[03:40] <koolhead17> hi all
[16:54] <joerg> hi
[16:59] <vmlintu> hi
[16:59] <vmlintu> joerg: have you been working on the portal project you mentioned some time ago?
[17:00] <joerg> sure :)
[17:00] <joerg> hi
[17:01] <joerg> vmlintu, I am just working on it right now.... the thing is, I somehow need more developers and more motivation.
[17:01] <joerg> a project like that is quite hard in the beginning.
[17:02] <joerg> I have written some specs, you know - but they don't attract anybody....
[17:02] <joerg> I guess people want a demo / see some code.
[17:02] <alkisg> Development is the best motivation for the open source world :)
[17:03] <vmlintu> joerg: www.myserv-project.org ?
[17:03] <joerg> yes
[17:03] <alkisg> I've seen many, many many specs in #edubuntu the last years - only 1 or 2 of them got implemented..
[17:03] <joerg> hehe
[17:03] <joerg> alkisg, I am developing for some time now, but it is really hard
[17:04] <joerg> if I had an active community around it, I'd be really motivated and be twice as fast I guess.
[17:05] <alkisg> As sbalneav says, each one scratches his own back... e.g. I'm developing "school-scripts" because I need them, to use them in my classroom
[17:05] <alkisg> So even if I had to do it on my own, I'd still do it
[17:05] <joerg> I need people telling me that they need my work, people who challenge me with new things etc.
[17:05] <alkisg> Did you send an announcment on the mailing list?
[17:05] <joerg> yes......that's different
[17:05] <joerg> I am doing that because I have a vision
[17:06] <joerg> I am not a teacher or a student
[17:06] <joerg> I am just enthusiast :P
[17:06] <alkisg> If you did, and people didn't respond, are you sure that your project fits some existing need?
[17:06] <vmlintu> joerg: I've checked the site a couple of times, but as it uses python, I really cannot say much..
[17:07] <joerg> alkisg, well, ages ago I posted a rough draft.....
[17:07] <joerg> and people like vmlintu responded :)
[17:07] <joerg> but at that stage it was still too early
[17:08] <joerg> vmlintu, you should learn python :) not only to contribute to that project ;) but to make your daily life easier.
[17:08] <vmlintu> I'm more into ruby
[17:12] <vmlintu> joerg: We've been working on a new version of the ldap based user management tool we've been using for schools
[17:12] <joerg> vmlintu, is that web based
[17:12] <joerg> ?
[17:12] <vmlintu> joerg: yep
[17:13] <vmlintu> joerg: hopefully we get it out before lucid
[17:13] <joerg> that is php based?
[17:13] <vmlintu> ruby on rails
[17:14] <joerg> good
[17:14] <joerg> that should mean it has a clear MVC structure and is easy to extend ;)
[17:15] <joerg> in contrast to these php things which do great things but mostly have bad code
[17:15] <vmlintu> we have an old perl catalyst based tool for user management that is now replaced with this
[17:16] <vmlintu> We be using it to handle some hundred schools with 25-30k users
[17:16] <vmlintu> we'll
[17:18] <vmlintu> by default it'll be using openldap + mit kerberos as databases
[17:19] <joerg> is there a demo/preview of it?
[17:19] <vmlintu> there's no public demo yet
[17:23] <joerg> vmlintu, ok....anyway, I am quite sure that we could integrate it in myserv somehow....
[17:24] <joerg> if we extend it to authenticate using CAS, we could load it in an iframe and we'd be done
[17:25] <joerg> that's what I am doing with roundcube webmail at the moment
[17:25] <vmlintu> we are now running rubycas-server with kerberos to provide cas
[17:27] <vmlintu> we've been doing some testing with oauth to provide rest+oauth api for external applications to fetch user information
[17:28] <joerg> vmlintu, why do external apps need to talk to your user management tool? :P
[17:30] <vmlintu> There are some educational applications running in the web that need user information like class level, pupil/teacher, groups.. now they need to import the data using files or setup ldap connections that require firewall changes..
[17:30] <joerg> opensocial is the way to go :P
[17:30] <vmlintu> opensocial uses rest+oauth :)
[17:30] <joerg> yes
[17:31] <vmlintu> implementing opensocial is just 100x more work than simple rest+oauth api
[17:31] <joerg> no, it is not.
[17:31] <joerg> it is 100x less work
[17:31] <vmlintu> ?
[17:31] <vmlintu> rest+oauth was like 30 lines of code with ror
[17:32] <joerg> because the os rest api is well documented and tested - and there are lots of apps already implementing it.
[17:32] <joerg> well, and?
[17:32] <joerg> don't reinvent the wheel :P
[17:33] <joerg> use the structure/methods that opensocial uses
[17:33] <joerg> in your rest api
[17:33] <joerg> choose the methods (e.g. to retrieve user/group info) and implement them in your rest api
[17:34] <joerg> you don't have to fully implement open social
[17:34] <vmlintu> that's what we pretty much did
[17:34] <joerg> yeah, then it is fine.
[17:34] <vmlintu> I just wouldn't call it opensocial unless it's the whole thing
[17:34] <joerg> ok
[17:35] <vmlintu> the user management tool won't implement any of these, anyway
[17:35] <joerg> and I just wanted to say: don't invent another api :P
[17:35] <vmlintu> If we do any of that, it'll be a separate application
[17:36] <vmlintu> google's using saml and that's way more requested feature than opensocial
[17:37] <joerg> sure
[17:37] <joerg> but I am not sure if it takes care of all the other nice things
[17:38] <joerg> like user/app data
[17:38] <joerg> friendships / pictures etc.
[17:39] <joerg> myserv is using it to provide a way to integrate gadgets
[17:39] <vmlintu> friendships are not on our agenda really
[17:39] <joerg> using javascript / iframes
[17:39] <joerg> he he
[17:39] <joerg> well, I have implemented friendships
[17:40] <joerg> because I think it can be helpful
[17:40] <joerg> if you can share files and/or collaborate with a group of people you trust.
[17:42] <vmlintu> we are focusing on the k12 segment, so especially the grades 0-6 don't really benefit from that
[17:43] <vmlintu> we have been thinking about "pre-defined friendships" that would be defined by teachers instead of pupils
[17:44] <vmlintu> harassment by excluding people from group is a real problem in schools, so the tools need to address that
[17:49] <joerg> hmm
[17:49] <vmlintu> Or maybe a facebook application could be used to take care of all that.. Everyone's using it anyway, so bringing information from school to it would be probably easiest..
[17:49] <joerg> you don't have to be friends with everybody, right? :)
[17:49] <joerg> maybe finland is a bit more socialistic :)
[17:50] <vmlintu> in class setting everyone should get along with others, I think
[17:51] <joerg> yes
[17:51] <joerg> so there is a group called "class 5a"
[17:52] <joerg> but if lisa is closer friends with alice and linda it is perfectly okay, isn't it?
[17:53] <vmlintu> I've talked about that here and the opinion seems to be that in that case they are most probably already using facebook or something else for their own stuff
[17:53] <vmlintu> and nobody is going to trust a school-run system for their personal stuff
[17:54] <vmlintu> but like I said, we don't have real plans for this..
[17:54] <joerg> why not?
[17:54] <joerg> my idea in the long run is to replace facebook and all that stuff
[17:54] <vmlintu> you mean trust?
[17:55] <joerg> students have an account at their school
[17:55] <joerg> they need it anyway
[17:55] <joerg> they usually have their friends at the school
[17:55] <joerg> why can't they share (private) stuff there?
[17:55] <joerg> e.g. fotos
[17:55] <vmlintu> not all their friends are in the same school
[17:56] <joerg> I want ppl to say: well, I have a great tool at school, why do I need facebook? :)
[17:56] <joerg> that's true
[17:57] <joerg> but for those who are I want to be better than facebook
[17:57] <vmlintu> it'd most probably work for school related stuff, but I really have doubts about private stuff
[17:57] <vmlintu> (actually here facebook is not dominating, but an older local competitor)
[17:58] <joerg> because I think if a web portal (run by the school) get's a social meeting point for the students, it means that they identify a lot more with school
[17:59] <vmlintu> that thinking is loosing ground over here - the new thinking is that everybody should be able to use their own tools and the school's system should be able to collect the information from all over the net
[18:00] <vmlintu> meaning that if someone wants to use blogger for bloggin and someone else uses facebook for blogging, it should work
[18:01] <vmlintu> personal learning environments are something in that direction
[18:04] <joerg> lool
[18:04] <joerg> a lesson has 45 minutes here
[18:05] <joerg> if the project is to write a blog about something and people are using 5-10 different tools
[18:05] <joerg> and the teacher only knows one of them
[18:05] <joerg> that means 2/3 of the time will be wasted on technical stuff
[18:06] <joerg> instead of producing content.
[18:06] <joerg> we have had that issue a lot of times.
[18:06] <joerg> it doesn't work.
[18:06] <joerg> that's why most of the schools tell their students and teachers:
[18:07] <joerg> we have ONE tool to make a presentation and that is called openoffice.org impress
[18:07] <Ahmuck> i agree. setting the tools for an organization is the only way to go
[18:07] <joerg> and if people don't have it at home, they can get a copy of it at school
[18:07] <joerg> on their flash drive
[18:07] <joerg> and if they prefer powerpoint
[18:07] <joerg> they can use it at home
[18:08] <vmlintu> the idea behind ple's is that the platform aggregates the content using rss/atom/whatever..
[18:08] <joerg> and it is their responsability that it runs with openoffice
[18:08] <joerg> yes, I understand.
[18:08] <joerg> maybe in finland things are different.
[18:08] <alkisg> joerg: where is that?
[18:09] <joerg> but here, teachers are happy if they more or less know ONE tool
[18:09] <joerg> there is no money for system administration and maintenance
[18:09] <joerg> and teachers are not educated in IT concepts
[18:09] <joerg> alkisg, germany
[18:10] <alkisg> Nice, I didn't know openoffice was so widespread there...
[18:11] <joerg> alkisg, I don't say it is wide spread
[18:12] <joerg> it is up to the school
[18:13] <joerg> I am freelancing for an organization that takes care of the IT infrastructure of 200 schools here
[18:13] <joerg> the townships usually have contracts with us
[18:13] <joerg> and they pay a certain amount per student/per year to us
[18:14] <joerg> of course schools can buy a MS office license from microsoft
[18:14] <joerg> that's up to them.
[18:15] <joerg> but we don't spend a single cent on proprietary software we provide to the schools
[18:15] <joerg> open office is good enough.
[18:15] <joerg> and everybody can have it
[18:15] <joerg> no matter if daddy is a rich manager or a poor worker :P
[18:17] <joerg> and well, the PLE stuff is nice
[18:17] <joerg> but that would mean students and teachers (!) would need to have an understanding of the technologies.
[18:25] <vmlintu> ok, I'm back..
[18:26] <vmlintu> over here quite a few schools are using moodle, but not all.. some use blogger or other blogging services and some use other learning environments
[18:27] <vmlintu> and I've been hearing people talking about mahara lately
[18:27] <vmlintu> that means that if we provide schools a portal, it'll be definitely different from the tools they are already using and the next school won't agree with the tools anyway
[18:28] <vmlintu> that's why we are not doing any end-user services, but only administration tools and backend services for the actualy tools used by the end-users
[18:30] <vmlintu> an aggregator that would collect content from different tools could be a solution here
[18:31] <vmlintu> So basically the solution would be that the school has a default set of tools (for example moodle + blogger + teachertube) that is taught, but you can use other tools if you know them already
[18:33] <joerg> hehe
[18:33] <joerg> schools here never heard of moodle mostly :P
[18:33] <joerg> apart from that, moodle speaks CAS and can use an ldap db
[18:33] <joerg> so wouldn't be a problem to integrate that in a myserv portal
[18:36] <vmlintu> moodle is not exactly that great tool, imho
[18:37] <vmlintu> it's better than the old competitors that it replaced, but it's way too teacher-centric
[18:40] <joerg> most of that stuff is simply overkill for our schools
[18:40] <joerg> they want to upload files somewhere
[18:40] <joerg> and they want to write e-mails
[18:41] <vmlintu> here some are starting to use dropbox to upload files
[18:41] <joerg> and the very advanced users use a wiki to collect results
[18:41] <joerg> one out of 50 teachers :D
[18:41] <joerg> you can do that
[18:41] <joerg> if you have enough bandwidth
[18:42] <vmlintu> what kind of connections the schools have there?
[18:42] <joerg> with an ISDN line or a slow DSL you know what happens
[18:42] <joerg> if 25 users upload their documents
[18:42] <joerg> you have to ask people to start uploading 30 minutes before the lesson ends ;)
[18:43] <joerg> some still have ISDN (128k up/dn)
[18:43] <vmlintu> that can be a problem then.. I thought that 2/1 adsl is bad..
[18:43] <joerg> DSL 2048k dn/196k up
[18:44] <joerg> schools having 512k up are very lucky
[18:46] <vmlintu> here many of the schools have 100Mbps fiber to city network that has 10 or 20Mbps internet connection
[18:46] <vmlintu> some have 100Mbps internet
[18:47] <vmlintu> it seems like the background is quite different - we have tons of existing tools that should be supported and more bandwidth - you have no existing tools and less bandwidth
[18:47] <vmlintu> there are already schools that are using google apps for all their classroom work..
[19:26] <joerg> vmlintu, anyway....we more or less have the same concept
[19:26] <joerg> but we focus on both local and external services
[19:26] <vmlintu> yes, the basic concept is pretty much the same
[19:26] <joerg> I see the myserv portal as the integrator: it provides a CAS auth server, users can create a profile there, users can found groups
[19:27] <joerg> and in their user and groups profiles they can do "things"
[19:27] <joerg> like adding one of the apps you mentioned
[19:27] <joerg> like an externally hosted blog
[19:27] <joerg> or wiki
[19:28] <joerg> or a vocabulary trainer
[19:28] <joerg> whatever.
[19:28] <vmlintu> who creates the user accounts?
[19:28] <joerg> the only important thing is that the app "speaks" oauth/cas and opensocial
[19:29] <joerg> if it wants to retrieve information about anything
[19:29] <joerg> the admins do
[19:30] <joerg> django has a nice admin interface
[19:30] <joerg> if the users are in ldap, we don't have a solution yet.
[19:30] <joerg> they would need to use whatever ldap user management tool
[19:31] <joerg> a primary school won't need ldap
[19:32] <joerg> that's why I don't want to marry ldap :P but only provide is as an option.
[19:32] <vmlintu> we are using ldap for every single school
[19:32] <joerg> lol
[19:32] <joerg> we have primary schools with ten user accounts here
[19:32] <joerg> for what reason should they run ldap?
[19:32] <vmlintu> setting up a system without ldap takes way more time than with it
[19:33] <vmlintu> as all schools use the same user management tool, we can support them better
[19:45] <joerg> sorry
[19:46] <joerg> vmlintu, we don't have resources to support schools managing users :P
[19:46] <joerg> and if they have ten users and only use that web app
[19:47] <joerg> we won't run and maintain an ldap installation for them
[19:47] <joerg> it is just another thing to maintain and keep running
[19:47] <joerg> and another DB to backup
[19:48] <joerg> and the advantage is: none
[19:48] <vmlintu> we are actually taking care of all the server management, so the schools don't even have to know that they have ldap..
[19:49] <joerg> yeah
[19:49] <joerg> exactly
[19:49] <vmlintu> and training for user management tools is part of the service.. and helpdesk they can call
[19:50] <joerg> they won't know it
[19:50] <joerg> so there is no need to do that additional work
[19:50] <joerg> will not be of any use for them.
[19:50] <joerg> the web portal has user and group management in the postgres DB
[19:50] <vmlintu> what additional work do you mean?
[19:50] <joerg> that's perfectly ok for a system with ten users and no additional services
[19:51] <joerg> additional work means: setting up slapd, running slapd, backing up slapd
[19:52] <vmlintu> yes, in some cases ldap does not bring any features that would be needed, but in our case running some systems without ldap would make everything much harder
[19:52] <joerg> hmm
[19:52] <vmlintu> Now we have tons of identical servers that can be managed exactly the same way
[19:53] <vmlintu> and slapd installation is fully automated with everything else
[19:53] <joerg> and we will have 10-20 servers with a big ldap DB
[19:53] <joerg> and 130 servers with just the webapp
[19:53] <joerg> and a DB to backup
[19:54] <vmlintu> we are using the same backup system for all the servers with identical settings
[19:54] <joerg> probably these 130 servers will just be one or two big root servers in some data center
[19:55] <vmlintu> and now that I remember, we need to be running kerberos anyway for the desktop, so ldap comes with it
[19:56] <joerg> finland must be a rich country :P
[19:56] <joerg> how many schools do you support?
[19:57] <vmlintu> over 100 now
[19:57] <joerg> ok. how many full time jobs do you have for that?
[19:58] <vmlintu> setting up a server with automatic tools takes about 30 minutes now.. with ldap+kerberos+web tools+desktop+ltsp
[19:59] <joerg> ok
[19:59] <joerg> mostly you just enter the domain name and a root password :D
[20:00] <vmlintu> we install also the networks and thin clients and give training to teachers and pupils
[20:00] <joerg> just tell me how many full time jobs you have to support these 100 schools.
[20:01] <vmlintu> 5
[20:01] <joerg> you see
[20:01] <joerg> we have 200 schools and two.
[20:02] <joerg> actually 150 over years
[20:02] <vmlintu> what I'm trying to say is that if some of the servers didn't have ldap, we'd need one or two more to support all..
[20:02] <joerg> but now there's a new contract with some townships
[20:02] <joerg> and we will have 200 very soon
[20:02] <joerg> because that's the only way to hold the 2nd full time job.
[20:03] <vmlintu> what are the thing you charge for?
[20:03] <vmlintu> things
[20:04] <vmlintu> I've understood that you don't provide the desktop itself?
[20:04] <joerg> put a hard disk image on and old computer
[20:04] <joerg> driving there
[20:04] <joerg> setup the "server" there
[20:04] <joerg> driving away and hoping that the hard disk will never fail :)
[20:05] <joerg> it's basically just setting up a filtered proxy, mail, file and print server
[20:05] <joerg> and taking that machine and bring it there.
[20:06] <joerg> no clients :P
[20:06] <vmlintu> ok, that's quite different from what we do.. we don't provide mail and pretty much nobody wants filtering
[20:06] <joerg> lol?
[20:06] <vmlintu> linux thin client desktops are the main thing
[20:06] <joerg> so people are allowed to download porn and so on? :D
[20:08] <joerg> we MUST filter the internet, because law requires that.
[20:08] <vmlintu> I think the reason is that all the filters are so bad that they just encourage the kids to find ways around them..
[20:08] <joerg> absolutely true
[20:09] <joerg> we use squidguard with blacklists
[20:09] <joerg> it is not that bad
[20:09] <vmlintu> all the blacklists we have tried also give a lot of false positives
[20:10] <joerg> why?
[20:10] <vmlintu> teaching russian is not fun when half of the sites are blocked..
[20:10] <joerg> hmm
[20:10] <vmlintu> a lot of video and image sites are also listed
[20:10] <joerg> nobody teaches russian here ^^
[20:10] <vmlintu> we need to support russian keyboards on most systems..
[20:11] <joerg> didn't know that there's such a deep "friendship" between finnish and russians ^^
[20:12] <joerg> I thought you hate them
[20:12] <vmlintu> and one of the worst filters filtered all the sites that had "sex" in the name.. it just means number 6 in swedish..
[20:14] <joerg> I know
[20:14] <joerg> that's why we just use these blacklists and that's it
[20:15] <joerg> we are not filtering for any keywords or so
[20:17] <vmlintu> we have now more or less working blacklist for the ones who want it, but most schools have unfiltered access
[20:18] <vmlintu> btw, have you checked the tools like elgg or buddypress?
[20:19] <joerg> well
[20:19] <joerg> elgg yes
[20:20] <joerg> didn't like the code
[20:20] <joerg> didn't know how to make that run opensocial apps
[20:20] <joerg> auth with CAS
[20:20] <joerg> and stuff
[20:24] <joerg> these tools all don't provide that pluggable concept
[20:24] <joerg> the idea of a big integrator portal
[20:26] <joerg> I want to be able to say: today we are running our photo blogging app locally, tomorrow we have enough bandwidth and it will be hosted externally without the users noticing anything.
[20:26] <joerg> these tools are all very nice as a standalone solution.
[20:27] <vmlintu> what's your plan, do you plan on supporting multiple schools/organisations from a single installation?
[20:28] <joerg> but they don't provide the flexiblity of being the portal that is like a bolt tying all these already existing apps together
[20:28] <joerg> yes, that might happen in the future.
[20:29] <joerg> but not for now.
[20:29] <vmlintu> ok
[20:29] <joerg> but I could imagine that there's a library app for example hosted centrally
[20:29] <joerg> there are a lot of good open source opac / library tools
[20:30] <joerg> that could be on a central server
[20:30] <joerg> only one instance
[20:30] <vmlintu> I mean the portal - if you are going to run single instance to run the different portals for 100 schools if the network allows it
[20:30] <joerg> using oauth/cas they'd be logged in automatically
[20:30] <joerg> and could manage their books there
[20:30] <joerg> thinking that's "their" library
[20:31] <joerg> but in fact, they are just feeding a big catalogue.
[20:31] <joerg> yes, as I said.
[20:31] <joerg> we gonna do that
[20:31] <joerg> as long as the bandwidth is so bad that we have to run local servers.
[20:32] <joerg> if it is getting better the school will simply have a VPN router and that's it.
[20:39] <vmlintu> ok, it sounds like the "portal" part that connects the applications is the same for both..
[20:39] <vmlintu> user management is different
[20:41] <vmlintu> providing any end-user services is not in our interest, so having the other portal features is not something we need