[19:40] <thorwil> http://jimmac.musichall.cz/images/blog/gnome-3-widgets-shaded.png
[19:46] <troy_s> thorwil: Ugh. Someone tell those two to just stop. Please.
[19:46] <troy_s> thorwil: There I said it.
[19:50] <thorwil> troy_s: i guess you would even ask an jackhammer operator to stay away from calligraphy
[19:51] <troy_s> thorwil: We covered those mocks a while back. It's classic - padding padding whitespace padding (cuz' that's contemporary design right?) bold space bold bold space padding padding HUGEZOMGAWESOME.
[19:51] <troy_s> thorwil: All of this attention to GNOME 3 as a 'step' and we have some sort of schlocky redo by the masters.
[19:52] <thorwil> troy_s: gtk theming is a choice of lipstick for the pig, anyway
[19:53] <troy_s> thorwil: Forest through trees.
[19:53] <troy_s> thorwil: It actually matters.
[19:53] <troy_s> thorwil: Sadly, not enough people have read that seminal article on Aesthetics and Usability. The net sum is given in the first page and we already know the punchline. Aesthetics matter more than all of the usability in a system.
[19:54] <troy_s> thorwil: So it isn't so much lipstick as the pig.
[19:54] <troy_s> thorwil: And besides, it is impossible to really evaluate usability because all of our slippery fish refuse to acknowledge who the hell it is for. Nothing more than a great huge pile of moot.
[19:54] <troy_s> thorwil: But those mocks make me absolutely cringe. Shudder.
[19:55] <thorwil> troy_s: the buttons make me wonder if there is a thing like spacing-blindness
[19:55] <troy_s> thorwil: It's just a big ball of meh. And colourblind as fsck.
[19:56] <troy_s> thorwil: But that would be another matter.
[19:56] <thorwil> though, at this point i have to admit that i made mockups much worse than that few years ago
[19:56] <troy_s> thorwil: I think everyone has. I don't think that is the point.
[19:57] <troy_s> thorwil: The point is, wtf is that thing striving for? There seems to be a bastion of craptastic aesthetic. Period. But alas, the fanboys will cheer it on. HUGE HEAVY CLUNKY GNOME3.
[19:58] <thorwil> troy_s: never saw a single word about what it is supposed to achieve
[19:58] <troy_s> thorwil: Shocker.
[19:58] <troy_s> thorwil: Spreading more ftardness.
[19:58] <troy_s> thorwil: I am pretty sure that's the goal.
[19:59] <troy_s> thorwil: And yes, I fully appreciate it is way to easy to sit on a sideline and fire pot shots at things. Yes yes... and the customary response is "Well everyone always gets worked up about..."
[20:00] <troy_s> thorwil: It's just sad though, when you have the 'go to chums' stink worse than 99% of the random throw-crap-at-wall mocks on DA.
[20:01] <troy_s> thorwil: That Locus mock was _one_ fellow sitting alone in _one_ room and his mocks (individual choices on elements and interaction models aside) simply _destroy_ those utterly classic mocks.
[20:02] <troy_s> thorwil: _Destroy_. As in blow all of the combined crap out of that camp out of the water to the tune of "A6 - you sunk my battleship!"
[20:02] <thorwil> troy_s: got a link?
[20:02] <troy_s> http://www.behance.net/Gallery/Locus-OS/415461
[20:03] <troy_s> thorwil: It certainly isn't perfect (whatever that means) and is a far cry from anything. But as a _first pass_ mock, it is a no contest with that blue monstrosity.
[20:03] <thorwil> troy_s: today i saw a 2nd blog post regarding the vision for Krita. comes out that Peter Sikking helped the team. the same guy who works on Gimp (also started with a product vision there)
[20:03] <troy_s> thorwil: Yeah great.
[20:04] <troy_s> thorwil: I read that and went "Here we go again"
[20:04] <troy_s> thorwil: We are _so_ fskcing obsessed with whether or not there is a gripper here or single window mode there that our fundamental core toolset sucks in _ability_.
[20:04] <troy_s> thorwil: It's like Stallman caring about preferences for the command line when gcc won't compile the code.
[20:05] <troy_s> thorwil: Sadly, it's just yet-another-guy-guessing.
[20:05] <troy_s> thorwil: Had they done even a _shred_ of research they would have learnt that Michael Terry is not only a usability specialist but he actually studied professional artists as part of his higher level degree.
[20:06] <troy_s> thorwil: Just based on his random guesses alone you could likely prioritize your design thinking.
[20:07] <thorwil> troy_s: this one? http://hci.uwaterloo.ca/faculty/mterry/
[20:07] <troy_s> thorwil: Yes.
[20:08] <thorwil> troy_s: he was at the UDS in Dallas
[20:08] <troy_s> thorwil: Yes I know.
[20:09] <troy_s> thorwil: The Krita devs did one thing though - they listened to the concept artist for Durian. He basically said what many have said before "The tools suck performance wise"
[20:09] <thorwil> troy_s: damn great presenter. very fast, yet easy to follow even for ears that lack training with english
[20:09] <troy_s> thorwil: He's a very very clever cookie.
[20:09] <troy_s> thorwil: Although I am torn on his approach to GIMP.
[20:09] <thorwil> troy_s: heh, i'm too
[20:09] <troy_s> thorwil: His approach is taking an existing audience and making GIMP better for that audience. I'd probably disagree as our culture only has one app that is even close to being useful and it stinks.
[20:10] <troy_s> thorwil: So while his view is entirely pragmatic and justified, in terms of a tool that we can use to develop higher end output... I just am torn. :(
[20:11] <troy_s> thorwil: I'd even take the hideous performance if it would embrace deep colour and linear colour.
[20:12] <troy_s> thorwil: But alas, we have buffoons in our culture that not only are clueless but also somehow defend things that they understand nothing about (http://identi.ca/conversation/11761531#notice-15873957)
[20:12] <troy_s> thorwil: Absolutely _clueless_ and worse, defending things that he clearly knows fsck all about.
[20:13] <troy_s> thorwil: Complete donkey.
[20:14] <thorwil> fun
[20:14] <troy_s> thorwil: Frustrating. It's no shame to not understand something. We all don't understand things.
[20:15] <troy_s> thorwil: It is entirely a different matter when you don't understand something and attempt to provide solutions when your understanding is so utterly crippled that you are incompetent and unaware.
[20:17] <troy_s> thorwil: What is funny though is that in a purely technical sense, the hobby photographer / image manipulator gains more out of deep colour than a professional grade photographer because their skillset dictates that they are likely to make more mistakes and need more adjustment ability.
[20:17] <troy_s> thorwil: So what's up at your end?
[20:19] <thorwil> troy_s: i'm still recovering from shock, because the manual project leader wanted to use slicing to create a website with text in Droid Sans
[20:19] <troy_s> lol
[20:20] <troy_s> thorwil: Hrm... I haven't been following. (Sadly my bloody post gets pulled up in all sorts of scenarios as some sort of "Droid Sans is BAD" context, which misses the point entirely)
[20:21] <thorwil> troy_s: heh, i pasted the link and he was amazed at the as he called it in-depth analysis of a font
[20:21]  * thorwil doesn't remember the exact words
[20:22] <troy_s> thorwil: Well... it's unfortunate that most miss the boat on it. My fault largely, as I should have said "This isn't really about Droid Sans"
[20:22] <troy_s> thorwil: It's about _why_.
[20:22] <troy_s> thorwil: And obviously context.
[20:22] <thorwil> troy_s: i recall that you repeat in the text several times that it all doesn't mean it would be a bad font, so why put blame on yourself?
[20:24] <troy_s> thorwil: Because I can see the fricking places it shows up. LOL.
[20:24] <troy_s> thorwil: So apparently I need to surround it in padding and make it blink in blue.
[20:24] <troy_s> thorwil: Maybe I should take a tip from those GNOME mocks.
[20:25] <thorwil> troy_s: that pile of things on the top is a perfect example for one of my issues: i'm said to be the artwork team leader. not much of a team, but i feel responsible. now if in such a situation, someone creates a little graphic that is just bad ...
[20:25] <troy_s> thorwil: Did you guys ever get the drop of the changes to the logo etc?
[20:26] <thorwil> troy_s: ... i end up being seen as bad guy if i try to just shoot it down. otherwise i would have to create a replacement. for which i might not have the time
[20:26] <troy_s> thorwil: Good times eh?
[20:26] <troy_s> thorwil: LOL
[20:28] <thorwil> SiDi: what are you intending to do about it?
[20:28] <SiDi> thorwil: hello
[20:28] <SiDi> what should I do about what?
[20:28] <troy_s> thorwil: It is difficult to be certain. I think that as long as everyone can at least accept that judgement calls will be made, and hopefully made for the right reasons (the target of the whole effort) then perhaps it makes things easier.
[20:28] <troy_s> SiDi: About time you showed up.
[20:29] <troy_s> SiDi: Everyone has been waiting here.
[20:29] <thorwil> SiDi: who else could do anything about it?
[20:29] <SiDi> Ok, so I was expected to show up today?
[20:29] <SiDi> Well, hi there, I'm there, hope you enjoy! :D
[20:30] <thorwil> things can only get better now that you are here
[20:31] <SiDi> Hm okay
[20:31] <SiDi> Am I allowed to be dubitative?
[20:32] <thorwil> maybe after i have been contemplative
[20:32] <SiDi> Damn I didn't know I missed you so much
[20:32] <troy_s> SiDi: Sorry, couldn't resist Thorwil's lead.
[20:32] <thorwil> it never hit me that you missed us so much
[20:33] <thorwil> huh? i lead to nowhere!
[20:33] <SiDi> you only strongly suggest a direction to take
[20:33] <SiDi> :)
[20:34] <thorwil> SiDi: to this day, i'm always surprised when being taken somewhat authoritative
[20:34] <SiDi> It's because you're wiser than most other people
[20:34] <SiDi> so we tend to see you as an acceptable figure of authority
[20:35] <troy_s> Ok... I must bolt to the mail for five minutes. Sorry to leave the suckholefest. Lol.
[20:35] <thorwil> SiDi: oh wow, thank you
[20:35]  * thorwil blushes
[20:36] <thorwil> so he has until :40
[20:37] <SiDi> Yeah, then we punish him!
[20:37] <thorwil> with double outlines
[20:37] <troy_s> Woo
[20:37] <troy_s> Don't forget some extra padding
[20:37] <thorwil> troy_s: goo on you, i just wanted to say Clunk!
[20:38] <SiDi> thorwil: i propose we faint to ignore troy_s for another 5 minutes
[20:38] <thorwil> SiDi: oh, i've gotten soft. it's not just a maximum, but also minimum!
[20:41] <thorwil> so much for that
[20:42] <thorwil> pink comic sans on green ground, almost but not quite centered!
[20:42] <troy_s> thorwil: You can't knock Comic Sans when we have Ubuntu Titling font.
[20:43] <troy_s> thorwil: Sorry.
[20:44] <thorwil> troy_s: i think it was the "Title" font, "Titling" being quite a bit better (but still not good for much)
[20:44] <troy_s> thorwil: I think Christian tried to make it better, but it started out limping out of the gate.
[20:46] <troy_s> thorwil: It simply needs to be banished. Everywhere. Period.
[20:46] <troy_s> thorwil: No exceptions.
[20:47] <thorwil> at some point i should take care of the ubuntu brainstorm header
[20:48] <troy_s> thorwil: Did you hear anything about Inkscape's added color management stuff? I was trying to find out if they added elements or just changed the fricking ui?
[20:48] <troy_s> thorwil: Especially linear color, but I doubt that.
[20:48] <thorwil> troy_s: no idea
[20:49] <troy_s> hrm... xicc is interesting.
[20:54] <troy_s> thorwil: Why exactly does Brainstorm exist?
[20:54] <troy_s> thorwil: It still numbs me.
[21:00] <thorwil> troy_s: it seemed like it could be good to collect and filter ideas and gather feedback. i'm not in a position that i could evaluate it's success or failure
[21:01] <troy_s> thorwil: 1) I guess the question is why? If no one in a position to implement anything cares, it's moot. 2) Noise. Without some sort of granularity on demographic every single plus one will be countered with a minus one, or worse, not. In the last event, people erroneously consider a net trend as data.
[21:01] <troy_s> thorwil: Just sort of seems... well... on par. lol.
[21:02] <SiDi> An attempt tn getting feedback, even if you can't always do what your users want or make a good use of it, is already much better than working in a closed box and not looking at what the outside world thinks about you.
[21:02] <thorwil> troy_s: it's build on an optimistic take on the value of ideas. i didn't second guess the concept back then, i concentrated on the artwork and that was it
[21:03] <thorwil> troy_s: nowadays i'm of course beyond optimistic-anything and know of the uselessness of just-ideas
[21:03] <thorwil> ;p
[21:04] <troy_s> thorwil: Lol.
[21:04] <troy_s> thorwil: Well I'm actually sort of wondering why someone hasn't seen the value of actual deep data.
[21:04] <troy_s> thorwil: For those that are willing to give it.
[21:04] <troy_s> thorwil: Age would even be huge.
[21:04] <troy_s> thorwil: Gender.
[21:05] <troy_s> thorwil: Culture / Region (I don't imagine anyone from China or Japan really can use that site for example)
[21:05] <troy_s> thorwil: It would actually be _valuable_ if it gathered data.
[21:05] <thorwil> age is the favorite poll question on the forum. you can get to know the average age or maybe even rough age distribution of forum dwellers who answer in such polls!!
[21:06] <troy_s> thorwil: Imagine the trending charts you could develop? Imagine if you hooked up the database of data to some sort of chart generating system on the frontend? That would be pretty damn cool.
[21:06] <troy_s> thorwil: LOL
[21:06] <troy_s> thorwil: Bingo. Sociology 101.
[21:06] <troy_s> thorwil: I was fortunate enough to shift degrees after two years in another degree.
[21:07] <thorwil> troy_s: how many degress are you shifted now?
[21:07] <troy_s> thorwil: Had the upside of exposing me to first and second year psychology / sociology etc. All that sort of stuff bubbles to the top. Not the least of which is how to create a poll that isn't biased - Which is ... nigh on impossible. LOL.
[21:07] <troy_s> thorwil: I only have one degree.
[21:07] <troy_s> thorwil: I started in a different area.
[21:07] <troy_s> thorwil: Then took some time off and went back and got the degree which I hold now.
[21:08] <troy_s> thorwil: But even that limited exposure to sociology was a pretty big eye opener.
[21:10] <troy_s> pkill pulse
[21:10] <troy_s> ACK
[21:11] <thorwil> NACK
[21:12] <thorwil> troy_s: anyway, brainstorm does have "Ideas in development" and "Implemented ideas" for some reason
[21:12] <troy_s> thorwil: Yeah the "Oh... we happened to already do that."
[21:12] <troy_s> lol
[21:13] <thorwil> enough for today, cya!
[21:18] <Viper550> hey, for next Ubuntu, can we make this the splash screen? http://www.room17.com/ramblings/wandering_chaos/caldera1.gif D:
[21:24] <troy_s> Oh how so little has changed.
[21:24] <troy_s> Oh how so little has changed.