[02:23] Okay, I added some of ubuntujenkins' screenshots to the manuao for testing. What do you guys think? http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual.pdf [02:24] See pages 24, 70, 76, 80, 88, and 94. [04:03] should we have a meeting this weekend? [04:09] humphreybc: what are the upcoming deadlines? [04:09] content freeze this sunday [04:09] writing freeze ten days after that [04:09] humphreybc: also, did you see the screenshots in the manual? what do you think? [04:09] those screenshots look good [04:09] heh [04:09] probably a good idea to have a meeting then. [04:09] evince sucks at rendering them at 100%, better at 150% [04:10] k [04:10] that's an evince problem right? [04:12] humphreybc: I think so. sudo apt-get install acroread and then run acroread and open the pdf. see how it looks there. [04:12] no such package? [04:13] it's in the partner repositories. [04:13] hmm [04:13] how do I enable them? [04:13] i have all of them enabled in software sources [04:14] not sure, I've had it forever. :) [04:14] hold on. [04:15] oh wait [04:15] found it [04:15] "other software" [04:15] https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/acroread [04:15] yea [04:16] you can also try xpdf for another pdf viewer. [04:22] righto [04:22] is the whole shithouse images a reported bug in evince? [04:23] I dunno [04:23] darn. i was under the impression you knew everything [04:23] !evince [04:23] Factoid 'evince' not found [04:23] what can this bot do? [04:24] !bug [04:24] If you find a bug in Ubuntu or any of its derivatives, please file a bug using the command « ubuntu-bug » - See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs for other ways to report bugs - Bugs in/wishes for the IRC bots (not Ubuntu) can be filed at http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-bots [04:24] .. [04:24] !help [04:24] Please don't ask to ask a question, simply ask the question (all on ONE line and in the channel, so that others can read and follow it easily). If anyone knows the answer they will most likely reply. :-) [04:24] How is that relevant? [04:25] no idea lol [04:25] i've enabled partner and updates [04:25] updated* [04:25] but still can't see acroread. [04:27] says it's build for Lucid [04:27] but the package version is 9.1.0-7jaunty2 [04:27] and that was 20 weeks ago [04:28] so i'm going to assume it's not in the lucid repos [04:28] the lucid version is lagging behind karmic and others. weird [04:29] and adobe only support 32 bit from their website [04:29] what dicks [04:29] yeah, it uses ia32libs to run. [04:30] if i download the 32 bit .deb from adobe will it work? [04:30] * humphreybc tries xpdf [04:32] xpdf is better at images but sucks at text [04:32] not to mention it's shit [04:32] lol [04:33] well, it's ancient [04:38] humphreybc: did you see mark's response to the windows controls position 'bug'? [05:25] godbyk: yep [05:26] Joey covered at OMG! [05:26] cool [05:28] so it looks like window controls are here to stay [05:28] fun fun [05:37] on the left? [05:37] eek [05:44] IlyaHaykinson: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-themes/+bug/532633/comments/110 [05:44] Launchpad bug 532633 in metacity "[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to "menu:minimize,maximize,close"" [Undecided,Confirmed] [05:44] humphreybc: im running lucid now [05:45] sounds like Mark is saying "it'll stay for beta, but maybe not for the final release" [05:49] IlyaHaykinson: that's what I got out of it, too. [05:51] this makes taking screenshots a very last minute thing for us, eh? [05:51] Seems that way. [05:55] i might have a talk to mark or the design team [05:57] about changing the buttons in the new theme back? [05:58] or at least getting some sort of hard cut-off date so we know when we can start taking screenshots. [05:58] yea, otherwise we are kind of screwed on that point [06:01] * IlyaHaykinson suspects this won't work. The initiative came from Mark [06:03] * nisshh agrees [06:10] * godbyk suspects that nisshh and Schumbit are the same person. :-) [06:11] * nisshh am not! [06:11] * nisshh says that schumbit is a different person [06:12] * nisshh says lol [06:12] heh.. sure, sure.. you would say that! [06:12] if i were Schumbit, i would have so said "i am nisshh" [06:12] nope, mere coincidence [06:13] and then nisshh would _never_ be able to pretend otherwise ;-) [06:13] haha funny [06:13] i really like lucid [06:13] heh [06:13] so damn fast [08:23] godbyk: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2010/03/15/ubuntu-title-page-2/ [08:24] thorwil: I hate the dots. [08:25] I like A the best, but I'd prefer the icons be the same color as the CoF orange. [08:26] godbyk: i think A is more balanced and succeeds in friendliness, less of a contrast to the font selection [08:26] godbyk: i tried that. the orange is no good for the icons [08:26] no? bummer. [08:27] thanks for poping the screenshots in. [08:27] I like A btw thorwil [08:28] godbyk: so we go with A. which might mean we have to stand united against Ben ... ;) [08:30] this shows why some designers say you should only ever present options you are fine with, if they get picked [08:30] thorwil: heh.. good idea. we'll have to remember that for next time! [08:30] however, if i'm asked to try something that i can't dismiss outright ... [08:34] what color is that with the icons? is looks odd matched with the orange CoF. [08:35] godbyk: it's about halfway between the orange and black [08:35] I loved how Ben points to Mark's post about the branding, and then proceeds to select the wrong elements to use. The dots are meant to indicate technical/engineering-type stuff and the purple is for Canonical/corporate tsuff. [08:36] We should promote the community (orange) and friendly (non-technical, non-dots) stuff. [08:37] yes. though what they propose for the community side is on the aggressive side in my eyes [08:42] titeuf_87: ping [08:42] thorwil: I think the more transparent orange on C looks nicer than the darker orange on A, actually. [08:48] thorwil: can you recommend a color palette for us to use on the interior of the manual? [08:48] for headings, to show internal links (cross-references), external links, important things, ... not sure what else. [08:49] ubuntujenkins, I'm here, although only half paying attention [08:50] I was thinking what is the point of the language box in the screenshots window as I am unsure if we will get as far as launching programs in other languages. I think at the moment we should only let people take screenshots in the languages that they are logged in as. They can log out, change the language and log back in again if they want to do them in other languages. [08:50] godbyk: i think we should try headings in black, actually [08:50] thorwil: I'm cool with that. [08:50] I think the typeface and size are enough indicators that it's a heading. [08:51] godbyk: for links i'd say try the icon orangish-brown tone. but i'm trying something there right now [08:51] okay [08:52] godbyk is this a sutible fix for your quickshot bug http://paste.ubuntu.com/396049/ [08:52] titeuf_87: any thoughts on that? [08:53] on my previous comment to you titeuf_87 [08:53] about the language box? [08:53] ubuntujenkins: you could just check the exit status of id. [08:53] yep titeuf_87 [08:54] how would i go about that godbyk ? [08:54] that sounds fine to me, we'll need to retrieve the active language then [08:54] thats easy to do its in a file somewhere [08:54] *settings [08:55] ok, I'll look at that tonight then when I'm back from work [08:55] thanks titeuf_87 I will try to find the file to look in [08:56] godbyk: narrower than text block screenshots are centered to text block? how about aligning them to margin side, minimizing the gap to there caption? [08:56] their caption, even [08:56] thorwil: right now all the screenshots are centered, either in the text block or between the page margins. [08:57] I originally had them left-aligned, but that looked odd. [08:57] you think I should right-align them? [08:58] godbyk: yes for single-side layout. margin side. just try it [08:59] ubuntujenkins: I think you can call .wait() and it'll return the exit status: http://docs.python.org/library/subprocess.html#subprocess.Popen.returncode [08:59] titeuf_87: doing "echo $LANG" in the command line returns your current language. have fun day at work :-) [08:59] thorwil: I'll try it real quick.. one sec. [09:00] moring humphreybc [09:00] hey guys :) [09:00] ubuntujenkins, thanks! [09:00] np [09:00] hi humphreybc [09:00] hey thorwil! [09:02] thorwil: http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/thorwil.pdf [09:03] thorwil: (see page 70) [09:04] godbyk: i think that's better [09:04] 'kay. we'll run with that for a while. [09:04] do you like the line widths better now? [09:06] godbyk: seem to be about the sweet spot now, yes [09:06] great! [09:07] Do we want to do anything more interesting with the chapter headings or leave 'em as they are (except with lining figures instead of old-style figures)? [09:07] godbyk: is hyphenation running with some conservative settings, is it using an insufficient rule set? [09:08] see you later people o/ [09:08] hi vish [09:08] thorwil: Hmm.. not sure. It has an awesome rule set. Don't know what settings I'm using. What are you seeing? [09:09] godbyk: word spacing seems excessive in some places. not horrible, just on a closer look [09:10] thorwil: if you give me some specific examples, I'll look into it. [09:10] the line-breaking that TeX uses is to optimize the appearance of the entire paragraph, not any particular line. [09:11] godbyk: page 96," e principal paage managers", that and the next line [09:11] goes from dense to rather wide [09:12] godbyk: i think you should move the whole content a bit to the right. that is, increase left margin, decrease right margin [09:13] where a bit actually means to the margins must end up _clearly_ different, of course [09:14] thorwil: just guessing, but I think that if it moved "Cen-" to the next line, the first line would have wider word spaces than the second line does now. and that's probably why it hyphenated instead. [09:14] I can check into it, though. [09:15] per the margins, I generally prefer a wider right margin than left. otherwise it looks like the text is about to run off the right edge of the page. (especially when it's in a bound book) [09:17] godyk, the margins on the right (last time i looked) were pretty damn big [09:18] like 60:40 [09:18] can we have the content:notes ratio something like 70:30 at max? I would prefer 75:25 or 80:20 [09:20] humphreybc: I don't want the lines of the main text block to be too much wider of it'll be more difficult to read. Also, since screenshot captions, definitions, margin notes, and other random stuff are all being put in the sidenotes area, it'll need to be wider than you think, otherwise all that stuff will run out of vertical space. [09:24] hmm [09:24] why are screenshot captions in the margin? [09:25] 'Cause they look nice there? :) [09:26] thorwil: right now the left margin is 1" and the right margin is 5/6" (if I did my math right!). [09:31] lol [09:32] godbyk: the right edge of the main block is very close to the larger part of a golden section of the page now. that's really nice [09:32] cool. [09:32] the page design that we have now is based on that used by Edward Tufte in his books. [09:33] godbyk: the right margin does not equal the left, but is not clearly different. there's just no nice proportion between the two [09:34] thorwil: that's true. were you guys around for the justified vs. ragged right question? [09:34] godbyk: http://www.foopics.com/showfull/29d721e5c9d260486c62e48668a92046 [09:34] godbyk: no, i wasn't [09:35] thorwil: http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual-ragged.pdf or fully-justified (as now)? [09:36] the fully-justified version is a bit more formal-looking, which may give our manual more of a sense of authority, [09:36] but a ragged-right block may look more friendly. [09:37] ((fwiw, Tufte's books use a ragged right.) [09:37] ragged-right solves the density issues. like always [09:38] yep and gives us a little more freedom on the margins. [09:38] makes them less conspicuous. [09:38] go that way [09:39] thorwil: did you decide on a cover yet? [09:39] 'kay. [09:39] if you've got some graphics split out, I can set about constructing the cover in latex real quick. [09:40] godbyk: A. if anything, the icon color question is still open, thanks to you [09:40] cool. [09:40] thorwil: turnabout is fair play! [09:40] godbyk: still need to adjust the layout depending on internal margins. and build a letter version [09:41] thorwil: http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/thorwil.pdf ragged now. [09:41] definitely fixes the word-spacing issue you noticed earlier. [09:41] I'll run one at A4 for you, too, real quick. [09:43] thorwil: http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/thorwil-a4.pdf [09:47] thorwil: the other day you said you didn't like something about the roman numerals. what were you talking about? [09:49] godbyk: look at page 21 in the a4 version [09:49] godbyk: no wait, wrong issue [09:50] godbyk: i meant the page numbering for the prologue, but that is already fixed [09:51] thorwil: oh, you didn't like the roman numeral page numbers? gotcha. [09:51] godbyk: but text figures like the "1" in front of "Installation" ... that's regular weight vs bold [09:51] I'm okay with them. I think they're classy. Tufte's books don't use them, so neither does the tufte-book style (which is why they're no longer in there). [09:52] thorwil: yeah, that's on my list to fix. [09:53] godbyk: the alternative to using capital figures would be to have the whole head in regular, relying on size and placment alone [09:53] right. [09:54] I think the capital figures may look better since they're always adjacent to a capital letter, though. [09:54] yes [09:54] do you think urls should be in monospaced type or the regular serif? [09:58] godbyk: maybe sans, bot not monospaced [10:12] the paper size should be automatically set appropriately based on the language you're compiling now. [10:12] If it's US English, it'll be letter size. If it's, well, anything else, it'll be A4. [10:20] Okay, I'm off to bed. Be back in 8 hours or so. G'night! [10:21] (Also, I've started the build script for the translations. so new copies of the translated manual will be up at http://ubuntu-manual.org/builds/ after a bit.) [10:22] humphreybc: you should set up a meeting for this weekend. If for no other reason than to remind everyone of the looming deadlines. :) [10:22] Ta! [10:26] heh [10:26] will do [10:44] godbyk, just doing the agenda now [10:44] stuff I need to add? [10:53] progress report? [10:58] lol [10:58] i'm kinda getting worried about screenshots now [10:58] so am i [10:58] long story short, we're a bit screwed [10:59] i just noticed how many we have got so far [10:59] heh [10:59] well [10:59] we would have a lot more if the damn design team confirmed the window buttons [10:59] first priority is the english manual [10:59] yea true [10:59] actually [10:59] yea [11:00] holy crap! [11:00] i just figured, do we have a FAQ in the manual yet? [11:06] we've got the troubleshooting section [11:07] yea but thats for common problems, what if the user just wants to know something thats not an actual problem [11:09] but is confusing for them [11:20] maybe in 10.10? [11:21] yes i agree maybe in 10.10 [11:30] humphreybc: im using lucid now! its so freaking fast! [11:31] heh [11:31] told ya! [11:31] yep [11:31] i think lucid is going to be an awesome step forward for Ubuntu [11:31] firefox starts up at least three times faster for me [11:31] the new theme and branding is really good, it may not be as good as it can be, but it's certainly a lot better than what we had. two steps forward, one step back xD [11:31] that could just be fresh install syndrome though :P [11:31] yes too right [11:32] you should try it on an SSD or from a pen drive on the LIveCD [11:32] SSDs are blazingly quick, I don't have one but i've seen videos and heard from people who have SSDs [11:32] well unfortunantly i dont have any really expensive ssd's lying around [11:32] im still on IDE drives here [11:33] yes SCSI drives are also pretty fast [11:33] at 10k rpm anyway [11:34] when i have the cash im going to get a whole new system with RAID and a core i7 [11:36] heh [11:36] fun fact, it's freakin' cold outside [11:36] meh its warm here [11:37] how warm? [11:37] what time is it? [11:37] hehe 730pm [11:37] damn [11:37] its still like 17 degrees outside [11:38] you? [11:38] you're on the east coast of aussie right ryan? [11:38] west coast [11:38] oh [11:38] oops yeah [11:38] it's late :P [11:38] gmt +8 [11:38] it's like 12:40am on wednesday, google says 9 degrees but it feels like -1,000,000 C [11:38] hehe [11:39] yes, negative one million :P [11:39] woo topgears just started ill be back in an hour [11:39] lol ok [11:39] * humphreybc is doing some late night python [11:40] * ubuntujenkins daytime python [11:41] * humphreybc likes coding, because you can listen to music and eat chips while doing it. [11:41] ie, it doesn't require all of your attention [11:41] Have you looked at the manual with screenshots in? [11:43] yup [11:43] looking good [11:43] so 1024x768 is the way to go? [11:43] they don't look very sharp, think they are better in 1048x768 than 800x660 [11:43] fair enough [11:44] * humphreybc can't find his dang pencil sharpener [11:44] humphreybc: http://imagebin.org/88978 is impress at 800x600 [11:45] LOL [11:45] not much better at 1048x768 but that is the largest that most laptop screens support and we don't want to stop some users taking screenshots just because they havea laptop [11:50] indeed [11:50] plus it's a fairly decent compromise between quality and size [11:51] i don't like the quality that it apears at in the manual [11:51] the originals are spot on [11:55] are you viewing it in evince? [11:55] and okular [11:56] hmm [11:56] have you tried acroread? [11:56] nope i will try that [11:56] don't worry, it's not just our manual that looks crap with PDF images... many other PDF books i've downloaded have the same thing [11:57] its just it all looks so good then the screenshots let it down. is acroread in the repos, ic an't find it [12:05] hey ubuntujenkins, how can i get python to read an input from a text file? [12:05] ubuntujenkins: acroread is in the partner repositories [12:06] at a a guess use the subprocess module but I have no clue I am afraid my python is limited. sorry [12:06] ah that's okaty [12:06] okay* [12:08] humphreybc: textfile = open(path, "r") or something like that [12:09] then you can use textfile.read [12:09] what's the r for? [12:09] i think you need import sys [12:09] humphreybc: r for read-only, i mean to recall [12:15] TommyBrunn: have you any idea why this doesn't work http://paste.ubuntu.com/396131/ when the user doesn't exist. [12:15] worked it out, text = open('file', 'r') [12:15] then text.read() [12:18] ubuntujenkins: Because if the user doesn't exist, it returns id: : doesn't exist [12:19] Sorry, it returns "no such user" [12:19] What is it that you want it to do? [12:19] I need the status thing don't I, have been going in circles [12:19] * humphreybc likes it how the manual room can double as a python chat room [12:20] I'm not sure I'm following you, ubuntujenkins. [12:20] ubuntujenkins, I can't try it out now, but shouldn't you use .wait() instead of .poll()? [12:20] I am trying to detect if the quickshot user is there in a better way than before re bug #538873 [12:20] Launchpad bug 538873 in quickshot "checkForUser function is inaccurate" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/538873 [12:21] aw cheers manualbot [12:22] thanks titeuf_87 but that didn't work [12:23] what exactly is the error you get? [12:24] no error it just doesn't work [12:24] team: I am new to this project. [12:24] hello shrini [12:24] guide me on how can I help? [12:24] what are your skills [12:24] ubuntujenkins: hello [12:24] ubuntujenkins: :-) [12:24] ubuntujenkins: I am a linux admin and using ubuntu for 3 yrs [12:24] nice [12:25] can you translate? [12:25] ubuntujenkins: yes. I can do [12:25] ubuntujenkins: My language is Tamil [12:27] shrini we don't have a Tamil manual at the moment, you could start one but its alot to do on your own [12:27] ubuntujenkins: Thats great. [12:27] I have to dash humphreybc can you please help shrini [12:27] see you in a bit shrini [12:27] ubuntujenkins: okey [12:27] will be back in awhile [12:28] ubuntujenkins: thats fine. I will be here. [12:28] hi shrini :) [12:29] humphreybc: hai [12:33] shrini, i suggest you don't start translating on your own [12:35] it will be a lot of work [12:36] what are you interested in? [12:41] humphreybc: I like to see the manual in Tamil [12:41] shrini: you're more than welcome to translate it if you like [12:41] humphreybc: I talk a lot to tamil people and they need a manual to refer [12:41] but it might take a while just on your own [12:41] okay, have you got any friends that could help? Or are you in a LoCo group/ [12:41] humphreybc: yes. It may be tough. [12:41] ?* [12:42] have you translated before? [12:42] humphreybc: yes. we have a lug in my town [12:42] awesome :) [12:42] you could try to get them involved to help you [12:42] humphreybc: they agreed to work on translation [12:42] oh, excellent [12:42] humphreybc: sure. this weekend or next weekend, decided to join in my home [12:43] humphreybc: and work on translating [12:43] you can start translating whenever you like, but the writing freeze is on the 31st march [12:43] humphreybc: need your advice [12:43] https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual [12:43] have you had a look there? [12:44] yes. I looked there [12:44] but, seems to tough to do translation on launchpad [12:44] as Tamil is different then english [12:44] dutchie: ping [12:45] yep, but did you have a look at all the translations currently underway? [12:45] we could not fix the text with the same english sentences [12:45] there are lots of languages that are different to english, such as Chinese [12:45] humphreybc: yes. ofcourse [12:45] have a look here: https://help.launchpad.net/Translations/StartingToTranslate [12:45] sure [12:46] thats a great link [12:46] thanks [12:47] no worries [12:48] any questions just come in here [12:49] humphreybc: sure. I will do [12:49] you can also email the mailing list to get answers :) [12:49] :-) [12:49] ubuntu-manual@lists.launchpad.net [12:49] where can I get the current english version of the ubuntu manual in english? [12:50] Back [12:50] hang on one second :) [12:51] okey [12:51] godbyk, on your build page, could you have the english build listed up the top? [12:51] can you link me the build page humphreybc [12:51] ubuntujenkins: http://ubuntu-manual.org/builds/ [12:51] ta [12:51] it'll be all nice and pretty with the new website once we get that going [12:53] humphreybc: when will the new website be up? [12:53] nisshh: whenever someone gets around to building it properly ;) [12:54] hehe [12:54] check out http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/share/pages/ [12:54] humphreybc: this looks great [12:55] shrini: i'm just updating the project and then i'll compile the manual and upload it to launchpad for you to get [12:55]