/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/03/02/#ubuntu-manual.txt

godbykhumphreybc: I don't think I've edited any Polish translations lately. The only time I touch the translations is when I'm fixing some LaTeX code that's screwed up. :)02:21
humphreybcgodbyk, hmm?02:55
godbykhumphreybc: re: the email you forwarded to the list.02:56
humphreybcoh right02:56
humphreybcnow i've got ya02:56
humphreybconly just found it in my spam toay02:56
humphreybctoday*02:56
IlyaHaykinsongodbyk: what's the easiest way to create some vertical space between paragraphs?05:40
IlyaHaykinsonis that something you should do, globally, or the writers need to do?05:40
IlyaHaykinsoni would prefer to put some space between all the paragraphs; they run too closely together.05:41
humphreybcIlyaHaykinson_: ping06:48
IlyaHaykinson_humphreybc: hi06:52
humphreybci just committed but then got a diverged branch thing because i forgot to pull first06:53
humphreybccould you make a backup of what you just edited06:53
humphreybcin case i overwrite it06:53
humphreybci don't think i will06:53
IlyaHaykinson_hm, i don't think that's possible06:53
IlyaHaykinson_if you do bzr merge, it should merge it cleanly06:53
IlyaHaykinson_so commit -- if it looks like it undid what i edited, i'll back up my stuff and re-commit or something06:53
humphreybccool06:54
* IlyaHaykinson_ is working on a major edit of the software packaging chapter07:48
humphreybcIlyaHaykinson_: care to share some details on that edit?07:58
IlyaHaykinson_just trying to bring some better organization to the writing. it kind of jumps around from simple to complex to simple08:00
ubuntujenkinshello IlyaHaykinson_,08:01
ubuntujenkinsI will have to spend a few days on using Gwibber for my self and currently it doesn't load for me. I will make a start on the hardware section. What are the other people for that chapter doing? The blueprint doesn't say.08:01
IlyaHaykinson_humphreybc: just pushed my change; more work later. if wolter logs in -- i think he'll need to do some rework there to bring this chapter up to shape, i think08:02
IlyaHaykinson_or i'll continue editing some more.08:02
IlyaHaykinson_ubuntujenkins: let me check08:02
ubuntujenkinsthanks08:02
ubuntujenkinsIl be back in 15 mins08:05
IlyaHaykinson_ubuntujenkins: I think the highest priorities for hardware are printing and sound08:07
humphreybcIlyaHaykinson_: I think wolter might have lost some interest in the project, but we'll see.08:08
IlyaHaykinson_see my proposed outline at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Blueprints/Hardware08:08
IlyaHaykinson_though note that it may not be complete (i.e. maybe we need more sections than what i included here)08:08
IlyaHaykinson_humphreybc: hm, but he was committing website things, wasn't he?08:09
humphreybcIlyaHaykinson_: i'm going to finish chapter 1 and 10 by the end of this week, been meaning to do it for the last few days but just haven't had the time08:09
humphreybcIlyaHaykinson_: yeah he was, i think he might just be tired of writing? Not sure, I haven't asked him, I thought his section was finished. Maybe he thinks it's finished too08:09
IlyaHaykinson_humphreybc: ok. i think chapter 10 needs some TLC08:10
IlyaHaykinson_some of the apps need to be removed (i.e. pitivi, since it's a default app now)08:10
humphreybcyeah i know08:10
humphreybcthat's what i'm planning on working on08:11
IlyaHaykinson_some apps need better directions (chrome is supposedly in the software center now)08:11
IlyaHaykinson_and, i think more importantly, need to align some of this with use cases08:11
IlyaHaykinson_rather than just being a list of things08:11
humphreybctrue08:12
humphreybcso like examples of why people might want to use these apps?08:12
IlyaHaykinson_hm...08:16
* IlyaHaykinson_ is looking at the chapter and thinking...08:16
IlyaHaykinson_i'm kind of thinking out loud here, so bear with me.08:17
IlyaHaykinson_why do people install new software?08:18
IlyaHaykinson_they are either 1) looking to use an alternative to something they already have08:18
IlyaHaykinson_2) trying to do something they cannot do (very well or at all) with existing software08:18
IlyaHaykinson_3) doing it for fun or learning08:18
IlyaHaykinson_so maybe we can organize it kind of like that.... first, have a few alternatives08:19
IlyaHaykinson_so have an alternative web browser, an alternative office suite, an alternative IM client, an alternative mail client08:19
IlyaHaykinson_(chrome/chromium, abiword(?), pidgin, thunderbird would be my suggestions here)08:20
IlyaHaykinson_and either list a few other alternatives with no detail, for each category, or point the reader towards some web reource08:20
IlyaHaykinson_then, list a few other things to do with Ubuntu. things like audio editing make sense (though is Jokosher really the most popular one? i thought Audacity is...)08:21
IlyaHaykinson_i would basically look through the web sites whcih aggregate software center applications08:21
IlyaHaykinson_and look for some popular categories of things people do with Ubuntu / Linux08:21
IlyaHaykinson_and then i would also list a few popular linux games, maybe.08:22
IlyaHaykinson_i don't really know anything about those...08:23
IlyaHaykinson_(for the first category -- replacement apps -- VLC also works well in this group)08:23
IlyaHaykinson_or, we can think of it this way:08:24
IlyaHaykinson_1) How to use different applications to do the same thing 2) How to do other things with Ubuntu, 3) How to become a more advanced user08:24
IlyaHaykinson_where 1) and 2) are basically what i was describing before08:25
humphreybcIlyaHaykinson_: I'm still here, reading, just going to grab some stuff from the dairy, back in 5 then i'll have a chat about it with you08:25
IlyaHaykinson_and 3) is for thigns like Gnome Do, and Wine, and Virtualbox08:25
thorwilIlyaHaykinson_: good thinking.08:25
IlyaHaykinson_humphreybc: going to Willowbank?08:26
* IlyaHaykinson_ is proud of his mad google stalking skillzz.08:26
thorwilIlyaHaykinson_: i'd think Jokosher is rather at the fringe, Audacity is widely known, even in Windows-land08:26
ubuntujenkins IlyaHaykinson I shall get started on what I can. I did a clean install the other day an empathy wasn't there has it been removed as a default ap?08:26
IlyaHaykinson_ubuntujenkins: hm, wait, really??08:27
IlyaHaykinson_hm. i last did a full install with alpha 2, i think08:27
IlyaHaykinson_and it was definitely there then08:28
ubuntujenkinsyes it wasn't there I did a clean install about 3 days ago08:28
IlyaHaykinson_i know they added gwibber08:28
IlyaHaykinson_but not at the expense of empathy, i think. it was a whole big thing when they went from pidgin to empathy in 9.10, so i would doubt they'd get rid of it right away08:28
IlyaHaykinson_especially when empathy is actually under rather active development by the gnome ppl08:28
ubuntujenkinsthere was a bug which ment the ubuntu image was larger than a cd, they could have missed it out as a tempoary thing08:29
IlyaHaykinson_must be a bug: http://www.starryhope.com/linux/ubuntu/2010/4-cool-new-features-in-ubuntu-lucid-lynx-alpha-3/08:29
IlyaHaykinson_person says that empathy now (i.e. alpha 3) includes facebook chat08:29
IlyaHaykinson_so certainly must be a bug.08:29
* ubuntujenkins remebers to write about facebook chat08:29
IlyaHaykinson_OOH! that same article says iphone / ipod touch work with rhythmbox now.08:30
IlyaHaykinson_i will need to find a way to test that out. i remember in 9.04 days i tried to get my sister's iphone to work with ANYTHIGN in Ubuntu, and failed08:31
IlyaHaykinson_had to switch her machine to Windows 7 beta08:31
ubuntujenkinsthats a move in the right direction08:31
IlyaHaykinson_thorwil: re Audacity / Jokosher, ok, glad that i'm not the only one08:32
humphreybcIlyaHaykinson_: scary... yes just come back with a bag of chips, two bags of lollies and a block of chocolate. :) give me a couple of minutes to read what i missed08:32
IlyaHaykinson_humphreybc: just wait until satellites offer live video. then it'll be --really-- freaky.08:33
humphreybcjokosher is more user friendly and garageband like than audacity, that's why i chose it08:33
humphreybci don't know anything about linux games either, other than googling "top ten linux games"08:34
ubuntujenkinsianto I have been asked to help with chapter 4, I knoticed you authored a part which parts are you writing?08:34
* IlyaHaykinson_ had to look up what "lollies" were. apparently it's an AU / NZ term08:34
humphreybci think we do need a section on Wine, at least describing what it is and where they can get more help08:34
IlyaHaykinson_humphreybc: sure, Wine could definitely fit into the "how to become a more advanced user" type of a section08:35
IlyaHaykinson_wine on its own is easy08:35
humphreybcpidgin > empathy08:35
IlyaHaykinson_but _troubleshooting_ wine requires a bit of black magic08:35
IlyaHaykinson_that is definitely beyond the grasp of beginners08:36
humphreybclollies = candy :)08:36
IlyaHaykinson_so we'd want to put that, as well as virtual machines, behind some sort of a "here's how you grow to be an advanced user" type of a section08:36
IlyaHaykinson_humphreybc: nod. after looking it up, now i know!08:36
humphreybcokay, so, i like your three section idea08:36
IlyaHaykinson_and re pidgin > empathy, i completely agree. but, alas, empathy does D-Bus08:37
humphreybcthe second 3 section idea08:37
humphreybcbut we need to rephrase the three sections08:37
humphreybcD-Bus?08:37
IlyaHaykinson_yes, please don't treat my section names as gospel. they were just off the top of my head08:37
humphreybcso "Alternatives to default apps"08:37
ubuntujenkinsI think mention wine in about five to ten line, ie this is wine you can use it to.........   to find out more google wine....08:37
humphreybchaha, yeah i know :)08:37
IlyaHaykinson_D-Bus is the (new) way for parts of the user interface to share data08:37
IlyaHaykinson_so for example, Evolution tells the notifier application that there's new email using D-Bus08:38
IlyaHaykinson_anyone else can listen to the same message, in theory, and react in their own way.08:38
humphreybc"Extra specialized applications" for section 208:38
IlyaHaykinson_Empathy speaks to D-Bus when there are new IMs08:38
humphreybcand maybe "Advanced applications" or something08:38
IlyaHaykinson_and new multimedia messages etc08:38
IlyaHaykinson_so it integrates really well with the gnome desktop08:38
IlyaHaykinson_not just now, but moving forward08:38
humphreybcbut to be honest, those three titles are fairly blurred08:38
IlyaHaykinson_whereas the Pidgin folks didn't want to go in that direction (for some reason.... nto sure on the details)08:39
IlyaHaykinson_so, Empathy won out. let's hope it gets developed rapidly.08:39
* humphreybc gummy sharks nom nom08:39
humphreybcAhh, TommyBrunn, have a look at /website/wolter-remake08:40
IlyaHaykinson_humphreybc: what about "Finding alternatives to default applications", an "Extending Ubuntu"?08:40
humphreybcwolter has used asciidoc to create HTML files for the site... not sure why, but he seemed to think it was the cool thing to do08:40
IlyaHaykinson_with Extending... being the 2 and 3 together08:40
humphreybcyeah combining 2 and 3 is good08:40
humphreybcdo we need the "Finding"?08:41
humphreybcjust "Alternatives to default applications" could work?08:41
IlyaHaykinson_well, i like having titles that contain a verb in gerund form.08:41
humphreybcbut hang on08:41
IlyaHaykinson_otherwise it has no verb at all.08:41
humphreybcwe've already given them the means to find alternative apps by explaining the software store08:41
humphreybcso what we're *really* doing is recommending some *good* apps08:41
IlyaHaykinson_true.08:41
IlyaHaykinson_good point08:41
IlyaHaykinson_ok, your title (no "Finding") is fine.08:42
humphreybchmm08:42
humphreybcbut even then, we need to explain that these are recommendations based on... what?08:42
humphreybcsort of like "Chef's choice" in a restaurant...08:42
humphreybcwe've just taken a few apps that *we* have decided08:42
* humphreybc realizes that if he is ever going to get round to watching the movie that he's had for a few days, he'd have to do it now08:43
IlyaHaykinson_well, if you remember my talk/slides, and the style guide, it's ok for us to be slightly opinionated.08:43
humphreybcyep08:43
IlyaHaykinson_i would err on the side of most commonly used alternatives08:43
humphreybcyeah08:44
IlyaHaykinson_and/or the most mature / complete alternatives08:44
humphreybcthat's a better way of putting it08:44
IlyaHaykinson_those should generally overlap08:44
IlyaHaykinson_and also we don't need to be exclusive08:44
humphreybcokay, so, list of alternatives08:44
humphreybcfirstly, what are the main default apps people want alternatives for?08:44
IlyaHaykinson_we can do a paragraph on Chrome, but then list (one word each) the next three popular web browsers (i dunno... epiphany, konqueror, elinks???)08:44
humphreybcme personally, firefox, pidgin, GIMP, F-Spot08:44
IlyaHaykinson_GIMP is standard, is it not?08:45
IlyaHaykinson_oh.08:45
humphreybcoh wait08:45
IlyaHaykinson_you mean alternatives08:45
humphreybcit's not anymore08:45
humphreybcyeah08:45
humphreybcso to get a list of alternatives, we have to start off with a list of stuff they're replacing08:45
IlyaHaykinson_GIMP isn't? hmm. it was in alpha 1 at least, possibly alpha 208:45
IlyaHaykinson_ah, you are right.08:45
humphreybcso on my fresh install i remove F-Spot, empathy and install chrome, digiKam and pidgin08:45
IlyaHaykinson_ok, gimp isn't really an alternative.08:46
ubuntujenkinsgimp isn't in lucid08:46
IlyaHaykinson_it's more an add on (i.e. for "extending")08:46
humphreybcyeah, gimp would come under the second bit08:46
humphreybcthe extension bit08:46
* humphreybc ahh, the sweet smell of progress08:46
IlyaHaykinson_ok, so firefox -> chrome (+konqueror, epiphany)08:46
humphreybcwell, opera?08:46
IlyaHaykinson_opera isn't open source. i'd leave this at open source apps for now08:46
humphreybcmidori?08:47
IlyaHaykinson_flock?08:47
humphreybcteminal?08:47
IlyaHaykinson_we can check what the most popular linux browsers are.08:47
humphreybcterminal ftw08:47
humphreybchttp://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/k4qQtQHrDz08:47
IlyaHaykinson_hang on, i'll check on my work's google analytics08:47
humphreybclet's move this to a pad :)08:47
* humphreybc has finished one bag of lollies08:51
thorwilvish: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/hgBlhqyoMH09:25
IlyaHaykinson_alright, gnite folks.09:38
ubuntujenkinsnight09:39
vishthorwil: those are the list of icons required , right?13:31
thorwilvish: i'm not sure if Ben had only that level in mind, but one level deeper would be too many13:32
vishyeah..13:32
vishi'll collect the icons e already have and add it to the branch13:33
vishs/e/the13:33
thorwilvish: so i added lists for what's all in each chapter as # comments13:33
vishargh! e=we13:33
thorwilvish: and finally the few ideas i have13:33
thorwilvish: Default Applications, Troubleshooting and Learning_more make me wonder if we should really do it at all13:34
* vish nods13:35
vishhmm , whats wrong with bzr :/13:35
godbykthorwil, vish: for the installation chapter: do most people know what a hard drive looks like?  might be better of going with a CD (as in the install CD) instead.14:04
vishthat would work too14:05
thorwilperhaps14:05
vishgodbyk: whats wrong with bzr?  it doesnt allow me to pull14:05
godbykvish: lemme try.14:05
vishkeeps saying some crap about my unprotected key file :/14:05
thorwilgodbyk: the "harddrive" would be just a box in that icon style, anyway14:06
vishwhy does it care :/14:06
godbykvish: it's working for me.14:06
godbykvish: ah, make sure the permissions of your .ssh/id_rsa file are 644.14:06
godbyker, sorry, 600.14:06
vishhmm , is this something new?14:06
godbykvish: I think ssh complains if the permissions are other.14:07
godbykNot sure if that's what the actual problem is or not.14:07
godbykJust taking a shot in the dark.14:07
vishworked so long with the same perms14:07
thorwilvish: you are not protecting your key file? do you not think about how it must feel, neglected and without cover?14:07
vishbleh ;p14:07
godbyklol14:07
* thorwil -> coffee14:09
godbykvish: The ~/.ssh dir should be 700, also.14:09
vishfunny thing is it worked so long  , not sure if the file permissions changed or bzr changed14:10
godbykdid that fix it?14:10
vishi havent tried yet , will be doing it in a sec14:10
godbykk14:11
godbykthorwil: Have you done anything more with the cover page or are we still waiting on some big announcement from Ubuntu?14:18
godbyk(just curious, not pressuring!) :-)14:18
vishgodbyk: is there a way to read the file permissions as numbers rather than using ls -l ?14:27
godbykvish: I don't know of one, but it wouldn't surprise me if it existed.14:28
godbykthe .ssh dir should be rwx------14:28
godbykthe .ssh/id_rsa file should be rw-------14:29
vishyeah , right now it is 644 , need to change that14:29
godbykvish: chmod 700 ~/.ssh; chmod 600 ~/.ssh/id_rsa14:29
vishyup just did that14:30
vishhmm , now it works14:30
vishi mean bzr works now.. but i hadnt changed the file permissions  , wonder what did that14:31
vishthe directory was having the right permissions already , but not sure how the key file permissions got changed..14:32
godbykvish: good question!14:32
vishthere is a bug in gnome-keyring , maybe it is related14:32
vishlucid got a gnome-keyring update , that is causing a lot of havoc.. but thats a long shot14:33
vishnope , not it , the update predates my last bzr interaction14:36
godbykI just updated http://ubuntu-manual.org/builds/ for anyone who cares.14:43
thorwilgodbyk: no, yes15:27
godbykthorwil: heh. understood.15:29
BlessJahhi, i'm currently translating ubuntu manual15:52
BlessJah\providecommand{\polang}{en} what should be translated here?15:52
BlessJahshould I translate last part? {en} to {pl}?15:55
godbykBlessJah: Nope, you should leave that line as-is.16:33
BlessJahwhat does this line means?16:35
godbykBlessJah: The \providecommand line?  It means: "if the \polang command hasn't already been define, define is to mean 'en'."17:07
godbykWhen you run 'make ubuntu-manual-pl.pdf', it sets '\def\polang{pl}'.17:07
godbykthen \polang is passed in as \documentclass[lang=\polang]{ubuntu-manual}17:08
BlessJahok, so it shouldn't be changed into {pl}17:08
godbykso it's telling the manual what language is being compiled.17:08
godbykBlessJah: The \providecommand line is just setting 'en' as the default language if a language hasn't already been set.17:08
godbykBlessJah: But the language is being set in the Makefile.17:08
BlessJahok17:09
BlessJahthx17:09
godbykSo you can leave the \providecommand line alone.  It doesn't need to be changed.17:09
godbykBlessJah: no problem. :)17:09
humphreybcTommyBrunn: ping21:46
komsasgodbyk: if I wrote in translation dash, it is better to change it to /dash?21:59
komsashe, my ping killed him. :)21:59
komsasdutchie: do you know something about this?22:02
dutchieif you are translating \dash{text}, put \dash{translated text}22:03
komsasno, there no dash in english line, but in our translation is22:03
komsaswhat to do in this position?22:03
dutchieoh, so your language has a dash where there is not one in the English?22:04
komsasyes22:04
* dutchie is unsure22:04
komsasit is problem?22:04
* dutchie is not really in ubuntu-manual mode atm22:04
dutchiejust put \dash for now, godbyk will complain if it's wrong22:04
komsasoh dutchie, sorry I did read your question right22:05
komsaswe have same dash22:05
humphreybcyou don't want to translate the command, but the text inside the command (the braces)22:05
dutchiecould you show us the text you are translating?22:05
dutchieit should give a file reference iirc22:06
komsasbut I'm asking if there no dash in english string and I use dash like "-" in lithuanian translation, it is better to use latex command or I can use "-"22:06
dutchiejust use your initiative for now22:07
dutchieask godbyk when he's back22:07
komsasok dutchie , thanks u22:07
humphreybcubuntujenkins: ping22:12
* humphreybc is meeting up with Launchpad's release manager for coffee this afternoon22:26
* dutchie thinks that writing a python program to do his physics homework was overkill22:28
* humphreybc thinks that if dutchie likes python so much mebbe he should help with quickshot22:28
humphreybc:P22:28
dutchie:P22:29
dutchieI have been providing ubuntujenkins with hints22:29
humphreybclol22:29
dutchieand I have a copy of the branch22:29
humphreybcokay cool22:29
humphreybci'm fearing for the screenshots now22:29
dutchieI never really got round to working out how quickly works properly22:29
humphreybcme neither, all i use is quickly run and quickly glade :D22:30
* dutchie is busy using E = mc² for now22:30
humphreybchehe22:30
humphreybcdutchie, fire stuff at me for a to do list22:33
humphreybcfor the project22:33
humphreybclike, detailed stuff22:33
humphreybcnot "complete chapter 10"22:33
humphreybcand not just for me22:33
humphreybci'm putting it on the wiki22:33
humphreybcin response to comment from Chris Lees, http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/03/omg-ubuntu-manual-project-gets-website.html22:33
dutchieoh god22:34
dutchiemore publicity22:34
humphreybcmore publicity, yes22:34
humphreybc:)22:34
humphreybcalso there's a quickshot post going up soon too22:34
dutchiebtw, ubuntu-manual.org is full of fail on IE722:34
dutchienot sure if we should care22:34
humphreybcubuntujenkins: https://edge.launchpad.net/tarmac22:35
humphreybcreally?22:35
humphreybcscreenshot please?22:35
dutchiedon't have a windows box handy now22:36
dutchiehmm, everything works fine up to the point where I convert from J to MeV22:36
humphreybcme neither22:36
humphreybclol22:36
humphreybcill ask my flatmate if he's around22:36
dutchieah, I had the charge on an electron as 1.6e-2922:37
ubuntujenkinshumphreybc and dutchie I am just finishing a group meeting I will talk in ten mins when I  get home if thats ok22:37
dutchiesilly me22:37
ubuntujenkinssee you in the?22:38
ubuntujenkins*ten22:38
humphreybcsure22:42
komsasgodbyk: If I want to use dash in translation, but there is no dash in english line, it is better to use latex code /dash or I can use "-" ?22:48
humphreybchi Red_HamsterX :)22:49
Red_HamsterXHi.22:49
Red_HamsterXSo, as shadwick was asking, what do you need help with?22:49
Red_HamsterXAside from grabbing screencaps.22:49
humphreybcso, basically the manual project is to create a fully fledged, community based, up to date beginners manual with 200 pages, 50 screenshots or so and 40+ languages22:50
humphreybcwell practically everything - we've only got one python developer working on it, TommyBrunn22:50
humphreybcand ubuntujenkins is working on it too22:50
humphreybci'm trying my best to help with the UI22:50
humphreybcbut the main problem we have is time22:50
shadwickhello22:51
humphreybcbecause the manual needs to be ready for Lucid, we need the screenshots before the 20th April22:51
humphreybcgetting 2000 consistent screenshots in 40+ languages is a hard undertaking22:51
humphreybcso i came up with the idea for quickshot22:51
humphreybcwhich automates a lot of the process22:51
ubuntujenkinsback again22:51
shadwickI think it's a great idea22:51
humphreybcwe also need the default ubuntu theme for Lucid, so it creates a new user etc22:52
* ubuntujenkins checks logs22:52
humphreybcshadwick: thanks. we're hoping to make it flexible enough so that other documentation projects can use it too.22:52
Red_HamsterXI shouldn't have any trouble dedicating a system for the beta releases.22:52
Red_HamsterXAnd I'm not bad with Python (projects at uguu.ca).22:53
TommyBrunnRed_HamsterX: Even if you don't have a spare system, you could probably do it in a virtual machine.22:53
humphreybcbut at the moment we're in a bit of trouble because a) I came up with the idea too late (my fault) and b) we've only got two people working on it actively, it's proving more complicated than anticipated22:53
humphreybcour project has a huge emphasis on simplicity22:53
Red_HamsterXBut I'm very short on time.22:53
ubuntujenkinsright well I can say I need serious help :-022:53
Red_HamsterXThat's what I meant TommyBrunn.22:53
Red_HamsterX+comma22:53
humphreybcwe want to make it as easy as possible for contributors to help with UMP, so we have a tonne of stuff in place to make it easy for them to help out. That's what we want to do with Quickshot, make it so anyone can use it22:53
Red_HamsterXWhat do you need the most help with, Python-wise, TommyBrunn, ubuntujenkins?22:54
humphreybcwe'd like it ready for the Ubuntu Global Jam so we can get hundreds of people screenshotting22:54
godbykkomsas: Use \dash.22:54
* ubuntujenkins has spent 3.5 hours staring at a ~1000 cell spreedsheet22:54
* komsas going to change translation..22:54
humphreybcRed_HamsterX, shadwick, how much do you guys know about bzr and launchpad?22:54
TommyBrunnCurrently we pretty much need help with everything. The first thing that springs to mind though, is a way to parse the screenshots branch and somehow serialize the information for each screenshot.22:55
ubuntujenkinsso that I can add the screen res detect to main I really need a timer mecahnism22:55
Red_HamsterXhumphreybc, I'm a bit weak on bzr, though I'm very familiar with svn.22:55
ubuntujenkinsI am looking at the bzr lark22:55
TommyBrunnSee, every screenshot will have some sort of information on what should be in it, what language it should be in, etc.22:55
humphreybci'm meeting up with the release manager for launchpad today for coffee22:55
Red_HamsterXI was working with the Ubuntu documentation team in preparation for 5.04, so Launchpad's mostly familiar.22:55
Red_HamsterXThough it's changed a fair bit since then.22:55
TommyBrunnWe need to somehow format that in a consistent manner, so that it can be read by Quickshot.22:55
ubuntujenkinsthere are branches for each language here https://code.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-screenshots?field.lifecycle=ALL22:56
humphreybcto discuss the best way to work with the data on launchpad. he has suggested https://launchpad.net/tarmac22:56
ubuntujenkinsI have written a script to merge them to main. I will look at tarmac tomorrow22:56
humphreybcof course we want consistency across all of our translated manuals and within the manuals themselves - which means that stuff like dpi, resolution, theme etc have to be pre-determined and set correctly22:56
humphreybcubuntujenkins: oh nice you've done some of the languages :D22:56
ubuntujenkinsyou have to change the status to any status the merging means they change status to merged but they still work22:57
ubuntujenkinsif they add any more languages :P22:57
TommyBrunnAnyway, I need to be off to bed now. I'm sick as a dog, and so I need all the rest I can get. Hopefully I can be of more help once I get better. If there are any questions that ubuntujenkins or humphreybc can't answer, feel free to email them to me at tommy.brunn@gmail.com22:58
humphreybcyep, and also email me at humphreybc@gmail.com or catch me on google talk - it goes to my cellphone and i'll reply pretty much immediately unless i'm asleep22:58
ubuntujenkinsRed_HamsterX I could really do with some help with one last bit on the screen resolution stuff then it can go into main for testing22:58
shadwickwell as cool as this project is, I don't think I'll be able to help out22:59
shadwickbest of luck though22:59
Red_HamsterXubuntujenkins, just point me at the code and leave a "todo" block of comments and I'll see what I can hack out. I'm in UTC-7.22:59
ubuntujenkinsI will give you an explination and add TODOs in a moment, my branch is untidy as I use it for experiments.23:00
Red_HamsterXI'll do my best to mirror your style.23:00
ubuntujenkinsthats sounds good though.23:00
ubuntujenkinsit fine I will add all of the screen res change to a seperatef ile for main23:01
ubuntujenkinsI am just changing permissons for my branch23:01
Red_HamsterX(I'll likely be unable to do much today, though. I won't be home 'til late and I need to be up early tomorrow. I'll look over the code and make note of what I already know how to do, though)23:01
humphreybcRed_HamsterX: if you want to just hang out in here and we can chat about quickshot stuff. i have to update the wiki at some point too23:02
humphreybcsweet23:02
ubuntujenkinsare you on the quickshot devs team? Red...23:02
humphreybcso, our target completion date is the 18th March for a working version, 31st March for a stable version23:02
humphreybcI know that's less than 3 weeks away23:02
humphreybcwe have a plan B if quickshot isn't ready23:02
humphreybcRed_HamsterX: what's your lp username and i'll add you to the quickshot devs23:02
humphreybcubuntujenkins: should we make it an open team23:03
humphreybc?23:03
Red_HamsterXI figured I'd just give you patches like with most other projects.23:03
ubuntujenkinserm can we add more people who can approve members?23:03
humphreybcyeah i'll make you an admin23:03
humphreybcand Tommy23:03
ubuntujenkinsRed_Hamster my e-mail is ubuntujenkins@googlemail.com23:03
ubuntujenkinscheers ben23:04
Red_HamsterXhttps://edge.launchpad.net/~red-hamsterx23:04
ubuntujenkinsRed_Hamster bzr branch lp:~quickshotdevs/quickshot/luke-quickshot is my branch I will make some changes before I go to bed23:04
Red_HamsterXYou should be able to get what you need from that.23:04
Red_HamsterXI'm on Google Talk at red.hamsterx@gmail.com.23:04
humphreybcwhat's your real name for my contacts list?23:05
Red_HamsterXNeil Tallim; it's what I broadcast anyway.23:05
humphreybcsweet23:05
* humphreybc needs to have lunch soon23:06
humphreybcRed_HamsterX: I'm +13 btw23:06
humphreybcNZ23:07
dutchie\o/23:07
Red_HamsterXThat explains why you said 'lunch' and not 'sleep'.23:07
ubuntujenkinswhen the user clicks the button to change their resolution a new window pops up. In this window there is a button that has to be  to clicked with in  seconds or they are logged out. The 15 seconds deley doesn't exist I know the loog out command23:07
dutchiehttp://media.joshh.co.uk/graph.png produced using 75 lines of Python23:07
ubuntujenkins@ Red_HamsterX23:07
manualbotubuntujenkins: Error: "Red_HamsterX" is not a valid command.23:07
Red_HamsterXLawl, bot.23:07
* ubuntujenkins is tired23:08
dutchiedon't be mean to manualbot23:08
ubuntujenkinsI will point out I have all most no python skills at all. with help from dutchie #python and #ubuntu-app-devel is how I have got stuff this far23:09
humphreybci'm taking a python paper but only just started, so i'm fairly useless too23:09
ubuntujenkinsI had done a little past hello world about 2 years ago and now I am trying to help on a program23:10
dutchiehumphreybc: there are other Ubuntu people in NZ?23:10
dutchiewow23:10
Red_HamsterXI contribute patches against the issue-tracker when I can, so I can probably help compensate.23:10
humphreybcdutchie, yes there are! even one or two canonical employees23:10
humphreybcmpt is from NZ :)23:10
dutchieyeah, but he's in a proper country now23:10
dutchie:P23:10
ubuntujenkinsI am adding coments to my branch now23:10
humphreybcdutchie: ..23:11
humphreybcRed_HamsterX: added you as a member of Quickshot devs23:11
Red_HamsterXWho's mpt?23:11
humphreybcalso, guys, just a heads up - there's a post going up on omgubuntu.co.uk very soon about quickshot and asking for help with the python - so if we get an influx of people wanting to help, that's where they're from :)23:12
Red_HamsterXWow. Dev access after fifteen minutes. That's a first.23:12
Red_HamsterXWhat if I'm, like, totally malicious?23:12
humphreybcwe trust you :)23:12
humphreybc(btw our project is a bit weird because i'm in charge)23:12
humphreybc:)23:12
Red_HamsterXWeird's good.23:12
humphreybcmpt is one of the lead Ubuntu UI designers for Canonical23:12
dutchiehe's head of the User Interaction team iirc23:13
Red_HamsterXAh. Then I have not spoken with him.23:13
humphreybcyeah, good guy23:13
dutchieI have attended a talk by him23:13
humphreybcdutchie: UDS-M is in brussels, feel like making a trip there?23:13
humphreybcalso, Red_HamsterX, ubuntujenkins, look into: https://edge.launchpad.net/tarmac23:14
dutchienot espaecially if I have to pay23:14
ubuntujenkinson my to do list already23:14
dutchieI was going to have a vague look at dates and things23:14
humphreybchttp://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/aA6ygCXL9F << to do list23:14
humphreybc(for new contributors, will go on the wiki)23:15
humphreybcLuke, can you add some quickshot stuff for our new python peeps?23:16
humphreybcgodbyk: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/aA6ygCXL9F23:17
ubuntujenkinsI will try to my list is getting longer by the day I am also wrting more for other chapters as well23:17
ubuntujenkinsbit like your ben :-)23:17
dutchieemail me a list of things you need doing, and I may investigate23:19
humphreybcheh23:19
dutchiebut it is now bedtime23:19
humphreybci'm spending so much time talking to people nowadays23:19
Red_HamsterXYou are.23:20
Red_HamsterXOoh. A real-time notepad. Neat.23:21
dutchieit has also been called "Multiplayer notepad"23:22
* Red_HamsterX waits for Launchpad to finish its GPG propagation stuff.23:24
godbykhumphreybc: Is what's-his-name going to be doing our site or what's the story there. Looks like Wolter's been busy hacking on it. No sense having two people running in different directions.23:28
godbyk(I haven't looked at Wolter's site yet.)23:28
humphreybchaven't heard from brett alton yet23:29
humphreybcso for now it's wolter23:29
godbyk'kay.23:29
godbykshould I switch the test site to wolter's dir sometime?23:29
ubuntujenkinsRed_HamsterX I have updated my branch please don't merge it with main as there is some trickry going on in it that will be messed up. There is a TODO in line 22323:30
ubuntujenkinsthanks :-)23:30
humphreybcgodbyk, maybe in a couple of days23:30
humphreybcyeah so i don't know if you guys caught it23:31
humphreybcbut on the 26th March there will be a post on omgubuntu asking readers to download the latest revision (it'll just be attached to the post) and crawl over it for spelling mistakes, grammar etc23:31
humphreybcthey'll be directed to bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual23:32
humphreybcso about that time we'll have hundreds of bugs coming in :)23:32
ubuntujenkinsyey :P23:32
humphreybcit gives us 5 (five!) days to fix all the bugs before writing freeze on the 31st23:32
ubuntujenkinswoo!23:32
godbykwon't that be fun!23:33
ubuntujenkinsI know23:33
humphreybchehe23:33
humphreybcoh and python devs, every time i talk to jono he asks me to contribute snippets: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PythonSnippets23:33
humphreybci told him once we have some solid code to submit, we will23:33
humphreybcjust something else to keep in mind23:33
ubuntujenkinsThink looking at the list we need more people to help23:35
godbykubuntujenkins: more people to help with what?23:35
ubuntujenkinsthe massive list on http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/aA6ygCXL9F23:36
humphreybcwe always need more people :D23:36
humphreybcokay we need authors for chapter 623:39
ubuntujenkinsshotgun not23:40
humphreybclol23:40
ubuntujenkinsI have just facebooked a mate to try and get him to help23:40
humphreybcgroovy23:40
* ubuntujenkins looks at tarmac23:41
godbykdo we think that the quickshot stuff will be ready in time?  how much will it script things and how much will rely on the user?23:41
humphreybcgodbyk: probably not going to be ready in time unless we get another 2 python coders at least23:42
godbykit'd take more developer time (but would help with consistency and take less user time) if the screenshots were taken programmatically.23:42
humphreybcyup23:43
humphreybcthat's the aim23:43
godbyke.g., it knows how to run program X, runs it, gets it to the proper state and position on the screen and takes the screenshot all on its own.23:43
ubuntujenkinsI don't know if tramac turns out allright and the taking screenshots is done then we might get it done23:43
humphreybcokay so, what chapters are actually _completed_23:43
humphreybc?23:43
godbyknormally, I'd jump on board and try to help out more with quickshot but I have my hands full at the moment. :)23:44
godbykdon't we have editors assigned to each chapter? maybe they should run through and sign off on their chapters.23:44
humphreybcgodbyk: that's fine, the latex is more important23:44
ubuntujenkinskklimonda you wanted to help with quickshot, please  remind what skills have you got?23:44
humphreybcyep we need to find jamin23:44
godbykmake a list of what sections are unfinished and give a status report.23:44
kklimondaubuntujenkins: I can handle both Python and C23:45
ubuntujenkinssory it too so long to get back to you but I now know where we are at again23:45
ubuntujenkinsTommyBrunn are you still up?23:45
humphreybcnah he's gone to sleep23:46
cmmtessierJust joined on to help - don't mind to do some editing - where should I begin chapter1?23:46
ubuntujenkinskklimonda have a look at bzr branch lp:~quickshotdevs/quickshot/luke-quickshot please and line 233 it in a mess I will tidy it up. between you and Red_HamsterX could get that functionality working that would be good23:47
ubuntujenkinsguys do quickly run to run it and do quickly run -r to remove the user23:47
humphreybcokay, so i'm meeting with Tim in about 2 hours, give me stuff to ask him23:47
ubuntujenkinswho is he again?23:48
humphreybcLaunchpad release manager23:48
humphreybcworks for canonical23:48
humphreybcworks on bzr and launchpad23:48
humphreybci'm actually physically meeting up with him for coffee23:48
semioticroboticta da23:49
humphreybccmmtessier: basically anything you can see that needs work23:49
humphreybchi semioticrobotic!23:49
humphreybccmmtessier: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/aA6ygCXL9F23:49
epkugelmassI propose putting that in the topic23:49
humphreybchehe23:50
humphreybcjust about to do that :)23:50
ubuntujenkinsbasically we could do with the authentication thing sorted. I am tinkering with tarmac I am wondering how http://doctormo.ubuntu-ma.us/2010/03/01/launchpad-moving-to-closed-source-auth/ that effects us23:50
epkugelmassok =]23:50
=== humphreybc changed the topic of #ubuntu-manual to: Ubuntu Manual Project discussion | Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual | Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual | IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com | Ubuntu Guidelines: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines | Code of Conduct: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct/ | TODO LIST: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/aA6ygCXL9F
humphreybcanyone know how to make text red on a wiki?23:52
ubuntujenkinshumphreybc what i really need to know is how to add an ssh key to launchpad through commands at a VERY quick glance tarmac deals with https://help.launchpad.net/API/launchpadlib23:52
ubuntujenkinsno I am afraid not23:53
humphreybcubuntujenkins: okay i'll ask him about how we can do stuff like that23:53
ubuntujenkinsthnaks I am off to bed night23:53
humphreybcnight23:54
* humphreybc is off to make some lunch23:54
ubuntujenkinshumphreybc please ask does authorizing an app through https://help.launchpad.net/API/launchpadlib (OAuth) allow bzr branch pushes23:55
humphreybckk23:55
* ubuntujenkins is really of to bed now23:55
humphreybci suggest everyone bookmarks the etherpad23:55
ubuntujenkinsthanks night all23:55
godbykhumphreybc: When you do the omg editors thing, you should establish a standard format for the bug reporting so that it's easy to see what's been reported already (so we don't have to triage a bunch of duplicates).23:56
humphreybcyep23:56
humphreybcwill d23:57
humphreybcdo*23:57
humphreybcstuff like page number, revision number, all that sort of stuff.23:57
godbykThe bug's subject line should be like 'ch X, p Y, "words that are wrong" -> "words that are right"23:57
godbykor something like that.23:57
godbykright.23:57
godbykhopefully they'll all be on the same PDF23:57
godbykthat way the page numbers are the same throughout.23:57
semioticroboticwhich version of the manual are we giving to omg?  Beta?  RC?23:59
godbykhumphreybc: I like the google analytics report for the new site.. goes from 0 to 122 visitors in a single day.23:59
Red_HamsterXThere. Launchpad stuff taken care of and code of conduct signed. Yay.23:59
humphreybchehe23:59
godbyksemioticrobotic: Probably the latest of whatever we've got at the time.23:59
humphreybcwell it's on Planet Ubuntu and omgubuntu23:59

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