[03:14] <wolter> do any of you use preload app?
[07:51] <wolter> hi
[07:51] <wolter> do any of you use preload? I pgrep it and it doesn't appear, but I don't know if thats normal
[07:51] <IlyaHaykinson> what's preload?
[07:52] <IlyaHaykinson> nevermind, found http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preload_%28software%29
[07:54]  * ubuntujenkins is going to finish totem tonight
[07:54]  * IlyaHaykinson hopes to finish Evolution tomorrow
[07:55] <ubuntujenkins> IlyaHaykinson do you want me to do tomboy? Ben also added quickscan to the wiki
[07:57] <IlyaHaykinson> quickscan should not go into the default apps chapter, it should go into hardware
[07:57] <IlyaHaykinson> which already is supposed to have a section on scanning
[07:58] <ubuntujenkins> that was what I thought, how is the hardware section going?
[07:58] <IlyaHaykinson> however, if you can do tomboy that'd be great. note the Ubuntu One sync is part of it though, which matt griffin is supposed to be working on (along with rhythmbox)
[07:59] <IlyaHaykinson> i'll check in with matt and cc you, we'll see if he's still up to writing those sections
[07:59] <IlyaHaykinson> btw, great work on your sections! i went through and made some edits to the empathy section, but overall really wonderful stuff.
[07:59] <ubuntujenkins> I spoke to matt griffin after the last meeting and he said he had been doing some work on ubuntu one
[07:59] <ubuntujenkins> thnaks hopefully i have reduced the changes in the other sections
[08:00] <IlyaHaykinson> well, he works at canonical on ubuntu one :) so _hopefully_ he's doing some work on it :)
[08:00] <IlyaHaykinson> hopefully, though, he's also working on the manual sections for it :)
[08:00] <ubuntujenkins> If I see him I will ask him to add his stuff to the branch
[08:00] <ubuntujenkins> *on irc :)
[08:01] <IlyaHaykinson> nod.
[08:01] <IlyaHaykinson> thx
[08:01] <ubuntujenkins> you must be up very late
[08:01] <IlyaHaykinson> it's midnight... not too horrible.
[08:01] <ubuntujenkins> cool
[08:04] <IlyaHaykinson> sent matt an email (cc'ed you)
[08:16] <godbyk> Hey, thorwil
[08:16] <thorwil> hi godbyk
[08:16] <godbyk> I've been looking at fonts lately.
[08:17] <godbyk> I've been working on making a list of the glyphs that each language requires, so we can find fonts that support each of the languages we're translating to.
[08:17] <godbyk> It's a pain.
[08:17] <godbyk> I think I may push that back for a bit and just work on the basic (English) design for now and come back to the other languages a bit later.
[08:18] <godbyk> thorwil: Of the fonts you posted, do you have any favorites?
[08:19] <thorwil> godbyk: i need to know what to use for the latin-languages, so my test is all about that. doesn't need to be the same font for other character sets, as they have different characteristics (in other words, it doesn't look so much like a single font, anyway)
[08:20] <thorwil> godbyk: no, i need to have a closer look at my own test. what i saw immediately is that the "Ub" pair is very unfortunate in many serif fonts
[08:21] <thorwil> it's really sad how many free/open fonts have kerning issues. although this helps to make a selection
[08:23] <godbyk> I agree with all of the above. :)
[08:23] <godbyk> It's surprising how many open fonts also have missing glyphs.. sometimes just one or two short to handle the language you want.
[08:24] <godbyk> I guess we're only really limited to open fonts if we want others to be able to compile the PDF. :-P
[08:24] <thorwil> and no bold for Gentium, only bold for Gentium (Book) Basic
[08:24]  * ubuntujenkins recives e-mail
[08:25] <godbyk> It'd be nice if we had a font that had small caps, too, given the number of acronyms we have.
[08:25] <thorwil> godbyk: there's a practical and an ideological side to that ;)
[08:25] <godbyk> But those seem to be missing in most of the free fonts, too.
[08:25] <godbyk> I know. :)
[08:25] <thorwil> although i like to think the free software ideology is actually long term pragmatism :)
[08:26] <godbyk> Since we're trying to keep the manual friendly, accessible, and, well, human, it would be nice if we had a good humanist sans for the sidenotes.
[08:26] <thorwil> godbyk: i think 2 or 3 of the fonts in my set do have a small caps set
[08:27] <godbyk> I think that's a good way of thinking about free software.  I view it that way, too.  (I like my data to be free!)
[08:29] <thorwil> godbyk: are we going to use italic? perhaps to avoid quotes in the body text?
[08:30] <godbyk> I prefer italic, yeah.
[08:31] <godbyk> Most of this bold stuff is going to go away, I think.
[08:31] <godbyk> Much of it can be replaced with quotation marks or italics and it'll look nice.
[08:31] <godbyk> nicer, rather.
[08:32] <godbyk> the roman and italic don't need to be the same font, as long as their proportions are relatively similar.
[08:32] <godbyk> (I can have XeLaTeX scale the fonts so their x-heights match.)
[08:32] <thorwil> yes, i said that, too ;)
[08:33] <godbyk> Are we supposed to have the translated versions done by beta (March 18th), too?
[08:34] <thorwil> i don't think so
[08:36] <godbyk> Do you recall which of these fonts have small caps?
[08:36] <godbyk> I'm just glancing through them at the moment looking at the kerning and character of the type.
[08:37] <godbyk> Man, I should've fixed this whole "word space, em dash, word space" thing a long time ago.  Blech.
[08:37] <thorwil> sorry, no. fontmatrix is no help there, either
[08:37] <godbyk> I like fontmatrix, but it's missing some features that would be really handy on this project. :-)
[08:38] <godbyk> (like the ability to filter by supported orthographies.)
[08:38] <godbyk> (or even supported unicode blocks.)
[08:38] <thorwil> i have my problems getting used to the long dash without spaces, as you won't ever see that in german
[08:39] <godbyk> Well, I would prefer to replace it with, say, \dash.. then we could define \dash on a per-language basis.
[08:40] <godbyk> em dash for American English, en dash for British English, etc.
[08:40] <thorwil> do that, then :)
[08:41] <godbyk> I will at some point.
[08:41] <godbyk> (That'll piss off the translators! :-))
[08:41] <thorwil> (as if typography wasn't difficult enough in a single language)
[08:41] <godbyk> Baskervald ADF Std is missing some of the glyphs (like the u-macron.
[08:41] <godbyk> no doubt!
[08:42] <godbyk> I feel halfway competent enough to design this manual in English.  But for other languages.. not at all.
[08:42] <godbyk> I would love for it to look as great in each person's language as it does in the English version, but I don't have the skills/knowledge to pull that off.
[08:43] <thorwil> i can only help with the german edition
[08:44] <godbyk> Handily, German is one of the better languages to use LaTeX with.
[08:44] <godbyk> Tribun ADF Med Std. looks like it's been squashed vertically.
[08:45] <godbyk> like the x-height is too short for the width of the chars.
[08:45] <godbyk> It's also missing the u-macron and u-breve glyphs.
[08:45] <godbyk> Norasi is missing those glyphs, too.
[08:46] <godbyk> Verana is missing them, too.
[08:48] <godbyk> I know Esperanto needs the u-breve glyph.  Not sure what other languages need it right off.
[08:49]  * thorwil makes list
[08:51] <thorwil> heh, my font test SVGs seem to be a good way to make nautilus crash
[08:52] <godbyk> nice.
[08:52] <godbyk> for some reason inkscape takes 10-15 minutes to load for me.
[08:52] <godbyk> wondering if it's because I have so many fonts installed.
[08:52] <thorwil> yes, it's becuse of the fonts
[08:53] <godbyk> figures.
[08:53] <godbyk> lemme glance at the sans serif fonts you show
[08:53] <godbyk> just gonna ramble on stream-of-consciousness-style.
[08:54] <godbyk> Helvetian seems really open, large, and, well, boring.
[08:54] <godbyk> whoops, that was FreeSans.
[08:56] <godbyk> Linux Biolinum O has more character, which I like.  I'll look at its kerning and language coverage in a bit.
[08:57] <godbyk> the others on the top row all seem boring.
[08:57] <godbyk> (maybe it's just me.)
[08:58] <godbyk> are there any sans that have old-style figures?
[08:58] <thorwil> *shrug*
[08:59] <godbyk> thorwil: Are you running TeX Live 2009?
[09:00] <thorwil> godbyk: i'm running whatever is in karmic, i guess
[09:00] <godbyk> That's 2007.
[09:01] <godbyk> I'm going to copy your text from the svg and put it on a LaTeX doc so we can see how things come out there, too.
[09:05] <thorwil> hmm, Ikarius isn't really sans
[09:10] <godbyk> thorwil: I just emailed you a .tex file you can use to test fonts with.
[09:10] <godbyk> I just took your text from the inkscape file and dropped it into a .tex file.
[09:10] <thorwil> cool
[09:10] <godbyk> You just need to put the font name in the \setmainfont{} command and run it with 'xelatex'.
[09:10] <godbyk> (not pdflatex, not latex, but xelatex.)
[09:11] <godbyk> It'll also make smaller PDFs that can be passed around for more opinions. :-)
[09:12] <godbyk> Yeah, Ikarius is a slab serif.
[09:13] <thorwil> i vaguely recall putting it there because the overall character seemed more sans to me
[09:14] <godbyk> Gillius isn't bad.. a Gill Sans clone.
[09:19] <godbyk> thorwil: What do you think of Fontin and Fontin Sans?
[09:21] <thorwil> don't have those
[09:22] <godbyk> http://www.josbuivenga.demon.nl/fontin.html and http://www.josbuivenga.demon.nl/fontinsans.html
[09:22] <godbyk> I like the sans.
[09:23] <godbyk> Not sure about the serif yet.
[09:33] <thorwil> i need to restart my session to get nautilus to behave again :/
[09:38] <godbyk> scratch the fontin stuff.. it doesn't have the chars we want, and it also misbehaving a bit.
[09:41] <thorwil> godbyk: i guess it's Biolinum or DejaVu Sans (or one of the similars where the bold isn't that bold) for the sans
[09:43] <godbyk> thorwil: I do like Linux Biolinum O.. it has small caps (yay!), but no italics, though.
[09:47] <thorwil> i wonder what the difference between BGP Galho and Rioni is
[09:51] <thorwil> the first 3 sans have a nicer "a" than DejaVu Sans
[09:53] <godbyk> I'm looking at the Libertine fonts site now.
[09:53] <godbyk> brb
[09:55] <godbyk> back
[10:11] <thorwil> godbyk: do you agree with limiting the sans choices to 1, 2, 3, 4 and 9?
[10:11] <godbyk> lemme look
[10:13] <thorwil> godbyk: 1, 2, 3 are all quite similar, but 1 and 2 have a nicer 1 and french quotation marks, while 3 has better kerning after "T"
[10:13] <godbyk> yeah, 1-3 look about the same.
[10:15] <godbyk> The French quotation marks do look pretty lame in 3.
[10:15] <godbyk> I'm playing with the Libertine fonts at the moment: http://linuxlibertine.sourceforge.net/Libertine-EN.html#styles
[10:15] <godbyk> (Check out a couple of the PDFs they have.)
[10:20] <godbyk> thorwil: I'm starting to think that the Libertine fonts may be the way to go.  Do you see any problems with them?
[10:20] <thorwil> great stuff
[10:23] <thorwil> godbyk: with Libertine, the end of the "u" is a bit strange and the "Ub" combo is bad
[10:26] <godbyk> I don't think the foot of the "u" is bad... better than it having just a flat serif.
[10:27] <godbyk> Let me play with the "Ub" kerning a sec.
[10:30] <thorwil> i'm down to 1, 2, 4, 5, 8, 9, 10 for serifs
[10:32] <thorwil> -8
[10:32] <godbyk> kerning on 8 is horrible, yeah.
[10:33] <thorwil> -10 as it does look stretched
[10:33] <godbyk> kerning of quotes and apostrophes on 9 seems off
[10:34] <godbyk> yeah, isn't that weird?!
[10:34] <godbyk> I like the idea behind Gentium, but as a body font is just looks too... bouncy.
[10:35] <godbyk> 2 might be a little heavy.
[10:36] <thorwil> that's a slight kerning issue at 9, but since it also has no Cyrillic ... bye
[10:38] <godbyk> is there cyrillic in the sample text?
[10:38] <godbyk> or are you looking elsewhere?
[10:38] <thorwil> yes, 2 seems a bit heavy, but it's a great font
[10:38] <godbyk> yeah, I guess I'm just not looking for a book font.
[10:38] <thorwil> godbyk: upper rows have cyrillic, lower not
[10:38] <godbyk> ah, gotcha.
[10:38] <godbyk> what's left in the running?
[10:39] <thorwil> 1, 2, 4, 5
[10:39] <godbyk> k
[10:39] <godbyk> I keep seeing kerning issues on all of these..
[10:39] <godbyk> after we pick one, we might have to look into fixing the kern tables or something.
[10:40] <godbyk> fwiw, I don't like the italic on 1.
[10:40] <godbyk> it looks more like a computer-generated italic instead of a true italic.
[10:40] <godbyk> (slant vs. italic)
[10:41] <thorwil> yes, weak
[10:42] <godbyk> 5 has ligatures that look nice
[10:42]  * godbyk checks to see if the others have ligs
[10:43] <godbyk> 4 doesn't seem to have ligatures
[10:44] <godbyk> 2 has ligatures
[10:44] <thorwil> godbyk: 4 has a nasty "r" and a bit to squarish letter forms for our tone
[10:45] <godbyk> 1 looks okay (whether is has ligatures or just doesn't need them)
[10:45] <thorwil> down to 1, 2, 5
[10:46] <godbyk> yeah, the serifs on 4 are kind of flat.
[10:46] <godbyk> gotta love nit-picking fonts!
[10:48] <godbyk> 1 and 2 don't have small caps.
[10:49] <godbyk> the italic on 1 bugs me.
[10:49] <godbyk> looks fake
[10:50] <godbyk> in fact, looking at the glyph table of the italic font for 1, *everything* has been slanted.. even glyphs that shouldn't be.
[10:52] <thorwil> so we would have to use another font, or drop 1 all together
[10:52] <godbyk> right.
[10:53] <thorwil> x-height in 1 is not the most beautiful, so bye
[10:54] <godbyk> so we're left with 2 and 5?
[10:54] <godbyk> lemme run both those through this program, see what languages they support
[10:56] <thorwil> yes
[10:56] <godbyk> they're both pretty good
[10:56] <godbyk> so far:
[10:57] <godbyk> 5 has hebrew and 1 doesn't.
[10:57] <godbyk> 1 has a couple languages that I've never heard of and that we're not translating to (yet)
[10:57] <godbyk> oh, wait, 5 has both those, too.
[10:58] <godbyk> 5 just has some other stuff in between. sorry.
[10:58] <godbyk> 5 has archaic greek letters (for our ancient greek translation, maybe), 1 doesn't.
[10:58] <godbyk> (not that I'm holding that against 1!)
[10:59] <godbyk> 5 has full basic greek and 1 has fragmentary, though.  1 only covers 60%.
[11:00] <godbyk> 5 has latin ligatures, and 1 doesn't.
[11:00] <godbyk> (though in its defense, I don't think 1 requires them, since the overhangs and stems are so short)
[11:00] <godbyk> 5 has only 95% coverage of Pan-Latin African, whereas 1 has full coverage.
[11:01] <godbyk> (I don't think we're translating to any African languages yet.)
[11:01] <thorwil> 2 really does say "book"
[11:01] <thorwil> godbyk: so 5
[11:01] <thorwil> ?
[11:02] <godbyk> sure, sounds good to me.
[11:02] <godbyk> I like 2 as a font..
[11:02] <godbyk> just not for this manual, as much.
[11:02] <godbyk> as an added bonus, 5 comes with latex packages. :-)
[11:04] <thorwil> godbyk: Biolinum appears to have the matching color, but Gillius might be a good match, too, briefly looking
[11:05] <godbyk> thorwil: http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/l.pdf
[11:05] <godbyk> we can play with the Ub kerning sometime if you want.
[11:05] <godbyk> I do like Biolinum, but it appears to have just been started, so it's not as complete.
[11:06] <godbyk> I'm not sure if we'll run into problems with it or not.
[11:06] <godbyk> I like what I see so far, though. :-)
[11:07] <godbyk> let me see what coverage it has.
[11:07] <thorwil> godbyk: the obvious problem is that adding space to not have the serifs collide makes the pair fall apart everywhere else
[11:07] <thorwil> godbyk: 3 would be the maximum for me and one might opt for 0
[11:08] <godbyk> thorwil: yeah, that is the problem.
[11:08] <godbyk> the first line (unnumbered) is unkerned.
[11:08] <godbyk> each one after that is kerned +0.01em per line
[11:09] <godbyk> I think that 1 strikes an okay balance.
[11:09] <godbyk> not too separated, but not kissing like the original
[11:09] <thorwil> yes
[11:09] <godbyk> (though the serifs in the original aren't technically overlapping, they come as close as they can!)
[11:10] <godbyk> Since I imagine Ubuntu is the only word that has this combo (that we'll use frequently enough for people to notice), I'll make an \Ubuntu command to set it nicely
[11:10] <thorwil> heh
[11:10]  * thorwil -> lunch
[11:12] <godbyk> .Biolinum actually has a lot better coverage than I anticipated.
[11:26] <godbyk> thorwil: Here's what the manual looks like with the new fonts: http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual-en_GB.pdf
[11:26] <godbyk> (Note that I haven't turned on any of the nice opentype features yet, so some things may look funky.)
[11:42] <TommyBrunn> godbyk: I don't think this is related to the font selection, but what's up with the horrible jaggedness of the first page? :S
[11:42] <godbyk> what page number?
[11:43] <TommyBrunn> The cover page
[11:43] <TommyBrunn> The very first one.
[11:43] <TommyBrunn> With the Lynx on.
[11:44] <godbyk> oh, you mean how ugly the whole thing looks?
[11:44] <godbyk> it's a PNG graphic that's been scaled up to a full page.
[11:46] <TommyBrunn> godbyk: Yes, that's what I figured. Please tell me that will be replaced with a full-scale one as the manual gets closer to release?
[11:46] <godbyk> TommyBrunn: It absolutely will.
[11:47] <godbyk> It's just that, at the moment, Inkscape chokes a bit when it generates a PDF from the SVG.
[11:47] <godbyk> (Something to do with the transparency or gradients or somesuch.)
[11:48] <TommyBrunn> Oh good. The general look of it is great, but the quality of it made me a bit concerned. :P
[11:50] <godbyk> I hear ya.  No worries, we'll be getting to that soon, too.
[11:52] <cjohnston> dutchie: looks like all the classes are scheduled?
[11:56] <thorwil> godbyk: so serif for body text, all headlines in sans. marginals sans, too, perhaps?
[11:56] <godbyk> Yep.
[11:56] <godbyk> I was just playing with the marginals, trying out sans for them.
[11:57] <godbyk> http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/main.pdf
[11:57] <godbyk> It's 6 a.m. here; I should go to bed soon.
[11:59] <godbyk> I like the old-style numbers.
[11:59] <thorwil> good
[11:59] <godbyk> When I wake up, I'll set up the \dash command, the spacing for units (like 5 GB), and small-caps for acronyms.
[12:00] <godbyk> Then we can start tidying up the rest of the document format. :)
[12:04] <TommyBrunn> Something has been kind of bothering me lately. Does the project have Canonical's permission to use their trademark and logo? Do we even need it?
[12:05] <godbyk> TommyBrunn: http://www.ubuntu.com/aboutus/trademarkpolicy
[12:06] <TommyBrunn> Oh, I see. That's good.
[12:12] <thorwil> godbyk: i'm writing a mail to the list about our choices.
[12:12] <godbyk> Oh, about the fonts we chose?
[12:12] <thorwil> yes
[12:13] <godbyk> gotcha
[12:13] <thorwil> godbyk: to trigger the complaints we will likely ignore as soon as possible ;)
[12:13] <godbyk> thorwil: heh.. no doubt.  sounds like a plan!
[12:50] <godbyk> http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/main.pdf
[12:51] <godbyk> I converted the prologue and installation chapters to use the \dash command and also converted some things to small caps and set up the units package for spacing (between, for example, 3 and GB).
[12:51] <godbyk> let me know what you think.
[12:51] <godbyk> I'm gong to sleep now.
[12:51] <godbyk> (leave messages here or email)
[12:59] <thorwil> ok
[12:59] <thorwil> godbyk: section titles like Prologue should be sans
[13:00] <thorwil> "ubuntu 10.04" with text figures is awesome
[13:03] <thorwil> maybe we should reserve a color for links (headings couldn't have the same, then)
[13:05] <thorwil> godbyk: smallest headline level could have no space below, if the following text has first line indent
[13:07] <thorwil> not happy with those rectangles as bullet points. maybe just classic dashes, left aligned with body text?
[13:09] <thorwil> -------
[13:52] <dutchie> cjohnston: I've put times down for all of them, but they haven't all been confirmed with the speakers
[14:06] <cjohnston> dutchie: PM?
[14:07] <dutchie> cjohnston: go for it
[14:45] <dutchie> http://podcast.ubuntu-uk.org/2010/02/17/s03e01-the-golden-web/ # got a mention on there