DanaG1No command 'strace' found, did you mean:02:23
DanaG1 Command 'dtrace' from package 'systemtap-sdt-dev' (universe)02:23
=== DanaG1 is now known as DanaG
persiaDanaG: On which architecture did you get that?02:33
DanaGARM, ssh login.02:33
persiaReally!  Hrm.02:33
DanaGI also had dbus deny me sending stuff to bluez... had to add myself to 'lp' group.02:33
persiaSo maybe bug #533031 isn't correct.02:33
ubot4Launchpad bug 533031 in command-not-found (Ubuntu) "command-not-found fails to work on ports architectures (affects: 1)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/53303102:33
DanaGmaybe it was just fixed.02:33
persiaStill fails for me for some commands on powerpc.02:34
persiaSeems to work for others.02:34
* persia needs to dig more.02:34
persiaAnyway, about strace: do you have the 'strace' package installed?02:35
DanaG*** glibc detected *** aptitude: double free or corruption (!prev): 0x0029d928 ***02:36
DanaGnope, didn't have it installed.02:36
persiaThere's clearly something wrong with command-not-found, but install it, and it ought work.02:37
persiaI wonder if it works for some commands because they happen to be in arch:all packages (so that they are on archive.ubuntu.com)02:37
DanaG Unhandled fault: external abort on non-linefetch (0x1018) at 0x402b500002:49
DanaGI also have other weird issues.  for example, gnome-disk-utility (palimpsest) can't connect to dbus.02:49
persiaCan you run `ubuntu-bug`?  If so, please file bugs,02:52
DanaGhmm, I'm not sure how much of that is just me not having the right stuff installed -- for example, is dbus supposed to deny stuff over ssh?02:53
DanaGinteresting... it did tell me to install apport.02:55
=== Guest61212 is now known as NCommander
persiaDanaG: How did you set up your environment?03:01
DanaGI used a minimal rootfs image and kernel from rcn-ee.03:20
persiaHow did you construct the minimal rootfs image, or did you get it also from rcn-ee?03:31
DanaGThe latter, yes.03:34
persiaHave to wait until he's about then.  The package relationships *should* enforce it being correct, but I'm not sure the minimal installs get enough testing.03:35
DanaGIt's also odd that I get "class driver suspend failed for CPU 0"03:36
DanaGhmm, I wonder if there03:37
DanaGif there's any point to putting kernel in nand with rootfs still on sd card.03:38
DanaGeh, probably not.03:38
persiaOn my primary armel device, I put both kernel and rootfs on nand.  How much space do you have in nand?03:38
DanaGJust 256 megs for rootfs.03:39
DanaGinteresting... screen as serial console, with another 'screen' underneath, doesn't resize properly.03:42
persia256MB isn't really enough to fit Ubuntu.03:43
DanaGFor sure.03:43
DanaGhmm, is there anything that WOULD be worth putting there?03:43
persiaDepends on what you're doing.03:43
persiaYou could put / there with /usr and /var elsewhere, but that may not help that much.03:44
DanaGyeah, not worth the pain of /var being separate. =þ03:44
persiaIf you don't install that much, you could probably put /usr/bin there.03:45
persia(requires some hackery on setup)03:45
DanaG"Class driver suspend failed for cpu0"03:51
DanaGactual dmesg doesn't give any additional info.03:55
DanaGheh, sensors-detect assumes PCI must exist.04:22
persiaIf you can, please fix that :)04:29
persiaIt should work for i2c with no pci just fine.04:29
DanaGhmm, looks like it's too deeply coded to depend on PCI for its looking-around.04:37
persiaProbably :/04:38
DanaGBetter logic would be this: check for pci i2c; if not loaded, load them.04:42
DanaGNow, even if that fails, go on and check all i2c buses.04:42
persiaWhy?  Shouldn't it check for each bus type and only probe if the bus exists?04:45
persiaSomething like a combination of modprobe and sysfs inspection (to cover in-tree AND external modules)04:45
DanaGyeah, or if it's really lazy, just look at already existing i2c devices in i2c-1 through i2c-whatever.04:47
persiaI think it makes sense to write slightly more robust code :)04:52
DanaGwell, if I were given a choice between what we have now, and that "just use i2c devices already there" way, I'd choose the latter for this ARM thingy.04:54
Baybaldo you have mtd support here?04:54
persiaBaybal: How do you mean "mtd support".  The answer is probably yes, but there are a few bits not yet working perfectly..04:54
Baybalmtd booting04:55
Baybaland mtd as root04:55
persiaThose certainly work: the gap is really mtd install.04:55
persiaSo, to get MTD set up like that, you need to boot in some other way, and then format the MTD, set it up for filesystems, and then manually install stuff.04:56
persiaRight now I like ubifs for / and jffs2 for /boot, but my opinion is changing as I investigate what is required to make install work smoothly.04:57
persiaDanaG: The trick is that the same code has to work for all architectures: it's a huge pain to try to have the script be different for different arches.04:58
Baybali think jtag install is the only option on the most of devices now04:58
persiaBaybal: I don't.  Most devices have some way to boot off SD or HD (although you may need to tweak the bootloader)04:58
DanaGah, as it is right now, it DOESN't work without PCI.  bleh.04:59
persiaDanaG: please fix :)04:59
Baybalno, even those last generation advanced socs lacks it04:59
persiaBaybal: Hrm?  What device do you have that cannot boot off SD or HD?04:59
Bayballike my cell phone05:00
Bayballots of others05:00
Baybalthe only advanced soc which had SD boot I know is TI omap05:00
persiai.MX51x does as well.05:01
persiaBut I only have i.MX51x and Orion9x devices, so I don't really know about others.  I think I have some StrongARMs too, but I haven't played with those in a while.05:01
Bayballike nvidia tegra, qualcoms...05:03
Baybaland most of them are thought as advanced05:03
Baybalalso samsungs...05:04
persiaOK.  So, how do the development boards for those platforms boot?05:04
Baybalon harmony boards there are standalone nor with bootloader05:05
Baybalwhich then tries to do booting05:05
Baybalsome manufacturers simply don't have any kind of dev boards05:05
DanaGhmm, how about the marvell stuff?05:06
Baybaldon't know05:06
DanaGnvidia tegra... wonder what the driver situation is like for those...05:06
DanaGwould it be same as nouveau?05:06
Baybalmuch better than most of other arm socs05:06
Bayballike qualcomm has tons of code with no documentation05:08
persiaI doubt that anyone doesn't produce dev boards (although they may be very difficult to get).05:09
Baybaland different versions of kernel per device running on the same chips05:09
persiaFrom others I hear that marvell can boot off SD.05:09
persia(and my onions can definitely boot off HD)05:10
DanaGsomething I wish: I wish somebody would port 2.6.28 kernel to the realtek RTL8186 (Lexra MIPS) thingy.05:10
persiaDanaG: Have you checked with the Debian MIPS folk?05:10
DanaGI've looked at the kernel itself, and it doesn't seem to support Lexra.05:11
persiaIs there out-of-tree support somewhere?05:12
DanaGOnly in 2.4 kernel.  bleh.05:12
Bayballike qualcomm have 2 kernel with totally different stuff for 2 phones running exactly the same chip05:16
DanaGOh yeah, and that kernel is not 2.4.32 OR linux-mips 2.4.32 -- it's god-only-knows what.05:17
DanaGIt's so bad, you might as well buy a beagleboard and a USB sound card. =þ05:17
BaybalI think at least a fs image + kernel with embedded initrd would be nice05:26
Baybalso it would be possible to flash and boot over jtag05:26
persiaBaybal: So, what's required to boot over jtag?  We can definitely construct rootsfs and initrds.05:29
BaybalJust bootloader and image understandable to it05:30
Baybalthe mechanism works this way05:30
Baybalfirst you flashes memory over jtag to non boot partition05:31
Baybalthen flashes bootloader to boot partition05:31
Baybalthen starts all this things and hope they work05:32
Baybalso we need just a well compact set of images in popular flash filesystems05:32
DanaGI know for the old Zaurus devices, there was this "kexecboot" loader that was made for tiny in-flash execution.05:33
DanaGSo, the kexecboot loader then goes off and loads the real kernel.05:33
Baybalusually something like das u boot sits as a bootloader05:34
Baybaland it would be nice if we would be able to utilise device's stock one05:34
persiaThere's been some work to make kexec() booting work (I think in the mukluk project).05:36
persiaI don't know that it's widely tested yet.05:36
BaybalI think it's far from what is desired05:37
persiaBut for devices that need JTAG to populate the boot space, that approach is probably best.  Otherwise it's hard for end-users to update their kernels.05:37
persiaBaybal: By which audience?05:37
BaybalI think the best would be to utilise bootloaders supplied with device05:38
Baybaland moreover, most socs don't have nand boot logic and they use very tiny boot partitions on nors05:38
Baybalsometimes so small that things like dasuboot can't fit05:39
persiaBaybal: I'm a fan of using bootloaders supplied with devices.  Some just don't happen to support loading arbtrary kernels, and these need to be worked around.05:40
Baybalprobably there are no way other than to have a set of custom bootloaders for every device05:42
persiaIn the x86 world, there are about 8 common first-stage bootloaders, and *one* common second-stage bootloader.05:43
persiaIn the ARM world, there are about 4 common monolithic bootloaders.05:44
persiaThere exists no reason beyond lack of communication and cooperation that the same code can't work everywhere (that's kinda the point of portable code).05:44
Baybaljust because of nand and nor differences for example05:45
persiaThat's just bootloader config.  For example, the i.MX51 can boot from NOR, NAND, or SD, depending on the config with redboot.05:47
persiaNo reason we can't have per-board configs (or even per-install configs), but that doesn't mean we can't have only a few bootloaders.05:47
Baybalit's not a problem on devices with a few megabytes of boot flash, but in example on cell phones boot flash can be small as a few kilobytes05:47
jmc93739653persia & Baybal:  are there relatively simple ways to have Ubuntu's ARMv7-A images start booting from NOR and shift to NAND?  I'm hoping it is something which does not require custom USB images to alter.  (A bit of a cop out, I know.  :)  )05:49
persiajmc93739653: How do you mean "shift"?05:49
persiajmc93739653: Typically the monolithic kernel has to exist on some single device.  No reason you can't do something like bootloader-on-NOR, kernel-on-NAND, rootfs-somewhere-else (I do)05:50
Baybalyes, we would probably end up doing this05:51
BaybalI think there would be no need in custom images, but would be need in custom kernels and bootloaders05:52
persiaBaybal: No need for images?  How does an install happen?05:52
jmc93739653persia: I had finished downloading an earlier Lucid i.MX515 image very late at night, about a month ago. I 'dd' the .img to an SDHC card.  Didn't work (aah, ignorance!), but wanted to ask if the bootloader was a hard-dependency (RedBoot versus u-Boot, for example), or if it could be altered.05:53
persiajmc93739653: You can certainly alter it.  I doubt you can use those SD images except on the dev boards they were designed to run on.05:53
Baybaljust we need to get fs image to be on device flash, then we are free to boot our kernel as we wish05:54
persiaI know they don't work on my NetWalker.05:54
persiaBaybal: That's what the images are designed to do :)  But sure, you don't need to use them.05:54
BaybalUS visa declaration site is such a pain05:55
jmc93739653Baybal: I can alter the provided uBoot source & use the BSP supplied Linux kernel in the stead of the image's default.  (I have no qualms about creating custom images.)05:55
Baybalyeah you can05:56
BaybalPaper forms was much more nicer...05:56
persiajmc93739653: The main tricky bit is that you might have to fiddle with flash-installer to properly install new kernels if you're using .deb format for kernel distribution.05:56
jmc93739653Baybal: I've been rather impressed at the large UX/workflow disparities between different governmental bodies' online softwares.05:57
persiajmc93739653: If you *do* have to fiddle, and you do so in a generic way that keeps other boards working, patches would be appreciated.05:57
BaybalThe main target now is to get linux arm tree unified and not to have few thousands of forks for every chip06:00
jmc93739653persia: Awesome. It's nice having _real_ ARM kit.  The ARMv7-A ISA revision, specifically. The performance improvements stemming from lithographic evolution is quite pleasing.06:00
jmc93739653Baybal: It's the only sane path forward, IMO.06:00
persiaI think we need to take a couple steps with the kernels.06:01
jmc93739653Is linux-omap still a radically different branch than Linus' "vanilla" upstream?06:01
persiaTo me, the first step is to move from one-kernel-per-board to one-kernel-per-SoC06:01
persiaOnce there, moving to one-kernel-per-architecture gets easier.06:01
Baybaland for now I think we would be forced to have multiple kernels on image, like kernel-{broadcom,tegra,omap,msm,etc}06:01
persiajmc93739653: The code is getting closer, but there's still lots of limitations in terms of compiled artifacts.06:02
jmc93739653persia: Is #ubuntu-arm's topic information still up-to-date?  I'd love to be of use.  (I'm no expert [far, far from it], but it is always fun to dive head-first into a new area of expertise.)06:03
jmc93739653persia: I'm beginning to despair at the state of what appears to be _every_ ARM SoC's GPU's drivers.06:03
jmc93739653nVidia's binary blobs seem the least offensive, if only because their Linux x86-32 & x86-64 driver support is always in-tune and on-time.  (Setting aside my ideological/legal misgivings.)06:05
Baybalthe stock kernel can now work only on a handful of devices which were initially planed as completely open06:05
persiajmc93739653: I don't see anything specifically out of date in the topic, except that some of the wiki pages would benefit from a refresh (been on my TODO list for a very long time)06:07
persiajmc93739653: And more hands would certainly be welcome.  The three areas that need the most help are more porting (see the FTBFS list), more porting (see the Thumb2 stuff), and testing.06:07
jmc93739653I need to get a FPGA device in the next year or two and start fiddling with fundamental GPU hardware implementation details.  I'm hoping ARM's future ISA revisions will aid the use of pure CPU-driven graphics engines.  (Multi-core & SIMD advances similar to Intel's Larrabee New Instructions [LRBni] and Advanced Vector Extensions [AVX], et cetera would help immensely.06:09
DanaGMy gripe with nvidia is with the legacy stuff:06:10
persiaOr get an ARM box with PCIe, and use any of the cards for which we have drivers :)06:10
Baybaland it would be nice to stick at least with armv7a with thumb, cache, new eabi and have neon as option06:10
DanaGAll it ever does is segfault the X server.06:10
DanaGAnd then they keep updating it to *segfault* NEW X servers. =þ06:10
persiaBaybal: The rumours I hear are that we'll be seeing that kind of stabilisation in future releases, but it largely depends on enough factors that I can't be sure.06:10
Baybaljust I think there are no point to have support of anything older than cortex cores06:11
Baybaljust because everything older simply is too slow06:12
jmc93739653Off topic: I noticed about ten weeks ago ARM announced certified Jazelle support for Android's Dalvik VM.  So much for field  of use restrictions! :)06:13
Baybalas i know dalvik doesn't use jazelle06:14
Baybaland simply have different bytecode format06:14
jmc93739653Baybal: I've been procrastinating too much reading the reference docs for ARMv6 (i.e. ARM11) and ARMv7 (Cortex-??)06:14
DanaGHmm, there's some confusing naming.06:16
DanaGso ARM11 is weaker than ARM7?06:16
Baybalabout 2 times06:16
Baybalfor cortex a806:16
Baybal1.5 for a506:16
persiaBaybal: lucid doesn't support anything less than ARMv7+vfp+thumb206:16
jmc93739653Baybal: Really?  I could have sworn ARM and the OHA got all lovey during their Solution Center for Android (ARM SCA).06:17
persiaAnd I doubt it works reliably on ARMv7 != ARMv7a06:17
jmc93739653DanaG: ARMv7 refers to the microarchitectural guarantees for ARMv7 instruction set architecture compliant chips.06:18
jmc93739653DanaG: The tell is the "v" between ARM and the numbers following it.06:18
Baybaljust armv7 cores other armv7a are targeted not for consumer electronics06:19
DanaGah, so is Cortex just a marketing name?06:19
Bayballike m and r for something like dishwashers06:19
Baybalcortex just means armv7*06:19
persiaBaybal: Are you *sure* you don't want to run Ubuntu on your dishwasher :)06:19
persia(but more seriously, yeah, ARMv7a is the only target)06:20
BaybalI just want it to play nice on my v7a phone06:20
Baybalwe can run netbsd on toasters and dishwashers =D06:20
jmc93739653DanaG: An ARM1136JF-S, however is a specific ARMv6 compliant CPU design.06:21
Baybalso I think some of developers here should propose shift from v7 to v7a06:21
persiaBaybal: There is already an assumption of v7a, I believe.06:21
persiaOr rather, I don't think there's any available optimisation to be gained by making changes to more aggressively not support 7m or 7r devices.06:22
Baybaljust gcc have different -march values06:22
persiaAnd I know that there's almost no testing done for anything other than 7a06:22
persiaBaybal: Precisely which changes to gcc defaults would you recommend?06:23
Baybaland I suspect that setting -march to other than armv7a greatly limits gcc in selection of instructions06:23
jmc93739653I thought ARMv7-A was a partial superset of ARMv7 µArch; including ARMv7-M and ARMv7-A (dropping the real-time guarantees found in ARMv7-R cores).06:23
Baybalthere are some instruction set differences06:24
jmc93739653Lucid is still using GCC 4.4.x, yes?06:24
jmc93739653(GCC-4.5 still being held up by libgcc licensing issues?)06:24
jmc93739653Thanks all for the lively channel, by the way, this is great fun. :)06:25
persiaI think it's also that lucid is in a test-phase preparing for release.06:25
Baybalso I hope somebody would ensure that gcc is set for armv7a+thumb only06:25
jmc93739653persia: the toolchain has to be locked down by now in the release schedule.  Debian Testing couldm06:26
jmc93739653couldn't have moved that fast. (I know I'm presuming here, so there's definitely a margin of error..)06:28
persiajmc93739653: We usually make best efforts to lock down at least the major version of the toolchain packages in the first month of each release cycle.  Otherwise it's toohard to keep up with 20,000 packages.06:28
jmc93739653persia: Agreed, if there isn't a hard deadline at some point, releases couldn't adhere to any rational schedule.06:30
persiaPrecisely :)06:31
jmc93739653persia: Debugging a toolchain _and_ any given kernel, library, application?  That's asking for pain.06:31
persiaRight, so we tend to freeze toolchain (except for bugfixes for known issues) early, freeze kernel version early (although lots of patches and bugfixes continue), and focus on applications.06:33
persiaWe freeze the application and library versions (mostly) around the middle of the release cycle, and then just try to hammer out all the bugs.06:33
persiaWe've yet to be completely successful, but it works as a model for our release schedules.06:34
Baybaland also gcc doesn't set other necessary flags by default, so ensure things like -mthumb-interwork -mthumb -mtpcs-frame -mcallee-super-interworking06:36
persiaBaybal: Are you sure these aren't being set by Ubuntu gcc by default?  This sounds a lot like a conversation we had at UDS where it was decided to set these by default.06:37
Baybaldon't know06:37
persiaBaybal: Please try (qemu if you don't have hardware).  I think most of your concerns have been addressed.06:40
persiaAnd I think the rest are intersting, but need to be separated and reviewed individually, after comparison with the current defaults.06:41
Baybalcan you give a link to image?06:41
persiaWhich kind?  We have Ubuntu Netbook, Kubuntu Netbook, and Ubutu Server.  Ubuntu Netbook gets the most testing.06:42
persiaLots of folk use rootstock to generate rootfss to meet their needs.06:42
BaybalI mean arm image06:43
persiaBaybal: So do I :)  Which flavour?06:44
persiahttp://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-netbook/ports/daily-live/current/ always points at the most recent image.06:44
persiaIt might not work perfectly (depending on the state of the packages when it was constructed).06:45
Baybalok I would check after I finish downloading movie06:45
persiaAlso note that they are currently images for specific SoCs : you may have to extract the rootfs if you don't have one of those SoCs.06:45
persiaBaybal: Thanks!06:45
Baybalhave you any experience with a9 boards?06:46
persiaNot I.06:46
* jmc93739653 so wishes he had ahold of an A9 MPcore.06:47
Baybalalso it would be interesting if we are going to run it on a5 machines if there would be any other than cellphones06:47
Baybalsmartphone market are probably going to separate on a8 for high end devices and a5 retaining current arm11 position06:49
persiaWhat is a5?06:49
* persia has not previously encountered the term06:49
Baybalarm cortex-a506:49
persiaWhat instruction set does that support?06:50
persiaOh, cool.  No worries then: it ought just work.06:50
Baybalit's going as a change for arm1106:50
persiaIf it's a low-end design, I'd expect to see it also in NAS boxes, home routers, etc.06:50
Baybalprobably it's mostly for cellphones06:51
Baybalas it's our of order, neon, but not superscalar06:51
persiaIs it also cheaper than a8 or a9?06:51
Baybalmuch more06:51
jmc93739653I'm rather bewildered as to why ARM didn't just roll a completely in-house, no third-party IP graphics chip for their Mali line.  They'd have pragmatists ditching ImgTec's PowerVR & Qualcomm Adreno graphics cores ASAP.06:52
persiaThen yeah, I definitely expect to see it in NAS, home routers, watches, etc.06:52
Baybalbut I haven't yet seen any soc based on it with my own eyes yet06:52
persiajmc93739653: Ask the same question for any CPU design firm for any architecture :)06:52
jmc93739653Baybal: I _knew_ the A9 had superscalar OoOE.  I tried finding primary sources a few months back and no joy.06:53
Baybalthey license mali core just as they do with cpu cores06:54
jmc93739653I do find it rather interesting ARM had the benefit of implementing decades old microarchitecture CPU improvements, as process nodes and thermal budgets permit, where as Intel has to strip out the power-intensive features and invest deeply into more and more advanced fabrication nodes.  I'm sure IBM chuckled at Intel during x86's evolution.06:56
Baybala5 don't have superscalar execution because it's thought that for crunching big amounts of data the chip would use various dsps and accelerators06:56
Baybalthe reason is you don't have to have ooo, superscalarity, mmu and fpu to drive dishwashers06:58
persiaWell, depends on the dishwasher :)06:59
Baybalbut anyway a5 is going to be faster than arm1107:00
jmc93739653Baybal: Do you think there are any serious chances ARM would work with the FSF (akin to the Linux Driver Project) to improve [L]GPL toolchain support for their designs?  (Firms deviating from standard IP core offerings would probably not elect to do this)07:01
persiajmc93739653: toolchain isn't the issue at this point.  It's all kernel + drivers.07:01
jmc93739653Baybal: Nice.  I had read the A5 was going to be a dog.07:02
persiacomparatively, surely, but for most applications that oughtn't matter.07:02
persiaWe're arguing about different things.07:03
* jmc93739653 facepalms. persia: you are correct re: kernel & drivers. I conflated toolchain & driver issues. I'm going to need to sleep soon.07:03
persiaI completely agree that you can't make a public bug private.07:03
persiaECHANNEL :)07:03
persiaApologies for those who may have misunderstood. My comment "ECHANNEL" was about *my* traffic being in the wrong place.07:25
persiaEveryone else should feel free to continue.07:25
persiaI just happened to set the wrong focus when having a separate conversation.07:25
jmc93739653I'm happy I haven't entered my IRC passcode in a channel; plain-text, naturally.07:29
persiaI've made that mistake :)  I've also pasted by SSH passkey, my user password, my GPG passkey, etc.07:30
persiaMost of these can be resolved by quick action and judicious choices of passwords, but ... :)07:31
jmc93739653There's always the eight year old password that I use when I'm dog-tired that I know I'll blurt out some day _juuust_ as the search engine crawlers scan wherever I leaked it.07:48
=== 20QAAD298 is now known as Meizirkki
rlaagerThis might be blasphemy here, but I'm wondering how hard it would be to recompile the Ubuntu Lucid for armv5t.10:02
ogra_cmpcmight take you some months (depending onh the amount of pacages you want) and a buildd setup ... and indeed you would need to fix breakage you find along the go10:04
rlaagerHmm, it's probably not worth it then. I was hoping there wasn't a huge delta from Debian (which still works on armv5).10:06
ogra_cmpcif you want v5 better go with debian10:08
ogra_cmpcor stick with jaunty :)10:10
persiaDebian is ARMv4, not ARMv5.10:12
suihkulokkiwhich is 95% irrelevant10:13
persiaBut it's not that much *code* delta, it's just toolchain and compile delta.  There's no reason one can't construct an ARMv5 repo, except nobody has (recently) invested the time into doing so.10:13
persiasuihkulokki: Hrm?  Aren't there a bunch of devices that aren't ARMv5 that Debian supports?10:13
suihkulokkipersia: I mean ARMv4 vs ARMv510:14
persiaI thought that there was some stuff that needed ARMv4.10:15
ogra_cmpcopenmoko, no ?10:15
persiaI thought openmoko was almost-but-not-quite ARMv4 and needed special hacks.10:15
* persia may well be misinformed, but would appreciate correctyion10:16
* ogra_cmpc sighs about qemu ...10:17
* amitk is surprised there is not editor in our initramfs!10:17
ogra_cmpcso i went back with the qemu-system-arm binary to 0.11.1 and still see the hangs10:17
persiaamitk: Why does one need one?10:17
ogra_cmpcamitk, there is ed :)10:17
persiaand busybox-sed10:17
amitkpersia: to edit files if you've messed your sysstem?10:18
amitkogra_cmpc: no ed either10:18
ogra_cmpcand you should be able to chroot into /root and copy back and forth files10:18
amitkogra_cmpc: what if /root is the problem ;)10:18
persiaamitk: There's nothing that you can't do with busybox sed.  Users who want a good interface are encouraged to boot something else and chroot :)10:19
ogra_cmpci.e. copy the file you want to change into /root ... chroot ... edit, exit, copy back10:19
ogra_cmpcamitk, hmm, you could create a vim hook for initramfs-tools that just copy_execs vim10:20
ogra_cmpcindeed if your system is already unbootable you are screwed10:20
persiaamitk: From your preboot environment can you mount anything?  That's often a good way to get to executables.10:21
aaron_liurootstock failed10:24
amitkpersia: yeah, I can get to break=init. So chroot should probably work10:24
ogra_cmpcaaron_liu, what release are you trying to build and whats your host release ?10:26
aaron_liuthe latest release10:29
ogra_cmpclucid on lucid ?10:29
aaron_liusudo apt-get install rootstock10:29
ogra_cmpcon a lucid system ?10:30
ogra_cmpc(10.04 dev)10:30
ogra_cmpc(use lsb_release -a to find out if you dont know)10:30
aaron_liuDistributor ID: Ubuntu10:31
aaron_liuDescription:    Ubuntu 9.1010:31
ogra_cmpcand what are you trying to build ? (did you ude the -d option for rootstock ?)10:31
aaron_liui have update to 9.10 from 9.0410:32
ogra_cmpchmm, that should work ... it does for others ....10:32
ogra_cmpcyou can easily modify the rootstock script in /usr/bin/rootstock though10:33
ogra_cmpcthats the change you need10:33
aaron_liui just follow the steps to compile chrome for arm10:35
ogra_cmpcyes, that should wor10:37
aaron_liubut i don't know where i should to modify10:41
aaron_liubut i don't know where i should to modify   /usr/bin/rootstock10:42
ogra_cmpcopen it in an editor (with sudo) then look for the line that mounts /dev/pts10:42
ogra_cmpcrelatively far at the bottom of the script10:42
ogra_cmpcbefore the mount command you add:10:43
ogra_cmpcmkdir -p /dev/pts10:43
ogra_cmpcthen save the file10:43
aaron_liuE486: Pattern not found: mounts \/dev\/pts10:48
ogra_cmpcnot mounts10:49
aaron_liuE486: Pattern not found: mount \/dev\/pts10:49
ogra_cmpcjust look for \/dev\/pts10:49
aaron_liuyeah found it10:51
aaron_liufollow   echo "I: Starting basic services in VM"10:51
aaron_liubut how to do that next10:51
aaron_liudo i need mkdir -p  /proc /10:52
* lool just discovers about slind.org; apparently a wider set of tools than just emdebian, with some corporate backing10:52
loolNot that active in the last year though10:53
aaron_liuand then i  what should i do10:54
aaron_liuand then  what should i do10:54
ogra_cmpcadd the line i gave you above10:54
ogra_cmpc mkdir -p /dev/pts10:54
aaron_liuyeah ,i have down10:54
ogra_cmpcdirectly above the line where /dev/pts gets mounted10:54
aaron_liuhow to do next ?10:55
ogra_cmpcsave the file10:55
ogra_cmpcthen run it again10:55
ogra_cmpcshould work now10:55
aaron_liurun again , how to run10:56
aaron_liui follow the  steps  http://code.google.com/p/chromium/wiki/LinuxChromiumArm10:57
aaron_liuBuilding a rootfs section command10:57
ogra_cmpcyes, do that10:58
aaron_liusudo rootstock --fqdn beagleboard --login ubuntu --password temppwd --imagesize 2G --seed xfce4,gdm,pkg-config,python,perl,g++,bison,flex,gperf,libnss3-dev,libgtk2.0-dev,libnspr4-0d,libasound2-dev,libnspr4-dev,libgconf2-dev,libcairo2-dev,libdbus-1-dev,libstdc++6-4.4-dev,libexpat1-dev,libxslt1-dev,libxml2-dev,libbz2-dev  --dist karmic10:58
aaron_liubut it need long time to download packages and unzip its10:59
ogra_cmpcyes, thats normal10:59
aaron_liui think there should be a good method to avoid it11:00
ogra_cmpcavoid what ?11:00
aaron_liudownload  pkgs11:00
ogra_cmpcuse an apt proxy11:00
* ogra_cmpc uses approx11:00
ogra_cmpcor a local package mirror11:01
aaron_liui mean if each time runs the system .i need so long time to download pkgs11:02
ogra_cmpcyes, a package proxy or local mirrir help with that11:02
aaron_liuwhere i can got the rootfs11:04
aaron_liuwhere i can got the rootfs in he end11:04
aaron_liuwhere i can got the rootfs in the end11:04
ogra_cmpcthe script tells you where it stored the tarball11:04
aaron_liuBUILDDIR=$(mktemp -d)11:05
ogra_cmpc(similar to how it told you about the logfile when your build failed before)11:06
ogra_cmpclool, so i went backwards through the binary packages replacing qemu-system-arm ... i can even reproduce the hang with the two karmic versions ...11:09
ogra_cmpc(which i cant on a krmic system)11:09
aaron_liuroot@aaron-ubuntu:/tmp/tmp.bypTc6Upgl/tmpmount# ls11:10
ogra_cmpci'm starting to wonder if its an issue with the hostkernel?host system11:11
aaron_liuroot@aaron-ubuntu:/tmp/tmp.bypTc6Upgl/tmpmount# ls11:11
aaron_liudebootstrap  lost+found  var11:11
aaron_liuit's the fsroot ?11:11
ogra_cmpcits the tmeporary dir11:12
aaron_liuis it /tmp/tmp.bypTc6Upgl/qemu-armel-201003071903.img ?11:13
ogra_cmpcno, it is what comes out in the end11:14
ogra_cmpcyou just point to random pieces that are used to assemble the final thing11:15
ogra_cmpcjust wait until its done, i tells you where it copies the final tarball11:15
loolErr build-essential rebuild as part of mass-thumb2 rebuilds?  :)11:17
ogra_cmpcseems it was on the list :)11:17
ogra_cmpclikely a false positive11:17
aaron_liu    LANG=C tar czvf ../armel-rootfs-$STAMP.tgz . >>$LOG 2>&111:18
ogra_cmpci think the list criteria was only: not uploaded and not imported from debian during lucid11:18
loologra_cmpc: And some arch: any package I hope11:22
aaron_liuI: Retrieving .....11:22
aaron_liuI: Validating.....11:22
ogra_cmpclool, i dont know, i didnt assemble that list, i think it comes from some script from doko11:23
ogra_cmpcintrestig, build-essential is any ???11:24
loolbecause the deps differ on architectures11:24
ogra_cmpci thought thats only a metapackage11:24
aaron_liuso long time to  waste each time i runs rootstock for download pkgs ,why it cannot connot runs as begin as  prevoius time11:25
aaron_liuso long time to  waste each time i runs rootstock for download pkgs ,why it cannot runs  begin as  prevoius time11:26
ogra_cmpcbecause the packages are individually selectable ... it doesnt know in the beginning which dependencies are needed11:26
ogra_cmpcit would be possible to generate the dependency chain in advance with germinate... but its unlikely that this would be any faster11:27
aaron_liuok,i known11:27
ogra_cmpcthe lucid (10.04) version of rootstock has a cache function but you need at least one successfull run and you can only do the same run again subsequently11:28
aaron_liuwho have done for chrome in the arm ubuntu-arm platfom11:29
ogra_cmpcthere is a team https://launchpad.net/~chromium-team11:30
aaron_liuit's not for arm11:30
ogra_cmpcsure it is11:31
ogra_cmpcsee the "builds" links on the first page i posted11:32
aaron_liuit desn't show it for arm11:37
ogra_cmpcit does for me11:38
aaron_liuit for arm ?11:42
ogra_cmpcbinary-armel is for arm, yes11:49
ogra_cmpcnote that there are no chromium packages for karmic ... chromium is in the archive for lucid though11:49
aaron_liubin/installer: line 15: udevd: command not found11:52
ogra_cmpcudevd is installed in the first stage, did zou change any other stuff or fiddle in the directories you posted above during the build ?11:55
ogra_cmpcline 433 is your problem11:58
ogra_cmpcis the qemu-arm-static package installed on your system ? seems like your machine cant execute armel binaries12:01
ogra_cmpc(i guess that also caused the /dev/pts issue before)12:02
aaron_liumkdir -p /dev/pts12:03
aaron_liumount -t proc proc /proc12:03
aaron_liumount -t sysfs sys /sys12:03
aaron_liumount -t devpts devpts /dev/pts12:03
aaron_liuudevd --daemon &12:03
ogra_cmpcsee your first paste, it has exactly the same error as line 433 in your second paste12:03
aaron_liubut how  should i do12:04
ogra_cmpcchroot: cannot run command `debootstrap/debootstrap': Exec format error12:04
ogra_cmpcyour system isnt properly set up, the qemu-arm-static package cant execute armel binaires12:05
ogra_cmpcthe /dev/pts issue was only a subsequent error12:05
ogra_cmpccack your installation of qemu-arm-static ... pasting random lines from the rootstockj script doesnt help12:10
ogra_cmpcyour system apparently cant execute armel binaries12:10
aaron_liui think   line num  611 udevd --daemon &    cause error12:11
ogra_cmpcagain ... your qemu-arm-static package is not properly installed12:11
ogra_cmpcfix that and it will work12:12
ogra_cmpcit has nothing to do with udev or /dev/pts12:12
aaron_liubut where i can find qemu-arm-static12:12
ogra_cmpcit is a dependency fo rootstock and should be installed already12:13
ogra_cmpcbut something is wrong with it12:13
ogra_cmpcare you using an ubuntu kernel on your machine ?12:13
ogra_cmpcqemu-arm-static uses the binfmt support of the ubuntu kernel12:13
aaron_liufrom rootstock-201003071903.log12:14
aaron_liufirst line Formatting '/tmp/tmp.bypTc6Upgl/qemu-armel-201003071903.img', fmt=raw size=214748364812:15
aaron_liubu i couldn't find the file '/tmp/tmp.bypTc6Upgl/qemu-armel-201003071903.img'12:15
ogra_cmpcyes ?12:15
ogra_cmpcno, it gets removed during build12:15
ogra_cmpcor rather at the end of the build12:15
ogra_cmpcits a temporary file12:16
aaron_liubut how to do that for me12:16
ogra_cmpcwhat ?12:17
aaron_liuhow i should to do12:17
aaron_liuwhat can i do12:18
ogra_cmpcfix your qemu-arm-static install12:18
aaron_liuapt-get install qemu-arm-static12:19
ogra_cmpctry: sudo apt-get install --reinstall qemu-arm-static12:19
ogra_cmpcthat will force a reinstall12:19
ogra_cmpcalso try sudo /etc/init.d/binfmt-support restart12:20
aaron_liuhave down12:20
ogra_cmpcalso have a look at /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc/12:21
ogra_cmpcthere should be a file called arm in there12:21
aaron_liubinfmt_misc on /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc type binfmt_misc (rw,noexec,nosuid,nodev)12:23
aaron_liuwhen i mount12:23
aaron_liubinfmt_misc on /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc type binfmt_misc (rw,noexec,nosuid,nodev)12:23
aaron_liuright ?12:23
ogra_cmpc<ogra_cmpc> also have a look at /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc/12:23
ogra_cmpc<ogra_cmpc> there should be a file called arm in there12:23
ogra_cmpclook in the directory12:24
aaron_liuroot@aaron-ubuntu:~# ls /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc/12:25
aaron_liuarm  cli  python2.4  python2.5  python2.6  register  status12:25
ogra_cmpclool, oh, looking at that in lucid i seem to have founda bug :) the binfmt handler for armel points to qemu-arm-static instead of qemu-armeb-static :)12:26
ogra_cmpcthe binfmt handler for armeb i mean12:26
ogra_cmpcaaron_liu, that looks good12:26
persiaogra_cmpc: Um, everything looks right to me.  Are you sure?12:26
ogra_cmpcogra@osiris:~$ cat /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc/qemu-armeb|grep interpreter12:27
ogra_cmpcinterpreter /usr/bin/qemu-arm-static12:27
persiaOh, indeed.12:28
ogra_cmpcpersia, given that lool enabled a specific qemu-armeb-static binary build i'd expect the binfmt handler to use it :)12:28
persiaThat package has had *lots* of uploads recently.  Just do it again :)12:28
* persia needs to update mk-sbuild and pbuilder-dist now12:29
ogra_cmpci doubt most of the handlers work though12:29
ogra_cmpcppc might with luck ...12:29
persiaSo what?12:29
ogra_cmpci wouldnt rely on them12:29
persiaThe important bit isn't whether they work, but whether the interfaces are sane.12:29
ogra_cmpcarmel is the only tested one atm12:29
persiaI don't intend to do so.12:30
persiaBut I'd rather unpack the special-case stuff.12:30
ogra_cmpcah, i thought you wanted to make the builder tools point to them12:30
persiaI did.12:30
persiaStill do, actually.12:30
persiaOr rather, I want to not special-case arm in the tools.12:30
* ogra_cmpc still tries to track down the qemu hang12:31
persialool: When you have a chance, could you share your strategy?  I'd be happy to help with various bits, but don't want to duplicate work.12:31
ogra_cmpci dont get why it doesnt happen in karmic12:31
ogra_cmpci use the karmic qemu-system-arm binary and my old qemu kernel now ...12:32
ogra_cmpcbut it still hangs12:32
* ogra_cmpc replaces qemu-img with dd now12:32
aaron_liuroot@aaron-ubuntu:~# cat /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc/qemu-armeb|grep interpreter12:40
aaron_liucat: /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc/qemu-armeb: No such file or directory12:40
aaron_liuarm  cli  python2.4  python2.5  python2.6  register  status in the /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc dir12:41
aaron_liuls /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc12:42
aaron_liuarm  cli  python2.4  python2.5  python2.6  register  status12:42
ogra_cmpcaaron_liu, yes i was not talking to lool about lucid, you rin karmic there only the arm binfmt hook exists12:43
persiaaaron_liu: qemu-armeb is brand new: you only care about /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc/arm12:43
ogra_cmpchrm, dd didnt help either, i dont get what else could be wrong13:28
loologra_cmpc, persia: I copied the other binfmts from Debian; it might be a bug I copied over (armeb versus arm)13:37
loolpersia: Strategy on which part?  I also would like to remove arm-specific handling13:37
loolpersia: I had in mind to rename build-arm-chroot to build-qemu-chroot or something along these lines; perhaps qemu-debootstrap13:37
loolI started some wiki pages, but these are too rough at the moment, I was too busy to finish them last week13:38
loolLaibsch: heya13:39
loolLaibsch: Thanks for your emails; will check it out13:40
LaibschI have a few stupid questions13:40
LaibschIs armv4, armv5, etc. akin to i386, i486, i586, etc?13:40
loolKind of13:41
loolIt's usually more complex than that because there are sub-ISAs associated with armvN families13:41
LaibschIt's a big mess13:41
loolFor instance armv5 only comes in Thumb flavors13:41
loolAnd then Thumb itself was extended multiple times13:41
Laibschand I so far successfully avoided to understand it13:41
looland on an orthogonal scale, you have the FPU ISA; 387 or SSE for Intel, and either a lot of old stuff on ARM or VFP with associated versions13:42
looland optional NEON or other VFP extensions13:42
LaibschOK, so it's not linear like in the Intel case, but lots of different things that may or may not be supported (with the later CPUs generally supporting more, of course)13:43
loolThere are some "implications" in the case of intel code as well, but it's more backwards compatible than arm is13:43
LaibschI guess that is sufficient for me for now as far as the CPU variations are concerned13:44
Laibschwhat determines the minimum level of CPU support a binary needs?  Is that a flag given to gcc, determined by the host on which it runs or something else entirely?13:44
ogra_cmpclool, ++ on qemu-debootstrap ...13:44
loolLaibsch: You mean at build time?13:45
Laibschwell, both13:45
Laibschfor example, can a very recent arm cpu output armv4 code?13:45
loolLaibsch: It's mostly the flags you pass to gcc, but it can also be what binaries you combine together13:45
Laibschcan I force it to output armv4?13:45
loolLaibsch: hardware has nothing to do with build output13:46
Laibschso, it's got nothing to do with the compile host13:46
loolSince you can cross-compile arm from i38613:46
LaibschOK, good13:46
LaibschWell, I want to avoid cross-compilation13:46
persialool: I like the qemu-debootstrap name.13:46
LaibschI want to use all the debian-goodies out there13:46
Laibschthat are generally not cross-compile-aware13:47
loolLaibsch: If you're running a Debian or Ubuntu armel userspace, it might be able to output binaries using a different target architecture than what Debian or Ubuntu targets, but you have to keep in mind that your binary might get linked to stuff such as libgcc or of course runtime libs such as libc13:48
persialool: Do you need help with qemu-debootstrap, or are you already making progress there?  The pbuilder-dist and mk-sbuild changes I'm confident about doing myself.  qemu-debootstrap needs a complete rewrite of build-arm-chroot (proper options handling for one).13:48
loolIn which case you need to rebuild these13:48
loolpersia: I can do it I guess13:48
Laibschlool: that's kind of the idea13:49
LaibschI understand Ubuntu does not support older arm CPU13:49
LaibschThe devices I currently own are all armv5te max13:49
persialool: Up to you.  I don't mind doing it if you've got other stuff (as you've already done most of the heavy lifting)13:49
persiaogra_cmpc: Do you care about the contents of qemu-debootstrap as long as it's call-compatible for rootstock?13:50
* ogra_cmpc wonders what else to look for to track down the hang ... i ruled out qemu-system-arm, the kernel, qemu-img13:50
Laibschlool: I intend to compile the binaries elsewhere and then work out the kinks you mentioned (although I will likely hit more than enough bumps where I have no idea how to smooth them out)13:51
ogra_cmpcpersia, rootstock doesnt even use the script :)13:51
persiaogra_cmpc: Oh.  Didn't it used to do that?13:51
ogra_cmpcit still does a debootstrap --foreign ... all it uses is qemu-arm-ststic to chroot into the rootfs for the second stage run13:51
persiaAha.  Then you don't care at all.13:52
ogra_cmpcpersia, no, because there is no qemu-arm-static in jaunty13:52
ogra_cmpcin jaunhty it does the second stage in a VM13:52
ogra_cmpcwhich is horribly slow13:52
persialool: I should have time to work on this on Tuesday, so I'll take a swing if you haven't first.  I want to get the updates to u-d-t in before betafreeze.13:52
* ogra_cmpc just had a weird idea13:59
ogra_cmpci wonder if it would work to run a VM, export proc through nbd and mount that inside a chroot14:00
ogra_cmpchmm, i suspect /proc/self etc wouldnt work14:10
Laibschhttp://ograblog.wordpress.com/2009/07/18/juggling-your-arms-in-karmic-and-no-more-excuses/ I hope this does what I've been looking for14:10
LaibscheFfeM1: that may be interesting for your as well ^^^14:10
ogra_cmpcLaibsch, works for everything but mono stuff14:11
Laibschfirst thing I want to test is scim/uim/ibus14:12
Laibschthen anki ;-)14:12
Laibschif I go wild, I'll have a look at compiling opie14:12
Laibschbut basically, it's more about getting used to ubuntu-arm14:13
Laibschneed to get my feet wet14:13
aaron_liudoes i need the cross-compile14:15
aaron_liufor build the rootstock ?14:15
aaron_liudoes i need the cross-compile for build the rootstock ?14:15
aaron_liuno need ?14:16
aaron_liuright ? this time ?14:16
ogra_cmpclooks like its downloading packages in the VM14:17
aaron_liubut how long it would be14:17
ogra_cmpcjust wait, it takes a while14:19
aaron_liuthank for ur kind and help14:19
ogra_cmpcyoure welcome14:19
aaron_liuogra_cmpc witch  chip u used14:23
aaron_liuogra_cmpc witch  arm chip u used14:23
ogra_cmpcfreescale imx51 and marvell dove ... i also have an old begleboard14:23
aaron_liuI use th tcc890014:24
aaron_liui down't know if can runs14:25
aaron_liui down't know if it can runs14:25
ogra_cmpcit can run karmic (9.10) but not lucid (10.04)14:26
aaron_liuwhat 's it take room of ur ubuntu-os for arm14:28
aaron_liuwith chromium ?14:29
ogra_cmpcthat really depends what kind of desktop you run14:29
aaron_liui think it need 4G flash at least14:29
aaron_liui just want to run smallest sys14:29
ogra_cmpci think with LXDE you can run in around 1G14:29
ogra_cmpcprobably 2G14:30
ogra_cmpcnever tried it14:30
aaron_liuit's include the x-11 it takes to much room14:30
ogra_cmpcX should only take 1-200MB14:31
aaron_liuit's include the x-11 it takes too much room,and if who port the chromium browser to the gtk+dfb,i think it so great challage14:32
loolpersia: First pass http://paste.ubuntu.com/390382/14:34
loolUntested yet14:34
ogra_cmpclool, why die if you dont need qemu, just switch silently to std debootstrap14:37
loologra_cmpc: Just not implemented yet14:37
loolIn particular, this should also reject biarch; using qemu-i386 isn't a good idea on amd6414:38
ogra_cmpcheh, yeah14:39
aaron_liuwhat's the difference between lucid with  Karmic ?14:41
lool6 months14:42
aaron_liuwhat's the difference between lucid with  Karmic ?i am  beganner of ubuntu14:42
aaron_liuwho can tell me the difference14:44
eFfeM1Laibsch: thanks for the link14:45
loolLaibsch: Usually you don't reuse the toolchain to do rebuilds but use a different one unless you're just changing feature flags of the toolchain; if you're going to rebuild for another arch, it's best to rebuild the toolchain (it's part of the list of packages anyway, and you want to make sure that the rebuilt packages are using the new toolchain)14:48
ogra_cmpclool, so, my hang seems to be related to imagesize ... if i use 1G all the unpacking gets through, if i use something like 4G i get the hang, do you know if there is any limitation in qemu causing that ?14:49
Laibschlool: hm, you kind of lost me here.14:49
loologra_cmpc: You could try using a 4G image with a small block size14:50
LaibschWhat I'm trying to do is get something set up so that I can compile packages from the debian archives for use on an arm device14:50
loolLaibsch: For instance if you rebuild with e.g. --no-stack-protector, you don't need to rebuild the toolchain first (I think)14:51
LaibschIf I can get something to run on my spitz that would be great but it is my understanding that is currently being phased out (I certainly hope it will be phased back in)14:51
ogra_cmpclool, hmm do you think qemu-img makes any difference in blocksizes based on imagesize ?14:51
aaron_liuGet 415 :......14:51
aaron_liuhow many pkgs to download14:51
loologra_cmpc: qemu-img no, but mkfs.ext[234] change block size depending on the image size14:51
ogra_cmpclool, oooh !14:51
* ogra_cmpc never thought of that14:52
loolLaibsch: Probably the script which I'm working on would give you the proper local setup for qemu syscall emulation14:52
ogra_cmpcaaron_liu, it should have told you somewhere up in the lig14:52
loolLaibsch, persia: http://paste.ubuntu.com/390390/ qemu-debootstrap take 2; finishes a bootstrap here14:52
Laibschlool: I assume I'd want to do that if my target device did not have the stack protector.  I don't know, really.  I just know the device I have.  The good thing in OE is that there are machine configurations where still information is listed centrally.  Would something like this be possible for ubuntu-arm?14:52
loolLaibsch: stack-protector is a toolchain feature, not a hardware one14:53
Laibschmy head is spinning14:53
LaibschOE was good at hiding that kind of complexity14:53
LaibschI never had to bother14:53
loolLaibsch: I guess it would make sense to have a db of machine <-> features somewhere, but usually we expect hackers doing archive rebuilds for a target device to know it by heart anyway14:53
loolLaibsch: So e.g. if you're targetting a N810, you should know it's v6 + vfp14:54
LaibschI wouldn't ;-)14:54
loolLaibsch: I think you're correct that it's going to become an improper assumption14:54
loolLaibsch: We should aim at hiding this away14:54
Laibschover time, yes14:54
loolLaibsch: Do you have fast connectivity?14:54
Laibscheventually it would be good to "dumb it down" so that even stupid people like me can use it ;-)14:55
Laibschlool: depends on your definition of fast.  When I am in Asia, I usually have 100MBit, but then it's more a problem of latency (really annoying).  Over here, I have a few MBit down.  Not really that fast by today's standards.  Why?14:56
ogra_cmpcLaibsch, stay in asia then ... germany is to cold anyway :)14:57
loolLaibsch: if you want to create an armel chroot as discussed on the link you mentionned earlier, that's relevant14:57
loolOk; script appears to work; now need to finish the biarch stuff14:57
aaron_liuwho knows the irc channal of chromium-browser-arm14:57
Laibschogra_cmpc: Asia is not as cold when you look on the thermometer, but inside the poorly insulated houses it's freezing.  Summer and winter are more agreeable in Europe, me thinks, and thus spend them here.14:57
ogra_cmpcLaibsch, if you create chroots/images more often, use an apt proxy14:58
* Laibsch already does14:58
ogra_cmpcright, then lool's question is not as important :)14:58
loolHe still has to fetch them a first time!14:58
aaron_liui'am in asia14:59
LaibschI'm patient ;-)14:59
aaron_liuso cool in this days14:59
Laibschfaster is of course better.  but my connection here is not that slow as to be unusable.14:59
aaron_liuso cool in this days in asia area14:59
Laibschaaron_liu: let me try to cheer you up.  We frequently had -20° this winter15:00
Laibschand just yesterday we had 25 cm of fresh snow15:00
aaron_liuchree up15:00
aaron_liuwhere r u15:01
Laibschlool: I also have access to a build host in a data center.  that machine has 100MBit as well.  and is much faster CPU as well.15:01
Laibschaaron_liu: pretty much right in the middle of .de15:01
aaron_liuwecome to shanghai china15:02
aaron_liui never go aboard , no chance15:03
ogra_cmpcLaibsch, where do you sit atm ?15:03
ogra_cmpc<-- Kassel15:03
Laibschon a chair ;-)15:03
Laibschogra_cmpc: a little further west15:03
aaron_liuit's night this time in the shanghai15:03
Laibschabout an hour's drive15:03
ogra_cmpcah, like solingen etc15:04
Laibschlool:     log "W:" "$0 is deprecated, please use qemu-debootstrap"15:04
Laibschshould I rather use qemu-debootstrap?15:05
aaron_liuwhat's time in ur location15:05
aaron_liuhere is 23:0515:05
ogra_cmpcLaibsch, its just a warning15:05
aaron_liuogra_cmpc  but where r u15:05
Laibschbut while I'm starting I may as well use the latest tools15:06
ogra_cmpcbut the plan is to make build-arm-chroot arch independent15:06
aaron_liude have many time zone ?15:06
ogra_cmpcwhich means it will be renamed to qemu-debootstrap15:06
ogra_cmpcaaron_liu, nope, just one15:06
loolLaibsch: Not sure what you mean15:06
loolLaibsch: It's only when the script is symlinked as build-arm-chroot that the deprecation warning will be printed15:07
ogra_cmpcor if you saved it as build-arm-chroot :)15:07
Laibschyes, but I was wondering if qemu-debootstrap was preferred over that script15:08
loolLaibsch: That script is qemu-debootstrap15:08
Laibschmaybe s/use/rename\ this\ script\ to/ ?15:08
ogra_cmpcit will be in a package in the end15:09
ogra_cmpcusers shouldnt rename package content15:09
ogra_cmpcthe old name was build-arm-chroot ... the proof of concept stuff i created in karmic is now being generalized by lool to be less hackish and arch independent15:10
aaron_liucanada have a place with the name  Hope same with urs15:10
* ogra_cmpc likes to do a lot of hardcoding ... lool prefers stuff to have tons of switches 15:11
ogra_cmpcmy hardcoding isnt so good for generalizing usually :)15:11
loologra_cmpc: Actually I hate switched too, but I hate hardcoding more than switches15:12
ogra_cmpcheh, yeah15:12
ogra_cmpchardcoding is good for quick shots and proof of concept stuff though15:13
Laibschwill there currently be any tangible benefits for me if I use lool's script instead of ogra's scipt (which I understand is packaged in the repo) to compile for arm?15:14
loolLaibsch: Probably no difference for armel, no15:14
loolLaibsch: but it would help me testing it15:14
ogra_cmpcjust that you need to learn the new name soon :)15:14
LaibschI will gladly do that15:14
LaibschI take that as you soliciting feedback15:15
LaibschYou got yourself the dumbest person on the planet to do your testing15:15
LaibschI guess that may be a good thing in this case ;-)15:15
aaron_liumy hardware board will come tomorrow, i will debug the board ,hope without a hitch15:15
aaron_liuin the chat room ,who have debug the ddr2 board ,and give me some suggestion15:17
Laibschlool: http://paste.debian.net/62940/  I did take a look at the script (which I guess won't happen so frequently once it's packaged) but it's really unclear to me how to use it.15:17
LaibschI guess I may need to set deb_arch or arch or both15:18
LaibschOr maybe something more15:18
loolOk this is what I intend to upload http://paste.ubuntu.com/390405/15:18
ogra_cmpcsudo qemu-sebootstrap --arch armel <dist> <path to chroot> <mirror>15:18
loolhas basic bi-arch support15:18
ogra_cmpcLaibsch, the debootstrap docs should apply15:19
loolLaibsch: The new version would work in your case, but it would create a chroot of the same arch as yours15:19
loolLaibsch: You need to tell it "armel" at some point15:19
LaibschWill you be uploading this script now?15:20
LaibschI'd prefer that over manually copying your latest changes every time15:20
loolLaibsch: I will be uploading it now, but it will need to build on your arch before you get it from the archive, will take some hours15:20
Laibschno problem15:20
Laibschwhat's the name of the package?15:21
ogra_cmpclool, looks good to me15:21
ogra_cmpcLaibsch, qemu-arm-static or qemu-kvm-extras-static15:22
LaibschOh, so it's an update to the currently available packages?15:22
Laibschthat's even better15:22
* ogra_cmpc cant get used to the new name15:22
LaibschI already have those installed15:22
LaibschI agree15:23
Laibschbut it's not only arm anymore, right?15:23
Laibschthen it makes sense15:23
LaibschDid anybody ever use those scripts with pbuilder?15:23
ogra_cmpci'm specifically unhappy about having kvm in the packagename15:23
loolLaibsch: Exactly, it would work for e.g. ppc15:24
* lool should test ppc15:24
ogra_cmpcLaibsch, persia works on the pbuilder stuff based on this15:24
Laibschcan't wait15:24
aaron_liui must go to sleep or i would be late for tomorrow working15:25
Laibschgood night!15:26
ogra_cmpcand good luck with your chromium hacking15:26
loolI should have tested native builds before uploading; bah15:26
aaron_liugood Morning15:27
LaibschCan I get debootstrap to use an apt-cache?  I looked at the man page but I only see the option to specify a mirror.  Or will debootstrap use the same settings as for the host?15:27
loolLaibsch: http_proxy is picked up by default unless you filter it15:27
ogra_cmpcLaibsch, just yse mirror15:27
loolLaibsch: a mirror can be specified on the cmdline15:27
loolthird argument15:27
Laibschbut it's really not an http_proxy15:28
Laibschnor is it a mirror15:28
loolLaibsch: what is it?15:28
LaibschEven though both should work15:28
loola pool of .debs?15:28
LaibschI use apt-cacher-ng15:28
Laibschboth approaches should work15:28
loolLaibsch: It's a proxy then15:28
lool(at least I think it is, I don't actually use apt-cacher-ng)15:28
ogra_cmpcsudo qemu-debootstrap --arch armel lucid lucid-chroot
ogra_cmpcLaibsch, ^^^ thats what i use here15:28
Laibschyes, as I said, both approaches will work15:29
ogra_cmpcthe ip is my wlan0 on my laptop15:29
LaibschI want an unaltered sources.list15:29
loolLaibsch: fix it after the build15:30
ogra_cmpcdebootstrap doesnt create a sources.list15:30
LaibschAnd apt-cacher-ng is not an http proxy in the strict sense15:30
loologra_cmpc: Hmm I think it does now15:30
ogra_cmpcerr ... it does15:30
Laibschhttp://paste.debian.net/62945/ is my /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/proxy15:31
LaibschI'd like to have that the same in the debootstrap15:31
Laibschbut it's not a big deal15:31
ogra_cmpcjust cp it after creating the chroot :)15:32
loolLaibsch: It does act as a proxy; it's configured as your APT http proxy; anyway, apparently anything works, so don't worry15:32
Laibschthanks, guys15:32
aaroni come back15:33
aaronroot@aaron-ubuntu:/# du -s /tmp/tmp.Vbz1uwY5yt/15:33
aaronstill 1138632 /tmp/tmp.Vbz1uwY5yt/15:34
ogra_cmpcdid rootstock finish already ?15:34
aaronbut building database of manual pages15:35
aaronjust setting up..........15:35
ogra_cmpcyeah, give it time, it takes long ... since it runs in a virtual machine15:35
aaronok, i go to sleep again15:36
ogra_cmpcit only emulates a 200MHz ARM dont espect it to be fast :)15:37
Laibschogra_cmpc: what's the non-masked URL to ubuntu-ports?15:39
LaibschI see15:40
ogra_cmpc(non ports use /ubuntu)15:41
Laibschwhich leads to the question of "what is a port"?15:45
loolLaibsch: It's just an arbitrary separation to not pollute the main arcihve/publisher15:46
Laibschmakes sense15:46
looleverything except i386 is technically a port, even amd64, but we usually refer to ports as in the arches which are on ports.u.c15:46
loolapparently, qemu-ppc is much slower than qemu-arm15:48
ogra_cmpclool, i talked to vargrant about it, he said ppc only works on a daily base with a lot of luck15:48
ogra_cmpcin debian at least15:48
loolI'm just speaking of the emulation15:49
loolThe chroot creation is taking much longer in the configuring packages state15:49
ogra_cmpcwell, you are lucky if it finishes at all is what i mean15:49
loolIt just finished15:49
ogra_cmpcgreat !15:49
ogra_cmpche wasnt that confident15:49
loolroot@bee:/# dpkg --print-architecture15:49
loolroot@bee:/# lsb_release -cs15:50
loolstuff works15:50
loolnow I can trash it I guess15:50
ogra_cmpci'll tell him to throw away these debian packages and use ubuntus instead :P15:50
Laibschlool: I have installed the lucid qemu-kvm-extras-static package.  To help test your script, there's basically nothing left to do then the usual update routine and continue to run the build-arm-chroot script, right?15:52
ogra_cmpcat some point it will tell you its deprecated15:52
ogra_cmpcthen swiatch to qemu-debootstrap15:52
LaibschI guess I can do that now ;-)15:53
Laibschqemu-debootstrap does not have a way to configure it with a dotfile, does it?  I loathe those long command-lines, too easy to mess up15:54
ogra_cmpci dont think so ...15:54
ogra_cmpcpatchews accepted i guess :)15:55
loolLaibsch: You can use an alias or a wrapper if you don't want to remember the flags; pretty much everything is a variable though: arch, target, distro15:55
LaibschI should probably do that15:56
loolLaibsch: I don't like dotfiles for "pure" tools15:56
loole.g. you don't have a dotfile for cp or expr, they just take their input and produce expected results15:56
ogra_cmpcyou usually dont use a ton of options for cp or expr15:57
loolif you add a dotfile, you add a point where it might break, a compatibility interface to maintain, another thing to document etc.15:57
LaibschI have another thought15:57
* lool doesn't use a ton of options for debootstrap, I type the cmdline entirely every time15:57
* ogra_cmpc too, but i can understand if people find it hard and would like a config file instead15:58
loolLaibsch: You can have a higher level tool such as pbuilder pass the right args for you though15:58
Laibschthat would work15:59
Laibschlet's see when the pbuilder stuff arrives15:59
loolYou dont actually need any pbuilder stuff15:59
loolBut there's a wrapper which will help pass the proper pbuilder opts16:00
LaibschI was thinking that postinst of the package may create a bunch of hardlinks named build-$arch-chroot16:00
loolLaibsch: Would pollute the namespace a lot16:00
Laibschthat's the intention ;-)16:01
loolI could argue we need a build-karmic-chroot and a build-lucid-chroot command too, and there would be no end of combinations   ;-)16:01
LaibschI'm sure ogra_cmp would like it ;-)16:01
Laibschyes, I just find the releases easier to remember16:01
Laibschbut as soon as you have a matrix of combinations you're better of with a config file :-P16:02
Laibschbetter off16:02
LaibschOK, next try16:02
Laibschhow about bash-completion?16:02
loolLaibsch: feel free; bash-completion for debootstrap and qemu-debootstrap would be nice16:03
Laibschif the package shipped some information for bash-completion, I'd be happy and shut up16:03
loolLaibsch: These are really low-level tools IMO16:03
LaibschI've never actually made a patch for that16:03
loolLaibsch: I'd rather encourage you to fix this when you have a higher level "build image for board foo" tool16:03
ogra_cmpcLaibsch, you are right, i would like it ...16:03
Laibschbut should be reasonably easy to do16:03
loolLaibsch: I personally use zsh BTW   :-)16:03
ogra_cmpcbut i argued with lool to often about it already :) he does the work so he may do the dedcisions :)16:04
Laibschyou won't profit, then16:04
Laibschlool: I agree and I'll wait for the higher level tools16:04
LaibschI never really call debootstrap on the command line16:04
LaibschIf I do, I would not mind looking at the manpage16:05
Laibschwhen I do16:05
Laibschbut stuff I call very often (and I thought I was going to need to call this script very often) I want to be easy to use16:05
Laibschlool: when do you expect the "build image for board foo" tool?16:06
ogra_cmpcLaibsch, rootstock will grow it for lucid+116:07
ogra_cmpcthats already planned16:07
Laibschwhen should we see prereleases?16:07
ogra_cmpcrootstock is already available16:07
Laibschwhat's rootstock anyway?16:08
ogra_cmpcjust misses the plugin system that will enable per-board profiles16:08
ogra_cmpca rootfs builder16:08
ogra_cmpcit would be the tool you would use if you wanted to build a full rootfs thats completely configured ... so you just untar it to an arm device that has bootloader and kernel and are ready to go16:09
ogra_cmpcLaibsch, see the rootfs from scratch wikipage from the topic for more info16:12
ogra_cmpc(i think also its the tool we have the biggest community participation for atm, i'm pondering to make its improvement a summer of code project for an intrested student)16:17
ogra_cmpclool, what would you think about that ?16:18
loolI have three ideas which relate, but which don't really go in the rootstock direction16:19
ogra_cmpcthats sad since its adopted by so many people alredy16:19
ogra_cmpcwhy not just improve it16:19
loolI personally think it would be worthwhile to enable armel in vm-builder; vm-builder is widely adopted and will be maintained by the server team; vm-builder is extensible and I'm sure we could come up with per-board plugins16:20
ogra_cmpci still dont see vm-builder as the right tool16:20
loolI also believe we need to think longer term and invest in a tool to build images after the debootstrap part, I have some ideas about that but it's too early to mention them here16:20
ogra_cmpcbut i guess we'll disagree on that part forever16:20
looland the third bit is that I think we should couple the second tool with a hosted workflow allowing to request image builds remotely16:20
ogra_cmpclool, but i'd like us to coordinate the efforts before we drift away in different directions here16:23
loologra_cmpc: I think vm-builder is a nice immediate consolidation point16:25
ogra_cmpci dont think so ... my first criticism point wont ever be solved16:26
ogra_cmpcits not shell16:26
loolIt wont be solved no, I'm not sure it's a drawback though16:26
ogra_cmpcrootstock gets so much particiaption from the outside because even a beginner can understand the code and commit a fix very easily16:26
loolIt allows offering a python API for instance16:27
ogra_cmpci agree that its definately better for gui integration etc16:27
loolLet's agree to disagree16:27
ogra_cmpcyeah :)16:27
ogra_cmpcsigh so the '-T small' option for mkfs.ext3 doesnt fix the hang16:35
* ogra_cmpc tries to just set the blocksize16:38
ogra_cmpclool, whats the biggest image you have used yet with lucid qemu ?16:41
ogra_cmpcin armel emulation indeed16:41
Laibschlool: http://paste.debian.net/62953/  qemu-bootstrap fails17:15
loologra_cmpc: Sorry, I'm not sure19:30
loolLaibsch: That's interesting; could you run that command?19:31
loolLaibsch: chroot lucid-armel-chroot dpkg --force-depends --install /var/cache/apt/archives/base-files_5.0.0ubuntu10_armel.deb /var/cache/apt/archives/base-passwd_3.5.22_armel.deb19:31
loolor s#dpkg#/usr/bin/dpkg#19:31
Laibschlool: http://paste.debian.net/62992/  dependency problem?19:33
Laibschthere is no awk package in /var/cache/apt/archives/19:35
Laibschsame for gawk19:36
loolLaibsch: Could you run chroot lucid-armel-chroot /debootstrap/debootstrap --debug --second-stage ?19:49
loolLaibsch: mawk should have been unpacked by debootstrap19:50
lool(not by dpkg though)19:50
looloh that's just a warning19:50
loolLaibsch: Your problem is dpkg: ../../src/archives.c:754: tarobject: Assertion `r == stab.st_size' failed.19:50
loolLaibsch: That's the same bug I reported19:50
loolLaibsch: Just create the chroot outside of home directory19:50
loolLaibsch: It's an ecryptfs bug exposed by recent changes to dpkg19:50
LaibschI see19:50
loolbug #52491919:51
ubot4`Launchpad bug 524919 in linux (Ubuntu Lucid) (and 4 other projects) "ecryptfs breaks lstat/readlink size assumption (affects: 1)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/52491919:51
LaibschI'm restarting in /usr/src19:51
Laibschthat was successful20:13
=== Laibsch1 is now known as Laibsch

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