humphreybcokay, what needs to be done?01:11
humphreybci've got all afternoon to do stuff, give me some things that need to be done :D01:12
humphreybci might start designing the ubuntumanual website01:47
ubuntujenkinssounds like a plan :-)01:53
humphreybcman it's been so long since i did web design02:25
ubuntujenkinsI haven't done it for 4 years, dreamwever at gcse02:26
ubuntujenkinshumphreybc what are your thoughts on changing the user name from quickshot to ubuntu-manual?03:01
humphreybci think we should leave it as quickshot, we want to design it so that other projects can use it in the future03:01
ubuntujenkinsfair enough I just thought it would look better in the manual. you don't know how to a sign icons to windows in glade?03:02
humphreybcno idea :P03:04
ubuntujenkinsmy branch as nearly full resolution change working in python windows and all one tiny bit to add before wider testing.03:05
ubuntujenkinsI say tiny it may take days03:05
humphreybcdoes anyone know why my photoshop has decided everything should be in grayscale?03:12
humphreybci'm trying to choose some green for the download button but it's only giving grayscale03:13
ubuntujenkinsI don't use photoshop sorry03:13
humphreybcfirst mockup of our website: http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/4393245991/sizes/o/03:25
humphreybckeep it quiet for now please people, don't want to let too many people know until we have a better mockup03:25
humphreybcmockup #2: http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/4393304657/sizes/o/03:53
humphreybc#3 - i've just tweaked some small stuff http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/4394088352/sizes/o/04:02
humphreybcokay the files are in the branch now. i've also put the source .psd files too (yes I use photoshop, get over it)04:11
humphreybchey, who's around at the moment?08:01
godbykhumphreybc: I'm here.08:18
humphreybcgodbyk: did you see the website mockup?08:18
godbykI glanced at it.08:19
humphreybcokay, i think i've almost finished the design part of it08:20
humphreybci need some feedback though08:21
godbykhumphreybc: what kind of feedback are you looking for?08:21
humphreybcmainly layout feedback08:22
humphreybcand also feedback on the process on the main page08:22
humphreybcie, step order, combo boxes or bullet points etc08:22
godbyklet's see..08:23
humphreybcclick on "all sizes" to see the bigger verson08:24
humphreybcversion* at 100%08:24
godbykso it looks like if I were to go to www.ubuntu-manual.org, that I would see the home.png page, is that right?08:24
humphreybcand also check out the "about" page - which is an idea of what the content pages will be http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/4394482178/in/photostream/08:24
humphreybcyes indeedy08:24
godbykI would move a lot of the 'about page' content to the home page.08:25
godbykand put a prominent download button on that page.08:25
humphreybchmm, true, but i'm working on the assumption that most people know about it already08:25
godbykthe download button would default to the latest edition and the detected language.08:25
godbykthere would be a small link below the button that said 'other editions' or somesuch that leads to the current home.png page you have, where they can select a different version and language.08:25
humphreybcbut they might not want to download their detected language, if they're on a shared computer, or someone elses, or at an internet cafe08:26
humphreybcah okay08:26
humphreybcthe reason i have given so much choice so far is to make it ready for when we actually have other versions in the future for Xubuntu/Kubuntu etc08:26
godbyksure.. and that page looks fine for a 'download whatever version you want' page.08:27
humphreybcso you think we need more "about" on the home page?08:27
godbykbut I think in the general case, most people will want to download the latest edition in their own language.08:27
godbykI would take the about page, split the 'about the project' section into two columns..08:27
godbykthe current para can sit in the first column.08:27
godbykthe second column would contain just a Download button and a link to select alternative versions.08:28
godbykthe link would take them to the home.png sketch where they can pick their options.08:28
humphreybci wouldn't lay it out in two columns though08:28
godbykthat way, when they go to ubuntu-manual.org (or whatever), they can get a quick overview of what it is they're downloading.08:28
humphreybchow about have the page look like the current home.png page, but instead of the questions we have the "features" bullet points, then a download button with the link. in the second column there is the image08:29
humphreybcthe "collage" of pictures will eventually actually be a collage of title pages for each version08:29
godbykI'd prominently place the download button toward the top of the page where it's easy for people to find.08:30
humphreybcbut when our project actually does produce a Kubuntu Manual, and a Xubuntu manual etc.. what will the download button on the front page do? just download the ubuntu one by default?08:30
humphreybcyeah but a huge green embossed button will stand out anywhere on a page with a gray and white colour scheme08:30
godbykunless I have to scroll to read it.08:31
godbykI don't want to have to scroll through bullet points to get to the download.08:31
godbykSome examples:08:31
humphreybcokay i'll make another mockup with a layout similar to that08:32
godbykyou're right in that most people will probably know what they're getting when they come to our site.08:32
godbykso we should give them a download button right off the bat.08:32
humphreybcthe thing with our stuff is that eventually we'll have multiple products08:32
humphreybcand we can't force them to look for a small link to get the other ones08:33
godbykbut we should also provide some text explaining what's going on to those who found the site via google or a link from their grandson or whatnot.08:33
humphreybci was thinking of moving the about link to the left side of the menu bar08:33
godbykwell, we can deal with that when the time comes. :-)08:33
humphreybcnext to home08:33
godbykthe sites I've been linking to all have large download buttons up-front (with links to other options in case they mis-detected something or you just want to download an alternative version), and also explain what their project is about briefly.08:35
humphreybcrighto i've got a plan in my head on how to shuffle stuff, give me an hour or so and i'll come back to ya :P08:36
godbyklooks like ubuntu has updated their site recently, too: http://www.ubuntu.com/08:36
godbykfair enough. :-)08:37
godbykquick sketches are fine, too.  doesn't have to be pixel-perfect.08:37
humphreybci like pixel perfect08:38
humphreybcmakes it easy for the HTML guys to slice and make into a site08:38
humphreybci would do the HTML stuff myself but i've forgotten, and i don't have dreamweaver which i learnt on08:38
godbykwell, in the end it's better, but for testing designs, it's not required.08:39
godbyk(especially if we're going to just throw most of the designs away)08:39
humphreybcwe're not going to throw them away!08:40
humphreybcwhat do you think of the wording in the feature list?08:40
humphreybcthe docs team are going to hate us btw08:41
godbykwhy will they hate us?08:41
humphreybcbecause we're going to have this amazing website promoting our product08:41
humphreybcbecause we're ultimately doing a better job than them, and they're going to see our feature list and bork because they have none of that08:41
humphreybcbut that's something to worry about later P08:42
godbyk*shrug* they can always make a nice website, too. :-)08:43
godbykbtw, did you register a domain name?08:43
godbykFeature bullet points:08:43
godbyk* easy to understand -- I'd simplify the language a bit here (ironically)08:44
godbyk* compatible -- not much of a bragging point, and no one cares08:44
godbyk* flexible - we're not offering html5 yet, just pdf.  we can add this back if/when we offer html5 or other formats08:44
godbyk* pictures -- an okay selling point (depending on how our screenshots turn out), but I'd clean up the language a bit08:45
humphreybchaven't done a domain name yet, should do that very soon08:45
godbyk* all in one place -- kind of a odd selling point. might be better if it were phrased differently, not sure.08:45
godbyk* dozens of languages -- each reader only really cares about one language -- their own. phrase this to say, 'it's in your language' or something to that effect08:46
godbyk* gpl licensing -- actually, we're using CC-BY-SA licensing, but I'd phrase it more as 'you're allowed to copy it and give it to your friends'08:46
godbyk* no cost -- this should possibly be further up the list. and it's okay to say 'free', since it meets all the definitions of that word.08:47
godbykhaving said all that, I wouldn't fret about the text so much right this second.. once it's in html we can edit that easily.08:47
godbykonce we have the text written, we can sic the translators on it and have a multilingual site, too.08:48
godbyk(so avoid putting text in graphics wherever possible.. it'll make life easier for translation.)08:48
humphreybcyeah true08:53
humphreybcdo you like the bullet points?08:53
humphreybcit looks okay without them08:53
godbykoh, the bullets themselves?  I think they're unnecessary.08:53
godbykthe bold text introduces each point well enough.08:53
humphreybcgodbyk: http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/4393796059/sizes/o/08:59
godbykhumphreybc: better. it's a little odd having to 'read past' the cover images to get to the actual text though.09:00
godbykwould it look better if the covers were on the right?09:00
humphreybctrue, but banshee does that on their site09:00
godbykinstead of 'alternative downloads' at the top, I'd just say 'downloads'.09:01
humphreybcyeah good point09:01
humphreybci've been trying to decide whether we should have links to the project page/launchpad/planet UM/wiki etc on the page09:02
humphreybcwebsite* sorry09:02
humphreybcor just leave the end-user site completely separate from our project stuff09:02
godbykmaybe just put those links under the 'how you can help' page.09:02
godbykI don't think they need to clutter the front page.09:02
godbykreaders won't care about those links.09:02
godbykand the front page of the site is solely for the readers.09:02
godbykalso the text under the 'about the project' is focused more on the project team than on the manual itself.  I think the manual is more important (on this page).09:03
humphreybcyeah true09:03
godbykbasically, you're telling me why I want to download the manual.09:04
godbykI don't care if trained monkeys wrote it. :)09:04
humphreybci've noticed that our wiki is crap for information on the product itself :P09:04
godbyktrue.. but that's kind of okay for now.09:07
godbykit does need to be cleaned up and updated though.09:07
godbyksome of that's my fault.  I haven't done a good job with keeping the latex/style stuff up to speed.09:07
humphreybclol that's okay09:07
humphreybcthe wiki wasn't really designed to be the selling point for the end user09:07
humphreybchow's this: Getting Started with Ubuntu 10.04 is a comprehensive beginners guide for Ubuntu. It is written by and for users of Ubuntu and aims to help you make the most out of your new operating system.09:08
humphreybc"The manual is available in over 40 different languages and features over 200 pages of information written in a clear and concise style to make it easy for you to understand."09:09
humphreybcthat's just for the text to the right of the image09:09
godbykhey, thorwil!09:09
humphreybchey thorwil!09:09
godbyk"beginner's guide"09:10
godbykand the latter half of the second sentence sounds a bit funky.09:10
thorwilhumphreybc: how about just "... and helps you to make the most out of it."09:10
godbykI'll come back to it09:10
humphreybcthorwil: i've been busy mocking up our website, take a look: http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/4393810569/sizes/o/09:10
godbykinstead of "to make it easy for you to understand" just say "so that it's easy to understand" (or drop the phrase entirely)09:10
godbykthorwil: that sounds better.09:11
godbykthe 'new operating system' bit was weird.09:11
thorwilhumphreybc: no all lowercase for the navigation, please09:11
humphreybcthorwil: why not?09:12
humphreybci thought that was the "cool" thing to do :P09:12
thorwilhumphreybc: because a work of literacy is our context09:13
thorwilhumphreybc: see, it's wrong exactly because you think it would be the "cool thing" ;)09:13
humphreybcahh, i suppose you have a point then :P09:13
thorwilhumphreybc: you don't write titles in the document lowercase, so don't do it on the website, either09:14
humphreybckk, changed09:14
godbykthorwil: ha! not that I'd use the titles in our doc as a good example of *anything*!  <grin>09:14
thorwilhumphreybc: that header image will have to go. which likely means i have to offer an alternative. well, later, perhaps09:15
humphreybcwhat's wrong with the header image?09:15
thorwilhumphreybc: there are two reasons that will become apparent only in the near future09:16
thorwilhumphreybc: the sub-title has an odd layout and uses a font that has no connection to the style of the document09:16
humphreybcoh yeah, i know the subtitle is too funky for us :P09:16
thorwilhumphreybc: there's the old title page design embedded09:17
thorwilhumphreybc: finally it's just a pile of stuff09:17
godbykhumphreybc: plus, we'll want it probably align more closely with our title page design and other graphics.09:17
humphreybcwell, that's probably the best icon i've ever made, so you're welcome to go ahead and create a better one09:17
humphreybcbecause that's the limit of my icon making :P09:17
godbykalso if we can keep text out of graphics, we can translate it (relatively) easily.09:18
humphreybcI'm surprised neither of you have commented on the font yet...09:18
godbykwhich one?09:18
thorwilquoting myself: "and uses a font that has no connection to the style of the document"09:19
humphreybcit's Droid Sans09:19
humphreybcnicest font in the world09:19
humphreybcno no not that font09:19
humphreybci mean the one on the site09:19
humphreybcanyway thorwil, this is going to be the website for all of the team's products - not just "getting started with ubuntu 10.04" - that's only the first in a series of manuals09:19
humphreybcand each manual will have a different style, colour scheme etc09:20
godbykI think we can use the exact same fonts as we use in the manual.  I think they all allow for @font-face embedding.  Now whether we'd want to is another matter. I'm sure the hinting is miserable on many of 'em.09:20
humphreybci really really really like droid sans09:20
thorwilhumphreybc: http://troy-sobotka.blogspot.com/2008/07/why-droid-isnt-answer.html09:20
humphreybci know most computers don't have it, so we'd have to slice it09:20
humphreybcthorwil: answer for everything?09:20
godbyk'slice it'?09:20
thorwilhumphreybc: no, just read it09:21
humphreybcreading it, it's a pretty in depth analysis of a font o.O09:22
thorwilhumphreybc: regarding "and each manual will have a different style, colour scheme etc", i would really appreciate if you would take the design specification serious. this means it has to be changed if you disagree with something (after it has been discussed).09:23
humphreybcthe design specifications are just for the ubuntu manual, no?09:23
thorwilhumphreybc: what means just? it's the core09:24
humphreybcdoes "Features of our publications" make sense?09:24
humphreybcthorwil: for now we're only focussing on the ubuntu manual, right? but I am designing the website with the future in mind09:25
humphreybcand no doubt stuff like the target audience will change depending on each manual09:25
humphreybcfor example, if we make a "Ubuntu Developers Manual" we wouldn't be targeting the same people as we are at the moment09:25
godbykhumphreybc: I think for now, though, you'll get the best website for our manual if it's designed for our manual as it stands.09:25
godbykOtherwise you're designing for some future case that hasn't been analyzed yet.09:26
godbykand potentially compromising the current goals in the process.09:26
humphreybcokay that's a valid point09:26
thorwilhumphreybc: ah, if you mean different style applied to documents with different aim, that's fine, of course09:26
humphreybcthorwil: yep, that's exactly what i mean :P09:26
thorwilhumphreybc: i'm worried that you are too optimistic/ambitious, though09:26
humphreybcambition leads to good things, thorwil09:27
godbykthorwil: I'm worried that I have enough on my plate to ponder with just one manual at the moment! <grin>09:27
humphreybcdon't worry, it's not going to be a fast thing09:27
humphreybci'm not going to go "hey okay now we're going to make X, Y and Z manuals" after lucid09:27
godbykAs for the website, I'd suggest we focus on building the best site for this particular manual right now.09:28
godbykIf we write other manuals later, we can look at how that will affect the web design.09:28
humphreybcbut what I am doing is setting up a team that can produce quality documents for Ubuntu and its derivatives. our current project, the UBUNTU manual, is forming a basis for us to do a lot of testing on workflow and that sort of thing. we're also finding out what tools we need and developing them as we see fit09:28
humphreybcso when it comes to making other publications, we'll already have a tonne of stuff in place and it will be a lot easier09:29
godbykOtherwise, you'll be designing for some other audience than the one we're trying to attract. And that doesn't work too well.09:29
humphreybcthen what will happen is "The Ubuntu Manual Team" as we know it will take on a different name, and oversee the sub-teams who are in charge of the Ubuntu manual, the Kubuntu manual etc09:29
humphreybcgodbyk: sweet, that's cool09:29
godbykThat's all fine, but right now we have a pretty simple audience to appeal to. Why complicate that before we must?09:29
humphreybcyeah i know, well, i have actually designed it to follow our current stuff a bit - i haven't added in any blue or anything P09:30
humphreybc:P *09:30
humphreybci've based the design around login.ubuntu.com09:30
* godbyk likes blue. :)09:31
humphreybcgodbyk: do you find your android phone drops the wifi all the time and randomly switches to 3G?09:32
humphreybcapparently it is meant to turn off wifi when it goes to sleep/standby09:32
humphreybcto save battery09:32
godbykhumphreybc: My phone keeps the wifi connection without any problems (that I've noticed so far)09:32
humphreybcand then it downloads updates and emails on the data connection when it's in standby09:32
godbykbut it's usually plugged in when I'm at my desk.09:32
humphreybcsee the problem i was having is it would go to data, use up all my data downloading updates/emails and stuff, then when i went out of standby to use it, it wouldn't auto-reconnect to wifi09:33
humphreybci think it doesn't like our router too much09:33
humphreybcit used all of my 100mb monthly allowance the other day to download the 1.6 update09:33
humphreybcso anyway, i set it to "never" turn off wifi - but now it's using a tonne of battery.09:34
humphreybcnever win. :S09:34
humphreybcthorwil: other than your criticisms, have you got any good feedback?09:35
humphreybci must say, it looks a lot better now than before i got your guys feedback09:36
humphreybcis it just me, or does GIMP not have "blending options" at all? no drop shadows or anything?09:37
TommyBrunnNope. It doesn't have blending options or adjustment layers.09:37
* godbyk is quite content to remain ignorant of such matters.09:39
godbykI'm happy to leave that sort of graphics work to others, thanks.09:39
thorwilhumphreybc: background, nav-bar, padding are all alright in a general sense09:40
thorwilhumphreybc: the shading of the Download Now button makes no sense09:40
thorwiloh, wait, "good feedback" ...09:41
godbykthorwil: lol!09:41
thorwilhumphreybc: you should give creating mockups in inkscape a try09:41
godbykI do like inkscape.09:41
godbykI wish it had better text-handling stuff, though.09:42
humphreybcsee, that's why I use photoshop over GIMP09:42
godbyk(Although I've heard they've been adding features in that realm.)09:42
humphreybcnothing ever looks good without a good ol' drop shadow09:42
* humphreybc still hasn't got round to using inkscape09:42
TommyBrunnDrop shadows are a bitch to implement without CSS3 though.'09:42
humphreybcthe way I see it, I could try to use Inkscape or GIMP and come out with a much worse looking product - not because the programs are any worse than photoshop, but because I simply know how to use photoshop. Over time I would get better at Inkscape/GIMP - but why spend the time learning when photoshop works fine for me?09:43
humphreybcThis stuff was done on PS CS209:43
thorwilhumphreybc: photoshop vs gimp is an entirely different thing from either of them vs inkscape09:44
humphreybcyeah i know, but i'm just using those as examples09:44
humphreybcdo you guys think there is anything else we have to say on the home page?09:45
thorwilhumphreybc: does there have to be separate Home and Downloads?09:46
thorwilhumphreybc: where would Read_online go?09:47
humphreybcyep, godbyk and i discussed this before you arrived09:47
humphreybcwell we don't have an HTML5 version yet09:47
humphreybcbasically on the home page, the download button there would detect the system language and download the right PDF for you09:47
thorwilhumphreybc: "how you can help" could be "Get involved"09:47
humphreybcand the "alternative download options" link goes to the downloads page09:47
humphreybcwhere they can choose a different language if they want, or get a version optimized for printing09:48
humphreybcbecause the detection might be wrong if they're on a friends' computer, or at an internet cafe etc09:48
humphreybcshould we mention that it's FOSS somewhere on the front page?09:49
humphreybci suppose it says that in the "GPL licensing" feature item09:49
godbykhumphreybc: though it's not GPL, it's CC-BY-SA.09:50
godbykGPL = software, CC = text.09:50
humphreybcso i should change it to "CC licensing" ?09:50
humphreybci feel like we should have another section on the front page.... but i don't know what09:52
thorwilhumphreybc: you should first collect all information and options that have to be there09:53
humphreybcthorwil: you should know by now that i don't do things logically09:53
thorwilhumphreybc: than you order that into pages09:53
humphreybci need a new sentence for the "Easy to understand" feature thing09:54
thorwilhumphreybc: and if you end up thinking there should be something additional just because, you go play some computer games09:54
humphreybcthorwil: hehe, i don't play computer games, all i do is just work and work... O.o09:54
humphreybc"Easy to understand - step by step instructions and jargon free" ?09:55
humphreybcwe need to emphasize just how easy we make it09:55
thorwilstep by step in plain language?09:57
humphreybccan anyone think of more features of our manual?09:58
humphreybcgodbyk, until we have an HTML version of the manual, it won't be too hard to find some flash or java app that embeds PDF documents right?10:01
humphreybcwhat is the easiest way to say that we have a version for printing with two pages on one page?10:03
godbykhumphreybc: Er.. embedding PDFs sucks, in my opinion.10:03
humphreybcdouble-up or something?10:03
godbykThough most PDF viewers embed themselves into the browser (which I hate).10:03
godbykhumphreybc: You mean using the n-up option on their printer? Or what?10:04
humphreybcwell you know how we were going to do that thing where there are two pages on every page they print10:05
humphreybcso it uses half the amount of paper10:05
humphreybcand the margin notes become like a book10:05
godbykusually that's just an option you give to the printer when you go to print it.10:05
humphreybcwell we're going to assume our readers don't know that10:05
humphreybcmy mum certainly wouldn't10:06
humphreybcand she's going to be a perfect test case for this manual :P10:07
godbykOkay, we'll have to look into that then.10:07
humphreybcall i'm going to do is email her the link to www.ubuntu-manual.org and see if she can download it, open it, and actually start reading it where it makes sense10:07
humphreybcjeezus this bloody android wifi thing is bugging me10:08
humphreybci'm fiddling with router settings to see if i can fix it10:08
humphreybceven though i am sitting right beside the wireless router with 100% signal strength, it still drops it randomly and won't auto reconnect. sometimes it the android will say "no network connection" when in google maps/app store/gmail/facebook/gtalk etc... but the wifi is still connected10:09
humphreybcso godbyk, do you know what "beacon interval" "RTS/CTS threshold" "fragmentation threshold" and "DTIM" do?10:09
humphreybci thought it might have been a problem with authentication so i've changed from WPA2-PSK to WPA-PSK and also tried AES and TKIP but they don't seem to make a difference :S10:10
godbykno clue.10:10
humphreybci've also installed "wifi fixer" from the app store which apparently says it fixes wireless stuff10:10
godbyk(well some clue, but not enough that it'd help)10:11
humphreybcTommyBrunn: just saw your reply in the thread on UF10:16
humphreybcyou're probably going to have your hands full with quickshot10:16
humphreybcand because we don't really have anyone else working on it, and also because it's a higher priority, i'd prefer it if you stuck with quickshot :)10:17
zirodayhumphreybc: what firmware are you using?10:18
godbykhumphreybc, TommyBrunn: Just had a thought about the quickshot program..10:20
godbykfor taking shots of just a segment of the screen..10:20
godbykif we can start the program up with specific geometry (many X apps have provide command-line options for that), we can just take a full-screen shot and crop it automatically.10:21
humphreybcthat's a good idea, but how does the geometry work? does it go off resolution or percentages?10:22
humphreybcor are we going to all be running the same res10:22
humphreybcziroday: Android 1.6 on an HTC Magic10:22
godbykhumphreybc: run "xeyes --help"10:22
godbykit'll show you the -geometry option.10:22
godbykyou're going to be running the same res anyway.10:22
godbykbut the geometry option let's you set the window size and position.10:23
humphreybcyeah i saw that, 800x600 apparently. 800x600 would look terrible on anything other than 4:3 though?10:23
godbyksure, but the graphics will be fine.10:24
godbykjust the display on the monitor may look bad (if it's stretched)10:24
zirodayhumphreybc: oh, nothing custom?10:24
humphreybcziroday: haha nope, i only got this thing a few days ago, don't want to brick it or anything. haven't even looked into installing custom stuff on it10:25
humphreybci've seen a lot of people talking about rooting it, but i have no idea how to do that10:25
zirodayah, well in that case best answer is to probably ring up HTC. Don't expect anything spectacular however10:25
humphreybcgodbyk: so... what you see on the monitor (ie stretched windows) won't be what the image turns out to be?10:25
godbykhumphreybc: correct10:25
humphreybcziroday, i think changing to AES might have fixed it... not sure. it hasn't dropped in the last 10 minutes which is unusual.10:26
humphreybcgodbyk: aha, i had no idea. that makes sense10:26
zirodayhumphreybc: heh, I know in 2.x the wireless code is meant to be greatly improved, but I've only ever tried it on WEP here.10:26
humphreybci wish HTC would hurry the hell up and release 2.xx for the magic10:28
humphreybchow can you install 2.1 manually?10:28
humphreybcokay so now we just need to find a good web designer who can take my mockups, improve on them, and then make them into a website10:39
humphreybcI want to have an actual website working by the end of march for us to test10:39
humphreybcand on www.ubuntu-manual.org (which i'm buying now btw) I want a countdown timer to the 29th April10:39
humphreybcon the 29th April it'll go live about 12 hours before Lucid is released10:39
humphreybcand everyone can download the final manual :P10:40
godbykhumphreybc: let me know when you've got the domain name purchased, and I'll set up the hosting for it.10:41
* humphreybc wonders what's up with the people flaming me in the thread i posted: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=889417510:42
godbykfun times.10:45
godbykgotta love the ubuntu forums10:45
humphreybci mean what the hell10:45
humphreybci have like 28,000 karma and they guy says "maybe linux isn't for you"10:46
humphreybcsure buddy...10:46
humphreybcokay i just bought the domain name :)10:46
TommyBrunnI think it's because you mentioned slicing up the mockup and exporting it to dreamweaver. That just makes any web developer cringe.10:46
humphreybchow else is one supposed to get nice drop shadows and custom fonts onto a website?10:48
godbykcustom fonts == bad.10:49
TommyBrunnCustom fonts is just a no-no. You don't do that, unless you're catering to a very specific niche of people. Rather, you display that font for those who have it, a similar backup for those who don't, and a generic font that everyone has in case the person doesn't have the backup font either.10:49
godbykeither use @font-face or pick another font.10:49
godbyktext should be text, damn it.10:49
TommyBrunnDrop shadows can be made using CSS3 or javascript magic10:49
TommyBrunnOr using ugly hacks10:49
humphreybcslicing and importing into dreamweaver or HTML div tags is a much more elegant solution. for the main body text I would use the set fonts, but for stuff like the banner i'd use a sliced image10:50
humphreybcbut hey, i'm not an expert in web site creation10:50
TommyBrunnNo, seriously. It's not an elegant solution at all. Images should be used as a last resort, and from what I've seen of your mockup, very few elements would have to be made using images.10:51
humphreybcgodbyk i've got the domain name, what do you need?10:51
godbykI need my web panel to work! :-)10:51
godbykYou'll have to point the name servers to me.10:51
godbykset them to ns1.dreamhost.com, ns2.dreamohost.com, and ns3.dreamhost.com10:52
humphreybctheir control panel hates chrome10:52
humphreybcapparently it also hates firefox too O.o10:56
humphreybcmaybe it just hates ubuntu10:57
TommyBrunnWhere'd you buy it from10:57
humphreybcwas the cheapst at 9.99USD10:58
humphreybcit's sort of working but it's very slow10:58
humphreybcoh progress!10:59
humphreybcTommyBrunn: aplus.net11:01
humphreybcoh wait11:01
humphreybcdidn't scroll down11:01
humphreybcgodbyk: nameservers should be updated now11:01
godbykI'll get the site set up whenever http://panel.dreamhost.com works again.11:02
godbyk(down for maintenance at the moment, apparently.)11:02
godbykdo you have html for the site?11:02
humphreybci'll look for a countdown timer11:04
humphreybcgodbyk, try this: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/385624/11:06
godbykcountdown timers are pretty easy.11:07
humphreybcwell if you could just get a countdown timer up and running that looks nice11:09
humphreybcand maybe have our banner in there too11:09
humphreybcactually, godbyk, i'll do that for you11:15
humphreybcand send you the HTML file11:15
godbykhumphreybc: awesome.11:16
humphreybcyou've got enough to do without writing a silly countdown timer :P11:16
godbykI'm currently writing a build script.11:16
godbykhumphreybc: can you access https://panel.dreamhost.com/?11:17
humphreybcyour install script is really nice, btw11:17
humphreybcactually i wonder if it would be cool just to have the countdown11:21
humphreybcwith nothing else11:21
humphreybclike a viral thing11:21
godbykI don't see that being terribly viral. :)11:22
humphreybclol true11:23
humphreybcgodbyk, do you know any javascript?11:25
humphreybcall i want to do is center the text11:25
godbyka little bit11:25
godbykjust wrap the stuff you want centered in "<div style="text-align: center;"> TEXT GOES HERE </div>"11:25
TommyBrunnNo. Just add a css class to the text. That's the semantically correct way to do it. Like:11:27
TommyBrunn<p class="centered">Text goes here</p>11:27
TommyBrunnAnd in the CSS:11:27
TommyBrunn.centered {11:27
TommyBrunn    text-align:center;11:27
TommyBrunnSadly I don't think it works too well in internet explorer 6 (though I don't know if we're shooting for IE6 compatibility)11:27
TommyBrunnSorry about the spam11:27
humphreybci've got it centered by using11:28
humphreybc<div id="countbox" style="text-align: center;width: 100%; height: 1px;"></div>11:28
humphreybcbut now i just want to bump it down the screen a bit11:28
TommyBrunnUse line-height11:28
TommyBrunnLike line-height:1.5em;11:28
TommyBrunnUnless you want to move the entire box11:29
humphreybcmove the entire box11:29
TommyBrunnIn which case you'd use margin11:29
godbykor add padding/margin on the top11:29
TommyBrunntop-margin, specifically.11:29
humphreybcso top-padding: "1.5em"; or something?11:30
TommyBrunnUse margin rather than padding.11:30
humphreybc<div id="countbox" margin=20em; style="text-align: center;width: 100%; height: 1px;"></div> ?11:31
humphreybcsorry it's been forever since i did anything like this and i was never very good at it anyway11:32
godbyk<div id="countbox" style="text-align: center; top-margin: 20em;"> TEXT GOES HERE </div>11:33
godbyk(Not sure if it's top-margin or margin-top.)11:34
TommyBrunnIt would be a lot easier if you separated the markup and the styling. So that you have a CSS style sheet that you link to in the markup.11:34
godbyk(Been quite a while)11:34
humphreybcdo i really need a CSS style sheet for this?11:34
TommyBrunnIf you're doing more than just a timer, yeah11:34
TommyBrunnIf you're just working on the timer, I guess it doesn't really matter11:35
humphreybcthis is what i've got: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/385640/11:35
humphreybcbut it don't work :)11:35
humphreybcif i could just put it smack bang in the middle of the screen, both vertically and horizontally11:36
humphreybcand then maybe have a box around it and a light gray fill to match the website style when we finally reveal the site11:36
humphreybcthen that would be cool11:36
* humphreybc was supposed to watch a movie tonight but alas it's too late11:36
TommyBrunnGive me 10 minutes.11:36
TommyBrunnOr maybe 15, to be on the safe side11:37
godbykI haven't prettied this up *at all* yet.. but what other info would be helpful to report? http://kevin.godby.org/ubuntu-manual/builds/11:37
humphreybcTommy, thanks11:37
humphreybcawesome godbyk11:37
humphreybci don't think you need any more information11:38
humphreybcso this is a build script that you'll run on your computer?11:38
humphreybcor server?11:38
godbykit's a script I'll run on my computer.11:38
humphreybcand it automatically puts the compiled PDFs on your server?11:39
humphreybcso now translators who want to see their work don't have to install all the latex stuff11:39
humphreybcyou can just point them there :)11:39
godbykI'll probably set it up on my home server, so I don't have it dragging down the cpu on my desktop system.11:39
godbykthat's true, I s'pose.11:40
godbykI have to figure out how to automated it to run when there is new stuff in bzr.11:40
humphreybci'm still waiting for my home server to be reconnected. flatmate came home and moved the router up to his room because he doesn't have wireless.. so i had to buy him a wireless USB stick which hasn't arrived yet11:41
humphreybcgodbyk, how do the contents get translated?11:41
godbykwhat contents?11:41
humphreybcoh wait nevermind11:42
godbykthe magic of latex?11:42
humphreybcthey translate the chapter/section headers and latex builds them off that11:42
humphreybcforgot for a sec there11:42
humphreybcis there any language that has been more than 90% translated?11:42
humphreybcit's a bit depressing reading a danish manual where everything is in english except for the headers :P11:43
TommyBrunnhumphreybc: almost done. Just needs to be vertically centered as well, which is a little more complicated than horizontal centering.11:44
godbykhttps://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual and click on 'view all languages' at the bottom right11:44
humphreybcTommy, cool, thanks :D11:44
godbykyou can click on the status heading to sort by status11:44
ubuntujenkinsI think english uk and german are the best and spanish11:44
* humphreybc opens his 18th tab in chrome11:47
humphreybcwow go german11:48
ubuntujenkinshave we got a page for the quickshot branches yet?11:48
humphreybcnot yet11:49
humphreybcshould i create one now?11:49
ubuntujenkinswhen you have a moment it would be good, the pyhton is way out of my depth now and I can set up the branches an write the merging script11:49
humphreybci'm just setting up the project now11:50
ubuntujenkinsthanks :-)11:50
humphreybci'll see if i can make it a subproject of either ubuntu-manual or quickshot11:50
ubuntujenkinsIdealy ubuntu-manual11:50
humphreybcthat's what i'm going to true11:51
TommyBrunnhumphreybc: All done11:54
humphreybcTommyBrunn: nice!11:57
humphreybcgodbyk, see above **11:57
godbykgot it.11:58
humphreybcubuntujenkins: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-screenshots11:59
ubuntujenkinsthanks I will starts adding the branches12:00
humphreybcso i guess just make each branch the translation abbreviation12:00
humphreybclike es, ar, du, etc12:00
ubuntujenkinsyes it will be there will be a main as well12:00
godbykhumphreybc: that works best for me. :)12:00
humphreybcyeah that's what i thought :P12:01
humphreybcthen the URL for each will be something like https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual-screenshots/es ?12:01
ubuntujenkinsubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual-screenshots/main  is main apparently12:02
humphreybcwell we won't be using main12:02
humphreybcubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual-screenshots/es etc12:02
humphreybcyou could probably just delete main12:03
ubuntujenkinsI haven't made main yet12:03
ubuntujenkinswhich is easier fo compiling lots tranlated versions12:03
ubuntujenkinsstick to codes like es, de, ar but wouldn't getting them all in one go also be good if you wanted to compile lots of them12:04
humphreybci suppose yea12:06
humphreybcoh did anyone think about that idea i had for the progress bar?12:09
TommyBrunnWhat idea?12:10
godbykhumphreybc: I think estimating word count will be too difficult.12:14
godbykProbably better off just flagging each section as done or something.12:14
humphreybcTommyBrunn: I thought it would be neat if we could have a live progress bar of the manual, by taking an export of the current word count, and then estimating what the final word count would be, then working out a percentage12:16
humphreybcJoey at omgubuntu.co.uk said if we make one he'd put it on his website sidebar permanently, it would be a great way to raise awareness about our project12:16
humphreybcgodbyk: yeah you're probably right. well should I make one now and just update it manually?12:17
godbykyou can if you'd like.12:17
godbykmight help motivate those who still have stuff to write.12:17
godbykI'm curious as to how close we are to having everything written.12:17
humphreybchow far through do you think we are?12:17
TommyBrunnWell you could easily make a progressbar using javascript. The difficult part would be to get the word count and that.12:18
humphreybcabout 60%?12:18
godbyk(I haven't actually flipped through the manual since before the alpha release, I think!)12:18
ubuntujenkinswell there is still open offcice ubuntu one and rythambox to go on default apps12:18
humphreybci think we've got 6/10 chapters completed, more or less12:18
humphreybcsimple but i think it does the job12:33
godbykSo do you think we'll pull it off? :)12:33
humphreybci'll just change it whenever we make significant improvements :P12:33
godbykno need for the ellipses.12:33
humphreybcgodbyk if you could host it on your server at some permanent URL so I can give it to blogs etc12:33
humphreybcyou don't like the ellipses?12:33
godbykas soon as they finish dinking around with the panel, I'll set it up.12:34
godbykthey don't serve any purpose.12:34
godbykwow, it does take a while to download 2.5G and install it, doesn't it? :)12:34
godbyk(installing TL 2009 on my home server)12:34
humphreybcsuggestions for improvements?12:35
godbykis that percent bar actually 60%?   Looks closer to 50%.12:35
humphreybclol i'm not sure i'll check12:36
humphreybcit was actually 55, my bad12:36
humphreybcand godbyk, yeah i think we'll make it12:37
humphreybcnot 100% all translated with localized screenshots12:37
humphreybcbut i think we'll have a decent english manual, about 20 - 30 translated manuals, and perhaps 10 with localized screenshots12:38
humphreybcthe rest with english screenshots till we get around to doing them after lucid12:38
humphreybci'll stick it on our wiki now12:40
humphreybcfront page :P12:40
humphreybcso when you stick it on your server, email the link to it and i'll send it to joey12:41
humphreybchow far through the project are we? about halfway, right?12:42
humphreybcstarted in january, and we have to finish by the end of april... so that's four months. and it's just gone 1st march here12:43
humphreybcso we're halfway, and 60% completed12:43
humphreybcbuuut the writing freeze is in 18 days12:43
humphreybcso we're actually behind schedule12:43
humphreybcright tomorrow i'm going to do some writing12:43
humphreybcwow awesome, someone on UF actually created an HTML file and CSS style sheet for our site already12:49
humphreybcit looks good!12:49
humphreybci've invited them to join the project if they like, but if not I might just take what they've done and create the rest of the pages, using his one as a template12:50
godbykhumphreybc: cool12:53
TommyBrunnhumphreybc: I just saw that. It's pretty well done. The code needs a little work to validate, but it's a pretty good start.12:54
humphreybcyeah, it looks pretty12:54
humphreybci'll fiddle tomorrow and see if i can improve on it, then i'll start work on designing the other pages12:54
humphreybci'm pushing it into the branch12:54
humphreybcfeel free to have a play too :)12:55
TommyBrunnOne thing that bugs me is that the logo is taking up almost a third of the viewport. I'd make the space between the logo and the content smaller.12:55
humphreybci'm going to make the logo smaller12:56
humphreybcand the banner12:56
TommyBrunnOh, I just noticed something.12:56
humphreybcuh huh?12:56
TommyBrunnOh, nevermind. The CSS just looked very odd for a bit there, but after giving it some though, it doesn't really matter.12:57
* humphreybc just pushed the website work from UF user12:57
humphreybcTommy, it's all in the branch now under /website so if you did want to have some time away from python then you're more than welcome to have a fiddle :)12:58
humphreybcand with that i'm off to bed!12:58
thorwilgnark, major focus fail. not even the right machine!13:01
godbykthorwil: lol13:03
godbykthorwil: I did that earlier.  Ran 'sudo apt-get install BLAH' on my web server box -- which I have no sudo access to.13:03
godbykHope I didn't piss off any admins.13:03
godbykWebsite is up.. somewhat: http://ubuntu-manual.org/13:22
TommyBrunnI'm currently working on making the website validate, as well as become slightly easier to work with.13:23
TommyBrunnDoes your web hotel support PHP?13:23
godbykTommyBrunn: Yep.13:24
godbykIt's running PHP 5.13:24
godbykTommyBrunn: we need a cool favicon too. :)13:37
TommyBrunnI'll leave that to Ben.13:37
TommyBrunnHowever, I want to split the site into a few different php files, which can then be joined using $include_once(). That way the header can stay in one file, and all the subpages can just call on that file. However, doing so would require anyone who wants to fiddle with the design to be running a php-enabled server.13:38
TommyBrunnSo it might be best to wait until the design is final.13:39
godbykTommyBrunn: Are you still working on the site code?13:39
TommyBrunnI just pushed the latest revision.13:39
godbykI think we should either move the cover pages image to the right or wrap the covers and the about-the-manual section in a big div so that the features start below that block.13:40
dutchiewwow, you folks set up a website since yesterday morning13:42
godbykdutchie: :)13:44
godbykwell, humphreybc registered a domain name.13:44
godbykand I'm hosting it.13:44
godbykhe posted his site mockups on the ubuntu forums and someone gave him back some html and css.13:45
godbykdutchie: I've also been working on writing a build script that generates output like this: http://kevin.godby.org/ubuntu-manual/builds/13:45
godbyk(I haven't prettied any of it up yet.)13:45
dutchiewhy only those 5 languages?13:46
godbykCan you think of any more info that should be displayed?13:46
dutchieer, 613:46
godbykbecause I'm just testing and don't want to wait for all 40 languages to compile. :-)13:46
godbykso I just have the script stop after the first half dozen languages.13:46
dutchienah, just prettify13:46
godbykHey, TommyBrunn.. can you fix whatever is wrong with the footer?14:05
TommyBrunngodbyk: I just did14:05
TommyBrunnCheck the newest revision14:05
godbykTommyBrunn: Much better, thanks!14:08
godbykWe also need to splice up the Download button so we can replace the text that's on there.14:08
TommyBrunngodbyk: Yup. I don't have access to Photoshop at the moment, so I can't do it. But it shouldn't be very hard. I'll just add a link and style it to have the button as a background image.14:10
godbykTommyBrunn: well, we'll want the button to be able to vary in size.14:11
godbyk(we're going to translate it, so we don't know how big it'll need to be)14:11
TommyBrunnWill the website be translated, though?14:12
TommyBrunnEither way, the best option would probably be to simply make the button a sensible size. No language is going to have a word for "download" that's 130 characters long.14:13
godbykTommyBrunn: Probably at some point.14:14
godbykIt'd be nice if we can get it translated.14:14
TommyBrunngodbyk: I just had an idea about the download button. I'm just going to fire up my other computer, and see if I can create some magic.14:17
TommyBrunnOr at least make a functional button14:17
godbykTommyBrunn: There are easy ways of doing it.14:17
godbykgoogle for resizable css button and you'll find 'em.14:18
godbykbasically, the edges are graphics and the interior has a background graphic/color.14:18
TommyBrunnYeah, I'm going to do something similar to that.14:18
godbykthe interior can be any size, and the edges remain the same size.14:18
godbykdutchie: what's the translation template?14:23
dutchiegodbyk: the ubuntu-manual.pot file14:37
godbykI just saw an email about it and I hadn't seen an email like that before.14:38
ubuntujenkinsTommyBrunn when you get a moment can you have a look at my branch and my attempt of python. Thanks :-)14:48
TommyBrunnubuntujenkins: Alright. How about you sum up what functionality you've added.14:50
ubuntujenkinsTommyBrunn: My branch now installs disper if the user is using nvidia. It detects the users graphics card and makes the necessary window pop up. The resolution is changed on the click of the ok button. and the has you resolution changed correctly window appears.14:54
TommyBrunnAlright. Sweet. I'll take a look at it as soon as I can. If you feel up to it, you could merge the changes into main yourself.14:55
ubuntujenkinsThere is no log out in 15 seconds mechanism as I have no clue how to do it.14:55
dutchiesleep(15); logout()14:56
dutchieer, somthing like that14:56
ubuntujenkinsI can merge them but I would rather you checked it was in your preferred layout I did get #python josh and #ubuntu-app-devel to help. :-)14:57
komsasdutchie: why some traslated strings was removed from last update?14:57
ubuntujenkinsI don't want to do to much to make your course hard14:57
dutchiekomsas: because the update of translations and translation template were separated, at a guess14:57
dutchiekomsas: unless there was a small change that you missed14:57
ubuntujenkinsI tried time.sleep but it makes the windows grey out. (TommyBrunn)14:58
TommyBrunnYeah, that happens when the program goes idle.14:58
TommyBrunnThe only solution I know of requires multithreading, and we absolutely don't want to get involved with that.14:58
ubuntujenkinswe need it so that the user can click the "ok" button to stop them being logged out14:59
komsasdutchie: before translation template update 600 strings translated, now only ~200.15:01
dutchieit's been a bit of a while since I updated15:03
komsasdutchie: sorry not 600, 30015:03
TommyBrunnWhat the heck?!15:28
TommyBrunnI just tried to upload my latest changes to launchpad, but if you check the latest revision, those are not my changes. :S15:28
ubuntujenkinswhich branch?15:29
ubuntujenkinsits the translation stuff in there as well, did you do a pull before you commited?15:30
TommyBrunnBut the weirdest part is that my original changes aren't even in there.15:31
ubuntujenkinsweird \me asks dutchie if he has just done a merge with the translations?15:31
TommyBrunnOh, wait a minute15:32
godbykyour stuff is there under r342..15:32
TommyBrunnNow it says I've done two commits in the last 5 minutes15:32
TommyBrunnYeah, i just saw that.15:32
godbykthen you merged with dutchie's translations.15:32
godbykHere's that the build stuff looks like now: http://ubuntu-manual.org/builds/15:34
godbykI'm building all the translations as we speak, so that table may be bigger after a bit (when it's done compiling everything).15:34
ubuntujenkinsyou know the cover page is wrong on the arabic one right?15:35
ubuntujenkinslooks neat though easy to look to see what my writting looks like15:35
godbykubuntujenkins: The Arabic translation failed to compile, so the PDF is all kinds of messed up. :-)15:36
dutchiemaybe you should not show such PDFs15:36
ubuntujenkinsthought that would be the case just thought I would let you konw15:36
godbykdutchie: well, this page is more for me and the translators.15:37
godbyk(mostly me at the moment, so I can see what translations I still need to write code for.)15:37
dutchiestill, not sure what you gain from a PDF which didn't compile properly15:38
godbyksometimes it's easier to see where the hangup was by looking at the pdf than the log file.15:38
godbykalso, it doesn't really hurt anything, does it?15:39
dutchiesuppose not15:39
godbykI'm kind of curious to see how much the page count will differ for the various translations.15:39
godbykWe're up to 47 languages now, apparently.15:42
ubuntujenkinsthats good :-)15:43
* ubuntujenkins looks to see which new ones there are15:43
godbykI haven't got all the existing ones to work yet and they just keep translating into new languages! :-)15:43
godbykAll the translations should be there now.15:54
ubuntujenkinsnice :)15:54
* issyl0 bzr pull latest revisions16:02
godbykdutchie: you around?17:01
godbykdutchie: Is there a way I can flag the \date and \frontcover commands so that the translators stop translating them? :)17:01
dutchiethe command itself or its argument?17:01
godbykThe command itself.17:02
dutchieIf you put a % TRANSLATORS: comment in, it'll show up when they translators translate17:02
dutchie% TRANSLATORS: don't translate the command \date17:02
godbykOn the same line or above/below?17:02
dutchieabove or below I think17:02
dutchiesame line might work17:02
godbykBoth the Greek and Spanish translations had that problem.17:04
godbyk(Trying to figure out which translations I need to write code for and which are just not compiling due to typos.)17:04
dutchiesounds fun17:04
* dutchie is watching his team be denied the League Cup17:04
dutchiestupid Manchester United17:04
dutchievidic should have gone off 5 minutes in17:05
godbykFixed a few translations: http://ubuntu-manual.org/builds/18:05
godbykThose that are failing now are due to things I need to code up.18:05
ubuntujenkinsthansk so much for that link you haev solved my problem :-)18:05
godbykubuntujenkins: what problem was that?18:06
ubuntujenkinsI needed the full names of two language codes18:06
godbykwhat for?18:06
godbykalso that's only a list of the languages we're currently translating.. definitely not a complete list.18:06
ubuntujenkinsI am making the script to merge the  47 odd branches of screenshots into a main screenshots branch18:07
* ubuntujenkins installs all the ubuntu language packs18:20
TommyBrunngodbyk: Are you there?23:25
TommyBrunnAh, nevermind. Good night everyone23:25

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