[02:21] <godbyk> humphreybc: I don't think I've edited any Polish translations lately. The only time I touch the translations is when I'm fixing some LaTeX code that's screwed up. :)
[02:55] <humphreybc> godbyk, hmm?
[02:56] <godbyk> humphreybc: re: the email you forwarded to the list.
[02:56] <humphreybc> oh right
[02:56] <humphreybc> now i've got ya
[02:56] <humphreybc> only just found it in my spam toay
[02:56] <humphreybc> today*
[05:40] <IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: what's the easiest way to create some vertical space between paragraphs?
[05:40] <IlyaHaykinson> is that something you should do, globally, or the writers need to do?
[05:41] <IlyaHaykinson> i would prefer to put some space between all the paragraphs; they run too closely together.
[06:48] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson_: ping
[06:52] <IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: hi
[06:53] <humphreybc> i just committed but then got a diverged branch thing because i forgot to pull first
[06:53] <humphreybc> could you make a backup of what you just edited
[06:53] <humphreybc> in case i overwrite it
[06:53] <humphreybc> i don't think i will
[06:53] <IlyaHaykinson_> hm, i don't think that's possible
[06:53] <IlyaHaykinson_> if you do bzr merge, it should merge it cleanly
[06:53] <IlyaHaykinson_> so commit -- if it looks like it undid what i edited, i'll back up my stuff and re-commit or something
[06:54] <humphreybc> cool
[07:48]  * IlyaHaykinson_ is working on a major edit of the software packaging chapter
[07:58] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson_: care to share some details on that edit?
[08:00] <IlyaHaykinson_> just trying to bring some better organization to the writing. it kind of jumps around from simple to complex to simple
[08:01] <ubuntujenkins> hello IlyaHaykinson_,
[08:01] <ubuntujenkins> I will have to spend a few days on using Gwibber for my self and currently it doesn't load for me. I will make a start on the hardware section. What are the other people for that chapter doing? The blueprint doesn't say.
[08:02] <IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: just pushed my change; more work later. if wolter logs in -- i think he'll need to do some rework there to bring this chapter up to shape, i think
[08:02] <IlyaHaykinson_> or i'll continue editing some more.
[08:02] <IlyaHaykinson_> ubuntujenkins: let me check
[08:02] <ubuntujenkins> thanks
[08:05] <ubuntujenkins> Il be back in 15 mins
[08:07] <IlyaHaykinson_> ubuntujenkins: I think the highest priorities for hardware are printing and sound
[08:08] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson_: I think wolter might have lost some interest in the project, but we'll see.
[08:08] <IlyaHaykinson_> see my proposed outline at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Blueprints/Hardware
[08:08] <IlyaHaykinson_> though note that it may not be complete (i.e. maybe we need more sections than what i included here)
[08:09] <IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: hm, but he was committing website things, wasn't he?
[08:09] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson_: i'm going to finish chapter 1 and 10 by the end of this week, been meaning to do it for the last few days but just haven't had the time
[08:09] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson_: yeah he was, i think he might just be tired of writing? Not sure, I haven't asked him, I thought his section was finished. Maybe he thinks it's finished too
[08:10] <IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: ok. i think chapter 10 needs some TLC
[08:10] <IlyaHaykinson_> some of the apps need to be removed (i.e. pitivi, since it's a default app now)
[08:10] <humphreybc> yeah i know
[08:11] <humphreybc> that's what i'm planning on working on
[08:11] <IlyaHaykinson_> some apps need better directions (chrome is supposedly in the software center now)
[08:11] <IlyaHaykinson_> and, i think more importantly, need to align some of this with use cases
[08:11] <IlyaHaykinson_> rather than just being a list of things
[08:12] <humphreybc> true
[08:12] <humphreybc> so like examples of why people might want to use these apps?
[08:16] <IlyaHaykinson_> hm...
[08:16]  * IlyaHaykinson_ is looking at the chapter and thinking...
[08:17] <IlyaHaykinson_> i'm kind of thinking out loud here, so bear with me.
[08:18] <IlyaHaykinson_> why do people install new software?
[08:18] <IlyaHaykinson_> they are either 1) looking to use an alternative to something they already have
[08:18] <IlyaHaykinson_> 2) trying to do something they cannot do (very well or at all) with existing software
[08:18] <IlyaHaykinson_> 3) doing it for fun or learning
[08:19] <IlyaHaykinson_> so maybe we can organize it kind of like that.... first, have a few alternatives
[08:19] <IlyaHaykinson_> so have an alternative web browser, an alternative office suite, an alternative IM client, an alternative mail client
[08:20] <IlyaHaykinson_> (chrome/chromium, abiword(?), pidgin, thunderbird would be my suggestions here)
[08:20] <IlyaHaykinson_> and either list a few other alternatives with no detail, for each category, or point the reader towards some web reource
[08:21] <IlyaHaykinson_> then, list a few other things to do with Ubuntu. things like audio editing make sense (though is Jokosher really the most popular one? i thought Audacity is...)
[08:21] <IlyaHaykinson_> i would basically look through the web sites whcih aggregate software center applications
[08:21] <IlyaHaykinson_> and look for some popular categories of things people do with Ubuntu / Linux
[08:22] <IlyaHaykinson_> and then i would also list a few popular linux games, maybe.
[08:23] <IlyaHaykinson_> i don't really know anything about those...
[08:23] <IlyaHaykinson_> (for the first category -- replacement apps -- VLC also works well in this group)
[08:24] <IlyaHaykinson_> or, we can think of it this way:
[08:24] <IlyaHaykinson_> 1) How to use different applications to do the same thing 2) How to do other things with Ubuntu, 3) How to become a more advanced user
[08:25] <IlyaHaykinson_> where 1) and 2) are basically what i was describing before
[08:25] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson_: I'm still here, reading, just going to grab some stuff from the dairy, back in 5 then i'll have a chat about it with you
[08:25] <IlyaHaykinson_> and 3) is for thigns like Gnome Do, and Wine, and Virtualbox
[08:25] <thorwil> IlyaHaykinson_: good thinking.
[08:26] <IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: going to Willowbank?
[08:26]  * IlyaHaykinson_ is proud of his mad google stalking skillzz.
[08:26] <thorwil> IlyaHaykinson_: i'd think Jokosher is rather at the fringe, Audacity is widely known, even in Windows-land
[08:26] <ubuntujenkins>  IlyaHaykinson I shall get started on what I can. I did a clean install the other day an empathy wasn't there has it been removed as a default ap?
[08:27] <IlyaHaykinson_> ubuntujenkins: hm, wait, really??
[08:27] <IlyaHaykinson_> hm. i last did a full install with alpha 2, i think
[08:28] <IlyaHaykinson_> and it was definitely there then
[08:28] <ubuntujenkins> yes it wasn't there I did a clean install about 3 days ago
[08:28] <IlyaHaykinson_> i know they added gwibber
[08:28] <IlyaHaykinson_> but not at the expense of empathy, i think. it was a whole big thing when they went from pidgin to empathy in 9.10, so i would doubt they'd get rid of it right away
[08:28] <IlyaHaykinson_> especially when empathy is actually under rather active development by the gnome ppl
[08:29] <ubuntujenkins> there was a bug which ment the ubuntu image was larger than a cd, they could have missed it out as a tempoary thing
[08:29] <IlyaHaykinson_> must be a bug: http://www.starryhope.com/linux/ubuntu/2010/4-cool-new-features-in-ubuntu-lucid-lynx-alpha-3/
[08:29] <IlyaHaykinson_> person says that empathy now (i.e. alpha 3) includes facebook chat
[08:29] <IlyaHaykinson_> so certainly must be a bug.
[08:29]  * ubuntujenkins remebers to write about facebook chat
[08:30] <IlyaHaykinson_> OOH! that same article says iphone / ipod touch work with rhythmbox now.
[08:31] <IlyaHaykinson_> i will need to find a way to test that out. i remember in 9.04 days i tried to get my sister's iphone to work with ANYTHIGN in Ubuntu, and failed
[08:31] <IlyaHaykinson_> had to switch her machine to Windows 7 beta
[08:31] <ubuntujenkins> thats a move in the right direction
[08:32] <IlyaHaykinson_> thorwil: re Audacity / Jokosher, ok, glad that i'm not the only one
[08:32] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson_: scary... yes just come back with a bag of chips, two bags of lollies and a block of chocolate. :) give me a couple of minutes to read what i missed
[08:33] <IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: just wait until satellites offer live video. then it'll be --really-- freaky.
[08:33] <humphreybc> jokosher is more user friendly and garageband like than audacity, that's why i chose it
[08:34] <humphreybc> i don't know anything about linux games either, other than googling "top ten linux games"
[08:34] <ubuntujenkins> ianto I have been asked to help with chapter 4, I knoticed you authored a part which parts are you writing?
[08:34]  * IlyaHaykinson_ had to look up what "lollies" were. apparently it's an AU / NZ term
[08:34] <humphreybc> i think we do need a section on Wine, at least describing what it is and where they can get more help
[08:35] <IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: sure, Wine could definitely fit into the "how to become a more advanced user" type of a section
[08:35] <IlyaHaykinson_> wine on its own is easy
[08:35] <humphreybc> pidgin > empathy
[08:35] <IlyaHaykinson_> but _troubleshooting_ wine requires a bit of black magic
[08:36] <IlyaHaykinson_> that is definitely beyond the grasp of beginners
[08:36] <humphreybc> lollies = candy :)
[08:36] <IlyaHaykinson_> so we'd want to put that, as well as virtual machines, behind some sort of a "here's how you grow to be an advanced user" type of a section
[08:36] <IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: nod. after looking it up, now i know!
[08:36] <humphreybc> okay, so, i like your three section idea
[08:37] <IlyaHaykinson_> and re pidgin > empathy, i completely agree. but, alas, empathy does D-Bus
[08:37] <humphreybc> the second 3 section idea
[08:37] <humphreybc> but we need to rephrase the three sections
[08:37] <humphreybc> D-Bus?
[08:37] <IlyaHaykinson_> yes, please don't treat my section names as gospel. they were just off the top of my head
[08:37] <humphreybc> so "Alternatives to default apps"
[08:37] <ubuntujenkins> I think mention wine in about five to ten line, ie this is wine you can use it to.........   to find out more google wine....
[08:37] <humphreybc> haha, yeah i know :)
[08:37] <IlyaHaykinson_> D-Bus is the (new) way for parts of the user interface to share data
[08:38] <IlyaHaykinson_> so for example, Evolution tells the notifier application that there's new email using D-Bus
[08:38] <IlyaHaykinson_> anyone else can listen to the same message, in theory, and react in their own way.
[08:38] <humphreybc> "Extra specialized applications" for section 2
[08:38] <IlyaHaykinson_> Empathy speaks to D-Bus when there are new IMs
[08:38] <humphreybc> and maybe "Advanced applications" or something
[08:38] <IlyaHaykinson_> and new multimedia messages etc
[08:38] <IlyaHaykinson_> so it integrates really well with the gnome desktop
[08:38] <IlyaHaykinson_> not just now, but moving forward
[08:38] <humphreybc> but to be honest, those three titles are fairly blurred
[08:39] <IlyaHaykinson_> whereas the Pidgin folks didn't want to go in that direction (for some reason.... nto sure on the details)
[08:39] <IlyaHaykinson_> so, Empathy won out. let's hope it gets developed rapidly.
[08:39]  * humphreybc gummy sharks nom nom
[08:40] <humphreybc> Ahh, TommyBrunn, have a look at /website/wolter-remake
[08:40] <IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: what about "Finding alternatives to default applications", an "Extending Ubuntu"?
[08:40] <humphreybc> wolter has used asciidoc to create HTML files for the site... not sure why, but he seemed to think it was the cool thing to do
[08:40] <IlyaHaykinson_> with Extending... being the 2 and 3 together
[08:40] <humphreybc> yeah combining 2 and 3 is good
[08:41] <humphreybc> do we need the "Finding"?
[08:41] <humphreybc> just "Alternatives to default applications" could work?
[08:41] <IlyaHaykinson_> well, i like having titles that contain a verb in gerund form.
[08:41] <humphreybc> but hang on
[08:41] <IlyaHaykinson_> otherwise it has no verb at all.
[08:41] <humphreybc> we've already given them the means to find alternative apps by explaining the software store
[08:41] <humphreybc> so what we're *really* doing is recommending some *good* apps
[08:41] <IlyaHaykinson_> true.
[08:41] <IlyaHaykinson_> good point
[08:42] <IlyaHaykinson_> ok, your title (no "Finding") is fine.
[08:42] <humphreybc> hmm
[08:42] <humphreybc> but even then, we need to explain that these are recommendations based on... what?
[08:42] <humphreybc> sort of like "Chef's choice" in a restaurant...
[08:42] <humphreybc> we've just taken a few apps that *we* have decided
[08:43]  * humphreybc realizes that if he is ever going to get round to watching the movie that he's had for a few days, he'd have to do it now
[08:43] <IlyaHaykinson_> well, if you remember my talk/slides, and the style guide, it's ok for us to be slightly opinionated.
[08:43] <humphreybc> yep
[08:43] <IlyaHaykinson_> i would err on the side of most commonly used alternatives
[08:44] <humphreybc> yeah
[08:44] <IlyaHaykinson_> and/or the most mature / complete alternatives
[08:44] <humphreybc> that's a better way of putting it
[08:44] <IlyaHaykinson_> those should generally overlap
[08:44] <IlyaHaykinson_> and also we don't need to be exclusive
[08:44] <humphreybc> okay, so, list of alternatives
[08:44] <humphreybc> firstly, what are the main default apps people want alternatives for?
[08:44] <IlyaHaykinson_> we can do a paragraph on Chrome, but then list (one word each) the next three popular web browsers (i dunno... epiphany, konqueror, elinks???)
[08:44] <humphreybc> me personally, firefox, pidgin, GIMP, F-Spot
[08:45] <IlyaHaykinson_> GIMP is standard, is it not?
[08:45] <IlyaHaykinson_> oh.
[08:45] <humphreybc> oh wait
[08:45] <IlyaHaykinson_> you mean alternatives
[08:45] <humphreybc> it's not anymore
[08:45] <humphreybc> yeah
[08:45] <humphreybc> so to get a list of alternatives, we have to start off with a list of stuff they're replacing
[08:45] <IlyaHaykinson_> GIMP isn't? hmm. it was in alpha 1 at least, possibly alpha 2
[08:45] <IlyaHaykinson_> ah, you are right.
[08:45] <humphreybc> so on my fresh install i remove F-Spot, empathy and install chrome, digiKam and pidgin
[08:46] <IlyaHaykinson_> ok, gimp isn't really an alternative.
[08:46] <ubuntujenkins> gimp isn't in lucid
[08:46] <IlyaHaykinson_> it's more an add on (i.e. for "extending")
[08:46] <humphreybc> yeah, gimp would come under the second bit
[08:46] <humphreybc> the extension bit
[08:46]  * humphreybc ahh, the sweet smell of progress
[08:46] <IlyaHaykinson_> ok, so firefox -> chrome (+konqueror, epiphany)
[08:46] <humphreybc> well, opera?
[08:46] <IlyaHaykinson_> opera isn't open source. i'd leave this at open source apps for now
[08:47] <humphreybc> midori?
[08:47] <IlyaHaykinson_> flock?
[08:47] <humphreybc> teminal?
[08:47] <IlyaHaykinson_> we can check what the most popular linux browsers are.
[08:47] <humphreybc> terminal ftw
[08:47] <humphreybc> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/k4qQtQHrDz
[08:47] <IlyaHaykinson_> hang on, i'll check on my work's google analytics
[08:47] <humphreybc> let's move this to a pad :)
[08:51]  * humphreybc has finished one bag of lollies
[09:25] <thorwil> vish: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/hgBlhqyoMH
[09:38] <IlyaHaykinson_> alright, gnite folks.
[09:39] <ubuntujenkins> night
[13:31] <vish> thorwil: those are the list of icons required , right?
[13:32] <thorwil> vish: i'm not sure if Ben had only that level in mind, but one level deeper would be too many
[13:32] <vish> yeah..
[13:33] <vish> i'll collect the icons e already have and add it to the branch
[13:33] <vish> s/e/the
[13:33] <thorwil> vish: so i added lists for what's all in each chapter as # comments
[13:33] <vish> argh! e=we
[13:33] <thorwil> vish: and finally the few ideas i have
[13:34] <thorwil> vish: Default Applications, Troubleshooting and Learning_more make me wonder if we should really do it at all
[13:35]  * vish nods
[13:35] <vish> hmm , whats wrong with bzr :/
[14:04] <godbyk> thorwil, vish: for the installation chapter: do most people know what a hard drive looks like?  might be better of going with a CD (as in the install CD) instead.
[14:05] <vish> that would work too
[14:05] <thorwil> perhaps
[14:05] <vish> godbyk: whats wrong with bzr?  it doesnt allow me to pull
[14:05] <godbyk> vish: lemme try.
[14:05] <vish> keeps saying some crap about my unprotected key file :/
[14:06] <thorwil> godbyk: the "harddrive" would be just a box in that icon style, anyway
[14:06] <vish> why does it care :/
[14:06] <godbyk> vish: it's working for me.
[14:06] <godbyk> vish: ah, make sure the permissions of your .ssh/id_rsa file are 644.
[14:06] <godbyk> er, sorry, 600.
[14:06] <vish> hmm , is this something new?
[14:07] <godbyk> vish: I think ssh complains if the permissions are other.
[14:07] <godbyk> Not sure if that's what the actual problem is or not.
[14:07] <godbyk> Just taking a shot in the dark.
[14:07] <vish> worked so long with the same perms
[14:07] <thorwil> vish: you are not protecting your key file? do you not think about how it must feel, neglected and without cover?
[14:07] <vish> bleh ;p
[14:07] <godbyk> lol
[14:09]  * thorwil -> coffee
[14:09] <godbyk> vish: The ~/.ssh dir should be 700, also.
[14:10] <vish> funny thing is it worked so long  , not sure if the file permissions changed or bzr changed
[14:10] <godbyk> did that fix it?
[14:10] <vish> i havent tried yet , will be doing it in a sec
[14:11] <godbyk> k
[14:18] <godbyk> thorwil: Have you done anything more with the cover page or are we still waiting on some big announcement from Ubuntu?
[14:18] <godbyk> (just curious, not pressuring!) :-)
[14:27] <vish> godbyk: is there a way to read the file permissions as numbers rather than using ls -l ?
[14:28] <godbyk> vish: I don't know of one, but it wouldn't surprise me if it existed.
[14:28] <godbyk> the .ssh dir should be rwx------
[14:29] <godbyk> the .ssh/id_rsa file should be rw-------
[14:29] <vish> yeah , right now it is 644 , need to change that
[14:29] <godbyk> vish: chmod 700 ~/.ssh; chmod 600 ~/.ssh/id_rsa
[14:30] <vish> yup just did that
[14:30] <vish> hmm , now it works
[14:31] <vish> i mean bzr works now.. but i hadnt changed the file permissions  , wonder what did that
[14:32] <vish> the directory was having the right permissions already , but not sure how the key file permissions got changed..
[14:32] <godbyk> vish: good question!
[14:32] <vish> there is a bug in gnome-keyring , maybe it is related
[14:33] <vish> lucid got a gnome-keyring update , that is causing a lot of havoc.. but thats a long shot
[14:36] <vish> nope , not it , the update predates my last bzr interaction
[14:43] <godbyk> I just updated http://ubuntu-manual.org/builds/ for anyone who cares.
[15:27] <thorwil> godbyk: no, yes
[15:29] <godbyk> thorwil: heh. understood.
[15:52] <BlessJah> hi, i'm currently translating ubuntu manual
[15:52] <BlessJah> \providecommand{\polang}{en} what should be translated here?
[15:55] <BlessJah> should I translate last part? {en} to {pl}?
[16:33] <godbyk> BlessJah: Nope, you should leave that line as-is.
[16:35] <BlessJah> what does this line means?
[17:07] <godbyk> BlessJah: The \providecommand line?  It means: "if the \polang command hasn't already been define, define is to mean 'en'."
[17:07] <godbyk> When you run 'make ubuntu-manual-pl.pdf', it sets '\def\polang{pl}'.
[17:08] <godbyk> then \polang is passed in as \documentclass[lang=\polang]{ubuntu-manual}
[17:08] <BlessJah> ok, so it shouldn't be changed into {pl}
[17:08] <godbyk> so it's telling the manual what language is being compiled.
[17:08] <godbyk> BlessJah: The \providecommand line is just setting 'en' as the default language if a language hasn't already been set.
[17:08] <godbyk> BlessJah: But the language is being set in the Makefile.
[17:09] <BlessJah> ok
[17:09] <BlessJah> thx
[17:09] <godbyk> So you can leave the \providecommand line alone.  It doesn't need to be changed.
[17:09] <godbyk> BlessJah: no problem. :)
[21:46] <humphreybc> TommyBrunn: ping
[21:59] <komsas> godbyk: if I wrote in translation dash, it is better to change it to /dash?
[21:59] <komsas> he, my ping killed him. :)
[22:02] <komsas> dutchie: do you know something about this?
[22:03] <dutchie> if you are translating \dash{text}, put \dash{translated text}
[22:03] <komsas> no, there no dash in english line, but in our translation is
[22:03] <komsas> what to do in this position?
[22:04] <dutchie> oh, so your language has a dash where there is not one in the English?
[22:04] <komsas> yes
[22:04]  * dutchie is unsure
[22:04] <komsas> it is problem?
[22:04]  * dutchie is not really in ubuntu-manual mode atm
[22:04] <dutchie> just put \dash for now, godbyk will complain if it's wrong
[22:05] <komsas> oh dutchie, sorry I did read your question right
[22:05] <komsas> we have same dash
[22:05] <humphreybc> you don't want to translate the command, but the text inside the command (the braces)
[22:05] <dutchie> could you show us the text you are translating?
[22:06] <dutchie> it should give a file reference iirc
[22:06] <komsas> but I'm asking if there no dash in english string and I use dash like "-" in lithuanian translation, it is better to use latex command or I can use "-"
[22:07] <dutchie> just use your initiative for now
[22:07] <dutchie> ask godbyk when he's back
[22:07] <komsas> ok dutchie , thanks u
[22:12] <humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: ping
[22:26]  * humphreybc is meeting up with Launchpad's release manager for coffee this afternoon
[22:28]  * dutchie thinks that writing a python program to do his physics homework was overkill
[22:28]  * humphreybc thinks that if dutchie likes python so much mebbe he should help with quickshot
[22:28] <humphreybc> :P
[22:29] <dutchie> :P
[22:29] <dutchie> I have been providing ubuntujenkins with hints
[22:29] <humphreybc> lol
[22:29] <dutchie> and I have a copy of the branch
[22:29] <humphreybc> okay cool
[22:29] <humphreybc> i'm fearing for the screenshots now
[22:29] <dutchie> I never really got round to working out how quickly works properly
[22:30] <humphreybc> me neither, all i use is quickly run and quickly glade :D
[22:30]  * dutchie is busy using E = mc² for now
[22:30] <humphreybc> hehe
[22:33] <humphreybc> dutchie, fire stuff at me for a to do list
[22:33] <humphreybc> for the project
[22:33] <humphreybc> like, detailed stuff
[22:33] <humphreybc> not "complete chapter 10"
[22:33] <humphreybc> and not just for me
[22:33] <humphreybc> i'm putting it on the wiki
[22:33] <humphreybc> in response to comment from Chris Lees, http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/03/omg-ubuntu-manual-project-gets-website.html
[22:34] <dutchie> oh god
[22:34] <dutchie> more publicity
[22:34] <humphreybc> more publicity, yes
[22:34] <humphreybc> :)
[22:34] <humphreybc> also there's a quickshot post going up soon too
[22:34] <dutchie> btw, ubuntu-manual.org is full of fail on IE7
[22:34] <dutchie> not sure if we should care
[22:35] <humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: https://edge.launchpad.net/tarmac
[22:35] <humphreybc> really?
[22:35] <humphreybc> screenshot please?
[22:36] <dutchie> don't have a windows box handy now
[22:36] <dutchie> hmm, everything works fine up to the point where I convert from J to MeV
[22:36] <humphreybc> me neither
[22:36] <humphreybc> lol
[22:36] <humphreybc> ill ask my flatmate if he's around
[22:37] <dutchie> ah, I had the charge on an electron as 1.6e-29
[22:37] <ubuntujenkins> humphreybc and dutchie I am just finishing a group meeting I will talk in ten mins when I  get home if thats ok
[22:37] <dutchie> silly me
[22:38] <ubuntujenkins> see you in the?
[22:38] <ubuntujenkins> *ten
[22:42] <humphreybc> sure
[22:48] <komsas> godbyk: If I want to use dash in translation, but there is no dash in english line, it is better to use latex code /dash or I can use "-" ?
[22:49] <humphreybc> hi Red_HamsterX :)
[22:49] <Red_HamsterX> Hi.
[22:49] <Red_HamsterX> So, as shadwick was asking, what do you need help with?
[22:49] <Red_HamsterX> Aside from grabbing screencaps.
[22:50] <humphreybc> so, basically the manual project is to create a fully fledged, community based, up to date beginners manual with 200 pages, 50 screenshots or so and 40+ languages
[22:50] <humphreybc> well practically everything - we've only got one python developer working on it, TommyBrunn
[22:50] <humphreybc> and ubuntujenkins is working on it too
[22:50] <humphreybc> i'm trying my best to help with the UI
[22:50] <humphreybc> but the main problem we have is time
[22:51] <shadwick> hello
[22:51] <humphreybc> because the manual needs to be ready for Lucid, we need the screenshots before the 20th April
[22:51] <humphreybc> getting 2000 consistent screenshots in 40+ languages is a hard undertaking
[22:51] <humphreybc> so i came up with the idea for quickshot
[22:51] <humphreybc> which automates a lot of the process
[22:51] <ubuntujenkins> back again
[22:51] <shadwick> I think it's a great idea
[22:52] <humphreybc> we also need the default ubuntu theme for Lucid, so it creates a new user etc
[22:52]  * ubuntujenkins checks logs
[22:52] <humphreybc> shadwick: thanks. we're hoping to make it flexible enough so that other documentation projects can use it too.
[22:52] <Red_HamsterX> I shouldn't have any trouble dedicating a system for the beta releases.
[22:53] <Red_HamsterX> And I'm not bad with Python (projects at uguu.ca).
[22:53] <TommyBrunn> Red_HamsterX: Even if you don't have a spare system, you could probably do it in a virtual machine.
[22:53] <humphreybc> but at the moment we're in a bit of trouble because a) I came up with the idea too late (my fault) and b) we've only got two people working on it actively, it's proving more complicated than anticipated
[22:53] <humphreybc> our project has a huge emphasis on simplicity
[22:53] <Red_HamsterX> But I'm very short on time.
[22:53] <ubuntujenkins> right well I can say I need serious help :-0
[22:53] <Red_HamsterX> That's what I meant TommyBrunn.
[22:53] <Red_HamsterX> +comma
[22:53] <humphreybc> we want to make it as easy as possible for contributors to help with UMP, so we have a tonne of stuff in place to make it easy for them to help out. That's what we want to do with Quickshot, make it so anyone can use it
[22:54] <Red_HamsterX> What do you need the most help with, Python-wise, TommyBrunn, ubuntujenkins?
[22:54] <humphreybc> we'd like it ready for the Ubuntu Global Jam so we can get hundreds of people screenshotting
[22:54] <godbyk> komsas: Use \dash.
[22:54]  * ubuntujenkins has spent 3.5 hours staring at a ~1000 cell spreedsheet
[22:54]  * komsas going to change translation..
[22:54] <humphreybc> Red_HamsterX, shadwick, how much do you guys know about bzr and launchpad?
[22:55] <TommyBrunn> Currently we pretty much need help with everything. The first thing that springs to mind though, is a way to parse the screenshots branch and somehow serialize the information for each screenshot.
[22:55] <ubuntujenkins> so that I can add the screen res detect to main I really need a timer mecahnism
[22:55] <Red_HamsterX> humphreybc, I'm a bit weak on bzr, though I'm very familiar with svn.
[22:55] <ubuntujenkins> I am looking at the bzr lark
[22:55] <TommyBrunn> See, every screenshot will have some sort of information on what should be in it, what language it should be in, etc.
[22:55] <humphreybc> i'm meeting up with the release manager for launchpad today for coffee
[22:55] <Red_HamsterX> I was working with the Ubuntu documentation team in preparation for 5.04, so Launchpad's mostly familiar.
[22:55] <Red_HamsterX> Though it's changed a fair bit since then.
[22:55] <TommyBrunn> We need to somehow format that in a consistent manner, so that it can be read by Quickshot.
[22:56] <ubuntujenkins> there are branches for each language here https://code.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-screenshots?field.lifecycle=ALL
[22:56] <humphreybc> to discuss the best way to work with the data on launchpad. he has suggested https://launchpad.net/tarmac
[22:56] <ubuntujenkins> I have written a script to merge them to main. I will look at tarmac tomorrow
[22:56] <humphreybc> of course we want consistency across all of our translated manuals and within the manuals themselves - which means that stuff like dpi, resolution, theme etc have to be pre-determined and set correctly
[22:56] <humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: oh nice you've done some of the languages :D
[22:57] <ubuntujenkins> you have to change the status to any status the merging means they change status to merged but they still work
[22:57] <ubuntujenkins> if they add any more languages :P
[22:58] <TommyBrunn> Anyway, I need to be off to bed now. I'm sick as a dog, and so I need all the rest I can get. Hopefully I can be of more help once I get better. If there are any questions that ubuntujenkins or humphreybc can't answer, feel free to email them to me at tommy.brunn@gmail.com
[22:58] <humphreybc> yep, and also email me at humphreybc@gmail.com or catch me on google talk - it goes to my cellphone and i'll reply pretty much immediately unless i'm asleep
[22:58] <ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX I could really do with some help with one last bit on the screen resolution stuff then it can go into main for testing
[22:59] <shadwick> well as cool as this project is, I don't think I'll be able to help out
[22:59] <shadwick> best of luck though
[22:59] <Red_HamsterX> ubuntujenkins, just point me at the code and leave a "todo" block of comments and I'll see what I can hack out. I'm in UTC-7.
[23:00] <ubuntujenkins> I will give you an explination and add TODOs in a moment, my branch is untidy as I use it for experiments.
[23:00] <Red_HamsterX> I'll do my best to mirror your style.
[23:00] <ubuntujenkins> thats sounds good though.
[23:01] <ubuntujenkins> it fine I will add all of the screen res change to a seperatef ile for main
[23:01] <ubuntujenkins> I am just changing permissons for my branch
[23:01] <Red_HamsterX> (I'll likely be unable to do much today, though. I won't be home 'til late and I need to be up early tomorrow. I'll look over the code and make note of what I already know how to do, though)
[23:02] <humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: if you want to just hang out in here and we can chat about quickshot stuff. i have to update the wiki at some point too
[23:02] <humphreybc> sweet
[23:02] <ubuntujenkins> are you on the quickshot devs team? Red...
[23:02] <humphreybc> so, our target completion date is the 18th March for a working version, 31st March for a stable version
[23:02] <humphreybc> I know that's less than 3 weeks away
[23:02] <humphreybc> we have a plan B if quickshot isn't ready
[23:02] <humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: what's your lp username and i'll add you to the quickshot devs
[23:03] <humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: should we make it an open team
[23:03] <humphreybc> ?
[23:03] <Red_HamsterX> I figured I'd just give you patches like with most other projects.
[23:03] <ubuntujenkins> erm can we add more people who can approve members?
[23:03] <humphreybc> yeah i'll make you an admin
[23:03] <humphreybc> and Tommy
[23:03] <ubuntujenkins> Red_Hamster my e-mail is ubuntujenkins@googlemail.com
[23:04] <ubuntujenkins> cheers ben
[23:04] <Red_HamsterX> https://edge.launchpad.net/~red-hamsterx
[23:04] <ubuntujenkins> Red_Hamster bzr branch lp:~quickshotdevs/quickshot/luke-quickshot is my branch I will make some changes before I go to bed
[23:04] <Red_HamsterX> You should be able to get what you need from that.
[23:04] <Red_HamsterX> I'm on Google Talk at red.hamsterx@gmail.com.
[23:05] <humphreybc> what's your real name for my contacts list?
[23:05] <Red_HamsterX> Neil Tallim; it's what I broadcast anyway.
[23:05] <humphreybc> sweet
[23:06]  * humphreybc needs to have lunch soon
[23:06] <humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: I'm +13 btw
[23:07] <humphreybc> NZ
[23:07] <dutchie> \o/
[23:07] <Red_HamsterX> That explains why you said 'lunch' and not 'sleep'.
[23:07] <ubuntujenkins> when the user clicks the button to change their resolution a new window pops up. In this window there is a button that has to be  to clicked with in  seconds or they are logged out. The 15 seconds deley doesn't exist I know the loog out command
[23:07] <dutchie> http://media.joshh.co.uk/graph.png produced using 75 lines of Python
[23:07] <ubuntujenkins> @ Red_HamsterX
[23:07] <manualbot> ubuntujenkins: Error: "Red_HamsterX" is not a valid command.
[23:07] <Red_HamsterX> Lawl, bot.
[23:08]  * ubuntujenkins is tired
[23:08] <dutchie> don't be mean to manualbot
[23:09] <ubuntujenkins> I will point out I have all most no python skills at all. with help from dutchie #python and #ubuntu-app-devel is how I have got stuff this far
[23:09] <humphreybc> i'm taking a python paper but only just started, so i'm fairly useless too
[23:10] <ubuntujenkins> I had done a little past hello world about 2 years ago and now I am trying to help on a program
[23:10] <dutchie> humphreybc: there are other Ubuntu people in NZ?
[23:10] <dutchie> wow
[23:10] <Red_HamsterX> I contribute patches against the issue-tracker when I can, so I can probably help compensate.
[23:10] <humphreybc> dutchie, yes there are! even one or two canonical employees
[23:10] <humphreybc> mpt is from NZ :)
[23:10] <dutchie> yeah, but he's in a proper country now
[23:10] <dutchie> :P
[23:10] <ubuntujenkins> I am adding coments to my branch now
[23:11] <humphreybc> dutchie: ..
[23:11] <humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: added you as a member of Quickshot devs
[23:11] <Red_HamsterX> Who's mpt?
[23:12] <humphreybc> also, guys, just a heads up - there's a post going up on omgubuntu.co.uk very soon about quickshot and asking for help with the python - so if we get an influx of people wanting to help, that's where they're from :)
[23:12] <Red_HamsterX> Wow. Dev access after fifteen minutes. That's a first.
[23:12] <Red_HamsterX> What if I'm, like, totally malicious?
[23:12] <humphreybc> we trust you :)
[23:12] <humphreybc> (btw our project is a bit weird because i'm in charge)
[23:12] <humphreybc> :)
[23:12] <Red_HamsterX> Weird's good.
[23:12] <humphreybc> mpt is one of the lead Ubuntu UI designers for Canonical
[23:13] <dutchie> he's head of the User Interaction team iirc
[23:13] <Red_HamsterX> Ah. Then I have not spoken with him.
[23:13] <humphreybc> yeah, good guy
[23:13] <dutchie> I have attended a talk by him
[23:13] <humphreybc> dutchie: UDS-M is in brussels, feel like making a trip there?
[23:14] <humphreybc> also, Red_HamsterX, ubuntujenkins, look into: https://edge.launchpad.net/tarmac
[23:14] <dutchie> not espaecially if I have to pay
[23:14] <ubuntujenkins> on my to do list already
[23:14] <dutchie> I was going to have a vague look at dates and things
[23:14] <humphreybc> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/aA6ygCXL9F << to do list
[23:15] <humphreybc> (for new contributors, will go on the wiki)
[23:16] <humphreybc> Luke, can you add some quickshot stuff for our new python peeps?
[23:17] <humphreybc> godbyk: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/aA6ygCXL9F
[23:17] <ubuntujenkins> I will try to my list is getting longer by the day I am also wrting more for other chapters as well
[23:17] <ubuntujenkins> bit like your ben :-)
[23:19] <dutchie> email me a list of things you need doing, and I may investigate
[23:19] <humphreybc> heh
[23:19] <dutchie> but it is now bedtime
[23:19] <humphreybc> i'm spending so much time talking to people nowadays
[23:20] <Red_HamsterX> You are.
[23:21] <Red_HamsterX> Ooh. A real-time notepad. Neat.
[23:22] <dutchie> it has also been called "Multiplayer notepad"
[23:24]  * Red_HamsterX waits for Launchpad to finish its GPG propagation stuff.
[23:28] <godbyk> humphreybc: Is what's-his-name going to be doing our site or what's the story there. Looks like Wolter's been busy hacking on it. No sense having two people running in different directions.
[23:28] <godbyk> (I haven't looked at Wolter's site yet.)
[23:29] <humphreybc> haven't heard from brett alton yet
[23:29] <humphreybc> so for now it's wolter
[23:29] <godbyk> 'kay.
[23:29] <godbyk> should I switch the test site to wolter's dir sometime?
[23:30] <ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX I have updated my branch please don't merge it with main as there is some trickry going on in it that will be messed up. There is a TODO in line 223
[23:30] <ubuntujenkins> thanks :-)
[23:30] <humphreybc> godbyk, maybe in a couple of days
[23:31] <humphreybc> yeah so i don't know if you guys caught it
[23:31] <humphreybc> but on the 26th March there will be a post on omgubuntu asking readers to download the latest revision (it'll just be attached to the post) and crawl over it for spelling mistakes, grammar etc
[23:32] <humphreybc> they'll be directed to bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual
[23:32] <humphreybc> so about that time we'll have hundreds of bugs coming in :)
[23:32] <ubuntujenkins> yey :P
[23:32] <humphreybc> it gives us 5 (five!) days to fix all the bugs before writing freeze on the 31st
[23:32] <ubuntujenkins> woo!
[23:33] <godbyk> won't that be fun!
[23:33] <ubuntujenkins> I know
[23:33] <humphreybc> hehe
[23:33] <humphreybc> oh and python devs, every time i talk to jono he asks me to contribute snippets: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PythonSnippets
[23:33] <humphreybc> i told him once we have some solid code to submit, we will
[23:33] <humphreybc> just something else to keep in mind
[23:35] <ubuntujenkins> Think looking at the list we need more people to help
[23:35] <godbyk> ubuntujenkins: more people to help with what?
[23:36] <ubuntujenkins> the massive list on http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/aA6ygCXL9F
[23:36] <humphreybc> we always need more people :D
[23:39] <humphreybc> okay we need authors for chapter 6
[23:40] <ubuntujenkins> shotgun not
[23:40] <humphreybc> lol
[23:40] <ubuntujenkins> I have just facebooked a mate to try and get him to help
[23:40] <humphreybc> groovy
[23:41]  * ubuntujenkins looks at tarmac
[23:41] <godbyk> do we think that the quickshot stuff will be ready in time?  how much will it script things and how much will rely on the user?
[23:42] <humphreybc> godbyk: probably not going to be ready in time unless we get another 2 python coders at least
[23:42] <godbyk> it'd take more developer time (but would help with consistency and take less user time) if the screenshots were taken programmatically.
[23:43] <humphreybc> yup
[23:43] <humphreybc> that's the aim
[23:43] <godbyk> e.g., it knows how to run program X, runs it, gets it to the proper state and position on the screen and takes the screenshot all on its own.
[23:43] <ubuntujenkins> I don't know if tramac turns out allright and the taking screenshots is done then we might get it done
[23:43] <humphreybc> okay so, what chapters are actually _completed_
[23:43] <humphreybc> ?
[23:44] <godbyk> normally, I'd jump on board and try to help out more with quickshot but I have my hands full at the moment. :)
[23:44] <godbyk> don't we have editors assigned to each chapter? maybe they should run through and sign off on their chapters.
[23:44] <humphreybc> godbyk: that's fine, the latex is more important
[23:44] <ubuntujenkins> kklimonda you wanted to help with quickshot, please  remind what skills have you got?
[23:44] <humphreybc> yep we need to find jamin
[23:44] <godbyk> make a list of what sections are unfinished and give a status report.
[23:45] <kklimonda> ubuntujenkins: I can handle both Python and C
[23:45] <ubuntujenkins> sory it too so long to get back to you but I now know where we are at again
[23:45] <ubuntujenkins> TommyBrunn are you still up?
[23:46] <humphreybc> nah he's gone to sleep
[23:46] <cmmtessier> Just joined on to help - don't mind to do some editing - where should I begin chapter1?
[23:47] <ubuntujenkins> kklimonda have a look at bzr branch lp:~quickshotdevs/quickshot/luke-quickshot please and line 233 it in a mess I will tidy it up. between you and Red_HamsterX could get that functionality working that would be good
[23:47] <ubuntujenkins> guys do quickly run to run it and do quickly run -r to remove the user
[23:47] <humphreybc> okay, so i'm meeting with Tim in about 2 hours, give me stuff to ask him
[23:48] <ubuntujenkins> who is he again?
[23:48] <humphreybc> Launchpad release manager
[23:48] <humphreybc> works for canonical
[23:48] <humphreybc> works on bzr and launchpad
[23:48] <humphreybc> i'm actually physically meeting up with him for coffee
[23:49] <semioticrobotic> ta da
[23:49] <humphreybc> cmmtessier: basically anything you can see that needs work
[23:49] <humphreybc> hi semioticrobotic!
[23:49] <humphreybc> cmmtessier: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/aA6ygCXL9F
[23:49] <epkugelmass> I propose putting that in the topic
[23:50] <humphreybc> hehe
[23:50] <humphreybc> just about to do that :)
[23:50] <ubuntujenkins> basically we could do with the authentication thing sorted. I am tinkering with tarmac I am wondering how http://doctormo.ubuntu-ma.us/2010/03/01/launchpad-moving-to-closed-source-auth/ that effects us
[23:50] <epkugelmass> ok =]
[23:52] <humphreybc> anyone know how to make text red on a wiki?
[23:52] <ubuntujenkins> humphreybc what i really need to know is how to add an ssh key to launchpad through commands at a VERY quick glance tarmac deals with https://help.launchpad.net/API/launchpadlib
[23:53] <ubuntujenkins> no I am afraid not
[23:53] <humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: okay i'll ask him about how we can do stuff like that
[23:53] <ubuntujenkins> thnaks I am off to bed night
[23:54] <humphreybc> night
[23:54]  * humphreybc is off to make some lunch
[23:55] <ubuntujenkins> humphreybc please ask does authorizing an app through https://help.launchpad.net/API/launchpadlib (OAuth) allow bzr branch pushes
[23:55] <humphreybc> kk
[23:55]  * ubuntujenkins is really of to bed now
[23:55] <humphreybc> i suggest everyone bookmarks the etherpad
[23:55] <ubuntujenkins> thanks night all
[23:56] <godbyk> humphreybc: When you do the omg editors thing, you should establish a standard format for the bug reporting so that it's easy to see what's been reported already (so we don't have to triage a bunch of duplicates).
[23:56] <humphreybc> yep
[23:57] <humphreybc> will d
[23:57] <humphreybc> do*
[23:57] <humphreybc> stuff like page number, revision number, all that sort of stuff.
[23:57] <godbyk> The bug's subject line should be like 'ch X, p Y, "words that are wrong" -> "words that are right"
[23:57] <godbyk> or something like that.
[23:57] <godbyk> right.
[23:57] <godbyk> hopefully they'll all be on the same PDF
[23:57] <godbyk> that way the page numbers are the same throughout.
[23:59] <semioticrobotic> which version of the manual are we giving to omg?  Beta?  RC?
[23:59] <godbyk> humphreybc: I like the google analytics report for the new site.. goes from 0 to 122 visitors in a single day.
[23:59] <Red_HamsterX> There. Launchpad stuff taken care of and code of conduct signed. Yay.
[23:59] <humphreybc> hehe
[23:59] <godbyk> semioticrobotic: Probably the latest of whatever we've got at the time.
[23:59] <humphreybc> well it's on Planet Ubuntu and omgubuntu