[00:10] <humphreybc> who's here at the moment?
[00:10]  * dutchie is leaving pretty soon
[00:10] <humphreybc> dutchie, http://humphreybc.homeip.net/files/umlogo.png
[00:10] <dutchie> ooh, pretty
[00:10] <humphreybc> thorsten and I have been working on the logo
[00:11] <dutchie> (though I'll say that about more or less anything)
[00:11] <humphreybc> lol
[00:19]  * humphreybc regrets spamming the connect to server thing, now is getting lots of errors because it can't connect, due to the fact it is already connected. yay.
[00:49] <godbyk> I'm around.
[00:50] <humphreybc> have a look at the logo above, tell me your thoughts
[00:50] <godbyk> humphreybc: tell me about it.  what're you aiming for?
[00:52] <humphreybc> not sure. thorwil came up with the idea :P
[00:56] <humphreybc> godbyk, i'm chatting with mpt
[00:56] <humphreybc> i suggested to him that he has a chat with you
[00:56] <godbyk> cool
[00:56] <godbyk> I emailed the Ayatana list earlier, are you subscribed there?
[00:58] <humphreybc> nein
[00:59] <godbyk> humphreybc: Here's what I posted earlier: https://lists.launchpad.net/ayatana/msg01002.html
[09:56] <thorwil> godbyk: what do you think of http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2010/03/12/fitts-law-misunderstood/#comment-2701 ?
[10:36] <thorwil> humphreybc: hi! removing 2 of the 3 arms would destroy the concept of material coming from several sources. not to forget the symmetry with the CoF
[10:36] <thorwil> humphreybc: so how about http://www.foopics.com/showfull/16ee689c2cd04c2b9ecd7d116d12c354 ?
[10:37] <thorwil> anyone knows a term for that symmetry based on 3?
[11:28] <humphreybc> thorwil, I came up with this: http://humphreybc.homeip.net/files/umlogo.png
[11:28] <humphreybc> based on what you had
[11:28] <humphreybc> i don't think it looks too bad
[11:29] <humphreybc> that one you linked to (http://www.foopics.com/showfull/16ee689c2cd04c2b9ecd7d116d12c354) is an improvement
[11:31] <humphreybc> i'm still not a huge fan of the three arms thing. the concept is good, but i think we can say the same thing with only one arm than we can with three
[11:31] <humphreybc> as the for the symmetry, with the text on the right and the arm to the left of the logo, i think it balances okay
[11:31] <humphreybc> godbyk, you there?
[11:40] <humphreybc> godbyk, we got back from the pub, NZ won the cricket which was good. and then we proceeded to play imaginary scrabble, ie, with imaginary words instead of real words. good times!
[11:46] <thorwil> humphreybc: no, we cannot say the same thing with only one arm
[11:46] <humphreybc> hrm
[11:47] <humphreybc> i just think the three arm thing looks too aggressive/sharp
[11:47] <humphreybc> sort of like a flying dart that's going to hit you in the eye
[11:47] <humphreybc> or a ninja's throwing start
[11:47] <humphreybc> star*
[11:47] <humphreybc> that's what I see when I look at the three arm one, a ninja throwing star that's going to hit me in the face
[11:47] <humphreybc> :)
[11:48] <humphreybc> we want to give the message that we're really cool, and really easy to get involved with
[11:48] <thorwil> then i have to try a different arrangement
[11:49] <humphreybc> sure. the different sources thing is awesome, because it's definitely what we do - we're a bunch of people coming together to create quality documentation for the ubuntu user base
[11:49] <humphreybc> and we want to collaborate with the docs team, the learning project and canonical in the future
[12:16] <thorwil> humphreybc: http://www.foopics.com/showfull/c5dde7f67169d9f7ee00790933c6ecfe
[12:18] <humphreybc> that's better. although now I must admit it looks a bit like some sort of computer bus or IDE plug
[12:18] <humphreybc> :P
[12:19] <humphreybc> is there some way we could incorporate an education aspect to the logo?
[12:20] <humphreybc> the community learning project use a graduation hat: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=branding-large.png
[12:25] <thorwil> while this is not meant to be audience-facing, i doubt anyone wants to feel like a schoolar in this context. there's that sense of hierarchy
[12:25] <humphreybc> true
[12:26] <humphreybc> i just feel that if we're designing a logo it should encapsulate everything that we are about, and that is mainly education, collaboration and ease of contribution
[12:28] <thorwil> humphreybc: encapsulating everything is how you end up with piles of stuff that don't work on small scale
[12:28] <humphreybc> true
[12:28] <thorwil> humphreybc: http://www.foopics.com/showfull/dbd0b0d25701a354b8f7e04cef6b31b6
[12:28] <humphreybc> well, i'll keep thinking about it some more. ask the others for feedback too :)
[12:29] <humphreybc> would it look better if the smaller pages were overlapping one another like they were before, but in that arrangement?
[12:29] <humphreybc> how do I know that's an educational document by looking at it?
[12:29] <humphreybc> how does that look on a small scale?
[12:30] <thorwil> no point in going smaller than that
[12:30] <humphreybc> we would have to for launchpad though
[12:30] <humphreybc> i think they have like 16x16 or 14x14 icon sizes for some things
[12:30] <humphreybc> not that it's particularly important
[12:33] <humphreybc> http://www.artistsvalley.com/images/icons/Professional%20Vista%20Software%20Icons/Book%20Help%20Manual/256x256/Book%20Help%20Manual.jpg
[12:34] <humphreybc> have a look at some of these for inspiration: http://www.luckyicon.com/pictures/webasyst/webasyst-all-icons.png
[12:35] <humphreybc> some of these too? http://www.visual-blast.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/free_project_icon_set.jpg
[12:38] <humphreybc> you've got the right idea though, and i do appreciate all the work you're doing on this, it's awesome :D
[12:52] <humphreybc> in fact I think everyone on the team owes Thorsten a big ka pai :)
[12:54] <humphreybc> sleep time for me, night all :)
[18:20] <godbyk> thorwil: His argument has some merit.  I've emailed you a paper that discusses an error model derived from Fitts' law.
[18:21] <godbyk> thorwil: I've also been paying attention to my mousing lately, and I notice that when I move to hit the close button or the file menu, I often throw the mouse pointer in the general direction, overshoot, and then slow down to acquire the target.
[18:22] <godbyk> I don't know how widespread that behavior is, though.
[18:55] <thorwil> godbyk: awesom, thanks
[19:14] <godbyk> thorwil: no problem.
[19:14] <thorwil> vish: how should i describe the role you had regarding the icons on the title page?
[19:14] <godbyk> thorwil: re: the ubuntu manual logo, I like the first one best.  it looks like the pages are coming from different places instead of multiple streams from one source.
[19:15] <godbyk> though it looks like the final result is just a stack of papers.  I think a better final result would be a book.
[19:15] <vish> thorwil: "insignificant" ;)
[19:15] <thorwil> godbyk: Ben thinks it looks aggressive, reminds him of a shuriken
[19:16]  * godbyk looks again.
[19:16] <thorwil> vish: heh. i just have to give you credit
[19:16] <godbyk> I don't get the shuriken thing.. doesn't look like that to me.
[19:17] <thorwil> godbyk: maybe he had more exposure to ninjas? though why he would still be breathing then?
[19:17] <godbyk> though it might be better of the pages swooped in more, instead of the linear thing you have now.  looks almost like one big page on a tripod of other pages.
[19:17] <godbyk> Well, he did find my ninja pic last night: http://kevin.godby.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/ninjas.png
[19:18] <godbyk> maybe that scared him. :-)
[19:18] <thorwil> godbyk: tried that. just not enough room to do that, as the pages have to stick out enough in 2 directions
[19:18] <godbyk> bummer.
[19:18] <thorwil> godbyk: now i'm scared too!!
[19:18] <godbyk> As you should be!
[19:18] <godbyk> (The things I do for class projects!)
[19:18]  * vish somehow finds the logo not really conveying the meaning of "collaboration" 
[19:19] <vish> , seems more like library or the matrix ;p
[19:19]  * thorwil makes agent smith spawn right next to vish 
[19:20] <vish> ha , thorwil didnt know vish was agent smith ;p
[19:20] <thorwil> ha, vish didn't know he was only thinking to be agent smith
[19:21] <vish> we are all in the matrix , man .. <hippie moan>
[19:37]  * thorwil wants a blog with several-files-at-once upload
[19:38] <godbyk> thorwil: wordpress lets you.
[19:38] <thorwil> then i'm doing it wrong
[19:46] <komsas> hi godbyk, I found that after compiling lithuanian pdf, not all translations got to pdf. Can you help me to find problem?
[19:46] <godbyk> komsas: I can try.
[19:47] <komsas> How I can help?
[19:47] <godbyk> Which translations are missing?
[19:48] <komsas> "Shuleworth set out with clear intentions to address these weaknesses and create a system ... "
[19:52] <thorwil> so it's the flash based uploader thats upports multiple files, the plain one doesn't
[19:52] <godbyk> komsas: It may be because I changed the quotation marks from " to `` and '' in that paragraph a while back.
[19:52] <godbyk> And there hasn't been an updated pot file generated since then.
[19:53] <godbyk> So po4a can't match up the the string in the po file with the string in the .tex file.
[19:53] <godbyk> (But that's just a guess.)
[19:53] <godbyk> thorwil: yeah, that sounds right.
[20:25] <komsas> godbyk: what \gls and similar tags do?
[20:26] <godbyk> komsas: \gls is a glossary tag.
[20:26] <ubuntujenkins> evening all
[20:26] <godbyk> It looks up the label in the frontmatter/glossary-entries.tex file, prints that word, and links it to the glossary entry at the end of the manual.
[20:27] <godbyk> hey, ubuntujenkins.
[20:27] <ubuntujenkins> hey godbyk
[20:27] <godbyk> komsas: The \gls command shouldn't be translated (but you can move it around in the sentence if you need to). Instead, translate the corresponding \newglossaryentry command.
[20:30] <komsas> godbyk: thanks now it more clear.
[20:31] <godbyk> komsas: no problem. in the \newglossaryentry command, for lithuanian, you may also need to provide a plural={plural-form} bit (assuming the plurals of words in lithuanian aren't generated by appending 's' to the singular form).
[20:45] <godbyk> thorwil: re: cover page designs. I'm not a fan of the dots.  the arcs and color fill look nice, though they may not be good for printing (uses a lot of ink/toner)
[20:47] <godbyk> thorwil: on the bold vs. regular font issue, I think I like the non-bold version a bit better.
[20:47] <godbyk> (comparing A and B there)
[20:50] <godbyk> comparing C, D, an E, I like the matching color of E better than the purple-orange combo of C, and the two-tone combo of D
[20:52] <thorwil> godbyk: noted. would be good to have that in a comment or on the list, though ;)
[20:53] <godbyk> aw, man! you're gonna make me write it all again? :)
[20:53] <thorwil> heh
[20:55] <thorwil> some words on composition would be nice, too
[20:55] <godbyk> Yeah, I just hadn't got there yet. :)
[20:56] <godbyk> I'll take a look at them all and jot down some notes and compose a bit more structured email about it.
[20:56] <thorwil> cool, ty
[20:57] <godbyk> Speaking of composition, what design elements need to be fixed in the interior of the manual?
[20:57] <godbyk> I have a list here, but want to make sure I'm not missing anything.
[20:58]  * thorwil needs to update
[20:59] <godbyk> I should print a copy of the manual and flip through it now that there's a lot more content.
[20:59] <godbyk> See if there are common elements that need to be flagged that weren't there the first time I went through it.
[20:59] <thorwil> uh, you squashing A4 to letter on the title page?
[21:00] <komsas> godbyk: it is difficult to change sentence sequence of words and numbers from gloss-lithuania.ldf. It is the chapter and the part words. I found that in lithuanian we write firstly number then one of these words. Like II chapter or 2 part. If you can make it then these words must begin in lower case.
[21:00] <thorwil> godbyk: toc, gap between titles and page number seems excessive
[21:00] <godbyk> heh.. yeah, that's just 'til we decide on a title page.  :)
[21:01] <thorwil> godbyk: and i wonder if that counting scheme with roman numerals is really appropriate
[21:02] <thorwil> godbyk: we should perhaps not use the same color for links and titles
[21:02] <godbyk> komsas: I can do that.  How would you translate: "Chapter 1: Installation"  and "Part I: Getting Started"?
[21:02] <godbyk> thorwil: What's the roman numeral counting scheme refer to?
[21:02] <komsas> you want that I write it in lithuanian?
[21:02] <thorwil> godbyk: numbering for Prologue
[21:03] <godbyk> thorwil: Different colors for section headings and the links?  Also, should the web links be a different color than the internal cross-ref links?
[21:03] <godbyk> komsas: yes.  that way I can see what order to put the number and words in.
[21:04] <thorwil> godbyk: i'd rather use a symbol to mark either kind of links
[21:04] <godbyk> thorwil: fair enough. we can pore over the symbols list and find some good ones to use.
[21:05] <thorwil> godbyk: no wait, as long as internal links can be clearly recognised by having http...
[21:05] <godbyk> thorwil: I think there are some external links that aren't listed by url.  I'll look to be sure.
[21:06] <komsas> "1 skyrius: Įdiegimas" and "I dalis: Pradžia"
[21:06] <thorwil> godbyk: Ubuntu philosophy has “Ubuntu” <- quotation marks ... we gonna use italic, right?
[21:07] <thorwil> godbyk: lists don't need spacing between list items, thanks to bullets and indentation
[21:07] <godbyk> komsas: thanks!  I'll get that fixed today.  the skyrius and dalis should be lowercase, correct?  also, are roman numbers (I, II, III, IV, etc.) okay for the part numbers?
[21:08] <komsas> godbyk: yes, roman numbers are okey ;) Thank you !
[21:08] <thorwil> godbyk: i wonder if the Part 1/2 structure really needs to be exposed. does it help the reader?
[21:08] <thorwil> heh, the annotations are awesome
[21:09] <thorwil> godbyk: what's the state of the margins?
[21:10] <godbyk> thorwil: You mean actually stating 'Part I' and 'Part II' on the part pages?  yeah, I'm probably going to remove that or make it less blatant.  I'd also like to spice up those pages by incorporating some design elements from the title page (if it works well)
[21:10] <godbyk> what annotations?
[21:10] <thorwil> orange balloons
[21:11] <godbyk> the margins.. ugh.. every time I sit down to work on them I get distracted. :(  but I need to just set them and be done with it.
[21:11] <godbyk> aha.. yeah, they're fun.
[21:11] <thorwil> godbyk: getting rid of stating part 1/2 would be improvement, but i meant there prsence in the toc and having pages at all
[21:12] <godbyk> oh, gotcha.  I dunno.  I don't really care one way or another.  that's just how it was set up when I showed up.
[21:12] <godbyk> I don't think they're necessary since there's only two of them.
[21:12] <godbyk> and they're not delineating subjects, per se, just 'beginner's stuff' and 'slightly more advanced stuff'.
[21:12] <thorwil> godbyk: the smallest titles could have no margin-bottom, if the are in body size, and the following paragraph has first line indent
[21:12] <godbyk> but it doesn't help the reader much.
[21:13] <thorwil> godbyk: that's my point :)
[21:13] <thorwil> it feels like it was meant for something larger than we actually deal with
[21:14] <thorwil> godbyk: body text lines are slightly on the long side
[21:14] <godbyk> I'll remove the parts and we'll see how it goes.
[21:14] <godbyk> Do you think the sidenotes area should be wider?
[21:15] <thorwil> godbyk: it doesn't need it. not with that text size, at least. it's just that the body text could be faster to read with slightly shorter lines
[21:16] <godbyk> I understand.
[21:16] <godbyk> I'm just flipping through the manual and it looks like the side notes are getting used more frequently than I anticipated.
[21:16] <godbyk> I want to make sure they all fit on the page. :)
[21:17] <godbyk> one thing I could try for the margins/page layout is to split the page into three columns.  then combine the first two columns (and their shared gutter) to form the main text body.  the remaining third column would be the side notes area.
[21:17] <thorwil> godbyk: if you don't do anything else with section numbers (e.g. 3 Working with Ubuntu), you should probably use capital, not text figures there
[21:17]  * godbyk wishes XeLaTeX supported the microtype package.
[21:17] <komsas> godbyk: silly question, but there need the space before \dash tag, like word\dash or word \dash. In some sentences there are space in some not.
[21:18] <thorwil> godbyk: anyway, rock on, i have to go!
[21:18] <godbyk> agreed.  did we ever figure out if we're doing anything with icons per chapter or a fancier chapter heading?
[21:18] <godbyk> komsas: The space before the \dash command isn't necessary.  If there is a space, the \dash command attempts to remove it.  (so it's better without the space, as \dash will add its own space.)
[21:19] <godbyk> komsas: you *do* need a space *after* the \dash command, though.
[21:19] <thorwil> godbyk: no icons, as i just don't think i can do non-silly ones for all cases
[21:20]  * komsas noted
[22:28] <ubuntujenkins> nn o/
[23:55] <godbyk> Hey, jaminday.  You pinged me the other day when I wasn't around.  I don't remember if I ever got back to you on whatever it was. Do you?