[00:11] nixternal: still planning on doing the upgrade page/pics? [00:21] Crap we need a human changelog don't we? [00:22] Riddell: Do we have any stats of how many people still pull Kde3 packages from hardy for example ? [00:25] nope [00:27] Hmm wondering if there should be a Changelog for the people who were sitting on Hardy [00:30] we don't support upgrades from hardy [00:30] Not upgrades [00:31] just what you can expect as an upgrade from KDE3 [00:31] mostly what's new and what you can view as a regression [00:31] Which should be a tiny list [00:36] since we don't support it we're not going to have any documentation on it [00:42] Dear people who have been resisting KDE4 and are now going to have to use it because it's all that's left supported: Here's why it rocks and you should've switched by now... [00:47] It's been two years now. You'd think people would either live with KDE4 or use the KDE3 remix [00:51] JontheEchidna: how long's the kde3 remix sticking around? theres no devel happening on the old kde3 stuff anymore is there? [00:52] maco: The guy that's been doing it plans to keep it around. He's also been doing some work on it, actually [00:52] It's a bit amazing, actually. He really cares and it putting his keyboard where his mouth is [00:54] Last commit to his KDE3 fork was two days ago: http://websvn.kde.org/branches/trinity/ [00:56] is there that big of interest? [00:58] the remix has its fair share of users, judging by the release feedback wiki page [01:13] quiet night in the channe l( [01:14] everyone is getting an early night to be able to test the new images tomorrow :) [01:19] yay [01:19] so should i stop downloading the current daily-live? [01:19] jjesse: no, you can rsync it when the new ones arrive [01:19] ok [01:19] which you'll get announcement of if you subscribe to ISO testing [01:20] i think i do [01:20] Riddell: isn't it past your bedtime ;) [01:23] getting that way [01:24] Riddell: oh you ARE awake! [01:24] is there a native ubuntu one client yet? [01:25] haha apparently jjesse and i are thinking the same thing [01:25] i think that's a bit scary :) [01:26] if we want users to use the kubuntu-feedback widget , shouldn't it be installed by default ;) [01:27] didn't know there was such a thng [01:27] jjesse: just apache logger's unmaintained paalet [01:27] applet [01:27] * ScottK thought it was nixternal's. [01:28] claydoh: Doing release announcement for the beta? [01:28] ScottK: working on cleaning it up, etc [01:28] claydoh: were you refering to the feedback widget or ubuntuone? [01:28] Excellent. [01:29] ScottK: had no problems upgrading my netbook from karmic to lucid [01:29] Riddell suggested using the feedback widget in place of the feedback page [01:29] Excellent. [01:29] claydoh: it is [01:29] jjesse: u1 [01:30] Riddell: I had to install it on my lucid box just now [01:30] Riddell: How's this: qt-language-selector turns into a KCM module for installing/removing language packs/support, and then I add a KAuth'd button to the existing locale KCM that copies the KDE lang/locale settings to /etc/default/locale via a patch [01:30] Riddell: ScottK JontheEchidna any key point need mentioning in the release notes? bugs? [01:30] claydoh: apt-cache rdepends plasma-widget-kubuntu-feedback says it's in [01:31] claydoh: take your pick from http://tinyurl.com/yjybcx9 [01:32] JontheEchidna: only if the user wanted to set the system default of course [01:32] JontheEchidna: along those lines it would be nice if KDM let you select language, but that's a whole nother project [01:32] Riddell: cool [01:33] Riddell: I could even get a bit fancy with the install/remove KCM and put in a nice model/view for the languages, and maybe even put in a filter bar. [01:33] though I've never done model/view in python... can't imagine it being too hard, though [01:34] JontheEchidna: I'm sure rgreening can tell you how it's done. [01:35] ooh, yeah. usb-creator would be a good place to look for example code [01:36] JontheEchidna: I'm not sure there is a model for languages [01:36] :( [01:37] but you can have a filter line without a model I'm pretty sure [01:38] I wonder what fancy stuff can be done with QListView [01:39] maco: Yes that' would be the gist of the letter along with a list of things that KDE 3 can do that KDE4 cannot [01:39] so where does the feedback from the widget go? [01:39] nixternal's secret server running windows7 [01:40] JontheEchidna: along those lines it would be nice if KDM let you select language <-- it doesn't? even gdm does that! ;-) [01:40] ahhh I shoulda knowed :) [01:40] no that's my not so secret server thats running windows :) [01:40] maco: we use half-working voodoo to detect the system language, iirc [01:40] !nixternal [01:40] Oh no! The pointy-clicky Windows7 lover has arrived! He's rumoured to be giving out free money, and help on the MIRC client too! I LOVE MIRC!!! [01:44] JontheEchidna: Where did your revised language selector debdiff go? [01:44] ScottK: http://pastebin.com/4ARUygQx [01:45] OK. Let's see if I can manage that before I pass out. [01:45] without python-glade2 it won't start, and it'll raise an error when trying to set system defaults if gksu isn't installed, so I added those as depends [01:45] "it" being the GTK frontend [01:45] OK. [01:47] ... and if I can type my ssh key pass phrase (took 4 tries). [02:09] anyone try to get ubuntuonew working on luci? [02:11] ubuntuonew? [02:11] ubuntu one [02:12] ScottK: Thanks. Nighty-night [02:12] * JontheEchidna imagines ScottK passed out on his keyboard, right after hitting enter on dput [02:13] its only just after 10pm there [02:14] Guess that doesn't stop ol' Scottie from having a busy day [02:16] hrmm i think i've installed everything that has the word ubuntuone in it but still no go [02:18] And we have people on KDE3 in the support chan [02:18] ScottK: feedback widget is mine :) [02:18] it is now in c++ [02:18] nixternal: it seems to like being oversized for some reason [02:19] hey, what is the proper way for doing python and cmake? ie. I am installing foo.py to /usr/share/kde4/apps/foo/foo.py but I want it in /usr/bin/foo as well...I have cmake doing the link for me, however when I uninstall via cmake, it doesn't unlink [02:19] Riddell: how oversized? [02:19] there is nothing to that applet [02:19] nixternal: widget size. it's full screen size by default for me [02:19] hrmm [02:20] should be just under 600x600 [02:20] in order to remove the scrollbars needed [02:21] hrmm, it is full screen here as well Riddell [02:22] Riddell: revised SoC proposal draft: http://pastebin.com/GZZ80W6P [02:23] hrmm, seems there is no set size for some reason...easy fix [02:25] resize( 550, 550 ); <- Riddell I have no idea why this isn't working...something must have changed in KDE SC 4.4 that causes this [02:26] nixternal: well more importantly, are you planning on doing upgrade testing and documenting tonight? [02:27] documenting I hadn't planned on doing...I am tired of docs right about now...just rewrote the entire kubuntu-docs package....as for testing, i need to add my feedback to the iso pages...my upgrades worked on qemu [02:28] nixternal: it's the screenshots we need really, documenting I can do, it's just copying the karmic bits and s/karmic/lucid/ [02:28] oh that stuff....yeah, I guess I can work on that [02:29] Did anybody else not get a panel with today's livecd? [02:29] JontheEchidna: possibly "Run as normal user" need to come before port to KCM when implementing? [02:29] Riddell: I think in reality they'll both happen togetherish [02:30] eh, yeah. Before by a little bit :) [02:42] hmm... as plasma is scriptable, wouldn't it be possible to add a button in the desktop folder to open the feedback widget? if desired that is [02:43] * claydoh is feverish, quite literally :( [02:43] that would need code in the folder plasmoid [02:44] I'd quite like the feedback widget to be a one line wee thing on the desktop "click here to give feedback" and it expands [02:44] on betas anyway, not on final [02:44] but time for bed [02:45] wish you would have said that many moons ago :D [02:46] well I only just thought of it :) [02:46] it's good like it is for lucid [02:47] hehe [02:55] Riddell: doing upgrade docs now, for both 9.10 -> 10.04 and 8.04 -> 10.04 [03:07] http://people.canonical.com/~jriddell/9.10-upgrade/hardy-upgrade3.png <- I kind of miss that look and feel and awesomeness [03:08] I miss the not crashiness. [03:08] 4.3/4.4 aren't bad, but they aren't nearly as stable as 3.5 was. [03:09] or fast [03:09] i just installed 8.04 on my test machine for this update stuff [03:09] wow, it is blazing fast [03:09] and it is side-by-side with a fresh lucid install, as of 3 hours ago lucid install [03:10] kpackagekit still sucks compared to adept and synaptic :( [03:11] oh wow, i just found some packages, the documentation, and some other things I worked on in Kubuntu 5.10, the Breezy Badger [03:11] almost 5 years I have been around here [03:11] I have been with Kubuntu longer than any job I have ever had :) [03:12] :) [03:14] wow I that means I have been using Kubuntu longer than any other distros combined [03:14] or other os's even [03:16] that counts win95/98/me, Beos, Lycoris, and bunches of others [03:16] i remember the badger comics [03:16] not here, been using debian since 1994/1995, slackware since 1993/1994, suse/opensuse since around that 94 time frame [03:16] i used gnome longer than i did windows :p [03:17] I have only used linux since 2000, got my first computer in 1998 [03:17] later starter [03:17] i didn't find linux until 2004 [03:18] but i loved my C64 [03:21] ok release notespage seems done, minus some images for Touchpad Configuration,System Notification Polish, and gnome app systray integration [03:21] i have to hit the sack, this fever is dragging me down :( [03:22] https://wiki.kubuntu.org/LucidLynx/Beta1/Kubuntu [03:26] heh, JontheEchidna the kde netbook reference, I wonder what happens to that when suse is sold off as elliot sheds novell's assetts if the bid goes through? :D [03:28] :D [03:38] nixternal: if you need a page of docs done you can throw at me [03:38] I miss adept a lot :( [03:44] oh damn, i forgot 8.04 wasn't lts, so i don't need to document that upgrade [03:49] Sigh. I guess Identi.ca is gone to the dark side. They started publishing my geo location on my 'dents without asking me. Fortunately I noticed, deleted the 'dent and modified my settings before reposting. [03:52] ScottK: it isn't identi.ca, it is your browser, and it should have asked you [03:52] you are either using firefox or chromium [03:52] nixternal: Nope. Konqueror. [03:52] orly [03:52] My browser changed my account settings on identi.ca to say "post with my location"? [03:54] that's how it was originally...when i post to identi.ca, it doesn't show my location [03:54] here, let me try through the library computer [03:55] mine is showing it [03:56] mine isn't showing it I meant [03:57] Dunno. I've posted from this computer before, but not in a while and using Konqueror. [03:57] Never had a post with my location before. [03:58] hrmm [03:58] don't know what it is, konqi didn't do it either [04:00] possibly it's Identi.ca then? [04:11] daskreech: nah, i think stuff like this starts happening when you get up there in age...next he will be sticking his keys in the refrigerator [04:11] Or the toaster [04:30] my mum puts her keys in the fridge on purpose [04:30] that way she can't leave the house and forget the $FOOD she's supposed to take with her to $EVENT [05:26] btw xorg.conf is depreceated right? [05:29] !xorg [05:39] yes; hal is the prefered method. [05:40] I think they are removing the file in the next release of X [05:41] ah ok but how do i use hal and the nvidia restricted driver? [05:47] shadeslayer: well, if you can't find out how, xorg.conf will work [05:47] Fersure: and what about plymouth? will it work with the restricted driver and dkms? [05:47] not sure, I don't see why not though. [05:49] Fersure: hmmm well plymouth starts in text mode right now... [05:49] and ubuntu-bug cant work in proxy apparently [06:03] strange [06:07] yeah [06:11] bug 538292 [09:27] o/ [09:27] after installing using the alternate iso up for testing i've noticed to things; the splash screen writes "ubuntu 10.04" and there is no default panels on the desktop ... know issues / anyone else seen them? [11:11] a|wen: which splash screen [11:11] a|wen: I think you reported the no default panels issue on ISO tracket yesterday? did you try with a new user? [11:11] Riddell: the plymouth one i suppose (just the text "Ubuntu 10.04" and four dots changing colors) [11:12] * a|wen boots the VM and creates a new user [11:16] Riddell: same on a new user; no panel visible [11:16] ubuntu on boot splash is known [11:17] bug 540810 ? [11:17] Launchpad bug 540810 in kdebase-workspace "kde panel does not display on 800x600 display" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/540810 [11:23] that would be it; can see the bug was just created, so that was why i couldn't find any [11:24] a|wen: could you rm /usr/share/kubuntu-default-settings/kde4-profile/default/share/apps/plasma-desktop/init/01-kubuntu-default-setup.js and try again with a new user? [11:28] hello panel :) [11:28] Riddell: that made the panel appear, yes [11:29] ho hum, more bugs in upstream's desktop scripting that they don't even use themselves [11:31] that is probably the reason for the many bugs then [11:31] many bugs? [11:32] i guessed that your "more bugs" refered to this not being the first one found [11:34] more like missing features [11:35] hopefully it'll have enough to do close to what we want [13:11] hi does the nouveau driver support stuff like transperency and desktop cube animation? [13:11] I've no idea [13:11] I do not beleive so [13:12] Riddell: hmm... [13:12] too bad then.. ill have to live with the annoying ascii plymouth screen [13:12] have this : https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/526892 [13:12] Ubuntu bug 526892 in plymouth "No graphical splash on VGA16fb (e.g., nvidia binary drivers), plymouth uses text plugin ("Ubuntu 10.04" in text)" [Medium,In progress] [13:12] that seems unrelated to X compositing [13:13] ubottu: oh,well i have to use nvidia drivers to get composting since nouveau does not support transperency like you said [13:13] Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :) [13:13] Riddell: ^^ [13:14] shadeslayer: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Drivers [13:14] actually, nouveau is the only way you're going to get the nice boot experience with lucid [13:14] nvidia doesn't support KMS< but nouveau does [13:15] fwiw, I also got the text plymouth in virtualbox [13:15] with intel [13:15] JontheEchidna: um im using the latest 195 driver with kms support [13:15] really? They support kms now? [13:16] JontheEchidna: it does say that when installing the drivers [13:16] hmm, neat. [13:16] JontheEchidna: https://launchpad.net/~nvidia-vdpau/+archive/ppa [13:16] launchpad needs comment moderation [13:16] JontheEchidna: see the dkms package [13:16] JontheEchidna: for milestoned bugs please also nominate for lucid (needed for release managers bug view) and tag as kubuntu (needed for the tinyurl in /topic) [13:17] shadeslayer: Ah, dkms isn't kms :) [13:17] JontheEchidna: really? [13:17] Yeah, dkms is dynamic kernel module system [13:17] KMS is Kernel Mode Switching [13:17] oh.. [13:17] JontheEchidna: hey the kcm can modify some parameters of the printers :) please take a look later and tell me if you have some ideas for that dialog :D thanks [13:17] JontheEchidna: btw is 3d support expected in lucid final? [13:17] for nouveau [13:18] shadeslayer: dunno. I think that at best it may only be a little support, and then your mileage may vary [13:18] dantti: oo, neat [13:18] JontheEchidna: bug 342671 ... even though it is all a load of crap and flame and completely off topic [13:18] Launchpad bug 342671 in packagekit "Doesn't support installations which require a removal" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/342671 [13:18] they do have a point right there [13:18] apachelogger: imo we should switch back to adept [13:19] then we probably dont get LTS [13:19] yeah... [13:19] then again [13:19] I do not care about LTS [13:19] It'd require: [13:19] -Adding emergency update notification support to k-n-h [13:20] -Breaking all sorts of UI freezes putting adept in [13:20] and yeah :( [13:20] JontheEchidna: talking about knh, we should make the event classes use knotifieritem or what it is called [13:20] make notifications non-persistent [13:20] but use identical icons in tray icon and notification [13:21] this way it looks like the notification minimzied to the tray icon ;) [13:21] I guess I can live with that [13:21] JontheEchidna: wanna do the honors of proposing the letz-try-to-unbreak-the-stuff-noone-cared-about? [13:22] apachelogger: you lost me. Perhaps I'm still half asleep [13:22] JontheEchidna: do you want to propose the switch to adept :P [13:22] cause I should be doing the nasty asm programming [13:22] btw how do i renable the nouveau package? [13:23] and actually lecture on cpp is startin in 1.5 hours too -.- [13:23] right now I have to figure out which one of these blobs in known_hosts is kde svn :/ [13:24] oh, good fun with that :P [13:24] * apachelogger hates the known hosts list [13:24] Your gdm log files may help developers diagnose the bug, but may contain sensitive information. Do you want to include these logs in your bug report? : lol!!! [13:25] i use kdm... stupid apport [13:25] ah.. apport crashed on itself :P [13:25] ... [13:25] pyware [13:25] ... [13:25] * apachelogger will retire from development and go management [13:25] apachelogger: :D [13:26] apachelogger: packagekir does support package installation that require removal [13:26] which might happen is that apt backend does not support but aptcc does support it works exaclty like apt-get [13:26] no everybody's favorite python apt backend [13:27] dantti: there is some rare flux or something [13:27] dunno if aptcc would be affected [13:27] what is a rare flux? [13:27] dantti: is switching to aptcc a viable option in your opinion? [13:27] apachelogger: no dist-upgrade support [13:27] ah [13:27] dantti: does aptcc do dist-upgrades? ;) [13:28] well there are a few things that it does not have but imo are easy to add [13:28] get-updates returns the results of apt-get dist-upgrade [13:28] I just don't have loots of time to add them all :P === bladernr__ is now known as bladernr_ [13:29] well, since I am retiring form development I cant help :P [13:29] I talked with Ridell some day ago about porting adepts debconf support to packagekit.. [13:30] there are lot's of stuff to do still.. [13:30] *nod* [13:30] why is kubuntu using pk again? [13:31] apachelogger: because it was hailed to be the future of linux package management and everybody said we sucked for not using it [13:32] well [13:32] ... [13:32] the result did not change [13:32] dantti: the Name: field in the "configure printer" dialog would more accurately be described as Description: [13:32] just how it composes :P [13:32] dantti: But changing the description and location do work [13:33] JontheEchidna: sure it's more accurate I just tought that calling it name as it's the "name" to be shown in print dialogs would make more sense.. [13:33] dantti: The print dialogs don't show the description as the name, in my experience [13:34] hmm you're right... that suck imo :P since you can't change it... [13:34] http://imagebin.ca/view/DwTt7xn1.html [13:35] maybe qt could use a patch :P [13:35] Qt printing system has been neglected for a long time :( [13:35] That John Layt guy has been pretty cool, though [13:35] JontheEchidna: I thought they reworked it for Qt 4? [13:35] Qt 3's was quite the crap [13:36] apachelogger: that was like 4 years ago [13:36] apachelogger: not been touched since [13:36] oh [13:36] well, its not like there is much inovation going on there :P [13:36] at the least they can maintain their code, and make basic features such as duplexing and printing multiple pages work :/ [13:38] yay [13:38] http://pastebin.ca/1844575 [13:38] I think I am all out of stuff to implement [13:39] JontheEchidna: I added a comment on his blog that says something about printing, let's hope he reads it. :) [13:40] I guess that for now I show change to Description and on the kcm ui I should also display the print's real name... :P [13:41] dantti: you're trying to replace system-config-printer-kde as well now too? [13:42] Riddell: well that's another thing that doesn't work here :/ [13:42] Riddell: didn't you saw http://dantti.wordpress.com/2010/03/15/printprogress/ ? [13:43] dantti: have you seen the usability designs for s-c-p-k? [13:43] Riddell: no, where I find them? [13:43] you commented about it but I got no link :P [13:44] dantti: http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/KDE/kdeadmin/system-config-printer-kde/kubuntu_printer_configuration.pdf?view=log [13:45] well almost 2 years of move right? [13:45] dantti: pardon? [13:46] that log is from 2008 [13:46] is that what you want me to see? [13:46] dantti: well the pdf file it points to [13:46] ah [13:47] I saw it once.. but i really think it makes it very complicated.. [13:47] a full printer config tool isn't simple [13:48] I'm trying to add the localhost:631 & mac config [13:48] it isn't simple but you don't need to put all the info at once to the user... [13:48] maybe he just want's to see the printer status or the queue [13:49] and having to read lots of information is bad imo [13:50] there is the applet for that [13:50] dpm: FYI bug 540936 [13:50] also I think the localhost:631 is easier to add a printer than that [13:50] Launchpad bug 540936 in ubiquity "ubiquity-kde.desktop is not translated" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/540936 === jonathan__ is now known as jjesse [13:58] dpm: also bug 540947 [13:58] Launchpad bug 540947 in kbluetooth "no translations for kbluetooth" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/540947 [14:02] Riddell, thanks for the heads up. In general, if you add a task for the 'ubuntu-translations' project, I'll see the bug and it will save you pinging me. You can ping me nevertheless, though :) [14:02] I think we've got a bug for kdebluetooth already [14:02] let me see... [14:04] kbluetooth, I meant [14:07] has anyone tried out the shaman package manager? [14:07] dpm: how do you mean add a task? [14:09] is packagekit the problem when it comes to package handling, or is some wrong with the frontend? [14:09] Riddell, sorry, I meant a bug task. Here's how to open one on ubuntu-translations -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/KnowledgeBase/ReportingBugs The Ubuntu Translations Coordinators team and other peope interested in translations is subscribed to bugmail for the project, and when you add a task, we all get notified about the bug [14:10] That's how we track translations-related bugs [14:10] Here's some more background [14:10] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/KnowledgeBase/HandlingBugs [14:15] Riddell: is oem config kde even usable? [14:19] Riddell: I just tried the latest daily testing iso... and the main panel does't come up in the try kubuntu mode... [14:19] is this an occasional bug? or happens for you too? [14:21] Riddell, I think I see the problem with kbluetooth. Has it been renamed from kdebluetooth to kbluetooth? If that's the case, I think I can just fix that by disabling https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/kdebluetooth and approving the kbluetooth template. If you can confirm that, I think we can fix this straight away [14:22] and the fix would be visible in the first language pack after the beta [14:28] shtylman: worked for me with lots of issues in today's live CD. oem-config-kde doesn't get installed (cjwatson has fixed that now in bzr) [14:28] bug 540922 too [14:28] Launchpad bug 540922 in ubiquity "apt error when running oem-config-kde" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/540922 [14:28] doesn't reboot [14:29] gotcha [14:29] I also see the 100% cpu bug ... which is very upsetting and im not sure how or what is causing it yet === Quintasan_ is now known as Quintasan [14:37] hmm [14:37] Dolphin refuses to mount /dev/sd* devices :/ [14:38] SC2 CDKEY @_@ [14:39] brb [14:50] dpm: yes kdebluetooth got renamed to kbluetooth [14:58] Riddell: put up new screenshots last night for Karmic->Lucid. Need to take 2 more screenshots, actually 3. 1 of alt+f2 for upgrading via alt cd, 1 for the reboot popup, and 1 for the final desktop. I was experiencing the black panel last night, and when using qemu the wallpaper isn't blue, it is freakin' brown, so my screenshots ont he desktop were hosed [15:00] nixternal: ok i can do final desktop easily enough [15:00] nixternal: wallpaper is brown though? really? [15:04] nixternal: http://muse.19inch.net/~jr/tmp/lucid-upgrade-final-desktop.png [15:04] nixternal: by the way hardy to lucid we won't care about, it's not supported [15:07] nixternal: did you report the no wallpaper on upgrade bug? [15:13] Riddell: yeah, that is a qemu issue, and it seems I am the only one who has used kde inside of qemu, as google thinks I am silly for asking it such questions on the subject [15:13] I didn't report the bug because it was late and I just wanted to go to bed :) [15:13] I am fairly certain there is an open report for it somewhere already [15:14] I use virtualbox when doing the VM thing [15:15] yeah, i may start using vbox again...qemu is just faster than vbox, though vbox has some features that make it better [15:15] nixternal: I'll report the wallpaper bug then [15:16] heh, qemu is kind of like gnome, easier with less visible options, you have to tweak it via the command line, kind of like switching buttons back to the right hand side with gconf :p [15:16] :) [15:16] speaking of GNOME, I get to hang out with all of them this weekend, as we are hosting the Desktop Help Summit here in Chicago [15:17] I will be the only KDE dude there....hoping to learn more about project mallard and a way to create the greatest help system for KDE [15:17] lots of gnome uses need help? [15:17] because KHelpCenter blows goat arse [15:17] yes a freedesktop standardised help system would be nice [15:17] Riddell: good point, I will make sure I let them know, as I sit there with this loving glow and halo effect :) [15:19] and last night, I think I learned why Ubuntu switched the buttons to the left. Ayatana popups. Some people, myself included, tend to think you click it to go away. So when they go to that cornder where the popup is and click it, they close the window behind it [15:19] nixternal: actually I seem to mind from guadec a few years ago their new docs format was on freedesktop and I pointed out this must mean they're hoping for it to be a cross desktop standard, to which they mumbled something and moved on [15:20] yeah, Shaun McCance is behind it all. Mallard is just a new type of DTD that is made specifically for topic based help. It is better than DocBook in that case [15:21] which would be nice, because if you are using Kubuntu and install Rhythmbox or Banshee or something from GNOME, it would be nice to view the help file w/o having to install yelp, and vice-versa for KDE apps on GNOME. [15:21] so we could use KHC to view GNOME docs and they could use Yelp to view KDE docs [15:22] yep [15:22] right now, the current config for docs in KDE sucks. I have been doing it for how long now and there are some things I just don't get, KHC's code base for one is so damn complex for just a simple help browser...and I still don't understand the entire translation process [15:23] which I chalk up to being just another dumb american and not having experienced a translated system [15:24] ahh, the good ol' US. Where they teach only English as a requirement, and don't even teach that well, especially here in Chicago. Most schools do have the option to take Spanish and French though :) [15:24] and (arguably) it should all be done on a wiki so normal people can edit the docs without having to care about the technical stuff [15:24] I took Spanish, I was an honors student in Spanish, and almost failed english every freakin' year in school :) [15:24] I will never support the wiki way [15:24] normal people shouldn't be editing system help documentation [15:25] open up KHC, browse for About Kubuntu, and there it is, something about openSUSE being better and you shouldn't use Kubuntu [15:26] I like having docs in a repo with a bit of control on who can commit and who can't, and getting the diff in the email for a doc commit is much better than getting the diff from a wiki edit, which would amount to a massive amount of email [15:26] +1 from me [15:26] i know you are +1, we have already beat this horse to death in KDE for the past 5 years [15:27]