| === gnomefreak76 is now known as gnomefreak | ||
| slangasek | ara: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/result/3833/442, the test case instructions say I should see a pop-up about incomplete language support and I didn't | 05:50 |
|---|---|---|
| === meanburrito920_ is now known as Guest92203 | ||
| === zul_ is now known as zul | ||
| === bladernr__ is now known as bladernr_ | ||
| === yofel_ is now known as yofel | ||
| === RoAk is now known as RoAkSoAx | ||
| * mok0 is here | 17:58 | |
| mok0 | The meeting of the backporters team will be in 55 minutes | 18:05 |
| mok0 | at 19:00 UTC | 18:05 |
| siretart` | mok0: that would be now :-) | 19:00 |
| mok0 | Yep | 19:00 |
| mok0 | Should I msg ppl? | 19:00 |
| siretart` | good idea! | 19:01 |
| mok0 | Besides us, only 4 are on IRC atm | 19:02 |
| ScottK | Hello | 19:03 |
| mok0 | Hi ScottK, now we are 3 | 19:03 |
| ScottK | Let's just vote NCommander will do all the work and end the meeting. | 19:03 |
| mok0 | Hehe | 19:03 |
| mok0 | Let's wait a couple of minutes to see if anyone else shows up | 19:04 |
| mok0 | atlas still compiling over here... | 19:04 |
| mok0 | OK, these are the things I'd like to discuss: | 19:05 |
| mok0 | - General review of backports status | 19:06 |
| mok0 | - Review of backports queues | 19:06 |
| mok0 | - How to do backports with the new source package format | 19:06 |
| mok0 | - LP update sometime late in the karmic cycle destroyed many components, f.ex. bzr, and fixes are still not available. | 19:06 |
| mok0 | - The required "sponsoring" from the archive-admin team destroys my workflow and is demotivating. | 19:06 |
| mok0 | -- My bzr backport is stuck at bug 533042 | 19:06 |
| ubottu | Launchpad bug 533042 in hardy-backports "Backport subvertpy_0.6.9-1 from karmic" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/533042 | 19:07 |
| mok0 | ... perhaps too much for 1 meeting :-) | 19:07 |
| mok0 | Comments? | 19:08 |
| siretart` | let's start with the first :-) | 19:08 |
| mok0 | OK, so the queue is spread over several projects in LP | 19:09 |
| mok0 | Is there any priority here? | 19:09 |
| siretart` | may I ask first who is actually working on the backports queue? | 19:09 |
| siretart` | I'm asking because I know that I'm not | 19:09 |
| mok0 | Well, that's where I started | 19:10 |
| mok0 | As a new member, I was looking for somewhere to start. | 19:10 |
| mok0 | Personally, I think the bzr backport is the most important one atm | 19:10 |
| mok0 | It is quite straightforward, but does require backporting som new packages | 19:11 |
| mok0 | However, I don't think the workflow of "processing backport requests" is satisfactory | 19:12 |
| mok0 | It is much too random | 19:12 |
| mok0 | We need to be quite aggressive trying to keep old distros up to date | 19:12 |
| siretart` | I've just read the wiki page, some parts indicate that a PPA will be involved in the future, and further at the bottom, the PPA seems to be already part of the process | 19:13 |
| mok0 | link? | 19:13 |
| siretart` | https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuBackports | 19:13 |
| mok0 | Oh, yes, that's a mega-document | 19:14 |
| mok0 | Too bad jdong is not here | 19:15 |
| siretart` | I suspect the reason for having multiple lp projects is that different members review requests for their 'pet' version only | 19:16 |
| mok0 | ok, yeah I guessed that | 19:16 |
| mok0 | I think the problem is that nobody has a pet version | 19:16 |
| mok0 | ;-) | 19:16 |
| mok0 | Which is why I sent around the email | 19:17 |
| mok0 | It seems that devs loose interest in a distro once it has been released | 19:17 |
| mok0 | that is a major problem I think | 19:17 |
| mok0 | Even hardy is poorly supported. | 19:18 |
| siretart` | given 288 open bugs for just hardy-backports only, I think it's fairly obvious that the team currently doesn't meet its goals | 19:18 |
| mok0 | Indeed | 19:19 |
| siretart` | well, hardy seems to be the toughest release, it has most of the reports | 19:19 |
| siretart` | intrpid with 143, jaunty with 95, karmic 'only' 57 | 19:20 |
| mok0 | I have a hardy box (virtual) and ran into the problem that it can't fetch LP branches | 19:20 |
| siretart` | sorry? what do you mean with that? | 19:20 |
| mok0 | On my hardy box, I could not do: bzr branch lp:blahblah | 19:21 |
| siretart` | ah, the bzr backport. I see | 19:21 |
| mok0 | I had to get the newest bzr | 19:21 |
| mok0 | Also ubuntu-dev-tools has lots of bugs, but that doesn't hit many ppl | 19:21 |
| siretart` | well, I think a first step could be to stage all necessary packages in the PPA, and then talk to the archive admins to copy from there | 19:22 |
| mok0 | (because it uses the new launchpadlib) | 19:22 |
| mok0 | I agree. | 19:22 |
| siretart` | but that's a specific problem which can be handled | 19:22 |
| siretart` | we were discussing a more general one before | 19:22 |
| siretart` | which I don't really see an approach for | 19:23 |
| mok0 | However, having to be sponsored by the archive admins is annoying | 19:23 |
| mok0 | It interrupts my workflow, and I tend to forget what I was doing | 19:23 |
| siretart` | as said, using a PPA as staging area seems appropriate to me. | 19:23 |
| mok0 | yeah, perhaps | 19:23 |
| siretart` | the archive admins can then batch-process accumulated packages | 19:23 |
| mok0 | Do we have a central ppa for such things? | 19:24 |
| siretart` | perhaps we should issue a call for help in the forums and/or the fridge? | 19:24 |
| mok0 | Help for..? | 19:24 |
| mok0 | testing? | 19:24 |
| siretart` | according to the documentation, that would be https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-backporters/+archive/ppa | 19:24 |
| siretart` | it doesn't look very used, though | 19:25 |
| mok0 | OK, and so, as members of the team, we can all upload to that I suppose? | 19:25 |
| siretart` | AFAIUI yes | 19:26 |
| mok0 | I'm cool with that... wonder what the archive-admins say. | 19:26 |
| mok0 | I still think it's a bit of a detour | 19:27 |
| siretart` | well, sort-of yes. but I feel that's the easiest way to provide test packages | 19:28 |
| mok0 | It is double work | 19:28 |
| mok0 | We could just as well upload directly to the archive | 19:28 |
| siretart` | it would be awesome to have a 'backport this' button on launchpad that creates an backport in ones private ppa | 19:28 |
| mok0 | heh yes | 19:28 |
| siretart` | what's the problem with uploading directly to the archive? | 19:29 |
| siretart` | I remember that I did that once or twice. but that was ages ago | 19:29 |
| mok0 | I was told it was preferred not to | 19:29 |
| siretart` | it isn't. but in some cases inevitable | 19:29 |
| mok0 | Apparently the archive-admins have a script | 19:29 |
| siretart` | it's mainly the same reason why syncs should be uploaded, although it's technically possible | 19:30 |
| siretart` | the archive admin's script is way safer than manually fiddling with the changes file | 19:30 |
| mok0 | Well, yes, but then the backport archive is not as sensitive | 19:31 |
| mok0 | we have fewer "customers" | 19:31 |
| siretart` | IIRC, the 'script' was created specifically for backporters, because at that time, jdong wasn't a motu yet, but still was proposing backports. going via bugreports and that script was perfectly adequate at that time | 19:32 |
| mok0 | I see | 19:32 |
| mok0 | Looking at bug 533042 | 19:32 |
| ubottu | Launchpad bug 533042 in hardy-backports "Backport subvertpy_0.6.9-1 from karmic" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/533042 | 19:32 |
| siretart` | as far as I understand your 'complaint' is that you feel the latency caused by the archive admins is too high? | 19:32 |
| mok0 | you can see that it's stuck | 19:33 |
| mok0 | yes exactly | 19:33 |
| mok0 | That one is trivial | 19:33 |
| siretart` | ah, I thought you were talking about bzr for hardy | 19:33 |
| mok0 | this is a dependency, it needs to go in first | 19:33 |
| siretart` | do we have a list of all pending packages for hady-backports? | 19:33 |
| mok0 | build-dep | 19:33 |
| siretart` | well, but in that case, using the PPA seems ideal to me | 19:34 |
| siretart` | there you can testbuild and stage all related package, and then ask the archive admin to batch process them | 19:34 |
| mok0 | yeah I suppose | 19:34 |
| siretart` | so you wait only one time, not n times for n build-dependencies | 19:35 |
| mok0 | In that case, I could just point them to the bazaar team's PPA :-) | 19:35 |
| siretart` | I think that those packages don't follow the backports package naming policy | 19:36 |
| mok0 | Probably... but the ones in the ppa wouldn't do that either | 19:36 |
| siretart` | moreover, perhaps the bazaar folks could be integrated into the backports process? as in, they get authority to request or even upload to -backports directly ro something? | 19:37 |
| siretart` | hm, that's a good point | 19:37 |
| siretart` | well, removing the ~ppaN suffix seems straight forward | 19:37 |
| mok0 | What I was doing was getting the same versions from karmic, lucid... and so on, that they had in their ppa | 19:37 |
| mok0 | Then I test built them all, and tested that they worked | 19:38 |
| mok0 | Then I filed bugs | 19:38 |
| mok0 | Now I am waiting... | 19:38 |
| mok0 | And I still have to go and check once in a while to see if things went right | 19:38 |
| mok0 | That is very disruptive to my workflow, since I have other things to do than Ubuntu | 19:39 |
| siretart` | you have my sympathy. I'm not sure what's the best way to proceed, though | 19:39 |
| mok0 | I spent half a day checking all the bzr stuff, but now I have forgotten everything I did ... :-( | 19:39 |
| mok0 | So it's extra energy needed to go back every time and check again | 19:40 |
| mok0 | I'd much rather edit the changelog and get it over with | 19:40 |
| siretart` | I wonder why the bug you've quoted about talks about subverty only | 19:41 |
| siretart` | and does not open task for every package involved in that backport. that would make the actual problem more visibl | 19:41 |
| siretart` | e | 19:41 |
| mok0 | doesn't it say it's a dependency of bzr and other packages will follow? | 19:41 |
| mok0 | OK, so perhaps we should end the meeting by discussing the issue of the source pacakge format. | 19:42 |
| siretart` | ok | 19:43 |
| mok0 | We are going to have problems backporting from lucid | 19:43 |
| siretart` | ah, because of source format 3? | 19:43 |
| mok0 | Yes | 19:43 |
| mok0 | Packages wont build | 19:43 |
| siretart` | in hardy, yes | 19:43 |
| siretart` | I think in later releases, that should do, no? | 19:43 |
| mok0 | I'm not sure | 19:44 |
| mok0 | Other packages have problems b/c of debhelper | 19:44 |
| mok0 | and so, we really ought to backport the latest version of that to the whole line | 19:44 |
| siretart` | that seems to me valid candidates for direct uploads, where those changes need to be reverted | 19:44 |
| mok0 | yes | 19:45 |
| mok0 | I've done it a few times to packages installed locally here | 19:45 |
| mok0 | It's not very difficult to change it | 19:46 |
| mok0 | It's just work | 19:46 |
| mok0 | We should be able to backport almost everything from lucid to karmic | 19:46 |
| mok0 | There are not any major transitions I am aware of | 19:47 |
| mok0 | so, my priorities are hardy and karmic | 19:47 |
| siretart` | I may be biased because I'm familiar with debian's backports.org, but I really don't see much problems in direct uplodas | 19:47 |
| mok0 | neither do I | 19:48 |
| siretart` | in backports.org, all uploads are direct | 19:48 |
| mok0 | I do think users are properly warned when activating backports | 19:48 |
| mok0 | And furthermore, the number of bugs against backported packages is very low | 19:48 |
| siretart` | AFAIR, ubuntu's backports are not have NotAutomatic: yes | 19:49 |
| mok0 | If there are any at all | 19:49 |
| siretart` | which I consider a great feature of backports.org | 19:49 |
| mok0 | I am not really familiar with it | 19:49 |
| siretart` | perhaps we should propose it | 19:49 |
| mok0 | Sure | 19:50 |
| siretart` | it basically prevents packages from being automatically updated to the version in backports | 19:50 |
| siretart` | in debian, you'll have to issue 'apt-get install -t lenny-backports $foo' to install a package from bpo | 19:50 |
| mok0 | That's in apt.conf, right? | 19:50 |
| siretart` | no, that's in the Release file on the mirrors | 19:50 |
| mok0 | I see | 19:51 |
| siretart` | compare http://backports.org/backports.org/dists/lenny-backports/Release with http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/hardy-backports/Release | 19:51 |
| mok0 | aha | 19:51 |
| siretart` | however with that turned on, I fear that synaptics will be terribly confused, and so are our users | 19:51 |
| mok0 | Yeah that may be a problem | 19:51 |
| mok0 | Unless the gui knows how to deal with it | 19:52 |
| mok0 | Actually it may, I am not sure | 19:52 |
| siretart` | ah, now I see another problem with using the PPA: it gets only built on i386 and amd64. so our powerpc and arm users are left in the cold with that | 19:52 |
| siretart` | which I think is fair for staging packages, but not for 'official' backports | 19:52 |
| mok0 | That another issue, yes | 19:53 |
| siretart` | it seems we're running out of time, 7 minutes left | 19:53 |
| mok0 | Heh, yes | 19:53 |
| siretart` | can we perhaps summarize? we badly lack manpower, our processes seem to complex for the amount of requests | 19:54 |
| siretart` | complex in the sense: too much overhead | 19:54 |
| mok0 | We do lack manpower, and it is a bit disappointing that it wasn't possible to drum up the team | 19:54 |
| mok0 | I was thinking that perhaps we could arrange a session once a week or so, and take a look at the queues, distribute the work and get going | 19:55 |
| mok0 | but we need to be more than 2 ppl | 19:55 |
| siretart` | perhaps some sort of motu school session or something could help with recruiting? | 19:55 |
| mok0 | Perhaps | 19:56 |
| mok0 | That would need a senior member of the team though :-) | 19:56 |
| siretart` | indeed | 19:56 |
| mok0 | ... and perhaps we need to revise the workflow, but that also needs participation of more ppl than 2 in the discussion | 19:57 |
| siretart` | I'd need to familarize myself with backports again, I have to admit that I havn't processed a single request since years now | 19:57 |
| mok0 | Heh | 19:57 |
| mok0 | I have been doing quite some backporting for my local machines | 19:58 |
| siretart` | perhaps we manage to catch jdong or ScottK and ask them for their opinion on the matter | 19:58 |
| mok0 | Yes | 19:58 |
| siretart` | ideally, we can come up on a 'backport triaging and processing howto for backport team members' or something | 19:59 |
| mok0 | I suppose they will go and read the transscript of the meeting | 19:59 |
| mok0 | good idea | 19:59 |
| siretart` | ok. let's hope they'll read it | 20:00 |
| mok0 | In principle, jdongs wiki page has most of the information, but it is aimed at both users and developers | 20:00 |
| siretart` | yes, that can probably be split | 20:00 |
| mok0 | I think so | 20:00 |
| siretart` | there is really too much information there | 20:00 |
| siretart` | do you have some time left to write some minutes of the last hour? | 20:00 |
| mok0 | Yes, it should be split in documents for 1) users 2) testers 3) developers | 20:01 |
| siretart` | oh, that's sounds good | 20:01 |
| siretart` | I haven't thought about testers, but they are important as well | 20:01 |
| mok0 | I guess it's basically users who want to take the trouble of reporting bugs | 20:01 |
| mok0 | I haven't seen any bug reports from testers thoug | 20:02 |
| mok0 | h | 20:02 |
| siretart` | I think that's more a role description | 20:02 |
| siretart` | you cannot really seperate users from testers from developers | 20:02 |
| mok0 | What did you mean, if I have some time left? | 20:02 |
| siretart` | s/left// :-) | 20:03 |
| mok0 | Well, some ppl just want to know how to activate the archive | 20:03 |
| siretart` | that's easy: convert bug to support request :-) | 20:04 |
| mok0 | A few of them will also want to request backports | 20:04 |
| mok0 | A few of them are willing to test and report back | 20:04 |
| mok0 | ... and a handful of devs need to know the howtos :-) | 20:04 |
| siretart` | anyway, time's up, I need to see after my wife now :-) | 20:05 |
| mok0 | OK thanks for showing up siretart`!! | 20:05 |
| siretart` | sure thing. thanks for your work on reviving ubuntu backports :-) | 20:05 |
| mok0 | Thanks :-) See you later! | 20:05 |
| === Keybuk_ is now known as Keybuk | ||
| === Pendulum_ is now known as Pendulum | ||
| === mc44_ is now known as mc44 | ||
| === duanedes1gn is now known as duanedesign | ||
| === lan3y is now known as Laney | ||
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!