=== booboo is now known as coz_ [00:57] hey guys..the grube2 GEOM error is on my end not with grub2...I havent tracked down the reason for it but it has something to do with the xp installation becoming corrupt somehow...so no grub2 bug at all ... [00:58] just thought i would let you know so there are no worries....I am in the process of reinstalling both windows and ubuntu now will see if anything comes ofi t === coz_ is now known as booboo [01:02] booboo: hmm, any reason for it, spontaneous MS combustion? === booboo is now known as coz_ [01:03] arand, :) yeah I suppose so but I dont know if there is really any to find out now....did the scsi low format on both disks [01:04] arand, when I reinstalled ubuntu without any updates the same GEOM error occurred so that meant...minimally.. that the primary scsi disk was problematic..although still accessable from linux booting was not possible [01:05] arand, so I will check if the drive itself is going bad or just the xp installation ...the latter would be more difficult to track down [01:05] I know parted can do strange things sometimes, but I don't know.. [01:06] sorry about that [01:06] arand, well the confusing part is all worked well until this morning [01:06] arand, so I "assumed" it had been caused by an update [01:06] arand, i was cleraly wrong [01:07] clearly [01:07] the gedit bug however was on target === coz_ is now known as booboo [01:22] Is plymouth already in the alpha or will it be in the final version? [01:23] its in alpha [01:26] It [01:27] Pengyduckwin: It is planned to be in final yes. [01:27] Although, as always in the case of a big change, there are a bit of problems.. [01:28] I have a xbox 360 dvd in my drive.. and can't mount it even with sudo mount /dev/dvdrw /media/cdrom0 .. How do I do this? [01:29] sorry.. wrong channel [01:29] unless you have an answer :) [01:30] arand: That was why I was wondering, in case if I have boot-up problems [01:51] I have samba installed and /etc/init.d/samba start bash: /etc/init.d/samba: No such file or directory [02:00] Volkodav: do you mean /etc/init.d/smbd ? [02:01] yes [02:01] service smbd start says it is running already [02:04] smbclient -L volkodav [02:06] Connection to volkodav failed (Error NT_STATUS_UNSUCCESSFUL) [02:14] Volkodav: what does it say it you run 'restart smbd' ? [02:16] I just figured it out - it was a windoze box issue - all others see the shares [02:16] so it's all good [02:16] :) [02:29] Volkodav: are you using sudo to start it? [02:29] Volkodav: ahh [03:01] wtf is this yahoo search default? lol [03:01] google ftw! [03:13] Stik: its all over the news ;p. they're paying canonical for it. ubuntu does need money yanno ;p [03:13] I need money too but I don't sell myself to M$ :P [03:14] No matter.. easy to change :D [03:20] thats true M$ bought the Yahoo! Search Engine, so if Canoical takes money from Yahoo! they're taking money from the "enemy" (M$) *glares at canonical* [03:22] 1) Microsoft didn't buy the Yahoo! search engine, 2) "M$" is rather silly and petty, 3) I don't see how Microsoft having less money and Canonical having more, in the wacky alternate universe where this is actually what's happening, is a bad thing. [03:23] they did too it was just in the news the other day [03:23] no, they didn't [03:23] what ever [03:24] Alright... have there been issues with the latest builds? I wanted to try out ubuntu again, but the latest lucid builds (which are the only ones to support my graphics card) always fail in the configuration... [03:24] Actually, same issues with alpha 3 [03:24] Other than the questionable judgement of selling out the firefox homepage to yahoo, Ubuntu seems pretty slick. [03:24] It just refuses to install [03:24] belak: Plymouth is still horribly broken for me. Apart from that and my wifi card, it's fine. [03:24] Stik: How is that different from "selling out" the firefox homepage to Google? [03:24] It won't even let me install the core system [03:25] Google didn't pay them to put it there [03:25] Stik: You realize that Google pays Mozilla, right? [03:26] That has nothing to do with Canonical [03:26] rww knows everything [03:26] You and I both know it [03:26] cant argue with him [03:26] Stik: The only difference is that it's Yahoo instead of Google, and the money is going to fund Canonical instead of Mozilla. How is the new way more "questionable" than the old way? [03:27] Stik: how is Cannonical profiting from yahoo different from mozilla profiting from google? [03:27] seanbrystone: No, i just actually looked into the issue instead of reading silliness on blogs and regurgitating it. [03:27] rww your arrogance doesnt become you [03:28] When yahoo makes its messenger open source we can compare the two [03:28] seanbrystone: Try actually backing up what you're saying, it works better than calling names. [03:28] stik you dont have rww on ignore yet? [03:28] hello, where can i find xorg.conf? [03:29] Anyhow... I didn't want this to turn into some muscle flexing debate.. Just floored me to see yahoo as default page lol.. [03:29] alex702: /etc/X11/xorg.conf, it's not created by default because Xorg does autodetection, but if you create it and put stuff in there, Xorg uses it. [03:29] No I don't ignore people who have different views than I :P [03:29] rww has a superiority issue [03:29] just ignore him [03:29] seanbrystone: Disagreeing with you doesn't mean I have a superiority issue. [03:30] I am coming from slackware and already expected some sort of corperate injection in Ubuntu... [03:30] rww thanks [03:31] Stik: I agree. Ubuntu is more business-influenced than Slackware or Debian (which is where I came from). [03:32] rww, How do you feel about the fact that the money isn't in fact going to Mozilla anymore? That concerns me more than the Microsoft connection ( though even that not enough to really bother me ). [03:33] Jordan_U: Jono Bacon's made comments to the effect that Mozilla doesn't mind. Assuming that's true (and I haven't heard anything to the contrary), I'm fine with it. [03:35] Suprised how well this alpha is running [03:35] me too [03:35] its nice [03:36] oh wait, i got to "Back up" my statement on how well Ubuntu alpha is! I prolly just got that info from some blogs and regurgitating it ;) [03:37] :| [03:53] lol [03:54] * faileas notes its trivially easy to change your homepage [03:55] hmm [03:56] if the setup i'm planning on using works perfectly on the alpha... chances are things wouldn't likely break in beta and release right? [04:01] yo yo yo === andy_ is now known as ActionParsnip [04:01] isit ok to remove plymouth? [04:02] will the system still boot without? [04:02] ActionParsnip: yes, I did it, nothing bad happened. [04:02] rww: sweet, cheers bro [04:04] exit [04:06] rww: you still use slack? [04:07] belak: That was Stik, not me. I was a Debian user (and still am on one of my machines, actually). [04:08] Oh, ok. You like debian? I've never gotten it to work right... [04:09] belak: Yep. I mainly switched to Ubuntu because I'm lazy and Ubuntu does more stuff for me, not because of any Debian problems :) [04:09] :P [04:09] Ok [04:09] I want to use ubuntu again but I can't get it to install... [04:09] It's making me mad. [04:10] Are there any minimal ubuntu lucid install cds? [04:11] belak: Elaborate on what you mean by "minimal"? There are a couple of options :) [04:11] Net install [04:11] ubottu: minimal | belak [04:11] belak: The Minimal CD image is very small in size, and it downloads most packages from the Internet during installation, allowing you to select only those you want (the installer is like the one on the !Alternate CD). See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/MinimalCD [04:12] Is there one for lucid? [04:12] I didn't see one [04:12] I'm switching cause I am all geeked out.. I want simple... Got better things to do with my time anymore than tweaking slackware... [04:13] Ah [04:13] Maybe this would be good for me then. That's why I want to use ubuntu... [04:13] belak: If you replace "karmic" or "jaunty" or whatever in the links on that page with "lucid", it seems like you get a valid .iso. I don't know how often it's updated, though. [04:14] looks like the 32-bit one is about 5 days old [04:17] the mimimal disk will download the latest packages anyway [04:17] Which is why I want it [04:17] Less room for error [04:18] faileas: good point [04:18] I prefer using the alpha milestone ISOs, personally. At least then you know there aren't any broken dependencies in the installation set, so you'll actually be able to install. [04:20] rww: that didn't work for me... [04:20] Believe me, I tried [04:21] so, http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/netboot/lucid/ ? [04:21] belak: go there, select architecture, then download mini.iso, yeah. [04:21] Ok, sweet [04:21] I'll try tomorrow [04:22] 'Night all [04:45] Stik: if you want simple why are you using an alpha? ;p [04:45] Been simple so far [04:46] i suppose so [04:47] I still have slack on my laptop.. If all goes well with this till release I will probably put it on my laptop as well [04:55] eheh [04:56] i'm trying out a mockup of what i want to use on a server. since i'm running most things dualstacked, i'm basically testing it all === jastor is now known as _jastor === _jastor is now known as _jastor_ === _jastor_ is now known as jastor [07:45] Hello, is xsplash still used in lucid ? or is plymouth replacing it too ? [07:46] AnAnt: Plymouth replaces, yes [07:46] thanks [07:48] arand: you sure? isnt usplash the only one replaced by plymouth? and xsplash was supposed to stay [iirc] [07:49] * vish thought the whole point of starting x early was for xsplash [07:49] vish: AnAnt: Hmm, yea, I might be wrong.. [07:49] any site documenting boot process in Lucid -- like Grub -> Plymouth -> GDM detailed? [07:51] AnAnt: Yea, appears it only replaces usplash: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/dx-lucid-xsplash [07:52] thanks [07:53] @ping [07:53] !ping [07:53] Here I am, brain the size of a planet and you expect me to respond to a ping? How depressing. [08:43] Can anyone tell me why my Alt+F2 doesn't work? [08:43] hi there :D [08:43] somehow rebooted my lucid yesterday after a few weeks and it's not booting with any of the three kernels i have (2.6.32,31,30) [08:43] i guess there is something wrong with my initrd or whatever [08:44] recovery mode also fails to start [08:44] and if i boot with init=/bin/bash the keyboard doesn't work [08:44] m0rn|ng === kermiac_ is now known as kermiac [08:52] BUGabundo_remote: Careful... y|_|0 ar3 sl|pp1n9 into the sp33k there... [09:01] morning [09:02] ok....is anyone else not getting the run dialog when you hit Alt+F2? [09:02] it works here [09:02] mine broke somewhere along the way [09:03] do you modified the gnome-panel background? [09:03] did you * [09:04] no [09:04] was old bug ... sorry [09:04] alt-f2 is a parts of gnome-panel try to relaunch it [09:05] logged out and in, fiddled with themes [09:05] no luck [09:05] :o) [09:06] you should try launchpad bug [09:08] hey arand yofel [09:17] After a recent update to Lucid alpha I'm experiencing trouble with Thunderbird 3. The widgets (menu, listboxes etc) do not update correctly. Selecting a menu shows the "outline" of the menu popup, but no content. Clicking on items in the listboxes updates the message display, but nothing is highlighted in the listbox itself. Any ideas? [09:17] I was guessing xulrunner, but Firefox 3.6 seems to run just fine. [09:43] BUGabundo_remote: Hey hey! (late as in late) [09:44] How is it going with lucid? [09:45] DaemonFC: would you please join #ubuntu-ops [09:45] oops [09:45] what did he do? [09:46] last time you called me in there, I was in serious troubles [09:47] quentusrex: excitingly :). Lots of improvements, but still lots of crashes [09:48] fun fun [09:50] rww, any particular exciting new features? [10:10] hi does this channel discuss only ubuntu or can i make some kubuntu questions too? [10:12] jetdrone: You can ask Kubuntu questions too, I think. [10:13] jetdrone: sure, this channel is for anything lucid related [10:14] ok, rww, so i've created an usb stick with alpha3 for kubuntu but the installer crashes everytime and the anoying thing is that the usb stick only boots once, atfer a boot, i need to recreate it, any thoughts on how to fix that? [10:14] i'm creating the bootable stick with the usb-creator from karmic [10:22] jetdrone: I've *heard* usb-creator is not the most reliable, so maybe unetbootin would work better, (might just be the state of the daily though.. [10:23] ok, i'll give unetbootin a try and compare the results === booboo is now known as coz_ [10:50] nope doesn't install same results, and running with debug from command line doesn't output any logging either === coz_ is now known as booboo === kermiac is now known as kermiac_ [11:10] jetdrone: bugreportin'time! === pascalFR is now known as PascalFr_parti [11:15] will do [11:16] Well, unless already reported of course [13:07] is suspend blacklisted for T61? I get a 'Failed to suspend\nyour computer failed to suspend...' message when using fn-f4. Suspend works fine with pm-suspend called directly [13:41] anyone have run into problems with nouveau and LiveCD Alpha 3? CD spews lot of reading errors and in the end doesn't work correctly (launching Firefox crashed desktop). CD-RW is allright, I burned it with several other distros and they worked fine. [13:41] it happened on multiple computers [13:42] so I want to understand is this a bug i should report or some small annoyance [13:56] pecisk: One thing that might be worth a try is to test the dailies as well, to make sure it's not just that iso. [13:57] well, it happened with two different dailies, with three days between [14:12] hello [14:13] anyone here care to help me? [14:13] hello [14:13] !help [14:13] Please don't ask to ask a question, simply ask the question (all on ONE line and in the channel, so that others can read and follow it easily). If anyone knows the answer they will most likely reply. :-) [14:14] help help, somebody help! [14:14] anyone know how to install GDM into Lucid? [14:14] im about to install new GDM, but in lucid there is no menu like hardy last time [14:15] err [14:15] gdm is installed by default, afaik [14:15] sudo apt-get install gdm ? [14:16] don't understand what you are trying to accomplish.. [14:16] how can i change the default gdm ? [14:16] "default gdm" ? [14:16] :) [14:16] gdm = gnome display manager [14:16] ok, i have download a few GDM theme n would like to change the default login menu [14:16] gdm-legacy maybe [14:17] meaning? [14:17] gdm2setup [14:17] is application you are looking for [14:17] oh ok [14:18] i can get in the ubuntu software center? [14:19] how to install lucid-desktop-alpha3 without burning it to cd? [14:19] needhelp: read instructions here https://edge.launchpad.net/gdm2setup [14:19] those lines with sudo in the begining [14:19] im on it [14:19] thnx a lot [14:19] np [14:19] ;) [14:19] :P [14:19] or use software sources if you want gui for adding PPA [14:20] rzx237: usb stick? [14:20] rzx237: what do you mean by without burning? usb stick? [14:20] rzx237: or testing in virtual environment [14:20] no, I dont get it. I mean using hard disk [14:21] rzx237: what distro/operational system you have now? [14:21] pecisk: no, to a partition. I have karmic. [14:21] ahhh [14:21] rzx237: google for "debootstrap Ubuntu", but it is not that easy [14:22] guys, i gotthis msg appear : W: Failed to fetch http://ppa.launchpad.net/gdm2setup/gdm2setup/ubuntu/dists/lucid/main/binary-i386/Packages.gz 404 Not Found [14:22] E: Some index files failed to download, they have been ignored, or old ones used instead. [14:22] rzx237: also you can install buiquty [14:22] and install with it [14:22] any idea? [14:22] rzx237: http://www.google.lv/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&ved=0CAsQFjAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwiki.ubuntu.com%2FUbiquity&ei=sc2LS_eBBYnK-QaA45XkDQ&usg=AFQjCNG2pQuztbXyxQVAWgexOglOuzWS_A&sig2=5OyjdT3KkHRTWKBoWROPNw [14:23] pecisk: ubiquity just failed, I have try 4 or 5 times [14:23] needhelp: possibly it doesn't have explict lucid repo, change to karmic and try again [14:23] needhelp: sometimes depencies are ok for lucid too [14:23] ouh ok [14:29] done but i cant choose the downloaded gdm file to change [14:29] erm .. [14:30] just launch app [14:30] what happens then? [14:30] ok, got 5 tabs [14:30] one of them is Theme [14:30] but i cant do anything [14:31] appear TBD: This will contain the saved themes dialog [14:31] any idea/ [14:31] ? [14:34] needhelp: use the install button [14:34] install button? [14:34] needhelp: on the theme tab [14:35] on the theme tab its blurred [14:35] no option at all [14:35] just appear text TBD: This will contain the saved themes dialog [14:35] needhelp: your system is faulty then [14:35] thats all [14:35] erm [14:35] is there a prob as im using lucid now, but the ppa using kamic [14:36] needhelp: what's the ppa for? [14:36] to download gdm2setup [14:36] ppa.launchpad [14:37] needhelp: whats gdm2setup? [14:37] i need to change to default login screen [14:37] robin0800: advanced gdm configuration tool for post 2.26 gdm [14:38] old one was nuked when config for gdm changed drastrically [14:38] I could be wrong, but I thought that the new gdm didn't support any of the old themes. [14:38] well, that's news for me :) [14:39] Like I said, I could be wrong, I haven't tried to change it myself. [14:39] oo ok [14:39] needhelp: probably won't work in lucid different system [14:40] ouh ok [14:40] thnx buddy [14:41] needhelp: You can change the splash screens but they disappear so quickly it dosn't seem worth it [14:42] whut do u mean disappear so quickly? [14:43] needhelp: lucid boots realy fast so no time to display [14:43] oh ok [14:44] for login screen? [14:44] needhelp: stays longer on shutting down? [14:44] the default login theme kinda ugly for me [14:44] needhelp: set it to auto logon [14:45] herm [14:45] but yet still required to log the pass [14:45] needhelp: no [14:45] ? [14:45] needhelp: you can set to autologin and it will skip gdm [14:46] i understand [14:46] but still want to login using the password and i want the change the default login themes [14:46] thats all [14:46] if possible [14:47] needhelp: set a bios password if worried about security [14:47] erm [14:47] ok [14:48] hello everyone [14:48] needhelp: also ask gdm2setup devs to build for lucid [14:49] datacrusher: hi [14:49] hi. trying to upgrade my laptop ubuntu 9.10 to 10.04 alpha. i dont have much data on it, so just testing it out. [14:49] Howdy [14:49] needhelp: your choice is use it or bypass it you can't at present change it [14:49] will apt-get dist-upgrade do the trick after changing the sources? [14:49] ok [14:49] will there be any changes on the firewire support? [14:50] aquafina: If you're upgrading via the cli, you should be using do-release-upgrade -d, and not changing the sources directly. [14:50] Pici: i tried that .. update-manager -d, but got a bunch of errors [14:51] BluesKaj: Had to disable splash on this laptop to get it to boot to the logon screen is this the same as the server bug? === hif1_ is now known as hifi [14:51] nope aquafina update manager and the command Pici gave you are entirely different [14:51] BluesKaj: oh. let me check it out then [14:51] robin0800, sorry i dunno [14:52] aquafina, in the terminal do-release-upgrade -d [14:52] !find midentify [14:53] File midentify found in mplayer-nogui [14:53] thnx guys [14:53] gtg now [14:54] robin0800, I'm running a splash without any probs on grub and login on this desktop without any probs , so i can't say what your issue could be [14:55] oops , repeating myself myself again :) [14:56] robin0800, did you edit the grub splash or the login ? [14:56] BluesKaj: the server bug is that splash dosn't turnoff and thats what i've got I think [14:57] maybe i will be better off downloading an iso and doing a clean install :) [14:58] BluesKaj: no Will download a new daily and try again [14:58] robin0800, this is the tutorial I used to add a splash image to my grub menu http://www.ubuntu-inside.me/2009/06/howto-change-grub2-grub-pc-splash-image.html [14:59] BluesKaj: yea ive done that and its good but lucid boots so quick you hardly see them [15:01] robin0800, that depends on the time out setting you have in default grub , you can delay it more if you wish [15:01] the boot time that is [15:03] BluesKaj: I took quiet and splash out to see if I could find what was wrong and of course it booted ok [15:04] python-gdm2setup is "meant" to be able to do that (from gdm2setup PPA) [15:04] ok, but you'll need to re-add it if you want a grub splash later, robin0800 [15:04] eh ↑ ignore [15:06] BluesKaj: this is what I used sudo plymouth-set-default-theme ubuntu-logo --rebuild-initrd [15:07] robin0800, you may be amongst the majority tho, most ppl just want grub to boot as quickly as possible [15:09] BluesKaj: I'm just amazed how easy it is to change it [15:09] Hello, dose anyone know if any of the AT&T usb Air cards work with Ubuntu 10.04? [15:10] BluesKaj: this is usefull too plymouth-set-default-theme --list [15:10] for the login splash ? [15:11] I just set it in system settings [15:11] I'm getting blank windows with thunderbird, suspect some xmlrunner problems. Anybody seen anything similar? [15:12] yes the first one does the work with the name , you get the names using that secomnd command [15:12] robin0800, I've DL'sd a number of splash themes to choose from tho [15:13] BluesKaj: plymouth-set-default-theme --list does that see them? [15:13] yes [15:14] BluesKaj: well you only need sudo plymouth-set-default-theme ubuntu-logo --rebuild-initrd to apply it [15:14] how do you change the plymouth themes? I know how to see them but how to change? [15:15] pasjr: use sudo plymouth-set-default-theme ubuntu-logo --rebuild-initrd change ubuntu-logo to the name you want [15:16] all are showing up as root@PASJR-TOSHIBA:~# plymouth-set-default-theme --rebuild-intird [15:16] /lib/plymouth/themes/--rebuild-intird/--rebuild-intird.plymouth does not exist [15:17] root@PASJR-TOSHIBA:~# plymouth-set-default-theme --ubuntu-logo --rebuild-intird [15:17] You can only specify one theme at a time [15:18] pasjr: thats why its called set default theme [15:18] o ok [15:19] pasjr: there is no -- before the name === debfx_ is now known as debfx [15:31] why when I have auto login do I still need to enter password for key ring? Can I make keyring auto as well? [15:32] pasjr: you can probably set an empty password but it doesn't make sense - keyring is there to protect passwords from third party [15:33] It just seems a waste of time to set auto login to still have to enter password for keyring [15:34] it can't be done other way [15:35] well, other than setting no password for keyring which isn't safe [15:35] ok [15:38] the battery icon is now also part of the indicator applet [15:38] hmm [15:38] on mouseover there's not report of how much % [15:38] Ian_Corne: I think it's already reported [15:38] ok [15:49] hi zusammen [15:51] weiss jemand einen unkompliziuerten weg auf einer ubuntu live cd (auf usb stick) das netzwerk zu installieren (ohne vorhandenen internet) ? [15:52] !de | EternalPain [15:52] EternalPain: In den meisten ubuntu-Kanälen wird nur Englisch gesprochen. Für deutschsprachige Hilfe besuchen Sie bitte #ubuntu-de, #kubuntu-de, #edubuntu-de oder #ubuntu-at. Geben Sie einfach /join #ubuntu-de ein! Danke für Ihr Verständnis. [15:52] ok thx ;) [16:11] :) [16:15] Anyone has installed tracker in 10.04 alpha 3? [16:20] hi there [16:20] what's the best way to test gnome-shell? is it actually usable, did anyone uses regularly over here? [16:22] hype:install it from repos or ppa. [16:22] it is usable indeed. [16:22] hehe, just checking launchpad :) [16:22] i have tried it from time to time [16:25] tgpraveen12 what about the one in Lucid? just noticed it's available by default [16:26] i guess it's not the latest but not sure for an alpha... [16:27] !info gnome-shell [16:27] gnome-shell (source: gnome-shell): graphical shell for the GNOME desktop. In component universe, is extra. Version 2.28.1~git20091125-1 (lucid), package size 445 kB, installed size 1596 kB [16:27] hmm yeah it is old [16:27] 2.29 is latest [16:27] looks nice actually [16:28] would have seen this as an addon for "scale" compiz plugin but hey === yofel_ is now known as yofel [16:51] Hello, I am runing Lucid amd64 in a vbox appliance, adding vbox shared folders in fstab makes boot process stop even in recovery mode, should I report this as a bug? [16:53] Sensiva, why fstab ,whynot network in dolphin [16:54] hmm, I am not really sure what is dolphin you are referring to [16:54] BluesKaj I used to do it this way with Karmic, with no problems [16:54] dolphin file manager in lucid [16:55] are there any issues with i3 processor and graphics on the processor? [16:55] well, i don't use file sharing in fstab , only drives which contain the files [16:56] dfgas: graphics on the processor? [16:56] BluesKaj I meant shared vbox folders, not samba shared folders [16:56] yah some of the i3 processors have intel 4500hd on the i3 proccessor [16:56] my laptop has that [16:57] and it sounds like its booting but never makes it into X [16:58] i have tried the aplpha3 of 10.4 and also have tried 9.10 [16:58] same results on both [17:03] Sensiva, i don't use samba , just smbclient , but anyway i tried using fstab to share folders as well on karmic and i wasn't able to make it work, so i settled for ssh and sftp [17:04] dunno if that works on VBox tho [17:04] BluesKaj Do you know what are vbox shared folders are? [17:05] dfgas what boot cheats did you try [17:06] Sensiva, shared folders in vbox , share in windows or linux, or both [17:07] * BluesKaj shrugs [17:09]