CIA-3ubiquity: evand * r3850 ubiquity/ (debian/changelog ubiquity/frontend/kde_components/PartMan.py):09:43
CIA-3ubiquity: Fix references to create_label and allow_change_step in the KDE09:43
CIA-3ubiquity: frontend's PartMan module (LP: #527932).09:43
CIA-3ubiquity: evand * r3851 ubiquity/ (debian/changelog ubiquity/components/ubi-console-setup.py):10:17
CIA-3ubiquity: str.split returns a list of one empty string when splitting on an10:17
CIA-3ubiquity: empty string.10:17
CIA-3partman-base: cjwatson * r183 ubuntu/ (52 files in 5 dirs): merge from Debian 13810:23
ubottuError: Debian bug 138 could not be found10:23
cjwatsonev: is anyone working on converting ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu to po4a?  translate-toolkit no longer ships po2html (the changelog says it was too badly broken to use), so u-s-u won't build, but I started on the change and it seems fairly complex10:54
evcjwatson: ah, lovely.  I'll take care of it.11:07
cjwatsonok, cool11:22
cjwatsonI mostly noticed because the current slides/index.html has been mangled onto a single line, including JavaScript comments, which extend to the end of the line :-)11:23
evah, yikes11:23
evdear po4a, thanks for not using return codes.  No love, Evan.11:26
cjwatsonyou mean for whether something was translated?  you probably just want to let it decide that itself ...?11:27
evyeah, good call11:28
cjwatsonit has a --keep option which is sometimes useful for tuning things11:28
evindeed, though I'm not sure what a reasonable value for that would be.  I'm inclined to keep it at 0 for at least the time being, so there's not confusion as to why certain translations are not showing up.11:29
cjwatsonyeah, or maybe 1, which would mirror the current behaviour (any translations at all => keep it)11:30
evah, right11:31
CIA-3ubiquity: cjwatson * r3849 parted-2.1/ (4 files in 2 dirs):11:31
CIA-3ubiquity: Automatic update of included source packages: partconf11:31
CIA-3ubiquity: 1.32ubuntu1~ppa1, partman-base 135ubuntu5~ppa1.11:31
cjwatsonanyway I should stop back-seat-driving :-)11:31
evI'm always appreciative of the advice, but I'll interpret that as "I've got other things to do and I'm being polite" ;)11:34
cjwatsonno, I just remembered how it's really annoying to be trying to do something when people are going "but you could paint it RED"11:35
evhaha, fair enough11:36
CIA-3ubiquity: cjwatson * r3850 parted-2.1/debian/changelog: releasing version 2.1.29~ppa111:36
evmmm optimal address alignment11:37
cjwatsonI'm still not sure whether partman needs to do anything special to make use of it11:38
cjwatsondo you have any hardware that cares?11:38
evnot to my knowledge11:39
evScott might, he was asking for it the other week11:39
cjwatsonI think the default is probably cylinder-alignment11:40
cjwatsonprobably have to hit it with ped_device_get_optimal_aligned_constraint11:40
cjwatsonor something11:40
cjwatsonhmm, it would help if we built parted against blkid11:42
cjwatsonev: what's the status of bug 336751?11:57
ubottuLaunchpad bug 336751 in ubiquity ""Starting up the partitioner" uses separate window misleadingly" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/33675111:57
evif memory serves, michaelforrest doesn't believe it's a bug, and definitely didn't did not like the solution I came up with of providing a transition between pages with a GtkSpinner embedded in the window.11:59
evmichaelforrest: is that accurate?12:00
michaelforrestI think that's  a different bug12:01
michaelforresthaving the full page spinner for normal transitions (that are also accompanied by a spinning mouse cursor) is definitely a no-no. This bug you're talking about now is to do with avoiding any new windows being spawned12:03
michaelforrestI'm not sure what the solution is12:03
michaelforrestdo we need to say 'starting up the partitioner' at all? can't we just spin the mouse cursor like everywhere else and wait for it to appear? (is it in a new window?)12:03
michaelforrest(by the way, we do have a much nicer idea for this sort of thing in future, but it's not quite designed-up yet!)12:04
michaelforrestI'll add my comments to the bug, shall I12:05
CIA-3ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: evand * r215 ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/ (debian/changelog slideshows/kubuntu/slides/chat.html): Fix typo in Kubuntu chat slide.12:05
michaelforrestev remind me - how long does it take for that window to appear normally?12:05
michaelforrestor is it proportional to hard drive size / cpu?12:06
eva few seconds12:06
evat most12:06
michaelforrestdo you have a screenshot handy?12:07
michaelforrest(I can get one - not a big deal if not)12:07
evof what it looks like with the window up?12:07
cjwatsonpartitioner time taken is roughly proportional to the number of partitions12:07
michaelforrestok so I've selected "Specify partitions manually" and clicked "Forward"12:07
cjwatsonit's roughly five times faster in lucid now than in karmic12:08
michaelforrestI would like the button itself to become disabled and contain the progress bar...12:08
cjwatsonbut I still have a (not completely unreasonable) test case where it takes 15 seconds or so to start up12:08
cjwatsonobviously when that was a minute plus, it was more of a big deal12:08
cjwatsonmaybe now we could just spin12:10
cjwatsonI think part of what annoyed mpt is that you get a dialog popping up after some operations in the manual partitioner, not just at startup12:11
cjwatsonwell, maybe not, that's not what his bug says, looking at it12:11
cjwatsonit annoys me :)12:11
michaelforrestthis came up in the dallas design sprint basically - it's just about avoiding new windows12:12
cjwatsonmichaelforrest: would it make a difference to have the full-page spinner *just* for partitioner startup, not for other page transitions?12:12
cjwatsonI agree that it is jarring to have it for all page transitions12:12
michaelforrestcjwatson: that full page thing is just awful and should be forgotten about as soon as possible12:13
michaelforrestI have responded to the bug - I hope you think my suggestion makes sense12:13
cjwatsonI think it came from mpt's comment "So, I suggest that while waiting for the partitioner to launch, the spinner should be centred in the pane"12:13
michaelforrestyeah .. no :)12:13
michaelforrestso I'm saying we change the text of 'Forward' to 'starting partitioner'12:14
cjwatsonthe only query I have there is that it would cause the Forward button to expand very significantly, and push everything else to the left12:14
cjwatsonwouldn't that look odd?12:14
mptmichaelforrest, so "Back" should temporarily jump to the left?12:14
michaelforrestso that it's not too disconcerting that it's taking longer than usual12:14
michaelforrestmpt: I don't see why not. The decision has been made now- it's not like the user is aiming for the button12:14
cjwatsonhow about instead we show the partitioner page, but put "Starting partitioner..." in its contents?12:14
michaelforrestcjwatson: I would be happy with that solution too12:15
cjwatsonand then fill in the proper contents of the page once we know what they should be12:15
michaelforrestyeah that works for me12:15
cjwatson(and spin the mouse cursor, of course)12:15
mptmichaelforrest, because it would look ugly12:15
michaelforrestbut a full screen blank screen with a spinner in the center is beautiful?12:16
mptmichaelforrest, no, but it would be less ugly. It's the same as (for example) System Preferences panes when they're slow to load.12:16
michaelforrestI think we have a solution here now - colin's suggestion is informative and responsive in a way that staying on the same page while waiting won't be12:17
michaelforrestso it's moot12:17
cjwatsonev: what do you think about my temporary-page-contents option?  I forget how straightforward that is to implement12:18
cjwatsonfor operations in the manual partitioner, I think now we can probably just ditch the progress dialog there and use a spinner12:18
evcjwatson: manual partitioner operations>  we already do12:19
cjwatsonI'm obviously behind12:19
evcjwatson: I'm a bit confused, are you saying we should put this "starting partitioner..." message on just the advanced partition page listview as it starts, or would we also be placing it somewhere on the automatic page as it starts?12:20
cjwatsonI think I mean on the advanced partitioner page as it starts; for the automatic partitioning page, it seems to me that we'd probably be better off with just a spinner12:21
cjwatsonparticularly now that os-prober output will have been cached from earlier on12:21
cjwatson(clock-setup runs it)12:21
evokay, so would be it be okay to use the existing spinner and progress message location on the advanced partitioning page for this?12:21
cjwatsondo we have a progress message on the advanced partitioning page, other than in the progress dialog?12:22
mptmichaelforrest, sure, that sounds fine12:22
evcjwatson: yes, http://people.canonical.com/~evand/tmp/transitions.html - ignore the page transitions, skip straight to the advanced partitioning page12:24
evassuming I correctly understand your question12:24
mptev, maybe you want to suppress the spinner until/unless the next step has taken more than, say, 2 seconds to display -- otherwise the installer might seem slower than it is12:26
mptOtherwise, that looks pretty cool12:26
cjwatsonOK, I'd forgotten that had landed.  Modulo mpt's comments, yeah, I think that's fine12:26
evmpt: just to be clear, by spinner we're talking about the spinning mouse cursor, correct?12:26
cjwatsonso we can display the full list box and all the furniture of that page, and just have that in-page spinner and progress message12:27
mptev, no, the GtkSpinner as shown in that Flash12:27
evon the advanced partitioning page?12:28
cjwatsoncommented on the bug; does this match everyone's understanding?12:29
CIA-3ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: evand * r216 ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Move from po2html, which is no longer included in Debian, to po4a.12:38
evspeaking of the slideshow, Dylan became an Ubuntu member last night.  An attempt to gain per-package upload rights will hopefully follow :)12:45
CIA-3ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: evand * r217 ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/debian/ (5 files):13:17
CIA-3ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: Make each slideshow package Replace and Conflict the ubiquity-13:17
CIA-3ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: slideshow virtual package, to ensure that only one slideshow can be13:17
CIA-3ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: installed at a time and so we can put all of the files in a single13:17
CIA-3ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: location (LP: #526483). The upgrade slideshows do the same with the13:17
CIA-3ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: ubiquity-slideshow-upgrade virtual package.13:17
CIA-3ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: evand * r218 ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/ (debian/changelog update-launchpad-translations.sh):13:34
CIA-3ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: Update update-launchpad-translations.sh to reflect recent directory13:34
CIA-3ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: layout changes.13:34
CIA-3ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: evand * r219 ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/ (134 files in 3 dirs): Update translations from Launchpad.14:01
CIA-3ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: evand * r220 ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/ (debian/changelog po/ubuntu/br.po): Remove possibly inappropriate URL from br translation (LP #528465).14:14
ubottuLaunchpad bug 528465 in ubuntu-translations "Inappropriate br translation in ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/52846514:14
CIA-3ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: evand * r221 ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/debian/changelog: fix LP format on previous commit14:14
cjwatsoncool, parted 2.1 at least seems to minimally work with the installer14:26
CIA-3ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: evand * r222 ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/debian/changelog: releasing version 1514:38
CIA-3partman-base: cjwatson * r184 ubuntu/debian/ (changelog control):14:43
CIA-3partman-base: Build against parted 2.1. We don't use its improved alignment features14:43
CIA-3partman-base: yet, but we plan to do so by Lucid.14:43
CIA-3ubiquity: evand * r3852 ubiquity/ (debian/changelog ubiquity/frontend/kde_ui.py):14:43
CIA-3ubiquity: Update the KDE frontend with the new slideshow location (as of14:43
CIA-3ubiquity: ubiquity-slideshow 15).14:43
evmichaelforrest: would I be correct in assuming that you'll provide the text for the restricted extras page?  Do you know if this is something that Amanda needs to approve before we push it into the archive?14:56
CIA-3partman-base: cjwatson * r185 ubuntu/debian/changelog: releasing version 138ubuntu114:57
michaelforrestev: I am going to brief Roz about it and then yeah, I imaging Amanda will need to approve it too14:58
michaelforrestev: however, before anything else, I want a go-ahead from Mark!14:58
michaelforrestI think I'll get it started actually14:59
michaelforrestwe'll never get it done otherwise14:59
evmichaelforrest: by the way, the jockey installer integration didn't make it for lucid14:59
evhardware drivers14:59
michaelforrestthat was the thing we needed for my second checkbox to work?14:59
evsorry, it's entirely my fault14:59
CIA-3partconf: cjwatson * r835 ubuntu/debian/control: set Vcs-Bzr for Ubuntu15:09
CIA-3partconf: cjwatson * r836 ubuntu/debian/changelog: releasing version 1.32ubuntu115:10
michaelforrestcjwatson: is there any way I can see the work that cody sent you?15:13
michaelforrestcjwatson: the pre-greeter stuff?15:14
cjwatsonboot a current desktop image, press F6, add " maybe-ubiquity" (no quotes) to the end of the kernel parameters15:14
michaelforrestooh ok cool15:14
cjwatsonthat's not quite what Cody sent me since I did a bit of polishing, but what he sent just had the left half of the screen red and the right half blue ;-)15:15
michaelforrestwill yesterday's work?15:15
cjwatsonso I figured anything was an improvement15:15
cjwatsonyeah, should do15:15
cjwatsonI'm not sure both actions are hooked up properly, but you'll get the idea15:15
cjwatsonI hate the language selector the way it is right now; I don't think a giant drop-down work15:15
cjwatsonTBH, I had wanted DX to take care of making it look pretty :-/15:17
michaelforrestyeah I would think we would be doing that15:17
michaelforrestdo I have to select 'install' or 'try' ubuntu on gfxboot?15:17
michaelforrestooh mental.15:18
michaelforrest(I can see it now)15:18
michaelforrestyeah the actual spec is to have a language selector first, then the try/install screen15:18
michaelforrestcertainly no giant dropdown15:18
michaelforrestok there's no way this is landing in lucid15:18
cjwatsonoh, it is?  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lucid/GfxbootUpdate is not that specific15:19
cjwatsonjust says "will include language selection"15:19
cjwatsondo you have a better spec somewhere else with mockups?  I've been asking for visual design bits for this for months :-/15:19
michaelforrest(hold on - getting something)15:19
michaelforrestcjwatson: go here: http://use-case-mapper.canonical.com/specifications/0AU5sFuLRpCpBZGZra2pqY2pfMTAxZ25rcnBnNXY15:20
michaelforrestthat's my spec-in-progress15:20
cjwatsoncan I link to that from the public wiki (even if not everyone can actually see it)?15:20
michaelforrestyou have to have access to the google doc15:20
michaelforrestI could make the google doc public15:21
michaelforrestbut I don't think it's all public yet15:21
cjwatsonI don't mind, I just want somewhere to keep the link15:21
michaelforrestok that's fine15:21
evI was wondering about this...15:21
evdo we really want a greeter15:21
evI mean, if the spec is to provide the option after language selection, why not just start ubiquity, and have it provide that interface15:21
michaelforrestev: I would be fine with taht15:21
cjwatsonthat's fine for installation but doesn't work for the live session15:22
evexiting back to the live session like it does on crash when the "try ubuntu" option is selected15:22
michaelforrestyeah I  thought there was some technical reason we can't15:22
cjwatsongoing through ubiquity just for language selection for the live session seems really weird to me15:22
michaelforrestcjwatson: maybe weird from a technical perspective— would it make any difference to a normal user though?15:23
michaelforrestcjwatson: and it sounds like it might make life easier15:23
michaelforresti.e. not having to involve dx15:23
cjwatsonI actually thought I meant that it would look weird15:23
michaelforrestbecause it would say "Install" at the top?15:23
cjwatsonwell, the whole interface is oriented towards installation15:24
cjwatsonand anyone who's done it before (or seen it in one of the many books that has installer screenshots) might recognise that as the installer and panic15:24
cjwatsonor so it seems to me ...15:24
michaelforrestI don't think that would necessarily be a problem15:25
michaelforrestespecially if we called the window "Ubuntu"15:25
michaelforrestinstead of "Installer"15:25
michaelforrestit would just be a language selector and then a 'try or install' screen15:25
cjwatson(insert comment about derivative branding here, but ...)15:25
michaelforrestIt's a CD user's first experience15:26
michaelforrestok so I think evan is right15:26
evmy only concern with what I'm suggesting is going from the live CD desktop back to the installer15:26
michaelforrestwhat happens then?15:26
evwell, I'm wondering how we approach that.  Do we simply restart the session?15:27
cjwatsonwe could still make it controlled by that boot option, so that the "Try Ubuntu" button only appears if you're in the boot flow15:27
cjwatsonand then going from the live CD desktop to the installer is just starting it in a window, as before15:27
cjwatsondo you mean going from the installer to the live CD desktop?15:27
michaelforrestoh right I see15:27
evlive CD desktop to the installer, how do we get rid of gnome panel and friends15:27
michaelforrestyeah don't15:28
evoh, cool15:28
michaelforrestit's cool that you can still do stuff while it's installing15:28
evI like simple solutions15:28
michaelforrestfirst thing I liked about ubuntu :)15:28
cjwatsonMark explicitly asked for that, way back in Montreal15:28
cjwatson(er - the summit for DappeR)15:28
michaelforrestso we're adding the language selector / try+install to ubiquity, and then filtering those screens unless we're in the 'boot flow'?15:29
cjwatsonthe language selector's already there, which saves some work15:29
cjwatsonI think what ev is suggesting is to add a "Try Ubuntu without installing" button to the language selection screen?15:29
cjwatsonit wouldn't offer keyboard selection, but that's probably OK since it's accessible in System -> Preferences15:29
michaelforrestno we'll have a language selection screen on its own, then a try/install screen15:30
evactually, I'm not suggesting any changes to this particular part of the design spec15:30
cjwatsonok, I suppose that's workable, as long as it's conditional so that it only happens when we're in this workflow15:30
evwas just suggesting that its implementation did not need a custom gdm greeter15:30
michaelforrestthe design will be the same - we're talking about the implementation15:30
michaelforrestso happy about that 20px padding, by the way :)15:31
cjwatsonev: so you're saying that ubiquity's language page could be the implementation of the language selector in this specification, right?15:31
cjwatsonmichaelforrest: I bet netbook users aren't ;-)15:31
michaelforrestyeah I've been trying to test it on a netbook15:31
michaelforrestwith no joy :(15:31
cjwatsonwe were already at the very edge of the screen limits on a number of systems15:31
evthat the live CD boots straight into the ubiquity-only session with the new design15:31
cjwatsonok, and then an optional plugin on the page after the language selector?15:32
michaelforresthmm - okay I'm talking to otto again - he is saying 'I hope they didn't make the window bigger instead of making the content smaller'15:33
michaelforrest(re: padding)15:33
ev...I don't recall the request being phrased in that way15:33
cjwatsonmichaelforrest: BTW (UX spec) how is the user supposed to do advanced partitioning when they haven't set up their keyboard yet?15:33
michaelforrestno it wasn't15:33
michaelforrestcjwatson: this is why I asked you for feedback before xmas15:34
evcjwatson: surely you can do it with the mouse15:34
michaelforrestI am glad you are now looking at it15:34
evunless you have some odd mountpoitns15:34
cjwatsonmichaelforrest: before xmas, I was in a deathmarch customer project which was occupying about 200% of my work time - I was literally working 16-hour days for weeks at a stretch15:34
michaelforrestcjwatson: have a look at http://junction.local/specifications/0AU5sFuLRpCpBZGZra2pqY2pfMTAxZ25rcnBnNXY/use_cases/6_315:34
michaelforrestsure, not a problem15:34
cjwatsonev: certainly in general it accepts keyboard input15:34
evfair point15:35
michaelforrestI have thought about it though, trust me - have a look at use case 6.315:35
cjwatsonmichaelforrest: I can't see junction.local :)15:35
evs/junction.local/use-case-mapper.canonical.com/, I think15:35
michaelforrestI didn't include a keyboard step in the variation (2.b) but I imagined if they REALLY needed to set up the keyboard, then it's in the dropdown15:36
cjwatsonah, I see what you mean now15:36
michaelforrestby the way - I have an interactive mockup of the partition tool now15:36
evmichaelforrest: me too :)15:36
michaelforrestI just need to get it packaged (Adobe Air packaged - not proper packaged ;))15:36
evvery keen to see the differences between ours, as I'm curious if you used any kind of standard selection hints15:37
michaelforrestand also I think we decided not to throw up gparted after all - unless this clarification changes that?15:37
cjwatsonI'm also a bit concerned about deferring full locale setup to first boot15:37
cjwatsongparted die die die15:37
evthe default gnome way of putting a brown background on the item is quite ugly with a green/orange/red box in front of it15:37
michaelforrestok if we hate gparted, I can accomodate that :)15:37
cjwatsonwe used to use gparted in the installer, in dapper15:37
cjwatsonit was a nightmare15:37
cjwatsonlikewise qtparted15:38
evwe agreed to replace gparted with throwing up the advanced partitioning page in a window15:38
evat the sprint, if memory serves15:38
cjwatsonyeah, I think so15:38
michaelforrestok — I was just trying to help you only have to maintain one partitioning tool15:38
evthough my question was, if the user runs through that, does it skip past the automatic partitioner15:38
michaelforrestyeah that's right - I need to update the spec15:38
cjwatsonwe only have to maintain one partitioning tool right now :)15:38
evI imagine it would have to15:38
cjwatsongparted maintains itself and we don't involve it in the installer workflow15:38
michaelforrestso shouldn't gparted just go in the bin and we give people the 'advanced partitioner' then?15:39
michaelforrestor should I just shut up and not try to understand..15:39
michaelforrest(I mean on the desktop)15:39
cjwatsonso mostly that would sort of be my vote except that the advanced partitioner isn't really set up to be a standalone desktop app15:40
evpartman isn't in general15:40
cjwatsonit has some expectations which hold well during installation, but not so much outside that15:40
michaelforrestok so ev - about the window size - if it's already to the limit without the padding, then we need to make the content smaller to accommodate the padding15:41
cjwatsongparted and partman both use the same core partitioning backend, but they have different business logic on top of it which is optimised for different purposes15:41
evmichaelforrest: uhm, easier said than done.15:43
michaelforrestev: sorry that wasn't really clear before  - I didn't really think about it - but it was pretty obvious to otto, and he knows about that sort of thing..15:43
michaelforrestyeah I imagine so15:43
michaelforrestbut we need to do it15:43
michaelforrestrun a script on the gtk xml?15:43
evsure, I'll see what I can do, but it's going to be difficult to shave 20px off each side, so I'm not making any promises15:43
michaelforrestto avoid fiddling with glade ?15:43
cjwatsonthere's no absolute positioning or sizing in there15:43
evit's a matter of having too much content15:44
evthe text on the user setup page, for example, takes up a lot of space15:44
michaelforrestI'm sure you can fit it in15:44
cjwatsonthis would be the second or third attempt to squash things down, I think15:45
michaelforrestfrom a design perspective, it's a major difference in how professional it looks15:45
michaelforrestev there is more than enough space on the user setup page judging from the screenshot I'm looking at15:45
cjwatsonmichaelforrest: the thing is that the notebook format (and general sanity - we don't want to be growing and shrinking the window in the middle) means that the installer grows to the size of the largest page15:46
evhrm, indeed15:46
evI could have sworn that was where it grows though15:46
michaelforrestcjwatson: yeah I'm aware of that15:47
evI'll look into it and see what I can shave off15:47
cjwatsonmight be horizontal growth on one page and vertical growth on another?  I'm not sure how smart gtk is ...15:47
evgtk, smart, hah15:47
cjwatsoncould be worse, could be qtdesigner *shudder*15:47
evbut indeed, I'll watch out for that15:47
evoh god15:47
michaelforrestI am currently writing a spec for a glade-style tool..15:48
michaelforrestif I have to build it myself, I will...15:48
evmichaelforrest: while I have you here...15:48
evWhat are your thoughts on the following for the "unable to install restricted extras (dvd, mp3, flash) during install because we didn't have a network connection" scenario.  On first boot you get the following window:15:48
evand if you click run this action now, you get:15:48
evThis is similar to how incomplete language support is handled.  That is, when you do an install with a language that we don't include langpacks for on the CD (because they take up way too much space), you see an update-manager notification that tells you:15:48
evThe language support files for your selected language seem to be incomplete.15:48
ev You can install the missing components by clicking on "Run this action now"15:48
ev and follow the instructions. An active internet connection is required.15:48
ev If you would like to do this at a later time, please use "System ->15:48
ev Administration -> Language Support" instead.15:48
evcjwatson: if you have any thoughts as well, I'm keen to hear them15:49
michaelforrestok the language needs to change a lot15:49
evit was a quick mock up15:49
cjwatsonev: technically I think it's fine, I'll defer to Michael on the design obv.15:49
evI'm more concerned about the workflow15:49
michaelforrestI would like to unify any post-installation steps into one place if at all possible15:50
cjwatsonif we don't have a network connection during install, then we need to ask later, and *right now, this release* we only really have one way to do that15:50
michaelforrestbut I would want to talk to mpt / johnlea about how to do this15:50
cjwatsonindependent of future first-boot work15:50
cjwatsonassuming you're talking about lucid here ...15:50
evyeah, lucid15:50
michaelforrestev: I would kinda like to just go ahead and install it in the background silently (ducks)15:51
evI'm keen to get something in place, so Steve Langasek doesn't laugh hysterically at me when I ask to land this.15:51
evwell, this is for the case where we don't have a network connection15:51
evand thus cannot do it until post-install, when a network connection is established15:51
michaelforrestyeah so it's no help popping it up before an internet connection is available15:51
evand as far as installing it in the background, I think Amanda might take issue with that :)15:52
michaelforrestchrome installed a load of new shit in the background without asking me! crazy. whatever will they do next.15:52
michaelforrestI can't say I was that impressed ;)15:52
evmichaelforrest: ah, indeed, though our current stack makes that difficult unless we're trying to wget http://www.ubuntu.com/am_I_online in a cron job15:52
michaelforrestso on first network connection, it's gonna check for updates and there's gonna be that {!} icon15:53
evon first boot, regardless of network connection, the first mentioned window will show up15:53
michaelforrestis that how it works? or is the update check only on a cron job?15:53
michaelforrestyeah I don't want anything popping up like that15:53
michaelforrestbut can we roll it into the first update process?15:53
cjwatsonI think it's a cron job15:53
cjwatsonI would love to have a way to queue something for the next time apt runs15:54
michaelforrestWe're always going to want to install updates on the first install right?15:54
cjwatsonI've been wishing for that for about 5 years15:54
michaelforrestso why can't we make it check for updates on first network connection?15:54
cjwatsonit would be very handy for language packs15:54
evindeed, I think this very much mirrors the langpack case15:54
cjwatsonso first time you connect to the network, it automatically starts downloading stuff to make sure that you can't use the network straight away? :-)15:55
michaelforrestI'd like to just roll everything into that process - language packs, updates, restricted extras15:55
michaelforrestno - it says 'updates are available - it is recommended that you install these now'15:55
cjwatsonthe "do I have any updates" download is quite big in itself15:55
michaelforrestreally? why?15:55
cjwatsondownloads all the Packages files ...15:56
cjwatsonwhy> because we have a lot of packages in Ubuntu15:56
evwhich would be very unfortunate if you're on a 3G dongle and it runs15:56
michaelforrestanyway I think it's a safe assumption that on first boot, the user needs to install updates, so we don't necessarily need to check15:56
michaelforrestam I wrong?15:56
michaelforrestno :)15:56
cjwatsonmy concern is basically that we're putting more and more cute things in the way of the user playing with their new toy15:57
michaelforrestwe're not!15:57
cjwatsonI think updates should be later15:57
michaelforrestwe're making sure the toy is ready before they start trying to play with ti!15:57
evlets not confuse updates with what we're trying to do here15:57
cjwatsonthe toy is ready upon installation15:57
evI think it's the wrong language15:57
michaelforrestnot to watch youtube videos15:57
michaelforrestnot to listen to mp3s15:57
michaelforrestthese are REALLY important use cases15:58
evto be clear, we're talking about a set of packages that need to be installed, not updated15:58
cjwatsonright, installation is a different thing15:58
michaelforrestsure - so we don't have to call it 'updates'15:58
evubuntu-restricted-extras, language-pack-$LL, ...15:58
cjwatsoninstalling updates takes HOURS15:58
cjwatsonor can easily do15:58
michaelforrestthis is a problem. it also affects software center15:59
michaelforrest(I am going to correct that to *centre, as we probably all agree on that spelling)15:59
michaelforrestI think I need to work with people to get the first-use use cases formalised16:00
michaelforrestev - don't do this 'restricted extras not yet available' thing - just don't do anything if there wasn't network for now16:01
evmichaelforrest: isn't that more confusing?  We've asked the user if they want to add this package, they've said yes, and we haven't installed it16:01
michaelforrestI mean - don't ask if there's no network during install16:02
evor are you suggesting that we make showing this page conditional on wget http://www.ubuntu.com/am_I_online working?16:02
cjwatsonI really want to get pdiffs landed so that incremental checks for updates are quicker, but the last time I tried, it got derailed into a bluesky discussion of how to redesign the entire archive, which was a bit unhelpful16:02
michaelforrestyeah basically. for now.16:02
evah, okay16:02
cjwatsonbut I suppose incrementals aren't so important here16:02
mptev, cjwatson: michaelforrest and I had a chat about the partitioner feedback stuff. It was partly a miscommunication and partly me just being clingy. :-) What cjwatson summed up in the bug report we're both happy with.16:05
evsoftware-center could make the assumption that anyone passing a list of packages to be installed knew they would be in the cache after an update, and do both an update and install if and only if the user presses yes on the "there are more packages that need to be installed to complete the Ubuntu set up." question16:06
evmpt: lovely16:06
cjwatsonmpt: great, thanks16:08
michaelforresthow big are security updates?16:08
michaelforrestusually? if there is a usually?16:09
mptmichaelforrest, it increases steadily based on how long it's been since that version of Ubuntu was released16:10
mpte.g. if you installed 9.10 now, it would be ... a couple of hundred MB, I think16:11
mpt(iirc, from doing it a couple of weeks ago)16:11
michaelforrestright ok16:11
mptwhereas if you did it back in November, it would be just a few MB16:11
michaelforrestwe're wondering about having a rationalised updates screen with a list like16:11
michaelforrest- proprietary drivers / restricted extras  [29Mb]16:11
michaelforrest    - security [100MB]16:11
michaelforrest    - language [290KB]16:11
michaelforrest    - system updates [140MB] 16:11
michaelforrest    - application updates [200MB]16:11
michaelforrest(with selective updates , and this list, being the second choice)16:12
michaelforrest(made up numbers, of course !)16:12
mptyeah, it would be nice to say "oh, sheesh, I don't have enough quota to download all that now, let me get just the security updates"16:12
michaelforrestI would like to put something much nicer than 'proprietary drivers / restricted extras' :)16:13
michaelforrestI think if we're prepared to flash up 'updates are available' on a regular basis, then we should be happy to pop up a dialog box like this when the internet first becomes available16:14
michaelforrestI'm going to write some use cases for first-login and we can discuss them in our tuesday desktop design team meeting16:15
michaelforrestcjwatson: what is the first thing you do after  you install ubuntu ?16:16
cjwatsonstart a terminal window and ssh :-)16:19
cjwatsonprobably install a few packages I know I want16:19
cjwatsonand I guess I start a web browser, though think blogs rather than youtube in my case16:20
michaelforrestyou're use case #1.16:22
michaelforrest(well - 5.1)16:22
evmichaelforrest: by the way, this is what I've come up with so far for the automatic partitioner working off the design spec: <http://people.canonical.com/~evand/tmp/automatic-paritioner.png>.  Could I perhaps have access to that AIR package, so I can bring it more in line with what you're looking for over the weekend, should I find some spare time?16:22
michaelforrestok lemme have a crack at that now16:23
michaelforrestexciting to see it already though!16:23
cjwatsonmichaelforrest: so the one thing left unresolved by the above discussion of the installation flow is how we represent that you can press a key to get at the full boot menu16:23
evthe redesign excites me, so I worked on it on the plane to/from Pycon.16:24
michaelforrestcjwatson: yes that is true.16:24
michaelforrestev :)16:24
cjwatsonI wonder if there are any stock icons showing a keyboard key16:24
michaelforrestcjwatson: ok - so I am wondering if we should show anything. it's a very complex piece of information to attempt to convey graphically16:24
michaelforrestcjwatson: apple don't mention anything about specialised boot options - you find out about them on forums. also, we could put something in the CD inlay16:25
michaelforrestwe've had a brainstorm, including contributions from our resident anthropologist16:26
cjwatsonI don't mind that so much, but I would like to have some indication of when you need to press the key (this is a major flaw with Macs)16:26
michaelforrestthe tricky bit is to say 'you can press a key here' without saying 'please press a key'16:26
cjwatsoneven if that's just an Ubuntu logo or something16:26
cjwatsonthe Mac problem is that by the time you see anything other than a grey screen, it's too late :)16:27
michaelforrestso I think this is information that is of interest to technical users and people with particular accessibility issues16:28
michaelforrestand hopefully nobody else will ever need to know16:28
michaelforrestI would like to think that technical users will know how to get help16:28
michaelforrestso the best suggestion we had was to put the accessibility icon there16:28
michaelforrestI think that makes the right trade off of 'normal people won't press it', without excluding people who need it for accessibility reasons16:29
michaelforrestwhat do you think?16:29
cjwatsonhmm, I prefer the Ubuntu logo I think16:30
cjwatsonit doesn't invite people to press a key16:31
cjwatsonsomething about using the accessibility icon for this doesn't sit right with me, I'm not quite sure what16:32
michaelforrestit's that it's not 100% accurate, probably :)16:32
cjwatsonhmm, no16:32
michaelforresthowever, I think it works perfectly if one allows artistic license..16:32
cjwatsonhmm, the accessibility icon isn't the wheelchair logo any more is it?16:33
michaelforrestno it's that arms-out man16:33
cjwatsondo you mean the one that's next to Universal Access?16:34
cjwatsonright, that one16:34
michaelforrestwhich actually feels more apt16:34
cjwatsonthat feels better, I think there was something about Ubuntu displaying an icon normally used on toilets as it booted that I didn't like :)16:34
cjwatsoncentre of the screen, or off in a corner?16:35
cjwatsonmight be worth greyscaling it?16:35
michaelforrestsomething like in this first pic http://use-case-mapper.canonical.com/specifications/0AU5sFuLRpCpBZGZra2pqY2pfMTAxZ25rcnBnNXY/use_cases/6_116:35
michaelforrestthe icon instead of the text16:35
michaelforrestso in a grey band along the bottom16:35
michaelforrestor a lower-contrast band16:36
michaelforrestif we're on black16:36
cjwatsonremember that by the time the logo and the boot progress bar appear, it's too late16:36
cjwatsonthough I could certainly display the logo16:36
cjwatsonthat looks like a spinner in the middle though?16:36
michaelforrestcan't we put the logo on that screen ?16:36
cjwatsonwe're on black, yeah16:36
cjwatsonI can display the logo certainly, it was just the thing that looks like a spinner that confused me16:37
michaelforrestyeah sorry - I guess that's the next screen then16:37
michaelforrestor whatever we have. it's meant to be abstracted from the design16:37
* cjwatson can't afford too much abstraction at the moment :)16:37
cjwatsonok, I think I can do that16:38
cjwatsonnot sure what a lower-contrast band on a black background means though16:38
michaelforrestyeah I have a new photoshop document open to help de-abstractify.16:38
michaelforrestcjwatson: where do you suppose I might find an icon with a picture of a keyboard on it?16:58
cjwatsonSystem -> Preferences?17:01
ogralocate keyboard |grep png17:02
ograshould give you plenty17:02
cjwatsonnot sure they're very *good* icons, but ...17:02
michaelforrestok cjwatson- basically, otto is looking at this next week17:24
michaelforrestwe have a guy in to help with icons17:24
michaelforrestmy efforts, sadly, are rubbish.17:24
michaelforrestso I'm going to focus on getting evan his installer air demo17:25
cjwatsonhow about I go ahead with the accessibility icon thing17:26
cjwatsonit seems workable enough17:26
cjwatsonI can't put the icon in place until I have something I can land as the default workflow for lucid anyway, of course17:26
michaelforrestcjwatson:  go ahead with the accessibility icon thing. we'll see how it turns out.21:06
cjwatsonmichaelforrest: ok, cool.  thanks.21:07
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