[07:48] <thorwil> good morning!
[08:13] <knome> morning thorwil :)
[08:13] <thorwil> yo knome
[08:18] <knome> how are you?
[08:19] <thorwil> knome: alright, thanks. and you?
[08:20] <knome> pretty good. :)
[08:20] <thorwil> i'm considering to buy a domain and polish my wordpress blog a bit
[08:20] <knome> you should do that :)
[08:20] <thorwil> though longer term i want a better website
[08:21] <knome> which means?
[08:22] <thorwil> more control on all levels and some cleverness regarding categorization
[08:22] <knome> WP isn't enough for that or..
[08:23] <thorwil> not a base install. assuming there's no way around touching code myself, i want python
[08:23] <knome> why wouldn't there be a way to touch the code?
[08:23] <knome> oh, yeah
[08:23] <knome> i got it :P
[08:24] <thorwil> heh
[08:24] <knome> what about extending WP with a plugin?
[08:25] <thorwil> guess i should look what's available there
[08:25] <knome> but can't you have multiple levels of tags already?
[08:26] <thorwil> sure i can
[08:27] <knome> soo.... :D
[08:27] <knome> what was the problem again?
[08:29] <thorwil> wordpress.com doesn't allow me to edit css unless i pay dollars. don't recall the price, just that it was ridiculous for just that
[08:29] <knome> oh, .com
[08:29] <knome> :)
[08:29] <thorwil> so for that alone i will need another solution
[08:30] <thorwil> then i want a section on my site that is more like a wiki, but where edits will result in drafts for journal entries
[08:32] <knome> i want that as well
[08:32] <knome> ;)
[08:32] <thorwil> there should be a "portfolio item" kind of post, to be shown both in the journal and a portfolio section
[08:33] <thorwil> such posts should be associated with work-in-progress posts for the same project
[08:34] <knome> be back in 15
[08:34] <thorwil> k
[09:53] <knome> ugh
[09:53] <knome> couldn't get back then
[09:55] <knome> iainfarrell, morning! :)
[09:57] <iainfarrell> hey knome
[09:57] <iainfarrell> I'm afraid I'm still sick
[09:57] <iainfarrell> and need to get better
[09:57] <knome> yeah, no problem.
[09:57] <iainfarrell> but Marcus and Ivanka are looking at your ideas
[09:57] <knome> great
[09:57] <knome> will they send me some vector stuff?
[09:58] <iainfarrell> yeah
[09:58] <iainfarrell> we don't have final files yet
[09:58] <knome> okay, fantastic
[09:58] <iainfarrell> well
[09:58] <iainfarrell> they do
[09:58] <iainfarrell> but I don't
[09:58] <knome> ;]
[09:58] <iainfarrell> as I'm at home
[09:58] <knome> yup
[10:55] <knome> going to take a nap. see you later
[12:50]  * thorwil wonders if Jono ever recovers from being tickled pink
[13:20] <thorwil> http://vimeo.com/9580375
[15:51] <knome> thorwil, what was that about jono?
[16:55] <thorwil> knome: it's my impression that he likes to say he would be tickled pink when announcing things. like the next uds. it's not rare that he announces something
[16:56] <thorwil> knome: a pink Jono makes for a rather disturbing mental image, so maybe at least some announcements should be left to more color-stable people
[17:01] <knome> heh
[18:22] <huayra> 7j
[18:23] <thorwil> 8k
[18:24] <knome> 9l
[18:24] <vish> 6m
[18:25] <thorwil> vish just isn't progressive :)
[18:33] <vish> heh didnt want to enter double digits ;)
[18:59] <huayra> sorry. my daughter took over the machine
[19:03] <thorwil> huayra: nah, i was glad for the distraction :)
[19:04] <vish> huayra: we just like being jerks ;)
[19:06] <huayra> she hacked me
[19:06] <huayra> just kidding ;)
[19:49] <zniavre> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Brand#New%20GtkThemes
[20:07] <zniavre> is that a "project" or the real new theme ?
[20:08] <vish> zniavre: i think you stumbled upon the new branding before it was made public ;)
[20:09] <zniavre> it is public ...
[20:09] <kwwii> omg!
[20:09] <kwwii> indeed it is!
[20:10] <kwwii> now everyone can see what we've been working on
[20:10] <kwwii> at the pub, be online later for a qa session
[20:11] <knome> lol
[20:11] <zniavre> is it murrine and aurora engine?
[20:11] <knome> kwwii, q&a you mean? :P
[20:11] <kwwii> take a good look at it
[20:11] <kwwii> indeed
[20:11] <kwwii> zniavre: no murrine with a bit of pixmap
[20:11] <knome> kwwii, i already did :P
[20:12] <kwwii> anyway, time for beer, bbl
[20:12] <zniavre> cheers
[20:12] <vish> bah canoincal copied my idea for the metacity buttons ;/
[20:12] <knome> ;)
[20:12] <zniavre> my tooltips looks better than that
[20:13] <zniavre> ...
[20:15] <thorwil> troy_s: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Brand
[20:15] <troy_s> thorwil: Oh good. They are into cows now.
[20:16] <troy_s> thorwil: I can't say that I wouldn't give it a huge plus one for dumping that nasty fricking face amateurdom.
[20:16] <troy_s> thorwil: But the dot to dot is ... well they should have maybe hired David Airey.
[20:16] <troy_s> thorwil: Typeface is solid.
[20:17] <troy_s> thorwil: It's tight.
[20:17] <thorwil> troy_s: yes, mostly. very sharp/hard, though
[20:17] <troy_s> thorwil: Naw. It's solid.
[20:18] <zniavre> borderless?
[20:18] <troy_s> thorwil: Very very very solid. The craptastic face is still in spread. That should be killed dead.
[20:18] <troy_s> thorwil: Whoever designed that nasty face should never ever do anything again. Period.
[20:18] <troy_s> thorwil: It's _exceptionally_ tight.
[20:19] <troy_s> thorwil: Very tight. Can't say that the dot is all super though. It has an odd centre of gravity.
[20:19] <knome> troy_s, lol
[20:19] <knome> :P
[20:19] <troy_s> thorwil: But that is but a blip. The forest is fantastic.
[20:20] <troy_s> thorwil: Even if one tree is a little Charlie Brown.
[20:23] <thorwil> troy_s: the logo-type surely conveys precision and engineering. great for the product. less so for the community
[20:23] <troy_s> thorwil: Bah.
[20:23] <troy_s> thorwil: It's good.
[20:23] <troy_s> thorwil: It's a well formed face, and it is well executed.
[20:27] <troy_s> Great adoption of Swiss big idea work with the Mark Twain quote.
[20:27] <Equiet> Everything in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Brand is meant as final?
[20:27] <troy_s> Not impressed at all with the CD mock cover... let's pray for some solid photography and not crap that we have had.
[20:27] <thorwil> Equiet: no
[20:27] <troy_s> And let's hope the wallpaper brings a little emotion. But on the whole... a solid 85% out of me.
[20:27] <troy_s> I am impressed.
[20:27] <thorwil> Equiet: if alone because there are 2 different logo-types in there
[20:28] <troy_s> thorwil: So what?
[20:28] <thorwil> troy_s: he asked if the stuff on the page is final ...
[20:28] <troy_s> thorwil: You are aware that there are more than a few identity campaigns that are out of multi faces etc?
[20:28] <Equiet> Uff, ok, then.
[20:29] <troy_s> thorwil: But your hint that it isn't final doesn't really mean much would be my point. It is entirely possible that there are variations for the identity. See Nickleodeon or like matters.
[20:30] <troy_s> Crap stale product of Asus etc. As a sort of forest through trees though, it is monumentally better.
[20:31] <thorwil> troy_s: those key members mentioned on the top, i was supposed to be one of them
[20:31] <thorwil> troy_s: on monday. bu the storm over europe got in the way. knome was there
[20:31] <knome> o/
[20:31] <troy_s> thorwil: Aw that's too bad.
[20:32] <troy_s> It's solid work by and large. I'll need to digest a bit.
[20:32] <troy_s> There are some glaring weaks: 1) Photography is borderline plastic rubbish. 1.1) CD / DVD cover would be indicative of uninspired, but again, that isn't a knock as it is purely a mock clearly. 2) Hope and pray that the fricking wallpaper can deliver some emotion.
[20:33] <troy_s> Absolutely love the Big Idea approach. Very tight.
[20:35] <troy_s> knome: How did it all shake down?
[20:36] <troy_s> knome: Were you part of the discussion?
[20:36] <knome> which discussion?
[20:36] <knome> :P
[20:37] <troy_s> knome: On the new identity campaign.
[20:37] <knome> well, i was in london on monday
[20:38]  * Equiet wonders why the purple was picked.
[20:38] <troy_s> Equiet: Forest through trees Eq.
[20:38] <knome> but we were pretty much just being shown the new stuff they had made
[20:38] <troy_s> Equiet: I could probably cite at least 10 good reasons that it is a solid choice.
[20:38] <knome> i'm just writing a blog post.
[20:38] <troy_s> knome: Ah. So no discussion... just revelation.
[20:38] <knome> yep, pretty much
[20:39] <troy_s> Equiet: 1) It's unique. That's positive. 2) A little orange there maintains a little heritage. The orange is the anchor and the mauve is a triplet.
[20:39] <knome> Aubergine ("purple") is not going to be the primary color for ubuntu
[20:39] <knome> orange will be number 1
[20:39] <Equiet> Well, for me, it's Mac OS X.
[20:40] <troy_s> Equiet: So if you know anything about colour theory, the mauve pairs well with that degree of orange. There is likely a wide angle yellow in there too.
[20:40] <knome> aubergine will be linked with canonical
[20:40] <artir> but why did yhey switched the position of the buttons?
[20:40] <troy_s> Equiet: I doubt it. Can't say that the connection is there.
[20:40] <artir> because of fitt's law ¿
[20:40] <troy_s> artir: ? What do you mean?
[20:40] <troy_s> artir: Bugger Fitts law. NOT relevant.
[20:40] <vish> artir: what fitts law!
[20:40] <artir> in the light theme, the buttons are at the left and now are at the right
[20:40] <artir> the case
[20:40] <Equiet> troy_s: The primary background of OS X is purple.
[20:40] <knome> artir, that's probably just coincidence.
[20:41] <artir> is that menues are at the top left of the windows
[20:41] <troy_s> The windeco _is_ weak. I'll give you that.
[20:41] <artir> so now the clickable places of the top of the window are at the left
[20:41] <troy_s> artir: That is a sad myopic choice really. It has nothing to do with Fitts or otherwise. It's called shitty design.
[20:41] <knome> artir, see my comment
[20:41] <vish> artir: the buttons to left is just to copy OSX ;p
[20:41] <troy_s> artir: The windeco is weak and the moving over to the left can't help but pull some association with OSX.
[20:41] <vish> ha
[20:42] <troy_s> Equiet: You are about a release behind. If you mean the Nebula mauve, you are talking something way speculative.
[20:42] <troy_s> Equiet: Look at Snow Leopard's cover. Look at their site. They suffer from pretty clinical application of colour.
[20:42] <troy_s> Equiet: As in _none_.
[20:42] <artir> troy_s: i agree with that
[20:42] <thorwil> it's an amazing color. everybody uses a different name :)
[20:42] <artir> i instantly thought: mac?
[20:42] <artir> and secondly: lots of users used to top right windows are going to go WTF?!
[20:42] <artir> i hope that's not a default
[20:43] <troy_s> artir: But to look at the clearly crap windeco as a pull down is just foolish. The overall positives VASTLY outweigh the negatives of that poopy crap decision by some ftard.
[20:43] <troy_s> artir: Who cares?
[20:43] <troy_s> artir: Who _really_ cares about Windows?
[20:43] <vish> artir: if you want to be employed in Canonical you need to be a MAC fanboy first ;)
[20:43] <troy_s> artir: Or OSX for that matter?
[20:43] <Equiet> troy_s: And that's beacause purple is the first color that reminds me OS X, excepting white.
[20:43] <artir> vish: most of the UX team have one
[20:43] <artir> :P
[20:43] <thorwil> artir: be really careful now. troy_s being happy and saying positive things, even being optimistic is a precious moment
[20:44] <troy_s> Equiet: You'd be in a minority I'd guess. If you asked a general population as to what colour defines OSX, you might equally get blue thanks to that stale blue wallpaper they had or their default icons etc.
[20:44] <artir> troy_s: I mean ubuntu users
[20:44] <thorwil> artir: maybe you will be able to tell your grandchildren of this historic moment
[20:44] <troy_s> artir: And that is unacceptable too.
[20:44] <artir> we have the buttons at right
[20:44] <artir> XD
[20:45] <artir> comme on the theme is not awesome, but it's not that bad
[20:45] <troy_s> artir: Let me say this loud and clear - Free Software is _not_ fundamentalist nor absolutist. It does not grant you the freedom to support companies that are in direct opposition to the movement.
[20:45] <zniavre> artir,  +1
[20:45] <Equiet> Also, I dislike that color. It was great for me only few months ago, but know I find it unmodern.
[20:45] <troy_s> artir: When jimmac or hylke or _anyone_ uses an Apple product, they are not helping the movement. And even more realistically, they are clearly only half-hearted committed to the cause.
[20:45] <Equiet> *s/know/now
[20:46] <artir> troy_s: until ubuntu becomes the best OS ever, they will use whatever is best to design for ubuntu
[20:46] <artir> linus thinks the same: use best tool for a task, even if it's privative
[20:46] <artir> their use of macos is justified here
[20:46] <troy_s> Equiet: Well that's another matter. I'd probably agree that our culture's agility regarding design really needs to amp up. It needs to be nebulous and mercurial and morph with the speed of thought. Leibniz bless his sould...
[20:46] <troy_s> artir: THAT IS THE PROBLEM.
[20:46] <artir> they will stop using it once ubuntu can do 100% of what they use mac for
[20:46] <troy_s> artir: Look... if the culture actually USED the fricking tools full time, the GLARING holes would be fixed
[20:47] <troy_s> artir: Worse, you are actually supporting a company that would, at all costs, drag down the very core of the ethic.
[20:47] <troy_s> artir: So it is entirely possible that Linus is way off base.
[20:47] <artir> troy_s: when did rms brainwashed you?
[20:47] <troy_s> artir: Did you ever stop to wonder why Linux took the throne away from BSD?
[20:48] <artir> because of GPL?
[20:48] <troy_s> artir: Do the math. Don't be ignorant. If all we end up as is a dime store fricking cheap low rent version of Windows XP that has a free core and proprietary bits all over much like XP / Win 7 / OSX already is, _did we actually achieve anything_?
[20:48] <troy_s> artir: It might be worth arguing that merit - yes.
[20:48] <artir> in the end, i would like a 100% system
[20:48] <artir> much as you do
[20:49] <artir> but having privative stuff now helps tus OS to grow
[20:49] <troy_s> artir: And if the very companies funding Free Software don't have the dedication to tell their employees to use it, what the hell is the point?
[20:49] <artir> they do!
[20:49] <artir> go ask kenvendine, tedg
[20:49] <artir> or those people
[20:49] <troy_s> artir: Think about this question: DO you think for even a brief fleeting moment that Steve Jobs would even _permit_ a Windows 7 box at Cupertino?
[20:49] <artir> ask them why do they (or not) use macos
[20:49] <troy_s> artir: That is a _new_ mandate for certain.
[20:49] <troy_s> :)
[20:49] <artir> obviously not
[20:49] <troy_s> artir: Exactly.
[20:50] <troy_s> artir: And we need _everyone_ to be as passionate as that. The fact that we don't have something should DRIVE the culture, not result in a bunch of half committed fools flipping over to their other boot partition.
[20:50] <troy_s> artir: It is the _very_ reason that Keynote was created as legend has it.
[20:50] <artir> i smell some blog discussion tomorrow :)
[20:50] <troy_s> At any rate, it is a _helluva_ improvement.
[20:51] <troy_s> I am sadly disappointed that the brown is gone however. It was _never_ executed properly and thrown out with the bathwater. It was always given a terrible execution and poor optics.
[20:51] <artir> yeah, brown->orange->beige/violet
[20:51] <artir> they could have done something better with it
[20:52] <artir> canonical will ( i hope ) adjust the theme according to the reaction of the community
[20:52] <knome> orange hasn't gone anywhere.
[20:53] <artir> orange is still there as pure orange
[20:53] <troy_s> artir: I hope they don't.
[20:53] <artir> brown did
[20:53] <troy_s> artir: I sincerely hope they ignore the culture of aesthetically bankrupt buffoonery.
[20:53] <huayra> I have to say you all have done a fantastic job there!
[20:53] <troy_s> artir: Stick to your guns. Play it out. Anyone with a shread of aesthetic analysis should be able to clearly see that there are _many_ more elements going the right way with the new direction as compared with the past.
[20:54] <troy_s> huayra: I believe it is all closed doors at Canonical. kwwii could likely shed light on it.
[20:54] <huayra> I am the driver of SpreadUbuntu and would publicly ask for better cooperation between our projects... Where this makes sense, of course.
[20:54] <artir> troy_s: I agree with that affirmation even more than you
[20:54] <troy_s> artir: But wow... you were right on the windeco. It's like... wow... please ... back to the sketch board. lol.
[20:54] <artir> i hate when they do things secretly
[20:54] <huayra> I have been contacted by Canonical to see what our project (SU) can do with this
[20:55] <troy_s> artir: The problem isn't the secrecy.
[20:55] <troy_s> artir: The issue is with a general aesthetic care that stops at age six or so and then gets really loud by 20something.
[20:55] <huayra> artir, I agree, but I also have to admit that something are better kept off the public eye and within the people doing the work
[20:56] <thorwil> huayra: great. the spreadubuntu/artwork disconnect is one of the things that has been bugging me
[20:56] <artir> well, but periodic information on the project would be welcome
[20:56] <huayra> *some things
[20:56] <troy_s> artir: The ill-informed, clueless, and completely sad understanding of art and design in our collective culture has _bred_ aesthetic bankruptcy. We follow people with no training, no ability, and a delusional conception of aesthetics.
[20:56] <troy_s> artir: Have a peek at GNOME 3's mocks.
[20:56] <huayra> thorwil, I saw your email on the marketing list
[20:56] <artir> which ones?
[20:56] <troy_s> artir: There aren't that many.
[20:56] <artir> gnome shell?
[20:56] <artir> or topaz?
[20:56] <huayra> it was never ment like that. I tried to approach the theme a while ago, but I might not have done it the right way
[20:57] <artir> or the ones from the UX meeting?
[20:57] <troy_s> artir: Yes.
[20:57] <troy_s> http://jimmac.musichall.cz/log/?p=946
[20:57] <thorwil> huayra: approached the theme?
[20:57] <huayra> the team... sorry I am a bit tired here and it's getting late
[20:57] <artir> the greeen toolbar, blue menues, angles tabs mockup
[20:57] <artir> i.e.
[20:57] <artir> ?
[20:57] <huayra> but anyway. It could be very fruitful to see where our themes can cooperate
[20:57] <thorwil> huayra: here, too, actually. lets talk another time :)
[20:58] <huayra> and nonetheless invite the artwork team to use Spread Ubuntu
[20:58] <artir> troy_s: and if they suck that much at doing design, why don't you propose a new theme?
[20:58] <huayra> and we would of course be more than happy to make adaptations
[20:58] <artir> i've read your blog posts
[20:58] <artir> and you seem to understand desing
[20:58] <troy_s> artir: Because 1) it isn't that simple. 2) it has so much hegemony that I could spend my time better elsewhere.
[20:59] <huayra> +1 on artir's comment. I was impressed with your blog thorwil. You and MadsRH are the members in the community that I really respect when it comes to design
[20:59] <troy_s> artir: I am but one fool. We need to all mature collectively to really push these types of rocks up the massive hills. I think we will get there from what I have seen of the community. I was far more skeptical a few years ago.
[20:59] <thorwil> huayra: thank you!
[20:59] <artir> the problem is that as far as things are right now, the new theme will come from the design team at canonical
[20:59] <troy_s> artir: But at the same time, the blind fanboyism and such needs to be tempered with analysis. It's not easy. I don't think anyone with a clue would say it was.
[21:00] <troy_s> artir: That's all good. I can live with that quite happily.
[21:00] <huayra> artir, then we should try to get and cooperate with the Canonical team.
[21:00] <artir> artwork team has tried to do that for a long long time :P
[21:00] <artir> look at the breathe icon set
[21:01] <artir> (i don't know if it's ready)
[21:01] <knome> huayra, artir: the design team is pretty much open to work on the new branding with the community.
[21:01] <artir> but it's better than humanity except for some minor inconsistencies
[21:01] <knome> huayra, artir: just ping iainfarrell
[21:01] <artir> he's here
[21:01] <huayra> knome, I know. iainfarrell and I have had lots of contact lately. What I meant is that we should just get cooperating with the team
[21:02] <vish> knome: you must be kidding right? " the design team is pretty much open to work on the new branding with the community."
[21:02] <knome> vish, no, i am not.
[21:02] <huayra> *we* as in the community
[21:02] <knome> vish, that doesn't mean you will get any changes through which you propose.
[21:03] <huayra> vish, he is not. I can testify that Canonical is very open to community input and even proactive in doing so
[21:03] <knome> vish, they have a solid idea of the branding, and i think they are doing the exact correct thing not changing it when the first person dislikes it.
[21:03] <huayra> in the SU case they wanted to talk to us. I felt really happy to hear from them :-)
[21:07] <troy_s> huayra: Ask yourself this: What can the community possibly bring to the table?
[21:07] <troy_s> huayra: Find me a _single_ member of the community that would be hired at a say, production assistant level at a large company for graphic design / artistic work?
[21:08] <troy_s> huayra: Hate to sound brutally honest on that front, but I bet you can't find one.
[21:08] <troy_s> huayra: Feel free to look at everyone.
[21:08] <huayra> troy_s, what's your point then?
[21:08] <huayra> the whole is greater than the sum of the parts
[21:08] <knome> the community can bring things to the table, but those are for the community projects anyway, where community have more power.
[21:08] <troy_s> huayra: Point is that when someone shows up that can actually bring tangible credibility to the table in some capacity, then perhaps that collaboration will happen.
[21:09] <troy_s> huayra: The community is a huge strength and asset... absolutely. But practically speaking, you have just more or less suggested that you get community members to code for the kernel with no background / training / capability.
[21:09] <huayra> every collaboration is important not in how you messure its professionality, but you meassure it in terms of human capital, time, love for something
[21:10] <troy_s> huayra: Agree 100% with you. That 'emotional investment' is perhaps worth more than money.
[21:10] <huayra> there are people that are not programmers that have contributed fantastic kernel code, yes
[21:10] <troy_s> huayra: But the reality of the community bringing something to the table art / design / execution wise is ... low.
[21:10] <huayra> troy_s: yes
[21:10] <troy_s> huayra: Wow. You need to browse those GIT commit logs. ;)
[21:11] <troy_s> huayra: Just not happening. Even talented coders get declined from the kernel. That's Linus' domain.
[21:11] <huayra> I would say that the core team of every team boils down to 1-5% of everyone in the team
[21:11] <troy_s> huayra: The term you are looking for is the Pareto principle.
[21:11] <huayra> yes, I know troy_s
[21:11] <NoobFukaire> Are the new themes going around available anywhere? the ones for lucid?
[21:11] <NoobFukaire> they look dust based?
[21:11] <troy_s> NoobFukaire: I suspect you will be waiting.
[21:11] <huayra> I am talking experience here, my own in this community
[21:11] <troy_s> NoobFukaire: It certainly has a lineage in Dust doesn't it? Aside from the windeco.
[21:12] <NoobFukaire> yeah
[21:12] <NoobFukaire> I'm not really crazy about it (although i really like dust)
[21:12] <NoobFukaire> but I wanted to try it out
[21:13] <huayra> but troy_s we know this. Can't we just try to make the best out of it and try to empower those contributors so their contribution has more impact even if it just happens once?
[21:13] <troy_s> NoobFukaire: I strongly suspect that you will see changes on that front. Just a total guess.
[21:13] <NoobFukaire> so those are probably mockups then?
[21:13] <troy_s> huayra: Did I ever sound like I was trying to keep the community down? ;) You misread me possibly.
[21:13] <huayra> the core team should work towards building the most effective collaboration platform possible in all the Ubuntu Community projects and teams
[21:13] <troy_s> NoobFukaire: I don't think they are mocks entirely maybe... But the point is that you can expect some changes for certain.
[21:14] <huayra> troy_s: I did not. I know where you stand. I am just trying to get you to jump in my wagon ;)
[21:14] <troy_s> huayra: I'm likely already there. The real source of inspiration comes from the _new_ community. The 'old guard' has mangled things up almost beyond repair.
[21:14] <huayra> NoobFukaire: many of them are mockups. You can certainly expect changes.
[21:14] <thorwil> fun, but i have to, good night! :)
[21:15] <huayra> troy_s, agree. As part of the old guard believeing in the ways of work of the _new_ community I am still here...
[21:16] <huayra> This is too important to be given up because of lack of cooperation skills of a subset of the community
[21:18] <troy_s> huayra: I'd be so bold as to say that a huge amount of progress can be made if those with little caring and attention to art and design just sat down in a corner and shut up.
[21:18] <troy_s> huayra: I have changed my tune on that front a little - I used to be silent about it. But I can't stress it enough that it is rather like having a cluster of vocal people that can't code talking about Kernel issues.
[21:19] <troy_s> huayra: That said, I still hope that we can get some degree of acceptance of cultural differences too. I'd love to see a thriving culture of art and design with unique and disparate cultural vantages. Could be pretty damn cool.
[21:19] <troy_s> huayra: Instead though, we have blind usability polls talking about icons and rubbish.
[21:20] <huayra> you make it sound elithistic, but I kind of agree: If you do not have a qualified voice (qualified here is your inner, logical, voice telling you that your opinions transcends the dialogue
[21:20] <huayra> ) then do not say anything
[21:21] <huayra> so troy_s where do you think that the Artwork team and Spread Ubuntu can work together? Besides, of course, beautifying the Spread Ubuntu site ebven more ;-)
[21:21] <troy_s> huayra: I can't help but sound that way. I hate to sound that way. But I have watched too much rubbish peddled from too many clueless folks. I'm sorry.
[21:22] <troy_s> huayra: I haven't followed spread ubuntu since the dark ages when Dan Buch tried to make it reality. I _really_ loved his vision to be honest.
[21:22] <troy_s> huayra: I was saddened that no one else saw the huge strengths of it.
[21:23] <troy_s> huayra: And doing websites stinks. I've been slaving away with four other folks on the new mythbuntu vision for far too long. It's hard when we are all only capable of splits and splurts.
[21:23] <troy_s> huayra: where is the site currently?
[21:23] <huayra> I have been trying to take over that work and that idea
[21:24] <huayra> http://spreadubuntu.neomenlo.org/
[21:24] <huayra> It has a lot of room for improvement. I know. We are in 0.2 ;-)
[21:24] <huayra> ish
[21:24] <troy_s> huayra: Oops. You probably already know how I feel about that typeface (if you give it that much credibility... perhaps too much.)
[21:24] <troy_s> huayra: Jump on the boat. Kick the old out! lol.
[21:26] <huayra> the project is basically 3 people of which one is making the implementation codewise, the other is getting the community to notice and me doing the PR/Marketing/Political work of the site itself
[21:26] <troy_s> huayra: If you want at least a starting point, I'd suggest you start with a publishing grid.
[21:26] <huayra> the rest is contributions by Ubuntu users worldwide
[21:26] <troy_s> huayra: Believe me... I know how undermanned everyone is. I appreciate that fully.
[21:27] <huayra> all in all we might have had up to 100 different contributors
[21:27] <huayra> maybe even more
[21:27] <huayra> I would like the artwork team to use the site to showcase their newest designs and material
[21:28] <huayra> and whatever adaptations we have to make to the site to make that happen would be made
[21:29] <huayra> troy_s, a publishing grid.. can you ellaborate?
[21:29] <alefteris> hi all! sorry if it's been asked before, but what's the font used in the new logo design?
[21:29] <huayra> remember I work with sales and marketing, but I am by no means a designer
[21:30] <troy_s> huayra: Hrm. Whenever you read a magazine or publishing, there is a secret code buried in it.
[21:30] <Kangarooo> hello. who made design for new branding?
[21:30] <troy_s> huayra: It can look entirely varied, but it is there. There is a sort of infrastructure behind it that you might not see initially.
[21:30] <huayra> alefteris I have tried to extract that font from a source PDF I got, but it only had the "ubnt" chars...-
[21:30] <troy_s> Kangarooo: If I had to bed, I'd say Dom had a huge influence on it.
[21:31] <alefteris> huayra, but at the wiki page, the ubuntu qa seems to use the same font and for q and q chars
[21:32] <alefteris> and a chars*
[21:32] <huayra> alefteris, it's because they have access to the font. I have not. Taht's why the "spread ubuntu" logo uses the ubuntu-title font
[21:32] <huayra> as well as the new one
[21:33] <troy_s> huayra: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Page_layout
[21:34] <troy_s> huayra: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_(page_layout)
[21:36] <huayra> get it. BUt now you are thinking totally professionalized material
[21:36] <huayra> Spread Ubuntu shows the street side of the Community
[21:36] <troy_s> huayra: Not at all.
[21:36] <huayra> where everyone can upload anything they have made
[21:36] <troy_s> huayra: You are aware of Dan Buch's original idea that I helped him out with a bit?
[21:36] <huayra> it's up to their own judgement
[21:37] <huayra> I have analized all the ideas (there are at least 3 I know of before Evan and I took hand of this project)
[21:37] <troy_s> huayra: It was playing into that _exactly_ notion. He took the idea that it was entirely DIY and I said "Push it further", so the actual original vision was to have a site that was sort of like a do-it-yourself store with tape and such on it.
[21:37] <huayra> let me refresh my tired brain
[21:38] <Kangarooo> troy_s: so Dom made it? or many designers made it? theres a project Ubuntu Drupal witch is ment as loco teams website and i would like if a theme as branding would be made for locos
[21:38] <Kangarooo> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu-drupal-theme/+spec/karmic-ud-theme
[21:38] <troy_s> huayra: There may even be a mock or two out there. But the point of a publishing grid should not be lost regardless - they work, they simplify, and they make it manageable.
[21:38] <huayra> but that's what we have. We show you the material and give you the source (SVG/ODT) so you can play
[21:38] <troy_s> Kangarooo: I suspect Dom had a bit of input on it. Pure speculation, but there are elements of his work in there.
[21:38] <huayra> and upload it back if you want
[21:39] <huayra> with strong emphasis in language features and easy access to the stuff... But, as I said, we need more brainpower into the project
[21:39] <troy_s> Kangarooo: You can expect the default site to likely be very much already what you see there as a guess. Remember - I know NOTHING about all of this. I'd just bet that the primary touchpoint of the whole thing - ubuntu.com - will look much like those uh... mocks. ;)
[21:42] <Kangarooo> ok so these designs are confirmed? if yes then loco teams websites would have to look similar. so Ubuntu Drupal if would have this theme made for locos with #ubuntu-artwork team then that would make more recognision as locos to ubuntu. i hope im making sense :)
[21:42] <Kangarooo> it was long day for me with bug making in LP
[21:42] <troy_s> Kangarooo: I would expect that you could run your loco as you wish.
[21:42] <troy_s> Kangarooo: But I have no clue how the drupal etc theming would unfold.
[21:44] <huayra> Kangarooo, I am asking the Ubuntu.copm webmaster if he has something he has been working in
[21:44] <huayra> so the ubuntu.drupal team can have access to it and we do not have to reinvent the wheel
[21:44] <Kangarooo> well 3 options i see now witch comes out of that of course loco can be run as each thinks it needs to be run. 1. dont change design. 2. each loco makes each new design. 3. Ubuntu Drupal theme is made and all locos use UD and new theme. only one theme for all
[21:45] <knome> afaik, the design team is going to supply some kind of drupal theme for the loco's
[21:45] <huayra> so all LoCo's can count on the ubuntu-drupal project to solve that issue. As usual
[21:45] <huayra> that team is full of rock stars!
[21:46] <knome> i think this time the theme would come directly from UX
[21:47] <sanderqd> i hope the 3px window border at the bottom will get removed - the Appearance dialog isn't in balance at the bottom left right now
[21:51] <troy_s> knome: I don't.
[21:52] <troy_s> knome: They should let (if I suspect Dom) handle it. The windeco is appaling.
[21:52] <zacbarton> i wonder how they plan to support the buttons on the left and right in the new theme as the buttons are joined
[21:52] <troy_s> knome: Or even roll with Dust modified slightly. It is unique enough.
[21:52] <troy_s> zacbarton: Simple metacity can do that.
[21:53] <sanderqd> in 10.04 the window borders will be drawn by gtk+, so even more possibilities
[21:53] <zacbarton> troy_s: ive had issues with Homosapien where the buttons are also joined
[21:53] <zacbarton> using the same theme and switching the buttons (via gconf) breaks the theme
[21:54] <zacbarton> i needed a theme for the left and a different one for the right
[21:54] <knome> troy_s, i was talking about the drupal theme.
[21:55] <vish> troy_s: who is Domonique edwards?, any earlier links work of his?
[21:55] <zacbarton> also with windows that just ahve a close button. how will that look. using copiz i expect it wony look to good  - http://www.zacbarton.com/metacity_vs_compiz.png
[21:55] <vish> *links/work
[21:56] <troy_s> vish: He is on Behance.
[21:56] <troy_s> vish: By far the most talented fellow on the design team from what I have seen in terms of aesthetics / execution.
[21:57] <troy_s> zacbarton: It will get sorted. I can't see them keeping that nasty win deco. It's simply awful.
[21:58] <zacbarton> troy_s: yea it will be interesting to see how they tackle the button left vs right problem (which i face with Homosapien also)
[21:58] <zacbarton> i also noticed in the screenshots that there is no menu icon
[22:00] <troy_s> zacbarton: What is the left right problem?
[22:00] <troy_s> zacbarton: You mean getting them over to the left?
[22:00] <zacbarton> another thing (im seeing a lot) is that the buttons in the screenshot appear in the same order as they would on the right (min,max,close) i suspect if the buttons were on the left but in close,max,min order the theme would be screwed
[22:02] <troy_s> zacbarton: I wouldn't worry about it. Baby steps. Let's just hope Dust proper gets pushed and we can call it a general win.
[22:02] <zacbarton> troy_s: not so much in moving theme but in how the theme would be drawn if moved. for eg the close button has a rounded right corner but if you want the close as the first button on the left the corner would need to be on the left
[22:03] <zacbarton> troy_s: not so worried just interested to see how the overcome the problem :-)
[22:04] <troy_s> zacbarton: There are more than enough coders at Canonical that could fix a minor detail like that in about two seconds flat. Some pretty damn brilliant and talented folks actually in the code department.
[22:04] <sanderqd> zacbarton: there is a chance they built this theme using the new gtk+ client-side decoration
[22:05] <zacbarton> sanderqd: then that could change things :-)
[22:06] <troy_s> sanderqd: I'd bet not yet.
[22:06] <troy_s> If I had to gamble, I'd say that in fact what you see is just a loose hack.
[22:06] <troy_s> As in all GTK / Metacity.
[22:06] <troy_s> Nothing special.
[22:06] <troy_s> And if I also had to bet, I'd bet that the window decoration lasts maybe less than a few weeks.
[22:06] <sanderqd> that's a good gamble, but there would be landing some client-side deco themes soon
[22:06] <zacbarton> troy_s: no doubt there is. ill be watching to see what they do. maybe ill end up fixing a issue i have with Homosapien (without having to cde for buttons on left and buttons on right)
[22:07] <zacbarton> id love to see how to fix it properly
[22:07] <zacbarton> cde = code
[22:12] <vish> troy_s: ha ,found him , had his spelling wrong ;)
[22:15] <troy_s> vish: Yep.
[22:40] <kwwii> hey troy_s
[22:40] <troy_s> kwwii: Greets Ken.
[22:40] <troy_s> kwwii: How are things?
[22:40] <kwwii> how's things this evening?
[22:40] <kwwii> hehe, good!
[22:41] <kwwii> ivanka showed me your email ;)
[22:41] <troy_s> kwwii: Rendering. Trying desperately to get it out.
[22:41] <troy_s> kwwii: She deserves it.
[22:41] <kwwii> hehe
[22:41] <kwwii> troy_s: now you beleive me?
[22:41] <kwwii> ;)
[22:41] <troy_s> kwwii: She pushed a monumental rock up a hill that ... well let's say the hill doesn't like the idea I'm sure at first.
[22:41] <troy_s> kwwii: Shup and fix that fricking windeco.
[22:41] <kwwii> lol
[22:41] <troy_s> kwwii: I had a hunch Dom's fingers are ALL over that.
[22:42] <kwwii> we are building it in csd as well as normal metacity
[22:42] <kwwii> lol, actually marcus and otto did the brand and font work
[22:42] <troy_s> kwwii: Everything is extremely tight... glaring obvious oopsies are the assy looking plasticy monstrosity of a computer (aka the ongoing battle of nasty photography) and that fricking windeco.
[22:42] <troy_s> kwwii: But small points really.
[22:42] <kwwii> the font stuff is amazing ;)
[22:42] <kwwii> hehe
[22:42] <troy_s> kwwii: The emblem is ... something wrong there.
[22:42] <kwwii> true
[22:43] <kwwii> for lucid there are still a lot of changes coming in
[22:43] <troy_s> kwwii: I just get the feeling that you all should have brought in a true specialist like David Airey.
[22:43] <kwwii> but for lucid I doubt we will be able to fix everything as we would like
[22:43] <troy_s> kwwii: The typeface is solid. The emblem is sort of ... just plain ... odd.
[22:43] <kwwii> yeah
[22:43] <troy_s> kwwii: Can't finger it, but it's there.
[22:43] <troy_s> kwwii: And it really feels tacked on, which is probably a larger concern.
[22:43] <kwwii> i think it was one of those pieces that we couldn't change
[22:44] <kwwii> so it kinda came along as-is as best as possible
[22:44] <troy_s> kwwii: As though a great deal of thought went into the face (who did it?) and not a lot into how to make that CoF fit.
[22:44] <troy_s> kwwii: There isn't much wrong with the actual logo itself... just seems tacked onto the whole thing.
[22:44] <troy_s> kwwii: But anyways, it's like bickering over the number of sesame seeds on the bun.
[22:44] <kwwii> ;)
[22:45] <troy_s> kwwii: Neither here nor there. Windeco needs help and love though. God please.
[22:45] <kwwii> and it will become better, no worries
[22:45] <kwwii> we honestly have long-term plans now ;)
[22:45] <troy_s> kwwii: I'd guess as much. Crappers... even just a mod of dust.
[22:46] <troy_s> kwwii: Good. That's positive.
[22:46] <troy_s> kwwii: A huge step up on the splash too. That thing we are blessed with right now is ... ugh.
[22:46] <troy_s> kwwii: When all else fails, gut it. lol.
[22:47] <kwwii> lol
[22:48] <troy_s> kwwii: The bulk of that presentation is Dom's work though on the web I'd guess. I can see the grid etc. It has obvious win.
[22:49] <troy_s> kwwii: I only hope that whoever did the type didn't seriously come too close without paying due respect. If that is a copy of a face somewhere or too close, you can expect nothing short of a nightmare backlash.
[22:50] <troy_s> kwwii: Hilarious Ivanka showed you the email.
[22:51] <kwwii> troy_s: well, the team is closer than you would think
[22:51] <troy_s> kwwii: Not at all.
[22:51] <kwwii> we all just got back from the pub ;)
[22:51] <troy_s> kwwii: That's a good thing.
[22:51] <kwwii> and for my part, i am going to head down to the hotel bar and get another drink!
[22:51] <troy_s> Lol.
[22:54] <knome> kwwii, haha, congrats :P
[22:58] <MTecknology> Kangarooo: hi
[22:58] <Kangarooo> hi MTecknology
[23:59] <bognarandras> hi! so... in lucid there is only one panel or the bottom panel is just hide on the new brand screenshots? (sorry for the bad english)