[00:00] <humphreybc> holy mackeral
[00:00] <humphreybc> we have 361 fans on facebook...
[00:00] <godbyk> cool
[00:00] <semioticrobotic> life's tough when you're famous
[00:00] <humphreybc> 13 days ago we had 169...
[00:00] <humphreybc> that's nuts
[00:01] <humphreybc> http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Ubuntu-Manual/266794861575?ref=ts
[00:03] <humphreybc> guys check the top of the pad
[00:03] <humphreybc> i'm making a top 5 list
[00:03] <humphreybc> have a look, tell me what you think
[00:03] <humphreybc> and when Ilya comes in, let him know about this pad
[00:05] <Red_HamsterX> Having trouble thinking of a fifth point?
[00:05] <kklimonda> humphreybc: any reason why quickshot doesn't use GtkAssistant to set up everything? time constraint?
[00:05] <Red_HamsterX> Mmm... LaTeX...
[00:05] <Red_HamsterX> Good choice.
[00:06] <humphreybc> kklimonda: no idea, i started it with quickly
[00:06] <humphreybc> because that seemed easiest from what i was told
[00:07] <godbyk> humphreybc: re: translators. if they're translating to a new language have them email me to give me a heads-up.
[00:07] <kklimonda> humphreybc: I was thinking about using GtkAssistant widget to display all pages of the setup phase (i.e. user creation etc.)
[00:11] <semioticrobotic> top five list is looking good, benjamin
[00:11] <humphreybc> semioticrobotic: you're bryan, right?
[00:12] <semioticrobotic> yep ... it's me
[00:12] <humphreybc> kklimonda: okay, sounds good - you'll have to chat to TommyBrunn or Luke Jennings to sort it out. I'll put their email addresses up on the to do list
[00:15] <semioticrobotic> okay folks ... gotta get my lectures ready for tomorrow's classes
[00:16] <semioticrobotic> I'll check the pad in a day or two for an update on progress
[00:17] <humphreybc> sweet as
[03:01] <Red_HamsterX> Okay, I won't be able to get anything done tonight, but I'll dive right into the code tomorrow, at the first chance I get.
[03:54] <humphreybc> hi guys, i'm back
[03:55] <humphreybc> had coffee with Tim, Launchad/bzr release manager
[03:55] <humphreybc> he suggested a pretty cool way to do this quickshot thing and he's going to help with the launchpad side of stuff
[03:59] <Red_HamsterX> How many Canonical employees did you say there were in .nz again?
[03:59] <Red_HamsterX> Also, what's his idea? I'm just starting to look at the code now.
[03:59] <Red_HamsterX> (I got home an hour ago)
[04:00] <Red_HamsterX> I probably should have line-broken that.
[04:07] <humphreybc> um i think there are 2 or 3
[04:07] <humphreybc> do you have skype?
[04:07] <humphreybc> (easier to explain over skype)
[04:10] <Red_HamsterX> I do not. Something about a non-free protocol and me coming from the Debian world. :(
[04:11] <Red_HamsterX> So the code, at this stage, is basically "display about"?
[04:12] <humphreybc> okay, that's all good
[04:12] <humphreybc> basically Tim thinks we should create a new user on Launchpad for Quickshot
[04:12] <humphreybc> upload an SSH key for that user
[04:12] <humphreybc> then attach the SSH key to Quickshot
[04:13] <humphreybc> so everyone who uses Quickshot acts as "that user"
[04:13] <Red_HamsterX> And then share the private key with the users on all test systems?
[04:13] <humphreybc> and they'd have full write access to the branch
[04:13] <humphreybc> no we'd keep it private
[04:13] <humphreybc> i guess
[04:13] <Red_HamsterX> How would they push changes, then?
[04:13] <humphreybc> it's attached to quickshot
[04:13] <humphreybc> so quickshot *is* the user
[04:14] <humphreybc> and the "quickshot launchpad user" owns the branch(es)
[04:14] <humphreybc> so anyone with quickshot can push
[04:14] <humphreybc> ie, write to the branch
[04:14] <humphreybc> he then suggests that when someone is pushing we lock the branch until they're done - bzr automatically will wait until the branch becomes available to push - we can just display a message saying that someone else is pushing and it won't take long
[04:14] <Red_HamsterX> No, I get that... but a private key is needed for the commit, unless I'm missing something about how Launchpad/BZR commits work.
[04:15] <humphreybc> well i'm not sure of that detail, but he is the release manager for bzr/launchpad so it all comes under his domain
[04:15] <humphreybc> i can talk to him to clarify stuff like that
[04:15] <humphreybc> he says he'll do as much as he can to iron out any kinks on the launchpad end to make it easier for us
[04:15] <Red_HamsterX> It's a pretty trivial detail in any case. If the ey gets compromised, the worst that can happen is that a rollback is needed.
[04:15] <Red_HamsterX> key*
[04:15] <humphreybc> yeah, exactly
[04:16] <humphreybc> as for having multiple branches or not, it really depends how big each image will be
[04:16] <humphreybc> if each image is >100kb then multiply that by 50 then by 47
[04:16] <Red_HamsterX> We could do a quick test with PIL and indexed PNGs.
[04:16] <humphreybc> yeah
[04:16] <humphreybc> i suggest that we stay with branches for each language
[04:16] <Red_HamsterX> (To see if they're usable when indexed)
[04:16] <humphreybc> because it's already half set up
[04:17] <humphreybc> and we can just set the quickshot user as the owner for the project - ie, the owner for the branches
[04:17] <humphreybc> he also mentioned to use bzrlib
[04:17] <humphreybc> and to talk to lifeless, who is the canonical employee who is the main developer for bzr
[04:17] <humphreybc> so i'll see if i can grab him
[04:19] <Red_HamsterX> bzrlib looks pretty well-documented... I could probably have that running in a couple of hours this weekend.
[04:20] <Red_HamsterX> Though it probably shouldn't be a high priority... I mean, once everything else is done, it's just a matter of running the command fifty times, distributed amongst multiple users, and it's not hard to type it out.
[04:21] <Red_HamsterX> It would be nice to have it ready in preparation for 10.10, though.
[04:21] <humphreybc> well, we were aiming for 10.04 .... :)
[04:21] <humphreybc> (yes our project is crazy)
[04:22] <Red_HamsterX> I don't think it's unachievable.
[04:22] <humphreybc> just tough, right?
[04:23] <Red_HamsterX> I can hack code pretty fast.
[04:23] <humphreybc> :)
[04:23] <humphreybc> i'll grab thumper to see if he can come in here and chat to you
[04:23] <Red_HamsterX> I'll do my best to please you this weekend.
[04:27] <Red_HamsterX> So is the plan, post-grabbing-of-screenshots, to apply a series of (top, left, width, height) values to each image to extract the relevant rectangles for automatic insertion into a translatable LaTeX document?
[04:31] <humphreybc> ugh - i think so. Tommy's the one to talk to about that, and Luke - they know more about it than I.
[04:32] <humphreybc> but they're conveniently asleep now :)
[04:32] <humphreybc> http://doc.bazaar.canonical.com/bzr.dev/developers/integration.html
[04:34] <Red_HamsterX> I'll try to catch them earlier tomorrow, then.
[04:34] <Red_HamsterX> Since I'd probably be able t help most by writing libraries while they focus on design.
[04:34] <Red_HamsterX> Until I'm fully up to speed.
[04:35] <humphreybc> awesome
[04:35] <humphreybc> i'll ask thumper if he can join this channel too
[04:35] <Red_HamsterX> I'll be going to sleep shortly, unfortunately.
[04:36] <Red_HamsterX> I need to be up for 4:20 to make it to my place of workage.
[04:36] <humphreybc> that's okay, i mean just for future
[04:36] <humphreybc> crap!
[05:28] <wolter> hi
[05:28] <wolter> who is the creator of the ubuntu manual webpage/
[05:28] <wolter> (report in if present)
[05:36] <wolter> well, if you (creator) read this, email me at wolterh6@gmail.com
[07:20] <humphreybc> hi Rudi!
[07:21] <Rudi> hello humphreybc!
[07:21] <humphreybc> so what would you say is your biggest skill?
[07:21] <humphreybc> or what would you most like to do?
[07:21] <humphreybc> if you take a look at this, it's a list of things that need to be done: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/aA6ygCXL9F
[07:21] <Rudi> I'm not really sure, I looked at the blue prints and they all seemed to be going pretty well
[07:21] <Rudi> I can do the screenshots, once the RC/beta is released
[07:22] <Rudi> I can also edit
[07:22] <humphreybc> well if you're confident in english and know about ubuntu, we really need help on two chapters
[07:22] <Rudi> allrighty :)
[07:23] <Rudi> which two?
[07:23] <humphreybc> chapter 4 and 6 are the big ones that are lacking
[07:23] <humphreybc> you know how to use bzr?
[07:23] <humphreybc> on the etherpad, take a look under the heading "MANUAL"
[07:23] <Rudi> ok...
[07:24] <vish> godbyk: / humphreybc: what is the background color of the pdf? #000 or off white?
[07:24] <Rudi> the part where i can see people writing at the moment?
[07:25] <humphreybc> i thiink it's plain white but not sure
[07:25] <humphreybc> actually it should be plain white
[07:25] <vish> hmm..
[07:25] <humphreybc> because it's to be printed, right?
[07:26] <humphreybc> so we don't want to make them print full page off white
[07:26] <humphreybc> :)
[07:26] <vish> ;)  yeah , but still the pdf would have a background color , iirc
[07:26] <vish> where is the pdf located , too many folders in the branch 0.o
[07:27] <humphreybc> you have to build it :P
[07:27] <vish> pff..
[07:27] <humphreybc> run make
[07:27] <humphreybc> it's very simple
[07:27] <humphreybc> oh wait
[07:27] <humphreybc> do you not have latex?
[07:27] <humphreybc> i'll make it for you, hold up one se
[07:27] <humphreybc> sec*
[07:27] <vish> i dont think so :(
[07:28] <humphreybc> okay, give me two secs
[07:28] <vish> ty
[07:29] <Rudi> humphreybc, i have bzr installed and i'm ready to go :)
[07:30] <humphreybc> cool, run "bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual"
[07:30] <Rudi> bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual
[07:30] <Rudi> lol
[07:31] <Rudi> my bad
[07:32] <humphreybc> yup
[07:32] <humphreybc> then you'll need to run the install script under /pkgs
[07:33] <humphreybc> which install LaTeX 2009 I think
[07:33] <humphreybc> it's a fairly big download, 2GB or so (sorry!)
[07:33] <humphreybc> if you don't want to do that it's not the end of the world
[07:33] <humphreybc> you can work on the chapters in the .tex files themselves in a program like gedit
[07:33] <vish>  2GB for latex install! o.0 OMFG
[07:34] <humphreybc> you just won't be able to compile it into a PDF to see what your work looks like, but you can push your new stuff and one of us can check it if you like. I recommend install latex anyway
[07:34] <Rudi> I only have 3GB of bandwidth a month :O
[07:34] <humphreybc> ah
[07:34] <Rudi> bandwidth starved south africa...
[07:34] <humphreybc> well, in that case, write your chapters in .text files in the correct directory
[07:35] <Rudi> oki :)
[07:35] <humphreybc> and one of us can take what you've written and convert it to tex files with commands and stuff
[07:35] <humphreybc> :)
[07:37]  * vish still waiting for pdf from humphreybc ;)
[07:37] <humphreybc> oh
[07:37] <humphreybc> oops!
[07:37] <humphreybc> i forgot for a sec, got distracted
[07:37] <humphreybc> :P
[07:38] <vish> ;)
[07:42] <humphreybc> sry battery ran out
[07:42] <vish> no probs , just push to bzr? /ubuntu-manual/graphics/ when you are free
[07:43]  * vish bbl
[07:43] <humphreybc> yep
[07:46] <Rudi> humphreybc, i am now connected to the branch
[07:46] <humphreybc> kk hold up one sec
[07:46] <Rudi> had to add an ssh key to launchpad
[07:47] <humphreybc> vish, pushing now, revision 383
[07:47] <humphreybc> /graphics/main.pdf
[07:48] <thorwil> good morning!
[07:49] <humphreybc> morning!
[07:50] <humphreybc> Rudi, cool, so you can see the files and stuff?
[08:00] <ronald_> Hello, my name is Ronald an active member of the Ubuntu Zimbabwe LoCo team
[08:00] <humphreybc> hi ronald!
[08:00] <ronald_> I am available to invest time in writing chapters and proof reading the manual
[08:00] <humphreybc> yay!
[08:01] <humphreybc> have you got experience with bzr or latex?
[08:01] <ronald_> unfortunately no, I am prepared to learn
[08:01] <humphreybc> okay
[08:01] <humphreybc> so, you'll need to do this: sudo apt-get install bzr
[08:02] <ronald_> done
[08:02] <humphreybc> cool
[08:02] <humphreybc> now, make a new directory in your home folder called "projects" or something
[08:03] <humphreybc> then inside that folder, run "bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual"
[08:03] <humphreybc> you'll want to set up bzr too, use bzr whoami
[08:04] <ronald_> with the quotes??
[08:04] <humphreybc> nope
[08:05] <humphreybc> have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Help
[08:05] <humphreybc> also check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/contributions
[08:06] <ronald_> I will, its downloading something
[08:11] <humphreybc> ubuntujenkins, meet thumper :)
[08:11] <thumper> ubuntujenkins: hi
[08:11] <thumper> heh
[08:12] <thumper> scared off already
[08:12] <ubuntujenkins> hi thumper
[08:12] <ubuntujenkins> sorry about that lucid has a very anoying enter key bug for me
[08:13] <thumper> :)
[08:13] <thorwil> godbyk: did you talk with Charlene already?
[08:14] <humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: thumper is the canonical project lead for launchpad/bzr integration
[08:14] <ubuntujenkins> ooo nice
[08:14] <humphreybc> i had coffee with him today and he has a cool idea for the quickshot bzr stuff
[08:14] <thumper> I was thinking I should talk to lifeless before we charge down one track
[08:14] <thumper> I have a feeling that the entire picture store could be done with a single branch
[08:14] <thumper> without hitting the users too much
[08:14] <ubuntujenkins> lifeless is a person right?
[08:15] <thumper> ubuntujenkins: yep
[08:15] <thumper> lifeless is a core bzr developer
[08:15] <thumper> and a very smart guy
[08:16] <ubuntujenkins> fair eonough, when I spoke to people in #bzr they said we can't do it untill nesting was implimented but it would be easyier if we could do it
[08:17] <ubuntujenkins> what time zone is liffless in?
[08:18] <ubuntujenkins> thumper did you have any other suggestions?
[08:19] <thumper> ubuntujenkins: UTC+10
[08:19] <thumper> I've just been thinking about the branch layout
[08:19] <ubuntujenkins> cool
[08:19] <thumper> there is nothing to say that a PGP _has_ to be private
[08:19] <thumper> only that it _should_ be private
[08:19] <thumper> or SSH key really
[08:20] <vish> humphreybc: seems you pushed an empty commit >  http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/main/revision/383  , the pdf isnt actually added
[08:20] <thumper> by having a shared private key you open yourself up to potential abuse
[08:20] <ubuntujenkins> sure I follow so far
[08:20] <thumper> one thing that you'd want to do is to set append only on the branches
[08:20] <thumper> that way if someone did try to remove stuff
[08:21] <thumper> you can just revert their commits
[08:21] <thumper> and you won't lose data
[08:21] <ubuntujenkins> right i will look at that
[08:21] <thumper> humphreybc: do this `bzr alias commit="commit --strict"`
[08:22] <thumper> humphreybc: that way commit will fail if there are unknown files
[08:22] <thumper> humphreybc: which happens when you forget to add
[08:22] <humphreybc> i added a file though
[08:22] <humphreybc> it *is* there
[08:22] <humphreybc> i'll try again in a minute, hold up folks
[08:23] <ubuntujenkins> thumper I am utc, I will just nip and have a show I have lectures in 20 mins
[08:23] <ubuntujenkins> *shower
[08:24] <thumper> ubuntujenkins: ETOOMUCHINFO
[08:24] <ubuntujenkins> lol
[08:30] <ronald_> humphreybc - I have followed your instructions, whats the next step?
[08:31] <humphreybc> ronald_: sorry :)
[08:31] <humphreybc> so you've pulled the branch?
[08:31] <humphreybc> how much bandwidth do you get a month?
[08:31] <humphreybc> ie, what's your internet plan like
[08:32] <ubuntujenkins> back thumper
[08:32] <ronald_> I am on a fiber network, bandwidth is not a challenge I work for an ISP, I have free Internet from 7 pm to 7 am
[08:32] <humphreybc> yay!
[08:32] <humphreybc> godbyk: piong
[08:32] <humphreybc> ping, well, piong could work too i suppose
[08:33] <ubuntujenkins> I have never seen the channel so busy
[08:33] <humphreybc> oh believe me it's been busier than this!
[08:33] <humphreybc> you should have seen the first meeting....
[08:33] <humphreybc> wow.
[08:34] <ubuntujenkins> I didn't join untill the second or third unfortunatley
[08:34] <humphreybc> okay, so ronald_ you'll now have to run /pkgs/install-pkgs.sh
[08:35] <humphreybc> this might take a while, as it will install LaTeX 2009 and a whole heap of fonts and dependencies, which come to about 2GB
[08:35] <ronald_> it says bash: /pkgs/install-pkgs.sh: No such file or directory
[08:35] <IlyaHaykinson_> ./pkgs/install-pkgs.sh from the ubuntu-manual directory
[08:36] <IlyaHaykinson_> include the ./ at the beginning
[08:36] <ronald_> thanks
[08:36] <humphreybc> vish, the reason the branch didn't detect the pdf was because it was in .bzrignore - but i'm just going to rename it and push again. i should have realised in the first place, d'oh!
[08:37] <humphreybc> vish, revision 384, /graphics/manual.pdf :)
[08:38] <humphreybc> ah TommyBrunn is here now!
[08:39] <humphreybc> TommyBrunn, meet thumper - Canonical launchpad/bzr release manager
[08:39] <TommyBrunn> Hey there.
[08:39] <thumper> humphreybc: just the release manager for 10.02 of Launchpad
[08:39] <thumper> normally just called launchpad-code team lead
[08:39] <humphreybc> thumper: okay :)
[08:39] <IlyaHaykinson_> *sigh* the software center could be so much better....
[08:40] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson_: i agree totally
[08:40] <IlyaHaykinson_> they certainly have plans to improve it, by v4
[08:40] <IlyaHaykinson_> i.e. 11.04
[08:40] <humphreybc> yeah
[08:40] <humphreybc> seems to be making rather slow progress?
[08:40] <IlyaHaykinson_> but, well, that's a while from now. and until then, there's user confusion.
[08:41] <IlyaHaykinson_> probably just not a lot of resources dedicated to it. after all, this is actually written by canonical.
[08:41] <humphreybc> hehe
[08:41] <humphreybc> what's it written in?
[08:41] <IlyaHaykinson_> no idea, actually.
[08:42] <IlyaHaykinson_> ah. python + gtk
[08:42] <humphreybc> that's what i guessed
[08:43] <humphreybc> so for a python app that's basically just a gui front end to apt, and considering they have synaptic to take stuff from, it's taking them a long time to make any progress. oh well.
[08:43] <IlyaHaykinson_> hm, well, there's more to it of course
[08:43] <humphreybc> what can ya do? haha
[08:43] <humphreybc> well yes
[08:43] <humphreybc> the whole app review system is new
[08:44] <IlyaHaykinson_> indeed. plus everything simple is always more complex than it seems :)
[08:44] <humphreybc> take quickshot for example...
[08:44] <humphreybc> lol
[08:44] <IlyaHaykinson_> so i bet just getting the UI to work right, and fast, and reliably, is a big enough challenge
[08:44] <IlyaHaykinson_> for a few part-time devs
[08:44] <humphreybc> or UMP - all we're doing is writing documentation, but it seems to be very hard haha
[08:44] <IlyaHaykinson_> :)
[08:45] <IlyaHaykinson_> maybe some day when i have a ton of free time, i'll pick a project like the software center and start hacking on it.
[08:45] <IlyaHaykinson_> i love python, and would love to learn some gtk+ in the process of working on something
[08:46] <IlyaHaykinson_> (but don't try to recruit me for quickly or GC, heh)
[08:46] <IlyaHaykinson_> er, quickshot
[08:46] <humphreybc> heh
[08:46] <humphreybc> yeah i'm the same
[08:47] <humphreybc> btw, IlyaHaykinson_ http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/aA6ygCXL9F
[08:47] <humphreybc> oh and ubuntujenkins: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/aA6ygCXL9F
[08:47] <humphreybc> and pretty much everyone
[08:47] <ubuntujenkins> yep got it already thansk
[08:47] <humphreybc> cool
[08:48] <humphreybc> wasn't sure if you had or not
[08:48] <IlyaHaykinson_> nod; saw it.
[08:49] <humphreybc> oh btw, i cleaned up the main page of the wiki today
[08:50] <humphreybc> it should now be easier for new users
[08:50] <humphreybc> and i decided we're now on 64% completion :P
[08:50]  * humphreybc loves the completely unscientific progress bar
[08:51] <IlyaHaykinson_> :)
[08:51] <IlyaHaykinson_> i dispute your finding; 63.9% would have been a lot more appropriate!
[08:52] <humphreybc> haha
[08:52] <humphreybc> see i opted for 64% instead of 65% to make it look like we've got some hardout "live" thing
[08:52] <humphreybc> next time i update it i'll make it something like 68.1%
[08:52] <humphreybc> hehe
[08:53] <humphreybc> godbyk: could you please switch the website on test.ubuntu-manual.org to wolter's one now
[08:53] <humphreybc> thanks :)
[08:54] <rudi> humpreybc, i got bzr to start "fetching revisions, inserting stream data"
[08:54] <rudi> is that correct?
[08:57] <humphreybc> yep
[08:57] <humphreybc> just wait for a bit, it's downloading our project files
[08:57] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson_: rudi and ronald_ are going to help with writing and editing
[08:58] <humphreybc> guys, Ilya is basically in charge of coordinating the authors
[08:59] <IlyaHaykinson_> rudi, ronald_: we need most help in chapters 4 (hardware) and 6 (system maintenance) right now.
[08:59] <ronald_> noted
[09:00] <rudi> aye captain!
[09:00] <IlyaHaykinson_> the harware chapter is about 1/10th finished, at best.
[09:00] <IlyaHaykinson_> i think ubuntujenkins was going to take some portions of it
[09:00] <IlyaHaykinson_> i believe printing and sound
[09:01] <IlyaHaykinson_> so i would prefer if one of you can take CD/DVD burning
[09:02] <IlyaHaykinson_> another can take webcams and scanning (these two should be simpler or require less text for now)
[09:02] <IlyaHaykinson_> or, one of you can take Chapter 6 on and start thinking about it.
[09:02] <IlyaHaykinson_> any takers?
[09:02] <rudi> i'm currently looking at chapter 6 as we speak
[09:03] <humphreybc> also, IlyaHaykinson_ rudi is on a 3GB bandwidth limit a month
[09:03] <humphreybc> so he's not going to download latex
[09:03] <humphreybc> but rather write his chapter in .txt files
[09:03] <humphreybc> then someone can convert them into .tex and insert commands. thoughts?
[09:03] <humphreybc> rudi, you can see the completed PDF in /graphics/manual.pdf
[09:04] <rudi> humphreybc,i'll go check quickly
[09:04] <humphreybc> that's what it looks like when you compile it if you had LaTeX 2009
[09:04] <humphreybc> you could probably learn latex commands just by looking at the tex files and then seeing what happens in the pdf. it's not that hard, ie, \textbf{} makes the text inside the braces bold
[09:04] <humphreybc> eg, \textbf{this text now becomes bold}
[09:05] <humphreybc> ah, jaminday!
[09:05] <humphreybc> just the person i wanted to talk to!
[09:05] <jaminday> hehe heya
[09:05] <IlyaHaykinson_> for chapter 4, see the proposed outline at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Blueprints/Hardware
[09:05] <humphreybc> can you sort out your editors and get them to compile a progress report of their assigned chapter?
[09:05] <humphreybc> so get them to rate it out of 10, 10 being completed, 0 being not even started
[09:05] <IlyaHaykinson_> note that this proposed outline is not comprehensive -- it may need to be expanded or contracted as needed
[09:05] <rudi> humphreybc i can see the pdf, it looks awesome
[09:05] <jaminday> yep - i just saw that on the to-do list
[09:06] <rudi> i'll use the latex commands that i can see
[09:06] <humphreybc> and then you'll need to tell them to chase up the authors if their chapter is anything below an 8
[09:06] <rudi> whereverpossible
[09:06] <IlyaHaykinson_> for example, the section on webcams doesn't need to go into  detail on ekiga
[09:06] <humphreybc> we want the editors and the authors working as a team of two people
[09:06] <rudi> what about cheese?
[09:06] <jaminday> you want them to post the update on the whiteboard of their blueprint?
[09:06] <humphreybc> that would be great
[09:06] <IlyaHaykinson_> we can mention cheese, but not cover it since it's not installed by default
[09:07] <jaminday> e.g. chapter currently at x out of 10 completion etc
[09:07] <humphreybc> or get them to email the results to you, and you can send a summary to me or Ilya, or the list
[09:07] <humphreybc> yep. so the idea is that the authors write the chapter, they report to their _editor_
[09:07] <jaminday> yeah ok i'll do that, that way i can collate it better
[09:07] <IlyaHaykinson_> rudi: if you send text files to me, i will incorporate them into the chapter.
[09:07] <humphreybc> the editor and the author work together closely as a _team_
[09:07] <IlyaHaykinson_> for Chapter 6, we don't really have a good chapter outline yet
[09:07] <jaminday> i'll reiterate that - the team thing - in the email i'll send out
[09:07] <humphreybc> when they are both satisfied that the chapter is a 10/10, it gets signed off and that's the end of that
[09:07] <IlyaHaykinson_> and what's in the table of contents is just a hint of what could be included, not the actual outline
[09:07] <humphreybc> awesome
[09:08] <IlyaHaykinson_> so someone needs to think through what would make a good chapter
[09:08] <humphreybc> by team i mean, they should be talking to each other in here, private emails, skype if they must
[09:08] <IlyaHaykinson_> given the time constraints
[09:08] <jaminday> is the 10/10 completion rating to be used for an overall completion scale for the website as per earlier discussions?
[09:08] <humphreybc> also, if an editor is lucky enough to have multiple authors -  then that's their team :)
[09:08]  * IlyaHaykinson_ reports his status on chapter 4: chapter is not doing well, no authors, so no editing.
[09:09] <humphreybc> jamin, not really, we're just manually doing that. check out the main wiki page
[09:09] <jaminday> IlyaHaykinson: hmm, that is a problem
[09:09] <humphreybc> i just made a progress bar myself and we estimated the completion :D
[09:09] <humphreybc> who *was* writing 4?
[09:09] <jaminday> humphreybc: ah cool i like it!
[09:09] <IlyaHaykinson_> jaminday: nod. hence i'm recruiting ubuntujenkins, rudi, ronald_, and possibly anyone else
[09:09] <IlyaHaykinson_> oh, various people over time.
[09:09] <humphreybc> jaminday, thanks :) it's also in the sidebar here: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/
[09:09] <IlyaHaykinson_> the original author dropped out
[09:10] <IlyaHaykinson_> i recruited four more
[09:10] <humphreybc> okay
[09:10] <humphreybc> nice work
[09:10] <IlyaHaykinson_> of which two submitted a bit of copy
[09:10] <IlyaHaykinson_> then disappeared
[09:10] <jaminday> IlyaHaykinson: excellent. Good to see we have some new people to help out as well
[09:10] <humphreybc> what happened to Wendy?
[09:10] <IlyaHaykinson_> i think wendy never got ubuntu installed
[09:10] <humphreybc> darn
[09:10] <IlyaHaykinson_> i think anyone with tech writign experience should be put to editing, not writing...
[09:10]  * humphreybc this room might be busier than offtopic :O
[09:10] <humphreybc> okay
[09:11] <humphreybc> well we have some editors
[09:11] <humphreybc> bryan is editing
[09:11] <humphreybc> and he's doing a great job
[09:11] <IlyaHaykinson_> right. i know.
[09:11] <IlyaHaykinson_> well, ....
[09:11] <humphreybc> yeah
[09:11] <IlyaHaykinson_> bryan is doing mainly grammar changes
[09:11] <IlyaHaykinson_> that's not editing
[09:11] <humphreybc> well maybe rudi can you edit?
[09:11] <humphreybc> since you don't have latex installed
[09:11] <IlyaHaykinson_> well, rather, that's minor editing
[09:11] <humphreybc> okay, well, perhaps ask him to do bigger edits?
[09:11] <humphreybc> perhaps he doesn't know how much he's actually allowed to change
[09:11] <IlyaHaykinson_> right now a lot of the changes we need are for structure, presentation order, completeness, etc.
[09:12] <IlyaHaykinson_> well, have him take a cue from me. i
[09:12] <IlyaHaykinson_> i'm mercilessly rewriting portions.
[09:12] <jaminday> yeah Bryan is probably still getting a feel for the project so making some smaller changes initially
[09:12] <IlyaHaykinson_> anyone who has a problem, can easily revert me, i won't get upset. :)
[09:12] <jaminday> IlyaHaykinson: yes me too, although i've been somewhat quiet on the editing front for a while now
[09:12] <IlyaHaykinson_> so Bryan should feel free to do likewise.
[09:12] <humphreybc> okay, jamin, how many people are actually *actively* editing?
[09:12] <IlyaHaykinson_> jaminday: yes. *glares* :)
[09:12] <jaminday> hehe
[09:13] <rudi> i don't mind editing
[09:13] <rudi> i think i'd actually prefer it
[09:13] <jaminday> humphreybc: i'd say about 3-4 *actively* editing although not much has happened for a while
[09:13]  * humphreybc wonders if it's worth asking the docs team if they could spare anyone...
[09:13] <jaminday> some have been waiting for more content
[09:13] <jaminday> rudi: that might be good
[09:13] <humphreybc> okay, rudi, you're now an editor :)
[09:14] <humphreybc> jaminday, what chapters *need* editing?
[09:14] <jaminday> although we do need content written pretty urgently so there is something there to edit!
[09:14] <humphreybc> true
[09:14] <humphreybc> okay, so, Ilya, how many people do we have actively writing stuff?
[09:14] <rudi> well i can write content too
[09:14] <IlyaHaykinson_> well, right now i think we mainly need chapter 4 and 6 written
[09:14] <humphreybc> i talked to matt griffin tonight and he's going to add in his rhythmbox/music store/ubuntu one stuff soon
[09:14] <IlyaHaykinson_> OR we need to decide to cut them completely
[09:15] <IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: good. though how soon is soon? he didn't reply to a recent mail from me.
[09:15] <jaminday> humphreybc: I don't think John Hart stuck around - i think he had too many bzr/LP issues so his assigned chapter probably needs an allocated editor
[09:15] <humphreybc> well the writing freeze is no the 31st, you guys all know that right?
[09:15] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson_: he knows about the writing freeze and he should have it done by next week
[09:15] <IlyaHaykinson_> ok, wonderful.
[09:16] <humphreybc> he's been busy doing the music store testing since he's in charge of all that for canonical
[09:16] <IlyaHaykinson_> understood.
[09:16] <humphreybc> jaminday: who's john hart? O.o
[09:16] <IlyaHaykinson_> just as long as we don't have to cut it at the end.
[09:16] <humphreybc> nope, he knows it's important
[09:16] <IlyaHaykinson_> rudi: i would say pick one of the things that we've mentioned, and go for it.
[09:16] <humphreybc> where has joe and kelvin gone?
[09:16] <humphreybc> the chapter 6 authors?
[09:17] <humphreybc> chapter 6 isn't too long, just by looking at it
[09:17] <humphreybc> i could probably power through that in a few hours
[09:17] <jaminday> humphreybc: I met with John Hart a couple times over chat to get him set up but had some issues, then he stopped replying to my emails
[09:17] <IlyaHaykinson_> there's enough work to go around -- writing, editing -- that you would be very helpful in any capacity
[09:17] <IlyaHaykinson_> chapter 6 is not too long, but then again i don't think it's been thought out yet
[09:17] <IlyaHaykinson_> just has a rough sketch of some must-haves in the TOC
[09:17] <humphreybc> yeah
[09:18] <humphreybc> okay, let's decide on a plan for chap 6
[09:18] <humphreybc> then i can do that tomorrow
[09:18] <jaminday> How about you both take a 'half' each (humphreybc and rudi)
[09:18] <humphreybc> yeah that could work
[09:19] <jaminday> ie one on updating and one on upgrading
[09:19] <humphreybc> rudi, what do you feel like doing? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/TableOfContents
[09:19] <humphreybc> there's updating or upgrading
[09:19] <rudi> i'll do updating?
[09:19] <IlyaHaykinson_> well, at the very least, to me, "System Maintenance" means app updates; distro upgrades; disk space cleanup; backup
[09:19] <IlyaHaykinson_> plus potentially user management
[09:19] <humphreybc> i think we have those covered except backup
[09:20] <humphreybc> and user management
[09:20] <humphreybc> which is pretty easy
[09:20] <IlyaHaykinson_> and disk space clean up
[09:20] <rudi> backup: is this using something like rsync? or is it ok to get the end user to install something like grsync?
[09:20] <humphreybc> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/chap6
[09:20] <humphreybc> team, GO!
[09:20] <jaminday> rudi: we are trying to stick with GUI in the first 6 chapters
[09:21] <jaminday> There are a number of GUI backup apps available but not sure what's in the default repos
[09:22] <jaminday> Perhaps grsync is the way to go but i've never tried it
[09:33] <rudi> jaminday, thanks for clearing that up
[09:34] <humphreybc> jamin, you sticking around?
[09:35] <jaminday> yep only for a couple of mins
[09:55] <jaminday> humphreybc: sorry had to head off for dinner. I'll try and make it back tonight otherwise should be around again in the next day or two. Have allocated another couple of days to work solely on editing so hopefully we will make some more progress.
[09:55] <jaminday> humphreybc: Also just email godbyk about our changes to chapter 6. Copied you into the email so you might have read it already.
[09:56] <jaminday> *emailed
[09:59] <ajuliano> hi, i would like to help out with the web development. What do i do?
[10:00] <TommyBrunn1> ajuliano: You could try to get the countdown-timer-thingy on http://ubuntu-manual.org to work in Internet Explorer.
[10:01] <TommyBrunn1> It's available in the main branch, in ubuntu-manual/website/countdown/
[10:04] <humphreybc> oO and ajuliano if you could insert http://ubuntu-manual.org/progressbar.png into the countdown timer thingy somewhere too that would be cool
[10:04] <humphreybc> do you know how to use bzr?
[10:04] <ajuliano> never done it before
[10:04] <humphreybc> ah
[10:04] <humphreybc> sudo apt-get install bzr
[10:04] <humphreybc> bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual
[10:04] <humphreybc> website stuff is under /website
[10:04] <ajuliano> ok thanks
[10:05] <humphreybc> there are currently two versions of the main website, the stuff in /website and the stuff in /website/wolter-remake
[10:05] <humphreybc> but the countdown stuff is /website/countdown
[10:05] <ajuliano> i'm on my mac right now. Is there another way of doing it? otherwise I will try it out later today
[10:06] <ajuliano> the progressbar looks cool, how does the update work?
[10:06] <humphreybc> ajuliano: i can send you the files
[10:07] <humphreybc> i just manually update the .psd for it hehe
[10:07] <humphreybc> then i put it in the branch
[10:07] <humphreybc> anything in /website/countdown goes on ubuntu-manual.org
[10:07] <humphreybc> anything in /website goes on http://test.ubuntu-manual.org
[10:07] <ajuliano> ok,
[10:07] <humphreybc> ajuliano: what's your email address? i can zip up the countdown stuff for you
[10:08] <humphreybc> how good are you at web development?
[10:08] <ajuliano> till.albert@gmail.com
[10:08] <humphreybc> groovy
[10:09] <ajuliano> I do it for a living.
[10:09] <ajuliano> Working with both Drupal and Wordpress
[10:10] <ajuliano> Can do a lot of stuffs with php/html/css
[10:10] <ajuliano> I am a mix of a designer and coder
[10:10] <humphreybc> Oo
[10:10] <humphreybc> you're my new favourite person
[10:11] <ajuliano> :9
[10:11] <ajuliano> :)
[10:11] <humphreybc> this is what i want our site to look like: http://humphreybc.wordpress.com/2010/03/01/more-website-mockups-new-get-involved-page/
[10:11] <humphreybc> (i did these mockups last weekend)
[10:11] <ajuliano> Gotta go now, heading for a meeting
[10:11] <humphreybc> okay, no probs
[10:11] <ajuliano> I will check out ur site
[10:11] <humphreybc> sweet as
[10:12] <ajuliano> and gonna take a look at the files later today or tomorrow
[10:12] <ajuliano> btw, i saw the mockups some days ago at OMG!, looks great!
[10:12] <ajuliano> bye!
[10:16] <humphreybc> okay well i'm going to watch a movie
[10:16] <humphreybc> anyone have anything they want me to do before i depart for the evening?
[12:17] <ubuntujenkins> TommyBrunn1 ping:
[12:17] <daker> hi
[12:17] <ubuntujenkins> hi daker
[12:20] <godbyk> I'm alive again.
[12:21] <ubuntujenkins> woo!
[12:23] <godbyk> Trying to rejoin my time zone. :)
[12:23] <ubuntujenkins> isn't it like 6 am for you?
[12:28] <godbyk> yeah.
[12:28] <godbyk> I went to sleep about 10 pm last night.
[12:28] <godbyk> was awesome.
[12:29] <godbyk> (I'm naturally a night owl.  My schedule was so messed up, I was going to sleep around 4 pm and waking up around 2 am.  That's not good.)
[12:29] <godbyk> I'm trying to reset it so I'm awake a bit more during the day.
[12:29] <godbyk> (Though I'm happy to wake up around 10 a.m.)
[12:31] <ubuntujenkins> I am so tired at the moment fell asleep in a law lecture
[12:33] <godbyk> oops. :)
[12:33] <godbyk> I'm reading irc backlogs, so I'll be posting responses to ancient questions for a couple minutes.  Feel free to ignore me.
[12:33] <godbyk> vish: There is no background, it's just white/transparent (#fff).
[12:34] <godbyk> vish: You can grab some compiled version of the manual from here, if you like: http://ubuntu-manual.org/builds/
[12:35] <godbyk> thorwil: No, I haven't written back to Charlene yet.  I was AFK yesterday.
[12:35] <godbyk> humphreybc: poing?
[12:35] <ubuntujenkins> bens in bed
[12:44] <godbyk> okay, I'm caught up now.
[12:44] <godbyk> ubuntujenkins: who let him go to sleep?!
[12:44] <ubuntujenkins> I don't know :P why would he ahve to sleep?
[12:45] <godbyk> sleep is a complete waste of time, imo.
[12:45] <daker> :o
[12:46] <thorwil> godbyk: what's the state of the internal layout?
[12:46] <godbyk> thorwil: abysmal?
[12:46] <godbyk> I'm going to be attacking it today -- just as soon as I'm done switching the test website around to point at wolter's.
[12:47] <godbyk> asciidoc? whatever happened to good old-fashioned html?
[12:47] <thorwil> godbyk: ok. slowly getting time to at least be sure about the margins
[12:47] <godbyk> thorwil: if you have specific complaints or suggestions, feel free to lay 'em on me and I'll add 'em to my list.
[12:47] <godbyk> yeah, margins are a big one.
[12:48] <godbyk> now that we have the fonts selected (well, for the Latin alphabet, at least), we can get the line-spacing set and figure out a good block size and whatnot.
[12:50] <thorwil> pdftex: define anchor at line 82: page.52
[12:51] <thorwil> [52]
[12:51] <thorwil> ! Misplaced alignment tab character &.
[12:51] <thorwil> l.89 ...uch as ``Office'', ``Games'', or ``Sound &
[12:51] <manualbot> thorwil: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
[12:51] <thorwil> manualbot: i know you are stupid an talking to you makes no sense
[12:51] <manualbot> thorwil: Error: "i" is not a valid command.
[12:51] <manualbot> thorwil: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
[12:51] <ubuntujenkins> silly bot did that to me yesterday
[12:52] <godbyk> thorwil: put a backslash in front of the ampersand: \&
[12:53] <godbyk> Also, if we're using American-style grammar and typography, the commas go inside the closing quotation marks:
[12:53] <godbyk> ``Office,'' ``Games,'' or ``Sound \& ...
[12:54] <thorwil> godbyk: avoid quotation marks by using italic?
[12:54] <godbyk> thorwil: Possibly, depending on the context.
[12:55] <godbyk> it may not need to be set off at all, for that matter.
[12:59] <thorwil> pushed
[12:59] <thorwil> and make is happy now
[13:00] <godbyk> good. :)
[13:00] <godbyk> the directory structure for wolter's site is weird.
[13:01] <thorwil> godbyk: he's using asciidoc to define content and structure?
[13:01] <godbyk> yeah.
[13:02] <godbyk> I have no idea if I uploaded all the right stuff.
[13:02] <godbyk> http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/
[13:02] <godbyk> clicking on pages/ shows the index page
[13:02] <godbyk> (it looks like I need to clean my glasses. :-))
[13:02] <thorwil> ARG!
[13:03] <godbyk> I'm trying to figure out if I did something wrong or if it's meant to look that way.
[13:05] <godbyk> aha!
[13:05] <godbyk> it doesn't look that way when I load the local copy.
[13:06] <godbyk> I didn't upload the etc dir.
[13:06] <godbyk> so the html pages will be an extra dir deeper, even.
[13:06] <godbyk> uploading now.
[13:08] <godbyk> http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/share/pages/
[13:12] <thorwil> copyright notice is broken
[13:13] <godbyk> on the web page?
[13:13] <daker> yep
[13:13] <daker> http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/share/pages/downloads.html
[13:13] <daker> see the footer
[13:14] <godbyk> daker: yeah, looks like the image is pushing it all down.
[13:14] <godbyk> the background box isn't expanding to encompass the image and footer text.
[13:14] <godbyk> oh, well, that's officially Someone Else's Problem (SEP). :)
[13:16] <godbyk> some fun (but super ugly) stats: http://ubuntu-manual.org/stats/
[13:17] <godbyk> I'll get a real stats program installed sometime.
[13:17] <godbyk> Top 5 traffic sources:
[13:17] <godbyk> omgubuntu.co.uk (referral) 763  25.85%
[13:17] <godbyk> (direct) ((none)) 648  21.95%
[13:17] <godbyk> planet.ubuntu.com (referral) 271  9.18%
[13:17] <godbyk> google.com (referral) 225  7.62%
[13:17] <godbyk> ubuntizandoelplaneta.com (referral) 131  4.44%
[13:18] <godbyk> okay, so back to latex stuff. :)
[13:21] <thorwil> godbyk: could you minimize the ......... in the toc?
[13:21] <thorwil> as in making the whole thing as narrow as the longest heading permits?
[13:21] <godbyk> hey, thorwil: is your cover page in bzr? can I swap that in to the PDFs?  (I know it's unfinished.)
[13:21] <godbyk> thorwil: you mean the table of contents?
[13:21] <TommyBrunn1> godbyj: What's the username and password for the statistics area?
[13:21] <thorwil> yes
[13:22] <godbyk> I'm going to remove the leaders entirely, I think.
[13:22] <godbyk> we'll have the numbers appear right after the chapter/section title.
[13:22] <godbyk> (i.e., ragged right)
[13:22] <godbyk> TommyBrunn1: ooh, good point. sorry. it may not be public.
[13:22] <godbyk> I did'nt think about that. oops!
[13:23] <godbyk> that's the crappy stats that my hosting company provides.
[13:23] <godbyk> when I get a real stats program installed, I'll make it public.
[13:23] <TommyBrunn1> Alright
[13:24] <thorwil> godbyk: just wanted to say that ragged is an option, too. if someone complains we can say Bringhurst does it, too ;)
[13:24] <godbyk> TommyBrunn1: When the site was first set up, we had 0 hits. The next day (1 March), we had 122 hits. On 2 March, we had 2830 hits.
[13:24] <godbyk> thorwil: Yeah, I prefer ragged.  I made it the default in the document class I use in LaTeX.
[13:24]  * thorwil 's record is something 22000 hits
[13:25] <godbyk> thorwil: I mean, it's not like you're trying to add up the page numbers in a column or something!
[13:25] <godbyk> thorwil: nice!
[13:25] <godbyk> I don't think my site comes close to that. I never write in my blog.
[13:25] <thorwil> godbyk: it was an exception, got myself on digg
[13:25] <godbyk> cool
[13:26] <godbyk> for what?
[13:26] <thorwil> godbyk: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2008/05/09/popup-scrollbar-concept-demo/
[13:26] <thorwil> somewhat outdated, as i tweaked the demo script later on
[13:30] <godbyk> thorwil: cool!
[13:30] <thorwil> godbyk: line spacing could be larger, but not much
[13:31] <daker> godbyk, there is an other bugg
[13:31] <daker> http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/share/pages/
[13:31] <daker> the Download button is getting 100% of the content page
[13:32] <godbyk> yeah, I noticed that, too.
[13:32] <daker> ah oki
[13:32] <godbyk> daker: Can you file bugs for these?
[13:32] <godbyk> Wolter's the one working on the site right now.
[13:32] <godbyk> I'm just hosting it.
[13:32] <daker> where ?
[13:33] <thorwil> godbyk: i see " " and “ ” in use on page ix
[13:33] <TommyBrunn1> daker: The button should be replaced with a prettier one. I set it all up in a previous version, but it seems Wolter broke it, took it out, or something.
[13:34] <daker> oki
[13:34] <godbyk> thorwil: *sigh* yeah, that's lots of little things like that we'll need to fix.
[13:34] <godbyk> we should compile a list for when the copyeditors get to it.
[13:35] <thorwil> godbyk: you really want to have the preliminary title page pdf in the repo?
[13:35] <godbyk> normally, I'd run a sed script through all the .tex files to fix a bunch of that stuff in one go, but that's cause lots of conflicts for people when they go to commit stuff they've been working on.
[13:36] <godbyk> thorwil: sure! I like it better than the lynx page (especially how it looks right now).
[13:36] <thorwil> godbyk: what path/name?
[13:37] <godbyk> thorwil: you can throw it in the titlepage/ dir.
[13:37] <godbyk> name it whatever you'd like.
[13:37] <godbyk> do you have just the A4 size or a letter size one too?
[13:37] <thorwil> just a4
[13:38] <godbyk> k
[13:41] <thorwil> titlepage/title_a4.pdf pushed
[13:41] <godbyk> I'm famished. I'm going to find something to eat.  Will be back soon.
[13:41] <godbyk> thorwil: awesome, thanks!
[13:42] <thorwil> np
[13:48] <ubuntujenkins> TommyBrunn1 last time I spoke to you about quickshot you said you were looking into how to take screenshots with python how is that going?
[13:49] <TommyBrunn1> ubuntujenkins: I haven't worked on Quickshot at all lately, as I haven't been feeling well (still isn't). However, I have found some information regarding taking screenshots. http://faq.pygtk.org/index.py?file=faq23.039.htp&req=edit & http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=2681009#post2681009
[13:50] <ubuntujenkins> ok thats cool I hope you feel better soon I will have a look at that stuff. thanks
[13:53] <godbyk> okay, I'm back.  Tasty cereal.
[14:21] <thorwil> godbyk: text figures for section header numbers don't do it for me. i think those should capital style figures or however you call them
[14:21] <godbyk> thorwil: in the chapter headings, you mean?  (the section headings are unnumbered)
[14:22] <thorwil> for example the 9 in front of Troubleshooting looks like it doesn't share the same baseline rather than being a text figure
[14:22] <godbyk> I was thinking about doing something more fun with the chapter numbers.. make them more prominent.. but I'm waiting to hear back on the chapter icons situation.
[14:22] <thorwil> oh right
[14:23] <godbyk> do you know what the status is of the chapter icons?
[14:23] <godbyk> are they a go or no-go?
[14:23] <thorwil> godbyk: still unsure
[14:23] <godbyk> fair enough.
[14:25] <godbyk> all the section titles are fairly short until you get to the troubleshooting chapter.
[14:26] <vish> thorwil: godbyk: where are the chapter icons supposed to be placed?
[14:26] <vish> i see place holders for screenshots , but nothing for icons
[14:26] <godbyk> vish: that hasn't been specified yet.
[14:26] <godbyk> depends on the icon design and stuff.
[14:26] <vish> hmm , well , we need to decide on where before the icon design ;)
[14:27] <godbyk> one thought I had was to have the icons be large watermarks that are placed in the top right of the chapter opening pages.
[14:27] <thorwil> vish: i think Ben once mentioned as watermarks. i think he really likes watermarks. and dropshadows
[14:27] <godbyk> vish: Are you doing the icon design?
[14:27] <vish> ;p
[14:27] <vish> godbyk: well , anything that thorwil has still left undone ;p
[14:27] <godbyk> thorwil: ?
[14:27] <godbyk> :)
[14:27] <vish> he hasnt done the icons :)
[14:28] <godbyk> okay.
[14:28] <godbyk> so you're it, then, vish! (you lucky guy!)
[14:28] <vish> ;)
[14:28] <godbyk> vish: have you seen thorwil's title page and the line art icons there?
[14:28] <godbyk> I was thinking just simple flat icons that we could watermark and put in the top right cover of the chapter opening page.
[14:29] <godbyk> they'd only be partially on the page and bleed to the edge.
[14:29] <godbyk> then I can superimpose large chapter numbers over them.
[14:29] <vish> godbyk: yup , i'v modified a bit too , we[ thorwil and i ] have been doing it off the ML
[14:29] <godbyk> lemme see if I can do a mockup or something real quick.
[14:29] <godbyk> (inkscape hates how many fonts I have installed and takes forever to load.)
[14:29] <thorwil> tell me more about that
[14:30] <godbyk> thorwil: more about what?
[14:30] <thorwil> godbyk: i meant, yeah, here too, stupid inkscape
[14:30] <godbyk> thorwil: ah! gotcha.
[14:31] <godbyk> it should at least show a splash screen if it's gonna take 5 minutes and let me know what it's doing.
[14:31] <thorwil> godbyk: we need not too silly concepts for the icons to make further thinking about them even worthwhile
[14:31] <godbyk> if humphreybc ever let's us finish the visual design (instead of waiting on ubuntu/canonical's phantom announcement), we can break up the title page into its graphical and text components and piece it back together again in latex.
[14:31] <thorwil> godbyk: what the heck to do for Troubleshooting, for example
[14:31] <godbyk> that way the translations happen automatically.
[14:32] <thorwil> coffee time, bbl
[14:32] <godbyk> thorwil: I hear ya. Hmm..
[14:32] <godbyk> k
[14:32] <godbyk> maybe troubleshooting is just the same as the 'help!'-style icons.
[14:32] <godbyk> question marks and the like.
[14:35] <Red_HamsterX> If it's worth anything, I associate "help" with "help me solve this" more than I associate "help" with "walk me through this".
[14:36] <Red_HamsterX> TommyBrunn1, ubuntujenkins, I should have time to whip up a take-picture-of-window library today and commit it to the tree. Any specific subdirectory in which you want it to be placed?
[14:37] <ubuntujenkins> the correct one as per python terms I personaly don't mind
[14:37] <ubuntujenkins> what does this libary do ?
[14:38] <Red_HamsterX> Just something to take screencaps, since that's what you were talking about earlier.
[14:38] <Red_HamsterX> Like a module with a couple of public functions.
[14:38] <ubuntujenkins> fair enough you know what you are on about
[15:07] <ubuntujenkins> Red_Hamster and kklimonda we have a problem with ssh keys and bzr branches, we were going to use a shortcut and call on the configuration functionality in goundcontrol, but this is currently broken due to launchpad. any thoughs on how we can do it? A major shortcut is to copy the users .ssh folder into the quickshot user.
[15:07] <BlessJah> kklimonda: ty tu?
[15:10] <kklimonda> BlessJah: that's why I hate offtopic on the #ubuntu-pl - too many channels too keep track of if people don't stay on topic.
[15:11] <kklimonda> ubuntujenkins: hmm.. we have to push ssh key to the launchpad so users can pull quickshot and then push changes? what exactly is broken right now? do you have a bug number?
[15:12] <BlessJah> kklimonda: that's why we've created -offtopic
[15:12] <ubuntujenkins> we need the user to be able to push stuff into the ubuntu-manaul-screenshots branches
[15:12] <ubuntujenkins> looking for the bug now
[15:13] <Red_HamsterX> ubuntujenkins, humphreybc was working on that last night.
[15:13] <Red_HamsterX> Do you have access to logs?
[15:13] <ubuntujenkins> I will look them up
[15:14] <Red_HamsterX> I noticed a potential snag in the strategy he proposed, but it didn't seem too hard to work around.
[15:14] <BlessJah> kklimonda: make ops to kick for offtop, they'll learn to use -offtopic channel
[15:14] <Red_HamsterX> I can paste the relevant lines if you need them.
[15:14] <Red_HamsterX> Via e-mail or something.
[15:14] <ubuntujenkins> Bug #527978 is what I was refering to kklimonda
[15:14] <manualbot> Launchpad bug 527978 in groundcontrol "Launchpad now using openid breaks login" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/527978
[15:15] <Red_HamsterX> My last night, not yours.
[15:15] <Red_HamsterX> ~10-11 hours ago.
[15:16] <kklimonda> BlessJah: you should know that it doesn't work like that on #-pl
[15:19] <ubuntujenkins> ok Red_HamsterX I am now up to date, what was the snag in bens stratergy?
[15:21] <Red_HamsterX> I'm pretty sure we'd need to share the private key with all committers, which isn't really much of a problem.
[15:21] <Red_HamsterX> Since we'd be trusting them to commit useful data anyway.
[15:21] <ubuntujenkins> and storing the password is insecure then
[15:21] <Red_HamsterX> Not necessarily the password... It could be a throwaway cert or other key.
[15:22] <Red_HamsterX> If it gets compromised, it could be fixed with a revoke, rollback, and broadcast to all legitimate contributers.
[15:23] <ubuntujenkins> from a chat nin #launchpad on how to add ssh keys to launchpad " if it's not in the api you'll either have to script a web browser "or do screen-scraping
[15:24] <ubuntujenkins> can we not assume the user has a launchpad account and ssh key and when the log back into their normal user get them to do the upload?
[15:25] <Red_HamsterX> Would that be easier or harder than, perhaps, setting up a public Subversion server and just letting them commit data at that, then export its state and commit it to bzr ourselves?
[15:28] <ubuntujenkins> mmm thats an idea godbyk you deal with server stuff any thoughts ^^^^^?
[15:29] <godbyk> ubuntujenkins: for the whole screenshot stuff:
[15:29] <Red_HamsterX> Setting up public svn is pretty easy, if we've got a server to handle it. I've got two, but I'd prefer to prove my worth before offering to host something like that.
[15:29] <godbyk> I think it'd be easier to just have a script on the server and the quickshot program uploads images to the server.
[15:29] <Red_HamsterX> Just 'cause trusting someone new to do something crucial always worries me.
[15:29] <godbyk> skip the bzr repositories and all that mess.
[15:29] <Red_HamsterX> A script on which server?
[15:30] <Red_HamsterX> Or something like scp?
[15:30] <godbyk> Red_HamsterX: Why not just use a php (python or whatever) script that runs on the ubuntu-manual.org web server?
[15:30] <godbyk> quickshot uploads the screenshots via http.
[15:30] <Red_HamsterX> Also, what about version control, in case someone tries to upload false images over real data?
[15:30] <Red_HamsterX> Oh, that could work...
[15:31] <godbyk> Red_HamsterX: the script could deal with that, I s'pose. But they shouldn't be taking a screenshot if it's already been taken, right?
[15:31] <Red_HamsterX> POST -> if file exists, copy old file to backup location; save new file?
[15:31] <godbyk> Red_HamsterX: exactly.
[15:31] <Red_HamsterX> Yeah, that would be pretty easy.
[15:31] <godbyk> then some moderator could choose the best screenshot to move to our bzr repository.
[15:31] <ubuntujenkins> we currently have no means of telling which screenshots are taken
[15:31] <Red_HamsterX> Actually, that's not true, ubuntujenkins.
[15:31] <godbyk> ubuntujenkins: well, quickshot can ask ubuntu-manual.org
[15:32] <Red_HamsterX> If we use a REST-based system like that, it can just query directory contents.
[15:32] <godbyk> it can download a small text file/database.
[15:32] <Red_HamsterX> Kinda like AJAX.
[15:32] <godbyk> Red_HamsterX: precisely.
[15:32] <ubuntujenkins> really wow this is way over my  head now I didn't think this was possible
[15:32] <Red_HamsterX> Quickshot starts, user chooses language/language is inferred, quickshot sends query string, server responds with directory listing.
[15:32] <godbyk> so instead of quickshot messing with launchpad, bzr, etc., etc., just use the web server.
[15:33] <ubuntujenkins> makes more sense can we make the server so that users can't remove images?
[15:33] <Red_HamsterX> Quickshot takes screenshot -> data is POSTed to server -> filesystem-based database is updated
[15:33] <Red_HamsterX> Yeah.
[15:33] <Red_HamsterX> Write-only logic.
[15:33] <Red_HamsterX> If a duplicate is uploaded, the old one gets moved to somebackup location.
[15:33] <ubuntujenkins> this saves us a tun of hassel
[15:33] <Red_HamsterX> Maybe its filename with mtime appended.
[15:34] <godbyk> Red_HamsterX: and the server-side script would handle naming the file with a unique name.
[15:34] <godbyk> quickshot just submits a form to the server with the screenshot, language, and whatever metadata.
[15:34] <Red_HamsterX> That makes more sense, actually.
[15:35] <Red_HamsterX> Always write something like program_name-timestamp.png
[15:35] <ubuntujenkins> I have a list of language codes that ubuntu its self uses
[15:35] <godbyk> and when you start the program, it asks the web server what screenshots are still needed for whatever language.
[15:35] <Red_HamsterX> And put them in directories based on language code.
[15:35] <Red_HamsterX> Or prefix all of that with language code.
[15:35] <godbyk> Red_HamsterX: or it could just give it a random garbage name and keep the metadata in a database.
[15:36] <Red_HamsterX> That would also make thumbnail-based filtering a quick process, to avoid having questionable material get past early scrutiny.
[15:36] <godbyk> when someone wants to move that png to the bzr repository, the web server can give it an appropriate filename on the fly.
[15:36] <Red_HamsterX> It'd probably be easiest to just rely on the filesystem and avoid complicating things with a database.
[15:36] <Red_HamsterX> Unless we need more meta-data than we can store in a filename.
[15:36] <godbyk> we need to have a way of creating 'hey, here's a new screenshot we need for the manual' stuff.
[15:37] <ubuntujenkins> language code chapter number
[15:37] <ubuntujenkins> all we need in each and maybe order which it occurs in
[15:37] <godbyk> ubuntujenkins: nah, we don't need that.
[15:37] <Red_HamsterX> Or do an scp/rsync from a committer's system and let them run a script that transforms their local copy into bzr-friendly filenames/directories.
[15:37] <godbyk> from the latex side, I'd do something like:
[15:38] <godbyk> \includegraphics{screenshots/LANG/short-description}
[15:38] <ubuntujenkins> I am happy to do the commits as quickshot is geting beond me
[15:38] <godbyk> and LANG will be filled in automatically so the translators never have to worry about that.
[15:38] <ubuntujenkins> right sounds good to me what ever works
[15:39] <godbyk> basically each screenshot should be independent of every other screenshot.
[15:39] <Red_HamsterX> Actually, ubuntujenkins, all you'd need to know to work with this system is a simple function like 'commit_screenshot(data)'.
[15:39] <godbyk> so no sequence numbers or any of that.
[15:39] <godbyk> 'cause we'll end up inserting a new screenshot at the last minute or something and then everything goes out the window.
[15:39] <Red_HamsterX> You shouldn't need to know anything about the webserver to script the Python stuff.
[15:39] <godbyk> from the quickshot end, it'll be just like submitting a web form.
[15:39] <Red_HamsterX> I can write that function pretty quickly as soon as godbyk creates the submit form, if we go with this.
[15:40] <ubuntujenkins> I can create the ui if someone tells me what boxes it needs to have
[15:40] <ubuntujenkins> asuming the ui is in quickshot windows
[15:40] <godbyk> shouldn't need any UI.
[15:41] <godbyk> well, if we're using quickshot for multiple projects, it'll need to know, say, a project url.
[15:41] <ubuntujenkins> this does seam the best option
[15:41] <Red_HamsterX> Nope. The webserver should just be an I/O box.
[15:41] <godbyk> where it can download the metadata for the project.
[15:41] <Red_HamsterX> With more I than O from Quickshot's persoective.
[15:41] <godbyk> the metadata would contain the upload script URL
[15:41] <Red_HamsterX> Data goes in, return code comes out.
[15:41] <godbyk> Red_HamsterX's got it.
[15:42] <ubuntujenkins> cool
[15:42] <Red_HamsterX> I do web development, Python development, and sysadmin stuff for something approximating a living, godbyk. :)
[15:43] <ubuntujenkins> nice :-) if we might get this finished
[15:44] <ubuntujenkins> godbyk does /menu work now?
[15:44] <ubuntujenkins> in laytex
[15:44] <godbyk> ubuntujenkins: \menu works, yeah.
[15:45] <ubuntujenkins> Thanks
[15:47] <godbyk> thorwil, vish: I emailed you guys some examples of what I was thinking for the icons thing.
[15:58] <ubuntujenkins> godbyk and Red_HamsterX can you please explain your thoughts to huphreybc when he is on next.
[15:59] <Red_HamsterX> Sure. It's pretty simple from an architectural point of view, though.
[15:59] <Red_HamsterX> Very easy to diagram.
[15:59] <Red_HamsterX> And simple means doable.
[15:59] <ubuntujenkins> cool thats what we like
[16:58] <thorwil> godbyk: kinda the wrong side of things for the numbers. icons could work, though i suspect some would be very susceptible to such treatment
[16:59] <godbyk> thorwil: fair enough.
[16:59] <godbyk> I figured since we reference the chapters by number, the numbers should perhaps be a bit more prominent.
[17:00] <godbyk> but I'm definitely open to ideas.
[17:00] <godbyk> (I don't know how best to incorporate the icons into the design, I guess.)
[17:15] <vish> hmm, why is the side wrong?
[17:15] <godbyk> vish: side?
[17:15] <vish> for the numbers
[17:15] <godbyk> ?
[17:16]  * godbyk is confused.
[17:16] <vish> godbyk: what thorwil said above
[17:16] <godbyk> ah
[17:16] <vish> i dont think it is wrong
[17:17] <thorwil> vish: chapter numbers tend to be in the front, not following the title
[17:18] <vish> thorwil: not necessarily , there are several books which keep the numbers on the right/left margin and the title on top
[17:18] <godbyk> vish: Maybe you could mock up a better sketch to illustrate?
[17:18] <godbyk> I fear my sketch sucked so bad that it's worthless. <grin>
[17:19] <vish> godbyk: yeah , i was just doing that Now :)  but just throwing in random variations ;)  thorwil would kick my ass if he sees it ;p
[17:58] <Red_HamsterX> Wow. quickly is not 2008-netbook-friendly, dependency-wise.
[17:59] <Red_HamsterX> ...cvs as a dependency? Weird.
[18:01] <Red_HamsterX> /dev/sda1             3.7G  3.5G   50M  99% /
[18:01] <Red_HamsterX> Nice.
[18:03] <godbyk> ouch
[18:05] <godbyk> Hey, vish.. forgot the attachments?
[18:05] <vish> aw crap!
[18:05] <godbyk> :)
[18:05] <godbyk> I'm glad I'm not the only one who does that!
[18:07] <Red_HamsterX> I can reposition some stuff under /home or on the always-present SD card if I get any lower. But, still, that thing has a lot of dependencies.
[18:08] <vish> godbyk: hehe , i usually have a word attached in the mail ,and evolution reminds me to attach , this time i forgot even the word attach ;p
[18:08] <vish> word "attached"
[18:21] <thorwil> vish, godbyk: i think the number shouldn't have more weight than the title
[18:21] <thorwil> so if it's larger, it should be toned down
[18:21] <godbyk> hold on, lemme open the svg.
[18:21] <godbyk> (it'll only be 20 minutes before inkscape loads. :))
[18:21]  * thorwil opened it in eog
[18:22] <vish> thorwil: ah , right , the size of the text/number is just there , i didnt know what the actual font size was
[18:23] <godbyk> if the number is larger, then yeah, it shouldn't be full black.. it'll be a dark grey.
[18:23] <vish> thorwil: we can just have the same size or slightly bigger title number
[18:23] <godbyk> that way the number and the text appears to be the same color.
[18:23] <godbyk> thorwil: Is that what you mean?
[18:23] <thorwil> yes
[18:23] <godbyk> 'kay. I agree with that bit, then.
[18:26]  * godbyk finally got it open in inkscape.
[18:26] <godbyk> We should probably avoid the rules and background colors for the chapter titles because we can't guarantee they'll fit on one line with all the translations.
[18:29] <thorwil> i'm all for keeping it simple, so we won't shoot our own feet
[18:29] <thorwil> vish: we will also have to face that canadian guy ;)
[18:30] <vish> ')
[18:30] <vish> ^thats me closing one eye ;p
[18:31] <thorwil> on irc, most people have no nose!!
[18:31] <vish> thorwil: safer to keep it tucked that to stick it out ;)
[18:31] <vish> than*
[18:39] <vish> thorwil: godbyk: we already draw a line under the title , right? thats why i tried the third variant , and just went on ;p
[18:40] <ubuntu> my fail. just lost almost a page of ubuntu-manual's first strings translated into pt.
[18:40] <danyR> :|
[18:43] <godbyk> vish: there aren't any lines being drawn anywhere yet, I don't think.
[18:46] <vish> godbyk: oh.. i think i got it mixed with the other pdf you sent
[18:46] <godbyk> ah, gotcha.
[18:51] <godbyk> Okay, I'm gonna head to a friend's house to hang out for a few hours.
[18:51] <godbyk> I'll holler when I return.
[19:06] <dutchie> did I miss anything important?
[19:07] <Red_HamsterX> Maybe.
[19:08] <Red_HamsterX> We've got a new plan for automatically collecting screenshots from Quickshot clients.
[19:09] <Red_HamsterX> It only affects the transfer process, though.
[19:12]  * dutchie is not as involved in QS as he should be
[19:15] <Red_HamsterX> I just got here yesterday.
[19:16] <dutchie> I've been here a while :)
[20:15] <thorwil> godbyk: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Brand
[20:15]  * dutchie suspects this may annoy godbyk somewhat
[20:20] <Red_HamsterX> From earth to light? Quite a shift.
[20:25] <sebsebseb> Hi
[20:34] <Red_HamsterX> Hi.
[20:44] <sebsebseb> Red_HamsterX: Hi
[21:40] <cmmtessier> Hello! Just sign up to give you hand. I can help with the editing. If someone could give some direction as  to what needs to be done, that would be great!! Thanks!
[21:41] <dutchie> jaminday: ^^
[21:43] <sebsebseb> dutchie: How's the manual coming along?
[21:56] <godbyk> I'm back now.
[22:03] <ubuntujenkins> evening all
[22:05] <dutchie> sebsebseb: well-ish I think
[22:05] <dutchie> lots still to do though
[22:18] <godbyk> dutchie: do you know if vish and thorwil saw the new brand stuff?
[22:18] <godbyk> er, thorwil did, I see. :)
[22:19] <ubuntujenkins> looks soo good can't wait to see it tomorrow
[22:21] <dutchie> godbyk: no idea
[22:21] <dutchie> looks cool though :)
[22:21] <godbyk> dutchie: is there a way I tell po4a or whatever to just not even add it to the list of things to be translated?
[22:21] <sebsebseb> dutchie: ok
[22:22] <Red_HamsterX> The PyGTK reference TommyBrunn linked to works fine, with a few minor catches. I'll start functionizing and optimizing it now.
[22:22] <dutchie> godbyk: possibly
[22:22] <Red_HamsterX> (For the actual screencapping)
[22:22] <dutchie> not something I'm going to start looking into at 22:22 though
[22:22] <godbyk> I've started adding "% TRANSLATORS: leave this line alone!" to a few things
[22:22] <godbyk> where they keep translating, say, \coverpage or \tableofcontents.
[22:22] <ubuntujenkins> sounds good Red_HamsterX
[22:22] <godbyk> dutchie: fair enough! :)
[22:22] <Red_HamsterX> You mean they're translating the LaTeX functions?
[22:23] <ubuntujenkins> which branch is it going in?
[22:23] <godbyk> Red_HamsterX: Occasionally, yeah.
[22:23] <Red_HamsterX> ubuntujenkins, I'm not sure how the branches are currently set up. My experience has, unfortunately, been with centralized VCSes. (Subversion, CVS)
[22:24] <Red_HamsterX> I need to break the highlight habit.
[22:24] <Red_HamsterX> This is a slow channel.
[22:25] <ubuntujenkins> I suggest it goes into main https://code.launchpad.net/~quickshotdevs/quickshot/quickshot don't worry about highlighting it draws my attention
[22:25] <Red_HamsterX> I was just going to merge things into the main branch, when stable, since I'm adding new modules, rather than reworking existing ones.
[22:26] <ubuntujenkins> I don't actually mind I am going to netten my stuff up when we finish the timer bit for it
[22:26] <Red_HamsterX> My typical approach is to always commit to main, unless working on something experimental or possibly damaging stable code.
[22:26] <Red_HamsterX> (From an SVN standpoint)
[22:27] <ubuntujenkins> fair enough my branch was only made when I started tinkering and as I don't knwo much python I didn't want to mess up main
[22:29] <dutchie> Red_HamsterX: tbh, we don't really use it in a very DVCS way
[22:31] <Red_HamsterX> dutchie, that suits me just fine. :)
[22:50] <godbyk> Well, it looks like the new Ubuntu font isn't ready for use yet.
[22:50] <godbyk> According to popey: "The new logo at the top of this article has a new typeface called ‘Ubuntu’ and whilst it’s nowhere near finished (last count I think they had about 15 characters done) it will eventually replace the old Ubuntu Title font."
[22:51] <ubuntujenkins> thats usefull what letters are there?
[22:51] <godbyk> He continues: "Canonical are looking to get community involvement in helping develop this font – which looks like it will become the default at some point. Clearly the first characters to be done were “ubnt” for Ubuntu and “CANOIL” for the Canonical logo – which borrows a person from the Ubuntu circle of friends and sticks her in the “O”."
[22:51] <popey> :)
[22:51] <godbyk> Hey, popey's here! :-)
[22:51] <popey> hullo
[22:52] <godbyk> popey: Is there a dev project for the font?
[22:52] <popey> there's a guy working on it
[22:52] <godbyk> heh.. I take it that's a 'no'? :)
[22:52] <popey> i believe they are going to get people in to help
[22:52] <popey> given there's a lot of characters yet to do
[22:53] <godbyk> gotcha