=== Randolf is now known as wolter [03:14] do any of you use preload app? [07:51] hi [07:51] do any of you use preload? I pgrep it and it doesn't appear, but I don't know if thats normal [07:51] what's preload? [07:52] nevermind, found http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preload_%28software%29 [07:54] * ubuntujenkins is going to finish totem tonight [07:54] * IlyaHaykinson hopes to finish Evolution tomorrow [07:55] IlyaHaykinson do you want me to do tomboy? Ben also added quickscan to the wiki [07:57] quickscan should not go into the default apps chapter, it should go into hardware [07:57] which already is supposed to have a section on scanning [07:58] that was what I thought, how is the hardware section going? [07:58] however, if you can do tomboy that'd be great. note the Ubuntu One sync is part of it though, which matt griffin is supposed to be working on (along with rhythmbox) [07:59] i'll check in with matt and cc you, we'll see if he's still up to writing those sections [07:59] btw, great work on your sections! i went through and made some edits to the empathy section, but overall really wonderful stuff. [07:59] I spoke to matt griffin after the last meeting and he said he had been doing some work on ubuntu one [07:59] thnaks hopefully i have reduced the changes in the other sections [08:00] well, he works at canonical on ubuntu one :) so _hopefully_ he's doing some work on it :) [08:00] hopefully, though, he's also working on the manual sections for it :) [08:00] If I see him I will ask him to add his stuff to the branch [08:00] *on irc :) [08:01] nod. [08:01] thx [08:01] you must be up very late [08:01] it's midnight... not too horrible. [08:01] cool [08:04] sent matt an email (cc'ed you) [08:16] Hey, thorwil [08:16] hi godbyk [08:16] I've been looking at fonts lately. [08:17] I've been working on making a list of the glyphs that each language requires, so we can find fonts that support each of the languages we're translating to. [08:17] It's a pain. [08:17] I think I may push that back for a bit and just work on the basic (English) design for now and come back to the other languages a bit later. [08:18] thorwil: Of the fonts you posted, do you have any favorites? [08:19] godbyk: i need to know what to use for the latin-languages, so my test is all about that. doesn't need to be the same font for other character sets, as they have different characteristics (in other words, it doesn't look so much like a single font, anyway) [08:20] godbyk: no, i need to have a closer look at my own test. what i saw immediately is that the "Ub" pair is very unfortunate in many serif fonts [08:21] it's really sad how many free/open fonts have kerning issues. although this helps to make a selection [08:23] I agree with all of the above. :) [08:23] It's surprising how many open fonts also have missing glyphs.. sometimes just one or two short to handle the language you want. [08:24] I guess we're only really limited to open fonts if we want others to be able to compile the PDF. :-P [08:24] and no bold for Gentium, only bold for Gentium (Book) Basic [08:24] * ubuntujenkins recives e-mail [08:25] It'd be nice if we had a font that had small caps, too, given the number of acronyms we have. [08:25] godbyk: there's a practical and an ideological side to that ;) [08:25] But those seem to be missing in most of the free fonts, too. [08:25] I know. :) [08:25] although i like to think the free software ideology is actually long term pragmatism :) [08:26] Since we're trying to keep the manual friendly, accessible, and, well, human, it would be nice if we had a good humanist sans for the sidenotes. [08:26] godbyk: i think 2 or 3 of the fonts in my set do have a small caps set [08:27] I think that's a good way of thinking about free software. I view it that way, too. (I like my data to be free!) [08:29] godbyk: are we going to use italic? perhaps to avoid quotes in the body text? [08:30] I prefer italic, yeah. [08:31] Most of this bold stuff is going to go away, I think. [08:31] Much of it can be replaced with quotation marks or italics and it'll look nice. [08:31] nicer, rather. [08:32] the roman and italic don't need to be the same font, as long as their proportions are relatively similar. [08:32] (I can have XeLaTeX scale the fonts so their x-heights match.) [08:32] yes, i said that, too ;) [08:33] Are we supposed to have the translated versions done by beta (March 18th), too? [08:34] i don't think so [08:36] Do you recall which of these fonts have small caps? [08:36] I'm just glancing through them at the moment looking at the kerning and character of the type. [08:37] Man, I should've fixed this whole "word space, em dash, word space" thing a long time ago. Blech. [08:37] sorry, no. fontmatrix is no help there, either [08:37] I like fontmatrix, but it's missing some features that would be really handy on this project. :-) [08:38] (like the ability to filter by supported orthographies.) [08:38] (or even supported unicode blocks.) [08:38] i have my problems getting used to the long dash without spaces, as you won't ever see that in german [08:39] Well, I would prefer to replace it with, say, \dash.. then we could define \dash on a per-language basis. [08:40] em dash for American English, en dash for British English, etc. [08:40] do that, then :) [08:41] I will at some point. [08:41] (That'll piss off the translators! :-)) [08:41] (as if typography wasn't difficult enough in a single language) [08:41] Baskervald ADF Std is missing some of the glyphs (like the u-macron. [08:41] no doubt! [08:42] I feel halfway competent enough to design this manual in English. But for other languages.. not at all. [08:42] I would love for it to look as great in each person's language as it does in the English version, but I don't have the skills/knowledge to pull that off. [08:43] i can only help with the german edition [08:44] Handily, German is one of the better languages to use LaTeX with. [08:44] Tribun ADF Med Std. looks like it's been squashed vertically. [08:45] like the x-height is too short for the width of the chars. [08:45] It's also missing the u-macron and u-breve glyphs. [08:45] Norasi is missing those glyphs, too. [08:46] Verana is missing them, too. [08:48] I know Esperanto needs the u-breve glyph. Not sure what other languages need it right off. [08:49] * thorwil makes list [08:51] heh, my font test SVGs seem to be a good way to make nautilus crash [08:52] nice. [08:52] for some reason inkscape takes 10-15 minutes to load for me. [08:52] wondering if it's because I have so many fonts installed. [08:52] yes, it's becuse of the fonts [08:53] figures. [08:53] lemme glance at the sans serif fonts you show [08:53] just gonna ramble on stream-of-consciousness-style. [08:54] Helvetian seems really open, large, and, well, boring. [08:54] whoops, that was FreeSans. [08:56] Linux Biolinum O has more character, which I like. I'll look at its kerning and language coverage in a bit. [08:57] the others on the top row all seem boring. [08:57] (maybe it's just me.) [08:58] are there any sans that have old-style figures? [08:58] *shrug* [08:59] thorwil: Are you running TeX Live 2009? [09:00] godbyk: i'm running whatever is in karmic, i guess [09:00] That's 2007. [09:01] I'm going to copy your text from the svg and put it on a LaTeX doc so we can see how things come out there, too. [09:05] hmm, Ikarius isn't really sans [09:10] thorwil: I just emailed you a .tex file you can use to test fonts with. [09:10] I just took your text from the inkscape file and dropped it into a .tex file. [09:10] cool [09:10] You just need to put the font name in the \setmainfont{} command and run it with 'xelatex'. [09:10] (not pdflatex, not latex, but xelatex.) [09:11] It'll also make smaller PDFs that can be passed around for more opinions. :-) [09:12] Yeah, Ikarius is a slab serif. [09:13] i vaguely recall putting it there because the overall character seemed more sans to me [09:14] Gillius isn't bad.. a Gill Sans clone. [09:19] thorwil: What do you think of Fontin and Fontin Sans? [09:21] don't have those [09:22] http://www.josbuivenga.demon.nl/fontin.html and http://www.josbuivenga.demon.nl/fontinsans.html [09:22] I like the sans. [09:23] Not sure about the serif yet. [09:33] i need to restart my session to get nautilus to behave again :/ [09:38] scratch the fontin stuff.. it doesn't have the chars we want, and it also misbehaving a bit. [09:41] godbyk: i guess it's Biolinum or DejaVu Sans (or one of the similars where the bold isn't that bold) for the sans [09:43] thorwil: I do like Linux Biolinum O.. it has small caps (yay!), but no italics, though. [09:47] i wonder what the difference between BGP Galho and Rioni is [09:51] the first 3 sans have a nicer "a" than DejaVu Sans [09:53] I'm looking at the Libertine fonts site now. [09:53] brb [09:55] back [10:11] godbyk: do you agree with limiting the sans choices to 1, 2, 3, 4 and 9? [10:11] lemme look [10:13] godbyk: 1, 2, 3 are all quite similar, but 1 and 2 have a nicer 1 and french quotation marks, while 3 has better kerning after "T" [10:13] yeah, 1-3 look about the same. [10:15] The French quotation marks do look pretty lame in 3. [10:15] I'm playing with the Libertine fonts at the moment: http://linuxlibertine.sourceforge.net/Libertine-EN.html#styles [10:15] (Check out a couple of the PDFs they have.) [10:20] thorwil: I'm starting to think that the Libertine fonts may be the way to go. Do you see any problems with them? [10:20] great stuff [10:23] godbyk: with Libertine, the end of the "u" is a bit strange and the "Ub" combo is bad [10:26] I don't think the foot of the "u" is bad... better than it having just a flat serif. [10:27] Let me play with the "Ub" kerning a sec. [10:30] i'm down to 1, 2, 4, 5, 8, 9, 10 for serifs [10:32] -8 [10:32] kerning on 8 is horrible, yeah. [10:33] -10 as it does look stretched [10:33] kerning of quotes and apostrophes on 9 seems off [10:34] yeah, isn't that weird?! [10:34] I like the idea behind Gentium, but as a body font is just looks too... bouncy. [10:35] 2 might be a little heavy. [10:36] that's a slight kerning issue at 9, but since it also has no Cyrillic ... bye [10:38] is there cyrillic in the sample text? [10:38] or are you looking elsewhere? [10:38] yes, 2 seems a bit heavy, but it's a great font [10:38] yeah, I guess I'm just not looking for a book font. [10:38] godbyk: upper rows have cyrillic, lower not [10:38] ah, gotcha. [10:38] what's left in the running? [10:39] 1, 2, 4, 5 [10:39] k [10:39] I keep seeing kerning issues on all of these.. [10:39] after we pick one, we might have to look into fixing the kern tables or something. [10:40] fwiw, I don't like the italic on 1. [10:40] it looks more like a computer-generated italic instead of a true italic. [10:40] (slant vs. italic) [10:41] yes, weak [10:42] 5 has ligatures that look nice [10:42] * godbyk checks to see if the others have ligs [10:43] 4 doesn't seem to have ligatures [10:44] 2 has ligatures [10:44] godbyk: 4 has a nasty "r" and a bit to squarish letter forms for our tone [10:45] 1 looks okay (whether is has ligatures or just doesn't need them) [10:45] down to 1, 2, 5 [10:46] yeah, the serifs on 4 are kind of flat. [10:46] gotta love nit-picking fonts! [10:48] 1 and 2 don't have small caps. [10:49] the italic on 1 bugs me. [10:49] looks fake [10:50] in fact, looking at the glyph table of the italic font for 1, *everything* has been slanted.. even glyphs that shouldn't be. [10:52] so we would have to use another font, or drop 1 all together [10:52] right. [10:53] x-height in 1 is not the most beautiful, so bye [10:54] so we're left with 2 and 5? [10:54] lemme run both those through this program, see what languages they support [10:56] yes [10:56] they're both pretty good [10:56] so far: [10:57] 5 has hebrew and 1 doesn't. [10:57] 1 has a couple languages that I've never heard of and that we're not translating to (yet) [10:57] oh, wait, 5 has both those, too. [10:58] 5 just has some other stuff in between. sorry. [10:58] 5 has archaic greek letters (for our ancient greek translation, maybe), 1 doesn't. [10:58] (not that I'm holding that against 1!) [10:59] 5 has full basic greek and 1 has fragmentary, though. 1 only covers 60%. [11:00] 5 has latin ligatures, and 1 doesn't. [11:00] (though in its defense, I don't think 1 requires them, since the overhangs and stems are so short) [11:00] 5 has only 95% coverage of Pan-Latin African, whereas 1 has full coverage. [11:01] (I don't think we're translating to any African languages yet.) [11:01] 2 really does say "book" [11:01] godbyk: so 5 [11:01] ? [11:02] sure, sounds good to me. [11:02] I like 2 as a font.. [11:02] just not for this manual, as much. [11:02] as an added bonus, 5 comes with latex packages. :-) [11:04] godbyk: Biolinum appears to have the matching color, but Gillius might be a good match, too, briefly looking [11:05] thorwil: http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/l.pdf [11:05] we can play with the Ub kerning sometime if you want. [11:05] I do like Biolinum, but it appears to have just been started, so it's not as complete. [11:06] I'm not sure if we'll run into problems with it or not. [11:06] I like what I see so far, though. :-) [11:07] let me see what coverage it has. [11:07] godbyk: the obvious problem is that adding space to not have the serifs collide makes the pair fall apart everywhere else [11:07] godbyk: 3 would be the maximum for me and one might opt for 0 [11:08] thorwil: yeah, that is the problem. [11:08] the first line (unnumbered) is unkerned. [11:08] each one after that is kerned +0.01em per line [11:09] I think that 1 strikes an okay balance. [11:09] not too separated, but not kissing like the original [11:09] yes [11:09] (though the serifs in the original aren't technically overlapping, they come as close as they can!) [11:10] Since I imagine Ubuntu is the only word that has this combo (that we'll use frequently enough for people to notice), I'll make an \Ubuntu command to set it nicely [11:10] heh [11:10] * thorwil -> lunch [11:12] .Biolinum actually has a lot better coverage than I anticipated. [11:26] thorwil: Here's what the manual looks like with the new fonts: http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual-en_GB.pdf [11:26] (Note that I haven't turned on any of the nice opentype features yet, so some things may look funky.) [11:42] godbyk: I don't think this is related to the font selection, but what's up with the horrible jaggedness of the first page? :S [11:42] what page number? [11:43] The cover page [11:43] The very first one. [11:43] With the Lynx on. [11:44] oh, you mean how ugly the whole thing looks? [11:44] it's a PNG graphic that's been scaled up to a full page. [11:46] godbyk: Yes, that's what I figured. Please tell me that will be replaced with a full-scale one as the manual gets closer to release? [11:46] TommyBrunn: It absolutely will. [11:47] It's just that, at the moment, Inkscape chokes a bit when it generates a PDF from the SVG. [11:47] (Something to do with the transparency or gradients or somesuch.) [11:48] Oh good. The general look of it is great, but the quality of it made me a bit concerned. :P [11:50] I hear ya. No worries, we'll be getting to that soon, too. [11:52] dutchie: looks like all the classes are scheduled? [11:56] godbyk: so serif for body text, all headlines in sans. marginals sans, too, perhaps? [11:56] Yep. [11:56] I was just playing with the marginals, trying out sans for them. [11:57] http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/main.pdf [11:57] It's 6 a.m. here; I should go to bed soon. [11:59] I like the old-style numbers. [11:59] good [11:59] When I wake up, I'll set up the \dash command, the spacing for units (like 5 GB), and small-caps for acronyms. [12:00] Then we can start tidying up the rest of the document format. :) [12:04] Something has been kind of bothering me lately. Does the project have Canonical's permission to use their trademark and logo? Do we even need it? [12:05] TommyBrunn: http://www.ubuntu.com/aboutus/trademarkpolicy [12:06] Oh, I see. That's good. [12:12] godbyk: i'm writing a mail to the list about our choices. [12:12] Oh, about the fonts we chose? [12:12] yes [12:13] gotcha [12:13] godbyk: to trigger the complaints we will likely ignore as soon as possible ;) [12:13] thorwil: heh.. no doubt. sounds like a plan! [12:50] http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/main.pdf [12:51] I converted the prologue and installation chapters to use the \dash command and also converted some things to small caps and set up the units package for spacing (between, for example, 3 and GB). [12:51] let me know what you think. [12:51] I'm gong to sleep now. [12:51] (leave messages here or email) [12:59] ok [12:59] godbyk: section titles like Prologue should be sans [13:00] "ubuntu 10.04" with text figures is awesome [13:03] maybe we should reserve a color for links (headings couldn't have the same, then) [13:05] godbyk: smallest headline level could have no space below, if the following text has first line indent [13:07] not happy with those rectangles as bullet points. maybe just classic dashes, left aligned with body text? [13:09] ------- [13:52] cjohnston: I've put times down for all of them, but they haven't all been confirmed with the speakers [14:06] dutchie: PM? [14:07] cjohnston: go for it [14:45] http://podcast.ubuntu-uk.org/2010/02/17/s03e01-the-golden-web/ # got a mention on there