| lifeless | thats in the api definition at the moment | 00:01 |
|---|---|---|
| lifeless | on +apidoc | 00:01 |
| lifeless | I don't know what it looks like in wadl | 00:01 |
| wgrant | lifeless: I mean, how do I derive 'getFooByName(name="bar")' from "foos['bar']" without defining that in the WADL? | 00:03 |
| lifeless | wgrant: its the other way around | 00:05 |
| lifeless | wgrant: you compile the wadl right? | 00:05 |
| lifeless | wgrant: hell, even if its interpreted [zomg], when you create an object 'base', you could do: | 00:06 |
| lifeless | for method_name in wadl-methods-for-base: if methodName.startswith(get): | 00:06 |
| lifeless | collectiontype = wadl.returntypeformethod(methodName) | 00:06 |
| lifeless | and so on | 00:07 |
| wgrant | I think that's well within the realms of fragile evil. | 00:07 |
| lifeless | wgrant: compilers do this all the time | 00:07 |
| wgrant | It *will* break with the methods we have exposed now. | 00:07 |
| lifeless | wgrant: I haven't looked at whether wadl is interpreted or compiled, but I'd expect compiled | 00:07 |
| lifeless | wgrant: how ? | 00:07 |
| wgrant | lifeless: Distribution.getSeries takes name_or_version, while others take just name. Other getters are getFooByName, rather than just getFoo. Still others use a shorter name than the corresponding collection. | 00:08 |
| wgrant | Making assumptions like that seems really evil, when it's easy to do it properly. | 00:09 |
| lifeless | wgrant: I have no idea how hard wadl is to change, so I can't assess difficulty there | 00:09 |
| Daviey | Hey, I really want to use quilt 3.0 in karmic PPA but getting a rejection email from Launchpad. Is there any way around this? | 00:51 |
| wgrant | Daviey: No. Karmic's dpkg doesn't quite fully support 3.0 (quilt). | 00:54 |
| Daviey | wgrant: damn, trying to think of a sane work around | 00:56 |
| lifeless | Daviey: 'do not do it' :) | 00:56 |
| wgrant | Daviey: It's trivial to convert to 1.0... | 00:59 |
| wgrant | (unless you have multiple orig tarballs) | 00:59 |
| geser | what's the best/easiest way to check if I've an anonymous or non-anonymous login to the LP API? | 01:00 |
| Daviey | i suppose that is our only option. :/ | 01:00 |
| Daviey | geser: check what api functions you are using in code, or mv your auth file :) | 01:01 |
| wgrant | geser: Check if launchpad.me returns a 401, perhaps. | 01:01 |
| geser | wgrant: looks like this seems to be the best way | 01:03 |
| geser | Daviey: I've written some wrapper code around the LP API for usage in ubuntu-dev-tools and now also added support for anonymous login and looking for a way to do isAnonymousLogin() which could be used for guarding code that needs non-anonymous login | 01:09 |
| Daviey | ah | 01:10 |
| Laibsch | Hi | 01:13 |
| Laibsch | The launchpad OOPSes are becoming pretty annoying lately. Today's oops is OOPS-1513K110 | 01:13 |
| ubottu | https://lp-oops.canonical.com/oops.py/?oopsid=1513K110 | 01:13 |
| wgrant | Laibsch: What were you doing at the time? | 01:14 |
| Laibsch | reporting a new bug against git-buildpackage | 01:14 |
| Laibsch | patch included, ready for sponsorship | 01:14 |
| Laibsch | so I feel it's slightly more important than average ;-) | 01:14 |
| Laibsch | And launchpad completely forgot about all the text I entered :-( | 01:15 |
| Laibsch | wgrant: Is there any way to recover the text I entered without hitting the page refresh button? Going back, I lose all entries. Hitting refresh, I get another oops. | 01:16 |
| beuno | hrm | 01:16 |
| beuno | NotImplementedError | 01:17 |
| wgrant | Ah, that one. | 01:17 |
| wgrant | What's the URL? | 01:17 |
| beuno | http://paste.ubuntu.com/380681/ | 01:17 |
| beuno | is the full traceback | 01:17 |
| wgrant | What was the request URL? | 01:17 |
| beuno | from https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/git-buildpackage/+filebug | 01:17 |
| wgrant | Hm. | 01:17 |
| beuno | to https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/git-buildpackage/+filebug-inline-form | 01:18 |
| Laibsch | thanks guys, for taking a look | 01:18 |
| wgrant | Well, it's probably bug #508302. | 01:18 |
| ubottu | Launchpad bug 508302 in malone "NotImplementedError OOPS when reporting a bug" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/508302 | 01:18 |
| wgrant | Laibsch: What happens if you try on edge.launchpad.net instead? | 01:19 |
| wgrant | It's meant to be fixed there. | 01:19 |
| Laibsch | I will have to start from 0 in edge, right? | 01:19 |
| wgrant | Yes, unfortunately. | 01:20 |
| Laibsch | will the sync from launchpad happen automatically? | 01:23 |
| wgrant | What do you mean? | 01:23 |
| wgrant | edge.launchpad.net uses the same database, just with newer code. | 01:23 |
| Laibsch | I'd just let the tab open and hit refresh page if all I have to do is what a couple of hours for regular LP to catch up and be updated | 01:24 |
| Laibsch | with the fix | 01:24 |
| wgrant | Production will not be updated with the fix for nearly two weeks. | 01:24 |
| wgrant | (yes, this sucks. there's a process redesign in progress that should make it a lot less slow.) | 01:28 |
| Laibsch | in times like these all this AJAX really sucks | 01:41 |
| asdasd | hi | 01:55 |
| Laibsch | wgrant: you're telling me this will take two weeks before it's fixed on the main site? | 02:06 |
| Laibsch | incredible | 02:06 |
| wgrant | Laibsch: It occurs in very few situations. | 02:09 |
| Laibsch | I see | 02:09 |
| Laibsch | that's at least some consolation | 02:09 |
| Laibsch | but I seem to magically attract them | 02:09 |
| Laibsch | I've got another one where I can't convert a bug to a question | 02:09 |
| wgrant | And the problem here appears to be that it crashed while rejecting your input. So it wouldn't have worked anyway -- it just didn't display the right error message. | 02:10 |
| keithy | hi there | 02:53 |
| keithy | I tried to register the project "squeak" but it says that it is already in use | 02:53 |
| keithy | I would like to know where | 02:53 |
| keithy | any ideas? | 02:54 |
| keithy | I found squeak-vm | 02:54 |
| keithy | in ubunto | 02:54 |
| keithy | ubuntu | 02:54 |
| wgrant | keithy: That normally means that there has been a squeak project created in the past, but it has been deactivated. | 02:56 |
| keithy | k | 02:56 |
| keithy | cant I nab it? | 02:56 |
| keithy | I might have been the culprit | 02:56 |
| wgrant | keithy: If you ask at https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad/+addquestion, an admin can either reactivate it or free up the name for you. | 02:56 |
| keithy | k done | 02:59 |
| keithy | now I wonder if anyone is awake | 02:59 |
| wgrant | Unlikely, given that it's a weekend and both the Americas and Europe are asleep. | 03:01 |
| persia | There ought be some folk still up in the Americas, but not likely acting as admins. | 03:02 |
| keithy | k | 03:04 |
| === nhandler_ is now known as nhandler | ||
| === nhandler_ is now known as nhandler | ||
| bjsnider | is there any issue with the ppa build system applying patches? | 05:19 |
| wgrant | bjsnider: It's very probably a bug in your package. | 05:20 |
| wgrant | The PPA build system just does what your package tells it to. | 05:20 |
| bjsnider | the patches apply in pbuilder but the ppa system ignores them | 05:20 |
| wgrant | Link? | 05:20 |
| bjsnider | configure-arch-stamp: $(QUILT_STAMPFN) | 05:21 |
| bjsnider | that's the rule | 05:21 |
| wgrant | We just call dpkg-buildpackage. | 05:21 |
| bjsnider | QUILT_PATCHES=debian/patches quilt --quiltrc /dev/null pop -a -R || test $? = 2 | 05:21 |
| bjsnider | No patch removed | 05:21 |
| bjsnider | that's it | 05:21 |
| wgrant | Where is the build log? | 05:21 |
| bjsnider | then it goes on | 05:21 |
| bjsnider | http://tinyurl.com/yjkzyqw | 05:22 |
| wgrant | bjsnider: That's in the clean rule. | 05:24 |
| wgrant | It's removing patches there. | 05:24 |
| bjsnider | could it have been some problem that was momentary? | 05:27 |
| wgrant | bjsnider: Do you actually call the patch target at all in debian/rules? | 05:27 |
| wgrant | It does not look like it. | 05:27 |
| bjsnider | i didn't design the rules file | 05:27 |
| bjsnider | it's mplayer's rules file | 05:27 |
| bjsnider | i don't want to go messing with it | 05:27 |
| bjsnider | quilt.make is included, quilt_stampfn is called int he configure target and unpatch is called in the clean target | 05:29 |
| bjsnider | maybe this thing is too old to work anymore or something | 05:30 |
| wgrant | bjsnider: Have you built it in a clean Karmic environment locally with both PPAs activated? | 05:32 |
| bjsnider | exactly so | 05:32 |
| wgrant | The Launchpad build system doesn't magically go around messing with your rules file, so it is probably a bug there. | 05:32 |
| bjsnider | it looks from the build record like configure-arch-stamp isn't being called at all | 05:36 |
| bjsnider | how can it do something like that and not spit out an error | 05:36 |
| wgrant | install-arch doesn't depend on it. | 05:37 |
| wgrant | So it's unsurprising that it's not called. | 05:37 |
| bjsnider | install-indep-stamp does | 05:39 |
| wgrant | bjsnider: But binary-indep is only called on one arch. | 05:40 |
| wgrant | i386. | 05:40 |
| wgrant | And indeed, the i386 build shows the patches being applied. | 05:41 |
| wgrant | This is what is known as a bug in that horror of a rules file. | 05:41 |
| bjsnider | and guess what? the patches are applied in the i386 build | 05:41 |
| bjsnider | i just pulled this rules file out of the karmic build. | 05:42 |
| bjsnider | this should be a problem witht he karmic build of mplayer | 05:42 |
| bjsnider | unless i've been screwing with it in my sleep | 05:42 |
| wgrant | It could well be. | 05:43 |
| bjsnider | so if i add configure-arch-stamp to install-arch, everything will be fine | 05:44 |
| wgrant | Probably. | 05:44 |
| wgrant | But watch for unintended side-effects. | 05:44 |
| bjsnider | but this raises another wuestion | 05:44 |
| bjsnider | why did pbuilder build this correctly on amd64? | 05:45 |
| bjsnider | it applied the patches | 05:45 |
| wgrant | pbuilder probably builds arch-indep by default wherever it runs. | 05:45 |
| wgrant | But because we build it on multiple architectures, we can only build arch-indep on one arch. | 05:46 |
| wgrant | Otherwise we'd have multiple conflicting arch-indep binaries. | 05:46 |
| persia | pbuilder does do this. | 05:49 |
| persia | One of the nice features about sbuild is that one can use (or not use) the -A flag to test both classes of build. | 05:49 |
| persia | (someone should add this feature to pbuilder) | 05:49 |
| === hersoy is now known as ersoy | ||
| geser | persia: it's already there "pbuilder build --binary-arch ..." | 11:20 |
| persia | geser: Cool! Thanks for the hint. | 11:20 |
| geser | the defaults between sbuild and pbuilder just differ: while with sbuild you have to specify that arch-indep should also be build and with pbuilder you have to specify that only arch-dep should be build | 11:23 |
| AnAnt | is there a plan to add ARM archictecture to launchpad builders ? | 12:12 |
| wgrant | AnAnt: That relies on there being a reliable and secure ARM virtualisation technology. | 12:13 |
| AnAnt | I see | 12:14 |
| AnAnt | the reason I ask is because it seems that ARM is being used in many stuff recently: netbooks, and that new Nokia N900 that got Debian on it | 12:14 |
| wgrant | It's something that a lot of people want. | 12:14 |
| wgrant | It's just not technically possible yet. | 12:15 |
| AnAnt | which gives me the impression that ARM would be as popular as i386 & amd64 | 12:15 |
| persia | AnAnt: Have you seen any good servers? I can't imagine a collection of N900s in the data centre :) | 12:15 |
| AnAnt | persia: servers ? for what ? | 12:15 |
| persia | Building the packages? | 12:15 |
| AnAnt | persia: erm, I dunno what Debian guys do | 12:15 |
| persia | They have a collection of NAS boxes, but those can't run Ubuntu (too old) | 12:16 |
| persia | also, those can't handle virtualisation (as mentioned previously) | 12:16 |
| AnAnt | what's a NAS box ? | 12:16 |
| persia | Network Attached Storage. I believe the Thecus is the model of most of the Debian buildds. | 12:17 |
| wgrant | Are there any actual implementations that use ARMv7's virt extensions? | 12:17 |
| persia | Not that I've seen, but my experience is limited to the i.MX51, and I know that other implementations are better suited for server stuff. | 12:18 |
| persia | (i.MX51 doesn't even have a drive controller available) | 12:18 |
| wgrant | Hah. | 12:18 |
| === Hamaryns|weg is now known as Hamaryns | ||
| wgrant | The lack of ARM hardware is disappointing. | 12:18 |
| AnAnt | persia: I remember that you were involved in making Ubuntu for netbooks/MIDs, right ? | 12:19 |
| persia | Well, the devices I've seen in retail (Efika MX, Netwalker) have "4G SSD" which is really just through MTD flash. | 12:19 |
| persia | AnAnt: For MIDs, yeah. | 12:19 |
| * persia is philosophically opposed to the concept of "netbook" | 12:20 | |
| persia | wgrant: Do you happen to know if Soyuz sbuild still has features not supported by Ubuntu sbuild? | 12:40 |
| wgrant | persia: It writes info to /CurrentlyBuilding and copies ddebs into ~/public_html, but that's about it. | 12:41 |
| persia | $log_dir is easy enough. I'll have to hunt about ddeb copying. | 12:43 |
| wgrant | $log_dir? | 12:44 |
| wgrant | Also, why? | 12:44 |
| persia | Oh, /CurrentlyBuilding isn't $log_dir, right. | 12:45 |
| persia | And because it'd be nice to have the same codebase so that I knew that if something worked in Ubuntu it ought work in Soyuz. | 12:46 |
| wgrant | Right, that would make sense. | 12:46 |
| wgrant | /CurrentlyBuilding has the archive purpose and component and the like. | 12:46 |
| wgrant | But we have code to write that from outside sbuild now, so it's not critical that sbuild support it. | 12:46 |
| persia | So it can be written on dispatch? | 12:47 |
| wgrant | Which means that once LP supports ddebs, stock sbuild would probably just about work. | 12:47 |
| wgrant | Right. | 12:47 |
| wgrant | We already do it for source package builds. | 12:47 |
| wgrant | lamont: Did you ever track down that old lp-buildd repository so we can find the complete Debian->Soyuz diff? | 12:48 |
| persia | The trivial way to handle ddeb copying in the meantime would be to use schroot scripts. | 12:48 |
| wgrant | Right. | 12:49 |
| wgrant | It can't be any more of a hack than it is now. | 12:49 |
| wgrant | It's just a few extra lines in sbuild to glob for and tar up ddebs, then copy them to ~/public_html/ddebs, where another external hack picks them up later... | 12:50 |
| persia | How hard would it be for Soyuz to understand them natively? | 12:51 |
| wgrant | I have most of the work done. | 12:51 |
| persia | Are you likely to complete prior to lucid being deployed? | 12:51 |
| wgrant | But, well, it breaks assumptions that a lot of code makes. | 12:51 |
| wgrant | It's unlikely. There are non-code barriers too. | 12:51 |
| persia | Ah :( | 12:51 |
| wgrant | (librarian space, removal policies, that sort of thing) | 12:52 |
| goundy | Hi | 13:13 |
| goundy | guys I messed up a launchpad-foundations bug | 13:13 |
| goundy | Actually I was just playin with the status but I didn't know I could change it... Since I've nothing to do with this project I mean I'm not even subscribed in | 13:13 |
| goundy | Could someone check it out ? https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad-foundations/+bug/240067 | 13:13 |
| goundy | thx | 13:13 |
| ubottu | Ubuntu bug 240067 in launchpad-foundations "Launchpad needs a wiki" [Low,Confirmed] | 13:13 |
| goundy | here it is | 13:14 |
| Laney | someone may wish to kill https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ghc6/6.12.1-9/+build/1512008 | 13:52 |
| Laney | it's been going for days and I uploaded a new version of the package anyway | 13:53 |
| === rmcbride__ is now known as rmcbride | ||
| persia | Laney: You may find that running emulated builds to ensure they *can* complete is a good idea :) | 14:03 |
| Laney | persia: Actually, I made a pbuilder-armel chroot and it doesn't work :( | 14:04 |
| Laney | just ends up spinning "unsupported operand" | 14:04 |
| persia | Laney: unsupported operand? Not unimplemented syscall? | 14:07 |
| Laney | maybe | 14:08 |
| Laney | let me do it again | 14:08 |
| persia | There's a few syscalls (most noticeably for me 335) that aren't implemented, but builds should succeed. | 14:10 |
| Laney | unsupported syscall 335 | 14:10 |
| persia | stderr fills with junk, but that doesn't affect the actual processing. | 14:10 |
| Laney | I didn't wait for too long | 14:10 |
| persia | Yeah, just ignore that. | 14:11 |
| persia | 276 comes up once in a while too. | 14:11 |
| persia | But I've been able to run the binaries created that way on hardware, so I don't believe it matters much. | 14:11 |
| Laney | makes the build logs huge though :( | 14:12 |
| persia | Indeed. I complained about that, but was told that it was better to have the errors than hide them. | 14:13 |
| persia | I'd rather only report the error once per session or something. | 14:13 |
| persia | But I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable to implement the syscalls, which was what was suggested to my continued complaint. | 14:13 |
| Laney | oh hey, it did finally finish! | 14:17 |
| persia | Your pbuilder, or the ghc6 build on jaboticaba? | 14:18 |
| Laney | the pbuilder update | 14:20 |
| persia | Yeah, it's just slow. My armel schroot update seems to take forever each day. | 14:20 |
| Laney | 225M log file just from doing that | 14:20 |
| persia | That's *huge* I only get 161MB building mono. | 14:21 |
| persia | Well, almost 162. | 14:21 |
| persia | But that's 5 *million* "qemu: Unsupported syscall: 335" lines. | 14:22 |
| Laney | it goes up by 1-2M every 2 seconds | 14:24 |
| * Laney is `watch'ing it | 14:24 | |
| persia | RIght. Any nifty ideas as to how to trap that? Maybe we can put a filter in the output chain, since the qemu folk don't seem to want it on input? | 14:26 |
| Laney | oh, hey | 14:27 |
| persia | Because we *know* that it's going to mostly be "Unsupported syscall: ###\n" | 14:27 |
| Laney | bug 520480 | 14:27 |
| ubottu | Launchpad bug 520480 in qemu-kvm "pselect support (qemu: Unsupported syscall: 335)" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/520480 | 14:27 |
| Laney | hm, I *do* have that version | 14:29 |
| Laney | maybe I need to rebuild the chroot? | 14:29 |
| persia | And you're still getting that message? | 14:29 |
| persia | I bet lool would be glad to try to fix it. | 14:29 |
| persia | (he being the person who told me to go implement it when I complained) | 14:30 |
| Laney | persia: yeah, it's better with a new chroot | 14:48 |
| persia | Laney: So it needs a complete new chroot, rather than just getting updated with the new version? | 14:49 |
| Laney | seems to be so | 14:49 |
| * persia suspects copying /usr/bin/qemu-arm-static might work, and tries that to see if a new chroot can be avoided | 14:49 | |
| === wers is now known as wers|brb | ||
| Laney | however, qemu doesn't implement a syscall that it seems ghc requires | 14:50 |
| Laney | qemu: Unsupported syscall: 257 | 14:50 |
| Laney | ghc: timer_create: Function not implemented | 14:50 |
| persia | Hmm. Is it supported on the buildds? | 14:51 |
| Laney | must be, else the build would have died in configure | 14:51 |
| persia | remap_file_pages | 14:52 |
| persia | Hrm. It's at least implemented for neo1973 in qemu. | 14:54 |
| === wers|brb is now known as wers | ||
| nhandler | What needs to be done in order to be able to set one project as a sub project of another ? | 15:09 |
| persia | nhandler: Create multiple projects, ask a question to have one of them be a superproject. | 15:13 |
| nhandler | persia: Thanks. I wasn't sure if the question was necessary (as I noticed a new subproject box under the edit details page) | 15:14 |
| persia | Oh, it might have changed. My information is probably a year old or more. | 15:15 |
| lool | Laney: That particular syscall (335) has actually been implemented now | 15:29 |
| Laney | lool: yes, I saw ;) | 15:29 |
| lool | Laney: Use the lucid up-to-date qemu-arm, and you wont get it | 15:29 |
| lool | Laney: Ok; any other issues with your pbuilder-armel? | 15:29 |
| Laney | lool: yes, unsupported 257 | 15:30 |
| Laney | fails the build unfortunately | 15:30 |
| lool | Laney: Ok; it might be possible to implement it in qemu-arm, but it looks complex since there's a callback mechanism in this sycall | 15:33 |
| lool | Laney: It seems quite harder than 335 TBH | 15:33 |
| lool | Laney: I would suggest you use qemubuilder instead | 15:34 |
| lool | That runs a real vm, so should work | 15:34 |
| flower | I've download a project with bzr, how do I update the project? | 15:51 |
| micahg | flower: https://help.launchpad.net/Code/QuickStart | 15:55 |
| flower | $ bzr update | 15:58 |
| Laney | lool: will try, thanks | 15:58 |
| lamont | wgrant: yeah - I have it somewhere, should upload | 16:32 |
| === qense_ is now known as qense | ||
| issyl0 | Hi there. How long does it usually take to be approved for the launchpad-doc team? I joined/emailed yesterday. I know I'm probably a little impatient. :) | 17:31 |
| beuno | issyl0, usually a few working days :) | 17:41 |
| qense | It is Sunday now. :) Not many people are working. | 17:42 |
| issyl0 | beuno: thanks :) | 17:48 |
| issyl0 | qense: that's true :) | 17:48 |
| SiNiESTrO | hi guys | 19:14 |
| SiNiESTrO | I have a trouble... I'm trying to create a project group buy I don't know how | 19:16 |
| mwhudson | SiNiESTrO: you have to make a request at answers.launchpad.net/launchpad | 19:16 |
| SiNiESTrO | Is it possible or I need to contact with a launchpad admin? | 19:16 |
| SiNiESTrO | ok | 19:16 |
| SiNiESTrO | you're fast | 19:16 |
| SiNiESTrO | :P | 19:16 |
| SiNiESTrO | very thanks | 19:17 |
| mwhudson | np :-) | 19:18 |
| davidstrauss | How can I get this fixed? http://launchpadlibrarian.net/39487013/hiphop-php-trunk-log.txt | 20:15 |
| thumper | davidstrauss: right now you can't | 20:44 |
| thumper | davidstrauss: that is dependant on the nested trees feature in bzr which isn't done | 20:45 |
| thumper | davidstrauss: one way is to go into #bzr and complain about the lack of nested trees :) | 20:45 |
| benoitc | hi | 21:25 |
| benoitc | how long a package appear on ppa after upload ? | 21:25 |
| wgrant | benoitc: You'll receive an email within five minutes, unless you haven't signed the package or there is something catastrophically wrong with it. | 21:27 |
| benoitc | wgrant: ok | 21:28 |
| keithy | any sysops about, I asked about using the name squeak as a project name, apparently it is already taken | 21:59 |
| mwhudson | keithy: the existing squeak project is disabled because the license is non-free | 22:05 |
| keithy | this isnt for squeak itself | 22:06 |
| keithy | this is for code on top of squeak | 22:06 |
| keithy | that is MIT | 22:06 |
| mwhudson | keithy: then i don't think you should use the squeak name? | 22:06 |
| keithy | how mean is that | 22:06 |
| mwhudson | i think that would be fairly confusing | 22:06 |
| keithy | anyhow there are versions of squeakwithout the licence issue | 22:06 |
| keithy | and the licence is free | 22:06 |
| === wgrant_ is now known as wgrant | ||
| mwhudson | ah, so i see, that's interesting | 22:07 |
| keithy | just defined before oss really got started | 22:07 |
| wgrant | "free" by which definition? | 22:07 |
| mwhudson | yeah | 22:07 |
| keithy | by whatever definition you want | 22:08 |
| keithy | I think you could give squeak a break | 22:08 |
| mwhudson | the official license on "http://squeak.org/SqueakLicense/" doesn't look gpl compatible | 22:08 |
| keithy | there was not mit licence back in 1996 | 22:08 |
| mwhudson | because of the choice of law thing, if nothing else | 22:08 |
| keithy | anyhow | 22:08 |
| keithy | lets put it this way | 22:09 |
| mwhudson | keithy: sure there was | 22:09 |
| mwhudson | 96 isn't that long ago :-) | 22:09 |
| keithy | this repo is to develop stuff FOR the licence frree version | 22:09 |
| keithy | version 4.0 | 22:09 |
| keithy | you are refering to the licence for <3.x | 22:09 |
| keithy | so you allow squeak-vm | 22:10 |
| keithy | and all users of squeak use it as if it was under a free licence because the Squeak_L was a pioneering free licence | 22:11 |
| mwhudson | keithy: hang on, let's take a step back | 22:11 |
| keithy | no I fed up with anal approcah | 22:11 |
| keithy | all I wanted as a project area to put code for | 22:11 |
| mwhudson | sure | 22:11 |
| keithy | taking code out of squeak | 22:11 |
| mwhudson | why use the name 'squeak' if it's not sqeak? | 22:12 |
| thumper | keithy: what are you trying to do exactly? | 22:12 |
| keithy | Ok... take an example | 22:12 |
| keithy | I have a smalltalk image, called cuis | 22:12 |
| keithy | it is licence free before you ask | 22:12 |
| keithy | in order to develop with cuis | 22:13 |
| keithy | I write some code which spits out the source of the bit I want to develop | 22:13 |
| keithy | then I write some code which installs the spat out code | 22:13 |
| keithy | so I develop for cuis using a cycle | 22:13 |
| keithy | export -> scm -> checkout -> import | 22:13 |
| keithy | so I can develop in cuis | 22:14 |
| keithy | without ever needing to check in the actual cuis image | 22:14 |
| keithy | all I need to do is refer to the starting point | 22:14 |
| lifeless | hi keithy | 22:14 |
| keithy | hi | 22:14 |
| keithy | so I can develop for squeak | 22:15 |
| keithy | without ever checking squeak into the squeak project | 22:15 |
| lifeless | so the launchpad project is 'inactive' | 22:15 |
| keithy | no idea | 22:15 |
| keithy | I am just being told I cant use the name | 22:15 |
| lifeless | I'm telling you :) | 22:15 |
| lifeless | bear with me | 22:15 |
| lifeless | need to check a few things off | 22:15 |
| lifeless | where is the new license - got a url or something ? | 22:16 |
| keithy | its not relevant | 22:16 |
| lifeless | keithy: I understand its not relevant for you. | 22:16 |
| keithy | I tick the MIT box | 22:16 |
| keithy | because the code managed in there is MIT code | 22:16 |
| lifeless | however, once a project is marked 'inactive' on LP, we have a checklist. | 22:17 |
| lifeless | keithy: and if you want to use launchpad - thats great - I need to go through it; you can help me with this :) | 22:17 |
| keithy | no.. sorry | 22:17 |
| keithy | if the squeak guys want to use my process to develop they can do it | 22:18 |
| lifeless | keithy: uh, this isn't anything to do with the squeak upstream per se. | 22:18 |
| lifeless | keithy: lets take a step up. I understand that you want to use launchpad to do some stuff right? | 22:19 |
| keithy | it is about ripping code out of the upstream to use somewhere else | 22:19 |
| lifeless | keithy: what launchpad services do you want to use - code hosting? bugs? translations? | 22:19 |
| keithy | so you add stff to the upstream which defines projects , packages and slices | 22:19 |
| keithy | code hosting | 22:19 |
| lifeless | ok. | 22:19 |
| lifeless | to use code hosting you have two choices for open source projects: you can use the 'junk code' facility, where you put stuff in ~keithy/+junk/NAME. Or you can get a 'project' allocated where many people can put their own branches. e.g. at ~keithy/PROJECT/BRANCHNAME | 22:20 |
| keithy | I dont put any input into "squeak"any more" | 22:20 |
| keithy | we have a group smalltalkers | 22:21 |
| lifeless | sounds like you want to use a project then. | 22:21 |
| keithy | with projects cuis | 22:21 |
| keithy | and pharo | 22:21 |
| keithy | and squeak | 22:21 |
| lifeless | or maybe several projects. | 22:21 |
| keithy | where we have a new process for applying bzr to scm code (NEW) code | 22:21 |
| lifeless | thats cool. | 22:21 |
| lifeless | so, what do you need me to do for you ? | 22:21 |
| keithy | but I dont do anything to work on squeak | 22:22 |
| keithy | as the ex-release team manager | 22:22 |
| keithy | but I do want to rip off what they have done | 22:22 |
| keithy | and put the code in an accessible place for cherry picking | 22:23 |
| lifeless | ok | 22:23 |
| lifeless | I'm still not clear what is at issue here. What are you trying to do that isn't working. | 22:23 |
| thumper | keithy: does their code have a licence text in it? | 22:24 |
| keithy | create the project squeak | 22:24 |
| thumper | keithy: that may provide the information we need to activate the squeak project | 22:24 |
| keithy | the licence situation is that for old images | 22:24 |
| keithy | some method do exist which they have not found the original authors | 22:24 |
| keithy | so these have been rewritten and are available as a delta | 22:25 |
| keithy | sorry to waste your time | 22:25 |
| thumper | keithy: if you just want the code in an accessible place, you can put it in a +junk branch | 22:26 |
| keithy | nice name | 22:26 |
| thumper | keithy: there is history behind the name | 22:26 |
| thumper | keithy: it is a branch without a project | 22:26 |
| keithy | No its just I am not going to put any more emotional effort into fighting squeaks corner | 22:26 |
| thumper | ok | 22:26 |
| keithy | squeak is the logical name for the project | 22:27 |
| keithy | for people to use to work on MIT apache2 code on squeak platform | 22:27 |
| lifeless | keithy: ok, to use the squeak name, I need to go through this checklist. | 22:27 |
| keithy | yeah but that is their problem not mine | 22:27 |
| lifeless | keithy: its pretty simple, and I'm aware of the changes that have happened in the community | 22:28 |
| lifeless | keithy: I'm not asking you to answer for the original 'squeak' | 22:28 |
| lifeless | but if you want to have something on launchpad called squeak, we need to see the licence of the code you're uploading. | 22:28 |
| lifeless | plus we need to make an assessment of the confusion because of your project and the original sharing a name, | 22:28 |
| lifeless | which is non-trivial :) | 22:29 |
| keithy | and whats wrong with squeakL anyway | 22:30 |
| keithy | nope this petty splitting hairs that has hindered squeak for so long deserves to be treated with contempt | 22:31 |
| keithy | honestly forcing the squeak community to chase up the families of dead people for the sake of a licence that proteced a font | 22:31 |
| lifeless | keithy: thats neither here nor there. Point me at a URL (could be a bzr branch) with your licence in it. | 22:32 |
| keithy | my linces - MIT | 22:32 |
| keithy | squeak licence Apache2 | 22:32 |
| lifeless | yes. Where can I see a url or code branch with your licence grant in it. | 22:33 |
| keithy | I haddnt got that far yet | 22:33 |
| keithy | I got nowhere to put it | 22:34 |
| keithy | in the structure | 22:34 |
| keithy | since the source is exported from the image | 22:34 |
| keithy | the image doesnt contain the licence stuf afaik | 22:34 |
| keithy | so its difficult to export it from the image if it isnt ther | 22:35 |
| keithy | the base image has it | 22:36 |
| keithy | lp:~smalltalkers/cuis/base | 22:36 |
| keithy | but even so if I wanted to upload an image an old squeak image in order to rip the code out of it and cherry pick from it | 22:37 |
| keithy | launchpad wouldnt let me do it | 22:37 |
| lifeless | not as an open source project; we do provide proprietary code hosting at pretty cheap rates | 22:38 |
| lifeless | https://answers.edge.launchpad.net/launchpad/+question/40633 | 22:38 |
| lifeless | since that question was asked we've added private branches, but I don't think you're wanting those anyway | 22:39 |
| lifeless | also I don't know if the price is current. thumper ^ | 22:39 |
| keithy | I wanted to go back and cherry pick the code from the 3.3 release that was abandoned | 22:39 |
| thumper | lifeless: I'm sure it's one the wiki somewhere | 22:39 |
| keithy | and the author died | 22:40 |
| keithy | but it is an oss project | 22:40 |
| keithy | and I am this close to leaving launchpad on principle after this convo | 22:40 |
| keithy | squeak has always been an oss project | 22:40 |
| thumper | keithy: As applied to software, this is not a free software license because it requires all users in whatever country to obey US export control laws. As applied to fonts, it also does not permit modification. | 22:41 |
| lifeless | keithy: squeak for a long time had a non-free license; thats a fact. | 22:41 |
| thumper | keithy: that is what has been written w.r.t to the licence | 22:41 |
| keithy | it was oss | 22:41 |
| keithy | it was free | 22:41 |
| keithy | the users treated it as free | 22:41 |
| keithy | and I want to use launchpad to develop oss softward cherriyn picking form an old version | 22:42 |
| lifeless | keithy: the definition we use for open source is 'is the license on http://opensource.org/licenses' | 22:42 |
| keithy | well change it | 22:42 |
| lifeless | keithy: I think the definition we have is pretty good actually. | 22:42 |
| thumper | keithy: give me a minute | 22:42 |
| keithy | artificially blocking people who are doing oss from using your stuff is not nice | 22:43 |
| lifeless | keithy: I'm here trying to *unblock* you. | 22:43 |
| keithy | yes | 22:44 |
| keithy | but I resent this attitude that has been leveled at squeak for no good reason | 22:44 |
| thumper | keithy: I'm going to enable it for now | 22:44 |
| thumper | keithy: and take this conversation to the appropriate people | 22:44 |
| thumper | keithy: who are not on line at the moment | 22:45 |
| keithy | yeah but I cant use it without the oss thought police breathing down my neck at some point | 22:45 |
| thumper | keithy: that's why I'll take it to the appropriate people so they don't breathe down your neck | 22:45 |
| thumper | keithy: we do really try to be responsive to the open source community | 22:45 |
| keithy | ok | 22:45 |
| thumper | keithy: but there are legal issues that we unfortunately have to deal with | 22:46 |
| thumper | keithy: just because something has been treated as free, doesn't make it so | 22:46 |
| keithy | we have the same legal issuers | 22:46 |
| keithy | and it has never been a problem | 22:46 |
| keithy | apple released their code, so that disney could freely use it | 22:46 |
| keithy | I was there at the original announcement | 22:47 |
| thumper | https://edge.launchpad.net/squeak is now active | 22:47 |
| keithy | ok | 22:47 |
| keithy | ty | 22:47 |
| keithy | sorry | 22:47 |
| thumper | don't be sorry | 22:47 |
| thumper | sometimes these conversations are needed | 22:47 |
| keithy | I think you have the gift of diplomacy | 22:50 |
| thumper | :) | 22:51 |
| keithy | looks like I am going to have to put a licence file in each branch | 22:53 |
| persia | Best to put a license header in each file, if you can (although this sometimes requires lots of research and coordination) | 22:54 |
| keithy | we smalltalkers are not used to files | 22:54 |
| keithy | they are a bit of a modern idea | 22:54 |
| thumper | haha | 22:57 |
| keithy | it would be helpful if Squeak_L was considered ok for launchpad use so that older stuff could be ripped apart | 23:00 |
| keithy | and code history preserved | 23:00 |
| keithy | since 98% of older stuff has been relicenced | 23:01 |
| keithy | about 10 contributors could not be traced | 23:01 |
| lifeless | keithy: its not really our business; if you assert that its MIT licence, its MIT licence. | 23:02 |
| keithy | the new code is MIT | 23:02 |
| lifeless | what matters is that when someone looks at the code, that the licence is clear. | 23:02 |
| persia | Well, the act of assertion also matters: as in most jurisdictions, fair dealing applies, and the assertion significantly limits the liability to the hosting organisation. | 23:02 |
| thumper | keithy: if you want to take control of the squeak project in Launchpad to maintain it, ask a question on the launchpad project | 23:04 |
| keithy | I did that yesterday | 23:07 |
| arand | Are there any download statistics for ppas? It would be nice to know if the things are being currently used or not.. | 23:44 |
| wgrant | arand: No, but I completed a preliminary implementation of it over the weekend. | 23:46 |
| wgrant | So it might well be Coming Soon™. | 23:46 |
| beuno | wgrant, really? woooo! you rock dude | 23:47 |
| arand | wgrant: Oh, nice, looking forward to it! | 23:47 |
| wgrant | beuno: I did the necessary parser refactor late last year, and it was only going to be a few more hours work to finish it, so I JFDI. | 23:48 |
| beuno | wgrant, I remember you started it, but thought there was some sort of unexpected complexity blocking it | 23:50 |
| wgrant | Bug #139855 | 23:50 |
| ubottu | Launchpad bug 139855 in soyuz "Display stats about PPA usage" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/139855 | 23:50 |
| wgrant | beuno: The main blocker is working out how to expose the information. | 23:50 |
| beuno | wgrant, I can help you with that tomorrow | 23:50 |
| beuno | this is just the number per package, right? | 23:51 |
| wgrant | beuno: Much like LFA counts, the count is stored by (archive, binary package name, binary package version, day, country) | 23:51 |
| wgrant | The bug also suggests that we should monitor index downloads, but it's less clear how those will work. | 23:52 |
| beuno | gotcha | 23:52 |
| beuno | ok | 23:52 |
| beuno | so I'll try and propose something on that bug tomorrow | 23:52 |
| wgrant | For now I've just exposed it reasonably usably through the API. | 23:53 |
| wgrant | Further API and UI exposure is just about trivial once we work out what's wanted. | 23:53 |
| wgrant | Thanks. | 23:53 |
| beuno | sounds like a good plan | 23:54 |
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