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Guest79195hey ubunteros09:09
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keesmdeslaur: quick meeting?17:00
mdeslaurgood morning kees!17:00
keesmorning!  :)17:00
keesheya jjohansen17:00
mdeslaurhi jjohansen17:00
keesokay, this week will see a kernel security publication.  builds went fine over the weekend.17:01
mdeslaurjust in time for the next one :)17:01
keesafter that, there are a few embargoed things to do this week.17:01
keesI got a bit behind on community bits while racing the beta freeze17:01
mdeslauryeah, I'll handle the community stuff this week17:02
keesbeyond that, nothing jumps out at me.17:02
mdeslaurthere's quite a few thingies17:02
mdeslaurI'm working on libpng and will probably look at samba too17:02
mdeslaurthat's about it from me17:04
keesjjohansen: got anything?17:04
keesanyone else have stuff for the security team?17:05
jjohansennot really, we need to sit down and setup security tests for EC2 sometime but that isn't urgent17:05
keesjjohansen: ah yeah.  just let me know when you've got an instance up, and we can poke around at it.  maybe get kirkland to help us with the screen/account sharing17:06
keesalrighty then.  thanks everyone, meeting done.  :)17:06
jjohansenwoot, short and sweet17:06
kirklandjjohansen: kees: happy to help17:06
jjohansenkirkland: thanks17:07
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doctormohey gang22:56
* pleia2 waves22:58
Pendulumhi pleia2, doctormo22:58
MootBotMeeting started at 18:00. The chair is pleia2.23:00
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]23:00
ZachK_Yo hommiea23:00
pleia2ok folks, welcome to the Ubuntu Community Learning Project meeting :)23:00
pleia2our agenda is up here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/Agenda23:00
* doctormo waves23:00
pleia2we'll give people a couple minutes to arrive, first item on the agenda is nigelb's and it doesn't look like he's around yet23:01
* cprofitt reads the agenda23:01
bodhi_zazenWhy do we not skip to #2 then ?23:01
pleia2well, it looks like the whole board is here so we can just start with #223:02
cprofittjust tried to raise nigel in UBT channel23:02
pleia2[TOPIC] Team Structure23:02
MootBotNew Topic:  Team Structure23:02
doctormopleia2: you or I?23:03
pleia2doctormo: you touched base with everyone, so I think you should23:03
doctormoOK, so we've been having a go at the learning/educational problem for ubuntu for about a year23:03
humphreybchope i be not too late23:04
doctormoWe set up a board which encompassed the primary go getters of the project's inception.23:04
pleia2humphreybc: just getting started :)23:04
doctormoIn time we found that each of our goals and directions was different, complimentary, but differing.23:04
doctormoThis lead to misunderstandings, the project moving in multiple directions and in the end a demoralising effect.23:05
doctormoWe want to fix this problem, and at it's core is this multiple goal problem.23:05
ZachK_doctormo: Sounds like you need a common goal23:06
VantraxZachK_, hes getting to that23:06
doctormoThe proposition is this: That the UCLP project move from being a project and into being a social hub. From here we have our 3 main projects.23:06
humphreybcZachK_: I think they have a common goal, but differing ways of reaching it23:06
Vantraxthose projects are defined as?23:07
doctormoEach project should be lead and directed by the people most keen on that area, in a way and with rules that are suitable for that project.23:07
Vantraxwith some sort of commonality and oversight?23:07
bodhi_zazensocial hub , lol, no offense, but it made me laugh23:07
ZachK_Agreed bodhi_zazen23:08
doctormo1. Materials for Educational establishments, published in the most compelling way for schools to adopt.23:08
doctormo2. Course materials, the writing of new material, lesson plans.23:08
VantraxSocial hub might be the wrong term, but it is not a bad idea23:09
doctormo3. The organisation of teaching in the ubuntu community it's self, IRC, LoCo physical classrooms etc23:09
Vantraxstrike that, probably is the wrong idea23:09
humphreybcI think what Martin means is to move away from the board idea23:09
doctormoVantrax: There would be no oversight, these projects would be seperate, the leadership would be accountable to their contributors only.23:09
humphreybcboards, when they don't work, are as productive as a cow turd in a paddock23:09
Vantraxhumphreybc, they work well for lighting fires tho23:10
pleia2"Learning" would be a hub were people can come to seek out these materials and get in touch with each of them23:10
cprofittso we have three sep. projects... under an umbrella idea of UCLP?23:10
pleia2cprofitt: *nod*23:10
cprofitteach 'project' would have its own leadership23:10
cprofittand own members23:10
doctormoOf course nothing is to stop people being members of all23:10
doctormoBut the project's rules can be different23:11
doctormoFor example23:11
doctormoThe conflict over licensing23:11
cprofittAs far as resources... this might be an issue... or not...23:11
doctormoThe contributors project (2) needs to have strict licensing.23:11
ZachK_What about documentation?23:11
doctormobut the publishing project (1) and the events project (3) need not be so strict.23:11
pleia2ZachK_: the project is about course development, the ubuntu-docs team is for straight documentation23:12
cprofittwould both the teaching and the edu team need their own Moodle servers if they planned to use Moodle or would they still share one?23:12
bodhi_zazenWhich project would use Moodle ?23:12
doctormocprofitt: Volunteers aren't resources, they'll come to the thing they're most interested in or where they see a need, I see no difference in this.23:12
pleia2bodhi_zazen: 123:12
bodhi_zazenin terms of contributing to courses and admin a moodle site23:12
cprofittdoctormo: not talking about 'people' -- the Moodle server.23:12
doctormobodhi_zazen: 1. is more likely to use moodle, 3 could possibly.23:12
doctormocprofitt: I'm sure moodle servers can be set up, we have multiple sysadmins, if ever it became an issue.23:13
cprofittin our original view Moodle courses were going to be for both Asychronous and Sychronous courses23:13
bodhi_zazenI do not mean use moodle from a user perspective23:13
cprofittso a Moodle course might also have an IRC component...23:13
bodhi_zazenI mean course content and organization23:13
cprofittand an IRC course may have a Moodle component23:13
doctormoOf course any of the project's can do their own writing, can get their source material from anywhere.23:13
cprofittthat is why I was asking about the Moodle server23:13
ZachK_nigelb: Is here!23:14
* pleia2 nods at doctormo 23:14
pleia2so the projects will certainly collaborate a lot23:14
doctormoSo, it's likely that we'd fall into our perspective projects and be able to focus on them full throttle without having to throttle someone going somewhere else.23:15
bodhi_zazenA server != Moodle, on a server one can use any number of methods, moodle is, IMO, a specific method of content presentation, I do not think were are talking sys admin of apache here , lol23:15
cprofittwould the 3. team share the moodle server with the 1. team?23:15
pleia2cprofitt: if they want, if they're unwilling or unable 3 could have the option of hosting one too23:15
doctormocprofitt: That's up to 3 and 1 projects to discuss and come to arangements about.23:15
doctormocprofitt: although I stress that no project is bound to any tech if they don't want to use it.23:16
cprofittso we gain some autonomy... but could (key word could) lose some cooperation23:16
pleia2bodhi_zazen: assuming #1 has a moodle server, it's up to them to decide who has duties like being the sysadmin23:16
doctormoIt's the leadership that is responsibile for defning that.23:16
cprofittI would not want anyone to be bound to anything23:16
bodhi_zazenI think it is a good idea to split off those who wish to run Moodle from the rest23:16
doctormocprofitt: We would gain autonomy and I think we have pathways which can bind our cooperation.23:17
bodhi_zazenthis does not, as doctormo says, mean we can not work together23:17
cprofittone of the things that happened with UCLP is that when the UFBT (not the UBT) started developing this idea in the EDU Focus Group we saw Moodle as the primary vehicle... which as you said has changed...23:17
bodhi_zazenbut moodle is a very specific platform, imo, with unique requirements that do not always meet the broader goals23:17
cprofittI just want to ensure that each group has the resources to do what they need23:18
pleia2cprofitt: it was never my intention as part of UBFT EDU focus group to use moodle, I was always interested in -classroom and loco23:18
bodhi_zazenfor example a moodle project does not need to mandate ascii docs or bzr23:18
cprofittI agree that with what the UCLP developed in to that Moodle did not meet broader goals23:18
doctormoOh humphreybc above, he's here from the Ubuntu Manual team, wants to learn and collaborate some more.23:18
pleia2so it hasn't "changed" - we all started with differing goals23:18
humphreybchi everyone :)23:18
cprofittpleia2: It was the initial intention of the UFBT EDU FG to use Moodle23:19
humphreybchow are you guys going for material?23:19
cprofittI know... because the EDU FG was me... and later Vantrax and I23:19
pleia2cprofitt: ah, it had moved on from there by the time I joinde :)23:19
cprofittbut as you said you had a different intent23:19
bodhi_zazenI agree with cprofitt23:19
doctormohumphreybc: We can get to that after the org stuff23:19
cprofittas did Doctormo23:19
pleia2I joined EDU via -classroom23:19
bodhi_zazenthe goals of this team were eatablished by the UBT, EDU FG23:19
bodhi_zazenOther people joined the project with different goals and took the project away from the original set of goals23:20
bodhi_zazenIMO at leasta23:20
cprofitt... so to be clear we would be splitting off the groups we originally brought together23:20
pleia2bodhi_zazen: so would you see #1 as "Moodle" ?23:20
doctormoAye, I agree bodhi_zazen23:20
bodhi_zazenI see Moodle as a separate project, call it what you will23:20
cprofittin the interest of serving the community better...23:20
pleia2I was invited to EDU with my classroom work, I think it's a bit unfair to say that I "took the project away"23:20
cprofittand instead of having a tight integration it would be more loose.23:21
doctormocprofitt: We'd be making autonomous the leadership, disolving the board and basically making UCLP an umbrella.23:21
bodhi_zazenbut working on a moodle server has not been the priority of the UCLP23:21
* cprofitt nods doctormo 23:21
pleia2regardless, would we agree that having one section devoted to "Moodle" is appropriate?23:21
cprofittI can see that.23:21
bodhi_zazenthe UCLP is interested in implementing such material, and others, to set up actual classrooms, which is related, but also different23:21
pleia2maybe have the original old UBT crew run that? ( cprofitt, Vantrax and bodhi_zazen )23:21
doctormopleia2: That's really up to the leaders of that project I think.23:21
cprofittpleia2: I think a dedication to Moodle (or some other LMS) would be most appropriate23:21
cprofittI hesitate to lock us in to Moodle forever, but a great deal of time and testing was put in to choose Moodle23:22
VantraxI think the idea was, and still is, to have efforts to educate users about Ubuntu to have a common point23:22
cprofittso in a broad sense I think the titles you originally chose are acceptable...23:22
bodhi_zazenThere are other similar platforms to moodle, and we are not stuck on that specific platform ...23:22
pleia2ok, so a group devoted to delivering course material in a format for educational institutes, for which right now the vest vehicle is Moodle23:22
bodhi_zazenbut the general concept ...23:22
doctormoSo UCLP can retain some broad goals (sort of like the UN) and the projects have their narrow focus that they can run with.23:23
cprofitt1. = Asychronous education with a focus towards methods used by traditional educational institutions including virtual K-12 and higher ed23:23
pleia2cprofitt: +123:23
VantraxWe do need come commonality in the way things are done, else it becomes confusing, especially for a new user looking for help and information23:23
doctormoVantrax: Educating ubuntu users, that's project 3.23:23
cprofittdoctormo: I think 3. is not juse educating Ubuntu users23:23
Vantraxdoctormo, how is it just 3?23:23
cprofittor there will be a cross between 1 and 323:24
pleia2there is some cross between 1 and 323:24
cprofittit is more a focus on sychronous learning environments23:24
doctormoVantrax: Well 2. isn't likely to interact with users directly.23:24
Vantraxno, but that is still the focus of it23:24
cprofitt3 would be in-person or IRC type sychronouse education efforts23:24
Vantraxthat is the goal, the reason for producing the content23:24
cprofitt... to sum up if I can23:24
cprofittfeel free to tear down23:24
bodhi_zazenThe teams as proposed will need to work together in some extent, and using this channel or others to coordinate would be fantastic23:24
pleia2cprofitt: please go ahead23:24
Vantraxthis distinction is largely academic, and all at the back end.23:24
doctormoVantrax: Not quite, it may be the reason of some contributors to write, but the writing is a goal unto it's self.23:24
cprofitt1.  = Asynchronous23:25
cprofitt3. = Synchronous23:25
bodhi_zazenfor example, if a course if developed for -classroom, they may want to use the content on the moodle server, or not23:25
cprofitt2. = overall documentation and tools on how to produce courses23:25
bodhi_zazenand they may have content to add to the moodle server, or not23:25
doctormocprofitt: yes23:25
pleia2cprofitt: yep!23:25
doctormobodhi_zazen: Yes, and the moodle server can take material from multiple sources.23:26
doctormobodhi_zazen: Since I can forsee that course material writing won't focus on applications.23:26
pleia2bodhi_zazen: and I agree entirely, we'll work together a lot, the separate is exclusively to have several strong teams with clear goals, rather than one weak one fighting over primary goals23:26
bodhi_zazenI would support that, as I feel a moodle server takes a fair amount of attention23:26
Vantraxthe key is to coordinate those three projects so they appear transparently to someone who puts in a live CD and wants information23:26
pleia2Vantrax: right, which is why "Learning" as an umbrella will still exist23:27
bodhi_zazenIn an ideal world, let us imaging doctormo wants to run a course on Apache admin ...23:27
bodhi_zazenHe may start with wiki and moodle server23:27
Vantraxand the point of learn.ubuntu.com23:27
bodhi_zazenand may use existing docs23:27
bodhi_zazenor he may make his own and contribute back in a format to either wiki or moodle23:28
bodhi_zazensomething like that ?23:28
pleia2well, probably s/wiki/bzr+asciidoc23:28
doctormobodhi_zazen: Yes23:28
pleia2but yes23:28
bodhi_zazenThe moodle folks can then decide if they can or want to add an apache course, and hopefully they would23:29
bodhi_zazenso ...23:29
doctormoVantrax: I think learn.ubuntu.com would be a good place to put user facing, community courses, with large buttons to 'contribute to writing' and 'educational institutions go here'23:29
doctormoBut that's totally up for debate.23:29
bodhi_zazenNext time pleia2 wants to -classroom apache she will not potentially find most of the work done and go from there ?23:29
Vantraxthat would be what I would think23:29
pleia2bodhi_zazen: yep23:30
cprofittso... what becomes of learn.ubuntu.com?23:30
bodhi_zazenI think splitting makes the most sense23:30
pleia2cprofitt: I agree with doctormo's plan23:30
cprofittis it a shared site... or controlled by 1 or 323:30
pleia2shared site pointing to different sections of the project23:30
VantraxI dont think it s a split as much as having focus groups working on specific projects as part of a broader effort23:31
cprofittwhat address would we give the LMS?23:31
bodhi_zazenNo, it is a split23:31
Vantraxcprofitt, learn.ubuntu.com23:31
pleia2Vantrax: it's a split because the council will dissolve23:31
pleia2no oversight between teams23:31
bodhi_zazena split in leadership and specific teams23:31
cprofittVantrax: with the exception that there is no leadership above the projects23:31
cprofitteach project would be its own23:31
cprofittso the LMS would be at learn.ubuntu.com - confirm pleia2, doctormo, bodhi_zazen23:32
bodhi_zazenLMS ?23:32
Vantraxlearning management system23:32
Vantraxie moodle23:32
Vantraxor one of a half dozen others23:32
bodhi_zazenIMO we should make a front page w/ links to resouces23:32
bodhi_zazenso moodle would be at23:32
doctormoVantrax: I think that course writing has no claim on the domain.23:32
pleia2cprofitt: no, learn.ubuntu.com would probably be a static page saying "click here for moodle" "click here to develop courses" etc23:33
pleia2"click here to teach your loco members! :)23:33
doctormoBut a contribute to writing link would be most welcome.23:33
bodhi_zazenPeople could have learn.ubuntu.com/foo or they could have independent servers, such as wiki, which we would then linky to23:33
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cprofittdo we have to get approval again for the domain from Canonical since the concept has changed?23:33
bodhi_zazenor irc / forums for support questions23:33
pleia2cprofitt: canonical has not actually given us the domain yet, we still have to go through an approval process23:34
doctormocprofitt: possible.23:34
bodhi_zazenno, we need to present a working project to Canonical for final approval23:34
cprofittit sounds like learn.ubuntu.com may not even be needed -- the wiki can serve as a sign post23:34
bodhi_zazenwhen we are ready they will review the project23:34
doctormoI think one of the projects should go after the domain and the others simply get good linking from the front page. That way the approval process doesn't need a central gov.23:35
Vantraxcprofitt, the idea was to use learn.ubuntu as its a big signpost that is easy to find, and linked from the front page of the Ubuntu.com site23:35
cprofittVantrax: ok23:35
pleia2doctormo: yeah, would probably make sense for the moodle people to have it, since they'll have need for a webserver anyway23:35
cprofittI know when discussed with dinda in the past it was the Moodle site23:35
humphreybclearn.ubuntu.com is good23:35
pleia2but the front page must reference everyone :)23:35
cprofittbut in the end it does not matter23:35
bodhi_zazenIMO a front page would be best, it is most flexible23:35
Vantraxand the idea pitched for that was to use it as a online learning portal for people learning to use ubuntu.23:35
cprofittin general I think a front page controlled by Canonical with links makes the most sense23:36
bodhi_zazenIt is trivial to update a index.html or index.php23:36
doctormoOK pleia2, would you like to put in a deccission for the meeting?23:36
bodhi_zazenharder to customize moodle23:36
doctormoSo we can talk more about the intreseting implications. :-D23:36
cprofittit allows for each project to control their server and not deal with what, I have heard, is a sometimes slow process to have Canonical make changes23:36
Vantraxbodhi_zazen, moodle is index.php:P23:36
pleia2ok, shall we vote to split?23:36
bodhi_zazenyes =)23:36
doctormoone last vote for the road.23:36
* cprofitt motions to vote on dissalution of the board and UCLP23:37
Vantraxid rather not have canonical run the learn.ubuntu.com page23:37
bodhi_zazenbut that does not mean it is easy to re write the moodle front page, lol23:37
pleia2[VOTE] Dissolve board and split the team into Asynchronous, Synchronous and overall documentation and tools on how to produce courses Sections23:37
MootBotPlease vote on:  Dissolve board and split the team into Asynchronous, Synchronous and overall documentation and tools on how to produce courses Sections.23:37
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot23:37
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting23:37
MootBot+1 received from pleia2. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 123:37
MootBot+1 received from bodhi_zazen. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 223:37
MootBot+1 received from cprofitt. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 323:37
MootBot+1 received from doctormo. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 423:37
MootBot+1 received from Vantrax. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 523:38
MootBotFinal result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 523:38
pleia2hooray :)23:38
humphreybcwell, that was nice23:38
doctormoOK, time to move the code branches to a new owner... ->23:38
pleia2we can worry about the domain later23:38
pleia2do we need to talk at all right now about who is leading up which of these new sections?23:38
bodhi_zazenVantrax: and cprofitt either of you two interested in discussing a moodle project ?23:38
cprofittso we will delete the UCLP LP team or leave it?23:38
doctormohttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning will have to be a signpost23:38
bodhi_zazendelete it , IMO23:39
doctormoSo we'll get the course writing stuff moved.23:39
cprofittbodhi_zazen: I think you, I and Vantrax (if he is interested) should discuss the Moodle site.23:39
bodhi_zazenWe should set a time23:39
cprofittthat was our part of this baby to begin with...23:39
pleia2[TOPIC] Initial "split" delegation23:39
MootBotNew Topic:  Initial "split" delegation23:39
pleia2doctormo has primarily been in charge of course development, so I tihnk it goes without saying that he takes that23:40
doctormoIt's pretty much obvious that I'll be SABD for course writing. Although I'm trying to come up with a catchy name.23:40
pleia2(I'll be involved with that too, but I'm a vollower there :))23:40
pleia2follower, gah, typing23:40
Vantraxpleia2, you want to update dinda on how we are going to move forward?23:40
bodhi_zazenpleia2: what project are you taking ?23:40
pleia2bodhi_zazen: I'll gather my Classroom troops for #323:40
Vantraxso all the projects go back to how they were before we dragged em all in?23:41
bodhi_zazenNo, and yes23:41
bodhi_zazenthere should be better cooperation then there was B$23:41
cprofittbodhi_zazen: Vantrax: https://launchpad.net/ubuntueduproject23:42
pleia2[ACTION] Loose delegation: #1: bodhi_zazen, cprofitt, Vantrax; #2: doctormo; #3 pleia223:42
MootBotACTION received:  Loose delegation: #1: bodhi_zazen, cprofitt, Vantrax; #2: doctormo; #3 pleia223:42
cprofittthat was a project I created a while back23:42
pleia2doctormo: I think nigelb's topic can be bumped into your project's court23:43
doctormoSo this comes down to meetings23:43
doctormoWe'll probably be organising our own project's meetings23:43
cprofittVantrax: bodhi_zazen: that is the team -- that has some educators in it already23:44
Vantraxit was fun while it lasted, lets all get back to what we do best and try and work together better23:45
pleia2any other topics to discuss right now?23:45
* cprofitt nods23:45
Vantraxi hope that as classroom and the loco groups develop content it will filter upstream to the moodle site so we can format and add it23:45
cprofittwe are good thanks pleia223:46
Vantraxso it can be used again23:46
humphreybci'll ask again23:46
humphreybchow are you guys for material?23:46
cprofittif anyone wishes to discuss some of the moodle (lms) issue please join ##ubuntu-edu23:46
pleia2humphreybc: for me it's a bit early to say23:46
Vantraxhumphreybc, so who we talking to now23:46
pleia2I have a backlog of material from Ubuntu User Days23:47
humphreybcVantrax: ?23:47
humphreybcwell, the manual project has a truckload of material23:47
Vantraxhumphreybc, materials for what, in context and purpose23:47
doctormohumphreybc: please come to #ubuntu-learning-courses if you want to talk abut writing collab.23:47
humphreybcVantrax, https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual23:47
humphreybcor, wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual23:48
pleia2ok, so I see the subchannels being:23:48
VantraxI think there was always an intention to repackage/rewrite materials from the ubuntu manual for an online and interactive method of learning23:48
humphreybcwell that's good23:49
duanedesigni was gonna ask about the irc channels :) ive just seen two mentioned and neither are the one i have used in the past for UCLP23:49
duanedesignwill 1, 2, 3 each have a channel?23:49
pleia2#1 ##ubuntu-edu; #2 #ubuntu-learning-courses23:49
pleia2and #3 will probably be a mix23:50
_marx_downsteam: how to get this out to LoCo's23:50
pleia2-learning itself, #ubuntu-classroom-backstage23:50
duanedesignthank you pleia223:50
pleia2and wherever else we spread our magic :)23:50
duanedesignlol, nice23:50
pleia2ok, I'll wrap this up then23:50
pleia2thanks everyone :)23:50
MootBotMeeting finished at 18:51.23:51
Vantraxso long and thanks for all the fish23:51
doctormoThanks guys!23:57
humphreybci'm pimping my server23:58
humphreybcthat was the wrong convo :)23:58

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