[00:10] zniavre, dashua, psyke83: I think we should start a wiki page with info on themeing using murrine [00:10] sound good? [00:10] nobody else has info on it [00:10] Cimi thinks it is a good idea, he just doesn't have the time to do it [00:15] Yeah, sounds good [00:17] Ah you removed the purple tooltips? [00:51] dashua: nope, I haven't changed a thing so far [00:51] ask me tomorrow [00:51] ;-) [00:51] Ah :) [00:51] * dashua is digging aubergine [00:51] kwwii: I assume you're leaving in a min, but anyway, the wiki page is a good idea [00:52] hey [00:52] yeah, indeed [00:52] dashua: it's killer, so many possibilities [00:52] kwwii, Absolutely [00:53] boah, 2am...time for bed [00:54] nite nite [00:54] Nite mate [00:55] psyke83, You mind testing my branch and making sure the text issue you were reporting was fixed. [00:55] When you get a chance. [00:56] dashua: will do [00:56] A lot of the Dust code was in Radiance and it really wasn't needed [00:56] thx [00:56] dashua: indeed [00:57] the lazy feckers ;) [00:57] I tried to remove a bunch but was somewhat afraid of the consequences [00:57] lol [00:57] Hehe [00:57] oh well, night all [00:57] nite [00:57] I cleaned it up, but when the masses get it, there are sure to be issues =/ [00:57] Nite [00:57] the theme I was working on for fun, I based on Human simply because I wasn't familiar with all the Radience/Ambience/Dust stuff [00:57] hehe, naturally my desire to hide the fact that I started with Dust is a mojor problem :P [00:58] I just like to take the piss out of people [00:58] Hehe [00:58] * kwwii listens to Hawkwind Silver Machine and goes to bed [00:59] psyke83, Looks good, A good transition from Human to the new themes [00:59] I like the use of purple [00:59] kwwii, \m/ [01:01] dashua: thanks... perhaps the orange needs toning down (but I was deliberately going for a non-monochromatic look) [01:02] Yeah, it's glaring at first, but soothing after some use [01:02] * dashua listens to Rogue Wave [01:11] dashua: light-themes-refresh contains the text fix? [01:12] It should. [01:12] Unless I missed it. [01:12] maybe we were talking about a different issue, it's not fixed [01:13] just a second and I'll give you the line (I think it's easier if you just fix in your branch rather than I create one ;)) [01:13] ok [01:14] ok, you partially fixed it [01:14] :) [01:15] all you need to do now is to make sure that in the "default" style section, the text[insenstive[ and fg[insensitive] are equal [01:15] Ok thx [01:15] if not, the inactive text of ComboBox will look different to every other widget [01:15] (see twf) [01:17] Gotcha. On Radiance, seems ok [01:17] ok... I didn't check radiance ;) [01:17] Ah Ambiance [01:17] Right [01:19] the theme still has some bugs with text, however [01:20] if you click on the "Customize theme" button in Appearances and change the fg text for text boxes to something else, it's not consistent in the theme [01:21] one sec [01:26] I gotta roll psyke83, just leave anything you find or point me to your fixes. [01:26] Thx again [01:26] yeah I'm too tired to find it now, will do tomorrow :) [01:27] see ya [06:12] kwwii: we need this update for the accelerators patch > https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=588554#c54 [06:12] Gnome bug 588554 in menu "only show the accelerator when pressing alt" [Enhancement,Reopened] [06:14] kwwii: not sure who to point it to.. you mentioned this earlier, currently you are the best person i know ;) [07:34] good morning [09:58] kwwii: are you there ? [11:16] l3on: hey [11:20] kwwii: Hi.. I sent you a email yesterday... Have you received it ? [11:21] It was about light-themes [11:21] I don't think so, let me check [11:21] hrm, I think it got lost in my spam filter [11:22] I don't have it [11:22] mmm ... damin: [11:22] l3on: sorry [11:22] To: yournick@ubuntu.com [11:22] right [11:22] Subject: Ambiance theme refactored [11:22] nope, it is not in my inbox [11:22] ;( [11:23] try sending it to myNick @sinecera dot de [11:24] mmm.. damn, I can't send mail :( Problem is on my way.. Well.. I'll resend you mail with gmail. Just a second :) [11:26] great, thanks [11:29] http://www.ubuntugeek.com/ambiance-theme-for-google-chromechromium.html [11:30] looks nice! [11:34] kwwii: sent [11:52] hrm, still haven't got it [11:52] http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/03/16-things-that-could-be-improved-in.html many good points gathered onto one page [11:54] artnay: themeing wise the only good info I find there is the bub about radiance making the indicators too spaced out [11:55] which I will fix today [11:58] kwwii: great, that has actually bugged me on my 1024x768 virtual machine [11:59] Benjamin doesn't understand Fitt's law [11:59] nice article [11:59] still many (all?) of those would count as paper cuts [12:01] whats the thoughts behind the default font size? as far as i can tell, it really does look much slicker at 8px [12:01] or even 9px. looks sharper [12:04] hey lassegul [12:04] lassegul: I think that is very dependent on which font is used and the screen it is used on [12:05] hi kwwii whats up. yeah, you might be right, but im on windows xp now and comparing it to ubuntu it looks huge! [12:05] ubuntu that is [12:06] proportion of rhythmbox applet is depend what you are listening ,check this >http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/5152/capturemr.png [12:06] well, until now ther ehas also not been a decent font for linux [12:06] kwwii: well, make the best of what you have? ;) [12:06] lassegul: I prefer ttf-droid/undotum as 9px [12:06] zniavre: that didnt look good at all [12:06] :o) [12:06] yeah droid is nice [12:06] we should steal it! [12:06] muhahaha [12:07] kik [12:07] erm [12:07] lassegul: or make something new ;-) [12:07] droid was designed for vertical small screens [12:07] so it is very condensed and high [12:08] but oh so clear and crisp, its like sans, just sexed up a lot [12:08] ^^ [12:08] I actually sent some feedback to maag after reading mark's blogging. and they actually fixed their misspelling tyeface on their page ;) [12:09] lassegul: droid-sans? [12:09] that volume indicator bug has already been fixed if im seeing this correctly [12:09] artnay: dejavu sry [12:10] kwwii: does the new font already an official name? or will the name be announced later on? [12:10] artnay: it will be announced later, no name so far [12:14] lassegul: have you read http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/03/6-desktop-fonts-to-try-in-ubuntu.html ? [12:16] artnay: yeah, good link. im currently using droid sans, probably at 9px because of my huge screen. [12:18] but the new desktop font wont be ready til 10.04 right? [12:18] I don't think so [12:18] lassegul: I'm tied between undotum and droind-sans, using 1920x1080 and (on virtual machine) 1024x768. both work well as 9px [12:21] i like the default nokia font. i wish they would release it [12:22] * kwwii is not feeling well, going to lay down for a bit [12:22] bring the vodka, ill fixx u right up [12:29] :P [12:31] wow, that sounded wrong. *it'll not I'll [12:32] meh , that article is just a bug list... [12:33] the only actual problem is probably the last one about the memenu not being obvious enough [12:41] i never had rhythmbox searching plugins i do not understand this post [12:43] zniavre: it is just a post of a misinformed regular ubuntu user , as are most of OMG's blogs ;p [12:44] not to be taken seriously , but to be treated as "Ubuntu Tabloid" [12:45] i saw into gtk theme in gnome-look somebody adding > GtkToolbar ::window-dragging = 1 < this is not working at all , it will in the futur ? [12:46] zniavre: GtkMenuBar::window-dragging = 1 [12:46] only the menubar is supposed to work , never heard the toolbar allowing dragging [12:48] vish: isnt that a little arrogant? most of these issues are serious enough. i would never let software leave my table at work with these kinds of issues. [12:49] menubar i knew it since few days i was wondering for the toolbar [12:49] (i do QA) [12:49] lassegul: i didnt say it is not a problem ;) [12:49] :o) [12:50] k :) [12:52] lassegul: the mp3 problem is due to copyrights[or whatever] , it cant be included in default Ubuntu OS and be distributed as free , and not sure how he is getting the bug even after installing gstreamer plugins[good/bad/ugly] [12:53] the button position is highly debatable , it is mostly user prefs and what the user is used to.. [I dont use it] but claiming it as a design bug and quoting poll on blog is just silly [12:55] lassegul: preferences menu is a known issue and it _wont_ be fixed for lucid just because it cant ;) [yet] but there are plans to fix it for gnome3 [12:58] lassegul: padding/alignment/memenu pic and the rest are just bugs in dev version, which are already being worked on .. his comments in reply to jono are highly rude/arrogant.. which is what makes it more difficult to understand the reason for the post [13:01] vish: jono? didnt catch that. [13:02] lassegul: read the comments section , there is a huge dialogue going on there ;) [13:02] i dont think you can call the button positioning highly debateable anymore though :P [13:02] its kinda one sided [13:04] lassegul: i dont use it , it is just old prefs[people wont like to change for now reason] , but i still dont understand why it was changed , hence highly debatable , there _might_ be a reason [13:04] s/now/no [13:05] vish: brb. [13:07] only rational reason I can come up with is the position of notify-osd [13:12] artnay: well, i guess u can call uniqueness a positive thing too. [13:13] vish: i dont get why the design team dont share their reasoning. ivanka's blog post is like an introduction to the reason for the change, but it stops prematurely. [13:14] guys, have u tested this? its awesome: http://mrdoob.com/lab/javascript/harmony/ [13:14] vish: i wouldn't call that rude. however, the believe in common sense and the value of polls is sad. [13:30] thorwil: well , it is basically an unnecessary argument.. pointless and doesnt help in any way [13:32] mrdoob , havent seen him in a long while ;) [13:33] vish: it makes you feel like quite the drawing artist [13:33] even without a stylys [13:33] *us [13:33] yeah , pretty neat.. [13:37] iainfarrell: http://www.underconsideration.com/brandnew/archives/ubuntus_circle_of_friends_gets_smaller.php [13:38] hey thorwil [13:38] yeah, we saw that [13:38] good :) [13:39] iainfarrell: btw, still waiting for a an SVG file of the logo(-type) [13:39] Yes, I know - I'm waiting for it too ;) [13:40] we're not final but as soon as we are I'll let you know [13:41] hehe , 0.65% who use the site use UbuntuOS ;p [13:43] *LINUX [13:43] oops, caps [13:44] ah , so Ubuntu is even smaller.. but the most interesting is the ratio of designers who use Mac :) [13:53] http://typophile.com/node/68016 [13:53] http://www.dutchtypelibrary.nl/Prokyon_rdrct.html [14:02] thorwil: probably the original inspiration to both ? > http://www.fontshop.com/fonts/designer/hans_reichel/ [14:02] from the comments ^ [14:03] huh , more > http://www.flickr.com/photos/fountaineer/278176955/in/set-72157594342848887/ [14:05] the guy from dalton maag who is working on this responded to that thread [14:06] it is not a copy of anything [14:06] dalton maag is one of the top font companies in the world [14:06] kwwii: yeah saw that too , hehe , "now that the secret is out" [14:06] ;p [14:07] vish: well, that info was also in the announcement but I don't think anyone read that far down [14:08] kwwii: yeah , people seem to only have focused on the pretty pictures ;) [14:08] :P [14:10] meh , how many truly unique fonts can one really make... at some point there is bound to be a near similarity unless we change the letters entirely ;p [14:13] kwwii: was it? I saw mention of maag only at mark's blog entry [14:14] artnay: well, it was somewhere [14:14] :-) [14:18] not taking any sides, just found that interesting [14:21] * thorwil gets coffee [15:32] kwwii, what is the fix for bug #527267 please ? [15:32] Launchpad bug 527267 in light-themes "Application Indicators too wide" [Low,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/527267 [15:34] zniavre: the radiance theme had an xthickness value set to 4 [15:34] kwwii: in ambience , when a drop-down menu or a combo menu is opened , the menu is dark , while the box was actually light , seems kinda odd doesnt it? [15:34] ;-) [15:34] vish: yeah, I have thought about that a lot [15:34] but from the menubar , it seems to work well , as the menu is also dark [15:34] vish: the way things are now is the intended design [15:34] but I have thought about changing it [15:35] luckily I am sooo busy fixing bugs that I never get around to testing itou [15:35] it out [15:35] :-) [15:35] would be nice if that was changed ;p [15:35] * vish files bug , probably the only way to get kwwii's attention ;) [15:36] vish: well, there is one thing to say about consistency - having all menus the same color is probably better [15:36] vish: lol, along with the 75 other bugs [15:36] vish: make sure that there is not one open already please [15:36] there are a *lot* of duplicates [15:36] sure.. [15:36] I think I will end up spending an entire day finding duplicates [15:36] in fact, if anyone wants to help, please go through the bugs are mark duplicates [15:37] ;-) [15:37] kwwii: yeah, i thinking of doing them [15:37] too many dups :/ [15:37] it's crazy [15:38] kwwii: serves you right! you had to go and make a new theme ;p [15:39] kwwii, thank you [15:43] vish: lol, I can only blame myself [15:43] well, myself and the rest of the design team [15:45] so does anyone want to help writing up a wiki page describing themeing with murrine? [15:50] kwwii: wouldnt a link to http://live.gnome.org/GnomeArt/Tutorials/GtkThemes , be sufficient? [15:52] vish: no, that doesn't explain all the bits unique to murrine [15:53] well, my lucid computer just died during a dist-upgrade [15:53] guess I can spend the rest of today fixing it! [15:53] speak of the devil [15:53] ;-) [15:53] ;) [15:59] oh, so you were speaking about me :P [16:00] 16:45 < kwwii> so does anyone want to help writing up a wiki page describing themeing with murrine? [16:00] not you directly, but your work ;-) [16:00] ahaha :P [16:00] unfortunately my computer just stopped working during an upgrade, going to have to fix that first [16:12] Hi Artwork People [16:18] hi Lcawte [16:18] hi [16:23] * kwwii owes dashua a beer or 3 :-) [16:37] Hi all, are you guy's responsible for the network-manager icon? [16:38] that would be me, I guess [16:39] thorwil: How are you doing? [16:41] kwwii: well, my problem is this: The documentation mentions this icon, but it seems to keep changing. First several times for Karmic, so that the correct description didnt make it into the release [16:41] now for Lucid I noticed today it has changed again, and I was wondering whether it will be changing again any time soon [16:41] trijntje: I assume you mean the ones in the panel, right? [16:41] kwwii: yes, the applet, sorry [16:42] erm, it should not have changed today...it changed more than a week ago [16:42] it should be a series of rounded waves going up [16:42] that design will not change anymore [16:42] the wired icons might though [16:43] kwwii: I was talking about the wired icon in fact [16:44] is there anywhere I could monitor these changes or find out if any given icon is the final one? [16:44] ;-) [16:44] one second, on the phone [16:55] ok, re [16:56] trijntje: well, watching the ubuntu-mono icon set would give you a good idea [16:56] trijntje: and asking me would be really quick ;-) [16:57] trijntje: I will know more about whether the design will change by midday european time tomorrow [16:58] kwwii: well, I dont want to come bother you every other day to ask if its the final version ;) [16:58] but ill be back tomorrow or in a few day's to ask again, thanks for your time [17:00] trijntje: sounds good...you could also send me an email and I can respond if there are changes [17:00] trijntje: I know we're changing things quite late in the cycle [17:03] kwwii: well, its still before the UI freeze ofcource, and I like the new look [17:03] so its not all bad ;) [17:03] hehe, cool [17:04] yay , took down one bug off kwwii's list ;) [17:04] kwwii: Bug #537374 was caused by the auto-memonics option [17:04] Launchpad bug 537374 in gtk+2.0 "Vertical menu scrolling[with keys] not working , when themes enable gtk-auto-mnemonics" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/537374 [17:04] FYI, its bug 440826 [17:04] Launchpad bug 440826 in ubuntu-docs "Network Manager LAN icon description doesnt match Karmic" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/440826 [17:05] trijntje: cool, I will subscribe myself [17:07] kwwii: ok cool, thats easier [17:07] vish: just responded to that [17:09] opensource is cool, I can just go and ask stuf and people will look into it [17:13] lol [17:13] you can even push canonical employees around :/ [17:18] vish: heya, I heard you saw the purple desktop icon Dan made yesterday [17:18] vish: we should put those in lucid [17:18] kwwii: k.. you want it done now? [17:19] vish: that would be great, unless you have any other changes you want to wait for [17:19] kwwii: ok. fixed a couple of other bugs too ... i'll upload to the packagers ppa? [17:19] vish: yes, please do! [17:19] s/ppa/branch [17:20] gothca [17:20] gotcha [17:26] oh, in case anyone hasn't seen it, I suggest testing ttps://chrome.google.com/extensions/detail/elnmibmpefhmfgphdphdncoogpbfmlbp [17:27] * vish lends kwwii a "h" [17:27] https://chrome.google.com/extensions/detail/elnmibmpefhmfgphdphdncoogpbfmlbp [17:31] lol [17:32] dashua: hey, just looking into your changes now...do you ever sleep? [17:32] Hehe, no. [17:32] I can't stop. [17:32] lol [17:33] Those fixes are in my branch from 0.1.5.8 already. I;ll change the menuitem to 0 [17:33] Cleaned a lot of cruft and more fixes :) [17:34] thanks for cleaning it up, it was getting quite messy [17:34] Np [17:35] Looking pretty good now [17:37] dashua: the purple selection was turned down [17:38] :( [17:38] Ok [17:39] and the progress bars do need to be shiny [17:40] I added them back or least I thought so [17:40] hehe [17:40] maybe I should get the latest from bzr [17:40] I branched a several hours ago [17:40] :p [17:40] HA [17:41] I'm heading out now for dinner, when I get back I'll look into it some more [17:41] Ok have fun [18:03] kwwii: pushed humanity update to packagers [18:31] troy_s: hi! demolished an old summer house [18:31] thorwil: Sounds like fun. [18:31] troy_s: nice way to let off some steam. but now my back muscles ache. almost all of them [18:32] troy_s: what have you been up to, lately? [18:32] thorwil: Trying to finish up three projects. [18:32] thorwil: Tad painful. [18:33] thorwil: You might want to tell B to shup. [18:33] troy_s: i'm terrible at managing parallel projects, so i usually end up pulling through one at a time [18:34] Well I can't. They are all gigs so they need to be finished. [18:34] thorwil: Just the nature of the beast unfortunately. [18:35] troy_s: i know what you mean, but i'd have to be diplomatic, as otherwise things just get more complicated [18:35] thorwil: LOL [18:35] thorwil: Well ... to be frank... putting "I did lots and lots of this stuff in highschool" just makes you look like a toolbag. [18:35] thorwil: Hate to be brutal on that, but ... ugh... not helping. [18:36] troy_s: see, you could tell him outright [18:36] LOL [18:37] troy_s: no keen on having a conflict where i have nothing to win, only something to lose [18:37] thorwil: Agree... which is why I figure you might be more diplomatic than I. [18:37] thorwil: There needs to be more _Why_ before we can get to _What_. [18:37] troy_s: vish should take care of that [18:38] troy_s: that would have the advantage that vish isn't me or you :> [18:38] thorwil: It is a point that is completely missed. I saw him relink to the Droid thing. It is clear that there is disagreement there (albeit through some sort of condescending tone, of which I'd step to that plate any day if he seriously wants to engage in a conversation) [18:38] thorwil: But the main problem is that it is _Why_ - a point entirely missed by him. [18:39] thorwil: We can all roll dice and toss out random crap, but we still don't have a why. With the whole phrasing of a goal (albeit missing the obvious _Who_) we can at least get _some_ clump of crap off the table. [18:40] thorwil: It's the _Why_. Bringhurst nails that - why choose a face? It's a valid question. [18:40] troy_s: are you preaching to the choir again? [18:40] thorwil: (And of course, in our case, we have glyph coverage as a nasty constraint - but that is likely something that a community should be very adept at fleshing out given the decision to roll in a given direction.) [18:41] thorwil: No, trying to get you to make it clear that he should be looking at why before he starts randomly tossing links out to disagree with. [18:41] thorwil: I am well aware as to where you sit on the matter. ;) [18:42] troy_s: you may have the best intentions and i may agree on everything that really matters, still i'm not your agent ;) [18:43] thorwil: LOL [18:43] thorwil: Sorry, I know that you are already working over there and have an ear. [18:43] thorwil: Jerk. [18:43] lol [18:44] what? 8-[] [18:44] Sorry... jerkface. [18:44] thorwil: Anything interesting been a happenin'? [18:48] troy_s: http://deamillion.com/ introduced herself on the mailing list [18:48] * troy_s clicking. [18:48] thorwil: Hold on... Flash is inducing a seizure. [18:49] thorwil: Ugh. Ok... I'm sure there is work there somewhere. I'll be buggered if I can flail through that Flash mess though. [18:51] thorwil: Something doesn't computer. [18:51] thorwil: You can't get a BFa in two years for one. [18:52] thorwil: Any good chats happening on the list? [18:53] troy_s: no, it's rather depressing [18:53] thorwil: Well that stinks. Can you speak German? [18:53] troy_s: dude, that's my mother tongue [18:54] thorwil: Well I could have made the erroneous "YOU CAN SPEAK GERMAN RIGHT?" assumption... I erred on not doing that... let me find a link. [18:55] thorwil: http://forum.ubuntuusers.de/topic/distributionsvielfalt/ [18:55] thorwil: I can't really read it except via translate [18:55] yes, you could have, but your are the careful and elaborate troy_s ;) [18:55] thorwil: But it seems that there are some pretty damn good discussions going on regarding the diversity versus monolithic approach. [18:56] thorwil: Sort of refreshing to read (as I hobbled through it via awkward translate) [18:56] thorwil: A friend tipped me off to the discussion as it was relevant to the great 'Who' debate. [18:56] thorwil: I'm certain there is much nuance in the language that I miss though... such is the fate of a unilingular idiot. [18:57] wow, that svg is insane [18:57] thorwil: I _think_ that is the thread... should be about who for an audience and discussing diversity of distributions / appliances. [18:58] thorwil: Picks up page 2 or 3 methinks. [18:58] troy_s: yes, german is full of nuances, many of which are actually all about making fun of english -only speakers ;) [18:58] thorwil: I had a chat recently with a friend... on the nuance of "ideal" versus "idealism" [19:00] thorwil: Which is a very subtle one in terms of one being relatively 'positive' for a connotation versus the implicit negativity of "idealist" for example. [19:00] thorwil: He was pointing out that the rough German equivalents (and again - only his opinion of course) were more or less quite neutral. [19:01] troy_s: so far that thread is just being-able-to-chose-what-suits-you-best vs cost-of-fragmentation [19:02] thorwil: Yeah... it picks up. [19:02] thorwil: It evolves into the idea of tackling based on audience needs if I remember. [19:03] continues with the cost of having to choose vs just doubting that that effect is real [19:04] thorwil: I think Schwartz's thesis pops up there. [19:04] yes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMV4PIEIKY4 [19:05] "why would someone faced with 40 kinds of ice cream buy a pizza instead" [19:09] http://forum.ubuntuusers.de/post/2391682/ brings up the potential to target many different audiences [19:10] and says that the Ubuntu approach of trying to be one for all would be not very clever [19:14] troy_s: someone arguing that a 3d artist will likely have other needs that a sound-engineer and why should they use the same distribution? [19:14] thorwil: I think that is a legit discussion. [19:14] troy_s: seen such arguments before. ignores the cost of rebooting for the poor people who have several interests ;) [19:15] thorwil: I think this likely boils down to constraints - something people don't think about much. As in - At which point does a design decision detract from the overarching direction / audience need? We could probably spot Cos' kernel tweaks for desktop use in opposition to what was already in main etc. [19:16] thorwil: I'd think that you could twiddle things one way or another, but you have to think that say - an appliance built for gaming outperforms an appliance built for word processing or sound editing etc. [19:16] thorwil: Can we more greatly satisfy an audience's need with a greater degree of precision? [19:17] troy_s: another one studied a bit of sociology and mentions that people need "marks" to get together and interact [19:19] that reminds me of people who will go so far as to fake religious beliefs to be able to participate in an attractive community [19:20] thorwil: It is interesting. [19:20] thorwil: I thought the discussion was pretty on point and didn't just do the knee jerk "ITS ABOUT EVERYONE!1!!!!! ZOMGYOUARE AN IDIOTOOTT!!222!!!" [19:25] troy_s: guess it's a big reason for the success of ubuntu that social aspects are handled consciously. other projects focus on technical matters first and a social group _might_ build up [19:25] thorwil: I think it is a social aspect of not treating everyone outside of the 733t as donkeys. [19:25] thorwil: That's not exactly rocket surgery though. [19:26] troy_s: kinda sucks that sometimes it does seem like everyone outside of certain circles is in fact a donkey :> [19:26] thorwil: That said, the core of the design problem here - I [NEED | DESIRE] Red, you [NEED | DESIRE] Blue. You cannot solve that no matter how hard you try or clever you think you are. [19:27] troy_s: surely the solution is Violet! [19:27] thorwil: (Grossly simplifying the matter, but the reality is that there are likely a number of facets that are that very RED / BLUE posit) [19:27]