[01:43] <ScottL> oi, I just reread over last meeting's meetings and it would appear what we were supposed to do something about the Plymouth theme before the UIFreeze, March 4th, that would appear to be tomorrow
[01:43] <persia> Ideally, indeed.
[01:44] <ScottL> oh hi, persia :)
[01:44] <persia> If anyone has something that kinda almost works, I'm happy to push it in the next few hours.
[01:44] <persia> But I'm the *wrong* person to create a visual effect.
[02:01] <ScottL> yeah, i'm not a visual arts type of guy either usually, certainly not on command
[02:09] <ScottL> it appeared that we had the green light to have a dedicated forum at Ubuntu Forums...I wonder when that will officially happen?
[02:11] <persia> Given the way things usually work in Ubuntu: when someone gets around to it.
[02:12] <persia> Feel free to be that person :)
[02:17] <ScottL> are you suggesting that _I_ change the forum name?  I certainly don't have that authority or permission
[02:18] <persia> Well, you could get it, or figure out what needs doing, and have someone else who does implement your changse.
[02:19] <persia> Most stuff in Ubuntu is about permissions, not authority.  There are precious few folks who are granted authority: most folk are just granted permissions once they have demonstrated they can use them.
[02:19] <persia> And most stuff gets done because someone goes and makes sure it gets done, rather than because it's someone's "job" to do it.
[02:32] <ScottL> righty ho, I will follow this through then
[02:33] <ScottL> I can follow up with jussi01 , reply to the emails and contact someone on the forum - unless you have a more specific suggestion about who I should contact
[02:34] <persia> I'd probably try to catch one of the forums admins on IRC and ask them the best way to proceed, citing the decision authorising the change.
[02:34] <persia> My experience is that they would either just do it, or train me how (when working in other areas)
[03:59] <ScottL> persia, if you wanted to push some artwork you might select something from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/UserContributed
[04:00] <ScottL> #1, 4 and 5 under wallpapers looks good
[04:00] <persia> It needs to be integrated into a plymouth theme though, which I don't know how to do.
[04:01] <persia> But given the big announcement about Ubuntu interfaces changing, I suspect that if something got put together this weekend, we could get a freeze excepting citing the branding changes.
[04:02] <ScottL> heh ;P hopefully
[04:02] <ScottL> if I had thought about it I would have posting the forums and on a few mailing list a week ago or so
[04:03] <ScottL> maybe I'll read up on Plymouth during work tomorrow and Friday
[04:04] <ScottL> am I looking for an admin or council member for the ubuntu forums renaming?  I just realized I'd been trying to reach council members :(
[04:07] <persia> I don't know.  I usually hunt council members because I spend a lot of time in various councils and boards, so they all know me.  An admin is probably more directly useful :)
[04:07] <ScottL> i'm trying for admins now but I'm name dropping jdong and matthewk since they replied to the email
[04:08] <ScottL> i wonder if we might consider moving away from audacious and back to rhythmbox since the new ubuntu music store will be teathered to it
[04:08] <persia> "back" to rhythmbox?
[04:09] <persia> I don't think we ever intentionally used that by default, in part because it has an assumption of a static library.
[04:09] <ScottL> didn't ubuntu studio used to have rhythmbox?
[04:09] <ScottL> oh
[04:09] <persia> Audacious is a handy UI to preview output mp3s from a creative process (or that was the argument used previously)
[04:10] <persia> any of the "Music Manager" tools tend to be less ideal when you've got 8 revisions of the same song and are previewing MP3s to review which mastering and what compression options produce the best artifact for distribution.
[04:10] <persia> That said, they are all *way* better if you just want to listen to your music library :)
[04:11] <ScottL> eh, i didn't know that about audacious, i've always found it hard to read, click and use comapred to rhythmbox
[04:11] <ScottL> and i remembered that I d/l'd RB manually to rip some cds
[04:11] <persia> The key bit is that it doesn't have any concept of library.  It just reads one or more files from the HD.
[04:11] <ScottL> oh and jdong replied to me in #ubuntuforums and said he'll revive the trhead and apply the changes
[04:12] <persia> It has some library-like functions, but I don't think those are the ones that make it interesting as a studio tool.
[04:12] <persia> Cool!
[04:12] <persia> (note that I personally never master anything, rather just fiddle with soundscapes, so I may have a slightly skewed view of this class of tool use)
[04:13] <ScottL> maybe it's vain, or just silly neophyte thinking, but I think I might start writing some of the things I help accomplish in Ubuntu studio so I can remember these things
[04:13] <ScottL> like the ubuntu forums renaming
[04:13] <persia> Are you an Ubuntu Member yet?
[04:14] <ScottL> no, i haven't applied for a couple of reasons   a) it says that it's rare for someone with less than 6 months of continual work (I have probably less than 3)
[04:14] <ScottL> b) i'm not sure where to apply
[04:14] <persia> Then document *everything* you do on your wiki page.
[04:14] <ScottL> the wiki said for technical areas I should apply to MOTU council which just disbanded didn't it?
[04:14] <persia> Rather than considering it vanity, consider it building up a record of achievements for review by whichever board reviews your membership aplication.
[04:15] <persia> Which wiki page.  I'm supposed to fix that.
[04:15] <ScottL> okay, the fits into desires :)
[04:15] <ScottL> hold on
[04:16] <persia> MOTU Council hasn't disbanded yet, but I expect it to do so soon (two of the three current members have written recommending it disband)
[04:19] <ScottL> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership     see Procedure for Obtaining Membership, the last line in that heading
[04:20] <ScottL> which leads to   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers
[04:23] <persia> I know the latter page is fixed.
[04:23] <persia> But I'll get rid of the reference to "MOTU Council" on the former page.
[04:25] <persia> ScottL: Does that look better?  Did I miss anything?
[04:30] <ScottL> oh, i'm glad you said the page had been fixed because I was feeling guilty as I couldn't find the references that I thought I remembered :/
[04:31] <ScottL> i'll take a look later tonight or early tomorrow morning, trying to get son to go to bed
[04:31] <persia> I've been rewriting that page about once a month based on various actions assigned to me in TB and DMB meetings since December.
[04:31] <persia> I'm hoping it can stay static for the next six months at least.
[04:45] <persia> Ugh.  There's another bug on that page.
[12:13] <ScottL> persia, both pages look good now (as far as I can tell)
[12:13] <persia> Cool.
[12:13] <ScottL> I even found a few other pages now linked to those two pages for the process and they look good as well
[12:14] <persia> There's still some work to do on the graphic, and I'm waiting for feedback from the Community Council to sort out some confusion, but that it looks good to you means that I've made a good start.
[12:14] <ScottL> I bookmarked those for future reference for myself to apply for membership
[12:15] <ScottL> I noticed that there used to be two graphics and now there is one - that is a good editorial decision IMO
[12:16] <ScottL> persia, in your estimation, should I really wait until I've contributed six months to apply for membership or do you think I might be able to shave off some time and apply earlier
[12:17] <persia> Speaking just for myself, I'll consider a candiadte at about 3 months if they are very active and highly spoken of by others, but I prefer six.
[12:18] <ScottL> cool...it's not a pressing concern or even an end objective, but I _really_ like to be organized and have a plan so I can work towards success
[12:18] <ScottL> so, i'll start updating my wiki with accomplishments and in a few months have a go at it then
[12:19] <persia> Sounds like a plan.
[12:24] <ScottL> persia, speaking of plans, tentatively I plan on updating the ubuntu studio fresh installation - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Ubuntu%20Studio%20Fresh%20Install
[12:24] <ScottL> and installed applications list - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Ubuntu%20Studio%20Fresh%20Install
[12:24] <ScottL> errrr. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/Applications
[12:24] <ScottL> for the next month (approx.) and then I'll be getting back to the zynjacku package
[12:25] <ScottL> i didn't want to wait too long before getting back to zynjacku in REVU but the installation page was never really finished and lucid is significantly different that these pages really should be addressed
[12:26] <ScottL> grubs adds a few extra (and unintuitive IMO) steps to the installation and we've added and updated several (yay!) packages for lucid
[12:32] <ScottL> s/grubs/grub2
[12:35] <persia> ScottL: Thanks!  All that would be very helpful.
[12:36] <persia> You might want to wait until this weekend though, as UI Freeze hasn't come into effect yet.
[12:36] <persia> Or at least wait for the screenshots :)
[12:38] <ScottL> I was planning on getting to the applications list first as it is the most straight forward, so I shouldn't start the installation update until next weekend 
[12:43] <persia> makes sense.  If you encounter some change you need in the applications list whilst you're working on it, say so.
[12:44] <persia> You know about the manifest files, right?
[12:51] <ScottL> i know nothing about the manifest files
[12:52] <ScottL> generally I just look through the menu to find out which application is installed then use ubuntu packages website to see which version is in lucid if it isn't clear when running the app
[12:56] <ScottL> persia, I am leaving to take son to care and go to work but I would like to continue this discussion at work, if you would be so kind as to not respond until I log on at work I would be grateful
[12:56] <ScottL> this way I don't have to wait until I get home to read and understand -   it should be just over an hour until I log in again
[13:02] <persia> No problem :)
[14:17] <ScottL_> persia: I am now logged in at work :)
[14:18] <ScottL_> also, tomorrow is the release meeting and I am planning to keep one eye on it
[14:19]  * persia digs up the URL
[14:20] <persia> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/daily/current/lucid-alternate-i386.list
[14:20] <persia> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/daily/current/lucid-alternate-amd64.list
[14:20] <persia> Shows the list of stuff on the CD for each architecture.
[14:21] <persia> Not all of it is particularly exciting, but those are comprehensive lists (which other lists may not be)
[14:21] <ScottL_> apparently it's _everything_ on the cd LOL
[14:21] <persia> Indeed it is, and it's so much that it doesn't even fit on a CD.
[14:21] <ScottL_> doh, yeah...DVD
[14:23] <persia> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.lucid may contain more palatable information, but less complete
[15:01] <ScottL_> persia: when you mentioned the Audaucious UI before, which UI is it and what inferred that it would be helpful to determining differentiating between versions of songs, how would it do that?
[15:02] <ScottL_> i tried a google search for audacious on the dev mailing list but am coming up dry
[15:02] <persia> What makes it useful for that is not any nifty UI feature, but that it lets you open arbitrary files in directories, rather than trying to manage a library (or did last time I used it: my keyboard is currently covered in bags and boxes of other sorts of electronic gear)
[15:03] <persia> Just install and run it.  If you don't think it's useful, don't mention it.  If it grew a library feature then it doesn't even help for the use cases I thought it did.
[15:04] <ScottL_> oh, okay...that ties in with your comment about a static library....you don't import it in and it's in your "library", you have option of opening a file by browsing to it
[15:05] <persia> Right, so if you have a bunch of temporary stuff because you're creating it, or because you're auditing stuff for your label, etc. you don't need to import, play, delete: simplified workflow.
[15:06] <ScottL_> audacious was rather unstable for me under hardy and couple rip cds with it, so I installed and stuck with rhythmbox
[15:06] <persia> This isn't actually an interesting feature for people who just want to listen to music, but they can use Rhythmbox or Banshee or something.
[15:06] <ScottL_> audacious2 is more stable and i've used it a bit, but I'll spend some more time with it....and yes, one of my criticisms of rhythmbox is that I couldn't open a file to play
[15:07] <ScottL_> s/couple/couldn't
[15:07] <persia> Which is fine *except* when you want to check if the latest master is suitable to send to a client :)
[15:36] <ScottL_> persia: I know that I bug you often asking questions and I wanted you to know that I always appreciate the time you take to answer them :)
[15:37] <persia> No worries.  If I'm too busy to answer, or doing something else that occupies my attention, you'll just have to wait a while.
[15:37] <persia> And maybe someone else will answer first.
[18:50] <ScottL_> troy_s: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=408OfAJu3Y8   that freaking rocked dude!   that was bloody brilliant IMO
[18:50] <troy_s> hrm...
[18:50] <troy_s> ScottL_: Hey thanks for that.
[18:51] <ScottL_> troy_s: richard's blog you linked had that linked in it - blows the crap out of all the other progress bars I've seen lately
[18:52] <troy_s> ScottL_: It's just... different. Not an end unto itself really. The more I learn the less I know.
[18:52] <troy_s> ScottL_: It must be nice having a bunch of people with all of these clear ideas around though. Rights and wrongs / yes and nos.
[18:53] <ScottL_> troy_s:   but it's certainly not in lock step with all the other conventional approaches, that was refreshing and inspired IMO
[18:54] <troy_s> ScottL_: That was the point of it. It seems we are all guilty of being lazy - me included. "How do you show progress? Progress bar of course!"
[18:54] <ScottL_> troy_s: and it's linear of course...that's progress
[18:54] <troy_s> ScottL_: Sort of stifling lazy. For example, radio boxes were sort of 'yeah that's it' end point. Now look at say the iPhone and you see a slide toggle.
[18:54] <ScottL_> you move from this point to the next
[18:55] <troy_s> ScottL_: Othering! There has been research on language and it's relationship to thought. Which of course impacts visual language. Mandarin speakers see time vertically equally as much as horizontally.
[18:55] <troy_s> ScottL_: It's just a huge challenge to reach out as we do worldwide and avoid the issue of context. While doing that, maybe we can come up with creative re-envisions.
[18:56] <troy_s> ScottL_: It just isn't on the table. And when it has been brought up the inevitable "Well does microsoft or apple do it?"
[18:56] <troy_s> ScottL_: Sad.
[18:58] <troy_s> ScottL_: So while we dicker around following old dogs with no tricks develop default looks for GNOME3
[18:58] <ScottL_> troy_s: heh, yeah, so far i'm not looking forward to gnome3
[18:58] <troy_s> ScottL_: Even companies like Microsoft are moving.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_WPdg6zUeE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0-pxBZBvlM 
[18:58] <troy_s> ScottL_: The theme alone is atrocious
[18:59] <troy_s> ScottL_: Enough with the untrained and unqualified buffoonery.
[18:59] <troy_s> ScottL_: Look at that Zune HD demo
[18:59] <troy_s> ScottL_Brilliant fricking typographic work, innovative solutions to audience needs, etc.
[19:00] <troy_s> ScottL_: Have you seen that before? 
[19:02] <troy_s> ScottL_: Now ask yourself how open our culture would be if someone stood up and said "We should do some typographic work - like not show the whole title."
[19:02] <troy_s> ScottL_: The blind usability idiots would be up in arms.
[19:02] <ScottL_> troy_s: no, i haven't seen either of them - the first one is amazing, i like how the select option/text is moved up and barely still visible
[19:03] <troy_s> ScottL_: Bingo. Bloody brilliant typographic work. Chic as hell.
[19:03] <ScottL_> apparently zune is the next iphone
[19:04] <ScottL_> troy_s: and why do phones have to slid just left and right, why not up and down, hell, why not diagonally?
[19:04] <troy_s> ScottL_: If you have used one with inertial browsing etc, the question that is begged is "Why the hell don't our desktops do this?"
[19:05] <troy_s> ScottL_: Why _not_ a parallax desktop?
[19:06] <ScottL_> troy_s:  man, that's inspiring and i'm not even a visual graphics type of guy (more like pragmatic and utilitarian type of guy)
[19:06] <troy_s> ScottL_: Actually
[19:06] <ScottL_> troy_s:  yeah, good questions about our desktops not doing something
[19:06] <troy_s> ScottL_: There are two solid pieces of research that suggest that in fact all the usability peddled rubbish in the world is trumped by aesthetics.
[19:07] <troy_s> ScottL_: It is referred to as the aesthetic usability effect. Systems that aren't inherently 'usable' (wtf that means) are accepted as such when they provide the audience with aesthetic experience.
[19:07] <troy_s> ScottL_: A volkswagen is the same as a ferrari when you are in the street
[19:07] <persia> People just kinda like pretty shiny stuff.
[19:08] <troy_s> persia: It's deeper than that.
[19:08] <ScottL_> troy_s: lol @ "wtf that means"
[19:08] <troy_s> persia: A shovel is a shovel. An expert level shovel is different, and within that, a shovel has limited scope of application unless you work with it 24/7.
[19:08] <persia> troy_s: No it isn't.  "people just kinda like pretty shiny stuff" is just another way of saying it.
[19:08] <troy_s> persia: When the tool is something far more nebulous and much far reaching, you can't really avoid the issue of aesthetic / presences / emotional experience.
[19:09] <persia> I could say "Humans have a natural prediliction for the aesthetically pleasing, and will prefer such experiences over those that may be easier but less satisfying".
[19:09] <persia> It's the same thing.
[19:09] <troy_s> persia: I agree. It is just that it sort of trivializes it. Which is what we do in Libre.
[19:09] <troy_s> persia: It isn't trivial. It's real. Not a side effect, but centre stage.
[19:09] <persia> Sorry.  Didn't mean to trivialise.
[19:09] <persia> Absolutely.
[19:09] <persia> We're all corbies at heart.
[19:10] <troy_s> persia: Not offended at all. You are a damn bright guy, but we are _all_ guilty of ignoring it in Libre.
[19:10] <troy_s> persia: We _all_ turn a blind eye to just how important it is. Worse, we don't care how to get there it seems.
[19:10] <ScottL_> "corbies"   what is that?
[19:11] <persia> ScottL_: It's a class of bird.  Includes crows, Ravens, Mockingbirds, etc.
[19:11] <persia> They are tool and language using, but often dismissed because they prefer glittering foil to food, etc.
[19:12] <troy_s> persia: I don't know. Is it pure 'gather the shiny thing' or is it about emotion and experience?
[19:12] <persia> Most of the larger-brained species can speak human languages with appropriate surgery.
[19:12] <troy_s> persia: Tough question granted.
[19:12] <persia> troy_s: I think it's entirely emotional, and I think that the shiny evokes emotions.
[19:12] <troy_s> persia: Do people want to browse data or have an experience? Go to Jacob Neilsen's site to see what you prefer. Lol.
[19:12] <persia> The experience is just the combination of emotional and intellectual satisfaction.
[19:13] <troy_s> persia: You mean "shiny" I assume? As in 'whatever is contextually desireable for a given group'.
[19:13] <persia> I want data, because I use that to develop my experience.  I expect most people like to play simpler games.
[19:14] <persia> troy_s: By "shiny" I mean that which attracts attention over other things, and when used not only draws our own attention, but the attention of others.
[19:14] <persia> We are social creatures, and performing actions that cause others to ask "What's that?" makes us feel good.
[19:15] <troy_s> You guys ought to blog about those things.
[19:15] <troy_s> Bring them to the forefront of attention instead of letting us get pelted to death with the trivial tripe.
[19:17] <persia> I don't blog.  I just chatter on IRC.
[19:18] <troy_s> persia: As I said, you should blog about that.
[19:19] <persia> I find that I think best interactively.
[19:19] <persia> As part of a corporate entity, I am very effective.
[19:19] <troy_s> persia: Problem is that it floats off in a puff of smoke.
[19:19] <persia> Attempting to do things without the interplay of co-minds doesn't work as well.
[19:19] <troy_s> persia: Blogging creates breadcrumbs that allow for ideas to take over time.
[19:19] <troy_s> persia: Agree with you.
[19:19] <troy_s> persia: But take this post for example:
[19:20] <persia> Actually, a surprising amount doesn't.  Lots of folks with whom I discuss things are better than I at expressing things in other fora, and share the ideas.
[19:21] <troy_s> persia: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2006-February/msg00174.html
[19:21] <troy_s> persia: Almost five years ago. Has _huge_ resonance right now.
[19:21] <troy_s> persia: And we still can't deal with what Havoc said - someone that has been there and done that far more than 99% of the people idling around at the moment.
[19:22] <troy_s> persia: That is a bloody brilliant posting. Cuts to the chase of about 99.9% of the _core_ of the problems that challenge us in Free Software.
[19:24] <ScottL_> troy_s:  along with the post do you have any books or blogs you can recommend about your visual graphic and design?
[19:25] <troy_s> persia: I'd liken it to chess. I don't know if you have played it or studied it, but at some point in your chess you learn that you need to UNLEARN the very things that gave you some degree of success. You need to force yourself to _not_ do what gave you the wins before. You often lose for the first while, but if you fail to unlearn the foolish background, you keep ramming into the ceiling of your current methodology.
[19:25] <troy_s> ScottL_: Oh god. I have started to put my books up on Google for that very question. Blogs shift. I love Juxtapose.
[19:25] <jussi01> ScottL_: thanks for that email, I had forgotten to follow up
[19:26] <ScottL_> troy_s: if you were to suggest one or two of your books, can you point those out?
[19:26] <troy_s> ScottL_ I have about 40% of my books up http://books.google.ca/books?op=library
[19:26] <troy_s> ScottL_: I have a soft spot for book. 
[19:26] <ScottL_> jussi01: no problem, persia proded me actually
[19:26] <ScottL_> troy_s: i prefer books for serious things, i always go back to reread and learn/understand more each time I do
[19:27] <troy_s> ScottL_:  It really depends on what you want out of them. My personal gut belief is that you start as many a bright mind has suggested - start with 'where does it come from'. That means history. As dull as that sounds.
[19:27] <persia> ScottL_: No, you prodded yourself.  I just pointed out that you had when you said "someone should do this".
[19:27] <persia> troy_s: I think of it more like an art project, or a game.  It's hard to make it work if you have lots of folks and easier if you have fewer.  If you're really good, you can create something that causes the audience to create the experience.
[19:28] <troy_s> ScottL_: Art and design is language. So it helps to know what the language is, who created certain words and conventions, etc. So the Thames and Hudsons do a great glossing of art from early art to Westernized focus.
[19:28] <ScottL_> crap, I just remembered I was suppossed to be reading up on the Plymouth theme today :(
[19:29] <troy_s> persia: Maybe. But that isn't borne out by research. In game theory studies while we would like to THINK that we innovate, what ends up being shown in research is that we apparently have a predisposition to simply take what the successful have done and repeat it. (Great example would be Survivor on TV. lol)
[19:29] <persia> troy_s: I mean game design, not gameplay
[19:29] <troy_s> persia: So the idea of getting to the place where people create the experience means we have to prove it effectively and succeed with it. THAT part is tough.
[19:30] <troy_s> persia: Practically - given the past say, 10 years? We suck.
[19:30] <troy_s> lol
[19:30] <troy_s> persia: So something needs to shift likely. That something is what I believe Havoc _nails_ on the head.
[19:32] <persia> Yes, but he didn't actually follow through.
[19:32] <persia> There are folk who *are* creating that experience, but they do it on the edges, in small teams.
[19:32] <troy_s> persia: He did though. :)
[19:32] <persia> And some of the stuff is hard to get back.
[19:32] <troy_s> persia: He bailed on the whole GNOME culture and walked out to work with Litl.
[19:32] <persia> I know.
[19:32] <troy_s> persia: But does that 'edge' approach work?
[19:33] <troy_s> persia: Look at GNOME3 - that isn't edge work.
[19:33] <persia> In terms of creating a compelling experience, yes.  In terms of changing the culture of mainstream free software?  Not really.
[19:33] <troy_s> persia: Wow. Ok. So I guess we have to disagree then.
[19:34] <troy_s> persia: I find GNOME3 interface mocks and every section of Free Software from the _core_ entirely hopeless. I may be missing something granted.
[19:34] <troy_s> persia: I'd love to see an example that you would cite though.
[19:34] <persia> troy_s: I agree with you about that.
[19:34] <persia> I just believe there is good work happening at the edges, in derivatives, based on core libraries 3-5 years old.
[19:34] <troy_s> wtf... I have a lot of Mountain View hits lately.
[19:35] <persia> By small teams.
[19:36] <troy_s> persia: Agree likely. It reeks of hegemony though. Unfortunate. Especially when some of the bastions that many celebrate as being core to the culture are actually half committed dual booters etc.
[19:38] <persia> You conflate "core" meaning "central" and "core" meaning "governing".  Don't do that.
[19:38] <persia> Many folks are conservative.  Those that are tend to cluseter, and those that aren't tend to head off in wildly different directions.
[19:39] <persia> As a result it appears the majority is conservative.  This may or may not actually be true.
[19:39] <persia> But there is no usefully organised governance.
[19:39] <persia> The software is free.
[19:40] <persia> The true subversive will work to enable the exciting in the base libraries while supporting the staid.
[19:40] <persia> This distributes support for the ability to do the interesting and reduces the effort required.
[19:40] <persia> Those on the edges can create more exciting things, and pull in more directions.
[19:41] <persia> This diffuses the core, and enables the subversive.
[19:42] <troy_s> But the question I guess I have is, is that the case?
[19:43] <persia> Do you mean: are there subversives?
[19:43] <persia> Or do you question my model?
[19:45] <troy_s> persia: I agree that the premise is correct. But what is coming out doesn't seem to suggest that it is working.
[19:45] <persia> Then I contend you aren't looking.
[19:45] <troy_s> persia: Practically - I like the idea but the reality doesn't seem to be that way.
[19:45] <persia> Consider the way plasma works, and how those interfaces are constructed, and what that enables.
[19:46] <persia> Consider what pulse + gstreamer + libcamberra has enabled
[19:46] <troy_s> persia: Hrm. But plasma's ability to see further life sort of depends on someone actually using that and demonstrating in a compelling fashion. I'm all for that. I just don't see it.
[19:46] <troy_s> persia: Rather like when I did a really poopy demo in Blender and someone goes "I had no idea that you could do that. I'm going to try it."
[19:46] <persia> troy_s: You'll end up seeing it in some device based on linux with some monolithic source repo.
[19:47] <persia> It will take a long time for it to filter back.
[19:47] <persia> Or some art demo
[19:47] <troy_s> persia: That's sort of more my point. I'm not saying that the underlying structure isn't strong in some cases (and godawful weak in others - hello ffmpeg)
[19:47] <persia> Or something.
[19:47] <troy_s> persia: It can't take a long time. 
[19:47] <persia> Why not?
[19:47] <troy_s> persia: Today blips in the fastest timeslice
[19:47] <persia> Yes, but free code lasts forever, bugs and all.
[19:48] <troy_s> persia: By the time someone has embraced it, it will be exactly where we are now. To quote Rich's quote - the best damn piano rolldown ever but we are all using PMPs now.
[19:48] <persia> And as we enable the edges to be more exciting, we draw funding to the edges, and that funding pushes the core, and the feedback loop tightens.
[19:48] <persia> For example, the arbitrary user cannot create the N900 experience.
[19:49] <persia> But in creating the N900 experience, Nokia needed to enable others to create massive portions of it.
[19:49] <troy_s> persia: The _only_ problem with the theory is that every second that we stall, we lose gravity and people that move on. Not many are as comitted.
[19:49] <persia> This is a repeatable event.
[19:49] <troy_s> persia: N900 is such an non event. Bad example.
[19:49] <troy_s> lol
[19:49] <troy_s> persia: I'd buy into it if you had of said Android.
[19:49] <persia> No.  It is a good example of the feedback loop.  That the interface happens to suck is separate.
[19:49] <troy_s> persia: LOL
[19:50] <persia> Android is a bad example of the feedback loop.
[19:50] <persia> It was not created based on what had been enabled.
[19:50] <troy_s> persia: I think we are likely on the same side of the discussion. My only issue is that it doesn't happen fast enough because we are avoiding the central issue in Havoc's post. It would be a helluva lot faster, a helluva lot less stop energy, etc., if everyone embraced the idea that we are dealing with audience constraints. 
[19:50] <persia> It was created from scratch with only the slightest reference to free software.
[19:51] <persia> To me the obvious solution is to splinter the deliverable sufficiently that each product is uniquely tailored to an audience of one.
[19:52] <troy_s> persia: Bingo.
[19:52] <persia> and the only way to do that is to bring the enablement enough to the surface that every user is inherently creating their own interface.
[19:52] <persia> But this must be done in a way that appears to be based on defaults.  Just handing people E17 is insufficient because the tools are not there.
[19:52] <troy_s> persia: Won't happen. There are vast untapped audiences that have no desire to do that.
[19:52] <persia> To get the tools we need time.
[19:52] <persia> troy_s: How many users do you know who don't set the background?
[19:52] <troy_s> unless you mean distro end zones
[19:53] <troy_s> persia: Not going to disagree with you there at all. But when it comes to adding backgrounds, then buttons, etc., you are dealing with time and you could make a pretty strong case that the numbers (currently - may change) don't bear it out.
[19:53] <troy_s> persia: And perhaps more importantly, giving a sane starting point for that audience to uptake is the bigger hill at this point.
[19:54] <troy_s> persia: If the audience never touches it, never even sniffs at it, everything beyond that is _moot_.
[19:54] <persia> The key is making the tools to create the interface sufficiently invisible to the user that the experience of customisation has no barrier to entry.
[19:55] <persia> That takes time, and in the meantime, to secure continued support from those members of the larger development community we must agree to some perhaps less ideal defaults and experiment on the edges.
[19:56] <persia> Audience uptake is mostly a matter of retail sale.  90% of devices sold do not end up with a replacement operating system.
[19:56] <persia> I suspect that number would be 95-98% if our software stack was more widely available.
[19:56] <persia> Retail sale is a matter of compelling demonstrations to product manufacturers.
[19:57] <persia> But that happens on the edges, where experimentation is available.
[19:57] <troy_s> persia: Moot point. If that were the sole thing, Microsoft would have zero competition.
[19:57] <persia> That e.g. GNOME goes in the wrong direction has zero impact there, and it is there that the game is won.
[19:57] <troy_s> persia: There's more complexity under that hood.
[19:57] <persia> True.
[19:58] <troy_s> persia: Not easy answers for certain, but it certainly deals with audience desire.
[19:58] <troy_s> persia: And getting there we can't skirt around the issue by saying "It certainly deals with ___________ desire."
[19:58] <persia> No, that's pointless.
[19:58] <troy_s> persia: (As much as it is equally easy to say YES to with that huge blank in there.)
[19:58] <persia> It's about desire in the raw form.
[19:58] <persia> which has nothing to do with any use case.
[19:59] <troy_s> persia: (Which is where we are. We are starting to say the right words like "Cool" "Funky" "Quirky" "Elegant" "Beautiful" blah blah, but we are phrasing that exact phrase with that glaring blank. Unfortunately, again the question looks easy to answer WITHOUT the term and COMPLICATED as hell with.)
[20:00] <persia> I suspect that if one sold a device that was incapable of browsing the internet, listening to music, or permitting voice calling, one could still be successful if one was able to depoy it with an enviable interface and complex communications protocol to other users involving text and pictures.
[20:00] <troy_s> persia: Which gets us back to bright wieners like you and ScottL_ actually blogging about those issues.
[20:00] <troy_s> persia: And the research would bear you out.
[20:01]  * persia still doesn't blog, and needs to go eat something now.
[20:01] <troy_s> persia: LOL.
[20:02] <troy_s> persia: http://www.sigchi.org/chi97/proceedings/paper/nt.htm
[20:03] <troy_s> "Thus, it is possible that among the various factors that affect system usability in particular and system acceptability in general, interface aesthetics play a major role. Aesthetics affect people's perceptions of apparent usability—which, in turn, may influence longer term attitudes towards the system."
[20:03] <troy_s> "Thus, it would appear that mainstream HCI (but, of course, see Laurel [15,16] for a notable exception) either belittles the importance of aesthetics or ignores it altogether."
[20:03]  * ScottL_ blogs but doesn't know that anyone knows about or reads it 
[20:03] <troy_s> ScottL_: Where is your blog?
[20:04] <ScottL_> http://dullass.blogspot.com/    but's its mainly just so that I can document stuff for myself so that I can remind myself what I did
[20:05] <ScottL_> that's a quote from Shakespeare, before you ask about dullass
[20:05] <ScottL_> dull ass - two words, not one (dullass)
[20:05] <ScottL_> Cudgel thy brains no more about it, for your dull ass will not mend his pace with beating - Hamlet
[20:06] <ScottL_> as I get more knowlege and comfortable as a Ubuntu Studio developer (in-training) I'll get around to offering opines on different aspect
[20:06] <troy_s> lol
[20:07] <troy_s> ScottL_: Gravity. Just do it.
[21:36] <ScottL_> persia: I tried to find a rather accessible tutorial for Plymouth - I failed    Google said, "No Plymouth for you!"    so I will not be providing anything, even by the weekend
[21:37]  * persia digs a tutorial out of the archives
[21:41] <persia> http://brej.org/blog/?cat=16
[21:52] <ScottL_> hmmm, that's for Fedora, I'll read through and see if I think I can make it happen in Ubuntu