[05:04] <humphreybc-cell> Just checking in, all going good?
[08:16] <godbyk> hey, thorwil.. how goes it?
[08:16] <thorwil> hi godbyk. all fine. and on your side?
[08:17] <godbyk> not too bad.
[08:17] <godbyk> trying to convince latex that I really do want small-caps in the running heads.
[08:18] <godbyk> When I compile regular English pdf (main.pdf), it works fine.
[08:18] <godbyk> When I compile the English translation (ubuntu-manual-en_GB.pdf), it works fine.
[08:18] <godbyk> When I compile the German translation, it shows the running heads in lowercase, but not small-caps.
[08:18] <thorwil> ouch
[08:19] <godbyk> Yeah, I haven't figured out how LaTeX doing that. :-/
[08:19] <godbyk> Any luck on the inkscape side?
[08:19] <thorwil> regular text would be preferable to full-caps. all lowercase is of course not acceptable
[08:20] <godbyk> Yeah, LaTeX defaults to having the running heads in full caps, which I think looks horrible.
[08:20] <godbyk> So I have to beat it senseless to get things in small-caps.
[08:20] <godbyk> (Though for some scripts that don't have small-caps, we'll have to tweak that.)
[08:20] <thorwil> godbyk: the one issue i had is solved by using a manually build actual release version (instead of a pre ...)
[08:21] <godbyk> cool.
[08:21] <godbyk> have you been designing a new title page?
[08:22] <thorwil> godbyk: if you follow the list, you should know https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Artwork?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=manual_cover_2010-02-22.pdf
[08:24] <godbyk> Oh, I must've missed that on the list.
[08:24] <godbyk> I like it!
[08:25] <godbyk> That'll work a lot better with printer margins that what we had before.
[08:25] <godbyk> (We don't have to worry about text getting cut off.)
[08:26] <godbyk> Y'know, that design is simple enough that I may be able to generate that title page in LaTeX itself.
[08:26] <godbyk> Then the translated title, author, and edition can be put in automatically.
[08:29] <thorwil> godbyk: can you do custom kerning in that case?
[08:29] <godbyk> Sure!
[08:29] <godbyk> To kern in LaTeX, you can use the \kern command.
[08:29] <thorwil> cool. the title needs it
[08:30] <godbyk> For instance, the \LaTeX command (that makes the A smaller and slide on top of the L and pulls the T over, etc.) uses kerning.
[08:30] <godbyk> You can say, for instance, "U\kern0.01em buntu" to add space between the U and b.
[08:30] <thorwil> good
[08:31] <godbyk> We can also apply letterspacing if need be.
[08:31] <thorwil> godbyk: the title page design is put on hold for a bit. likely to be picked up towards the end of next week
[08:32] <godbyk> If you drop the graphic elements into the bzr repository I can try to set up the title page and let you hack on it there if you want.
[08:32] <thorwil> but it will most likely be only refinement, no big changes
[08:32] <godbyk> thorwil: No problem.  I'm trying to get some non-Ubuntu Manual stuff done over the next day or two as well (now that the 48-hours thing is over).
[08:32] <thorwil> godbyk: nah, nothing to be gained by that, currently
[08:33] <godbyk> thorwil: Well, I think the title page looks splendid.  It greatly simplifies future work, meets the design requirements we laid out, and looks nice to boot!
[08:33] <thorwil> godbyk: thank you!
[08:34] <godbyk> (It'll also make the PDF size considerably smaller since the graphics are simpler!)
[08:35] <godbyk> I with the Biolinium font were a little further along in its design.
[08:37] <godbyk> thorwil: Aha! I see your email now.  That was sent during the 48-hours thing where I was mostly dead.  I did star the email to read later, though. :)
[08:38] <thorwil> heh
[08:40] <godbyk> What's the 'passage into light' comment mean? What ideas do you have there?  (I remember wolter's door title page.)
[08:42] <godbyk> Something I haven't brought up yet, but I think we need to decide at some point is: I think we should include a version number of sorts on the copyright page.  (It could be in the edition/printing style or an x.y style; I'm not picky)
[08:43] <godbyk> A new edition means that there is new content or that something has changed somewhat substantially.
[08:43] <godbyk> A new 'printing' (or point release, in computer software versioning parlance), would just mean we've fixed some typos and whatnot.
[08:44] <godbyk> So the initial release of the Getting Started with Ubuntu 10.04 would be first edition, first printing (or 1.01).
[08:44] <godbyk> If we fix some typos and make minor changes, the printing number gets bumped: first edition, second printing (or 1.02).
[08:45] <godbyk> If we add a few new sections for describe new software, we'd bump the edition: second edition, first printing (or 2.01).
[08:45] <godbyk> When we release a book for Lucid+1, it would be titled Getting Started with Ubuntu 10.10 and it would reset the edition/printing: first edition, first printing (or 1.01).
[08:45] <godbyk> Thoughts?
[08:45] <thorwil> godbyk: i never saw a "second printing" in use
[08:46] <godbyk> It's never spelled out like that.
[08:46] <godbyk> If you look at the copyright page of a book, you'll sometimes see a string of numbers.  The first set of numbers refer to the year, the second set refer to the printing in that year.
[08:47] <godbyk> (Since everyone prints electronically now, I have seen a few instances of 'second printing' spelled out in words, but it's still rare.)
[08:49] <thorwil> godbyk: the "second edition" thing was meant to cover simple fixes, if need be. while it may lead to an expectation of deeper changes, my worry was about marking a changed version without making it more complicated than necessary
[08:50] <godbyk> thorwil: Generally, a new edition implies more changes than simple typos.  (And it usually involves a separate ISBN than the first edition, though this doesn't affect us at the moment.)
[08:50] <thorwil> godbyk: maybe calling it "Version" or "Release" instead of "Edition" would be better
[08:51] <godbyk> I guess it depends on how often we spit out new 'editions'.  I'd like to avoid having a "fifty-third edition" two months in. :-)
[08:51] <godbyk> That could work as well.
[08:52] <thorwil> godbyk: i'll write a mail to the list about this
[08:52] <godbyk> Okey doke.
[08:52] <godbyk> It's not a huge deal by any means, we should just consider it at some point.
[08:55] <thorwil> godbyk: "passage into the light" is my description of wolter's concept
[08:56] <thorwil> so indeed the door title page
[08:56] <godbyk> Right. I was confused by what you were saying about it, though.
[08:56] <godbyk> You think that concept should be applied to the title page you created?
[08:56] <godbyk> You think an alternative title page should be created with that concept?
[08:56] <thorwil> godbyk: no
[08:58] <godbyk> I'm confused by the question you directed to Wolter, then. :)
[08:58] <thorwil> godbyk: after i shot down that proposal and called for not having a lynx, Ben suggested that 2 proposals should be created
[08:58] <godbyk> ah.
[08:58] <godbyk> we're back to multiple proposals again, then. okay.
[08:58] <thorwil> godbyk: one with the door concept. i agreed on the assumption that wolter would take care of that
[08:59] <godbyk> Gotcha.
[08:59] <thorwil> godbyk: but if he doesn't ... i won't
[08:59] <godbyk> Has anyone heard anything more on this mysterious Ubuntu rebranding stuff?
[09:01] <thorwil> if, hypothetically speaking, someone here knew more about it, he would most likely not be allowed to speak about it. he shouldn't even mention it
[09:01] <godbyk> Looking at my chat logs with humphreybc, he said it's to be announced today at 1800 UTC.  So I guess I'll have to wait a few hours.
[09:01] <godbyk> True.
[09:02] <godbyk> Do you know of someplace where someone could temporarily upload a PDF file so I can download it? He apparently can't email this PDF because it's too big.
[09:03] <thorwil> godbyk: did he say anything more about it?
[09:03] <godbyk> thorwil: Nope.  I don't think he knows much more about it.
[09:03] <thorwil> godbyk: attach it to a wiki page?
[09:04] <godbyk> Looks like it's supposed to be 20 MB.. might be too big for that.
[09:04] <godbyk> It's for a completely unrelated project I work on when I get time (http://code.google.com/p/tufte-latex/
[09:04] <godbyk> )
[09:04] <thorwil> godbyk: try it. the wiki does allow multi-MB attachments. no idea on a limit
[09:05] <godbyk> right
[09:07] <thorwil> someday, if i ever feel like i have money to spend again, i need to get a book by Tufte
[09:11] <godbyk> I enjoy them.
[09:11] <godbyk> I got started with the Tufte-LaTeX project because I liked his book designs and wanted to learn more LaTeX.
[09:11] <godbyk> Now I'm (currently) the sole developer on the project.
[09:11] <godbyk> Nothing like getting thrown in the deep end of the pool to learn how to swim!
[09:14] <thorwil> heh
[09:20] <humphreybc> evening everyone, how are we tonight?
[09:20] <humphreybc> or today/thismorning
[09:21] <thorwil> hi humphreybc, all good
[09:21] <godbyk> humphreybc: not too bad.
[09:21] <godbyk> did you get the download speed info I sent you yesterday?
[09:21] <thorwil> humphreybc: what's your source regarding an announcement at 18:00 UTC?
[09:24] <humphreybc> godbyk, yup i sure did! turns out I actually did get 3G but outside my house
[09:24] <humphreybc> so i didn't need to ring vodafone
[09:24] <godbyk> cool
[09:24] <humphreybc> it just seems temperamental
[09:24] <humphreybc> thorwil: can't say sorry
[09:40] <godbyk> humphreybc: Are there any updated UI diagrams for quickshot? I made some suggestions to Tommy or someone the other day about a set they posted, but I have no idea what direction they decided to go in.
[09:40] <godbyk> (There were few more comments I wanted to make, but I didn't have the full overview of how it was all supposed to work, so I didn't get into them.)
[09:43] <humphreybc> ummmmmmm nope there isn't
[09:43] <humphreybc> i haven't had the chance to create any more
[09:44] <humphreybc> if Tommy emails me the specifications, ie, what each window has to do
[09:44] <humphreybc> i can mock up some new UI diagrams
[09:44] <humphreybc> and then implement them in glade
[09:45] <godbyk> I'm not interested so much in each individual window as I am the overall work flow of the user when she's using the program.
[09:45] <godbyk> e.g., what are the paths the user can take through the program?
[09:51] <humphreybc> ok
[09:51] <humphreybc> i'll have to think about it somewhat and talk with tommy
[09:51] <godbyk> 'kay.
[09:52] <godbyk> Just trying to make sure it's all designed as well as can be since we're so early in the process.
[09:52] <godbyk> (it'll be a lot harder to change fundamental design elements later after code has been written.)
[09:52] <humphreybc> yeah totally
[09:53] <humphreybc> you've seen this right godbyk? http://preyproject.com/
[09:53] <godbyk> humphreybc: yep, I sent the link to you, in fact. :)
[09:53] <humphreybc> haha okay
[09:54] <humphreybc> for some reason prey decided my cellphone was missing today when i rebooted it
[09:54] <humphreybc> and for the whole day it's been sending reports and running GPS
[09:55] <humphreybc> but
[09:55] <humphreybc> it's awesome because it has been working
[09:55] <humphreybc> i'm just looking at the reports now
[09:55] <godbyk> lol, nice.
[09:56] <godbyk> I sent the 'activate prey' sms to my phone to test it once and it worked. I like it.
[09:59] <humphreybc> yeah
[09:59] <humphreybc> im trying to install it on ubuntu but it makes no sense
[09:59] <humphreybc> "Download the package/installer and run it."
[09:59] <humphreybc> "Once all files are in place you’ll need to configure Prey, where you’ll be able to choose between both operation modes. In case you want to use Prey along with the control panel (recommended), you’ll have to register and add your device to obtain your API and Device keys. Prey needs them both so make sure you add them correctly."
[10:00] <humphreybc> all files in place where? run what? API and device keys? what!?
[10:00] <godbyk> yeah, I haven't installed it on my laptop yet.  it's on my TODO list.
[10:01] <humphreybc> when you work out how to do that, let me know
[10:01] <humphreybc> it's a lot more complicated than on android!
[10:02] <godbyk> yeah.
[10:03] <godbyk> I could hug Seth Nickell right now.  (I'm reading his blog entries from this week.)
[10:03] <humphreybc> who's that?
[10:03] <humphreybc> have you tried out "WaveSecure?"
[10:03] <godbyk> He was a UI designer for GNOME ages ago.
[10:03] <godbyk> never heard of wavesecure.
[10:03] <godbyk> http://blogs.gnome.org/seth/
[10:03] <humphreybc> https://www.wavesecure.com/
[10:04] <humphreybc> i saw wavesecure in the market
[10:04] <humphreybc> omg gnome 3!
[10:05] <humphreybc> who does he work for now if not gnome?
[10:05]  * humphreybc needs to amputate his pinky toe
[10:06] <godbyk> He founded his own company called Meatscience, Inc.
[10:06] <humphreybc> lol nice company name
[10:06] <humphreybc> wavesecure looks cool
[10:06] <godbyk> yeah.
[10:06] <humphreybc> https://www.wavesecure.com/wavesecure/android.aspx
[10:07] <godbyk> so the wavesecure program has 4.5 stars in the market, but the three reviews it shows are 1- and 2-star reviews.
[10:07] <humphreybc> "Choose to display a message on the device to prompt the the finder to return the device."
[10:07] <godbyk> plus, I have to say: given the choice between a FOSS program and a commercial, closed-source one, I'm gonna go with the FOSS program.
[10:08] <humphreybc> THIS PHONE WILL SELF DESTRUCT IF NOT RETURNED IN 5 MINUTES
[10:08] <godbyk> lol
[10:08] <godbyk> I'M COMING FOR YOU!
[10:08] <humphreybc> the thing where you can wipe your stuff and backup all your SMS and photos and stuff is cool
[10:09] <humphreybc> and if you download before march 31st, free subscription for life
[10:09] <humphreybc> i'll give it a shot
[10:09] <godbyk> yeah, I saw that.
[10:09] <godbyk> the reviews in the market scared me, though
[10:10] <humphreybc> "WaveSecure costs USD19.90 for a 1-year subscription. WaveSecure is available for BlackBerry, Symbian S60 andWindows Mobile platforms. It is currently free for Android users via the Android Market."
[10:10] <humphreybc> what do they say?
[10:11] <godbyk> lots of them say it's broken and that it locks their phone all the time for no reason.
[10:11] <godbyk> you should glance through them.
[10:11] <godbyk> it's like people only give it either 5 stars or 1 star, nothing in between.
[10:12] <humphreybc> "WaveSecure was initially developed for Police and Military use!"
[10:12] <humphreybc> hmm
[10:12] <humphreybc> prey works okay for now i guess
[10:13] <godbyk> the windows in quickshot don't need to be resizable.
[10:13] <humphreybc> nope they don't
[10:15] <godbyk> in the user setup dialog, centered text is bad.
[10:15] <humphreybc> yea there is a tonne of stuff that needs to be fixed
[10:15] <humphreybc> anyway, i've got a 7am flight tomorrow so i'm gonna get some shut eye!
[10:15] <humphreybc> night!
[10:15] <godbyk> fun
[10:15] <godbyk> g'night!
[13:40] <ubuntujenkins> does any one know if you can pull a specific folder of a branch from launchpad? (using bzr)
[17:15] <ubuntujenkins> what are peoples thoughts as far as branches for photos I think to reduce stuff that has to be downloaded we will have to have forty branches(one for each language). Unless there is a way to pull individual folders. If they are called by the language code that would be easiest right?
[17:18] <thorwil> ubuntujenkins: with screenshots in branches per translation, you couldn't build several translation from a single branch, right?
[17:18] <thorwil> you'd need a checkout for every single translation you want to build
[17:19] <ubuntujenkins> yes that is true we will have to merge each into main at some point. I was thinking as far as speed when the user first runs quickshot
[17:21] <ubuntujenkins> Why don't I make a main screen shots branch and each day I will merge all forty branches into it so that people can pull the whole lot if they want?
[17:23] <ubuntujenkins> be back in a bit please post your thoughts
[17:23] <thorwil> ubuntujenkins: did you talk with the launchpad people?
[17:23] <thorwil> this is clearly out of my expertise
[17:55] <ubuntujenkins> sorry back now thorwil by talking tot the launchpad people do you mean the people in the project who deal with launchpad or the actual luanchpad people?
[17:56] <thorwil> ubuntujenkins: actual
[17:57] <thorwil> when things become complicated, if there are space and performance issues, if it isn't clear what will or won't work ... ask the experts
[17:57] <ubuntujenkins> thanks I will track down #launchpad or what ever it is
[18:23]  * ubuntujenkins well I am going to make forty branches for quickshot
[18:31] <ubuntujenkins> duthcie you merge in the translations right? I am right in thinking you make a branch merge to a specific folder. so I can make the de (german) screenshots  branch merge to main/de/
[18:32] <dutchie> I just do bzr merge lp:~jshholland/ubuntu-manual/manual-trans into trunk
[18:33] <ubuntujenkins> o I need to look a bzr merge next
[18:33] <ubuntujenkins> thanks
[18:38] <wolter> godbyk, oh what happened to your website?
[18:39] <ubuntujenkins> wolter I haven't replied to your e-mail but I haev not clue how to make admins on teitter feeds
[18:39] <wolter> ubuntujenkins, what email?
[18:41] <ubuntujenkins> sorry wolter wrong person
[18:41] <wolter> ok
[19:49] <thorwil> i have a nagging feeling that some readers of the mailing list don't pay a whole lot of attention or somehow have comprehension issues :/
[19:51] <ubuntujenkins> why?
[19:51]  * ubuntujenkins wonders if i misses it as well
[19:54] <maiatoday> thorwil: (or anyone who can help) I managed to install LaTex2009 and I have it in the path but the install script in pkgs says I don't have it installed?
[19:55] <thorwil> ubuntujenkins: running in circles. i started a thread stating a problem with the current plan of using "Second Edition" and so on. few mails later this exact same phrase is suggested as solution
[19:56] <ubuntujenkins> I did actually see that. strange i think people read other parts and not the original.
[19:56] <thorwil> maiatoday: tried using a new terminal instance?
[19:57] <maiatoday> thorwil: yes, I did, and also checked with env. The path to the tex execs is in there also if I call one of then tex bins it works
[19:58] <thorwil> maiatoday: guess it's an issue for godbyk, our man of absolutely central importance :)
[19:59] <maiatoday> ok, I am just scanning the script to see what I can figure out, too, then I'll drop a mail in the mailing list
[20:50] <ubuntujenkins> Right I now know how to make all of the branches merge into the right place. so the set up will be 40 branches all merged regularly in to screenshots-main. Do we want these branches in a seperate project, under ubuntu-manual project or quickshot-project. I am thinking ubuntu-manual project. It is just if we want to have 41 more branches added to the list
[20:51] <ubuntujenkins> thoughts please
[21:04] <thorwil> *yawn*, good night!
[21:05] <ubuntujenkins> night :-)
[21:06] <dutchie> ubuntujenkins: it feels like they should be owned by ~ubuntu-manual (the team) for ubuntu-manual
[21:06] <dutchie> that will make merging them in easier
[21:07] <ubuntujenkins> currently the trials are at lp:~ubuntu-manual/quickshot/screenshots-*
[21:08] <ubuntujenkins> they are owned by the ubuntu manual, merging them all in is complex the quickest way is with a script which will not take long to do.
[21:09] <dutchie> lp:~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual may be better
[21:09] <dutchie> I'm not sure how launchpad handles things like that
[21:10] <ubuntujenkins> cool thats fine I didn't want to populate it with to many yet. I will start adding them. I asked on #bzr and with the help form there I worked out how to do the merges so we will have /ubuntu-manua/ubuntu-manual/screenshots-main organised by /language/chapter*/Picture...
[21:10] <ubuntujenkins> * without checking people thoughts
[21:59] <humphreybc> hey everyone, i've just sent an email to the ML asking for feedback from 48 hours on Ground Control, Lernid and ClassBot
[21:59] <humphreybc> if you guys could have a look and reply to that message with your feedback, that would be great. especially the session leaders, godbyk, IlyaHaykinson and dutchie
[22:16] <ubuntujenkins> humphreybc after talking to the nice people on #bzr I have come to the conclusion that we are going to have to have a branch for screen shots in each language. I will merge them all into one large folder organised by language/chapter*/Picture.... Otherwise there will be allot of downloading for people.
[22:17] <ubuntujenkins> *branch not folder
[22:18] <humphreybc> yep, that sounds good - i think that's what we thought we were going to do anyway
[22:18] <humphreybc> did you ask them about auto merging into branches, and also permissions for branches?
[22:19] <ubuntujenkins> cool I like to keep you up to date, What were you thinking about permissions?
[22:21] <ubuntujenkins> as for merging I will have to write a script to get the layout that we want , its very simple once you know how
[22:23] <ubuntujenkins> Also I think in the final release we should check people are using lucid so that we can;t get screenshots form any other versions of ubuntu
[22:41] <humphreybc> that's a good idea
[22:41] <humphreybc> permissions, either ask them to enter in their launchpad account details or create one if they don't have one (link to creation page)
[22:41] <humphreybc> we could take some ground control code for that stuff
[22:41] <humphreybc> OR somehow have it so that anyone (even if they don't have a launchpad account) can push
[22:43] <ubuntujenkins> I think we should restrict it to ubuntu-manual members as the branches are at the moment. I think the use of the ground control stuff would be a good idea. is the licence of for us to use it?
[22:43] <ubuntujenkins> *ok
[22:44] <humphreybc> yep we can use the GC stuff
[22:44] <humphreybc> so are we going to create the branches under ubuntu-manual or quickshot? or a whole new project?
[22:45] <humphreybc> everyone, we have to start thinking about our ubuntu manual website too
[22:46] <humphreybc> ubuntumanual.com is free i think
[22:46] <ubuntujenkins> I though ubuntu-manual but now I look at it a whole new project as 40 odd branches is going to flood it. But we then need every one to join that project as well.
[22:46] <humphreybc> yeah
[22:46] <humphreybc> well we can make it a subteam of the manual
[22:47] <ubuntujenkins> sweet that sounds a better idea "ubuntu-manual screen shots"?
[22:47] <humphreybc> yeah
[22:47] <humphreybc> i'll create the project page later on
[22:47] <humphreybc> this weekend some time
[22:47] <ubuntujenkins> cool thanks have you heard from tommy recently?
[22:49] <ubuntujenkins> O and I found who has control of the twitter but we have no clue how to add admins.
[23:04] <humphreybc> nope i haven't
[23:04] <humphreybc> you probably can't add admins
[23:04] <humphreybc> just ask for the login and password to it
[23:04] <humphreybc> or change the password to "ubuntumanual" or something
[23:05] <ubuntujenkins> I will do,  I will get him to e-mail it to you and i
[23:06] <dutchie> humphreybc: one 48 hours summary email on the list
[23:06] <humphreybc> dutchie: just saw it
[23:12] <ubuntujenkins> night all
[23:42] <jaminday> Hi all - anyone awake atm?
[23:43] <dutchie> for certain values of "awake"
[23:43] <jaminday> hehe
[23:43] <jaminday> i'm just editing the chapter on command line and had a question
[23:44] <jaminday> RE the usage of folder vs directory - are these two terms interchangeable?
[23:44] <dutchie> yes
[23:44] <dutchie> folder is more windowsy, directory is more unixy
[23:44] <dutchie> but they mean the same
[23:44] <jaminday> ah ok - i wasn't sure whether it was a nautilus vs terminal thing
[23:45] <jaminday> in nautilus they refer to folders
[23:45] <jaminday> but most common commands in terminal (e.g. cd, pwd) refer to directory
[23:46] <dutchie> same reason as above
[23:46] <jaminday> yeah got ya
[23:46] <dutchie> people coming to ubuntu are familiar with "folder" from that other OS, so natilus sticks with the terminology
[23:46] <dutchie> cd/pwd etc all grew up before "folder" was thought of
[23:46] <jaminday> so could i say "The pwd command is short for Print Working Directory; it is used to find out which folder you are currently in."
[23:46] <dutchie> yeah, sure
[23:47] <jaminday> ok good. Folder sounds much more 'friendly' to read all the time than directory