[00:29] morning [00:35] hi spiv! igc! [00:59] hi poolie, spiv, jelmer, lifeless [01:00] lifeless, poolie: has anything changed in the PQM setup recently? [01:00] I'm getting "ender not authorised to commit to branch http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~bzr-pqm/bzr/2.1/ " [01:01] igc: I haven't asked for any config changes [01:01] lifeless, poolie: is that the right branch for 2.1 submits? [01:01] igc: that is a release branch, which may have a different commit group; have you submitted to 2.1 before? [01:01] *s*ender [01:01] lifeless: maybe not [01:01] spm: ^ please check igc is inthe release manager group in the pqm config [01:02] igc: yup; you're in the RM group [01:03] * spm checks logs... [01:03] spm: hmm [01:04] igc: how long ago did you submit? [01:05] spm: around 11.30pm last night [01:05] igc: we need to chat about your working hours... ;-) [01:05] spm: http://pastebin.com/EGv3bFy8 [01:05] spm: :-) [01:07] igc: should that be to 'bzr+ssh://bazaar.launchpad.net/~bzr-pqm/bzr/2.1' vs http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~bzr-pqm/bzr/2.1/ ? [01:08] spm: I don't think so, isn't there a mapping section [01:08] ? [01:08] * lifeless really needs to make this totally painless [01:08] well [01:08] anyone can do that. lp:pqm. kthanks [01:09] igc that branch looks right to me [01:09] [/home/pqm/archives/thelove/bzr/2.1] [01:09] publish_to=bzr+ssh://bazaar.launchpad.net/~bzr-pqm/bzr/2.1 [01:09] published_at=http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~bzr-pqm/bzr/2.1 [01:09] lifeless: yeah... [01:09] it may need no trailing slash? [01:09] it's incredibly finicky [01:09] I suspect that that is it [01:09] ok, I'll try with no trailing slash [01:26] spm, lifeless: that's looking better thanks. Failing now due to a text conflict in NEWS which is much better [01:26] heh, for values of "better" :-) [01:35] spm, can you review tuolumne changes at all? [01:36] poolie: sure can, I gather that's a review request of your recent one. [01:37] is nested branches the best way to handle multiple branches taht depend on the same branch? [01:37] like multiple programs using a shared library [01:38] poolie: *comments*!!!! I'm inclined to auto-approve +1 on that basis alone! ;-) [01:38] spm, yes, :) [01:38] poolie: any chance of some 2 minute reviews soon on the 2 trivial patches I submitted yesterday? [01:38] some chance :) [01:38] poolie: I want to build a fresh set of CHM files for 2.1 and those patches would be nice [01:39] sure [01:39] poolie: one is desktop-link, the other is drop-analytics [01:39] poolie: thanks [01:39] igc, sphinx's setup is a bit of a rats' nest [01:39] i love the results [01:40] poolie: the desktop link one adds "Desktop Guide" into "Related Links" and moves Developer Docs to the top of the 2nd column fwiw [01:40] yep, i can read it [01:40] i just don't like changing it [01:41] poolie: just saving you from running sphinxx to see the results :-) [01:42] +1 on both [01:42] thanks [01:46] spiv, you may have noticed our cup brimmeth over [01:47] :) [01:48] I'll see what I can do. [01:49] what was the name of the plugin that gives general author stats for a branch? [01:49] bzr-stats, IIRC? [01:53] Peng: ta [02:24] poolie: would you like to give a second review to https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~parthm/bzr/138600/+merge/19471 (and its backport to 2.1, https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~parthm/bzr/138600-2.1-mkdir-should-fail-on-invalid-parent/+merge/20199)? It's short. [02:50] so I did a "bzr branch http://svn.digium.com/svn/asterisk/branches/1.4 asterisk-1.4", and it seemed to mostly work, but most of the tags (if i do bzr tags) show their revision as "???", even ones i know are on the 1.4 branch, like 1.4.29 [02:53] * igc lunch [02:56] which is somewhat disappointing because for the most part i'd like to branch off of a certain tag, and then when upstream makes a new release merge in up to the next tag [02:58] marv: that means that your branch doesn't include the revision referred to by the tag [02:58] marv: if you use 'bzr svn-import' to import all the branches and tags, then those revisions should be present in the resulting bzr repo. [02:59] marv: you can always "bzr branch" directly from the relevant svn tag, of course. [03:00] marv: (and if you do it in a shared repository, whether made by 'bzr init-repo' or 'bzr svn-import', it will be much faster to do so than the first fetch from SVN) [03:08] but i can still pull new changes from svn after I do an svn-import? [03:08] marv: yep [03:09] marv: just "bzr pull" in an individual branch, or you can re-run 'bzr svn-import' to update the whole set. [03:09] I don't really want to run commands like 'bzr branch svn-url' too often, they probably don't appreciate that load on their svn server [03:13] marv: if you do in in a shared repo, most of the data will already have been converted when you make the first branch, so the load should be fairly low. [03:13] Not as cheap as the equivalent SVN command, but not ridiculously larger either. [03:18] ah i see now. looks like the tag was modified after it was tagged [03:30] guess that makes their tags not really tags [03:30] subversion might be a little too free form some times [03:33] spiv, ok [03:35] spiv, parthm, i think we're still finding our way as far as risk/reward for stable updates [03:35] to me this is not a very severe bug [03:36] so worth fixing but perhaps not worth taking the risk of breaking the stable branch [03:36] even if that risk is not very high in absolute terms [03:36] what do you think? [03:39] poolie: I don't feel strongly either way about this change [03:40] poolie: which is probably an argument against the backport :) [03:44] probably [03:45] we should work out how to articulate the line [03:45] for me it should be closer to "prevents you getting stuff done" than "a bit annoying" [03:45] after all we don't backport performance things, generally [03:45] and many of them may have a larger user impact than this bug [04:05] "user impact" is a difficult to quantify concept. [04:06] For instance, I don't think I've ever used 'bzr mkdir', so for me the benefit of this patch would be zero. [04:06] But if there are users that use it daily, then that's a different story. [04:07] In this instance, I don't really have a good idea of where this feature lies in the spectrum of "literally no-one cares" to "some users use it every day". [04:09] With many features it's easier to judge; I think we have a reasonably good idea that e.g. ftp support is used a lot by a small minority (and against a wide variety of servers). [04:12] Anyway, for the mkdir patch, it certainly isn't in the "prevents you getting stuff done" category. [04:12] Or even close to it. [04:14] I'm not sure that performance improvements make a good comparison though, because they are often more wide-ranging patches. Although they are interesting in that one person's annoying performance may be another's unusable performance. [04:36] that's true [04:36] both parts are true but particluarly that they tend to be more intrusive [04:44] On a completely different topic: http://exogen.github.com/nose-achievements/ [04:45] poolie: have done a couple of minor fixes (really. minor.) and result set is here: https://pastebin.canonical.com/28557/ if you would like to sanity check the numbers? [04:46] that's cute [04:48] spm it's a bit gross (but not at all your fault) that this is mixing things about bzr on launchpad with things about the bzr project [04:48] is it too gross? [04:48] should we s/bzr/bzrproject/ in my methods, or something like that [04:49] poolie: not to my mind. (being gross as in). I think it's fine as is; I'd only advise doing the separation if that'll make stuff easier for you? [04:50] i think it will avoid confusion and it's probably better done now than later [04:50] the numbers look plausible [04:50] thanks for reviewing/fixing it [04:52] sounds like a plan; just doing the review write up now which mentions the fixes needed. [04:55] spm so do you want to do these tweaks or should i? [04:55] to be clear, with the renaming, i'm just talking about renaming it in the self.store calls [04:57] poolie: probably best if you do it; then it stays in the same branch/merge proposal (I think....)?? [05:00] mm [05:00] no, you can just merge your branch with the changes [05:00] lp will see the common ancestry [05:01] ha. I just *run* LP, I don't know how to use it. :-D [05:03] so... [05:03] maybe you should do it, for practice? :) [05:04] sssh. :-) is pushing atm... [05:54] poolie: I see you are filling in commit messages on your merge proposals... does that mean you have a tool to turn a mp into a pqm request? [05:54] Oh, [05:54] i do :) [05:54] I just saw the mail :) [05:54] it's a bit crude but better than doing it by hand [05:55] poolie: what are you doing for \n ? [05:56] in pqm? [05:56] yeha [05:56] I mean, commit -> mp is fairly lossless [05:56] replacing it with spaces and ennui [06:08] spiv, i agree about 'almost ready' etc [06:15] bbl [07:21] hi all ! [07:28] Hi vila [07:28] Hi all [07:29] Is there a way to make pqm use ssl for the smtp server? [07:29] *bzr-pqm [07:30] So that I can use the gmail smtp server [07:33] yes [07:33] bzr help configuration / bzr help email [07:33] one of those docs the options I think [07:36] Thank lifeless [07:40] Ah - Using the smtp.gmail.com:465 (ssl) does not work, but smtp.gmail.com:587 (TLS) does [07:45] Port 465 is totally on my "die-already" list :p [07:47] fullermd: it's a long shot; but could you add ports 135-139 inclusive for me on that list? no reason.... [07:49] Oh, those are long since dead to me. [07:53] Hi bialix [07:53] Hi GaryvdM !!! [07:54] * spiv calls it a day [07:54] spiv: have a nice evening and say hello to Vincent and his mother from me :) [07:55] s/from/for/ ? [08:19] what is the easiest way to get the local user from the bzr config? [08:19] using bzrlib [08:20] look at builtins.py [08:20] cmd_whoami [08:20] ack [08:21] thumper: [08:21] config = self.tree.branch.get_config() [08:22] self.default_author = config.username() [08:22] vila: both "from" and "for" are ok I think, but "for" is the more common choice for that phrase. [08:22] spiv: ack ;) [08:24] is there an easy way to extract out the "Eric the Viking" and "eric@vikings.net" from "Eric the Viking " easily with the config or do I need regex? [08:25] thumper: use the email parsing module if you need to do that [08:25] There's bzrlib.config.parse_username [08:25] thumper: look into config.py [08:26] But... *shudder*. I'd be inclined to use a proper email parser, like lifeless suggests. [08:26] * thumper looks at what launchpad uses [08:27] there's something in the email package for it [08:27] email.Utils.parseaddr [08:27] awesome [08:28] I thik we have our own one because we get weird shit [08:41] * bialix waves hi all [08:45] hi bialix [08:45] * igc dinner [08:46] hi igc, bon appetit [08:52] bialix: for rev 1207 in qbzr trunk. I'm not sure how it looks on windows. [08:53] I can check [08:53] * bialix pulling [08:53] bialix: Please let me know if it is not good. [08:53] To see the change, do bzr update -r -2 ; bzr qcommit [08:54] not so fast [08:59] GaryvdM: I don't see anyhing new in qcommit dialog [08:59] GaryvdM: I don't see anything new in qcommit dialog [08:59] I've did: bzr update -r-2; bzr qcommit [08:59] and have usual qcommit dialog [09:00] bialix: press ok [09:00] ok, I see now [09:00] it's a bit too big [09:00] IMO [09:00] * bialix preparing screenshot [09:01] I would prefer smaller icon [09:01] Yes - need to resize the icon. [09:02] GaryvdM: http://imagebin.ca/view/2kq8NvOq.html [09:02] bialix: Thanks [09:03] I was hoping that the background would be tool tip yellow [09:03] also I have suggestion about text: IMO better: "...To commit, update the working tree first." [09:04] GaryvdM: there is no tooltip [09:04] I wanted the background of the frame to be yellow. [09:05] ah [09:05] understand [09:06] I also need to make the frame and the textbox the same width. [09:07] Ah - just need to make the textboxes colspan = 2 [09:42] hi, I am setting up a shared resporatory and so far everything works, we can do a push pull checkout commit and worked out of the box with no effort, problem is if I ssh into the centeral server and check the location of the shared resporatory bzr log works fine but there are no files in any of our branches? any ideas? I did a bzr init-repo --no-trees sftp:// and then a bzr init on the indevidual projects. Any ideas why the cent [09:42] eral server does not keep the files inside the rsporatory? [09:42] that's waht --no-trees does [09:42] and is fine [09:45] ah thanks bob2, I over looked that, the problem is the server is for development so on a push I wanted the changes to go live, any way I can revert away from --no-trees no I have a running setup? [09:45] *now [09:45] that doesn't help [09:45] push doesn't update the working tree on the remote end [09:45] (unless you're pushing to a file://) url [09:46] you could switch it to have trees + install the update-after-push plugin on all the clients [09:46] so we would be better using it the way we have it now, and have a shell script do the checkout somewhere else away from the working resporatory? [09:47] so to do a backup from bazaar all we need to do is run a checkout and stick this on our backup rotation? [09:47] you can just back up the repository [09:50] bob2 this is where the confusion hit me, I was going to do that but then noticed no files other than directories with a .bzr in it so I was suspecting that would not work, but now I get how a --no-trees works [09:51] all the revision data is in the .bzr dirs [09:51] it's just nto checked out [09:59] ah thanks bob2 I will keep playing, we use git in work so just trying to move over to bazaar on my own systems [10:00] in git you're discouraged from pushing to non-bare repositories for the same reason [10:14] What GUI would you recommend for working with bzr in Windows? "none" is not a valid answer ;) [10:15] I tried bzr explorer, but it is far from stable on my system when I work with a tree checked out from an svn server [10:20] whats the best way to import from git? [10:21] Hello. I want to include someone else's source code inside mine. Both of us are using bzr. What is the best thing I can do, since bzr doesn't support external references? Fork it? [10:26] tasslehoff: what errors do you get? [10:29] tasslehoff: bzr explorer is the best we have. Hopefully we can solve your problems. [10:30] GaryvdM: I choose "log history", right click a commit and select "show tree". It crashes with bzrlib.errors.NoSuchRevision [10:30] * GaryvdM checks bug db [10:30] GaryvdM: lunch now. back to debug more later [10:33] tasslehoff: Seems like bug 383359. If you subscribe to that, you will get notified when it is fixed. [10:33] Launchpad bug 383359 in qbzr "qlog remotebranch/file crashes if there are revisions missing in the current directory." [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/383359 [11:02] GaryvdM: back. thanks. released doesn't mean released to the general public? [11:04] Oh, sorry I made a mistake. That was fixed in 0.11.0 which is released. I thought that it was not fixed. [11:04] tasslehoff^ [11:05] tasslehoff: I'll log a new bug [11:07] tasslehoff: what happens if yeu run bzr qbrowse -r XXX ? [11:07] *you [11:10] GaryvdM: the same for a rather new version. for version 15 in the tree (now at ~1500) it works [11:10] tasslehoff: so you got the some error? [11:11] *same [11:11] GaryvdM: yes [11:11] jelmer: ^ [11:11] hey GaryvdM [11:11] I think I missed some context [11:11] Hi jelmer [11:12] jelmer: If he does bzr qbrowse -r XXX he gets bzrlib.errors.NoSuchRevision [11:12] jelmer: bzr-svn branch [11:12] does the revision actually exist ? :-) [11:12] does bzr log -rXXX work ? [11:13] jelmer: How do you get the revision to be fetched [11:13] jelmer: He can see it in qlog [11:13] how do you mean? [11:14] in that case, what about "bzr ls -rXXX" ? [11:14] http://pastebin.ca/1819014 [11:15] that doesn't look like a bzr-svn branch [11:15] (CHKInventoryRepository) [11:16] jelmer: I followed "A simple example" on http://doc.bazaar.canonical.com/bzr.2.1/en/user-guide/svn_plugin.html to get started [11:16] tasslehoff: Ok - I don't know what is causing that, but I can get browse to ignore it. [11:17] is that revision a ghost perhaps? [11:17] Perhapse [11:18] jelmer: qbrowse tries to load all revisions for inventoryentry.revision [11:19] GaryvdM: that'd explain it [11:20] it actually works on every revision up to 1500, and fails from there [11:20] jelmer: Is there a way to get bzr to fetch the ghosts? [11:21] GaryvdM: bzr fetch-ghosts [11:21] tasslehoff:logged as bug 530606 [11:21] Launchpad bug 530606 in qbzr "qbrowse chashes on branch with ghost revision." [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/530606 [11:21] GaryvdM: but they might not be fetchable [11:21] GaryvdM: ok [11:21] GaryvdM: in other words, not present anywhere [11:22] how can I check if it's a ghost commit? [11:22] jelmer: Ok. Thanks for the help. [11:22] tasslehoff: try bzr fetch-ghosts [11:23] GaryvdM, If it's a bzr-svn repo the revisions probably just won't be there [11:25] GaryvdM: it did something, and said "Still missing" about four revisions [11:29] tasslehoff: I'm not sure what would cause that. But I should be able to fix bug 530606 by the next qbzr release. [11:29] Launchpad bug 530606 in qbzr "qbrowse chashes on branch with ghost revision." [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/530606 [11:37] GaryvdM: great [12:53] jelmer: dulwich got push --overwritten? Dropping "Fix memory leaks in error paths." ? [12:56] maxb: oops, yeah [12:57] maxb: I must've thought I forgot to dpush earlier [12:57] maxb: Thanks for pointing that out, should be fixed now. [12:57] that was fast! === mrevell is now known as mrevell-lunch === salgado_ is now known as salgado === mrevell-lunch is now known as mrevell === khmarbaise_ is now known as khmarbaise === salgado is now known as salgado-lunch [16:46] Hi vila, Are you arround ? [16:46] GaryvdM: no ? [16:46] :) [16:47] Hi [16:47] vila: I'm looking test code that creates a tree with all the different types of conflicts. [16:48] I'm batteling to grok test [16:48] *test_conflicts [16:48] GaryvdM: Yeah, tell me when you find it :) [16:48] ha, yeah, it's a work in progress [16:48] Oh [16:48] So I need to write my own. Any tips? [16:49] The best ones so far are in bt.test_conflicts [16:50] Ok - thats what I was looking at [16:50] I've started writing them as shell-like tests, but 1) that means blackbox tests 2) less precise [16:50] I started converting them to whitebox tests instead and already found a bug [16:50] So TestResolveContentConflicts is the last I wrote and the most recent [16:51] * GaryvdM looks [16:51] GaryvdM: bug qblame would tell you that :) [16:52] GaryvdM: What is your intent ? === salgado-lunch is now known as salgado [16:53] vila: Tests for bp.qbzr.lib.treewidget [16:53] Before I start fixing some of its bugs [16:53] One such bug is bug 528548 [16:53] Launchpad bug 528548 in qbzr "qbrowse: can't open tree with conflicts if conflict file has been deleted" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/528548 [16:54] hmm, then you can start with the scenarios already described in the tests [16:54] Yes - that is what I'm hoping to do. [16:55] the bug description is scarce... [16:55] As far as you're concerned, you should have to worry about whether a file is involved in a conflict, it's either versioned or unknown (or ignored) no ? [16:55] s/should/shouldn't/ [16:56] vila: I give options from qbrowse to open extmerge and resolve [16:57] GaryvdM: haa. But only for text conflicts right ? [16:58] The extmerge is only availible for text conflicts, But I show a status for All conflicts, and the option to resolve [16:58] interesting [16:59] you know you can start displaying *several* options to resolve ? [17:00] Yes. I have been ramping up on your improvement to resolve. [17:00] vila: see http://bazaarvcs.wordpress.com/2009/11/08/new-working-tree-features-in-qbzr/ for screenshot. [17:01] nice [17:02] GaryvdM: Some info on the coming features here : http://wiki.bazaar.canonical.com/VincentLadeuil/ConflictResolution [17:04] GaryvdM: Explicitly marking the file as resolved should be the exception, there are ways to mark them automatically (today for text conflicts, soon for more) [17:04] GaryvdM: Keep that in mind for the ui [17:04] ok [17:05] but as far as bzr-2.1 is concerned, you're fine with this design [17:06] It's the first time I've seen TestCaseWithTransportAndScript. That's cool [17:07] Thanks vila. [17:09] hehe [17:09] Don't abuse them though, they are good for bug reports but a bit imprecise (since they are essentially blackbox tests) [17:10] But fine for creating trees with conflicts? [17:11] GaryvdM: if you explore the history around bug #529968 you'll see why [17:11] Launchpad bug 529968 in bzr "bzr resolve --take-this fails to rename file.THIS to file on ContentConflict " [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/529968 [17:11] GaryvdM: they are fine to create any configuration you may think of [17:12] GaryvdM: but they are not the right tool for whitebox tests [17:12] ok [17:20] vila: Could you please point me to some example code again. I have a set of trees, and a set of widget tests. I want to run each test on each tree [17:21] see bzrliv.tests.test_conflicts.load_tests [17:21] your widget tests should be in classes that define attributes that are set by load_tests via a scenario [17:22] a scenario is a tuple (name, dict) [17:23] vila: there is no bzrliv.tests.test_conflicts.load_tests, but I'm looking at another load_tests :-) [17:23] name is displayed while running the tests as test_this(name) and dict contains the test class attribute names as keys and values as... values [17:23] s/bzrliv/bzrlib/ and update you bzr.dev :) [17:25] ah - the code never sleeps... [17:26] hehe [17:32] Hmm - I think I should do it the other way around. The widget configuration should be the senerio, the with a tests for different trees. === deryck is now known as deryck[lunch] === deryck[lunch] is now known as deryck === radoe_ is now known as radoe [19:36] anybody around with pipeline zen? [19:36] I've got a pipeline that I want to push all of the pipes to launchpad so that I can do lp-submit [20:11] is nested branches the best way to handle multiple branches taht depend on the same branch? [20:11] like multiple programs using a shared library [20:12] bjp: nested branches don't exist yet [20:12] it doesn't? i thought it did... [20:13] i could have sworn i tried it out a couple months ago :/ [20:13] perhaps you're using a different name? [20:13] what did you do ? [20:14] branch within a branch [20:14] oh, that works indeed - but cloning one branch won't clone the containing branches [20:15] with --bind (i think)? and their versions are tracked? [20:16] bjp: bind is for bound branches [20:16] i was looking for a way to track a couple projects with shared dependencies, nested branches (trees?) was the only thing i found about it [20:16] nested trees don't work yet; perhaps you tried one of the plugins? [20:16] i'm trying to find the web site i was reading [20:17] http://doc.bazaar.canonical.com/devnotes/nested-trees.html [20:21] is there a plugin that does something similar? [20:22] say, I bzr get lp:ubuntu/karmic/mc [20:23] is there a way of now doing bzr get lp:ubuntu/lucid/mc and share part of the history I already downloaded? [20:23] create a stacked branch e.g.? [20:23] stacked branches don't do that [20:23] repositories do [20:24] so - bzr init-repo mc [20:24] cd mc [20:24] bzr branch lp:ubuntu/lucid/mc [20:24] bzr branch lp:ubuntu/karmic/mc [20:24] mgedmin: we strongly prefer 'branch' to 'get'. [20:24] mm [20:24] jelmer: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/39998980/albatross-trunk-log.txt <- new one on me! [20:24] 'get' is shorter to type, just be happy I wasn't doing 'bzr co' ;) [20:25] (bzr-hg failure) [20:25] back to the question: I already did bzr branch for the karmic [20:26] can I bzr branch mc new-repo/mc-karmic to get it to not download the whole history again? [20:26] can I have the repository not in ../ but rather next to the branches? bzr init-repo .bzrrepo; bzr branch lp:... --using-repo=.bzrrepo ? [20:27] moin mwhudson [20:27] bjp, bzr-externals I think [20:27] bjp: I have no experience with it though [20:27] mwhudson, how's the kernel import? [20:28] jelmer: i think it got like 6k revs in or something [20:28] (staging is down for an update) [20:28] and then it failed, but in a way that didn't leave logs, so that probably means it being down for an update killed it or something [20:28] jelmer: interesting, is that the best way to handle the dependency problem until nested-trees is available? [20:29] i'm just looking for a good solution [20:29] jelmer: better than before, definitely [20:29] bjp: I'm not sure, I'm probably not the best person to ask.. === CardinalFang__ is now known as CardinalFang [20:29] mwhudson: but hopefully it'll continue after the update? [20:29] jelmer: yeah [20:29] k === salgado is now known as salgado-afk === sabdfl1 is now known as sabdfl [22:44] hello all [22:44] morning poolie [22:44] hello james_w [22:45] james_w, any special requests at the moment? [22:45] nothing special [22:45] ok [22:45] we're pretty busy this week with community reviews [22:46] i expect we will get into rebase or conflicts after they're more in hand [22:46] i liked your mail 'what is bazaar about?' [22:46] i might try to answer it more fully in a separate thread [22:47] i think essentially i want something that's very easy and straightfoward for new contributors, but that has enough power and extensibility not to hold advanced developers back [22:47] perhaps that sounds too close to 'all things to all people' [22:47] yeah, I wondered if it should be a new thread, as it could be a long discussion :-) [22:48] do you know about Personas? [22:48]