| === Randolf is now known as wolter | ||
| wolter | do any of you use preload app? | 03:14 |
|---|---|---|
| wolter | hi | 07:51 |
| wolter | do any of you use preload? I pgrep it and it doesn't appear, but I don't know if thats normal | 07:51 |
| IlyaHaykinson | what's preload? | 07:51 |
| IlyaHaykinson | nevermind, found http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preload_%28software%29 | 07:52 |
| * ubuntujenkins is going to finish totem tonight | 07:54 | |
| * IlyaHaykinson hopes to finish Evolution tomorrow | 07:54 | |
| ubuntujenkins | IlyaHaykinson do you want me to do tomboy? Ben also added quickscan to the wiki | 07:55 |
| IlyaHaykinson | quickscan should not go into the default apps chapter, it should go into hardware | 07:57 |
| IlyaHaykinson | which already is supposed to have a section on scanning | 07:57 |
| ubuntujenkins | that was what I thought, how is the hardware section going? | 07:58 |
| IlyaHaykinson | however, if you can do tomboy that'd be great. note the Ubuntu One sync is part of it though, which matt griffin is supposed to be working on (along with rhythmbox) | 07:58 |
| IlyaHaykinson | i'll check in with matt and cc you, we'll see if he's still up to writing those sections | 07:59 |
| IlyaHaykinson | btw, great work on your sections! i went through and made some edits to the empathy section, but overall really wonderful stuff. | 07:59 |
| ubuntujenkins | I spoke to matt griffin after the last meeting and he said he had been doing some work on ubuntu one | 07:59 |
| ubuntujenkins | thnaks hopefully i have reduced the changes in the other sections | 07:59 |
| IlyaHaykinson | well, he works at canonical on ubuntu one :) so _hopefully_ he's doing some work on it :) | 08:00 |
| IlyaHaykinson | hopefully, though, he's also working on the manual sections for it :) | 08:00 |
| ubuntujenkins | If I see him I will ask him to add his stuff to the branch | 08:00 |
| ubuntujenkins | *on irc :) | 08:00 |
| IlyaHaykinson | nod. | 08:01 |
| IlyaHaykinson | thx | 08:01 |
| ubuntujenkins | you must be up very late | 08:01 |
| IlyaHaykinson | it's midnight... not too horrible. | 08:01 |
| ubuntujenkins | cool | 08:01 |
| IlyaHaykinson | sent matt an email (cc'ed you) | 08:04 |
| godbyk | Hey, thorwil | 08:16 |
| thorwil | hi godbyk | 08:16 |
| godbyk | I've been looking at fonts lately. | 08:16 |
| godbyk | I've been working on making a list of the glyphs that each language requires, so we can find fonts that support each of the languages we're translating to. | 08:17 |
| godbyk | It's a pain. | 08:17 |
| godbyk | I think I may push that back for a bit and just work on the basic (English) design for now and come back to the other languages a bit later. | 08:17 |
| godbyk | thorwil: Of the fonts you posted, do you have any favorites? | 08:18 |
| thorwil | godbyk: i need to know what to use for the latin-languages, so my test is all about that. doesn't need to be the same font for other character sets, as they have different characteristics (in other words, it doesn't look so much like a single font, anyway) | 08:19 |
| thorwil | godbyk: no, i need to have a closer look at my own test. what i saw immediately is that the "Ub" pair is very unfortunate in many serif fonts | 08:20 |
| thorwil | it's really sad how many free/open fonts have kerning issues. although this helps to make a selection | 08:21 |
| godbyk | I agree with all of the above. :) | 08:23 |
| godbyk | It's surprising how many open fonts also have missing glyphs.. sometimes just one or two short to handle the language you want. | 08:23 |
| godbyk | I guess we're only really limited to open fonts if we want others to be able to compile the PDF. :-P | 08:24 |
| thorwil | and no bold for Gentium, only bold for Gentium (Book) Basic | 08:24 |
| * ubuntujenkins recives e-mail | 08:24 | |
| godbyk | It'd be nice if we had a font that had small caps, too, given the number of acronyms we have. | 08:25 |
| thorwil | godbyk: there's a practical and an ideological side to that ;) | 08:25 |
| godbyk | But those seem to be missing in most of the free fonts, too. | 08:25 |
| godbyk | I know. :) | 08:25 |
| thorwil | although i like to think the free software ideology is actually long term pragmatism :) | 08:25 |
| godbyk | Since we're trying to keep the manual friendly, accessible, and, well, human, it would be nice if we had a good humanist sans for the sidenotes. | 08:26 |
| thorwil | godbyk: i think 2 or 3 of the fonts in my set do have a small caps set | 08:26 |
| godbyk | I think that's a good way of thinking about free software. I view it that way, too. (I like my data to be free!) | 08:27 |
| thorwil | godbyk: are we going to use italic? perhaps to avoid quotes in the body text? | 08:29 |
| godbyk | I prefer italic, yeah. | 08:30 |
| godbyk | Most of this bold stuff is going to go away, I think. | 08:31 |
| godbyk | Much of it can be replaced with quotation marks or italics and it'll look nice. | 08:31 |
| godbyk | nicer, rather. | 08:31 |
| godbyk | the roman and italic don't need to be the same font, as long as their proportions are relatively similar. | 08:32 |
| godbyk | (I can have XeLaTeX scale the fonts so their x-heights match.) | 08:32 |
| thorwil | yes, i said that, too ;) | 08:32 |
| godbyk | Are we supposed to have the translated versions done by beta (March 18th), too? | 08:33 |
| thorwil | i don't think so | 08:34 |
| godbyk | Do you recall which of these fonts have small caps? | 08:36 |
| godbyk | I'm just glancing through them at the moment looking at the kerning and character of the type. | 08:36 |
| godbyk | Man, I should've fixed this whole "word space, em dash, word space" thing a long time ago. Blech. | 08:37 |
| thorwil | sorry, no. fontmatrix is no help there, either | 08:37 |
| godbyk | I like fontmatrix, but it's missing some features that would be really handy on this project. :-) | 08:37 |
| godbyk | (like the ability to filter by supported orthographies.) | 08:38 |
| godbyk | (or even supported unicode blocks.) | 08:38 |
| thorwil | i have my problems getting used to the long dash without spaces, as you won't ever see that in german | 08:38 |
| godbyk | Well, I would prefer to replace it with, say, \dash.. then we could define \dash on a per-language basis. | 08:39 |
| godbyk | em dash for American English, en dash for British English, etc. | 08:40 |
| thorwil | do that, then :) | 08:40 |
| godbyk | I will at some point. | 08:41 |
| godbyk | (That'll piss off the translators! :-)) | 08:41 |
| thorwil | (as if typography wasn't difficult enough in a single language) | 08:41 |
| godbyk | Baskervald ADF Std is missing some of the glyphs (like the u-macron. | 08:41 |
| godbyk | no doubt! | 08:41 |
| godbyk | I feel halfway competent enough to design this manual in English. But for other languages.. not at all. | 08:42 |
| godbyk | I would love for it to look as great in each person's language as it does in the English version, but I don't have the skills/knowledge to pull that off. | 08:42 |
| thorwil | i can only help with the german edition | 08:43 |
| godbyk | Handily, German is one of the better languages to use LaTeX with. | 08:44 |
| godbyk | Tribun ADF Med Std. looks like it's been squashed vertically. | 08:44 |
| godbyk | like the x-height is too short for the width of the chars. | 08:45 |
| godbyk | It's also missing the u-macron and u-breve glyphs. | 08:45 |
| godbyk | Norasi is missing those glyphs, too. | 08:45 |
| godbyk | Verana is missing them, too. | 08:46 |
| godbyk | I know Esperanto needs the u-breve glyph. Not sure what other languages need it right off. | 08:48 |
| * thorwil makes list | 08:49 | |
| thorwil | heh, my font test SVGs seem to be a good way to make nautilus crash | 08:51 |
| godbyk | nice. | 08:52 |
| godbyk | for some reason inkscape takes 10-15 minutes to load for me. | 08:52 |
| godbyk | wondering if it's because I have so many fonts installed. | 08:52 |
| thorwil | yes, it's becuse of the fonts | 08:52 |
| godbyk | figures. | 08:53 |
| godbyk | lemme glance at the sans serif fonts you show | 08:53 |
| godbyk | just gonna ramble on stream-of-consciousness-style. | 08:53 |
| godbyk | Helvetian seems really open, large, and, well, boring. | 08:54 |
| godbyk | whoops, that was FreeSans. | 08:54 |
| godbyk | Linux Biolinum O has more character, which I like. I'll look at its kerning and language coverage in a bit. | 08:56 |
| godbyk | the others on the top row all seem boring. | 08:57 |
| godbyk | (maybe it's just me.) | 08:57 |
| godbyk | are there any sans that have old-style figures? | 08:58 |
| thorwil | *shrug* | 08:58 |
| godbyk | thorwil: Are you running TeX Live 2009? | 08:59 |
| thorwil | godbyk: i'm running whatever is in karmic, i guess | 09:00 |
| godbyk | That's 2007. | 09:00 |
| godbyk | I'm going to copy your text from the svg and put it on a LaTeX doc so we can see how things come out there, too. | 09:01 |
| thorwil | hmm, Ikarius isn't really sans | 09:05 |
| godbyk | thorwil: I just emailed you a .tex file you can use to test fonts with. | 09:10 |
| godbyk | I just took your text from the inkscape file and dropped it into a .tex file. | 09:10 |
| thorwil | cool | 09:10 |
| godbyk | You just need to put the font name in the \setmainfont{} command and run it with 'xelatex'. | 09:10 |
| godbyk | (not pdflatex, not latex, but xelatex.) | 09:10 |
| godbyk | It'll also make smaller PDFs that can be passed around for more opinions. :-) | 09:11 |
| godbyk | Yeah, Ikarius is a slab serif. | 09:12 |
| thorwil | i vaguely recall putting it there because the overall character seemed more sans to me | 09:13 |
| godbyk | Gillius isn't bad.. a Gill Sans clone. | 09:14 |
| godbyk | thorwil: What do you think of Fontin and Fontin Sans? | 09:19 |
| thorwil | don't have those | 09:21 |
| godbyk | http://www.josbuivenga.demon.nl/fontin.html and http://www.josbuivenga.demon.nl/fontinsans.html | 09:22 |
| godbyk | I like the sans. | 09:22 |
| godbyk | Not sure about the serif yet. | 09:23 |
| thorwil | i need to restart my session to get nautilus to behave again :/ | 09:33 |
| godbyk | scratch the fontin stuff.. it doesn't have the chars we want, and it also misbehaving a bit. | 09:38 |
| thorwil | godbyk: i guess it's Biolinum or DejaVu Sans (or one of the similars where the bold isn't that bold) for the sans | 09:41 |
| godbyk | thorwil: I do like Linux Biolinum O.. it has small caps (yay!), but no italics, though. | 09:43 |
| thorwil | i wonder what the difference between BGP Galho and Rioni is | 09:47 |
| thorwil | the first 3 sans have a nicer "a" than DejaVu Sans | 09:51 |
| godbyk | I'm looking at the Libertine fonts site now. | 09:53 |
| godbyk | brb | 09:53 |
| godbyk | back | 09:55 |
| thorwil | godbyk: do you agree with limiting the sans choices to 1, 2, 3, 4 and 9? | 10:11 |
| godbyk | lemme look | 10:11 |
| thorwil | godbyk: 1, 2, 3 are all quite similar, but 1 and 2 have a nicer 1 and french quotation marks, while 3 has better kerning after "T" | 10:13 |
| godbyk | yeah, 1-3 look about the same. | 10:13 |
| godbyk | The French quotation marks do look pretty lame in 3. | 10:15 |
| godbyk | I'm playing with the Libertine fonts at the moment: http://linuxlibertine.sourceforge.net/Libertine-EN.html#styles | 10:15 |
| godbyk | (Check out a couple of the PDFs they have.) | 10:15 |
| godbyk | thorwil: I'm starting to think that the Libertine fonts may be the way to go. Do you see any problems with them? | 10:20 |
| thorwil | great stuff | 10:20 |
| thorwil | godbyk: with Libertine, the end of the "u" is a bit strange and the "Ub" combo is bad | 10:23 |
| godbyk | I don't think the foot of the "u" is bad... better than it having just a flat serif. | 10:26 |
| godbyk | Let me play with the "Ub" kerning a sec. | 10:27 |
| thorwil | i'm down to 1, 2, 4, 5, 8, 9, 10 for serifs | 10:30 |
| thorwil | -8 | 10:32 |
| godbyk | kerning on 8 is horrible, yeah. | 10:32 |
| thorwil | -10 as it does look stretched | 10:33 |
| godbyk | kerning of quotes and apostrophes on 9 seems off | 10:33 |
| godbyk | yeah, isn't that weird?! | 10:34 |
| godbyk | I like the idea behind Gentium, but as a body font is just looks too... bouncy. | 10:34 |
| godbyk | 2 might be a little heavy. | 10:35 |
| thorwil | that's a slight kerning issue at 9, but since it also has no Cyrillic ... bye | 10:36 |
| godbyk | is there cyrillic in the sample text? | 10:38 |
| godbyk | or are you looking elsewhere? | 10:38 |
| thorwil | yes, 2 seems a bit heavy, but it's a great font | 10:38 |
| godbyk | yeah, I guess I'm just not looking for a book font. | 10:38 |
| thorwil | godbyk: upper rows have cyrillic, lower not | 10:38 |
| godbyk | ah, gotcha. | 10:38 |
| godbyk | what's left in the running? | 10:38 |
| thorwil | 1, 2, 4, 5 | 10:39 |
| godbyk | k | 10:39 |
| godbyk | I keep seeing kerning issues on all of these.. | 10:39 |
| godbyk | after we pick one, we might have to look into fixing the kern tables or something. | 10:39 |
| godbyk | fwiw, I don't like the italic on 1. | 10:40 |
| godbyk | it looks more like a computer-generated italic instead of a true italic. | 10:40 |
| godbyk | (slant vs. italic) | 10:40 |
| thorwil | yes, weak | 10:41 |
| godbyk | 5 has ligatures that look nice | 10:42 |
| * godbyk checks to see if the others have ligs | 10:42 | |
| godbyk | 4 doesn't seem to have ligatures | 10:43 |
| godbyk | 2 has ligatures | 10:44 |
| thorwil | godbyk: 4 has a nasty "r" and a bit to squarish letter forms for our tone | 10:44 |
| godbyk | 1 looks okay (whether is has ligatures or just doesn't need them) | 10:45 |
| thorwil | down to 1, 2, 5 | 10:45 |
| godbyk | yeah, the serifs on 4 are kind of flat. | 10:46 |
| godbyk | gotta love nit-picking fonts! | 10:46 |
| godbyk | 1 and 2 don't have small caps. | 10:48 |
| godbyk | the italic on 1 bugs me. | 10:49 |
| godbyk | looks fake | 10:49 |
| godbyk | in fact, looking at the glyph table of the italic font for 1, *everything* has been slanted.. even glyphs that shouldn't be. | 10:50 |
| thorwil | so we would have to use another font, or drop 1 all together | 10:52 |
| godbyk | right. | 10:52 |
| thorwil | x-height in 1 is not the most beautiful, so bye | 10:53 |
| godbyk | so we're left with 2 and 5? | 10:54 |
| godbyk | lemme run both those through this program, see what languages they support | 10:54 |
| thorwil | yes | 10:56 |
| godbyk | they're both pretty good | 10:56 |
| godbyk | so far: | 10:56 |
| godbyk | 5 has hebrew and 1 doesn't. | 10:57 |
| godbyk | 1 has a couple languages that I've never heard of and that we're not translating to (yet) | 10:57 |
| godbyk | oh, wait, 5 has both those, too. | 10:57 |
| godbyk | 5 just has some other stuff in between. sorry. | 10:58 |
| godbyk | 5 has archaic greek letters (for our ancient greek translation, maybe), 1 doesn't. | 10:58 |
| godbyk | (not that I'm holding that against 1!) | 10:58 |
| godbyk | 5 has full basic greek and 1 has fragmentary, though. 1 only covers 60%. | 10:59 |
| godbyk | 5 has latin ligatures, and 1 doesn't. | 11:00 |
| godbyk | (though in its defense, I don't think 1 requires them, since the overhangs and stems are so short) | 11:00 |
| godbyk | 5 has only 95% coverage of Pan-Latin African, whereas 1 has full coverage. | 11:00 |
| godbyk | (I don't think we're translating to any African languages yet.) | 11:01 |
| thorwil | 2 really does say "book" | 11:01 |
| thorwil | godbyk: so 5 | 11:01 |
| thorwil | ? | 11:01 |
| godbyk | sure, sounds good to me. | 11:02 |
| godbyk | I like 2 as a font.. | 11:02 |
| godbyk | just not for this manual, as much. | 11:02 |
| godbyk | as an added bonus, 5 comes with latex packages. :-) | 11:02 |
| thorwil | godbyk: Biolinum appears to have the matching color, but Gillius might be a good match, too, briefly looking | 11:04 |
| godbyk | thorwil: http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/l.pdf | 11:05 |
| godbyk | we can play with the Ub kerning sometime if you want. | 11:05 |
| godbyk | I do like Biolinum, but it appears to have just been started, so it's not as complete. | 11:05 |
| godbyk | I'm not sure if we'll run into problems with it or not. | 11:06 |
| godbyk | I like what I see so far, though. :-) | 11:06 |
| godbyk | let me see what coverage it has. | 11:07 |
| thorwil | godbyk: the obvious problem is that adding space to not have the serifs collide makes the pair fall apart everywhere else | 11:07 |
| thorwil | godbyk: 3 would be the maximum for me and one might opt for 0 | 11:07 |
| godbyk | thorwil: yeah, that is the problem. | 11:08 |
| godbyk | the first line (unnumbered) is unkerned. | 11:08 |
| godbyk | each one after that is kerned +0.01em per line | 11:08 |
| godbyk | I think that 1 strikes an okay balance. | 11:09 |
| godbyk | not too separated, but not kissing like the original | 11:09 |
| thorwil | yes | 11:09 |
| godbyk | (though the serifs in the original aren't technically overlapping, they come as close as they can!) | 11:09 |
| godbyk | Since I imagine Ubuntu is the only word that has this combo (that we'll use frequently enough for people to notice), I'll make an \Ubuntu command to set it nicely | 11:10 |
| thorwil | heh | 11:10 |
| * thorwil -> lunch | 11:10 | |
| godbyk | .Biolinum actually has a lot better coverage than I anticipated. | 11:12 |
| godbyk | thorwil: Here's what the manual looks like with the new fonts: http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual-en_GB.pdf | 11:26 |
| godbyk | (Note that I haven't turned on any of the nice opentype features yet, so some things may look funky.) | 11:26 |
| TommyBrunn | godbyk: I don't think this is related to the font selection, but what's up with the horrible jaggedness of the first page? :S | 11:42 |
| godbyk | what page number? | 11:42 |
| TommyBrunn | The cover page | 11:43 |
| TommyBrunn | The very first one. | 11:43 |
| TommyBrunn | With the Lynx on. | 11:43 |
| godbyk | oh, you mean how ugly the whole thing looks? | 11:44 |
| godbyk | it's a PNG graphic that's been scaled up to a full page. | 11:44 |
| TommyBrunn | godbyk: Yes, that's what I figured. Please tell me that will be replaced with a full-scale one as the manual gets closer to release? | 11:46 |
| godbyk | TommyBrunn: It absolutely will. | 11:46 |
| godbyk | It's just that, at the moment, Inkscape chokes a bit when it generates a PDF from the SVG. | 11:47 |
| godbyk | (Something to do with the transparency or gradients or somesuch.) | 11:47 |
| TommyBrunn | Oh good. The general look of it is great, but the quality of it made me a bit concerned. :P | 11:48 |
| godbyk | I hear ya. No worries, we'll be getting to that soon, too. | 11:50 |
| cjohnston | dutchie: looks like all the classes are scheduled? | 11:52 |
| thorwil | godbyk: so serif for body text, all headlines in sans. marginals sans, too, perhaps? | 11:56 |
| godbyk | Yep. | 11:56 |
| godbyk | I was just playing with the marginals, trying out sans for them. | 11:56 |
| godbyk | http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/main.pdf | 11:57 |
| godbyk | It's 6 a.m. here; I should go to bed soon. | 11:57 |
| godbyk | I like the old-style numbers. | 11:59 |
| thorwil | good | 11:59 |
| godbyk | When I wake up, I'll set up the \dash command, the spacing for units (like 5 GB), and small-caps for acronyms. | 11:59 |
| godbyk | Then we can start tidying up the rest of the document format. :) | 12:00 |
| TommyBrunn | Something has been kind of bothering me lately. Does the project have Canonical's permission to use their trademark and logo? Do we even need it? | 12:04 |
| godbyk | TommyBrunn: http://www.ubuntu.com/aboutus/trademarkpolicy | 12:05 |
| TommyBrunn | Oh, I see. That's good. | 12:06 |
| thorwil | godbyk: i'm writing a mail to the list about our choices. | 12:12 |
| godbyk | Oh, about the fonts we chose? | 12:12 |
| thorwil | yes | 12:12 |
| godbyk | gotcha | 12:13 |
| thorwil | godbyk: to trigger the complaints we will likely ignore as soon as possible ;) | 12:13 |
| godbyk | thorwil: heh.. no doubt. sounds like a plan! | 12:13 |
| godbyk | http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/main.pdf | 12:50 |
| godbyk | I converted the prologue and installation chapters to use the \dash command and also converted some things to small caps and set up the units package for spacing (between, for example, 3 and GB). | 12:51 |
| godbyk | let me know what you think. | 12:51 |
| godbyk | I'm gong to sleep now. | 12:51 |
| godbyk | (leave messages here or email) | 12:51 |
| thorwil | ok | 12:59 |
| thorwil | godbyk: section titles like Prologue should be sans | 12:59 |
| thorwil | "ubuntu 10.04" with text figures is awesome | 13:00 |
| thorwil | maybe we should reserve a color for links (headings couldn't have the same, then) | 13:03 |
| thorwil | godbyk: smallest headline level could have no space below, if the following text has first line indent | 13:05 |
| thorwil | not happy with those rectangles as bullet points. maybe just classic dashes, left aligned with body text? | 13:07 |
| thorwil | ------- | 13:09 |
| dutchie | cjohnston: I've put times down for all of them, but they haven't all been confirmed with the speakers | 13:52 |
| cjohnston | dutchie: PM? | 14:06 |
| dutchie | cjohnston: go for it | 14:07 |
| dutchie | http://podcast.ubuntu-uk.org/2010/02/17/s03e01-the-golden-web/ # got a mention on there | 14:45 |
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