[10:46] <zniavre> good morning
[10:46] <zniavre> why my old layout icons theme does not fully works anymore on Lucid (trash on nautilus sidepanel etc...)
[10:48] <zniavre> do we hav to make icons theme as humanity does ? folder with differents size >16/22/24/32/48/64
[11:00] <kwwii> zniavre: no, you can do it per size with the other bits beneath
[11:00] <kwwii> zniavre: humanity is the only theme I know of which does it that way
[11:01] <kwwii> zniavre: but it should not matter how you di it
[11:01] <kwwii> do it
[11:01] <kwwii> as long as the index.theme file points to the right dirs and such
[11:07] <zniavre> i got worries with  trash icon
[11:07] <kwwii> hrm, no idea what the problem could be
[11:07] <kwwii> nothing has really changed in that respect
[11:08] <zniavre> ok
[11:08] <kwwii> zniavre: my only suggestion would be to look at the names in humanity and see if your stuff is using different names
[11:08] <kwwii> the icon names, not their placement in the dirs is most important
[11:08] <kwwii> as long as the dirs are listed in the index.theme file
[11:08] <zniavre> yes im doing this (if my daughters can leave in peace it will be better)
[11:09] <zniavre> :o)
[11:11] <zniavre> thank you
[11:12] <zniavre> ill check this after lunch time
[11:12] <zniavre> bon appetit !
[11:47] <zac_> Homosapien evolves - http://gnome-look.org/content/preview.php?preview=3&id=119496&file1=119496-1.png&file2=119496-2.png&file3=119496-3.png&name=Homosapien+Metacity+0.9+%2B+Customizer+0.3
[11:51] <vish> zac_: neat work :)  do you plan to release it as a standalone tool? [that would be quite nice]
[11:52] <zac_> hmm i wasnt planing to as its already accessible online
[11:53] <zac_> thanks for the kind words also :-)
[11:53] <vish> ;)
[12:05] <kwwii> zac_: good stuff, I hope we can include it in lucid
[12:09] <darkmatter> interesting: http://anubis-os.org/home/
[12:09] <zac_> kwwii: ta. dashua said he would try to get it included so heres hoping
[12:11] <thorwil> "Instead of cleaning up the operating environment, so that it gets simpler to understand, most systems today mask the operating system elements with heavy applications and software layers."
[12:27] <darkmatter> yeah, they don't have the best wording, but I can agree with the general mindset. I'm not interested in joining the project (I'm not interested in creating clonish environments, lol), but will be keeping track of their progress
[12:34] <darkmatter> the 'lowest common denominator' approach is something I've been on about for ages. simple, straight forward, click less, do more, extensible, blah blah
[12:34] <darkmatter> I'm not sure they'll be able to pull it off with an amiga-ish approach, but anything is possible
[15:47] <psyke83> hi
[15:59]  * darkmatter scores a point against gnomes art team and files charges of IP infringement :o
[16:01] <coz_> psyke83,  hello
[16:01] <coz_> darkmatter,  hey guy
[16:02] <darkmatter> heya coz_
[16:03] <psyke83> hey
[16:03] <psyke83> darkmatter: what IP infringement?
[16:05] <darkmatter> psyke83: joke. I was just referencing a 'trying to make a point to art team members until blue in the face' debate(s) where the blatantly told me I was wrong regarding certain metaphors, and now a year later they are switching to the same icon metaphors in git
[16:06] <coz_> darkmatter,  typical lol
[16:06] <darkmatter> I win, they fail, and the probably dun remember me originally suggesting them *shrug*
[16:06] <psyke83> ah, I misread that as "gnome-art", (as in, the site gnome-art.org)
[16:07] <coz_> darkmatter,  arguing with gnome devs or art team has always been useless  from my experience :)
[16:07] <darkmatter> coz_: lol. yea
[16:08] <coz_> making mere suggestions to them often ends up as an argument or being banned :)
[16:09] <darkmatter> coz_: especially when they brush of everything you say and then use the idea(s) anyway and take sole credit for them. it's awesome! </sarcasm>
[16:10] <coz_> darkmatter,  for sure....
[16:10] <coz_> darkmatter,  I stopped arguing with them a few years ago
[16:10] <coz_> darkmatter,  when I realized it wasnt me it was them I stopped
[16:10] <darkmatter> coz_: and people tell me I'm rude and insulting for calling gnome devs and art people narcissistic wannabes. yeah...
[16:11] <coz_> darkmatter,  oh!! that was putting it midly :)
[16:11] <coz_> darkmatter,  mildly
[16:11] <darkmatter> hehe
[16:12] <darkmatter> coz_: maybe it's rude and insulting because the truth hurts? :O
[16:12] <darkmatter> *revelation*
[16:12] <coz_> darkmatter,   I dont think it was rude to say that stuff...they are that and more at times....albeit  very bright in what they can accomplish
[16:12] <coz_> personalities sometimes negate the work being done
[16:14] <coz_> darkmatter,  now what I do is sit here...swing my arms in anger at them , but dont type a single word :)
[16:14] <darkmatter> coz_: I know. just being a smart ass, since that general statement earned me a 'staining the walls with my shit' (I believe that's the direct quote) comment yesterday
[16:14] <coz_> darkmatter,  lol  you're joking?  they said that ? LOL
[16:15] <vish> darkmatter: which icon[s] ?
[16:18] <darkmatter> coz_: nah. it was said in this channel early yesterday, because someone linked a 'profound' observation (and a broken one two. yet more money wasted sponsoring hackfests) from a gnome dudes blog, and I brushed it off as a been there, failed at that (regarding the methodology) and brought up the widespread attitude in gnome (and other parts of floss) that prevent any level of meaningful co-operation
[16:19] <coz_> darkmatter,  said here??? wow that's surprising
[16:19] <darkmatter> vish: I'll have to look though the status and the git logs. but most recent one is from just a while ago, they're dropping the binoculars from the find-replace and search metaphors
[16:20] <vish> ah , yeah those find icons looked weird
[16:20] <darkmatter> coz_: nothing surprises me. everyone has an opinion and many vehemently defend said opinions
[16:21] <darkmatter> vish: other changes I remember being told were 'wrongful' when I tried suggesting them initially. I'm just to lazy to look them up :P
[16:21] <coz_> darkmatter,  well making suggestions to gnome art is never going to ge
[16:21] <darkmatter> vish: no biggy. but I count that as points scored in my favor! :P
[16:21] <coz_> get you  listed as contributor
[16:22] <darkmatter> coz_: I know, and I'll never contribute because I can't stand the pompousness of it
[16:22]  * vish remembers darkmatter only a few days/months ago , being happy that one of the gnome devs liked his theme changes ;p 
[16:22] <coz_> ah oh ^^ :)
[16:23] <darkmatter> vish: nah. that was jimmac praising my opensuse theme changes. I'm referencing g-i-t currently :P
[16:24] <vish> darkmatter: so much for taste , eh ?  if they like it they are good else not?  ;p   i'd say just stick to they suck and accept your theme was bad too ;p
[16:25]  * vish j/k
[16:26] <darkmatter> vish: the themes a different fish. and I never said 'they didn't like the icon suggestions'. I said they said 'nooo... you're wrong!!!' to the metaphor changes and used them anyway (be it a year later). it's more me laughing at the silliness of it all
[16:26] <vish> darkmatter: yeah , it happens you are light yrs ahead of all of us :D
[16:27] <darkmatter> speaking of themes. I should finish up work on that this weekend, see if I can get the changes accepted
[16:27] <darkmatter> vish: nah. I'm not lightyears ahead. I just don't ignore the obvious :P
[16:28] <darkmatter> well, maybe some of my stuff is 'lightyears ahead', but I doubt it. I just reverse engineer the way people work and attempt to apply it to interaction design
[16:31] <darkmatter> so I basically do things the reverse of the contemporary methodology. and it works (well, it's more involved than that, but you get the picture)
[17:18] <thorwil> some guy is trying to bring some structure into ubuntu-marketing. not the first attempt
[17:19] <thorwil> interestingly, he thinks artwork should be part of it. http://i49.tinypic.com/2mmbsz8.jpg
[17:20] <knome> thorwil, if you pick it up skeptically, it won't work ;]
[17:20] <thorwil> knome: i pick up everything skeptically. somehow a few things survive that
[17:21] <Equiet> Who's that guy?
[17:21] <knome> thorwil, ;]
[17:23] <thorwil> Equiet: John Vilsack
[17:27] <thorwil> i actually think he makes some good points, but this total disconnect between marketing and artwork has been bothering me
[17:28] <thorwil> i'd wish it wasn't "artwork", but rather "design". there'd be no marketing, that's up to Canonical
[17:28] <thorwil> but i guess people wouldn't be happy with "evangelism" or "cheer-leading"
[17:29]  * knome cheers thorwil 
[17:29] <knome> bbl
[17:33] <thorwil> hmm, promotion, proselytizing, brainwashing, indoctrination, crusading ain't good terms, either
[17:35] <thorwil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/Meetings/Minutes/2009-11-12/UCMT_Restructure-Proposal
[17:35]  * thorwil -> dinner
[18:26]  * thorwil scrolls through the amazing backlog since he left
[18:45] <knome> :P
[18:52] <thorwil> knome: i liked your cheering more ;p
[18:52] <knome> hehe
[20:10] <troy_s> thorwil: Greets.
[20:11] <thorwil> hi troy_s
[20:11] <troy_s> thorwil: How goes it?
[20:12] <thorwil> troy_s: funny things happen that i will only be able to explain later on :)
[20:12] <troy_s> thorwil: Uh... like?
[20:12] <thorwil> later ;)
[20:12] <thorwil> troy_s: meanwhile, you might be interested in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Artwork?action=AttachFile
[20:13] <troy_s> thorwil: Alright. How about a general 'realm' clue? No idea what your 'things' are related to.
[20:13] <thorwil> troy_s: the first 4 are testing free/open-source fonts
[20:14] <thorwil> troy_s: there's at least on typographic mistake in all examples and a questionable categorization in there
[20:15] <troy_s> thorwil: Looking now... just dling
[20:15] <thorwil> troy_s: of course i only left those issues in them for you to find ;)
[20:15] <troy_s> thorwil: Pretty sure I wont.
[20:15] <knome> yeah, you have to make sure people are awake.
[20:15] <knome> :P
[20:16] <thorwil> seriously, these might be handy if you need to make a similar choice
[20:16] <troy_s> thorwil: What is up with the cranky pixelated pdf?
[20:16] <thorwil> fonts not in there disqualified themselves with unacce ptable keming
[20:17] <troy_s> thorwil: Hrm. Did you test on various levels of smoothing?
[20:17] <troy_s> thorwil: I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that 'slight' for example tends to yield different kerning than none and heavy.
[20:18] <thorwil> troy_s: evince may take a while until it renders the current view in actual resolution
[20:18] <troy_s> thorwil: It's the title one :)
[20:19] <troy_s> thorwil: Title test... seems to not be anti-aliasing or something odd.
[20:19] <thorwil> troy_s: oh, that's an issue with the inkscape version in Karmic
[20:20] <thorwil> it fucks up the outlines in some cases
[20:20] <troy_s> thorwil: It poops out PDFs with anti-aliasing botched?
[20:20] <thorwil> though that shouldn't have slipped my attention
[20:20] <troy_s> thorwil: Anyways, the numero uno big wtf is how absolutely craptastic the Ubuntu uh... what do you call it... uh... font?
[20:21] <thorwil> troy_s: only for some fonts in some cases. that inkscape 0.47pre-something. the actual inkscape release does not have that issue
[20:22] <troy_s> thorwil: How has the response been? What do you feel about the tests?
[20:23] <thorwil> troy_s: the title test had only one response. agreeing with me that the font-logo-type combination is not the way to go
[20:23] <troy_s> thorwil: Would have been nice to see the labels for family in the tests.
[20:23] <troy_s> thorwil: Well yes, because the fricking official word font crap is absolutely crap. It is barely acceptable alone and small.
[20:23] <troy_s> lol
[20:23] <thorwil> troy_s: the very last words of each example are the font names
[20:23] <troy_s> thorwil: Ah clever.
[20:24] <thorwil> troy_s: i wanted to avoid a bias because of some of the fonts being well known
[20:24] <troy_s> thorwil: I _believe_ norasi is actually free serif plus glyph coverage. I originally thought it had a different set of kerning tables though... can't remember.
[20:24] <troy_s> thorwil: Good on you.
[20:24] <troy_s> thorwil: Also clever
[20:24] <thorwil> ty
[20:24] <troy_s> thorwil: So has there been any preference?
[20:25] <troy_s> thorwil: The bold weights are pretty nasty there. Are there titlecases for each set?
[20:26] <troy_s> thorwil: It would be nice to see a reduced titlecase or at the very least, nerf the pointsize on the bold text. It has a helluva lot of gravity at the same point size. (So much so that my knee jerk reaction is to nuke it.)
[20:26] <thorwil> troy_s: yes. i talked through it with Kevin, who takes care of all the latex stuff. with one excpetion, nobody else had input on font selection
[20:26] <troy_s> thorwil: What did Kevin say?
[20:27] <thorwil> troy_s: we sieved the fonts down to Biolinum and Libertine
[20:27] <troy_s> thorwil: Libertine feels pretty damn sparse. Liberation is rigid as fsck.
[20:27] <troy_s> thorwil: Really?
[20:27] <thorwil> Charis SIL and Gillius were the last to fall
[20:27] <troy_s> thorwil: What were your choices?
[20:28] <thorwil> troy_s: that are my choices
[20:28] <troy_s> thorwil: Erm... reasoning I meant :)
[20:28] <troy_s> thorwil: How did you get Bringhurst's text into it? lol.
[20:29] <troy_s> thorwil: Ah I see the link.
[20:30] <thorwil> troy_s: one of the best kernings / evenness, nice character shapes. a bit light, but the alternatives seemed to say "book" a bit much
[20:30] <troy_s> thorwil: Libertine (assuming the odd density issue is solved)
[20:31] <troy_s> thorwil: Where is biolinum?
[20:31] <thorwil> top row, sans
[20:31] <troy_s> thorwil: Oh ... I skipped the sans. Looks like crap all around.
[20:31] <troy_s> thorwil: And for vast expanses of text, it is hard to argue with a serif.
[20:32] <thorwil> all fonts in top row support Cyrillic. glyph coverage was also an aspect
[20:32] <troy_s> thorwil: That said, it's a good pick out of the sans.
[20:32] <thorwil> troy_s: we use the serif for body text and sans for margin notes and headlines
[20:33] <thorwil> Biolinum and Libertine are from the same source an build a good pair
[20:33] <troy_s> thorwil: Hrm... margin notes sounds good. Headlines though? Seems like a strange pairing to go with a sans and a serif for body. How do those two pair?
[20:33] <troy_s> thorwil: No arguments that they are pretty well crafted (especially noticeable how some of them look like absolute craptastic.)
[20:34] <troy_s> thorwil: Well it all looks extremely positive from here. I'd say a huge plus one over what I have seen.
[20:34] <troy_s> thorwil: And by huge, I mean vast. What are your thoughts on the title cover sample?
[20:34] <troy_s> thorwil: (Manual cover 2010)
[20:35] <troy_s> thorwil: ?
[20:35] <thorwil> serifs may seem a bit conservative. pairing one with a sans lightens that up.
[20:35] <thorwil> one moment, please
[20:36] <troy_s> thorwil: I don't know if I'd go so far to say 'conservative'. Those serifs have a very real impact on left to righting obviously.
[20:36] <thorwil> troy_s: https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/msg00755.html
[20:37] <thorwil> troy_s: serifs do more for longer text and have of a message in that case
[20:38] <thorwil> a headline with serifs is more of a statement.
[20:39] <thorwil> but maybe i have a bias due to starting DTP with adverts where Helvetica was the default :)
[20:39] <thorwil> the say nothing, say nothing wrong font, admittedly
[20:39] <troy_s> thorwil: /me keeps mum on Helvetica.
[20:40] <thorwil> mum?
[20:40] <thorwil> ah, keeping shut
[20:40] <troy_s> thorwil: Hrm... what's the big announcement out of Canonical on uh 'branding'[sic. Use the right term. Branding is something you do to a cow. Christ.]
[20:41] <thorwil> troy_s: we will see
[20:42] <troy_s> thorwil: Cover - watch that right gutter. You trim pretty close to it there. And your left alignment has that 'here nor there' quality it seems. It isn't quite starting edge to edge and it isn't a clear aesthetic choice to align it somewhere in the interior it seems.
[20:42] <troy_s> thorwil: Agree?
[20:42] <troy_s> thorwil: (Might have wads to do with the CoF pulling the gravity on that whole line left quite a chunk.
[20:43] <thorwil> troy_s: actually it is meant to align with margins used internally. a bit narrow, yes
[20:44] <troy_s> thorwil: The lower band watermark (interesting deconstruction - but be wary of Charlie Brown) has an almost odd vertical CoG position - it's pretty low?
[20:44] <troy_s> thorwil: Is the title bold?
[20:45] <troy_s> It is refreshing to see that nasty wordmark not present.
[20:45] <thorwil> troy_s: the band does s it a bit low and i got a remark on that already
[20:45] <troy_s> thorwil: Lol. I'm sure you got a lot of remarks on a lot of things.
[20:46] <troy_s> thorwil: There is no shortage of remarks, is there?
[20:46] <troy_s> lol
[20:46] <thorwil> troy_s: not in this case
[20:46] <thorwil> troy_s: 2 rather short replies
[20:46] <troy_s> thorwil: It is always a matter of who the hell you are going to give a rat's ass about.
[20:47] <thorwil> troy_s: i'm not sure, could be some people don't bother anymore after the leader accepted most of my arguments to inform his decisions
[20:47] <troy_s> thorwil: How is everyone else on the team doing? Given up or???
[20:47] <thorwil> troy_s: i also was a bit brutal with explaining what should and shouldn't be happening :)
[20:49] <thorwil> troy_s: working with Kevin is great, but he stays calm about the title page. vish is busy otherwise. wolter doesn't respond
[20:49] <troy_s> thorwil: Kevin seems to have his bits together. Is he thinking the cover has stunk thus far?
[20:50] <thorwil> troy_s: no. i really don't know what he thinks of it
[20:51] <thorwil> troy_s: what i do know is that he knows, even read Tschichold
[20:51] <troy_s> thorwil: Martin's comment on the face selection are way off. He really doesn't have a clue.
[20:51] <troy_s> thorwil: Wow. Well that bodes extremely well.
[20:51] <thorwil> troy_s: i had several points of what i wanted to change internally and almost always he said he was planning to do that already :)
[20:52] <troy_s> thorwil: As I said, it really would be not a bad thing to simply follow verbatim those two guys.
[20:52] <troy_s> thorwil: No need to be creative in typesetting when there isn't someone with a significant resume to bring something new to the table.
[20:52] <troy_s> thorwil: But I bet Kevin probably says the same thing.
[20:52] <troy_s> thorwil: Who is Martin out of curiosity and why is he compelled to make a comment on something that he is clearly in the dark on?
[20:53] <thorwil> troy_s: we just apply a bunch of patterns as seen before, internally, yes
[20:53] <troy_s> thorwil: Do Bringhurst proud.
[20:54] <troy_s> thorwil: At the point size of that title sample, do you think BOLD is necessary? It grabs a pretty huge chunk of real-estate without bolded too.
[20:54] <thorwil> troy_s: he never got my attention elsewhere. i decided to let his input stand uncommented. no bad intentions, no bad feelings
[20:55] <thorwil> troy_s: regular seemed just a little bit too shy. i'll try that again when i get back to this
[20:56] <troy_s> thorwil: I only ask because it (1) Has a pretty massive gravity (that may shift if you adjust and scale for gutter etc.) (2) Doesn't seem as well designed as the standard Roman.
[20:57] <troy_s> thorwil: At least you can make good hay with Kevin on the text body copy. Hopefully the interior ends up unlike the hodge podge nightmares seen all over Libreville.
[20:59] <thorwil> screenshots are a bit worrisome, but otherwise i'm confident
[21:02] <troy_s> thorwil: Just keep the six year old's drawing of the Lynx off the cover and you probably get better by an order of a magnitude on subtraction alone.
[21:04] <thorwil> lol
[21:06] <thorwil> snippet from an email entirely unrelated: "Design is what happens once you know what you are trying to say."
[21:16] <thorwil> troy_s: thanks for the feedback. gotta go, cya
[21:23] <Lcawte> hello, I'm interested in doing some artwork kinda stuff for ubuntu