[00:02] <andreasn> kwwii, I think it might be this one https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=437358
[00:04] <andreasn> and this one (maybe) https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=426732
[00:06] <kwwii> andreasn: yes, indeed
[00:06] <kwwii> I will forward that to our mozilla contact
[00:06] <kwwii> they asked for bugs today
[00:32] <sanderqd> these themes feel very nice, after an hour of using them
[00:33] <troy_s> sanderqd: Screenshots?
[00:34] <sanderqd> troy_s: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/575568/radiance.png
[00:35] <troy_s> sanderqd: Oof. Dark?
[00:36] <sanderqd> troy_s: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/575568/ambiance.png
[00:37] <sanderqd> at first sight i thought they didn't look nice, but there's something about how they feel
[00:37] <troy_s> sanderqd: Erm... did they locate those buttons on the left?
[00:38] <sanderqd> troy_s: i did, and the _ [] X order was bugged anyway
[00:38] <troy_s> sanderqd: Dark is the way to go hopefully. Windeco still is troubled as hell, as is the bold of the title.
[00:38] <sanderqd> so it seems they are optimising for the new position
[00:38] <sanderqd> yeah, visually a lot can be improved
[00:38] <troy_s> sanderqd: I sure hope it isn't there. It is just a landmine of OSX.
[00:39] <sanderqd> but they have hit something with the colors and depth, somehow. Radiance feels very solid, while Ambience feels fun when hacking and doing graphics
[00:40] <troy_s> sanderqd: Light's hue is off. They should really get the other leg of that triad.
[00:40] <troy_s> sanderqd: It is _darn_ close to being there already. If I guess, I'm guessing it is a yellowish hue (no wheel close)
[00:41] <sanderqd> troy_s: did you read sabfdl's post about the new branding btw? he's got some interesting explanation about how variables are incorporated, and it seems the new font will be used in the whole interface
[00:41] <troy_s> sanderqd: No.
[00:41] <troy_s> sanderqd: Yeah and I'm hoping he is dead wrong and in the dark. lol.
[00:41] <sanderqd> http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/308
[00:41] <troy_s> sanderqd: I have faith that kwwii said there will be a sans and a serif etc for the family.
[00:41] <troy_s> sanderqd: Avoid the now classic 'put ubuntu face everywhere'
[00:42] <troy_s> sanderqd: I can only assume that Ken or someone will say something at some point. NO clue though really.
[00:42] <troy_s> sanderqd: I mean - ask yourself why it took this long and you get a pretty clear picture :)
[00:42] <troy_s> sanderqd: It isn't like this is all new and fresh thinking. lol.
[00:42] <sanderqd> troy_s: might make a huge difference if this new font is designed for ubuntu's screen rendering at small sizes
[00:42] <troy_s> sanderqd: Honestly, that's too retro thinking for me.
[00:43] <troy_s> sanderqd: Densities are going through the roof. Resolutions are shooting upward not downward.
[00:43] <troy_s> sanderqd: So while hinting is terrific and all, I am wondering if the era of the return to Serifs might be upon us.
[00:43] <troy_s> sanderqd: They have huge upside and bring a pretty unique set of looks to the table.
[00:44] <sanderqd> interesting, do you think serif has an upside in readability, or just in style?
[00:44] <troy_s> sanderqd: Random arty crap there though. I'm just thinking it might be darn cool to think future driven and focus on desktop - not try to worry too much about lowest common denominator (although it is easy to provide for that realistically... I'm sure there is a well hinted lower face that could be paired well)
[00:44] <sanderqd> (when used at the right resolution, that is)
[00:44] <troy_s> sanderqd: Traditionally serifs are used in print for a reason - the serifs (WESTERN BIAS ON) lend to horizontal flow - that's part of their purpose.
[00:45] <troy_s> sanderqd: Practically, many have a pretty 'classy' feel to them.
[00:45] <sanderqd> troy_s: but in interfaces, you don't have a lot of text, and certainly no flow. you don't read a menubar as a paragraph
[00:45] <troy_s> sanderqd: And god knows we are living in an era that has beat the hell out of sans. How many times can Apple change their sans before we see a flip flop back to serif?
[00:46] <troy_s> sanderqd: Certainly appropriate thinking. How much time do you spend reading blogs / news / webpages though?
[00:46] <troy_s> sanderqd: I am not saying "ZOMG ITS AN EASY ANSWER", but just sort of throwing it out there as a thought.
[00:46] <sanderqd> yeah, it's interesting. i've worked with a serif interface font for some months, years ago, think it was Knuth's Computer Modern
[00:47] <sanderqd> looked great
[00:47] <troy_s> sanderqd: There are upsides for EuroWestern LTR with serif. There is an aesthetic side as well. It is entirely possible that in today's day and age that 'readability' is growing more subjective to devices than it is getting more 'global' (which is a rubbishy term as Marco Van Hout has pretty much shown)
[00:47] <troy_s> sanderqd: They are interesting.
[00:47] <troy_s> sanderqd: Some of them are just damn ... craftsmanlike.
[00:48] <troy_s> sanderqd: There is a sterility to some of the sans (Helloooooooo Helvetica - nuff said)
[00:48] <sanderqd> the desktop doesn't need to look too sterile
[00:49] <troy_s> sanderqd: But really, we should be peeling a page out of Bringhurst and thinking that if we can deliver something that has legibility (which face _doesn't_ today? if not broken hinting?), perhaps we should look to something that has a serious bit of history regarding Libre history. Is there a face that has meaning?
[00:49] <troy_s> sanderqd: 100%. Desktop? How about a living room? When Xerox invented the desktop way back when, it was an office space. Hence folders etc. What is it _now_?
[00:51] <troy_s> sanderqd: Looks like it's close to yellow if you use orange as the base of the triad. Almost a lime.
[00:51] <sanderqd> troy_s: you're trying to find out the Radiance colour?
[00:52] <troy_s> sanderqd: It is _deadly_ tricky to tone interface panels though. I'm not against it, but I know damn well how hard it is. http://colorschemedesigner.com/#0i32PsslRw0w0
[00:53] <troy_s> sanderqd: If you _really_ nerfed a tone you _might_ be able to get away with it.
[00:53] <troy_s> sanderqd: But it is a tough sell.
[00:53] <troy_s> sanderqd: A really wide triad you can get ballparkish.
[00:53] <sanderqd> so i think typography matters a lot in interfaces - more than widgets maybe. mac os x looks great, not because of the weird candy buttons, but because Lucida makes great fonts. have you checked out the zune ui?
[00:53] <troy_s> sanderqd: (Tremendous site by the way, if you didn't already know about it... it gets better every release)
[00:54] <troy_s> sanderqd: Zune HD is _phenomenal_ and I don't say that easily.
[00:54] <sanderqd> looks useful indeed
[00:54] <troy_s> sanderqd: It makes me envious of working on that team. That's pretty incredible.
[00:54] <troy_s> sanderqd: Dare I say that the Zune HD typographic delivery and such sets the bar.
[00:54] <troy_s> sanderqd: Imagine someone standing up in front of our culture and saying "OK, I propose typographic play where we actually cut off the label heading of your current area on the top, left, and right.
[00:55] <sanderqd> never tried whether their way of hiding stuff is any useful, but it looks great and 'futuristic', paradoxically
[00:55] <troy_s> sanderqd: It looks just... contemporary. Chic.
[00:55] <troy_s> sanderqd: It borrows enough out of the contemporary design from magazines and such.
[00:56] <sanderqd> yeah, just 'real typography'
[00:56] <troy_s> sanderqd: Which is a case in point - look outside of the fricking closet of Apple and Microsoft. Look to architecture. Look to magazines. Look to fashion. You probably already are if you give a flying hoop about art and design.
[00:56] <troy_s> sanderqd: This clip shows it off extremely well.
[00:56] <troy_s> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_WPdg6zUeE
[00:57] <troy_s> sanderqd: It is just so damn well done it is disturbing how far behind we are falling. But the community at large has shown a much more sincere interest in art / design / aesthetic / experience in the past two years I would say. There is momentum.
[00:58] <troy_s> sanderqd: I bet you dollars for doughnuts that the ZuneHD work has floated through Apple with some degree of envy. It's pretty fantastic.
[00:58] <sanderqd> so it looks creepy to me to only show 'ALBUMS ARTIST PLA' and assume that the user knows there are SONGS, PICTURES etc too. but they'll have tested that
[00:58] <troy_s> sanderqd: Don't worry about it. You selected it right?
[00:59] <troy_s> sanderqd: Part of your problem is that you are saying 'user' in my mind. Simple language, but try changing it to one of your friends names.
[01:00] <troy_s> sanderqd: It _entirely_ shifts the way you perceive your 'guesses'. And that is exactly what they are - guesses. Judgement calls. When you firmly locate a name to something, you get a much clearer picture than rolling out random 'user' or 'Persona A Jim'
[01:00] <troy_s> sanderqd: If I said 'Engage the user with an emotional experience' you would design one thing. If I said "Engage your mother with an emotional experience" you would likely have a much better idea and push things much harder.
[01:01] <sanderqd> you're right with "you selected it," that wasn't visible with the screen resolution. so it's really mostly a ZUI, and that's awesome
[01:01] <troy_s> sanderqd: It's just damn ... on. Open up any of the music magazines on the shelf at your local big book store. You could hold that up and go "You know what - this pairs really well with it."
[01:02] <troy_s> sanderqd: And bingo - you can see your context and likely who the audience is for that device. It isn't for your 40 year old father or mother. Sure they might totally love it, but isn't the target.
[01:02] <sanderqd> you're probably right that something like this can only be achieved with a very different approach. which sounds feasable within the OSS community too, just some people need to stand up
[01:03] <troy_s> sanderqd: If anything, our community should be able to deliver _more_ diversity at a _greater_ pace than the two other folks.
[01:04] <troy_s> sanderqd: So while people knock "Ubuntu Muslim Edition" or "Ubuntu Christian Edition", if you visualize a future where their execution is _on point_, you can clearly see a world where A and MS cannot compete. Nor would they _dare_.
[01:04] <sanderqd> delivering is hard, technologically speaking. you can't just create a whole new experience with our complex gtk+ apps
[01:04] <troy_s> sanderqd: We have some _extremely_ brilliant coders in our community. Pure genius.
[01:05] <sanderqd> sure, but right now they're very much needed for the core ubuntu
[01:05] <troy_s> sanderqd: When a problem is framed concretely, I would be as bold as to say that there are very few groups out there capable of solving problems as efficiently.
[01:05] <troy_s> sanderqd: Who knows. You just never know who is going to come up. Right now the landscape is ripe for competition.
[01:06] <sanderqd> it would be really cool if ubuntu featured something like real culture-specfic themes. so that i can have an african week, and someone in the usa can experience modern dutch design
[01:08] <troy_s> sanderqd: I brought that up years ago.
[01:08] <troy_s> sanderqd: Shot down so fast it would make your head spin.
[01:08] <sanderqd> yeah, though i saw you writing about it yesterday too
[01:08] <troy_s> sanderqd: I brought up cultural specific icons as well.
[01:08] <troy_s> sanderqd: And the response from someone on high "Does Microsoft or Apple do that?"
[01:08] <sanderqd> it's currently incredibly hard (years ago even more), having so few good designers in the community. (really few)
[01:09] <troy_s> sanderqd: So ... part of it is clearly a cultural shift. I can't even begin to wrap my head around traditional Mandarin interfaces.
[01:09] <sanderqd> but that's a bad response indeed
[01:09] <troy_s> sanderqd: Which is why I'd make a strong case that when we _choose_ an audience, we should likely choose an influential one. What is wrong with offering Lawrence Lessig a hotline for support and an Ubuntu computer? How about Cory Doctorow? Etc.
[01:10] <troy_s> sanderqd: The creatives that already _get it_ are likely some extremely powerful and influential allies to be gained.
[01:12] <sanderqd> i think we're only just getting at a point where that's feasible, where ubuntu really has something to offer as an OS
[01:12] <sanderqd> it's telling that many ubuntu / gnome designers still use macosx right now
[01:12] <troy_s> sanderqd: My _big_ hope is that Canonical is able to either leverage or subsidize the important missing features in our design apps. Deep colour. Linear colour. Performance. etc.
[01:12] <troy_s> sanderqd: It's shameful. Not telling.
[01:13] <troy_s> sanderqd: It shows a face of a group of people that are half-committed. "Come over and use xxx while I use yyy"
[01:13] <troy_s> sanderqd: And again, I always ask this: How long do you think you would work at Apple if you insisted on carrying around a Zune or using Windows 7?
[01:13] <sanderqd> yeah well, a chicken-and-egg problem that can be solved by paying designers to use ubuntu for now
[01:14] <troy_s> sanderqd: If you are paying them, I'm pretty sure you should be able to get some change. And being an extremely influential project, you should be able to get change out of the projects that they are relying on.
[01:14] <sanderqd> not paying extra, but having a corporate culture where using something different is as 'not done' as in apple, of course
[01:14] <troy_s> sanderqd: It is win win.
[01:15] <troy_s> sanderqd: Stress test the software. Where it breaks, get the changes done. As it is now, everyone keeps going 'well it can't xxx' and then bails back to the dual boot.
[01:16] <sanderqd> not everyone i suppose, most software on ubuntu is as good or better than elsewhere. our design tools are just not good enough yet
[01:16] <troy_s> sanderqd: There are plenty of gripes in audio land too. But that's the point - the audience for those applications should be the focus. Worrying about single window in a UI is such amoot point.
[01:18] <sanderqd> and that's where the desktop will shine anyway - most non-specialistic apps will find a better place on the web
[01:18] <troy_s> sanderqd: And there are some productivity issue in officeland too. The breaking point is that while the 'full time professional' needs come in. While they probably only make up say, 20% of the usage, that 20% is mandatory. If you can't do xxx in office (god knows there are a few of those) then the whole thing is a toss out.
[01:19] <troy_s> sanderqd: True. We can find a little hope in Google for non intensive apps. That still leaves a glaring hole in audio / visual design where performance is likely years away.
[01:20] <sanderqd> only years by the way, there is web technology coming that brings native performance to web apps (google's native-client)
[01:22] <sanderqd> and the whatwg is working on letting webapps use local hardware better, like sound and video devices
[01:23] <troy_s> crappers. net hits thru the roof today. erk.
[01:29] <troy_s> sanderqd: Great chat. Nice to actually be having them in these parts. Off to pickup my daughter. Be good friend.
[01:30] <sanderqd> troy_s: inspiring chat indeed, take care
[01:52] <wers> is the package for light themes up yet? if so, what's the package name? :)
[01:55] <sanderqd> wers: something like light-theme
[01:55] <sanderqd> light-themes, actually
[01:56] <wers> sanderqd, thanks. found it. it depends on ubuntu-mono, but i cant find it. hmmm
[01:56] <sanderqd> wers: it's the icon theme, you might have to wait an hour for it to appear on your local repository
[01:57] <wers> ubuntu-mono is the name of the icon theme? hmm. i thought it was the other mono
[01:58] <wers> sanderqd, where can i find that package? i'm on karmic, actually. i'm just pulling stuff from other repos
[01:58] <sanderqd> wers: should be in main i guess
[01:58] <wers> sanderqd, you mean, lucid main, right?
[01:58] <sanderqd> but i'm not sure the themes will work on karmic, they might depend on major gtk+ changes
[01:58] <sanderqd> yeah
[01:59] <wers> it's weird cause i cant even find ubuntu-mono on http://packages.ubuntu.com/
[01:59] <wers> probably it's contained in another meta-pacakge and it doesnt appear as an individual package
[02:01] <wers> anyway, gtg
[06:31] <LLStarks> kwwii. light or dark for default?
[07:21] <DaemonFC> what gives with the incorrect order of minimize/maximize?
[07:21] <DaemonFC> persia, there you go :)
[09:19] <zniavre> good morning
[09:41] <thorwil> good morning!
[10:12] <iainfarrell> morning!
[10:22] <thorwil> iainfarrell: can you give me the definitive orange and aubergine values to use?
[10:24] <iainfarrell> hey thorwil
[10:24] <iainfarrell> we are getting test prints back today
[10:25] <iainfarrell> this will allow us to see what the variation on the colours is on different paper types
[10:25] <iainfarrell> once that's done I should have final values
[10:25] <thorwil> ok
[10:27] <thorwil> i guess the announcements made it seem a little bit more finished than it actually is
[10:40] <zniavre> do you see how tooltips can be displayed differently on rgba supported application as system-monitor or nautilus ?
[10:45] <zniavre> or just in one application (eg emesene) http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/3038/capturewb.png   vs http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/918/capture1r.png
[13:32] <tgpraveen12> i just got the new themes and again now have the problem of the new-message-icon for message-indicator not being distinctly visible
[13:33] <tgpraveen12> i liked the icon before this one where it become bright green. should i file a bug for this?
[13:36] <zniavre> it came with ubuntu-mono you should try to change icons theme to humanity-dark or light
[13:42] <tgpraveen12> zniavre: i found a bug about my issue.
[13:43] <zniavre> a ok
[13:43] <tgpraveen12> i would like to stick to the default one only.
[13:43] <zniavre> im not sure i can help you for that   , sorry
[14:30] <zniavre> http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/3166/screenshot1qy.png    there is a bug with indicator-sound ubuntu-mono icon no ?
[14:30] <zniavre> uggly one is indicator-sound, good one is gnome-volume-control-applet
[14:42] <MTecknology> Is the new theme goin to be opened up to the public?
[14:59] <dashua> kwwii, Radiance needs normal focused prelight and pressed icons.  The icons are all the same and there is no effect.
[14:59] <dashua> I'll file a bug :)
[14:59] <dashua> Noe intentional, right?
[14:59] <dashua> Not*
[15:09] <kwwii> dashua: yes, I know...we're still working on the buttons so I wanted to wait (avoiding doing too much work)
[15:09] <kwwii> dashua: feel free to file a bug
[15:10] <dashua> Ok np.  Trying to help fix some bugs here :)
[15:10] <kwwii> dashua: thanks ;)
[15:10] <dashua> Awesome themes man.
[15:11] <kwwii> hehe, thanks...I think our team has really shown it's presence now!
[15:14] <dashua> For sure.  Very nice work.
[15:47]  * kwwii leaves for the airport
[17:15] <knome> iainfarrell, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Brand/DerivativesRoadmap - we're working on it with paolo
[17:16] <iainfarrell> hey knome, he mentioned
[17:16] <iainfarrell> that's cool
[17:16] <knome> great :)
[17:18] <knome> btw, any idea when we'll get the vector stuff? i'm still anxiously waiting..
[17:18] <knome> i pretty much would like to see the logo variations with the final text
[17:27]  * thorwil wonders if he should or shouldn't do cycling jerseys
[17:27] <knome> what do you mean by "doing"
[17:28] <thorwil> knome: saw the mail from Trey on artwork list?
[17:28] <knome> no
[17:28] <knome> i don't think i'm on the artwork list right now
[17:28] <thorwil> knome: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2010-March/011857.html
[17:29] <knome> right
[17:29] <knome> probably you should
[17:45] <islington> I think that dragging toolbar+menubar is a great thing, in kde one of the reasone I love bespin is beecause there is a hack that lets me drag anywhere there isnt a widget
[18:07] <psyke83> hi
[18:43] <thorwil> ouch, that's harsh: http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/308#comment-324270
[19:22] <ripps> Does the new radiance and ambiance themes have launchpad bzr branches?
[19:49] <Agafonov> Yes, and where to fill bugs against them? :)
[20:01] <knome> thorwil, people are barbars.
[20:20] <Agafonov> will bugreport against "ubuntu-artwork" project... ;-)
[20:23] <islington> thorwil: lol'ed Grade A rage going there
[20:29] <thorwil> troy_s: http://vimeo.com/9865011
[20:36] <troy_s> thorwil: Wow... even at Flash's uber crappy 1 frame per second it's pretty damn cool.
[20:36] <troy_s> I was expecting an art film rendering... it's a little more Pixar meets Transformers. Lol.
[20:37] <thorwil> troy_s: it makes my inner industrial designer smile!
[20:39] <thorwil> heh, solidworks/rhino -> blender
[20:39] <thorwil> the first 2 were popular at my university
[20:44] <mrmcq2u> Hey guys, nice work on the menubar :D That something which irritated me about themes like shiki :D
[20:47] <thorwil> mrmcq2u: hi. the people responsible are barely represented/present here
[20:47] <mrmcq2u> ah
[20:47] <mrmcq2u> Has danrabbits mockups for the software center been discussed?
[20:48] <thorwil> mrmcq2u: i'm not aware of the mockup or any discussion
[20:48] <mrmcq2u> http://DanRabbit.deviantart.com/art/Redesigned-Software-Center-I-144074860
[20:48] <mrmcq2u> I think that the departments section needs some work too
[20:48] <thorwil> mrmcq2u: guess that would be more a topic for mpt, who is never in this channel
[20:50] <mrmcq2u> other than the unfinished look of the blue departments and more info page of the software center its seems to be shaping up nicely, I love how I can manage external repos now, I dont feel compelled to use synaptic for the most part.
[20:51] <mrmcq2u> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_FJH0hYZmVtc/S5ADap_601I/AAAAAAAAGOw/mma0S35XdC0/s1600-h/Ubuntu_Light___Re_Imagined_by_fibermarupok.jpg
[20:51] <mrmcq2u> have you seen that
[20:52] <mrmcq2u> would be nice if that look for the volume applet was possible in the next release :)
[20:54] <mrmcq2u> would be nice to be able to use it for the all the applets including the clock to keep it consistent and also for right click context menu's
[20:54] <mrmcq2u> The clock can look out of place to the rest of the applets with some dark themes like shiki
[20:56] <zniavre> mrmcq2u,  +1 fot volume stuff
[20:57] <zniavre> for*
[21:06] <artir> Ubuntu's new icon theme is called...
[21:06] <artir> ubuntu-mono
[21:06] <artir> scared :) ?
[21:08] <thorwil> as long as it isn't iIcons ...
[21:18] <artir> thorwil: not yet, but that's for ubunntu 11.10 , which will of course feature the iCons and will look like this http://grigio.org/files/ubuntu-mac.jpg
[21:19] <mrmcq2u> Have you guys seen this yet? http://fibermarupok.deviantart.com/art/Banshee-RythmBox-Re-Imagined-156231564
[21:19] <mrmcq2u> His icons in this mockup for play/pause/skip etc seem to be a better fit than the current icons for the new theme - http://fibermarupok.deviantart.com/art/Banshee-RythmBox-Re-Imagined-156231564
[21:19] <artir> yep
[21:19] <artir> I hope the new themes ends up becoming sth like that
[21:20] <mrmcq2u> atir - you realise apple didn't invent monochrome icons right?
[21:22] <mrmcq2u> They have been used on mobiles for quite awhile now. I don't here people complaining about android icons being monochrome :) or symbian etc
[21:23] <mrmcq2u> I love the toolbar in the rhythmbix mockup :), I am not a fan of the flat look which shiki and the new ubuntu theme uses
[21:26] <artir> I know
[21:26] <artir> I was being sarcastic
[21:53] <islington> http://blog.nixternal.com/2010.03.05/let-me-tell-you-where-to-put-the-buttons/
[21:53] <islington> lol
[23:06] <andreasn> mrmcq2u, http://www.aiga.org/content.cfm/symbol-signs :)
[23:59] <kwwii> andreasn: nice ;)