[00:00] <ubuntujenkins> loving the ubuntu logo bullet points they actually look good
[00:16] <godbyk> yeah, they're not too bad..
[00:16] <godbyk> we'll see.
[01:08] <cjohnston> dutchie: ping
[04:44] <humphreybc> godbyk: what's the command to make in spanish?
[05:05] <godbyk> humphreybc: make ubuntu-manual-es.pdf
[05:28] <TommyBrunn> Hey humphreybc, back from your trip?
[05:28] <humphreybc> TommyBrunn: yep sure am
[05:28] <TommyBrunn> How was it?
[05:31] <humphreybc> not too bad thanks, quite relaxing, went mountain biking/swimming etc
[05:31]  * humphreybc just bought an HTC Magic - android phone :)
[05:32] <TommyBrunn> Sweet!
[05:32]  * TommyBrunn also wants a new gadget.
[05:32] <humphreybc> yep, i'll have to sign up with vodafone and change my cell number but that should be okay
[05:32] <humphreybc> probably start with 100mb of data a month for $10
[05:32] <humphreybc> they do 1GB for $50 if I want
[05:33] <TommyBrunn> Oh shit. I have to go do the laundry. (that's why I'm up so horribly early)
[05:33] <TommyBrunn> brb
[05:33] <humphreybc> haha
[05:36] <humphreybc> dutchie: if my new android phone doesn't work well on ubuntu i'm blaming you :)
[05:41] <TommyBrunn> Back.
[05:41] <TommyBrunn> God damn it's cold. :(
[05:41] <TommyBrunn> You should treasure the fact that you live on a huge tropical island.
[05:42] <humphreybc> NZ? Ha it's not tropical!
[05:42] <humphreybc> it's very cold in winter at the bottom of NZ where I live
[05:43] <TommyBrunn> Very cold? I doubt it.
[05:43] <TommyBrunn> Right now it's -27 C here.
[05:43] <humphreybc> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooohh
[05:43] <humphreybc> wow
[05:43] <TommyBrunn> It's not very nice at all.
[05:44] <humphreybc> i can imagine
[05:44] <TommyBrunn> Oh well. Only four more months to go. [party]
[05:44] <humphreybc> so what's happening with quickshot?
[05:45] <TommyBrunn> Well, I haven't worked on it a lot, since we need to get a project plan formulated first. However, I have been thinking about it a lot, and I've pretty much got user account detection all figured out.
[05:45] <humphreybc> awesome
[05:45] <TommyBrunn> It can now switch user session without a problem.
[05:45] <humphreybc> will I get an email from your uni on monday?
[05:45] <TommyBrunn> Hopefully.
[05:45] <humphreybc> yeh i tried it out and it seemed to work quite well
[05:45] <TommyBrunn> It depends on how long it takes them to translate the corriculum.
[05:46] <humphreybc> although my "new user" settings seem to be really weird. I customized the guest account so it must take them from there
[05:46] <TommyBrunn> That seems likely, yes.
[05:46] <humphreybc> i'll do a fresh install of lucid or something one day
[05:47] <TommyBrunn> I did also read that email you sent me, and I think the guy who sent it kind of missed the point. It doesn't really matter that you can switch languages of an application independently - as we need to switch languages of everything.
[05:47] <TommyBrunn> Including menues and stuff.
[05:47] <TommyBrunn> It does however help translators. But I'm quite sure they already knew about it.
[05:48] <TommyBrunn> As for a shutter plugin; sure, it would be nice and all. But it would take a lot more time.
[05:50] <TommyBrunn> Oh yeah! I also checked out how to take screenshots, and it seems quite easy, really.
[05:51] <TommyBrunn> The tricky part will probably be the parsing of the screenshot directory tree, and the integration with bzr.
[05:52] <TommyBrunn> It you have the time, I would really like to get to work on a "schedule" for my work. For example, when's the deadline?
[05:57] <humphreybc> TommyBrunn: well if we could get it done by March 18th then that would be cool :)
[05:57] <humphreybc> but i don't know how feasible that is
[05:57] <TommyBrunn> Well, we should be able to get a crippled, bug-ridden version out by then. ;)
[05:57] <TommyBrunn> We'll list that as a goal.
[05:59] <TommyBrunn> Hmm, it's Feb 20th today, so that gives us... 26 days.
[05:59] <TommyBrunn> What are the tasks that need to be completed?
[05:59] <TommyBrunn> We need to have Quickshot detect if you're logged in as quickshot or not. That would be the closest goal.
[06:01] <TommyBrunn> Allowing bzr login and downloading of the screenshot branch would be the next thing after that.
[06:01] <humphreybc> yep
[06:02] <humphreybc> getting dependencies, language files
[06:02] <humphreybc> creating the bzr branch with empty folders
[06:02] <humphreybc> getting quickshot to recognize empty folders in the branch as screenshots that need to be taken
[06:02] <humphreybc> etc
[06:02] <TommyBrunn> Yeah, I've been thinking about that. We need some way to store what screenshots need to be taken, and information about them.
[06:02] <humphreybc> we want it to be usable by March 18th, actually fully working by April 1st
[06:03] <TommyBrunn> Alright. Sounds doable.
[06:03] <humphreybc> well we could use a mysql database, but if we could use a bzr branch or a file in the branch
[06:03] <TommyBrunn> A database would be overkill. A file in the branch would be better.
[06:03] <TommyBrunn> Though I'm not sure about the format.
[06:04] <humphreybc> martin says we can create empty files for the screenshots we need, so they "represent" what we need, then quickshot recognizes empty files as screenshots we need
[06:04] <humphreybc> when it takes the screenshot it deletes the empty file and replaces it with the image
[06:04] <TommyBrunn> Hmm. It would be easier to have one text file per screenshot. In it we could have information regarding that shot, like instructions on how to take it, etc.
[06:04] <humphreybc> yeah
[06:05] <humphreybc> we could make all the english ones and then write a script to duplicate them in the languages
[06:05] <humphreybc> but what about translating the descriptions?
[06:05] <humphreybc> we can't really do that
[06:05] <TommyBrunn> Alright. So another thing we would need to do is to figure out a way to store this information.
[06:06] <humphreybc> we'll just have to target quickshot at english screenshotters
[06:06] <TommyBrunn> I guess the descriptions will have to be in English.
[06:06] <humphreybc> well one bzr branch would be too big by the end with 2000 screenshots
[06:06] <humphreybc> maybe one branch per chapter
[06:06] <humphreybc> that would be 11 branches
[06:06] <humphreybc> or one branch per language, 40+ branches
[06:06] <TommyBrunn> Hmm... Yes, I suppose.
[06:07] <TommyBrunn> I think that one branch per language would be easier.
[06:07] <humphreybc> but the chapters are an unchanging variable, they're fixed... languages aren't. people can add new languages whenever they want
[06:07] <TommyBrunn> True.
[06:07] <humphreybc> so it would make sense to have one branch per language
[06:07] <humphreybc> can you write a script that pulls the list of languages off launchpad and creates branches for each?
[06:07] <humphreybc> save us creating 40+ by hand
[06:08] <TommyBrunn> Sure. Shouldn't take long.
[06:08] <TommyBrunn> Hopefully.
[06:08] <TommyBrunn> :$
[06:08] <humphreybc> fun times :D
[06:08] <humphreybc> i don't have much time to help you this week
[06:08] <humphreybc> but from the 1st of march i'll have time in my python paper labs
[06:09] <TommyBrunn> Don't worry about it. As long as you can help me jot down all the things that need to be done, I can start crossing them off the list myself.
[06:09] <humphreybc> hopefully, if the uni lets me do that as my project
[06:09] <humphreybc> okay cool
[06:09] <humphreybc> because i'm sucky at python, i can help design the UI, wording, icons and stuff
[06:09] <humphreybc> and i know a bit about bzr
[06:09] <humphreybc> how long is your paper for on this?
[06:10] <TommyBrunn> Very short. I just need to write 4 or 5 pages.
[06:10] <humphreybc> okay, what about time?
[06:10] <humphreybc> ie how many weeks
[06:10] <TommyBrunn> Plus about half a page that will be shown on the university's website.
[06:10] <TommyBrunn> Whenever the project is finished.
[06:10] <humphreybc> oh cool
[06:10] <TommyBrunn> There's no set deadline.
[06:10] <humphreybc> that's flexible!
[06:10] <TommyBrunn> Yup.
[06:10] <humphreybc> so howcome you're doing a project like this in first year?
[06:11] <TommyBrunn> Because I'm awesome.
[06:11] <humphreybc> haha
[06:11] <humphreybc> i'm talking to our head of department at the start of march
[06:11] <humphreybc> about ubuntu/google lunar x prize/how they can help etc
[06:11] <TommyBrunn> Alright. Sounds... A little bit scary.
[06:11] <humphreybc> it's full on
[06:12] <humphreybc> :)
[06:12] <humphreybc> you'll have to give me a few days off to play with my new android toy though :D
[06:12] <TommyBrunn> My head of department referred to the open source movement as "amateur freeware", so... It seems like kind of a lost cause to even bring it up with her.
[06:13] <humphreybc> oh sucky
[06:13] <humphreybc> our CS department loves open source
[06:14] <TommyBrunn> You know what would be rad? If you could download only a portion of a branch. Then we wouldn't have to create 40 different branches.
[06:14] <humphreybc> hrm
[06:14] <TommyBrunn> I'm not in the CS department, sadly.
[06:14] <humphreybc> oh what department?
[06:14] <humphreybc> i'll find out if it's possible to download portions of one branch
[06:14] <TommyBrunn> Eh, sociology, I guess.
[06:14] <humphreybc> really?
[06:14] <TommyBrunn> Yeah. It's a little bit odd.
[06:14] <humphreybc> what's your major?
[06:15] <TommyBrunn> We don't have majors/minors here.
[06:15] <humphreybc> okay so what's your subject?
[06:15] <humphreybc> or topic or something
[06:15] <TommyBrunn> But I'm in the System Sciences (yeah, that's really what they're calling it) program, which is pretty much just software engineering with a focus on economic systems, transaction systems, management systems, etc.
[06:16] <humphreybc> ah okay
[06:16] <humphreybc> economics?
[06:16] <humphreybc> economics is soo boring
[06:16] <TommyBrunn> No economics, thankfully.
[06:16] <humphreybc> great
[06:16] <TommyBrunn> We just design the systems.
[06:16] <humphreybc> gotcha
[06:19] <TommyBrunn> Alright. Here's the list of tasks I got for now:
[06:19] <TommyBrunn> - Get user detection working
[06:19] <TommyBrunn> - Allow Launchpad login via bzr
[06:19] <TommyBrunn> - Downloading of screenshots in an intelligent manner (no 2000 screenshots download)
[06:19] <TommyBrunn> - Write a script to auto-create screenshot branches
[06:19] <TommyBrunn> - Formulate a sensible format to use for screenshot descriptions etc.
[06:19] <TommyBrunn> - Figure out how to parse the screenshot branches
[06:19] <TommyBrunn> - Allow uploading of newly taken screenshots
[06:19] <TommyBrunn> - Deletion of quickshot user account
[06:19] <TommyBrunn> Oh f*ck. Sorry for the spam there.
[06:20] <TommyBrunn> Have I forgotten anything?
[06:20] <TommyBrunn> Oh, I should add that the UI needs to be fixed up.
[06:20] <humphreybc> yeah
[06:20] <humphreybc> i think that's about it
[06:21] <IlyaHaykinson> hm.
[06:21] <TommyBrunn> Good. Let me know if you come up with anything else.
[06:21] <IlyaHaykinson> quick question about quickshot
[06:21] <TommyBrunn> Go ahead.
[06:21] <IlyaHaykinson> will it always take full-screen screenshots? or will it allow partials?
[06:21] <IlyaHaykinson> i would imagine most our screenshots will be partials
[06:21] <TommyBrunn> Partials should be easy to fix.
[06:22] <IlyaHaykinson> manually?
[06:22] <TommyBrunn> No.
[06:22] <TommyBrunn> Or well, semi-manually.
[06:22] <TommyBrunn> I can probably automatically find and take a screenshot of the active window.
[06:22] <TommyBrunn> However, if it's an arbitrary area, then the user would at least have to somehow indicate what area that is.
[06:23] <TommyBrunn> Like gnome-screenshot does, you know?
[06:23] <IlyaHaykinson> hm... i think realistically we'll probably need to do rectangles...
[06:23] <TommyBrunn> Well yes, that's what I meant.
[06:23] <IlyaHaykinson> i.e. take a snapshot of the desktop, let the user draw the rectangle over the area to be snapshotted, then snap away
[06:24] <IlyaHaykinson> ah, gotcha
[06:24] <TommyBrunn> What dpi do the screenshots need to be?
[06:25] <IlyaHaykinson> there's conflicting info on what works best in PDFs.
[06:25] <TommyBrunn> Oh, whoop-dee-doo!
[06:25] <IlyaHaykinson> in terms of resolution and bit depth
[06:25] <TommyBrunn> Oh well, it's not terribly important at the moment.
[06:27] <TommyBrunn> Wow. It seems Gnome Planner doesn't allow you to work on weekends.
[06:27] <TommyBrunn> That's very unrealistic of it.
[06:28] <TommyBrunn> Ah, here we go. Now every day can be a working day.
[06:28] <IlyaHaykinson> ;)
[06:38] <TommyBrunn> humphreybc: are there any additional design documents for Quickshot, besides what's in the wiki?
[06:42] <TommyBrunn> And is there a color scheme available for the manual? I wanted to do my project plan in the same general style.
[06:43] <TommyBrunn> Oh. Found it
[06:43] <TommyBrunn> Kind of...
[06:48] <humphreybc> nope and nope :)
[06:54] <IlyaHaykinson> *sigh* my top panel got messed up; is there some cute trick to getting it rearranged?
[06:54] <TommyBrunn> Patience.
[06:54] <TommyBrunn> Time for me to head back out into the freezing cold. :'( brb
[07:17] <IlyaHaykinson> *sigh^2* took far too long to mess with gconf-edit to fix the panel
[07:34] <TommyBrunn> Roughly how many screenshots will the manual contain?
[07:38] <IlyaHaykinson> i heard an estimate of 50.
[07:39] <IlyaHaykinson> i suspect there will be more
[07:39] <IlyaHaykinson> though very few full-screen ones.
[08:07] <TommyBrunn> What file format do we want the screenshots in? PNG?
[08:08] <IlyaHaykinson> i think we need godbyk to help answer that -- depends on what's easiest for him to incorporate into the build process
[08:09] <IlyaHaykinson> worst case we can convert during the build process, but of course would be best if we didn't have to.
[08:09] <TommyBrunn> From what I can tell, it seems the easiest for me would be either jpeg or png.
[08:09] <IlyaHaykinson> probably should do non-lossy then
[08:09] <IlyaHaykinson> i.e. png
[08:10] <TommyBrunn> But I suppose imagemagick might be able to convert them afterwards, if that's needed.
[08:10] <IlyaHaykinson> but i suspect that godbyk will need to convert
[08:10] <TommyBrunn> I'll go with PNG for now, and we'll see what godbyk has to say later.
[08:10] <TommyBrunn> I just need to know for my project specification. That's all.
[08:11] <IlyaHaykinson> nod, makes sense
[08:22] <godbyk> I can load either, but PNG is the better format for screenshots.
[08:23] <godbyk> (JPG is better for photos.)
[08:23] <godbyk> Blocks of solid color are compressed better by PNG.
[08:26] <godbyk> TommyBrunn: Also, for what it's worth, there are currently 22 screenshots that have been flagged.
[08:26] <godbyk> In six of the chapters.
[08:26] <godbyk> (So who knows how many will be flagged in the remaining chapters?)
[08:34] <IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: i haven't flagged most of my screenshots yet.
[08:35] <IlyaHaykinson> but most of mine should be small callout-type shots
[08:36] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: It's pretty easy to flag 'em now.  Just add a line with \screenshotTODO{Description of required screenshot}.
[08:37] <godbyk> Hey, thorwil! Just for you, I changed the square bullets.  :-P
[08:37] <thorwil> heh
[08:41] <IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: I know, i have some flags for new content I was writing, just haven't gone through any of the old stuff yet.
[08:42] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: gotcha.
[08:42] <IlyaHaykinson> right now i'm working on some 48hrs stuff, then will switch back to finishing evolution, then work on openoffice (*sigh* this is a big undertaking; I think we'll have to be very brief in this first version of the manual), and then go through and edit up the old stuff, including adding screenshot markers
[08:45] <godbyk> Yeah, I need to get some 48-hours stuff written up, too
[08:46] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: What are you covering in your talk, and what do I need to cover in mine.  (i.e., where should we draw the line between LaTeX code and style?)
[08:47] <godbyk> Also, I think that as we start editing what's been written, we should build a style guide so we can keep the style uniform throughout.
[08:47] <godbyk> For instance, do you check or tick a check box?  And is it 'check box' or 'checkbox'?
[08:48] <godbyk> Since the main version is to be written in American-style English, there are some considerations we need to take into account.. like the placement of punctuation and quotation marks.
[08:48] <godbyk> (The rules are rather messy and illogical.)
[08:51] <IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/48hours/haykinson
[08:51] <IlyaHaykinson> i'll post my slides tomorrow, most likely
[08:51] <IlyaHaykinson> i'll basically concentrate on the _what_ to write, and how to phrase it, but not how to actually format it or use LaTeX at all
[08:52] <IlyaHaykinson> i agree about building a style guide as we go.
[08:52] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Cool, thanks.
[08:52] <IlyaHaykinson> however, there are a lot of references for this kind of stuff already. for example, the gnome documentation guidelines talk about the proper names for widgets
[08:52] <godbyk> That's true.
[08:53] <godbyk> We should have pointers to that in the style guide, but also give the highlights in our own guide.
[08:53] <IlyaHaykinson> http://library.gnome.org/devel/gdp-style-guide/2.20/gnome-glossary-desktop.html.en
[08:53] <IlyaHaykinson> http://library.gnome.org/devel/gdp-style-guide/2.20/gnome-glossary-user-actions.html.en
[08:53] <IlyaHaykinson> these two are the best
[08:53] <IlyaHaykinson> i use them all the time
[08:53] <IlyaHaykinson> (not always consistently)
[08:57] <IlyaHaykinson> added pointers from our style guide
[08:57] <humphreybc> dutchie: you're up early
[09:00] <TommyBrunn> Phew. Think I'm finished with my project plan now.
[09:00] <IlyaHaykinson> alright, 13 slides for 48hrs done, rest can wait for the morning
[09:00] <IlyaHaykinson> l8r folks
[09:01] <TommyBrunn> Regarding 48hrs. Will the presentations be completely over IRC or will you have some sort of video or audio?
[09:01] <IlyaHaykinson> IRC + optionally PDF slides
[09:02] <dutchie> cjohnston: pong
[09:02] <dutchie> humphreybc: it's only 9 here, not that early
[09:03] <humphreybc> TommyBrunn: I might make a ground control video demo tomorrow
[09:04] <TommyBrunn> Cool. Does lernid have support for audio/video presentations as well?
[09:04]  * humphreybc is excited to get his HTC magic
[09:04] <humphreybc> TommyBrunn: nope not at present
[09:04] <humphreybc> I'll just link to youtube :)
[09:04] <TommyBrunn> Too bad.
[09:05] <humphreybc> yeah
[09:05] <TommyBrunn> humphreybc: Do you have time to look through the project plan? Just to see that everything is correct.
[09:05] <humphreybc> sure
[09:06] <humphreybc> give me a link
[09:06] <TommyBrunn> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/176093/Quickshot.pdf
[09:07] <humphreybc> cool i'll have a look in a sec
[09:07] <TommyBrunn> Sure.
[09:07] <ubuntujenkins> by the way my branch of quickshot does user detect the quickshot user but after that the rest of the project looks way out of my range.
[09:08] <TommyBrunn> Yeah, I had a look at it yesterday.
[09:08] <TommyBrunn> I'm going to incorporate your changes into the main branch as soon as I can.
[09:08] <ubuntujenkins> cool I tried to write it as properly as I could
[09:09] <ubuntujenkins> I suggest copy and paste as the branch that is pulled is my branch and not the main one
[09:09] <TommyBrunn> humphreybc: It's been ages since I wrote any kind of paper in English, so feel free to correct any grammar or spelling mistakes you might come across.
[09:09] <humphreybc> TommyBrunn: sure thing
[09:09] <humphreybc> I can't change PDFs though
[09:09] <humphreybc> or do you mean in the application?
[09:10] <TommyBrunn> No, in the paper. Just write them down in a text document or something, and I'll fix them later.
[09:11] <humphreybc> okay
[09:11] <TommyBrunn> Now if you'll excuse me, I have a beautiful, yet awfully cranky girlfriend to wake up.
[09:11] <humphreybc> dutchie: you still around?
[09:12] <humphreybc> TommyBrunn: Oo is she a swedish blonde?
[09:15] <TommyBrunn> Haha, no. She's dark haired and she's got dreadlocks, so not quite the traditional swedish bombshell.
[09:16] <dutchie> yah
[09:16] <humphreybc> TommyBrunn: haha
[09:17] <humphreybc> dutchie: is android as slick as the iphone OS?
[09:17] <humphreybc> and have they made lots of improvements in 2.1
[09:17] <humphreybc> ?
[09:20] <dutchie> humphreybc: yes and yes
[09:21] <dutchie> afaik, mine's only 1.5
[09:21] <humphreybc> yay :)
[09:21] <humphreybc> because the iphones are very slick and fast
[09:21] <humphreybc> do the applications have consistency?
[09:21] <godbyk> consistency, not as much. :-(
[09:22] <humphreybc> bummer
[09:23] <humphreybc> anyway
[09:23] <humphreybc> TommyBrunn: nice work on the paper, it looks super slick. OpenOffice or word?
[09:24] <humphreybc> oooh you even did a Gannt chart :P
[09:24] <humphreybc> gantt*
[09:24] <humphreybc> i'm not sure of the spelling :P
[09:24] <humphreybc> I remember doing those in 6th form for web design
[09:25] <humphreybc> TommyBrunn: haven't got time to read it thoroughly but it's on my desktop and ready for me to read! (my desktop is usually free of icons entirely, so if something is there it means it's urgent :P )
[09:25] <humphreybc> chow!
[10:54] <thorwil> i still get File `siunitx.sty' not found.
[10:54] <thorwil> which package does it belong to?
[10:55] <godbyk> thorwil: It's in the TL2009 stuff.
[10:56] <godbyk> I don't know if it exists in TL2007 packages.
[10:56] <godbyk> You installed 2009 yesterday, right?
[10:56] <thorwil> yes
[10:56] <godbyk> Did you do a full install or minimal install?
[10:56] <thorwil> custom
[10:56] <godbyk> If it's not there, run 'sudo tlmgr' and you can install the siunitx package individually.
[10:57] <godbyk> (you may need to install the perl-tk library package from ubuntu)
[10:57] <godbyk> oh, and it's sudo tlmgr --gui for the graphical version.
[10:57] <godbyk> holler if you need help
[10:58]  * thorwil -> lunch, first
[10:59] <godbyk> 'kay.
[10:59] <godbyk> I'll probably be going to bed soon.
[10:59] <godbyk> I'll be back for the meeting, though.
[10:59] <godbyk> (If I don't manage to sleep through it.)
[11:05] <ubuntujenkins> there is no agenda
[11:12]  * ubuntujenkins looks at the last meeting to see what we have to discuss
[11:25] <godbyk> ubuntujenkins: humphreybc just posted to the mailing list that the meeting is canceled.
[11:25] <godbyk> He said, "No meeting today. We don't have much to discuss and i'm knackered so we'll give it a miss and take this Saturday off!"
[11:27] <ubuntujenkins> should I remove my adenda items? I got them from the previous meeting
[11:27] <ubuntujenkins> thanks for th heads up
[11:27] <godbyk> May we well leave 'em up for next time.
[11:28] <ubuntujenkins> sure they are all valid
[11:52] <thorwil> godbyk: perl-tk does not give me a tlmgr
[11:52] <godbyk> no, no.. tlmgr comes with the TeX Live 2009 stuff.
[11:53] <godbyk> if you want to run it with --gui, you'll need the perl-tk libs, though.
[11:53] <thorwil> godbyk: it's not in my path, if it exist at all
[11:54] <godbyk> when you ran the texlive install, did you have it create symlinks?
[11:54] <godbyk> if not, then it won't be in your path.
[11:54] <thorwil> nothing regarding symlinks got my attention :/
[11:54] <thorwil> but i found it
[11:55] <godbyk> thorwil: it was the last checkbox under the options menu.
[11:55] <godbyk> (you can rerun the installer and have it create the symlinks for ya.)
[11:55] <thorwil> the installer doesn't recall my settings
[11:55] <thorwil> which make sme think it's not safe to run again
[11:56] <ubuntujenkins> I ran the installer twice in one day it was fine for me, i had some how messed up the first go
[11:59] <godbyk> thorwil: you could try to tell it not to download anything and just create the symlinks.
[11:59] <godbyk> or you can create 'em manually
[11:59] <thorwil> sudo ./texlive/2009/bin/x86_64-linux/tlmgr install siunitx didn't lead to an error message, but make still complains
[12:00] <godbyk> thorwil: Actually, if you run tlmgr --gui, there's an option there to create the symlinks
[12:00] <godbyk> go to Actions > Handle Symlinks > Update symlinks.
[12:02] <thorwil> godbyk: now it works, thanks
[12:02] <godbyk> np
[12:03] <godbyk> I'm guessing that if the symlinks aren't created, it can't find the kpsewhich program which tells TeX where the packages are located.
[12:03]  * thorwil thinks the problems with finding/getting stuff are a sign that we still live in the computer stone age
[12:04]  * godbyk agrees
[12:05] <godbyk> Those are the sorts of details that I, as a user, shouldn't have to be concerned with.
[12:05] <godbyk> The system should index everything and find it for me.
[12:05] <thorwil> godbyk: "Part I \n Start here" still has serifs ;)
[12:06] <godbyk> thorwil: Yeah, I haven't modified the part stuff at all yet.
[12:06] <godbyk> Since it's on a page by itself, should we have some fancy graphics there?  (regardless of whether we do chapter icons)
[12:07] <thorwil> godbyk: the current state makes me confident that we made a good choice on the fonts
[12:07] <godbyk> thorwil: Yeah, I think they look pretty awesome.
[12:07] <godbyk> We may have to tweak some things here and there, but they're holding up pretty well so far.
[12:08] <thorwil> things like "CTRL+H" should be small caps, perhaps?
[12:08] <godbyk> (There's no bold Greek in the sans serif font, but I can work around that later.)
[12:08] <godbyk> thorwil: Maybe.  I'll give it a try sometime.
[12:08] <thorwil> also sans for shortcuts
[12:08] <godbyk> shortcuts?
[12:09] <thorwil> keyboard shortcuts like the mentioned CTRL+H
[12:10] <godbyk> Ah, gotcha.
[12:10] <thorwil> i wonder if we should use "and" instead of "+"
[12:10] <godbyk> I think the + is pretty standard nowadays.
[12:10] <thorwil> cool as long as you don't need to refer to the + key
[12:11] <godbyk> Right.
[12:11] <godbyk> I may change how we specify keystrokes at some point; we'll see how it goes.
[12:11] <thorwil> evince provides an example
[12:11] <thorwil> View -> Zoom in has Ctrl++
[12:11] <thorwil> not to be confused with C++
[12:12] <godbyk> Fun.
[12:13] <godbyk> We could use something like http://ctan.org/pkg/keystroke (see the docs).
[12:13] <godbyk> We can modify it to not look so ugly, too.
[12:13] <godbyk> Do the shortcuts stay the same across languages?
[12:14] <thorwil> just wanted to say, looks horrible
[12:14] <godbyk> yeah, it really does.
[12:14] <godbyk> but we could steal their idea with the commands and make them look however we like.
[12:15] <godbyk> maybe a grey background behind the keystrokes or something.  I dunno.
[12:15] <thorwil> godbyk: afaik shortcuts are bound to the signs, not the keys. otherwise i would have trouble with the Z in place of the Y on my german keyboard, campread to US layout
[12:15] <thorwil> compared, even
[12:17] <godbyk> Well, I mean more along the lines of: Is the shortcut for Open File set to Ctrl+O regardless of the language?  Or is it, say, Ctrl+L is some language?
[12:17] <thorwil> gets fun for signs that are on modifier-key combos in one language, but not in another
[12:17] <thorwil> godbyk: i think it's always Ctrl+O
[12:18] <thorwil> if not, our translators should inform us about that
[12:18] <godbyk> right.  I was just curious.
[12:19]  * thorwil has his system on english, being so used to it and having been very frustrated with amazingly bad translations of menu commands
[12:21] <thorwil> godbyk: switching from rectangles to CoFs for bullet points is the close to the worst thing you could do ;p
[12:22] <godbyk> thorwil: :-P  I know, I did it just for you.
[12:22] <thorwil> grmbl :)
[12:22] <godbyk> What kind of bullets would you like?
[12:22] <godbyk> Plain round bullets are so boring.
[12:22] <godbyk> And we have so many alternatives to pick from.
[12:23] <godbyk> You can use any symbol in the fonts we are using.
[12:23] <thorwil> godbyk: i like simple dashes. simple dots are fine, too. it's not their job to be exciting
[12:23] <godbyk> Or almost anything from here: http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/info/symbols/comprehensive/symbols-a4.pdf
[12:24] <godbyk> They shouldn't be exciting, but since we're using so many of them (apparently), they should convey the same character as the rest of the manual.
[12:24] <godbyk> And little black circles don't convey anything other than "I'm too lazy to find nice bullets."
[12:27] <thorwil> no, they convey awareness that the bullet poinst are not much different from a character used in the text and such should not attract more attention than they will do by their position already
[12:29] <TommyBrunn> ubuntujenkins: I got user detection working properly in trunk now.
[12:29] <TommyBrunn> And now there's a convenient way to remove the user. quickly run --remove or quickly run -r
[12:29] <TommyBrunn> It also updates itself every time you run it as the quickshot user.
[12:31] <thorwil> godbyk: Libertine has "bullet" and "trianglebullet" in General Punctuation
[12:31] <ubuntujenkins> cool I shall do a pull, I think the hardest part is going to change the system language
[12:32] <godbyk> thorwil: Let me finish typing these translation things real quick and we'll see what it looks like.
[12:33] <TommyBrunn> ubuntujenkins: for single applications it's as easy as: LANG=sv_SE.utf8 gedit
[12:33] <thorwil> godbyk: in Geometric Shapes, there's uni25C6.
[12:35] <ubuntujenkins> Yea I know about for a single application I was playing with firefox in german yesterday. Are we going to change the users resolution so that all screenshots are consistant (TommyBrunn)
[12:36] <thorwil> of course Libertine offers a Tux. would be great alternating with the CoF!!
[12:36] <TommyBrunn> Not sure. Probably not, as there's the risk that we set it to an unsupported resolution.
[12:37] <ubuntujenkins> you can get a list of supported resolutions using the xrandr command in bash. If we can search the out put of that for the resolution we want
[12:37] <thorwil> TommyBrunn: full-screen shots should all have the same resolution
[12:38] <ubuntujenkins> thorwil do you have any idea how many full-screen shots we need?
[12:38] <thorwil> TommyBrunn: for single window shots, it would suffice t control the window size (what ever the options for that might be)
[12:38] <thorwil> ubuntujenkins: no, sorry
[12:39] <thorwil> ubuntujenkins: actually, you might also get inconsistent font rendering on shots taken with varying resolution
[12:39] <TommyBrunn> thorwil: I think they will have to be resized anyway, so what we could do is take the screenshot and then use imagemagick or something to resize it.
[12:40] <TommyBrunn> As long as the aspect ratio is the same.
[12:40] <thorwil> TommyBrunn: don't even think of resizing on a not-the-same-number-of-pixels level
[12:40] <TommyBrunn> Hmm, then we have a problem.
[12:40] <thorwil> you can't do that with screenshots, because the starting resolution is so damn low
[12:41] <thorwil> so you would mess up all text and icons
[12:41] <TommyBrunn> Then what do you propose we do?
[12:41] <ubuntujenkins> I think we are going to have to launch programs to a partiular size or change the resolution
[12:41] <ubuntujenkins> of the screen
[12:41] <thorwil> TommyBrunn: run stuff in a virtual session, with always the same resolution?
[12:43] <TommyBrunn> We're already running it in a parallel session. The problem with setting it to the same resolution is that everyone might not support the same resolutions.
[12:44] <ubuntujenkins> what is the ideal resolution for us to achive? some programs look silly at low resolution
[12:44] <thorwil> anything below 1024 x 768 seems silly for desktop use, these days
[12:45] <ubuntujenkins> I agree below that buttons start appearing off screen
[12:45] <TommyBrunn> I suppose that would be a reasonable resolution. Anything beyond netbooks should support that (even netbooks should be fine).
[12:45] <thorwil> TommyBrunn: that could mean not everyone who wants to can take screenshots. would remain to be seen if it's a number that counts
[12:47] <thorwil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Documentation/Backgrounds#Screen%20Resolution%20and%20Aspect%20Ratio
[12:47] <godbyk> With the tests I did, it seemed like 800x600 was the best resolution for embedding in the document.
[12:47] <godbyk> Any higher resolution, and the text is too small to read.
[12:47] <TommyBrunn> So 800x600 is fine?
[12:47] <TommyBrunn> I thought it would be the other way around.
[12:47] <TommyBrunn> That higher resolution = better
[12:48] <ubuntujenkins> In programs like open office you would never fit the whole tool bar on a 800x600 print screen
[12:48] <TommyBrunn> True.
[12:48] <thorwil> TommyBrunn: our document is portrait, screenshots landscape. means they have to be scaled to be quite narrow
[12:49] <TommyBrunn> Yes, naturally. But if scaling is out of the question, I don't see what choice we have.
[12:49] <thorwil> TommyBrunn: here i mean scaling on a DPI, not pixel level
[12:50] <godbyk> Scaling isn't completely out of the question, it's just that scaling the larger images means that the text in the screenshot starts to become unreadable.
[12:50] <godbyk> (Also, for whatever reason, evince sucks at rendering the graphics.  They may look nice in Adobe Acrobat Reader and like crap in Evince.)
[12:51] <thorwil> we should likely use cutouts and avoid big shots
[12:51] <godbyk> TommyBrunn: You can try it out if you like.  Just edit one of the .tex files (like prologue/prologue.tex) and add a line like: \includegraphics[width=\linewidth]{mypic.png} and see how it looks.
[12:52] <godbyk> thorwil: Some bullet variations: http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/
[12:52] <TommyBrunn> It seems changing the dpi of an image is quite easy in Python.
[12:52] <TommyBrunn> What dpi would be preferable for the manual?
[12:52] <ubuntujenkins> If i set my screen to a lower resolution it stretches to fill the screen rather than one corner is that a problem thorwill
[12:53] <godbyk> ubuntujenkins: that shouldn't matter, it'll generate the same png.
[12:53] <TommyBrunn> ubuntujenkins: I don't think that will show in a screenshot
[12:53] <godbyk> afaik, pngs don't know anything about dpi.  they're just keeping track of raw pixels.
[12:54] <TommyBrunn> I'm going to go ahead and see what happens if I try.
[12:54] <thorwil> TommyBrunn: up to 300 dpi for pictures :)
[12:54] <godbyk> TommyBrunn: okay, try 300 dpi then.
[12:54] <godbyk> maybe it'll cause pango to render the fonts at 300 dpi and they'll look better in a screenshot.  I haven't any idea.
[12:55] <thorwil> TommyBrunn: with the screenshots, the question is not how many dpi, but rather: what's the max height or width?
[12:55] <thorwil> to bad we don't have vector-based UIs
[12:56] <godbyk> and a way to capture the vector data in a screenshot.
[12:56] <godbyk> also, the larger the screenshot, the bigger the pdf will be, for what it's worth.
[12:57] <ubuntujenkins> What about we make a back up of their xorg config, go in edit the xorg to the required resolution, after the change give them 30 seconds to press a button to say that resultion works after we make the change, if not its changed back to the back up
[12:57] <TommyBrunn> You don't have to edit anything.
[12:57] <TommyBrunn> You can do that with xrandr, I believe.
[12:58] <godbyk> TommyBrunn: Only if xrandr is supported.  I can't use it because I'm using twinview with an nvidia graphics card.
[12:58] <ubuntujenkins> Xrandr was my next suggestion :) I shall check it works on nvidia
[12:58] <ubuntujenkins> it doesn't :)
[12:58]  * thorwil goes for a walk
[12:59] <TommyBrunn> Bleh. This is becoming more complex than I had hoped.
[12:59] <godbyk> Heh.. nothing worth doing is easy. ;-)
[13:00] <godbyk> I'm going to get some sleep.  I'll see you guys later.
[13:00] <godbyk> thorwil: Feel free to fire off ideas for bullets at me.
[13:00] <TommyBrunn> I do however find it quite amusing that the thing I thought would be the hardest has turned out to be the easiest, and the other way around.
[13:00] <ubuntujenkins> later godbyk
[13:00] <TommyBrunn> Good night godbyk
[13:00] <godbyk> g'night.
[13:01] <ubuntujenkins> I think I shall look into changing the resolution.
[13:01] <TommyBrunn> You do that. I'm going to stick my head in the sand for a bit, watch some Stargate and eat chocolate.
[13:02] <ubuntujenkins> cool have fun, I also have some coursework to do
[13:02] <cjohnston|cell> dutchie: I need the nicks for all the instructors to add them to the calendar for the bot please
[13:02] <dutchie> cjohnston|cell: ok
[13:03] <dutchie> I'll put them up on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/48hours
[13:03] <cjohnston|cell> :-)
[13:03] <cjohnston|cell> Ty
[13:07] <dutchie> cjohnston|cell: done
[13:08] <cjohnston|cell> Ty. I'm hoping to add to the calendar today
[13:16]  * ubuntujenkins has just realised the fix for nvidia is staring me in the face :)
[13:44] <thorwil> godbyk: dots with less space (that is one "space"). or the triangles
[17:01] <cjohnston> dutchie: did you say that you have an ical with the sessions on it/
[17:01] <dutchie> cjohnston: yep
[17:02] <cjohnston> could I get the link please?
[17:02] <dutchie> http://www.google.com/calendar/ical/itnle7iae2o1usn9f4otc4ijmg@group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics
[17:05] <cjohnston> dutchie: they are now on the official calendar
[17:05] <dutchie> awesome, thanks
[17:06]  * popey pokes d0od 
[17:06] <popey> d0od: let me know when you have a moment
[17:07] <d0od> popey: i have a moment
[17:07] <popey> ahh, excellent
[17:07] <popey> pm?
[17:08] <cjohnston> its still am
[17:08] <dutchie> it's 17:08 for popey
[17:09] <dutchie> (and me)
[17:09] <cjohnston> :-P
[17:10] <cjohnston> dutchie: tbc == tbd?
[17:10] <dutchie> yeah
[17:10] <dutchie> to be confirmed
[17:10] <cjohnston> ok
[17:24] <cjohnston> dutchie: your ical and wiki page dont match
[17:27] <dutchie> cjohnston: how?
[17:27] <issyl0> Hello there!
[17:28] <ubuntujenkins> hello issyl0
[17:28] <dutchie> hi issyl0
[17:28] <issyl0> I'm wondering if this team is still active and whether I can join or not, participate in some way?
[17:28] <issyl0> Well my first question was a bit of a silly one, of course it is still active!
[17:29] <dutchie> issyl0: we're pretty active, yes
[17:29] <dutchie> fancy having a look at the french translation?
[17:31] <dutchie> cjohnston: fixed now
[17:38] <cjohnston> ty
[17:39] <cjohnston> dutchie: if you take a look at the events on the classroom ics calendar, you will see the syntax needed for the bot to process properly, if you have to make any other changes
[17:42] <issyl0> dutchie: hmm, if you want, yeah!  Or en_GB. :)
[17:42] <issyl0> Thanks
[17:45]  * issyl0 looks on the wiki
[17:47] <issyl0> I joined the launchpad team
[17:50] <dutchie> issyl0: en_GB is done :)
[17:51] <issyl0> I just noticed!  OK, I'll see what I can do with the French then :)
[17:52] <dutchie> cjohnston: ok, thanks
[18:23] <issyl0> OK, I just downloaded the bzr branches for the manual and went and corrected a few things in the installation.tex file - I've read the instructions, but having never used bzr before it's quite confusing - how do I get that back up again without messing it up? :)
[18:25] <issyl0> I tried:
[18:25] <issyl0> isabell@desktopone:~/Ubuntu Bzr Branches/ubuntu-manual/installation$ bzr push lp:ubuntu-manual
[18:25] <issyl0> bzr: ERROR: Working tree "/home/isabell/Ubuntu Bzr Branches/ubuntu-manual/" has uncommitted changes (See bzr status). Use --no-strict to force the push.
[18:27] <issyl0> Should I do bzr commit -m "reason" and then try again?
[18:27] <issyl0> :/
[18:32] <issyl0> Yay, I did it and I think it worked!
[18:32]  * issyl0 goes hunting on Launchpad
[18:34] <issyl0> How long does it usually take?
[18:36] <issyl0> https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/main - it came up, however not with my launchpad username... what did I do wrong?
[18:36] <issyl0> I did specify it!
[18:38] <issyl0> OK, maybe I didn't.  Oh no!
[18:39] <issyl0> Help, please? :)
[18:43] <issyl0> OK, I just edited some more stuff and re-commited it and re-pushed it, hopefully it should work properly now :)
[18:47] <issyl0> Argh it did it again!
[18:48]  * issyl0 is coming close to giving up, but won't be so defeatist... pleia2?
[18:50] <pleia2> issyl0: a push just updates your own branch, hang on
[18:51] <pleia2> ok, here's how the bzr workflow goes:
[18:52] <issyl0> Oh... but it's not showing in my launchpad, because it hasn't recorded that.. argh!  But I told it my lp username!
[18:52] <issyl0> OK :)
[18:52] <pleia2> you create a branch from the truck and it stores it locally
[18:52] <pleia2> then your "bzr commit" saves changes to that local copy
[18:52] <issyl0> Hmmm
[18:54] <pleia2> hm, then a bzr push *should* put it into launchpad
[18:55] <issyl0> And then you put it on Launchpad, somehow... that's what I've been failing at doing!  Also, why isn't it showing my Lp username like everyone else's revisions in the list do, why's it showing my full name and my computer's host name, which obviously comes direct from my computer, it's not getting that I've set it so that it should know my Lp username is issyl0
[18:55] <issyl0> Right?
[18:55] <pleia2> what was the first command you used to get the code?
[18:55] <pleia2> did you do a branch or a checkout?
[18:55] <issyl0> bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual
[18:55] <pleia2> ok
[18:55] <dutchie> issyl0: have you done 'bzr whoami "Joe Bloggs <joe@example.com>"?
[18:56] <issyl0> dutchie: I did that before I pushed the second thing I did up
[18:56] <issyl0> Hmm.. actually, I did it afterwards.
[18:56] <dutchie> you'd have to do it before committing, but it shouldn't stop you pushing
[18:56] <issyl0> Oh OK
[18:57] <issyl0> I'll go and find some more things to change and then recommit and push and hopefully it'll be alright then :)
[18:57] <pleia2> issyl0: also, do you have a .bazaar/authentication.conf ?
[18:57] <issyl0> pleia2: er, no...
[18:57] <issyl0> Not that I know of.
[18:58] <pleia2> I think that's one of the configuration files I had to set up to make things work propoerly
[18:58] <pleia2> mine has:
[18:58] <pleia2> [Launchpad]
[18:58] <pleia2> host = .launchpad.net
[18:58] <pleia2> scheme = ssh
[18:58] <pleia2> user = lyz
[18:59] <pleia2> I think that will make it so your revisions show up as your lp user
[18:59] <issyl0> Oh, I do have that already!
[18:59] <pleia2> ah, ok, what's in your .bazaar/bazaar.conf ?
[18:59] <issyl0> [DEFAULT]
[18:59] <issyl0> launchpad_username = issyl0
[18:59] <issyl0> email = issyl0 <isabell121@gmail.com>
[18:59] <pleia2> ok, good
[19:00] <issyl0> So it should be working now?
[19:00] <pleia2> so yeah, I think your trouble was just authentication, the changes are being pushed up but launchpad doesn't know who they're coming from
[19:00] <issyl0> Ah right :)
[19:00] <pleia2> hopefully ok now :)
[19:00] <issyl0> Thanks pleia2, dutchie!
[19:05] <issyl0> OK, pushing it back up now.  Hopefully this will work now.  Urgh I never believed one simple thing could descend into madness like that.
[19:06] <issyl0> I could get to like bazaar, though, useful tool!
[19:06] <dutchie> git's much better ;)
[19:07] <issyl0> Yaaaay!
[19:07] <issyl0> :D
[19:07] <issyl0> Hmm, doesn't it come up in my launchpad, then?
[19:09] <dutchie> issyl0: are you pushing to lp:ubuntu-manual?
[19:09] <issyl0> Yes.
[19:10] <dutchie> and it doesn't show up at code.launchpad.net/~issyl0?
[19:10] <issyl0> Nope.
[19:10] <issyl0> "There are no branches related to issyl0 in Launchpad today"
[19:10] <dutchie> is there a "Branches related to Ubuntu Manual" at the bottom?
[19:10] <issyl0> Yes...
[19:11] <dutchie> it shows up at https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/main
[19:11] <dutchie> it's because you don't own the branch yourself
[19:11] <issyl0> Oh OK
[19:11]  * issyl0 understands.
[19:11] <ubuntujenkins> TommyBrunn I think we can use http://willem.engen.nl/projects/disper/ for nvidia (I use it already) and xrandr for intel and xti. I am told that xrandr works with the open driver , for non open drivers is appears more complex. There is some work on a python-xrandr module https://launchpad.net/python-xrandr/ but I can't find how to use it with out getting the deb from launchpad. I was told to look into the subpro
[19:11] <ubuntujenkins> cess and re modules but these confuse me.
[19:12] <issyl0> So I won't get karma for it or recognition on my Lp page?  Not that karma is the centre of the world, but hey it's still nice!  I'll still keep doing it :)
[19:12] <dutchie> I think the karma will appear
[19:13] <ubuntujenkins> *open ati driver
[19:13] <dutchie> issyl0: does it show up on https://launchpad.net/~issyl0/+karma?
[19:13] <ubuntujenkins> it takes a day for karma to show
[19:15] <issyl0> ubuntujenkins: it takes a day for karma to show in the karma count, the things you earn karma for are auto-updated in that list, just your number of karmas takes a day to get updated.. from my experience :)
[19:15] <issyl0> dutchie: no
[19:16] <dutchie> ah well, the code is there, that's the important bit
[19:18] <issyl0> Yeah :D
[19:36] <issyl0> Hmm, right, I'm back; time to carry on!
[19:37] <issyl0> Bah how do I get bzr to update the branch and just refresh the files in the ubuntu-manual folder thing I had before and *not* complain or put it in another folder within that one?  Incredibly annoying if I have duplicates of duplicates!
[19:38] <issyl0> isabell@desktopone:~/Ubuntu Bzr Branches$ bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual
[19:38] <issyl0> bzr: ERROR: Target directory "ubuntu-manual" already exists.
[19:38] <dutchie> bzr pull
[19:38] <dutchie> inside the directory
[19:38] <issyl0> Ah, thanks! :D
[19:39] <issyl0> Brilliant.
[19:39] <issyl0> I can see I'm going to like this.
[19:45] <cjohnston|cell> dutchie: Ping
[19:45] <dutchie> cjohnston|cell: pong
[19:46] <cjohnston|cell> dutchie: 1300 utc tomorrow for testing the classbot + training for instructors
[19:46] <dutchie> OK, I'll post to the list
[19:46] <cjohnston|cell> In ##ubuntu-cr and ##ubuntu-cr-chat
[19:46] <dutchie> OK
[19:47] <cjohnston|cell> If you could email that would be wonderful
[19:55] <dutchie> Mm/whois cjohnston|cell
[19:55] <dutchie> bother
[19:55] <cjohnston|cell> Hmm?
[19:56] <dutchie> just wanted to check your name :)
[19:58] <cjohnston|cell> Chris Johnston
[21:24] <TommyBrunn> Do any of you have any good guides on how to get started with Latex? A friend of a friend has decided to write some thesis paper using it, but he seems to lack any kind of experience with it.
[21:24] <TommyBrunn> I figured you guys would be the experts.
[21:26] <TommyBrunn> Hey Benjamin
[21:26] <TommyBrunn> Or should I say, good morning.
[21:26] <TommyBrunn> (Time zones confuse me...)
[21:27] <dutchie> just stick with hi, it's time independent :)
[21:27] <TommyBrunn> True enough.
[21:27] <dutchie> the latex wikibook is quite good
[21:28] <TommyBrunn> It seems he would prefer a paper (you know, the thing they used to have before screens?) edition. But I suppose he could just print it out. Do you have a link for that?
[21:28] <dutchie> there is a classic latex book
[21:29] <dutchie> The LaTeX Companion is the ultimate reference iirc
[21:31] <TommyBrunn> Thank you, dutchie
[21:31] <dutchie> I think it might be quite heavyweight though
[21:31] <humphreybc> TommyBrunn: ping
[21:31] <dutchie> http://www.latex-project.org/guides/
[21:31] <TommyBrunn> ping
[21:31] <TommyBrunn> pong
[21:31] <humphreybc> i just read your quickshot paper
[21:31] <humphreybc> it's good, but a few things that I would put in:
[21:32] <humphreybc> I think you need to explain the alternative of how we would have to capture screenshots if we didn't use a program
[21:32] <humphreybc> it'll make the program sound more necessary/important
[21:32] <TommyBrunn> Hehe, alright. Anything else?
[21:32] <humphreybc> Also, I know you've linked to launchpad etc but haven't really explained what it is
[21:32] <humphreybc> and
[21:33] <humphreybc> in the user scenario - why do we need to create a new user? you need to explain why we need the default desktop
[21:33] <humphreybc> the steps look good from someone who understands how ubuntu works and what quickshot needs to do
[21:33] <TommyBrunn> Yeah, I did think about that. I had a reason for not including it in the scenario, but I can't seem to remember what it was. So it was probably not a very good reason.
[21:33] <TommyBrunn> I'll add that in there.
[21:34] <humphreybc> but for your HODs or lecturers, who probably don't know much about ubuntu, you'd need to explain that
[21:34] <humphreybc> aaand third page: "which in turn draws handles the interface, signals and events, etc."
[21:35] <humphreybc> either draws or handles :P
[21:35] <TommyBrunn> Oh. Good catch.
[21:35] <TommyBrunn> I'll get those things fixed right away
[21:35] <humphreybc> would they know what bazaar is?
[21:35] <TommyBrunn> Thanks for proof reading it for me.
[21:35] <TommyBrunn> I would certainly hope so. Or at least that they know what version control is. I'll add a short explanation
[21:36] <humphreybc> haha okay
[21:36] <humphreybc> are you in week 8 of your year already at uni?
[21:36] <TommyBrunn> No. This is my second term. I'm guessing gnome planner just starts counting the weeks from the start of the year.
[21:36] <humphreybc> oh and just a wee niggle, could you make the quickshot logo as the user avatar? :P
[21:37] <TommyBrunn> That I will do.
[21:37] <humphreybc> and you could include the quickshot logo/banner in your paper - it'll make it look more like a "real" program :D
[21:37] <humphreybc> I'm just trying to think of ways to make quickshot/UMP sound more impressive
[21:37] <humphreybc> oh yeah and the Ubuntu Manual Project's abbreviation is UMP - not UM :)
[21:39] <humphreybc> "I am sure there are other potential contributors whom I could have me assist upon request." - last page
[21:39] <humphreybc> "whom I could have assist me upon request"
[21:39] <TommyBrunn> Oops
[21:39] <humphreybc> or "whom I could request assistance from" etc
[21:39] <TommyBrunn> Alright. I'll have that fixed in no time.
[21:39] <humphreybc> also I start my python labs on the 1st march so anything you get stuck with let me know and i'll ask the lab tutors/lecturers to have a look
[21:41] <TommyBrunn> Well, earlier today we were discussing a problem which gave quite the headache (which I promptly remedied with wine and chocolate); namely dealing with resolutions
[21:41] <humphreybc> screenshot resolutions?
[21:41] <humphreybc> it's going to be a pain in the bum
[21:41] <TommyBrunn> Screen resolutions, more specifically.
[21:41] <humphreybc> right
[21:41] <TommyBrunn> All the full screen shots should be the same resolution.
[21:42] <humphreybc> well
[21:42] <IlyaHaykinson> OMG. the pizza company has an online tracking system with a web service. tells you the manager's name, delivery driver's name, what time and for how long the pizza was in the oven or on the rack getting checked.
[21:42] <IlyaHaykinson> i'm in pizza tracking heaven.
[21:42] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: we've had that in NZ for quite some time?
[21:42] <humphreybc> TommyBrunn: well we are aiming for only one or two full screen shots in the manual
[21:42] <humphreybc> which would be 40 or 80 :)
[21:42] <IlyaHaykinson> maybe they had it here too for a while, i have no idea... i'm still really thrilled though :)
[21:43] <humphreybc> so we'd just need to find two or three people with the same resolution to take them
[21:43] <humphreybc> or just one person with a lot of time....
[21:43] <humphreybc> haha
[21:43] <IlyaHaykinson> i think all screenshots should be done from the same VM.
[21:43] <humphreybc> but that means we have to download a VM for them and virtualbox install it etc
[21:43] <IlyaHaykinson> so that one person can set up the VM in a standard way, and multiple people could do snapshots
[21:44] <humphreybc> which would take a long time....
[21:44] <humphreybc> the original idea was that since the user already has ubuntu installed, we could just use what they've got already
[21:44] <IlyaHaykinson> well, otherwise we would have to download and install lucid in a VM anyways
[21:44] <IlyaHaykinson> i really don't think that any of us run completely clean installs though
[21:44] <IlyaHaykinson> we all have some customizations.
[21:44] <IlyaHaykinson> and we all have different usernames.
[21:44] <humphreybc> but a new user should be clean
[21:45] <humphreybc> in theory
[21:45] <TommyBrunn> That's why we create a new user account
[21:45] <IlyaHaykinson> which means inconsistency across screenshots
[21:45] <TommyBrunn> Those are generic
[21:45] <humphreybc> unless you've played around with the guest account like i have
[21:45] <TommyBrunn> Yes. But unless you are a compulsive tinkerer, that shouildn't be a problem.
[21:45] <humphreybc> I don't think we should force the user to download: virtualbox, lucid ISO or VM AND the bzr branch of screenshots. We're looking at about 3GB right theere
[21:45] <humphreybc> that will put a lot of people off
[21:46] <humphreybc> it's aimed at people already testing lucid
[21:46] <humphreybc> at on march 18th, the lucid beta comes out anyway. It's an LTS so the beta should be very stable.
[21:46] <IlyaHaykinson> wouldn't the application list have more things though?
[21:47] <humphreybc> that's true - but we don't have that many shots of the application menu?
[21:47] <IlyaHaykinson> well, i was suggesting that only a few people do the main screenshots work
[21:47] <IlyaHaykinson> i.e. 2-3
[21:47] <humphreybc> it would take them a long time to capture so many shots
[21:47] <humphreybc> we're talking over 2000 here
[21:47] <IlyaHaykinson> and the virtualbox export compresses to about 1.5GB
[21:47] <humphreybc> that's the point of quickshot, to enable the masses of lucid testers to be able to capture them for us
[21:47] <IlyaHaykinson> i guess.
[21:48] <IlyaHaykinson> hang on pizza here
[21:48] <humphreybc> and we can use it in the global jam
[21:48] <humphreybc> so all those people can just screenshot
[21:48] <humphreybc> :)
[21:48] <TommyBrunn> I'm going to switch over to my girlfriend's computer to work on my paper. Be back in a bit.
[21:48] <humphreybc> we just have to find a way to work around the resolution and the application menu. these aren't huge problems, it's better than forcing them to download a 1.5GB VM and a 1GB+ branch of screenshots (if we go that way)
[21:49] <humphreybc> the way I see it is that the user already has ubuntu on their computer, and our target user base is already testing lucid, so we just have to make a new user to get the default theme/icons/pointer etc and wallah
[21:50]  * humphreybc is going to start making slideshows for 48 hours now - can someone have a look at my topic breakdown and see if I've missed anything? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/48hours/humphreybc
[21:57] <issyl0> Hmm, I'm sure I had it earlier - what's the Wiki page I think from Ubuntu Manual that has really clear instructions on how to get bzr working?
[21:58] <issyl0> (That I failed to read entirely :P)
[21:59] <dutchie> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Help?
[22:00] <issyl0> Yeah.  Gosh I'm dense sometimes!  Thanks, again!
[22:02] <humphreybc> dutchie: what's the latest version of latex called that we have to have for translations? Texlive 2009?
[22:02] <humphreybc> XeLaTeX 2009?
[22:03] <dutchie> upstream TL 2009
[22:03] <humphreybc> cool
[22:03] <dutchie> though it might work with the repo one in Lucid
[22:03] <humphreybc> dutchie: could you give me a one sentence summary of what po4a does
[22:03] <humphreybc> please ;)
[22:04] <dutchie> The po4a (po for anything) project goal is to ease translations (and more interestingly, the maintenance of translations) using gettext tools on areas where they were not expected like documentation.
[22:04] <dutchie> from http://po4a.alioth.debian.org/
[22:11] <humphreybc> okay, dutchie, godbyk, IlyaHaykinson what are you email addresses?
[22:11] <IlyaHaykinson> haykinson@gmail.com
[22:11] <humphreybc> (save me looking up my gmail contacts)
[22:13] <TommyBrunn> There, I'm all done with my report now (I think)
[22:13] <TommyBrunn> Eh, not report; project plan, paper, whatever.
[22:14] <TommyBrunn> Now to add the quickshot logo as the user avatar.
[22:14] <dutchie> humphreybc: jrh@joshh.co.uk
[22:15] <TommyBrunn> humphreybc: what program did you use to create the logo?
[22:16] <humphreybc> TommyBrunn: I may have used photoshop...
[22:16] <humphreybc> :)
[22:16] <TommyBrunn> Nevermind. Doesn't matter
[22:20] <humphreybc> who do we need on this project?
[22:20] <humphreybc> authors, editors, programmers, designers etc
[22:20] <humphreybc> who else?
[22:20] <IlyaHaykinson> readers :)
[22:21] <IlyaHaykinson> btw we still have no takers for Jamin's slot?
[22:21] <humphreybc> not as yet
[22:21] <humphreybc> i don't really want to do 5 sessions
[22:21] <humphreybc> 4 is quite enough and i have to start at 4am too :S
[22:21] <IlyaHaykinson> well, technically you're doing 10, not 5
[22:22] <IlyaHaykinson> er, 9
[22:23] <humphreybc> oh yeah
[22:23] <humphreybc> i don't mean doing the actual sessions, but creating the slides takes a bit of time
[22:23] <humphreybc> i said to jamin if he could create me some slides I'll do it
[22:24] <IlyaHaykinson> yeah. i've been working on my slides for a while now.
[22:26]  * dutchie is not sure if he can be bothered with slides
[22:26] <dutchie> do I have to do them?
[22:26] <dutchie> (\usepackage{beamer} for an easy way to do slides)
[22:27] <humphreybc> you don't *have* to
[22:27] <humphreybc> but it gives people something to look at while you're typing...
[22:27] <humphreybc> you could point them to parts of the wiki instead of making slides
[22:30] <humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/48hours/humphreybc?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=intro.pdf
[22:31] <humphreybc> what does everyone think?
[22:33] <ubuntujenkins> I think the resolution problem isn't as bad as previously thought as long as we can detect, the users current resoultion and the driver in use. With the use of xrandr and disper it might work
[22:33]  * ubuntujenkins looks at slides
[22:40] <ubuntujenkins> humphreybc looks good a few minor things. You have made all links click able except the one on slide 3. you  have mentioned twice about being released every six months on slide 2 and 4.  I would may be make the text bigger as when I last used lernid the slides were shown rather small.
[22:41] <TommyBrunn> It struck me earlier today that it would be a lot easier to just have Quickshot check what locale you're using, and only present those shots to you. If you want to take screenshots in some other language, you can use the gnome language selection thingy, and that handles everything for you.
[22:41] <TommyBrunn> It would be about a gazillion times easier for us.
[22:42] <ubuntujenkins> I think that makes more sense, that way the translators could do their own languages and those of us who want to can do the others in a funny language.
[22:43] <ubuntujenkins> on the other hand it makes doing the same screenshot in all the langages very hard
[22:44] <TommyBrunn> Yes, that's the downside of it. But from what I can tell, there's no smoother way to handle changing language.
[22:44] <TommyBrunn> Every other way includes editing startup scripts and restarting the session.
[22:44] <ubuntujenkins> I know, we could do the ones that require only windows and not whole desktop.
[22:46] <TommyBrunn> I suppose. But that makes it even harder for us. Maybe that could be a feature to add in there is time.
[22:46] <TommyBrunn> *if
[22:47] <ubuntujenkins> sounds like a plan, I think we can change the resoultion but my skills don't stretch to implementing it in python
[22:48] <ubuntujenkins> brb
[22:48] <TommyBrunn> If you can implement it in bash, or at least provide me with some pseudo-code, I could probably translate it into Python.
[22:48] <dutchie> os.system(ubuntujenkins_bash)
[22:49] <dutchie> :)
[22:50] <TommyBrunn> I'm going to go to bed now. The combination of sleep deprivation and wine consumption has left me with only about a quarter of a brain.
[22:50] <ubuntujenkins> I shall have a go but I can only do the test the nvidia stuff
[22:50] <TommyBrunn> I have an ATI card in my girlfriend's computer, so I can test on that.
[22:50] <TommyBrunn> But that'll have to wait until tomorrow.
[22:50] <TommyBrunn> Good night everyone
[22:51] <ubuntujenkins> night
[22:53] <ubuntujenkins> IlyaHaykinson what were your thoughts on screen shots for the bits i wrote? I was thinking about one for account setting up in empathy. but not sure about the rest
[22:54] <IlyaHaykinson> i agree, setting up an account could use one. definitely one screenshot per main screen of each app, in general.
[22:54] <ubuntujenkins> cheers dutchie thats one of the few i understand :)
[22:55] <IlyaHaykinson> the rest probably don't need to be full window screenshots, just any little clarifying zoom-ins on particular parts if needed
[22:55] <ubuntujenkins> Ok I thought that was to many screen shots, I shall add the commands in tomorrow
[22:56] <dutchie> ubuntujenkins: few what? bits of python?
[22:56] <ubuntujenkins> dutchie: of python bit out of order but i got distracted
[22:57] <ubuntujenkins> like to say thanks to people
[22:57] <ubuntujenkins> IlyaHaykinson: is there anything else I can do to help as tomboy will be done tomorrow
[23:03] <IlyaHaykinson> hm. i think we may want to decide on splitting up the openoffice portions... i'm not moving as fast as i wanted to.
[23:03] <IlyaHaykinson> let me think about it and i'll email you later on today
[23:04] <ubuntujenkins> openoffice is a marathon and a half, I am quite happy to get as much as I can done.  I look forward to your e-mail, thanks
[23:09] <ubuntujenkins> night all
[23:59] <godbyk> humphreybc: My email is godbyk@gmail.com, if you haven't looked it up already.