=== Randolf is now known as wolter
wolterdo any of you use preload app?03:14
wolterdo any of you use preload? I pgrep it and it doesn't appear, but I don't know if thats normal07:51
IlyaHaykinsonwhat's preload?07:51
IlyaHaykinsonnevermind, found http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preload_%28software%2907:52
* ubuntujenkins is going to finish totem tonight07:54
* IlyaHaykinson hopes to finish Evolution tomorrow07:54
ubuntujenkinsIlyaHaykinson do you want me to do tomboy? Ben also added quickscan to the wiki07:55
IlyaHaykinsonquickscan should not go into the default apps chapter, it should go into hardware07:57
IlyaHaykinsonwhich already is supposed to have a section on scanning07:57
ubuntujenkinsthat was what I thought, how is the hardware section going?07:58
IlyaHaykinsonhowever, if you can do tomboy that'd be great. note the Ubuntu One sync is part of it though, which matt griffin is supposed to be working on (along with rhythmbox)07:58
IlyaHaykinsoni'll check in with matt and cc you, we'll see if he's still up to writing those sections07:59
IlyaHaykinsonbtw, great work on your sections! i went through and made some edits to the empathy section, but overall really wonderful stuff.07:59
ubuntujenkinsI spoke to matt griffin after the last meeting and he said he had been doing some work on ubuntu one07:59
ubuntujenkinsthnaks hopefully i have reduced the changes in the other sections07:59
IlyaHaykinsonwell, he works at canonical on ubuntu one :) so _hopefully_ he's doing some work on it :)08:00
IlyaHaykinsonhopefully, though, he's also working on the manual sections for it :)08:00
ubuntujenkinsIf I see him I will ask him to add his stuff to the branch08:00
ubuntujenkins*on irc :)08:00
ubuntujenkinsyou must be up very late08:01
IlyaHaykinsonit's midnight... not too horrible.08:01
IlyaHaykinsonsent matt an email (cc'ed you)08:04
godbykHey, thorwil08:16
thorwilhi godbyk08:16
godbykI've been looking at fonts lately.08:16
godbykI've been working on making a list of the glyphs that each language requires, so we can find fonts that support each of the languages we're translating to.08:17
godbykIt's a pain.08:17
godbykI think I may push that back for a bit and just work on the basic (English) design for now and come back to the other languages a bit later.08:17
godbykthorwil: Of the fonts you posted, do you have any favorites?08:18
thorwilgodbyk: i need to know what to use for the latin-languages, so my test is all about that. doesn't need to be the same font for other character sets, as they have different characteristics (in other words, it doesn't look so much like a single font, anyway)08:19
thorwilgodbyk: no, i need to have a closer look at my own test. what i saw immediately is that the "Ub" pair is very unfortunate in many serif fonts08:20
thorwilit's really sad how many free/open fonts have kerning issues. although this helps to make a selection08:21
godbykI agree with all of the above. :)08:23
godbykIt's surprising how many open fonts also have missing glyphs.. sometimes just one or two short to handle the language you want.08:23
godbykI guess we're only really limited to open fonts if we want others to be able to compile the PDF. :-P08:24
thorwiland no bold for Gentium, only bold for Gentium (Book) Basic08:24
* ubuntujenkins recives e-mail08:24
godbykIt'd be nice if we had a font that had small caps, too, given the number of acronyms we have.08:25
thorwilgodbyk: there's a practical and an ideological side to that ;)08:25
godbykBut those seem to be missing in most of the free fonts, too.08:25
godbykI know. :)08:25
thorwilalthough i like to think the free software ideology is actually long term pragmatism :)08:25
godbykSince we're trying to keep the manual friendly, accessible, and, well, human, it would be nice if we had a good humanist sans for the sidenotes.08:26
thorwilgodbyk: i think 2 or 3 of the fonts in my set do have a small caps set08:26
godbykI think that's a good way of thinking about free software.  I view it that way, too.  (I like my data to be free!)08:27
thorwilgodbyk: are we going to use italic? perhaps to avoid quotes in the body text?08:29
godbykI prefer italic, yeah.08:30
godbykMost of this bold stuff is going to go away, I think.08:31
godbykMuch of it can be replaced with quotation marks or italics and it'll look nice.08:31
godbyknicer, rather.08:31
godbykthe roman and italic don't need to be the same font, as long as their proportions are relatively similar.08:32
godbyk(I can have XeLaTeX scale the fonts so their x-heights match.)08:32
thorwilyes, i said that, too ;)08:32
godbykAre we supposed to have the translated versions done by beta (March 18th), too?08:33
thorwili don't think so08:34
godbykDo you recall which of these fonts have small caps?08:36
godbykI'm just glancing through them at the moment looking at the kerning and character of the type.08:36
godbykMan, I should've fixed this whole "word space, em dash, word space" thing a long time ago.  Blech.08:37
thorwilsorry, no. fontmatrix is no help there, either08:37
godbykI like fontmatrix, but it's missing some features that would be really handy on this project. :-)08:37
godbyk(like the ability to filter by supported orthographies.)08:38
godbyk(or even supported unicode blocks.)08:38
thorwili have my problems getting used to the long dash without spaces, as you won't ever see that in german08:38
godbykWell, I would prefer to replace it with, say, \dash.. then we could define \dash on a per-language basis.08:39
godbykem dash for American English, en dash for British English, etc.08:40
thorwildo that, then :)08:40
godbykI will at some point.08:41
godbyk(That'll piss off the translators! :-))08:41
thorwil(as if typography wasn't difficult enough in a single language)08:41
godbykBaskervald ADF Std is missing some of the glyphs (like the u-macron.08:41
godbykno doubt!08:41
godbykI feel halfway competent enough to design this manual in English.  But for other languages.. not at all.08:42
godbykI would love for it to look as great in each person's language as it does in the English version, but I don't have the skills/knowledge to pull that off.08:42
thorwili can only help with the german edition08:43
godbykHandily, German is one of the better languages to use LaTeX with.08:44
godbykTribun ADF Med Std. looks like it's been squashed vertically.08:44
godbyklike the x-height is too short for the width of the chars.08:45
godbykIt's also missing the u-macron and u-breve glyphs.08:45
godbykNorasi is missing those glyphs, too.08:45
godbykVerana is missing them, too.08:46
godbykI know Esperanto needs the u-breve glyph.  Not sure what other languages need it right off.08:48
* thorwil makes list08:49
thorwilheh, my font test SVGs seem to be a good way to make nautilus crash08:51
godbykfor some reason inkscape takes 10-15 minutes to load for me.08:52
godbykwondering if it's because I have so many fonts installed.08:52
thorwilyes, it's becuse of the fonts08:52
godbyklemme glance at the sans serif fonts you show08:53
godbykjust gonna ramble on stream-of-consciousness-style.08:53
godbykHelvetian seems really open, large, and, well, boring.08:54
godbykwhoops, that was FreeSans.08:54
godbykLinux Biolinum O has more character, which I like.  I'll look at its kerning and language coverage in a bit.08:56
godbykthe others on the top row all seem boring.08:57
godbyk(maybe it's just me.)08:57
godbykare there any sans that have old-style figures?08:58
godbykthorwil: Are you running TeX Live 2009?08:59
thorwilgodbyk: i'm running whatever is in karmic, i guess09:00
godbykThat's 2007.09:00
godbykI'm going to copy your text from the svg and put it on a LaTeX doc so we can see how things come out there, too.09:01
thorwilhmm, Ikarius isn't really sans09:05
godbykthorwil: I just emailed you a .tex file you can use to test fonts with.09:10
godbykI just took your text from the inkscape file and dropped it into a .tex file.09:10
godbykYou just need to put the font name in the \setmainfont{} command and run it with 'xelatex'.09:10
godbyk(not pdflatex, not latex, but xelatex.)09:10
godbykIt'll also make smaller PDFs that can be passed around for more opinions. :-)09:11
godbykYeah, Ikarius is a slab serif.09:12
thorwili vaguely recall putting it there because the overall character seemed more sans to me09:13
godbykGillius isn't bad.. a Gill Sans clone.09:14
godbykthorwil: What do you think of Fontin and Fontin Sans?09:19
thorwildon't have those09:21
godbykhttp://www.josbuivenga.demon.nl/fontin.html and http://www.josbuivenga.demon.nl/fontinsans.html09:22
godbykI like the sans.09:22
godbykNot sure about the serif yet.09:23
thorwili need to restart my session to get nautilus to behave again :/09:33
godbykscratch the fontin stuff.. it doesn't have the chars we want, and it also misbehaving a bit.09:38
thorwilgodbyk: i guess it's Biolinum or DejaVu Sans (or one of the similars where the bold isn't that bold) for the sans09:41
godbykthorwil: I do like Linux Biolinum O.. it has small caps (yay!), but no italics, though.09:43
thorwili wonder what the difference between BGP Galho and Rioni is09:47
thorwilthe first 3 sans have a nicer "a" than DejaVu Sans09:51
godbykI'm looking at the Libertine fonts site now.09:53
thorwilgodbyk: do you agree with limiting the sans choices to 1, 2, 3, 4 and 9?10:11
godbyklemme look10:11
thorwilgodbyk: 1, 2, 3 are all quite similar, but 1 and 2 have a nicer 1 and french quotation marks, while 3 has better kerning after "T"10:13
godbykyeah, 1-3 look about the same.10:13
godbykThe French quotation marks do look pretty lame in 3.10:15
godbykI'm playing with the Libertine fonts at the moment: http://linuxlibertine.sourceforge.net/Libertine-EN.html#styles10:15
godbyk(Check out a couple of the PDFs they have.)10:15
godbykthorwil: I'm starting to think that the Libertine fonts may be the way to go.  Do you see any problems with them?10:20
thorwilgreat stuff10:20
thorwilgodbyk: with Libertine, the end of the "u" is a bit strange and the "Ub" combo is bad10:23
godbykI don't think the foot of the "u" is bad... better than it having just a flat serif.10:26
godbykLet me play with the "Ub" kerning a sec.10:27
thorwili'm down to 1, 2, 4, 5, 8, 9, 10 for serifs10:30
godbykkerning on 8 is horrible, yeah.10:32
thorwil-10 as it does look stretched10:33
godbykkerning of quotes and apostrophes on 9 seems off10:33
godbykyeah, isn't that weird?!10:34
godbykI like the idea behind Gentium, but as a body font is just looks too... bouncy.10:34
godbyk2 might be a little heavy.10:35
thorwilthat's a slight kerning issue at 9, but since it also has no Cyrillic ... bye10:36
godbykis there cyrillic in the sample text?10:38
godbykor are you looking elsewhere?10:38
thorwilyes, 2 seems a bit heavy, but it's a great font10:38
godbykyeah, I guess I'm just not looking for a book font.10:38
thorwilgodbyk: upper rows have cyrillic, lower not10:38
godbykah, gotcha.10:38
godbykwhat's left in the running?10:38
thorwil1, 2, 4, 510:39
godbykI keep seeing kerning issues on all of these..10:39
godbykafter we pick one, we might have to look into fixing the kern tables or something.10:39
godbykfwiw, I don't like the italic on 1.10:40
godbykit looks more like a computer-generated italic instead of a true italic.10:40
godbyk(slant vs. italic)10:40
thorwilyes, weak10:41
godbyk5 has ligatures that look nice10:42
* godbyk checks to see if the others have ligs10:42
godbyk4 doesn't seem to have ligatures10:43
godbyk2 has ligatures10:44
thorwilgodbyk: 4 has a nasty "r" and a bit to squarish letter forms for our tone10:44
godbyk1 looks okay (whether is has ligatures or just doesn't need them)10:45
thorwildown to 1, 2, 510:45
godbykyeah, the serifs on 4 are kind of flat.10:46
godbykgotta love nit-picking fonts!10:46
godbyk1 and 2 don't have small caps.10:48
godbykthe italic on 1 bugs me.10:49
godbyklooks fake10:49
godbykin fact, looking at the glyph table of the italic font for 1, *everything* has been slanted.. even glyphs that shouldn't be.10:50
thorwilso we would have to use another font, or drop 1 all together10:52
thorwilx-height in 1 is not the most beautiful, so bye10:53
godbykso we're left with 2 and 5?10:54
godbyklemme run both those through this program, see what languages they support10:54
godbykthey're both pretty good10:56
godbykso far:10:56
godbyk5 has hebrew and 1 doesn't.10:57
godbyk1 has a couple languages that I've never heard of and that we're not translating to (yet)10:57
godbykoh, wait, 5 has both those, too.10:57
godbyk5 just has some other stuff in between. sorry.10:58
godbyk5 has archaic greek letters (for our ancient greek translation, maybe), 1 doesn't.10:58
godbyk(not that I'm holding that against 1!)10:58
godbyk5 has full basic greek and 1 has fragmentary, though.  1 only covers 60%.10:59
godbyk5 has latin ligatures, and 1 doesn't.11:00
godbyk(though in its defense, I don't think 1 requires them, since the overhangs and stems are so short)11:00
godbyk5 has only 95% coverage of Pan-Latin African, whereas 1 has full coverage.11:00
godbyk(I don't think we're translating to any African languages yet.)11:01
thorwil2 really does say "book"11:01
thorwilgodbyk: so 511:01
godbyksure, sounds good to me.11:02
godbykI like 2 as a font..11:02
godbykjust not for this manual, as much.11:02
godbykas an added bonus, 5 comes with latex packages. :-)11:02
thorwilgodbyk: Biolinum appears to have the matching color, but Gillius might be a good match, too, briefly looking11:04
godbykthorwil: http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/l.pdf11:05
godbykwe can play with the Ub kerning sometime if you want.11:05
godbykI do like Biolinum, but it appears to have just been started, so it's not as complete.11:05
godbykI'm not sure if we'll run into problems with it or not.11:06
godbykI like what I see so far, though. :-)11:06
godbyklet me see what coverage it has.11:07
thorwilgodbyk: the obvious problem is that adding space to not have the serifs collide makes the pair fall apart everywhere else11:07
thorwilgodbyk: 3 would be the maximum for me and one might opt for 011:07
godbykthorwil: yeah, that is the problem.11:08
godbykthe first line (unnumbered) is unkerned.11:08
godbykeach one after that is kerned +0.01em per line11:08
godbykI think that 1 strikes an okay balance.11:09
godbyknot too separated, but not kissing like the original11:09
godbyk(though the serifs in the original aren't technically overlapping, they come as close as they can!)11:09
godbykSince I imagine Ubuntu is the only word that has this combo (that we'll use frequently enough for people to notice), I'll make an \Ubuntu command to set it nicely11:10
* thorwil -> lunch11:10
godbyk.Biolinum actually has a lot better coverage than I anticipated.11:12
godbykthorwil: Here's what the manual looks like with the new fonts: http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual-en_GB.pdf11:26
godbyk(Note that I haven't turned on any of the nice opentype features yet, so some things may look funky.)11:26
TommyBrunngodbyk: I don't think this is related to the font selection, but what's up with the horrible jaggedness of the first page? :S11:42
godbykwhat page number?11:42
TommyBrunnThe cover page11:43
TommyBrunnThe very first one.11:43
TommyBrunnWith the Lynx on.11:43
godbykoh, you mean how ugly the whole thing looks?11:44
godbykit's a PNG graphic that's been scaled up to a full page.11:44
TommyBrunngodbyk: Yes, that's what I figured. Please tell me that will be replaced with a full-scale one as the manual gets closer to release?11:46
godbykTommyBrunn: It absolutely will.11:46
godbykIt's just that, at the moment, Inkscape chokes a bit when it generates a PDF from the SVG.11:47
godbyk(Something to do with the transparency or gradients or somesuch.)11:47
TommyBrunnOh good. The general look of it is great, but the quality of it made me a bit concerned. :P11:48
godbykI hear ya.  No worries, we'll be getting to that soon, too.11:50
cjohnstondutchie: looks like all the classes are scheduled?11:52
thorwilgodbyk: so serif for body text, all headlines in sans. marginals sans, too, perhaps?11:56
godbykI was just playing with the marginals, trying out sans for them.11:56
godbykIt's 6 a.m. here; I should go to bed soon.11:57
godbykI like the old-style numbers.11:59
godbykWhen I wake up, I'll set up the \dash command, the spacing for units (like 5 GB), and small-caps for acronyms.11:59
godbykThen we can start tidying up the rest of the document format. :)12:00
TommyBrunnSomething has been kind of bothering me lately. Does the project have Canonical's permission to use their trademark and logo? Do we even need it?12:04
godbykTommyBrunn: http://www.ubuntu.com/aboutus/trademarkpolicy12:05
TommyBrunnOh, I see. That's good.12:06
thorwilgodbyk: i'm writing a mail to the list about our choices.12:12
godbykOh, about the fonts we chose?12:12
thorwilgodbyk: to trigger the complaints we will likely ignore as soon as possible ;)12:13
godbykthorwil: heh.. no doubt.  sounds like a plan!12:13
godbykI converted the prologue and installation chapters to use the \dash command and also converted some things to small caps and set up the units package for spacing (between, for example, 3 and GB).12:51
godbyklet me know what you think.12:51
godbykI'm gong to sleep now.12:51
godbyk(leave messages here or email)12:51
thorwilgodbyk: section titles like Prologue should be sans12:59
thorwil"ubuntu 10.04" with text figures is awesome13:00
thorwilmaybe we should reserve a color for links (headings couldn't have the same, then)13:03
thorwilgodbyk: smallest headline level could have no space below, if the following text has first line indent13:05
thorwilnot happy with those rectangles as bullet points. maybe just classic dashes, left aligned with body text?13:07
dutchiecjohnston: I've put times down for all of them, but they haven't all been confirmed with the speakers13:52
cjohnstondutchie: PM?14:06
dutchiecjohnston: go for it14:07
dutchiehttp://podcast.ubuntu-uk.org/2010/02/17/s03e01-the-golden-web/ # got a mention on there14:45

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