[00:58] <persia> ScottL: I think we can get a freeze exception if we do it soon.  I don't have any guidance on artistic direction.  I think we have to get it right before we apply for the exception.  I also think we need to get the exception *before* 11th March, or it gets harder.
[03:26] <ScottL_> persia, after reading the UIFreeze documentation I feel better about where we are, but we still need to get GDM and desktop wallpaper squared away
[03:28] <ScottL_> since the things for which we are asking for the exception do not require translation or documentation then I guess it will be easier
[03:29] <ScottL_> re: plymouth - since there hasn't really been any opinions on the examples I made then I will focus on the plymouth theme that resembles the previous Usplash
[03:30] <persia> I thought I saw some ML traffic.
[03:30] <persia> But at this point, I think we just need something.  Getting it perfect can wait.
[03:35] <ScottL_> only one person really offered an opinion about the splash
[03:36] <persia> Indeed.  Unless there's some reason to believe otherwise, I suggest that if you take silence as assent, you'll get more done :)
[03:37] <ScottL_> LOL...heh, or apathy I suppose instead of assent, either way I want to make some adjustments to text/icon sizes and their locations
[03:38] <ScottL_> kinda wish I had the new ubuntu font to see what it would look like (and see how I could twist it instead something different)
[03:39] <ScottL_> next cycle I plan to be more on top of what is required and when so that we are a little more prepared
[03:39] <persia> It doesn't exist yet.  You might ask in #ubuntu-artwork if anyone has the letters you're missing done.
[03:40] <persia> Asking during the week is likely to get a better response.
[03:40] <ScottL_> eh, i thought mark's blog said some important fontologist was commissioned to do it (sort of implied like it was already done)
[03:45] <ScottL_> persia, is it worth taking the other plymouth themes that I have made, making tarball of them, and putting them on the wiki?
[03:45] <persia> I don't think so :)
[03:46] <persia> Might be useful if you were working with others to compare, etc.
[03:46] <persia> But since there don't seem to be a lot of others, I don't see the point.
[03:46] <persia> Also, for collaboration for code, rather than graphics, something like bzr might be better.
[03:47] <ScottL_> oh, I thought maybe for future reference on later releases (kinda like a scrap book for inspiration)
[03:47] <persia> Could do.  Putting stuff on the internet is generally better than leaving it on one's local machine.
[03:48] <persia> But I still think bzr is likely a better place, rather than a tarball in the wiki.
[03:48] <persia> At least as I understand it, most of a plymouth theme is code, rather than binary blobs.
[03:48] <ScottL_> yeah, your right about code - I could always make my own bzr branch, i've wanted to learn about it but it can come later, i've enough things to keep me busy for a while
[03:48] <ScottL_> yeah, it is...vast improvement from Usplash in that regard - no reall compiling
[03:49] <ScottL_> i don't understand how it works at this point because you are using png files (unless png are already code)
[03:50]  * ScottL_ does a quick wikipedia search on png now
[03:50] <persia> png aren't code, but png can be loaded from code.
[03:50] <persia> or embedded in code.
[03:53] <ScottL_> ah, good (and png on wikipedia was too much to read right now)
[03:53] <persia> heh
[03:54] <ScottL_> hey, any idea on the direction of ubuntu studio with cory gone, luke leaving and luis effectively gone?
[04:00] <persia> I don't have any, personally.
[04:00] <ScottL_> hi troy_s , good post on your blog and very clean, crisp new theme also :)
[04:00] <persia> I've always enjoyed working with studio, but more because I care about the audio production applications than because I care about studio, as such.
[04:00] <troy_s> ScottL_: LOL. I have no clue what those things mean.
[04:01] <persia> I know a fair bit about flavours, and can help with that stuff too, but someone needs to stand up and provide direction, if there is to be some.
[04:01] <troy_s> ScottL_: It's great getting called a douche though. Then I realized I should likely qualify what a douche means to the foreign folks.
[04:01] <ScottL_> troy_s, LOL...there's a corollary there - if you're not called a douche, you're not doing something right
[04:02] <troy_s> ScottL_: Well a huge part of me actually doesn't like the whole "label people as troll and throw out their comment blah blah'
[04:02] <troy_s> ScottL_: It's an education issue methinks.
[04:02] <troy_s> mehopes.
[04:03] <troy_s> ScottL_: There are way too many smart people around to think that, after laying the various complexities out on the table, won't get it. At least that has been my experience. It seems the tides turn slightly.
[04:03] <ScottL_> persia, maybe i'm asking too much but I hope stochastic can provide some direction, I'll certainly do what I can to support it
[04:04] <ScottL_> troy_s, I have to admit even though I'm not a stupid person you are just too well read and versed in art and graphics for me to understand everything that you write
[04:05] <ScottL_> troy_s, it's like reading 1984 (the novel, nineteen eighty-four if you like), each time I reread it I see (or understand) something I didn't before
[04:05] <troy_s> ScottL_: Ugh. That means it is fail. 
[04:05] <ScottL_> troy_s, i'm not a visual kind of guy...well, in an artsy way
[04:05] <troy_s> ScottL_: It's all pretty basic stuff, but I likely muddy it up with old habits.
[04:06] <troy_s> ScottL_: Bah. Rubbish. That's part of the whole point. The _average_ viewership is extremely adept at spotting westernized language.
[04:06] <troy_s> ScottL_: You may not know what Phi is, but the Renaissance was _SO_ huge that you can likely point to it on paper if I said 'where is it?'
[04:07] <troy_s> ScottL_: And _that_ is the point. It is a language. It has an implied audience. And it is used to communicate things to people. It certainly has new challenges for a culture that spans so many cultures. The whole 'ignore the audience like we are dealing with north america' is a different can of worms.
[04:07] <ScottL_> persia, I just hope the whole thing doesn't collapse upon itself in a pile from ennui
[04:08] <ScottL_> persia, I was talking to cory the other day and he mentioned that his opinion was that maybe studio should be packages added from PPA
[04:09] <ScottL_> troy_s, language is beautiful, i can not only appreciate its subtlety more as I age but I can please myself with my own subtlety more and more often
[04:10] <persia> ScottL_: I really don't see the point of using a PPA rather than the archives.  The main benefit of a PPA is that more people can upload, but with ArchiveReorg, if we get a few people who are good at uploading, we can grant them access to upload studio stuff in the main archives directly.
[04:10] <ScottL_> troy_s, and you are correct about the audience - too often people don't bridge that divide to unfamiliar audiences
[04:10] <persia> My worry about using a PPA is that it means that the rest of Ubuntu suffers.
[04:11]  * persia generally doesn't like PPAs because they don't foster collaboration
[04:11] <troy_s> ScottL_: Hrm. Do you worry about an audience outside of scope? I don't think we should. That's part of choosing an audience. God look at the fricking forum thread on the post.
[04:11] <troy_s> ScottL_: I was basically attacked for using language that I use.
[04:12] <troy_s> ScottL_: Which is fine, but the point one poster makes was "Well should he 'dumb down' the language so it translates better?"
[04:12] <troy_s> ScottL_: And then you get into words that don't translate at all. It's just a mess.
[04:12] <ScottL_> persia, his comment (i think) were driven by the kernel issue, the rigidity of the system stifles his desires at it were
[04:12] <troy_s> ScottL_: I resign myself to accepting I won't ever be able to read German comments without floundering through half baked translations at Google. So be it.
[04:12] <ScottL_> troy_s, or words that don't convey the correct meaning
[04:13] <troy_s> ScottL_: Tatazumai
[04:13] <ScottL_> troy_s, that's were I think language is beautiful, the choosing of the proper word
[04:13] <troy_s> ScottL_: Good luck figuring out what that one means.
[04:13] <persia> ScottL_: The rigidity of the system is an artifact of perception.  There's no reason we can't put anything we want in the main archive.  We haven't historically because nobody maintains it (including ourselves).  For a while, there was a "linux-rt" package in the archives, but it didn't get good updates.
[04:14] <ScottL_> troy_s, i was forced to find "otherling" on wikipedia
[04:14] <troy_s> ScottL_: That's a huge one.
[04:14] <troy_s> ScottL_: I always balked at it in fine arts school. But it just makes me aware as to how powerful it really is.
[04:15] <troy_s> ScottL_: We want inclusion, but you can't see the exclusion. You can assume it isn't there, but the means - the agency - might be so horribly broken that it can never be there.
[04:15] <persia> ScottL_: In more detail, the perception of the rigidity of the system stems from "us vs. them" thinking, rather than a holistic perception of the set of people contributing to the wider project.  There is no real hierarchy, nor any firm limits on what can be achieved.
[04:15] <troy_s> persia: Yer too fricking smart to really be around these parts.
[04:16]  * persia wishes humans were better at large-community thinking, but understands the biological impertivies inherent in the development of the limitations
[04:16] <persia> troy_s: I want to make the world a better place.  I think that having a free body of code that can be used for any purpose is part of that.  I think that Ubuntu has a better social model than Debian (when it works).  I don't know of a better place to try to achieve this (admittedly narrow) goal.
[04:17]  * ScottL_ thinks humans should read Jono's book then we would all thinking communitively
[04:17] <persia> Um, no.
[04:17] <persia> But it might help a little :)
[04:17] <ScottL_> i was kidding about that last bit
[04:17] <ScottL_> although I heard there was a drinking game involving his book, you drink everytime he wrote "community"
[04:19] <troy_s> ScottL_: Yeah. I'll pass on that Alex. ;)
[04:19] <ScottL_> troy_s, inclusion vs exclusion, yeah, i can see that
[04:19] <troy_s> ScottL_: It isn't easy to achieve inclusion.
[04:20] <troy_s> ScottL_: There is a fantastic vid at TED on things like that. You hope for freedom. But then you realize that a group of women formed a Bulimia support group to support people in their pursuit of Bulima and Anorexia. At some point, the absolutist belief in freedom butts into the reality of 'Wait a minute, that isn't healthy'
[04:21] <ScottL_> i like Jono though and am impressed not only by his taste in music but also that he published his book under CC
[04:22] <troy_s> ScottL_: And practically speaking, by failing to address an audience you are othering implicitly.
[04:23] <ScottL_> rereading persia's comment to troy_s - "I want to make the world a better place"
[04:23] <ScottL_> i can't really say explicitely why I am helping ubuntu studio, there are so many reasons but not a primary one
[04:24] <ScottL_> i'm geeky and I dig this stuff (I use AutoCAD at work and I still type most commands rather than pick a button or find the menu - translates well to CLI)
[04:24] <persia> Well, from a marketing perspective, the concept of audience definition typically inherently creates separation: they key is to always define audience positively, e.g. people who like cats and other people vs. people who don't dislike cats
[04:24] <troy_s> persia: Absolutely.
[04:25] <ScottL_> I like helping, I like organizing things, I like effecting
[04:25] <troy_s> persia: But the more worrying part is that by _avoiding_ to deal with the issue of audience, you create a half baked illusion that you aren't excluding. Which again, begs othering.
[04:25] <ScottL_> so basically what I'm saying is that this is all about me apparently
[04:25] <troy_s> ScottL_: LOL
[04:25] <persia> troy_s: Indeed.  Such is the power of propaganda.
[04:26]  * persia really likes propaganda, and studied it at uni some : it's an incredibly powerful tool
[04:26] <ScottL_> but I really dig the fact that these things are soo available to anyone (things = audio apps) and want to make sure that it continues
[04:26] <troy_s> persia: Personally, I am wondering that either you say 'OK this is bland because we are going to make it neutral for everyone" is better than sort of half baked attempts to add some sort of weak style to things (specifically talking about Lucid)
[04:26] <troy_s> persia: Just make the fricking thing middle grey and be done with it.
[04:26] <persia> Simply by failing to define the axioms of one's argument, one can draw a single conclusion that people believe to be correct even when they have different base axioms, simply because they assume you think as they do.
[04:27] <troy_s> ScottL_: That's where you can have a pretty interesting impact in a Lessig sense.
[04:27] <ScottL_> I've read quite a bit about WWII, Germany mainly, reading some Russian history now - now, that was some propoganda
[04:27] <troy_s> persia: Bingo.
[04:27] <persia> troy_s: I disagree.  I think the solution is to define the points of differentiation, create a template that allows both to coexist well, and encourage the strongest believers in each to help keep their model working.
[04:27] <troy_s> persia: I believe that was the whole fatal flaw with the original path - everyone took the meaning, warped it to their own reality, and then wondered why Ubuntu never actually outwardly showed what was in their heads.
[04:28] <persia> troy_s: That forces the apparently competing groups to cooperate.
[04:28] <ScottL_> troy_s, that's what I meant earlier - I don't know Lessig (but I'm happy to know about him now)
[04:28] <persia> The way that solution is implemented in Ubuntu is flavours.  Unfortunately, few are willing to put in the effort to make flavours work well.
[04:28] <troy_s> ScottL_: He's pretty damn clever. Watch his presentation at the Open Video Conference.
[04:29] <ScottL_> persia, in which way to they tend to fail?
[04:30] <ScottL_> Is Lessig the one that Jono was talking about?  I think he had a new book out, apparently Jono even follows him on twitter or facebook or whatever social media is fancy now
[04:30] <persia> ScottL_: Please rephrase the question.
[04:30] <troy_s> Side note, I need to figure out how to float the header far left so I can make it clickable
[04:30] <ScottL_> persia, how would more effort make flavours work well?
[04:30] <troy_s> It stinks not knowing how to do that.
[04:30] <troy_s> Gr.
[04:31] <ScottL_> persia, i realize that is a rather open ended question, pardon my ignorance
[04:31] <ScottL_> persia, you can certainly keep your response topical or bullet points
[04:32] <persia> ScottL_: Basically, it takes nearly as much effort to make any flavour work as any other.  Most sets of folks who don't like the defaults in Ubuntu Desktop don't put in the levels of effort put in by the Ubuntu Desktop folk to support their variation.
[04:33] <ScottL_> troy_s, yeah, Jono was reading "On Lessig" a while back (thanks Google)
[04:33] <persia> The Kubuntu Desktop/Netbook crew is a notable exception.
[04:34] <ScottL_> persia, that is what I thought you were saying
[04:35] <ScottL_> to be honest, I'm almost surprised that studio manages to stay an "official" derivative for the same reason
[04:36] <persia> This is *not* a derivative.
[04:36] <persia> It is a flavour.
[04:36] <persia> The distinction is incredibly important.
[04:36] <persia> A derivative adds or changes stuff shipped by default in an uncooperative way.
[04:36] <persia> A flavour interacts cooperatively with the rest of the larger project to help keep everything in good shape.
[04:37] <ScottL_> oh, like Linux Mint is a derivative then?
[04:37] <persia> So, for example, lots of people use the software Studio cares about without having installed Studio.
[04:37] <persia> That's the most popular one I know of, yes.
[04:38] <ScottL_> a good example of language and choosing the proper word ;)
[04:38] <ScottL_> which i didn't do
[04:42] <ScottL_> persia, troy_s, I enjoyed talking with you two but I need to go, goodnight (or goodnight as the case may be)
[04:43] <ScottL_> errrr (or good day)
[04:43] <troy_s> Adieu
[16:22] <ScottL> troy_s, are you around?
[17:19] <troy_s> ScottL: Here now. Sup?
[17:30]  * akirad is away: Sono occupato
[17:30] <ScottL> troy_s, you mentioned Phi last night and I completely missed it
[17:31] <ScottL> troy_s, the golden ration, it's also a math thing, use to determine Fibonnaci numbers
[17:31] <troy_s> ScottL: Yes. Most important value in Westernized aesthetic.
[17:31] <ScottL> s/ration/ratio
[17:31] <troy_s> ScottL: Yep. Leonardo Da Pisa's real discovery.
[17:32] <troy_s> ScottL: If you have to boil down say 700 years of *Westernized* art and design theory (Most of Euro in that) it boils down to that number.
[17:32] <ScottL> troy_s, i'm a structural designer (well, actually now department supervisor) and a freaking math geek so I'm down with weird things like Fibonnaci's numbers which lead me to Phi
[17:32] <troy_s> ScottL: Rule of Thirds is a rough approximation.
[17:33] <ScottL> troy_s, the human bodies porporitions reflect it too, The Last Supper painting, the famous Greek structures
[17:33] <troy_s> ScottL: Some try to see it everywhere, which it is not. But reality is that most of the Ren buried it into every picture - including aspect ratios of the pictures.
[17:33] <troy_s> ScottL: Ype.
[17:33] <troy_s> ScottL: Although the Greek is debatable.
[17:33] <troy_s> ScottL: Where do you draw your margin to see it. Random numbers are everywhere depending on how you divide the math up.
[17:34] <ScottL> troy_s, and Phi is also in nature, the conch shell, bees combs, pine cones...it's mad crazy
[17:35] <ScottL> troy_s, I might just try to make an Ubuntu Studio with Phi...i'll have to think about it
[17:36] <ScottL> troy_s, are you sure you don't have any design philosophy book you might recommend to a novice?
[17:42] <troy_s> ScottL: Erm. Not philosophy. Try Jim Krause's Design Basics Index.
[17:44] <troy_s> ScottL: Actually, this is likely what you are thinking perhaps... http://books.google.ca/books?id=fbRz8qQHbOwC&q=visual+literacy&dq=visual+literacy&cd=3
[17:44] <troy_s> ScottL: That one is very good.
[18:01] <ScottL> troy_s, yeah, that looks good...i'm extremely ignorant about graphic arts and have little to no talent for it, generally i'm a hack for most things
[18:05] <troy_s> ScottL: The latter is a good one because it sort of approaches it like school - it has some exercises etc. Much in the same vein as Andy Rutledge's 'quiz'.
[18:06] <troy_s> ScottL: You probably already saw it... http://www.andyrutledge.com/creativity-is-not-design-test-2.php
[18:52] <ScottL> hi fritz
[18:53] <FritzFido> Hi all, first time here - came to see what is going on after some e-mail discussions on studio-dev mailing list
[18:53] <ScottL> glad to see you here....it's a little slow right now, but hang around a while though
[18:53] <ScottL> hi akirad 
[18:55] <FritzFido> Ok, I'll hang around
[18:57] <ScottL> if you have questions just ask, but please be prepared to possibly wait a bit (especially on weekends) as people aren't always actively watching the IRC channel, but usually you get an answer eventually
[19:00] <FritzFido> I sent a question to the mailing list earlier about when there are likely to be downloadable studio builds where one can test whether how well the integration of PA and jack works 
[19:00] <FritzFido> I thought I might get an answer more directly here.
[19:08] <ScottL> FritzFido, when TheMuso gets back on line he might be the one to answer that
[19:09] <FritzFido> Scott, you were asking where to see the new theme - look here : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Brand
[19:11] <FritzFido> I was just looking at the new ubuntu splash screen there and wondering if we couldn't keep it much the same - just change "ubunt" to "ubuntu studio" and put the studio logo in place of the small ubuntu logo
[19:23] <ScottL> FritzFido, the word ubuntu in that splash screen is a png image and apparently the font used is not completed yet :(
[19:26] <FritzFido> That's cheating!
[19:40] <ScottL> FritzFido, if someone were to have another design (or font suggestion) we would certainly welcome the input, if that "someone" were you or someone you know that would be even better
[21:09] <FritzFido> Cheers, I'm off now.