[00:07] <troy_s> bognarandras: There are now six panels.
[00:07] <troy_s> bognarandras: They were clipped off
[00:14] <bognarandras> :/
[01:55] <wers> what's the name of the package for the new "light" gtk theme? :)
[03:34] <LLStarks> what's the difference between a shaded checkbox and a checked checkbox?
[03:34] <LLStarks> i see this on the software sources and chmod dialogs.
[04:46] <persia> Anyone good at drawing diagrams and making .png and .pdf output have a few minutes to clean up a documentation bug about getting Ubuntu membership?
[04:46] <troy_s> LLStarks: Possible but not all.
[04:46] <troy_s> persia: Screenshot.
[04:47] <persia> Basically, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership references a .png and .pdf in the "Procedure for Obtaining Membership", which ought be replaced with ones that remove "MOTU Council" and originate all the stuff previously originated from "MOTU Council" to "Developer Membership Board" (and I'm bad enough with the tools that it will take me hours).
[04:49] <troy_s> persia: So s/MOTU Council/Developer Membership Board
[04:49] <troy_s> persia: That's it?
[04:50] <persia> troy_s: That's it: just combine the boxes.  MOTU Council looks like it's going away (two of the remaining three members have called for it to end), and DMB is doing that work now.
[04:50] <troy_s> persia: Damn you... now you confused me - 'combine'?
[04:51] <troy_s> persia: I see the MC box
[04:51] <troy_s> persia: But it goes away? I don't see a Dev membership board.
[04:52]  * persia reloads the .png
[04:53] <troy_s> persia: I can nuke it relatively quickly.
[04:53] <troy_s> persia: But combine, I'd need to know what to combine with.
[04:53] <troy_s> ;)
[04:53] <persia> OK.  LOoking at the PNG.  On the far right side, near the top, is "Ubuntu Developer Membership Board".
[04:54] <persia> "MOTU Council (MC)" appears to the left of that, and slightly below.
[04:54] <persia> Do you see both of those?
[04:59] <troy_s> Yes... looking
[04:59] <troy_s> persia: Sorry you got to ping me.
[04:59] <troy_s> persia: Otherwise I am usually busy doing window flipping.
[05:00] <troy_s> persia: Both in blue. See them both. What would you prefer sir?
[05:01] <persia> That all the arrows that come from MC are moved to DMB, and that the MC box goes away.
[05:01] <persia> Thanks a lot for fixing this :)
[05:06] <troy_s> persia: No problem. Working on it.
[05:06] <troy_s> All of MC and MC goes away totally persia, correcting now.
[05:08] <persia> troy_s: For the purposes of getting membership, yes.
[05:08] <persia> For this to change in the future, the MC would need to be essentially started from scratch, and be given new rights from the CC all over again (which is unlikely to happen for at least some time)
[05:37] <troy_s> persia http://imagebin.ca/view/ok1iE-2Y.html
[05:37] <troy_s> persia: That work?
[05:41] <troy_s> persia: Or do you require more directionality in the flows?
[05:41] <troy_s> persia: Which is an easy fix.
[05:55] <vish> troy_s: pfff... show off ;)
[05:55] <troy_s> vish: Bah... infographic
[06:07] <troy_s> persia: http://imagebin.ca/view/8fYclkUB.html
[06:07] <troy_s> persia: I will attach it to the wiki for you in both PNG and SVG formats. Deal?
[06:08] <persia> troy_s: That looks great.  Thanks!  Please do attach to the wiki.
[06:08] <troy_s> persia: There you go. Both are there.
[06:09] <persia> (not only correct, but much better than the old one)
[06:09] <troy_s> persia: It was a bit of a mess before, and considering the audience that likely wants to see it.
[06:09] <troy_s> persia: Hopefully that makes it a little clearer.
[06:09] <troy_s> persia: I'd include the map inline just for those that want to know.
[06:09] <troy_s> persia: As I imagine membership spans a pretty large number of people.
[06:10] <persia> Do you know how to do that?  I'm not that good with the wiki aside from text cahnges.
[06:10] <troy_s> persia: Let me scale a version too... hold.
[06:10] <persia> We're at 584 members today, but we've been up to 900 before, and I suspect there's another 500 that are currently thinking about applying.
[06:10] <troy_s> persia: Ugh wiki is getting hammered or something.
[06:11] <troy_s> persia: Wow... membership goes down???
[06:11] <vish> persia: does the MOTU lead to the core team?
[06:11] <troy_s> persia: Or are you talking strictly MOTU?
[06:11] <troy_s> vish: I think I may have bogged that.
[06:11] <troy_s> GRR
[06:12] <persia> troy_s: Membership.  Not everyone stays a member (they sometimes get distracted by other things).
[06:12] <troy_s> vish: Yep. Good spot. BOG.
[06:12] <persia> Core leads to MOTU though.
[06:12]  * persia double-checks
[06:13] <vish> yay , i found a mistake in troy_s' work.. damn its not in the art though :/
[06:13] <persia> Core Dev is a member of MOTU.  Both Core Dev and MOTU are members of Ubuntu Dev.  MOTU is a member of Universe Contributors
[06:13] <troy_s> vish: Oh god no. There are plenty of those too.
[06:14] <troy_s> vish: Believe me, when I say I can see crap it is largely because that is about all I am capable of.
[06:14] <vish> ;p
[06:14] <troy_s> persia: So MOTU can fork to the Ubuntu Development Team, not the Ubuntu Core Development Team.
[06:14] <troy_s> persia: I fixed it methinks.
[06:14] <troy_s> vish: Proof!
[06:14] <persia> troy_s: Right.
[06:15] <persia> troy_s: Well, not fork, but MOTU are implicitly members of Ubuntu Development Team.
[06:15] <persia> Core Developers are implicitly members of *both* MOTU and Ubuntu Development Team.
[06:15] <troy_s> http://imagebin.ca/view/3u7dM2Mu.html
[06:15] <troy_s> THAT is correct correct?
[06:16] <troy_s> Erk. That might need a back forth arrow then correct?
[06:16] <troy_s> persia: the original map needed some more attention then... technically core points to motu and dev team then?
[06:16] <troy_s> (wow, this is worse than parliment.)
[06:17] <troy_s> Craps...
[06:17] <troy_s> persia: So yes?
[06:17] <troy_s> Core points at DEV TEAM _and_ MOTU
[06:17] <troy_s> Correct?
[06:17] <vish> troy_s: need to add an arrow from core to motu , that should be it
[06:17] <persia> RIght.
[06:19] <troy_s> http://imagebin.ca/view/19oxYn.html
[06:19] <troy_s> Proof?
[06:19] <troy_s> vish: correct?
[06:19] <troy_s> Pretty funky monkey down there in MOTU ville. Lol.
[06:19] <vish> troy_s: seems good
[06:23] <persia> Yeah.  At some point we'll get the development teams sorted :)
[06:23] <persia> But there's a distinction that's being lost here.
[06:24] <persia> The "Ubuntu Members", "Kubuntu Members", "Ubuntu Universe Contributors", "Ubuntu Development Team", "Masters of the Universe", and "Ubuntu Core Development Team" are teams.
[06:25] <persia> "Kubuntu Council", "Edubuntu Council", "Developer Membership Board", and the regional boards are councils that approve teams.
[06:25] <vish> troy_s: the Ubuntu DM Board needs to have color too
[06:25] <persia> In the old diagram, the former set were ovals, and the latter set were rectangles.
[06:25] <troy_s> Balls.
[06:25] <troy_s> Ok hold.
[06:25] <persia> Ah, the red:/blue distinction.  That makes sense.
[06:25] <troy_s> I just noticed that as I am making them the Ubuntu aubergine now.
[06:32] <troy_s> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership
[06:32] <troy_s> That look right?
[06:33] <troy_s> persia / vish?
[06:33] <persia> It looks right to me.
[06:33] <troy_s> persia: Ok if there is a wiki admin freakout over the page changes, you can deal with it.
[06:33] <troy_s> LOL
[06:33] <troy_s> persia: Your cred trumps mine by a major margin.
[06:33] <persia> The only thing I might do differently is to make the entire team names red or blue, but that's not terribly important.
[06:34] <troy_s> persia: Ok hold...
[06:34] <troy_s> persia: So What teams?
[06:34] <persia> troy_s: Absolutely.  If you get any complaints, point them at me.
[06:34] <persia> All of them :)
[06:34] <troy_s> persia: Dev Team, Core Team, ???
[06:34] <troy_s> persia: No what set should be grouped?
[06:34] <troy_s> persia: You want what elements grouped?
[06:34] <persia> No.  The sets and elements are all correct.
[06:35] <troy_s> persia: But you want the Dev team to be different than say Core Development Team color?
[06:35] <persia> And the teams are well differentiated from councils/boards.
[06:35] <persia> No.
[06:35] <troy_s> persia: LOL. Ok I'll stop talking.
[06:35] <persia> For example, "Kubuntu Members" has one colour for "Kubuntu" and another for "Members".
[06:35] <persia> But like I said, it's very minor.
[06:35] <troy_s> persia: Ok so what ones would that apply to?
[06:35] <troy_s> persia: Kubuntu, Edubuntu, and???
[06:36] <persia> Every box :)
[06:36] <vish> persia: troy_s: the K/E/Ubuntu color could remain , but we can add a bit of color to the other MOTU/teams
[06:36] <troy_s> persia: Balls. Last time I checked there wasn't a standards guide for MOTU. None of them have palettes :)
[06:36] <persia> Every box represents a group in launchpad.  The lighter-grey groups have admin rights over the darker-gray groups.
[06:36] <persia> troy_s: Really don't worry about it.
[06:37] <persia> Oh, I did notice something (which makes it complicated).
[06:37] <troy_s> persia: So MOTU and CORE DEV has admins over Dev and Contrib?
[06:37] <troy_s> persia: Ok shoot.
[06:37] <persia> "Ubuntu Developer Membership Board" has admin over all four of "Ubuntu Universe Contributors", "Ubuntu Development team", "Masters of the Universe", and "Ubuntu Core Development Team".
[06:38] <persia> No, MOTU and CoreDev are members of UUC and UbuntuDev
[06:38] <persia> (as teams, so members in MOTU are implicit members of UUC, for example).
[06:38] <troy_s> persia: Herm... so you want to show admin rights by Dev Membership board over the four under it (in this case above)
[06:38] <persia> Please :)  And thanks for putting up with my inability to express myself.
[06:39] <troy_s> persia: It's ok... might require a little more thought though now adding the extra dimension... Those fricking arrows were uh... not good enuf.
[06:40] <troy_s> persia: So Ubuntu Developer membership board technically cascades into MOTU as well even though it only shows as going into Core Dev Team?
[06:40] <persia> Right.  This recently changed (in the past couple months).
[06:41] <persia> The DMB was given admin rights to MOTU and UUC (which were previously held by MOTU Council), and to Ubuntu-dev and Ubuntu-core-dev (which were previously held by the TB).
[06:41] <troy_s> persia: Ok, so apologies to not be too redundant - but DEV BOARD governs ALL FOUR under it. MOTU and CORE DEV govern only Contrib and Dev Team respectively?
[06:41] <persia> Almost.
[06:41] <troy_s> persia: ALMOST?
[06:41] <persia> DEV BOARD governs all four under it.
[06:41] <troy_s> Yes.
[06:41] <persia> MOTU and CORE DEV don't govern anything.
[06:42] <troy_s> persia: MOTU covers Contrib no?
[06:42] <persia> MOTU is a member of Contrib and Development TEam
[06:42] <troy_s> as does Core Dev over Dev team?
[06:42] <troy_s> Wow.
[06:42] <persia> CORE DEV is a member of MOTU and Development team
[06:42] <troy_s> Ok
[06:42] <persia> "Kubuntu Members", "Edubuntu Members", "Ubuntu Universe Contributors", "Ubuntu Development Team" are members of Ubuntu members.
[06:42] <troy_s> OK ... I think I got my head around it.
[06:43] <persia> The Regional boards are admins of Ubuntu Members.
[06:43] <wers> is the new theme up for download yet? :)
[06:43] <troy_s> What a mess. It's worse than a fricking government system in some strange third world nation.
[06:44] <troy_s> wers: Um... why?
[06:44] <persia> troy_s: Yeah.  Now that you've made me go through all the permutations, I think I'll try to get it sorted.
[06:44] <troy_s> wers: It really is the weakest link in all of the new identity work.
[06:44] <troy_s> persia: LOL
[06:44] <persia> All the many different development teams should just be members of *one* membership team.
[06:44] <wers> troy_s, i wanna try it
[06:45] <troy_s> persia: I am trying to visualize it as overlapping bits... arrows indicate flow which isn't quite right really.
[06:45] <troy_s> persia: I think I have a handle on it.
[06:45] <persia> wers: If you mean "adium-theme-ubuntu", the package just got past NEW in LP, and should show up on mirrors soon.  You can pull it straight from LP if you're in a hurry.
[06:45] <wers> persia, cool. is it the package for the "light" theme?
[06:46] <persia> I have no idea.  I just know it's a new theme.  I'm not in a hurry.
[06:46] <persia> I also know it will be installed by default (but I don't know if it will be selected by default)
[06:47] <wers> persia, oh. apparently, the theme depends on the adium-theme-ubuntu package
[06:48] <wers> i still don't know the package for the light theme, though...
[06:49] <persia> neither I.  I'm just guessing based on the metainformation in the ubuntu-artwork package.
[06:51] <wers> ooh. maybe
[06:51] <wers> persia, i think, you're right. http://packages.ubuntu.com/lucid/all/ubuntu-artwork
[06:52] <vish> wers: the adium theme is for empathy iirc
[06:53] <wers> vish, yep. and ubuntu-artwork depends on it. without adium-theme, we wont get the package with the "light" theme
[06:53] <persia> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/adium-theme-ubuntu is more interesting
[06:53] <persia> (packages.ubuntu.com is often out of date)
[06:54] <wers> persia, cool! installing now. let's see :D
[06:55] <wers> now installing ubuntu-artwork from lucid! high five persia !
[06:56] <wers> now, where's the new theme? hmm
[06:56] <vish> wers: hehe , no theme , just the logo ;p
[06:57] <wers> vish, aw. haha. where can i even see the logo?
[06:57] <vish> wers: the theme ,will be in a separate package , if it replaces human
[06:58] <vish> wers: /usr/share/icons/hicolor/48x48/apps/distributor-logo.png
[06:58] <wers> vish, okay... let's wait for the package then. it's probably going to be light-theme-ubuntu
[06:58] <wers> vish, yeah, but where will it show? gnome hides icons
[06:59] <wers> on menus, i mean
[06:59] <vish> wers: about ubuntu in the help
[06:59] <vish> rather in the documentation
[07:00] <troy_s> persia: I need to think on it. NOT an easy infographic to provide a solution for with the double back nature of the dev team in areas.
[07:00] <vish> the font there hasnt changed yet
[07:00] <wers> hasnt changed here..
[07:00] <vish> wers: the logo has
[07:01] <persia> troy_s: No worries.  Thanks a lot for digging into this.  I'll try to fix the dev team stuff, but it will take months to go through all the right approvals.
[07:01] <troy_s> persia: Lol. Fix it in the name of infographics. We don't want fish swimming upstream and downstream.
[07:01] <wers> i cant see it.. actually, even my distributor-logo hasnt changed. oh well
[07:03] <persia> troy_s: I'd just like something simple enough to fit in one's head :)  The intertwined nature now is just confusing and broken.
[07:03] <troy_s> persia: Yes... the overlaps are totally fine until you get into dev team , core dev, motu and contrib
[07:04] <troy_s> the double fork out of motu and core dev really ... make a mess of it.
[07:04] <persia> Yeah.  I have to think a bit about the right structure, but I think there's a way it *can* make sense.
[07:05] <persia> But that page doesn't even have "Ubuntu Desktop Developers", "Kubuntu Developers", "Mythbuntu Developers", "Ububntu Kernel Developers", or "Ubuntu CLI/Mono Developers", which only make things messier.
[07:06] <persia> So really, what is needed, is some sensible model that doesn't push far too much information at the user.
[07:06] <troy_s> Amen persia, amen.
[07:07]  * persia sends mail to various boards and groups responsible for the mess
[07:10] <persia> troy_s: Shall I revert the wiki change pending your deeper thought?
[07:10] <troy_s> persia: Well I think it works ok for now... we just need to figure out how the hell to get the additional information in there.
[07:10] <troy_s> persia: It's a hack.
[07:10] <persia> troy_s: There are still links to the *old* .png and .pdf files.  Do you want to remove those?
[07:11] <troy_s> persia: You could point to the new PNG and remove the PDF. It at least has updated info.
[07:11] <troy_s> persia: Generating a PDF isn't terribly difficult, but maybe we leave that until we have a better map.
[07:11] <persia> OK, and I think I'll try to hide the current map behind the graphics link until we fix it.
[07:12] <troy_s> persia: Sure.
[07:12]  * persia tries to make the wiki follow instructions
[07:48] <zniavre> i can't make tooltips as this new light theme (it uses new-tooltip-style ?)
[09:44] <thorwil> "Another point is that purple looks nice, but it is not a professional color at all. Sadly blues and grays are often considered more professional looking."--why do i even bother to check the forum?
[09:46] <knome> hehe
[10:38] <Cedric25> no new sound theme ?
[10:50] <MenZa> Any SVGs out for the new branding yet?
[11:29] <thorwil> MenZa: for all i know, no
[11:29] <MenZa> right
[11:30] <MenZa> I attempted to vectorise them in Inkscape, but I'm going to wait. The product wasn't as shibby as it should have been, even with a bit of tweaking.
[11:30] <thorwil> either it has to go on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Official, or that page has to be killed
[11:33] <zniavre> what is csd ?
[11:34] <sanderqd> if anyone sees ivanka majic, could you tell her the link to https://wiki.canonical.com/BrandRefresh/Announce is not public?
[11:34] <iainfarrell> hi sanderqd
[11:34] <iainfarrell> what was she trying to share is this on her blog?
[11:35] <sanderqd> iainfarrell: yes, http://www.ivankamajic.com/?p=271
[11:35] <iainfarrell> ahh I see
[11:35] <iainfarrell> will let her know
[11:35] <iainfarrell> thanks for the heads up
[11:35] <sanderqd> cool, thanks, also congrats on the release
[11:35] <iainfarrell> thanks :)
[11:36] <iainfarrell> we're all very excited
[11:36] <lasseguls> hi guys whats up. Someone has to fix the screenshots with the close minimize buttons on the wrong side, the internet is spazzing out.
[11:36] <lasseguls> gj btw
[11:36] <sanderqd> iainfarrell: would be cool to read more about the new branding's background, i hope to learn something fundamental about design in these open source communities ;-)
[11:37] <iainfarrell> well in the meantime if you have any questions ping them our way
[11:37] <iainfarrell> we will respond on blogs or IRC :)
[11:37] <sanderqd> will do, thanks
[11:37] <iainfarrell> Although it's artwork freeze today
[11:37] <zniavre> lasseguls,  :o)
[11:37] <iainfarrell> so we might not be quick to come back ;)
[11:38] <lasseguls> i am right that this is just kwwii's personal prefrences right?
[11:38] <zniavre> also mine i never seen kwwii desktop
[11:39] <iainfarrell> what do you mean?
[11:39] <lasseguls> the close minimize maximize buttons on the left hand side
[11:39] <zniavre> osx layout of metacity buttons
[11:39] <iainfarrell> That's what we're proposing, it's not the same as OSX though
[11:39] <zniavre> or non-windows layout ...
[11:39] <lasseguls> wow, its not osx layout
[11:40] <lasseguls> u are actually proposing that? i thought it was just kenneths desktop, i remember him having it like that
[11:40] <lasseguls> then im wondering, whats the thoughts behind that?
[11:40] <iainfarrell> we're genuinely proposing it, we feel it works
[11:40] <lucazade> and the bottom panel? just wondering?
[11:41] <iainfarrell> bottom panel is hidden rather than shown the whole time, with that we're thinking that it removes items that people may not use a lot of the time so it's there when they need it but not when they don't
[11:41] <lucazade> ok thanks
[11:41] <zniavre> if there is a revolution in this theme its funny it's just the buttons layout
[11:42] <lasseguls> i agree with that decision, smart
[11:42] <iainfarrell> these are all things that users can adjust if they don't like it - unlike many other OSes out there ;)
[11:42] <lucazade> yes of course
[11:42] <zniavre> that s true
[11:42] <thorwil> now i'm disappointed
[11:42] <lasseguls> iainfarrell: yeah but you still have a huge responsibility of making the default experienced as good as possible
[11:43] <iainfarrell> but we really think this adds and that's why we're including it
[11:43] <iainfarrell> we do
[11:43] <iainfarrell> and as good as possible for new users
[11:43] <iainfarrell> so we're trying to make it attractive and simplify the desktop a bit
[11:43] <lasseguls> but wont the button placement just confuse both windows, mac and ubutnu users?
[11:43] <iainfarrell> We don't think so but we are user testing so we'll find out
[11:44] <iainfarrell> it's clearly labeled though and a different colour so we think pretty obvious
[11:44] <zniavre> im using this layout since breezy
[11:44] <lasseguls> iainfarrell: cool. reddit, ubuntuforums, and digg doesnt seem to appriciate it though.
[11:44] <lasseguls> but why not the close button in the corner, like osx?
[11:45] <thorwil> lasseguls: folks at all those places never appreciate what they do not understand. saying this independent of whether this layout is good or not :)
[11:45] <zniavre> think different ...
[11:46] <lasseguls> thorwil: yeah, ive been around long enough to get that :)
[11:46] <iainfarrell> I don't know, I manage the team rather than work on all the designs and I wasn't sure to start with but I've not experienced any niggles and I like ti
[11:46] <darkmatter> close should be in a corner, or more precisely. the corner opposite the min/max. it prevents accidental closure of a window
[11:46] <thorwil> iainfarrell: are you doing any eye and/or pointer tracking?
[11:47] <darkmatter> it may involve more mouse travel, but it avoids accidents
[11:47] <lasseguls> like the web designers say, the sites the users mostly browse is: not yours. Dont give them something unexpected if you dont have a real good reason for doing that.
[11:48] <iainfarrell> it depends where we do the testing
[11:48] <iainfarrell> we have access to that setup
[11:48] <iainfarrell> but we'll be sharing research over time too
[11:48] <iainfarrell> we had the hackfest here last week
[11:48] <lasseguls> darkmatter brings up a good point. the standard placement is usually pretty alone, which prevents accidentally clicking min/max/close.
[11:48] <iainfarrell> and we'll be doing a bunch more testing like the empathy testing
[11:49] <lasseguls> empathy work <3
[11:49] <lasseguls> gj
[11:49] <iainfarrell> you think it needs a bit of love? ;)
[11:49] <thorwil> iainfarrell: some claim people would look on the left side more, or the cursor would be in that area more often. would be great to have data for all out to see
[11:49] <sanderqd> lasseguls: ubuntu is the 3rd most used desktop OS, it can has its own interaction standards, does not have to abide to the same principles as 'small web sites'
[11:49] <lasseguls> iainfarrell: no, i mean the user testing u did etc was great!
[11:50] <iainfarrell> oh I see
[11:50] <iainfarrell> cool
[11:50] <iainfarrell> glad you liked it
[11:50] <lasseguls> sanderqd: the point still stands, if you change something, be sure to have a reason why. this rule also applies to BIG websites like MS etc.
[11:51] <sanderqd> the web is one platform, the ubuntu desktop is another. but sure, i believe there are good reasons for these changes
[11:51] <lasseguls> sanderqd: i agree that its different. But i still wonder what that reason is.
[11:52] <thorwil> sanderqd: wen and desktop being separate platforms sure explains why some users double-click on web links ;)
[11:52] <thorwil> web and desktop, even
[11:52] <darkmatter> brand/marketing. ubuntu want's to feel less like elephant droppings
[11:53] <iainfarrell> the Ayatana mailing list is the place to pose those questions
[11:53] <sanderqd> lasseguls: thinking about it, it seems quite logical to have the X next to the window/app title (since that's what you close), and the max/minimize buttons more close to the window corner, like the resize handle is
[11:53] <thorwil> iainfarrell: i think by now nobody really knows what does and doesn't belong on the ayatana list
[11:54] <thorwil> i mean, the purpose and scope doesn't seem clear to me at all
[11:56] <thorwil> i vaguely recall that Mark proposed having a closed list, the noise settled down ...
[11:56] <iainfarrell> thorwil: I think questions about the new desktop should be exactly that place
[11:56] <iainfarrell> or come to blogs like Ivanka
[11:56] <iainfarrell> or find us on Twitter
[11:56] <iainfarrell> or here :)
[11:58] <andreasn> iainfarrell, does Ivanka do irc? I need to get hold of her
[11:58] <iainfarrell> yeah
[11:58] <thorwil> Ivanka is clever for staying out of here, i suppose
[11:58] <iainfarrell> like I said, we're a bit busy with the artwork freeze
[11:58] <andreasn> regarding a hackergotchi
[11:59] <iainfarrell> no, want to be signed in but this week has been very very busy :)
[11:59] <andreasn> I'll send her a e-mail
[11:59] <iainfarrell> :)
[12:00] <lasseguls> iainfarrell: but doesnt that mean that the decision of where to place the close min max buttons have to be done before the freeze?
[12:00] <lasseguls> hi andreasn long time no see.
[12:01] <andreasn> heya lasseguls! All well?
[12:01] <iainfarrell> yes but you can still discuss it
[12:01] <iainfarrell> I would imagine it would stay in given it's easy enough to change
[12:02] <lasseguls> iainfarrell: its a gconf key? gconf isnt for human beings ;)
[12:03] <iainfarrell> fair enough, although we still think that a lot of users will like it like this
[12:04] <sanderqd> it's also easy to write a small program that does the gconf change, there already seem to be tweakUI-like apps
[12:05] <lasseguls> yeah, im not saying that power users will have problems getting around it, they probably change themes anyway
[12:05] <sanderqd> non-power users probably don't even bother thinking about it
[12:06] <sanderqd> "oh, it's on the other side, that's new, ah well"
[12:06] <lasseguls> sanderqd: :P thats not my experience of regular users
[12:07] <lasseguls> "you are saying that internet is no longer a blue E? WTF has the world become!?"
[12:07] <lasseguls> but one point id like to make is that this is a pretty big change, and can be hard to go back on if it turns out it was a mistake
[12:08] <lasseguls> you cant change the placement of window controls every release.
[12:10] <darkmatter> [ x ]<Caption>[ _ ] [ ^ ] <-- that's what I meant by avoiding accidental closure
[12:12] <darkmatter> it sensible, it's been used for ages, and it's a *nix tradition
[12:13] <lasseguls> too bad i dont have a virtual machine here, i would like to test it a bit. but from looking at the screenshots i get the feeling that aesthetically it is unbalanced with the buttons on the left side.
[12:13] <sanderqd> lasseguls: it isn't available for testing yet anyway
[12:13] <lasseguls> and OSX is a different beast entirely when it comes to balance since they dont have the file edit etc. menu.
[12:14] <lasseguls> sanderqd: yeh, but u can still change the gconf ;)
[12:16] <sanderqd> lasseguls: ALT-F2, gconftool-2 -t str -s /apps/metacity/general/button_layout maximize,minimize,close:
[12:16] <sanderqd> to revert, gconftool-2 -t str -s /apps/metacity/general/button_layout menu:minimize,maximize,close
[12:16] <darkmatter> the only thing that really 'unbalances' it per se is the title should be more or less centered
[12:17] <lasseguls> sanderqd: thank you, but alt-f2 doesnt do anything in windows ^^
[12:17] <lasseguls> darkmatter: you are right, the upper left corner is really cluttered, maybe it would help with the window tile centered.
[12:18] <lasseguls> *title
[12:19] <darkmatter> overall the theme itself isn't bad. it's a nice refresh, but it could use a little refinement. one sec. I actually found a mockup based on the new metacity
[12:20] <lasseguls> the palette i really like.
[12:22] <darkmatter> this has nothing to do with button layouts nor my personally opinions on the theme itself, just regarding 'refinement': http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/062/f/a/Ubuntu_lucid_theme_improvement_by_Scnd101.png
[12:23] <lasseguls> that was quick
[12:23] <darkmatter> as if you look at the official state of the theme, the gradients in the button are + the lighting is kinda harsh/unfinished feeling
[12:24] <darkmatter> lasseguls: it's not mine. I just thought it was a nice 'update' to the overall look
[12:24] <lasseguls> darkmatter: i agree. this one is softer, yeat clearer.
[12:24] <lasseguls> *yet
[12:27] <lasseguls> that guy is good. lots of nice mockups
[12:27] <darkmatter> lasseguls: yeah. I'm not saying 'copy his work'. I'm just using it as a visual comparison as to how the official feels a bit harsh/rushed. like I said. overall its a decent theme. it just needs refining
[12:28] <Cedric25> no new sound theme ?
[12:31]  * darkmatter proposes a 451 CobraJet being throttled as the new login sound :O
[12:31] <lasseguls> just saw that the rounded corners look pixellated. i think ive seen lots of metacity-themes doing that correctly, among them homosapien
[12:57] <zniavre> wich is the panel icons theme in those new themes ?
[12:58] <lasseguls> zniavre: i would guess humanity?
[12:59] <zniavre> volume and messaging menu are not like that
[14:18] <dashua> http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/45183/screenshot_F7vM2t.png
[14:18] <dashua> Sexxy
[14:19] <Agafonov> Hi! Can you tell me what font is used in new ubuntu logo? I found Sone very similar but not exactly :(
[14:23] <persia> I believe it to be a special font, based on traffic in -motu from about 18 hous ago.
[14:25] <Agafonov> will it be free for use?
[14:25] <knome> it will have the same license as the current one
[14:25] <knome> it's not released yet
[14:26] <knome> and will not be released in th following days, at least completely, since it's not ready
[14:27] <Agafonov> can we contact our russian designers (if we found one) to contribute cyrillic support as soon as possible?
[14:27] <knome> Agafonov, you should be in touch with iainfarrell about that
[14:29] <Agafonov> iainfarrell: what can you say?
[14:30] <knome> bbl
[14:30] <iainfarrell> hi there
[14:30] <iainfarrell> sorry
[14:30] <iainfarrell> haven't been watching the conversation
[14:31] <thorwil> iainfarrell: question was about the logo font
[14:31] <Agafonov> iainfarrell: can we contact our russian designers (if we found one) to contribute cyrillic support to the new ubuntu font as soon as possible?
[14:32] <iainfarrell> we're actually developing cyrillic as part of the font development
[14:32] <iainfarrell> so it is coming
[14:32] <Agafonov> great!
[14:32] <iainfarrell> we'll have a full roman, greek and cyrillic by around October
[14:32] <Agafonov> :)
[14:33] <iainfarrell> watch this space :)_
[14:33] <thorwil> iainfarrell: buiding an entire font to match the logo-type seems odd to me, as i would think it should remain special. will there be a different weight, accompanying italic, narrow, etc.?
[14:35] <persia> iainfarrell: How about support for more complex characters (mostly east & south asian)?
[14:35] <iainfarrell> the idea with more complex characters and languages
[14:35] <iainfarrell> is that we will work with community designers/ young designers who are interested
[14:35] <iainfarrell> and try and get them to work with our design agency
[14:35] <persia> Makes sense.
[14:37] <islington> I see no mention of kubuntu on the wiki page?
[14:37] <iainfarrell> we're working with Jonathan Riddell and the Kubuntu council on updating the logo for them
[14:37] <iainfarrell> but we're encouraging them to retain their distintivness
[14:38] <iainfarrell> the themes for KDE are so different to ours
[14:38] <iainfarrell> and people choose a different window manager for a reason
[14:38] <iainfarrell> so we're not going to try and impose our vision on Xubuntu/ Kubuntu
[14:38] <iainfarrell> Edubuntu uses a lot of the main Ubuntu assets anyway so will remain largely the same
[14:39] <Agafonov> iainfarrell: so, you will prpbably deny help offers for cyrillic font part? Just looking for a way to speedup the process...
[14:40] <iainfarrell> Agafonov: thanks for the offer but for now as we're engaged with people and they're not set up to work with a community we'll probably wait
[14:40] <iainfarrell> it's a very expensive and lengthy process
[14:40] <iainfarrell> and to introduce extra people now
[14:40] <iainfarrell> would slow it down in the long term
[14:40] <iainfarrell> although I should stress
[14:40] <iainfarrell> we don't want to rush the font development
[14:41] <iainfarrell> we want a type face we can be proud of and love looking at for years to come
[14:41] <islington> thats good, personally I think kubuntu should develop a branding like opensuse did.
[14:42] <Agafonov> iainfarrell: anyway, thanks for information. we will wait for it ;)
[14:42] <iainfarrell> Agafonov: my pleasure
[14:45] <lasseguls> iainfarrell: whats the plan with the icons? From the screenshot, the icons are really the only part of the desktop that is orange. Is this the look you are going for, or just a remenant of the old?
[14:49] <knome> btw iainfarrell, sent you email earlier today. have you had a chance to read it?
[14:50] <islington> lol posted that to flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/47414073@N07/4405828245/in/pool-ubuntu-artwork
[14:50] <iainfarrell> hey knome I've not had a chance yet, I'll come back to you :)
[14:51] <iainfarrell> lasseguls: We're keeping the icons for now, keep an eye on the panel though ;)
[14:52] <lasseguls> iainfarrell: i wont look away
[14:52] <lasseguls> ever
[14:53] <iainfarrell> LOL
[14:53] <iainfarrell> knome: Thanks for the mail, I'll need to review with the guys and come back to you but it's artwork freeze day today
[14:53] <iainfarrell> so everyone's pretty stacked
[14:53] <iainfarrell> can I get back to you tomorrow?
[14:53] <knome> iainfarrell, sure
[14:54] <tgpraveen12> hello is the new light theme now available in lucid?
[14:55] <dashua> zniavre_, http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/45196/screenshot_Xqri99.png
[14:55] <dashua> Nice tooltips
[14:55] <knome> hey dashua :)
[14:56] <dashua> knome, Hey mate
[14:56] <dashua> Sup?
[14:56] <zniavre_> dashua,  wich tooltips are you using ? new-tooltip-stylr ?
[14:56] <zniavre_> style *
[14:56] <dashua> Yep
[14:57] <knome> working to get the new branding to xubuntu as well ;)
[14:57] <zniavre_> when i tried it it does not make a border
[14:57] <zniavre_> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/187396/tooltipstyle.png
[14:57] <dashua> Did you enable RGBA globally?
[14:57] <zniavre_> yes
[14:57] <dashua> In your gtkrc
[14:59] <dashua> http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/45197/screenshot_1_y5Wr11.png
[14:59] <dashua> Not sure
[15:00] <dashua> knome, Awesome
[15:00] <dashua> I think I'm done with the community-themes work.  Shearwater will be next.
[15:00] <knome> yay :)
[15:02] <zniavre_> dashua,  i do not understand why it does not follow bg/fg i want
[15:02] <zniavre_> old tooltips does
[15:06] <dashua> It takes your bg_color?
[15:08] <zniavre_> maybe
[15:09] <dashua> It appears so.
[15:13] <zniavre_> http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/5498/capture2eo.png
[15:13] <zniavre_> do you see it ? i asked for strange color but it does not follow this
[15:17] <zniavre_> http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/3989/capture1dj.png   > i still prefer this one
[15:52]  * snubby tips hat
[15:52] <snubby> sup ubuntu artworkers
[15:59] <knome> http://content.comicskingdom.net/Arctic/Arctic.20100304_small.gif
[15:59] <knome> reminds me of artists
[16:10] <toabctl> hi
[16:10] <knome> hello.
[16:10] <toabctl> does anybody know how to install the new light theme? i use lucid but there's no new theme in the repository (and sorry if i'm the 10000x person who ask this;))
[16:11] <knome> toabctl, i suppose you still have to wait a bit
[17:23] <dashua> zniavre,
[17:23] <dashua> I got it.
[17:23] <dashua> style "tooltips"
[17:23] <dashua> {
[17:23] <dashua> 	xthickness = 8
[17:23] <dashua>  	ythickness = 4
[17:23] <dashua>  
[17:23] <dashua> 	GtkWidget::new-tooltip-style = 1
[17:24] <dashua>  	bg[NORMAL] = @tooltip_bg_color
[17:24] <dashua>  	fg[NORMAL] = @tooltip_fg_color
[17:24] <dashua> }
[17:24] <knome> "oops" :)
[17:24] <dashua> Now it honors your tooltip color
[17:30] <dashua> http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/45228/screenshot_7IIAkv.png
[17:30] <dashua> Blur and all :)
[17:41] <zniavre> :o(
[17:41] <zniavre> something must goes wrong for me
[17:45] <vish> dashua: how did you set blur? i dont get blur here
[17:45] <dashua> Compiz
[17:46] <dashua> Add tooltips
[17:46] <vish> ;)
[17:46] <dashua> under name
[17:46] <vish> dashua: i thought it was in  murrine ;)
[17:47] <vish> dashua: you set it via the blur plugin right?
[17:48] <vish> hmm , the blur plugin craps out under KMS for me :(
[17:51] <zniavre> haaaaa ok
[17:53] <zniavre> dashua, can you set the border_color  ?
[17:55] <vish> zniavre: bg[SELECTED]
[17:56] <zniavre> ho yes !!
[17:56] <zniavre> strange it does not works on metacity right?
[17:57] <zniavre> on close/max/min buttons
[17:57] <vish> also in firefox
[17:57] <zniavre> haaaaaaaa
[17:57] <zniavre> ok
[17:57] <zniavre> thank you
[17:57] <zniavre> :o)
[17:58] <zniavre> dinner time see you later
[18:04] <dashua> zniavre, matacity no
[18:28] <zniavre> dashua,  sometime it's bit too transparent depent where it falls
[18:28] <zniavre> there is a way to set translucidy ?
[18:29] <dashua> Not unless you hack GTK, I don't think
[18:30] <zniavre> ok it's what i was thinking (as murrine rgba)
[18:42] <zniavre> ho i understand tooltips are much more transparent with rgba-ised applicatiob
[18:42] <zniavre> cation*
[18:47] <zniavre> http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/9851/screenshot4pq.png
[19:06] <thorwil> it has begun: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/LucidCountdownBanners
[19:06] <knome> thorwil, i'm anxiously waiting for your designs.
[19:07] <thorwil> knome: maybe i won't do one
[19:07] <knome> thorwil, woT? :)
[19:08] <thorwil> knome: it's sad nobody else ever goes beyond counting down (well, there was a calender as somewhat of an exception)
[19:09] <knome> mmh
[19:19] <vish>  *sigh*  Bug 532110
[20:55] <troy_s> thorwil: HILARIOUS
[20:55] <troy_s> thorwil: Someone posted a thing about audience on Marks blog
[20:55] <troy_s> thorwil: And guess what? It got removed.
[20:55] <thorwil> troy_s: what did that "thing" say?
[20:55] <troy_s> thorwil: It was a polite question. Can't remember exactly.
[20:56] <troy_s> thorwil: Pertaining to the ignorance factor... and poof.
[20:56] <troy_s> lol
[21:00] <thorwil> troy_s: "... to a design sprint, to test that the concept had the legs to work with the full range of ..."
[21:00] <troy_s> thorwil: ?
[21:00] <thorwil> troy_s: from monday to wednesday, it would clearly have been an option to find that it had no legs
[21:01] <troy_s> Well I applaud the fact that there is a willingness to at least try things.
[21:01] <thorwil> troy_s: "testing" under conditions that do not allow it to be found lacking
[21:01] <thorwil> i love that
[21:06] <thorwil> the dimensions concept ain't bad
[21:06] <troy_s> thorwil: The net sum effort, whatever the opinion, could be justifiably be called 'better' if you do a before and after comparison. I just worry a little that people have equated with the walking away from brown as being the lynch pin as to why Ubuntu was stinky.
[21:06] <thorwil> yeah
[21:06] <troy_s> thorwil: When, in truth, we don't exactly see much different landing where it counts - on the desktop. Is that a lens flare? Not quite. What exactly is that?
[21:06] <troy_s> lol
[21:07] <troy_s> thorwil: That's about my only sort of alarm issue - the core issues that led up to the culmination of what we saw before are similar.
[21:07] <troy_s> thorwil: I mean it is also grossly unfair to lump developer / user on a polarized scale (how many contributors are uptakers as well?)
[21:08] <troy_s> thorwil: Or for that matter, jamming all Enterprise under one roof. There has got to be a huge diverse breadth of enterprise there, no?
[21:08] <thorwil> troy_s: a single font for the logos and use in the interface?
[21:08] <troy_s> thorwil: Yeah that screams nightmare.
[21:08] <troy_s> lol
[21:09] <thorwil> troy_s: i was hoping it would a logo-type and a font that works well with it, but is not identical
[21:10] <thorwil> kwwii: ^
[21:10] <troy_s> thorwil: Inexperience? I mean it isn't like there is anyone around here that has built huge brands, but even a dimwit with a book knows that.
[21:11] <thorwil> troy_s: inexperience is ok. ignorance not
[21:11] <troy_s> thorwil: It's like suggesting that Apple smatter Chicago all over.
[21:11] <troy_s> thorwil: Which didn't happen.
[21:12] <thorwil> troy_s: have to go, cya!
[21:14] <kwwii> there is going to be a font family, not just a font: so one for the desktop, a related yet different one(s) for other uses
[21:14] <kwwii> naturally ;)
[21:14] <kwwii> hi psyke83
[21:14] <troy_s> kwwii: So Ubuntu Sans, Ubuntu Serif, Ubuntu Title Case etc?
[21:14] <kwwii> thanks for the tip ;)
[21:14] <psyke83> hey
[21:14] <kwwii> troy_s: right
[21:15] <kwwii> a Sans condensed for the desktop, etc
[21:15] <kwwii> sometime during the night there is an update and all the new artwork will be public
[21:16] <kwwii> today was alpha freeze
[21:16] <kwwii> so everyone can follow the development more closely, help us fix bugs and improve it
[21:16] <psyke83> nice
[21:16] <kwwii> oh, and the themes are named Ambiance and Radiance
[21:30] <troy_s> kwwii: Default chosen yet?
[21:31] <kwwii> troy_s: Ambiance (the one with the dark top is currently marks favorite)
[21:31] <troy_s> kwwii: Thank god.
[21:32] <troy_s> kwwii: *cough* windeco
[21:32] <troy_s> kwwii: The new logotype is pretty lovely.
[21:32] <kwwii> the curving of the N and A is simply amazing
[21:32] <troy_s> kwwii: If I had to pick one thing that is most impressive, its that type.
[21:33] <kwwii> naturally, the desktop font doesn't have much of that
[21:33] <troy_s> kwwii: No. Have you seen it?
[21:33] <kwwii> marcus and otto did that mainly....it is really great work
[21:33] <zniavre> /home/zniavre/.themes/Ambiance/gtk-2.0/gtkrc:438: error: invalid keyword `widget', expected valid keyword - e.g. `style'
[21:33] <troy_s> kwwii: Is it rationalist?
[21:33] <troy_s> kwwii: The CoF blob is a wart. But the face is pretty tight.
[21:33] <kwwii> zniavre: where did you get that package?
[21:33] <kwwii> zniavre: sounds like you are missing the gtk update needed to make everything work
[21:34] <zniavre> launchpad
[21:34] <kwwii> islington!
[21:34] <zniavre> ubuntu-mono-dark ?
[21:34] <kwwii> zniavre: you are quick ;)
[21:34] <zniavre> as wind
[21:34] <islington> hello kwwii
[21:35] <troy_s> kwwii: Is it rationalist?
[22:05] <sanderqd> kwwii: was the 'n' in ubuntu a last minute change? saw versions with a more standard 'n' just after release :-)
[22:07] <kwwii> sanderqd: the release has rounded stuff
[22:08] <sanderqd> yeah, it looks very neat and distinct now
[22:18] <zniavre> i got two error even with ubuntu-mono
[22:21] <zniavre> ho clearlooks too?
[22:22] <sanderqd> awesome, a new interface font being developed
[22:24] <zniavre> http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/5397/capture1q.png  combobox are buggy   (both of them)
[22:31] <islington> :/ I am going to have to recolor and tweak my lynxwall now that you guys just dropped brown.
[23:03] <zniavre> fully updated to ubuntu-artwork > try alt+f2 use popuplist it's unreadable
[23:16] <zniavre> you should add >  text[NORMAL]      = "#dfd8c8"  to menu items at line 212  no?
[23:19] <zniavre> line 438 is malformed (if malformed is english word)
[23:20] <zniavre> widget_class "*Notif*"	widget "*IdoEntryMenuItem*" style "wide"	style "panel"
[23:20] <zniavre> it must be at least two lines
[23:23] <zniavre> kwwii, i saw you solved line438 error but not the popuplist
[23:25] <kwwii> zniavre: yeah, I just figured out the extra widget problem
[23:26] <kwwii> copy/paste eror
[23:26] <kwwii> populist?
[23:26] <zniavre> did you try alt+f2 and then using the combobox list
[23:26] <kwwii> ouch
[23:27] <zniavre>  this solve the bug >  text[NORMAL]      = "#dfd8c8"  to menu items at line 212  no?
[23:27] <zniavre> at least it's corrected here now   :o)
[23:27] <kwwii> let me check
[23:27] <zniavre> i put this color to fit the colormap
[23:28] <zniavre> but free to you to put another one you feel better
[23:29] <kwwii> zniavre: thanks, that sounds right
[23:29] <kwwii> testing now
[23:30] <kwwii> zniavre: yepp, that works
[23:30] <kwwii> thanks!
[23:30] <zniavre> i do not hav OOo installed you must check menu with it
[23:31] <zniavre> open office *
[23:33] <zniavre> i was filing a bug report on light theme ,i thougt i could fix it quickly
[23:36] <kwwii> we are going to start OOo, firefox and skype with a different theme
[23:36] <zniavre> ho?
[23:37] <zniavre> too complicated to use this bicolore theme with Ooo and firefox ?
[23:37] <zniavre> (i never use skype)
[23:43] <zniavre> well nice theme even if i do not use it (i really like the panel icons ubuntu-mono)
[23:43] <zniavre> hav a good night
[23:48] <kwwii> sorry
[23:48] <kwwii> they all have problem with a mixed theme
[23:49] <kwwii> so in order to fix things we'll simply start them with another theme
[23:49] <zniavre> :o)
[23:49] <kwwii> probably Radiance
[23:49] <zniavre> i know cause my theme is "mixed"
[23:52] <zniavre> to fix OOo and firefox you ll loose somewhere else (radio/check buttons first and possibly more)
[23:53] <andreasn> kwwii, what's the widget that's causing issues in Firefox?
[23:53] <kwwii> zniavre: indeed
[23:53] <kwwii> andreasn: the hard-coded link color in the url drop-down
[23:54] <zniavre> menubar, bookmarks list
[23:54] <zniavre> url list not bookmarks thats real name sorry
[23:54] <andreasn> kwwii, ah, that one... I recall jimmac had that issue too. I wonder if there is a patch floating around somewhere in bugzilla
[23:54] <andreasn> or at least a bug
[23:55] <zniavre> or css stuff to theme ff