[09:25] <CIA-3> ubiquity: evand * r3919 ubiquity/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Removed the alpha warning. Welcome to Ubuntu 10.04 Beta 1.
[10:27] <michaelforrest> ev hallo
[10:27] <ev> hiya
[10:27] <michaelforrest> mark is happy with this version of the slideshow: http://people.ubuntu.com/~dylanmccall/ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/redesign-lucid/ubuntu-transitions/slides/index.html#controls
[10:27] <michaelforrest> so let's get that in :)
[10:28] <michaelforrest> I still need to get a proper ubuntu logo though
[10:29] <CIA-3> console-setup: cjwatson * r133 ubuntu/debian/ (changelog console-setup.initramfs-top): Fix incorrect FONT and ACM tests in initramfs script.
[10:30] <ev> that's good, considering it ended up on omgubuntu last night :-/
[10:30] <michaelforrest> indeed
[10:33] <ev> michaelforrest: did you get a hold of Marcus for that?
[10:33] <michaelforrest> I just emailed him
[10:33] <michaelforrest> and will now start hassling
[10:33] <michaelforrest> they have been going into super-minute detail on it this week
[10:33] <michaelforrest> so I think I may have to give him a chinese burn
[10:34] <ev> lol
[10:45] <michaelforrest> ev: what format do I need here? Do you think I can just send a png at the right size?
[10:46] <ev> svg would be preferable (so that we have the original source in the tree), but png will do if that's all you have
[10:53] <ev> for those playing along at home, bug 537986 is the freeze exception request for the labelled gtk entries on the user setup page
[11:06] <cjwatson> ev: what's happening with foundations-lucid-oem-config?
[11:07] <ev> cjwatson: I'm going to have to defer the last bit.  My time has been focused on dealing with the list of design requested changes to ubiquity.
[11:07] <cjwatson> which is the last bit?
[11:08] <cjwatson> (I forget whether the non-ascii passwords stuff happened)
[11:08] <ev> automatically remove language packs.  I'm convinced that there are not problems with non-ascii passwords in GNOME these days.
[11:08] <cjwatson> didn't Dell request that bit?
[11:08] <cjwatson> or am I misremembering
[11:08] <ev> I'm not sure who requested it, actually
[11:08] <ev> otherwise I'd be inquiring as to why it was raised in the first place
[11:09] <cjwatson> superm1: were you looking for automatically installing language packs, or automatically removing them?
[11:09] <cjwatson> (oem-config)
[11:09] <ev> oh, who requested the auto remove?  I think that was Dell
[11:09] <persia> I know that there *are* problems with non-ascii passwords in GNOME.
[11:09] <ev> really?
[11:09] <persia> Specifically for asian languages, where you need an IME.
[11:09] <ev> can you give me a test case?
[11:09] <persia> The issues are twofold:
[11:09] <ev> IME doesn't work in ubiquity
[11:10] <persia> 1) In GDM, it doesn't capture keystrokes fed to the IME to block timeout for timed logins.
[11:10] <cjwatson> right, so you can't enter IME-requiring passwords in the first place
[11:10] <persia> 2) gnome-screensaver doesn't permit unlock.
[11:10] <ev> I couldn't get ibus to talk to it
[11:10] <persia> Oh, then you've already solved it differently :)
[11:10] <cjwatson> the comment in the specification is "non-ascii passwords are allowed in ubiquity, but disallowed in later password prompts like gksudo"
[11:11] <cjwatson> anyway, I agree that part can be dropped without major issue
[11:11] <ev> for what it's worth, I did try gksudo and it worked fine with the set of characters I tried
[11:11] <persia> That doesn't match my experience with it, but if ubiquity doesn't support an IME, it doesn't matter.  Non-IME non-ascii seems to work OK.
[11:11] <cjwatson> for removing language packs, I'm inclined to say defer to beta-2 and I'll offer to do it?
[11:11] <ev> if we defer it to beta 2, I'm happy to do it
[11:11] <persia> Note that this is a regression from jaunty, where ubiquity *did* support the IME.
[11:11] <ev> I don't want to dump things on you
[11:12] <cjwatson> what goes around comes around :)
[11:12] <ev> hahaha
[11:12] <cjwatson> I probably deserve it, but whatever
[11:12] <ev> I don't recall you ever dumping anything on me
[11:13] <ev> persia: I'm not very familiar with IME.  Did ibus exist in jaunty and did it communicate over dbus?
[11:14] <cjwatson> used to be scim, which probably wasn't dbus
[11:14] <persia> ev: jaunty was scim, which used the GTK IM extensions.
[11:14] <ev> ah, so I suspect that's why then
[11:14] <persia> Indeed.
[11:15] <ev> someday, when someone is crazy enough to rewrite ubiquity to talk to its frontend over dbus, all of this will go away
[11:15] <persia> I'll give it a fiddle at some point, and maybe point some of the IME devs at it, but not likely in time for lucid.
[11:15] <ev> and we'll all ride unicorns off into the sunset
[11:15] <ev> cool
[11:15] <persia> That will indeed be a great day :)
[11:18] <persia> Oh, I should ask, rather than flailing more, is there a good way to get per-locale reconfiguration done after selecting language during install?
[11:18] <persia> I would have thought to do it in casper, but with the new interface, I'm no longer sure this is the right answer.
[11:20] <ev> is what you're trying to do specific to a particular project, or is it general enough to be carried in Ubuntu proper?  If the latter, you could modify the end of bin/ubiquity-dm (or I suppose we could add a hook for post-greeter steps)
[11:20] <persia> It's bug #531155
[11:21] <persia> This ends up propagating into new installs too, forcing dpkg-reconfigure or use of the alternate installer.
[11:21] <persia> I suspect there's a few other packages that have locale-specific logic in postinst.
[11:21] <persia> (but gedit is the one that people complained about to me)
[11:22] <persia> Does that belong in ubiquity-dm ?
[11:25] <ev> definitely not ubiquity-dm then if it's affecting installs
[11:25] <ev> I would imagine casper still
[11:25] <ev> oh
[11:26] <ev> no, that's obviously wrong
[11:26] <ev> ignore me
[11:26] <persia> Do we know the locale in casper still?  I thought we didn't know it anymore because of the new gfxboot
[11:26] <ev> indeed, we don't
[11:26] <ev> I just didn't think that through enough before I started talking
[11:26] <ev> hrm
[11:26] <persia> I asked the reporter to file against casper because it would have been casper in karmic (and I hadn't looked at the lucid stuff enough at the time)
[11:27] <persia> But I'm now convinced it's the wrong place.
[11:27] <persia> I'm also convinced it's not a bug in gedit, because it's hard to detect encodings, so we want a narrow set for each locale.
[11:28] <persia> (this will annoy folks who use one locale with documents from a different locale, but that's not a well supported use case right now anyway)
[11:29] <cjwatson> I'd say it's a bug in gedit for depending on the system locale rather than the user locale?
[11:30] <cjwatson> (if I'm understanding correctly - I'm just going on the conversation above, haven't checked the bug)
[11:30] <persia> cjwatson: Essentially, gedit sets it's import filter lists at install time.  I can see that argument, and can certainly go reopen the bug seb closed previously :)
[11:30] <persia> (which was actually about cross-locale usage, and so somewhat different)
[11:31] <persia> But I like the interpretation of it being a gedit bug.
[11:33] <ev> michaelforrest: do you recall what we agreed to call the "Zone:" label now that the "Region:" label is gone? - http://people.canonical.com/~evand/screenshots/ubiquity/9.10-beta-candidate/2-timezone.png
[11:44] <michaelforrest> Yah "Time Zone"
[11:57] <ev> ah, duh
[11:57] <ev> thanks
[12:32] <CIA-3> console-setup: cjwatson * r134 ubuntu/ (5 files in 2 dirs):
[12:32] <CIA-3> console-setup: Move boot tasks to a combination of two udev rules and a single Upstart
[12:32] <CIA-3> console-setup: job, ensuring that they're run at points when we are able to satisfy the
[12:32] <CIA-3> console-setup: constraints on the relevant ioctls. This may not work optimally with
[12:32] <CIA-3> console-setup: vgacon, but you have to go to special effort to use that with Ubuntu
[12:32] <CIA-3> console-setup: now, and it at least shouldn't break (LP: #524439).
[12:51] <ev> bah, it's not possible to do something like strftime %X, but without seconds, is it?
[12:58] <cjwatson> ev: difficult.  no, there doesn't seem to be
[12:58] <cjwatson> the separator isn't always : either
[12:58] <ev> indeed
[12:59] <ev> so looks like we're stuck with it unless we start providing a translation string for time format
[12:59] <ev> but I think that's a bit much
[13:00] <cjwatson> for instance, as far as I can tell, in Chinese, you have something like 12时59分58秒
[13:00] <cjwatson> how does the panel clock applet do it?
[13:00] <cjwatson> it has a "Show seconds" checkbox
[13:00] <cjwatson> maybe it's just locale-incorrect ...
[13:00] <ev> does it?  I have radio buttons for 12 hour and 24 hour time, despite being in en_GB.utf8
[13:01] <ev> hrm, I'll dig through its source though
[13:01] <ev> maybe there's a trick to this
[13:01] <ev> or maybe gtk already does the gettext thing
[13:02] <cjwatson> I have it set to not show seconds to avoid it waking up every second and sucking power
[13:03] <ev> heh
[13:06] <ev> #. Translators: This is a strftime format string.
[13:06] <ev> #. * It is used to display the time in 12-hours format
[13:06] <ev> #. * (eg, like in the US: 8:10 am). The %p expands to
[13:06] <ev> #. * am/pm.
[13:06] <ev> #. Translators: This is a strftime format string.
[13:06] <ev> #. * It is used to display the time in 12-hours format (eg, like
[13:06] <ev> #. * in the US: 8:10 am). The %p expands to am/pm.
[13:06] <ev> #.
[13:06] <ev> #: ../applets/clock/calendar-window.c:303 ../applets/clock/clock.c:445
[13:06] <ev> #: ../applets/clock/clock-location-tile.c:516
[13:06] <ev> msgid "%l:%M %p"
[13:06] <ev> erm actually, not quite what we want
[13:06] <cjwatson> we want appropriate-hours rather than 12/24-hours
[13:06] <cjwatson> I think
[13:07] <ev> indeed
[13:07] <cjwatson> you might be able to get that from nl_langinfo though?
[13:34] <ev> I don't think so, at least not that I can see.  My thought is to provide ubiquity/timezone_strftime_format, translated to %l:%M %p for en_US, and %k:%M for en_GB.
[13:40] <ev> granted, that means we can't simply import translations from gnome-panel
[13:40] <ev> hrm
[13:42] <ev> though we could use this with the aforementioned strings from gnome-panel: http://paste.ubuntu.com/394018/
[13:54]  * persia idly notes that there are locales that use neither 12-hour nor 24-hour time by convention (well outside the scope of this issue)
[13:56] <davmor2> persia: who uses the binary clock by default? ;)
[13:57] <persia> davmor2: Not that, but that here it is conventional to use numbers > 24 to denote times of day.
[13:57] <persia> For instance, the trains run from about 4:00 to about 25:30
[13:58] <persia> (well, rather 4寺00分 to 25寺30分
[15:26] <superm1> cjwatson, its actually both, installing them if  they are available and selected, and a key to remove extras that were already installed and not needed
[15:28] <cjwatson> ev: ^- in that case I think we need to keep this on the list but move to beta-2
[15:28] <ev> cjwatson: okay
[15:28] <cjwatson> which indeed is what I did
[16:07] <cjwatson> ev: is your additional fix for bug 529366 likely to land for beta-1?  and do you suspect a parted bug in and around all this?
[16:07] <ev> probably not beta 1, moving the goalpost to beta 2...
[16:08] <ev> and no, I don't think it's really a parted bug beyond the fact that the behavior changed in 2.1
[16:08] <ev> unless it's expected that you can tell the kernel to re-read the partition table with mounted partitions
[16:09] <ev> err s/tell/get/
[16:09] <cjwatson> you used to be able to do so partially.  it was a bad hack at best.
[16:09] <cjwatson> maybe this is why Dell has been having trouble, since I know they were relying on that bad hack for recovery installs
[16:09] <cjwatson> anyway, separate bug about that ...
[16:10] <cjwatson> it's certainly best for any software we control to avoid relying on this
[16:12] <ev> indeed
[16:13] <ev> I never thought removing seconds from a clock would require a 2,900 line patch
[16:13] <ev> (in fairness that's 99% translation data)
[16:25] <ev> cjwatson: is there a place other than the list of languages in localechooser/languagelist I should be looking at when checking for sufficient support before adding new imported translations from GTK+?  There seems to be quite a few this time around.
[16:26] <cjwatson> languagelist is canonical
[16:26] <cjwatson> if we don't have base installer translations, I haven't been importing the corresponding GTK+ translations
[16:27] <ev> okay, thanks
[18:06] <CIA-3> installation-guide: cjwatson * r463 ubuntu/ (build/entities/common.ent debian/changelog): Bump release version and names for Lucid (LP: #501572).
[18:08] <CIA-3> installation-guide: cjwatson * r464 ubuntu/ (build/entities/common.ent debian/changelog): Bump kernelversion to 2.6.32.
[18:09] <CIA-3> installation-guide: cjwatson * r465 ubuntu/ (debian/changelog en/welcome/what-is-ubuntu.xml): Bump GNOME version to 2.30.
[18:10] <CIA-3> installation-guide: cjwatson * r466 ubuntu/ (build/entities/common.ent debian/changelog): Bump x11ver to 7.5.
[18:12] <CIA-3> installation-guide: cjwatson * r467 ubuntu/ (debian/changelog en/install-methods/automatic-install.xml):
[18:12] <CIA-3> installation-guide: Remove comments about automatic installation methods that have been
[18:12] <CIA-3> installation-guide: removed from Ubuntu (LP: #496554).
[18:13] <CIA-3> installation-guide: cjwatson * r468 ubuntu/ (debian/changelog en/appendix/preseed.xml):
[18:13] <CIA-3> installation-guide: Remove documentation of
[18:13] <CIA-3> installation-guide: base-installer/kernel/linux/initramfs-generators; setting this to
[18:13] <CIA-3> installation-guide: anything other than the default will cause the installer to fail
[18:13] <CIA-3> installation-guide: (LP: #415469).
[18:17] <CIA-3> installation-guide: cjwatson * r469 ubuntu/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Stop building for lpia.
[18:22] <CIA-3> installation-guide: cjwatson * r470 ubuntu/debian/changelog: sync up previous changelog
[18:27] <CIA-3> installation-guide: cjwatson * r471 ubuntu/debian/changelog: releasing version 20081208ubuntu6
[18:37] <qizwiz> is this the place to ask about turnkey linux?
[18:44] <cjwatson> no, I think you'd want a turnkey channel, if there is one (I don't know)
[18:45] <qizwiz> well, googling freenode and turnkey brought me here, sort of
[18:45] <qizwiz> per this google hit: http://osdir.com/ml/linux.ubuntu.server/2008-09/msg00079.html
[18:46] <qizwiz> and a scan of the first page of hits didn't indicate any #turnkey-linux :-(
[18:49] <cjwatson> sorry, I don't think we can help you
[18:49] <cjwatson> perhaps there is a mailing list
[18:49] <qizwiz> perhaps
[18:49] <qizwiz> let me take a quick stab, though
[18:50] <qizwiz> turnkey linux does not have emacs on it by default...its ubuntu 8.0.4. I don't want to foul up my TKL, but I gotta have my emacs. What's the recommended apt repository?
[18:51] <cjwatson> I'm sorry, no idea
[18:52] <cjwatson> I wouldn't want to try to recommend something based on Ubuntu in case I screw it up for you.  Please find somebody who knows about Turnkey ...
[18:52] <qizwiz> alright. I was hoping it was a generic enough question. maybe a different debian room?
[18:53] <cjwatson> no, you'll need something specifically turnkey.  There may simply be no appropriate IRC channel, and you'll have to try e-mail
[18:53] <cjwatson> apt repositories are often project-specific
[18:53] <cjwatson> not necessarily always, but often, and I don't know whether that's the case here
[18:54] <qizwiz> feh. ok. yeah, there is a archive.turnkeylinux.org according to my sources.list (I think that's it..it's from memory yesterday)
[18:55] <qizwiz> but ther's also archive.ubuntu.com/unbuntu hardy
[18:55] <qizwiz> I wonder why it's not finding it there
[19:16] <qizwiz> i figured it out
[22:29] <CIA-3> console-setup: cjwatson * r135 ubuntu/debian/ (changelog control):
[22:29] <CIA-3> console-setup: Depend on kbd (>= 1.15-1ubuntu3) for a valuable loadkeys improvement.
[22:29] <CIA-3> console-setup: This was previously a recommends, but the udev rule won't work without
[22:29] <CIA-3> console-setup: kbd or console-tools anyway, I'm not really interested in supporting a
[22:29] <CIA-3> console-setup: system without either installed, and console-tools is thoroughly
[22:29] <CIA-3> console-setup: obsolete now.
[22:30] <CIA-3> console-setup: cjwatson * r136 ubuntu/debian/console-setup.console-setup.upstart: clarification of loadkeys behaviour
[23:51] <CIA-3> ubiquity: cjwatson * r3920 ubiquity/ (debian/changelog ubiquity/components/ubi-language.py): Fix label retranslation when clicking on update link (LP: #531864).