there is more activity
[18:34] <thorwil> it's pretty random
[18:34] <thorwil> but what do you expect?
[18:34] <zleap> well #ubuntu-uk is qutie busy
[18:34] <thorwil> *talking* about artwork all day? ;)
[18:34] <Merula> yes
[18:34] <zleap> so some channels have a peek times of activity
[18:34] <vish> ;)
[18:35] <vish> zleap: well , there is not much to keep talking about art all day ;)  ... the activity here is _very_ low
[18:35] <zleap> ok
[18:36] <Merula> what's the gender spread like? male dominated? (as per usual X_X)
[18:36] <vish> well its the web... gender doesnt really matter ;)
[18:36] <vish> Merula: it isnt clear what help you are looking for...
[18:37] <Merula> it was all zleap's idea *pokes*
[18:37] <zleap> hi
[18:37] <Merula> he said i could get more involved here
[18:37] <vish> Merula: the Canonical design team lead is a woman ... ;)
[18:37] <thorwil> troy_s: interesting showcase regarding design competitions: http://www.underconsideration.com/brandnew/archives/european_organic_euro-leaf.php
[18:37] <zleap> well i suggested irc as we were alrady in irc anyway
[18:38] <troy_s> thorwil: Greets brother. How you doing?
[18:38] <zleap> but you contribute according to what skills you have
[18:38] <Merula> vish: ok then
[18:38] <thorwil> troy_s: things move slowly :)
[18:38] <troy_s> Look at the 'End Justify Means' poll... LOL
[18:39] <vish> Merula: currently there is design work going on for the Ubuntu manual.. you can work on that if you are interested
[18:39] <Merula> what sort of design?
[18:39] <troy_s> Merula: You have a portfolio?
[18:39] <Merula> troy_s: no, i dont know how
[18:39] <troy_s> Merula: Hrm. What does that mean exactly? You don't know how to put samples of work up online?
[18:40] <Merula> erm, i;ve never done design before. like i said, i do expressive art. like cartoons and paintings...
[18:40] <Merula> that doesn't mean i can't do design
[18:40] <zleap> Merula, the manual is online,  i guess things like taking screen shots of applications
[18:40] <vish> Merula: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Artwork
[18:41] <troy_s> Merula: The point is though, everyone is largely strangers here. That means it is _extremely_ difficult to evaluate where someone would fit in with a given project.
[18:41] <zleap> Merula, to bring you upto speed, this project is to include a decent manual for users  in the next release 10.04
[18:43] <Merula> i don't think any of this is suited to me at all :/
[18:43] <Merula> sorry for the waste of time, guys
[18:43] <troy_s> LOL
[18:43] <troy_s> And I guess that is where it lays.
[18:43] <vish> troy_s: ;)  why do you intimidate ;p
[18:44] <troy_s> vish: I don't think that was intimidation.
[18:44] <vish> just kidding ;)
[18:44] <troy_s> vish: But enough already with the people that drop in for five minutes and want to do crap.
[18:44] <vish> troy_s: yeah , but Merula seemed to fit for the anime stuff ..
[18:45] <vish> zleap: there is the > http://doctormo.wordpress.com/2010/02/17/anime-boston-well-on-our-way/
[18:45] <troy_s> vish: How much effort does it take to push a project along?
[18:45] <troy_s> vish: And then wonder how long someone would last in a project of any depth if you aren't willing to spend what - five minutes chatting in IRC?
[18:46] <vish> troy_s: yeah , it was disappointing at the quit speed the user left :(
[18:47] <zleap> so what does the anime project involve
[18:47] <zleap> i havre posted that link to the other channel
[18:48] <vish> zleap: i'm not sure either , you can ask Merula to comment on the blog...
[18:48] <zleap> what is the average age here
[18:49] <zleap> ok will ask
[18:49] <thorwil> 34.56
[18:50] <vish> lol!
[18:50] <troy_s> I'm pretty sure that kwwii and I drag the average age up into the 'in dog years we are dead' zone.
 Hi. http://stelmaria.equiet.operaunite.com/file_sharing/content/_r1_c1.png // Have seen?
[18:51] <zleap> so what is this anime event then
[18:52] <zleap> what needs doing from a drawing / artistic viewpoint
[18:52] <vish> Equiet: whats the cross and the check mark for?
[18:53] <Equiet> vish: That means approved, rejected and pending.
[18:53] <vish> ah..
[18:54] <Equiet> I was too lazy to find icons for that.
[18:54] <vish> Equiet: where does one comment?
[18:55] <thorwil> Equiet: talked with mizmo?
[18:55] <Equiet> vish: It's not done yet.
[18:55] <vish> ah..
[18:55] <Equiet> Look only at upper half.
[18:55] <Equiet> thorwil: No.
[18:55] <Equiet> Who is mizmo?
[18:56] <vish> Equiet: mizmo is mairin
[18:56] <Equiet> Ah...
[18:57] <vish> Equiet: for a site which is to display the artwork , a bigger would be more ideal , IMO  ..
[18:57] <zleap> http://divajutta.com/doctormo/ubunchu/ looks more useful
[18:58] <troy_s> zleap: I believe that Martin (that site) commissioned a few drawings at a local comicon.
[18:58] <troy_s> zleap: They should be somewhere on that blog.
[18:58] <zleap> ok
[18:59] <Equiet> vish: What to be bigger?
[18:59] <zleap> so they pay people or just get contributions
[19:00] <vish> Equiet: from your mockup , the thumbnail size at the top part is small... it would be better if it was bigger thumbnail... better perspective
[19:01] <troy_s> zleap: He paid the artists.
[19:01] <zleap> ah
[19:01] <troy_s> zleap: That said, the three of them are also very skilled.
[19:01] <zleap> so this project is still active then
[19:01] <troy_s> zleap: He is unlikely to pay anyone unless he would deem them in line with the view.
[19:02] <zleap> k
[19:02] <troy_s> zleap: No clue. But if you look at the samples, you will see that at least one is of solid quality.
[19:02] <troy_s> zleap: The other is questionable, and that said, I would be willing to say that it is probably 1000% better than what the community might be able to create.
[19:02] <troy_s> zleap: I'd like to think I was wrong, but I'd say it is a safe bet.
[19:05] <zleap> ok i have suggested to merula she gets in touch with the project directly
[19:07] <Equiet> Do you like http://stelmaria.equiet.operaunite.com/file_sharing/content/abstractive_r1_c1.jpg ? Isn't it too simple?
[19:08] <yemanja> for me it's beautiful :)
[19:08] <troy_s> zleap: Make sure that she actually has some work up.
[19:08] <yemanja> wish software you use to do it Equiet ?
[19:08] <Equiet> Adobe Fireworks CS4.
[19:08] <thorwil> Equiet: do you read abduzeedo?
[19:08] <troy_s> zleap: It is like showing up in a kernel channel and saying that you don't have any sample code etc up.
[19:09] <zleap> ok
[19:09] <Equiet> thorwil: Yes, I do.
[19:09] <thorwil> Equiet: that picture screams abduzeedo and not in a good way
[19:10] <zleap> ok i have offered to host a few files
[19:10] <Equiet> I used a font from there...
[19:10] <zleap> so we need to contact martin right
[19:10] <troy_s> zleap: And please explain to here that if she took offense to my comment, I apologies - that wasn't the intention.
[19:10] <troy_s> zleap: Although I suspect she just felt over her head with the manual link etc.
[19:11] <troy_s> zleap: I'd say it is pretty simple. Gather up some work, montage it in imagemagick or create a simple contact sheet of reasonable size, and get it to Martin.
[19:11] <troy_s> zleap: That's a pretty simple path.
[19:11] <troy_s> zleap: The work will likely speak for itself.
[19:11] <troy_s> zleap: (In either direction.)
[19:14] <zleap> ok
[19:44] <zleap> chat later