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knomeokay, it's the xubuntu team meeting time19:03
knomelet's wait a few more minutes to allow people to show up19:03
knomei'm following an another meeting at the same time, and i hope somebody else could do chairing.19:04
knomevolunteers please step up now19:04
highvoltagehi knome19:04
knomehey highvoltage19:05
highvoltagehowdy mr_pouit and cody-somerville19:06
knomehey mr_pouit ! :)19:06
pleia2hi all19:06
* charlie-tca waves at all19:07
SiDihi there19:07
knome(i'm still waiting for somebody else to step up and chair... ;)19:09
highvoltageI would but I'm way to out of sync with Xubuntu to do that currently, another time :)19:10
highvoltageI can take notes though?19:10
highvoltageis there an agenda?19:10
cody-somervilleThe wiki seems to be timing out though19:10
mr_pouitmmh, so shall we start without? ;]19:11
cody-somervilleSounds good to me.19:11
knomeyup. that's fine19:11
knomei have the page open anyway19:12
mr_pouitah ok ^^19:12
charlie-tcafirst item on the agenda is: Continue working with the new Governance structure19:12
knomesecond:  New Xubuntu branding19:12
knomethen:  Team updates (Packaging, Bug Triage, Development / Coding, Testing, Documentation, Artwork)19:12
knomebut i think most of the time will go into the governance stuff19:12
mr_pouitmmh, so we start with the 'easy' topics ;>19:13
knomeyup! ;)19:13
mr_pouitokay, let's start with the artwork19:13
knome(cody-somerville, do you have a clear picture of the edubuntu approach in you mind?)19:13
knomemr_pouit, shall you use mootbot?19:13
mr_pouitfrom what I remember, we're stuck waiting for canonical art team?19:13
mr_pouitknome: mmh, sure19:14
knomeyes, i'm waiting for vector stuff from iain farrell19:14
knomethe new website mockup is pretty much ready19:14
charlie-tcabut we need a countdown screen in about two weeks now19:14
knomeLINK: http://emonk.fi/open/xubuntu/10.04/new-website/19:14
mr_pouit[TOPIC] lucid artwork19:14
knomemr_pouit, #startmeeting19:14
MootBotMeeting started at 14:15. The chair is mr_pouit.19:15
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]19:15
pleia2last I heard everyone "should" have the vectors by the end of this month19:15
mr_pouit[TOPIC] lucid artwork19:15
MootBotNew Topic:  lucid artwork19:15
cody-somerville[LINK] http://emonk.fi/open/xubuntu/10.04/new-website/19:15
MootBotLINK received:  http://emonk.fi/open/xubuntu/10.04/new-website/19:15
knomewhat comes about the countdown screens, we're also pending on the vector stuff19:15
mr_pouitmmh, and still no eta from iain?19:16
mr_pouitthat's annoying :(19:16
knomeno, nothing we could rely on :P19:17
mr_pouitbecause we don't even have a 'decided' logo, so the plymouth, gdm and panel themes use different ones19:17
knomethat's true19:18
knomei don't have a collage of all the proposed logos for this meeting, but the on in the new brand wikipage is pretty much way the best19:18
cody-somervilleDesign team was sprinting this past week19:18
charlie-tcaI thought we were going to use the one in plymouth19:18
cody-somervilleI'm sure things will pick up once they get back in the office on Monday.19:18
knomei'm reluctant to work on it any further until i see how it works with the new final font/vector19:18
knomecody-somerville, i so hope that.19:18
knomeanyway, there is not much else about artwork19:19
knome[ACTION] Wait for vector stuff from Iain.19:19
mr_pouit(really, their schedule sucked completely: releasing new artwork the day before the artwork freeze is plainly stupid, derivatives can't catch up...)19:19
knomemr_pouit, could you add that act? :P19:19
highvoltagemr_pouit: *nod*19:20
mr_pouit[ACTION] Wait for vector stuff from Iain.19:20
MootBotACTION received:  Wait for vector stuff from Iain.19:20
mr_pouitknome: ;)19:20
knomemr_pouit, also; Pasi gathers every logo proposal together and sends mail about them and a few other brand things on the ML.19:20
mr_pouit[ACTION] Pasi gathers every logo proposal together and sends mail about them and a few other brand things on the ML.19:21
MootBotACTION received:  Pasi gathers every logo proposal together and sends mail about them and a few other brand things on the ML.19:21
mr_pouitright, it's also a mess in my mailbox because of that :P19:21
mr_pouitanything on this topic?19:21
mr_pouitwill this create lots of issues?19:22
knomewait a sec19:22
knomewill what create?19:22
mr_pouit(screenshots to remake, or else?)19:22
knomei'll take care of those, if we get in problems ;)19:22
mr_pouitokay, let's wait then :P19:22
knomeone more item:19:22
charlie-tcaThere has been some talk on Ubuntu+1 about seeing the new Xubuntu theme, too19:22
knomewhat about the wallpaper? do we need a new one?19:22
charlie-tcaPeople are waiting to see what we do this time19:22
pleia2and questions about the button placement19:23
knomeokay, we need a new wallpaper apparently...19:23
knomebuttons will stat as they are now, right?19:23
mr_pouitmmh, I thought we kept the one from karmic19:23
charlie-tcabuttons can be easily moved in Xubuntu settings19:23
knomemr_pouit, we can still change it pretty easily, right?19:24
knomemr_pouit, and don't have to have exception, as it's only wall?19:24
mr_pouitno no, it's only a simple upload19:24
knomeyup. feel free to add act item: Pasi proposes the team a new, awesome, wallpaper.19:25
mr_pouit[ACTION] Pasi proposes the team a new, awesome, wallpaper.19:25
MootBotACTION received:  Pasi proposes the team a new, awesome, wallpaper.19:25
knomenew topic please19:26
charlie-tcaNot any darker than we have already, either, on that wallpaper, please.19:26
mr_pouit[TOPIC] team updates19:26
MootBotNew Topic:  team updates19:26
pleia2charlie-tca: +119:26
knomecharlie-tca, i'll try to remember that :P19:26
mr_pouityou can discuss that with knome yeah ;>19:26
mr_pouitmmh, about packaging, nothing really new, it's rather calm19:27
knomegreat. bugs, charlie?19:27
mr_pouitI've been working on getting updated office software, that's all (Bug #543612)19:27
ubottuLaunchpad bug 543612 in pyabiword "[FFe] goffice 0.8.1, abiword 2.8.2, gnumeric 1.10.1 & co" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/54361219:27
charlie-tcabugs are under control now. Working with gnumeric and abiword devs is going good too19:28
knomesidenote: what's goffice?19:28
charlie-tcaWe have quite a few testers running lucid, too, which helps with that.19:28
mr_pouita lib used by abiword an gnumeric knome19:28
cody-somervilleI'm going to upgrade to Lucid sometime this week.19:28
knomemr_pouit, okay19:28
charlie-tcaI did already. Problem: 64bit with nvidia is a bad upgrade19:28
crimsunstill have the abiword help menu blocker, correct?19:29
knomecharlie-tca, that's a GREAT heads up! :)19:29
mr_pouitcrimsun: apparently, although I can't reproduce it19:29
knomecharlie-tca, (tell me when it' fixed ;))19:29
charlie-tcathe upgrade, you mean?19:30
charlie-tcaI can try19:30
knomeis that a xubuntu problem or hugebuntu, btw?19:30
mr_pouitand we're still affected by Bug #520118 :(19:30
ubottuLaunchpad bug 520118 in thunar "thunar select freezes after using mouse to select folders ("detailed view" mode)" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/52011819:30
charlie-tcadon't know for sure, but it seems to be ubuntu, plymouth, nvidia and xsplash related19:30
mr_pouitthese are the two annoying ones for a lts19:31
knomei hope the two meetings would at least be both in english >__<19:31
Sysiknome: nah, this isn't that bad to follow19:32
knomecharlie-tca, i'm told that 64nvidia works after friday's update19:32
knomeSysi, it is when you are ACTIVE in both... :P19:32
charlie-tcaI would be very afraid of it19:32
Sysiknome: still :p19:32
knomeSysi, quiet. :P19:33
charlie-tcaIt seems to work for some, but it seems to fail for many yet19:33
knomeanyway: DEV/coding team?19:33
knomemr_pouit, cody-somerville: ?19:33
cody-somervilleI've been pretty passive this month.19:33
mr_pouitwell, I've been working on porting stuff to thunar gio lately, but that's not for lucid anyway19:34
knomemr_pouit, karmic? lucid+n ?19:34
mr_pouitknome: yeah, +N19:34
knomeanything else from the dev front?19:34
cody-somervilleYea, I have one thing.19:35
mr_pouitnot for me19:35
* SiDi reports he is currently in the process of dying, thus unavailable.19:35
charlie-tcaSiDi going to let us know when that process completes?19:35
cody-somervilleThis might be too late for lucid but I'm wondering if maybe we should re-evaluate the settings menu again.19:36
SiDicharlie-tca: yes, of course19:36
cody-somervilleIt is a bit complicated and I've read a blog or two that complains about it19:36
* knome revives SiDi 19:36
mr_pouitcody-somerville: what's the problem? too many entries?19:36
cody-somervilleAlso, I'm curious as to how well simple-scan is working in comparison to xsane.19:36
charlie-tcaYes, can't we remove/leave out the xfce4 settings manager?19:36
knomecharlie-tca, leave it out, but leave in the various dialogs?19:37
charlie-tcaEverything in it is covered individually as a duplicate entry19:37
cody-somervillemr_pouit, Thats what most people mention, aye.19:37
knome+1 for dropping the settings manager out19:37
knomeit's just weird, though useful if you know it.19:37
knomebut mostly confusing19:37
charlie-tcayes, but it would be better to either throw it out, or incorporate all the settings into it.19:38
cody-somervilleI was pondering the latter.19:38
knomehow easy is it to incorporate them?19:38
charlie-tcaWe really should not need every setting in settings manager duplicated as a separate entry19:38
knomeif we incorporate everything, we of course should only have one menu item for the settings manager.19:39
cody-somervilleAnyhow, just a thought. We can discuss this more on the mailing list.19:39
charlie-tcaWell, I have 22 entries in settings, and 16 in settings manager19:39
knomecody-somerville, will you send a preliminary mail?19:39
cody-somervilleI'd prefer someone else take that action.19:40
charlie-tcaI will initiate an email19:40
cody-somervilleI have one more thing I'd like to bring up for dev and I'm interested in taking the action item for that.19:40
cody-somervilleOkay, great.19:40
cody-somervilleThe next thing I want to talk about is getting our seeds in order and to get ourselves set up with a package set for uploader permissions.19:40
knomecody-somerville, maybe send the urls you've read the complaints from to charlie-tca19:40
charlie-tcaI have seen many of them already19:41
knomecharlie-tca, great! i'm waiting for the mail anxiously.19:41
mr_pouitg, stupid phone19:43
knomemr_pouit, no problem.19:43
mr_pouitso, who will take care of the settings manager issue? charlie-tca?19:43
knomemr_pouit, yes, charlie will send mail to ML19:44
knomecody-somerville, i have no objections, especially if you were willing to take action on that.19:44
mr_pouit[ACTION] charlie-tca to send an email about the settings menu19:44
MootBotACTION received:  charlie-tca to send an email about the settings menu19:44
cody-somervilleknome, I appreciate you not objecting but I was actually looking for feedback from mr_pouit :P19:44
knomecody-somerville, ;]19:44
knomecody-somerville, maybe you should have pointed him with a finger then19:45
mr_pouityeah, that's fine by me19:45
mr_pouitI'm not sure what you mean by "putting seeds in order"19:45
mr_pouitbut the "uploader permission" stuff is part of the new archive architecture and will be needed, so that's a good idea19:46
knomelike, taking the poppy seeds apart from the sunflower seeds and ordering them by size.19:46
mr_pouitknome: great, I'll copy that as an action for cody :P19:47
* charlie-tca gets seeds in order when sticking them in the dirt19:47
knomemr_pouit, please do19:47
cody-somervillemr_pouit, I dunno but the TB mentioned it was necessary for the latter19:47
knomewas that everything from the dev front now?19:49
mr_pouit[ACTION] cody-somerville to work on getting our seeds in order and to get ourselves set up with a package set for uploader19:50
MootBotACTION received:  cody-somerville to work on getting our seeds in order and to get ourselves set up with a package set for uploader19:50
mr_pouitmmh, last topic is probably the governance structure, right?19:51
knomewe still have teams left19:51
charlie-tcaTeam reports are due tomorrow. Let's try to get them in19:51
knometesting. charlie?19:51
charlie-tcaWe did testing19:52
charlie-tcaWe have many lucid testers filing bugs now.19:52
charlie-tcaWe could use more help with the iso testing before releases, though19:52
knomecharlie-tca, any figures? do we have more testers than with karmic or intrepid?19:52
knomeumm, jaunty...19:53
charlie-tcaAfter I broke the system on the upgrade, it took me 12 hours to get it working again19:53
charlie-tcaMany more than ever before. I have seen at least 8 or ten filing bugs19:53
cody-somervilleQuestion: When we setup a council, will that council be responsible for approving new Xubuntu developers?19:53
charlie-tcaNormally we don't see anybody filing bugs before the final images19:53
knomecharlie-tca, great.19:54
mr_pouitI did some upgrade tests (hardy -> lucid and karmic -> lucid) some weeks ago, and I encountered no xubuntu specific issues19:54
knomecody-somerville, isn't that a thing for the governance topic19:54
mr_pouitcody-somerville: wait for the next topic :p19:54
knomecody-somerville, we're still at the team updates :)19:54
charlie-tcaI don't think the upgrade bug I hit was xubuntu specific19:54
charlie-tcathe main bugs we hit was the abiword help file, and the thunar bug19:55
charlie-tcaUnfortunately, we are still getting hit by the bugs caused by ubuntu developers dropping packages19:56
mr_pouit[ACTION] mr_pouit to perform new upgrade tests, to check for any xubuntu-specific failure19:56
MootBotACTION received:  mr_pouit to perform new upgrade tests, to check for any xubuntu-specific failure19:56
mr_pouit(otherwise i'll forget)19:56
cody-somervilleWe need to make these team updates lightning fast for next time. Its already been almost an hour since this meeting started. lol.19:56
charlie-tcaIs that going to include hardware tests?19:56
knomecody-somerville, yes.19:56
knomemr_pouit, you should control the discussion more :P19:57
charlie-tcaDo we have any documentation updates?19:57
knomeno, jim is taking a break.19:57
mr_pouitknome: hehe19:57
knomewell, we pretty much went through where the artwork+marketing stuff is.19:58
knome== pending19:58
mr_pouitif we decide to hide some entries in the settings menu, we have to ensure that the docs don't refer to them19:59
knomebut if we remove the settings manager, that should be a relatively easy task19:59
mr_pouityup, we'll wait for the mail :)20:00
knomelet's get to the governance stuff20:01
mr_pouit[TOPIC] governance structure20:01
MootBotNew Topic:  governance structure20:01
mr_pouitookay, so what's the current status?20:01
mr_pouitstalled probably20:01
knomeyes. cody proposed that we take the edubuntu structure20:01
mr_pouitwe've the policy from edubuntu indeed20:01
knomecody-somerville, can you introduce it to us briefly?20:02
mr_pouitdoes someone have the link to it?20:02
knome(or us to it)20:02
cody-somervilleummm... I just suggested we do as edubuntu do and get out butt in gear :P20:02
cody-somervilleI'm not even sure how they set it up20:02
* charlie-tca agrees +120:02
knomewell i talked with stgraber about it in london briefly20:03
charlie-tcaWelllll, I propose picking 5 Council members today and set up the first meeting20:03
knomeand i got the impression it works pretty well20:03
pleia2the Delegation document is helpful too20:04
knomeand is pretty much the same what we actually proposed in the last meeting20:04
pleia2oh wait, that's just the main one, hmm20:04
pleia2the Charter is the important bit :)20:04
knomewill the members be nominated by ~ubuntu-members for the xubuntu council?20:04
cody-somervilleI doubt that'll prove to be helpful.20:05
knomei think this is pretty much the biggest difference: # Have a rotating chairman for each EC meeting based alphabetically on IRC nickname, in the event of a split vote the chairman will have an additional vote.20:05
knome(and i think the thing we are disagreeing about the most)20:05
pleia2well, nominations in general in the community tend to be pretty wide open20:05
pleia2it's voting that tends to matter20:06
mr_pouitexcept that xubuntu-focused ubuntu members are probably less than 10 people20:06
knomepleia2, "Be voted in by ~edubuntu-members with supervision by the Community Council;" as well20:06
mr_pouitso I'm not sure the vote will be meaningful :(20:06
cody-somervilleI'd recommend that we come up with a wiki page proposal.20:07
pleia2knome: *nod* that mostly meant the CC reviewed the candidates (for major problems, they were all fine really) and then set up the poll20:07
knomecody-somerville, about our governance?20:07
cody-somervilleAnd then if we agree on it, take it to the CC for approval. If approved, we'll execute the proposed plan.20:07
knomepleia2, ah, right. :)20:07
cody-somervilleActually, I remembered something from the strategy document.20:07
knomewhich is?20:07
cody-somervillelet me quote20:07
cody-somerville"Initially, the Xubuntu project leader will be the sole member of this team and no launchpad group will exist. When the Xubuntu project leader requires further individuals to be a member of the council, he or she will then create a launchpad team which will contain the members of the council."20:08
cody-somervilleThis sounds like mr_pouit has the ability to convene a council of his own devices :P20:08
charlie-tcayes, it does.20:08
knomecody-somerville, but the Doc doesn't really tell how to select those council members?20:08
charlie-tcaHe can pick the initial council members20:08
pleia2is this ~xubuntu-team on lp?20:08
cody-somervillepleia2, No.20:09
mr_pouitflip coin \o/20:09
pleia2a council team above it?20:09
knomemr_pouit, i'm heads and tails.20:09
cody-somervillepleia2, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/StrategyDocument#Xubuntu%20Contributors%20%28xubuntu-team%2920:09
knomemr_pouit, ;)20:09
charlie-tcamr_pouit: however you want to do it20:09
pleia2cody-somerville: thanks :)20:09
cody-somervilleSuggestion: we come up with a proposal for a council, agree on it, and then have mr_pouit select who will fill the initial seats.20:10
knome5 members?20:11
knome(incl. mr_pouit )20:11
knomei want to raise up the discussion about XPL veto vote20:11
mr_pouitfine by me, if you agree. We can alsohave the cc review the candidates if that's really needed20:12
pleia25 members with a deciding-vote-leader tends to work well20:12
knomemr_pouit, i don't think so, really20:12
knomeagree with cody as well.20:12
knomeno problems in that20:12
cody-somervilleI'd like mr_pouit to make the decision on that. My suggestion is either 3 to start out with or if we go with 5 then I'd suggest making three of the five members developers and these three members have the exclusive responsibility to approve new Xubuntu developers.20:12
charlie-tcaThat makes the most sense20:13
knomecody-somerville, do you mean "at least 3 of 5" or "exactly 3 of 5" ?20:13
pleia2mr_pouit: at this stage I'd say you don't need cc to review - as the council matures and perhaps someday is able to approve new xubuntu-members (as part of the ubuntu-members team) that's when the cc should get involved20:13
knomecody-somerville, and what are you referring to with "developer" here :)20:13
mr_pouitknome: pleia2: ok20:13
cody-somervilleknome, has upload permissions20:13
mr_pouitcody-somerville: do we have 3 developers? :D20:13
mr_pouitI think we are only 2 ^_^20:14
knomecody-somerville, we don't have 3 developers then.20:14
* charlie-tca thinks there a many questions20:14
pleia2although, a note to the CC saying xubuntu has changed leadership and now has a first council is always appreciated :)20:14
mr_pouityeah sure20:14
cody-somervilleAlso, its of course required to be a ubuntu member to serve on the Xubuntu council.20:15
knomemr_pouit, maybe write those down as [agreed]20:15
mr_pouit[AGREED] Proposed process: we come up with a proposal for a council, agree on it, and then have mr_pouit select who will fill the initial seats, and notify the CC about the leadership change20:16
MootBotAGREED received:  Proposed process: we come up with a proposal for a council, agree on it, and then have mr_pouit select who will fill the initial seats, and notify the CC about the leadership change20:16
mr_pouitsemthing like that knome?20:16
knomemr_pouit, add: 5 members, members need to be ubuntu members20:17
knome(or n members, i don't know if we agreed on 5)20:17
charlie-tcaActually, mr_pouit can decide to have the council, and pick his members20:17
mr_pouiteveryone seems to be happy with 520:17
knomecharlie-tca, sure, but we still want to propose it together. :)20:17
SiDiI think we should reach for 42.20:18
cody-somervillepleia2, To change the council from being appointed to being voted will require changing the Xubuntu strategy. This document is ratified by the CC. Will we not need permission from the CC to update it?20:18
* SiDi is hiding again.20:18
mr_pouit*seem, bah20:18
pleia2cody-somerville: it will, I see the voting step as part of the council maturing20:18
cody-somervillepleia2, Okay.20:18
knomealso, what about deciding vote?20:19
knomeleader vote vs. the edubuntu way?20:19
knomeedubuntu way for reminder: # Have a rotating chairman for each EC meeting based alphabetically on IRC nickname, in the event of a split vote the chairman will have an additional vote.20:19
cody-somervilleEdubuntu doesn't seem to have a team lead role whereas Xubuntu does20:19
mr_pouit[AGREED] the council will consist of 5 members, who have to belong to ~ubuntu-members20:19
MootBotAGREED received:  the council will consist of 5 members, who have to belong to ~ubuntu-members20:19
knomecody-somerville, they do have two leaders20:19
knomecody-somerville, highvoltage and stgraber20:20
knomecody-somerville, afaik20:20
pleia2if there is a real split in the project, having a rotating tie-breaker doesn't work (they can just reverse the decision at the next meeting)20:20
* cody-somerville nods.20:20
pleia2so in the case of xubuntu where there is a respected and recognised leader, I think it makes sense for them to be the tie-breaking chair on the council20:21
cody-somervilleFor us to revoke the XPL's ability to veto (which supersedes any authority the council has currently) will require us updating the strategy document and having the CC approve + ratify the updated document.20:21
mr_pouitI'm not really happy with the "more power/veto" idea actually20:21
cody-somervillemr_pouit, Then its simply a power you can choose to not exercise.20:22
cody-somervilleWe could still have a rotating chairman with casting vote20:22
knomemr_pouit, "-- more power/veto for XPL --" ?20:23
pleia2fwiw, going to the CC for ratification of a new strategy shouldn't be a big deal, it's easy to explain that the x-council is now being put in place and through discussion the team changed their mind about how it should be configured, the CC won't have a problem with this20:23
mr_pouitI can't find any advantage in it: if there's a real split, it's a big problem as anything can be changed the next meeting20:23
mr_pouitand if there's no problem and the council is okay, then this veto is useless20:23
mr_pouitso in both case, it's not very good20:23
cody-somervillethats only if the veto/casting vote rotates20:24
cody-somervilleCurrently you as the XPL has the ability to veto/have casting vote.20:24
cody-somervilleYou could in theory delegate this authority to a rotating chairman20:24
* pleia2 nods20:24
cody-somervillethen if there is a split, you can step in and exercise your authority as the XPL.20:24
cody-somervilleAnd for folks who knome who are skirmish about such a situation, its important to remember that the CC is the presiding authority over the XPL. So if the XPL were to abuse their power, anyone is free to request the CC to intervene.20:25
cody-somerville*like knomw20:25
cody-somerville*like knome20:25
* charlie-tca nods20:26
knomeit's not about somebody abusing his/her power20:26
knomeif the vote is about artwork and ends 2-2, artwork leader saying yes and XPL saying no, i'm not sure if XPL is the correct person to decide.20:27
mr_pouit(what is more likely to happen is that these folks will lose interest in contributing and step back rather than requesting a CC intervention imho)20:27
cody-somervilleI doubt it20:27
cody-somervilleIf they're that passionate to be on the council, they're probably passionate enough to go to the CC.20:27
knomeunfortunately i agree with mr_pouit.20:27
cody-somervilleThe escalation process is well defined and easy20:27
highvoltagestgraber and I are the release managers, but we don't have a leader as such20:27
knomethat wouldn't be the case with me, but might be the case with somebody else.20:28
highvoltageit sounds a bit weird but it works for us20:28
cody-somervilleknome, The artwork leader is only the artwork leader because the XPL has appointed that person20:28
cody-somervilleknome, Their authority derives from the trust and delegation the XPL has placed in that individual.20:28
pleia2knome: honestly I don't know if I've ever seen a decision go like that, the chair/leaders in the community tend to respect the expertise of their key leaders20:28
cody-somervilleknome, So the XPL is always the final buck since he or she is the one responsible for the overall direction and success of the project20:29
knomecody-somerville, yes, but the artwork lead probably is more "expertised" in artwork than the project leader, if the project leader belongs in the dev team.20:29
mr_pouitand with the rotating chairman idea, if the chairman is the doc team leader, and the topic is a technical topic, how is he supposed to decide?20:29
knomepleia2, we've had situations where cody disagrees with the rest of the dev team about some minor artwork detail and uses his veto.20:29
mr_pouitand the cc is completely useless on technical topics also (same for artwork, doc, etc.)20:29
pleia2knome: ah, ok20:29
cody-somervilleknome, I don't recall such a case.20:30
cody-somervilleknome, I recall disagreeing and as we've discussed in the pass that doesn't mean I've vetoed anything.20:30
knomecody-somerville, that was with the karmic release artwork, when you didn't like how the text was aligned and was unwilling to use the version i proposed.20:30
highvoltagemr_pouit: indeed, that definitely won't work for everyone. edubuntu is probably a rare exception where it could work since the whole council is technical20:30
mr_pouithighvoltage: ah, okay, that explains a lot ;)20:31
cody-somervilleknome, ultimately your subsequent revision was a million times better and I'm pretty sure you agreed as well.20:31
knomecody-somerville, when a team leader is loyal to the (X)PL, he doesn't want to disobey and go on releasing with the (X)PL not agreeing20:32
knomecody-somerville, i don't think it was *that* much better.20:32
knomecody-somerville, the previous revision would have worked as good as the new one.20:32
cody-somervilleUltimately it was better and provided the level of professional for our public image that I was looking to maintain.20:32
knomethat wasn't what you told then (at least not when you saw the first revision) and really, i think pretty much everybody agreed that the older revision was already awesome enough.20:33
cody-somervilleI can't really find much sympathy for a situation where I pushed you to do better and you did.20:34
charlie-tcaold and done20:34
cody-somervillecharlie-tca, agreed.20:34
cody-somervilleShall we continue? We're 20 minutes away from this meeting being two hours.20:34
knomecody-somerville, that leaves me with the image that you don't value what i did.20:35
knomecody-somerville, it was late night (probably over 1am) when you turned down my older revision.20:35
charlie-tcawe all know knome is not going to agree to anything that says he can be overridden, so let's move away from that for now.20:35
pleia2I am inclined to suggest the team sticks to the letter of the strategy document at this time (which means XPL leads the council)20:36
mr_pouitokay, I still disagree with the "overriding" part… Anyway, someone volunteers to work on the draft for the council?20:37
pleia2mr_pouit: as the XPL, I'd say you have the descretion to say that you will not exercise that part20:37
pleia2(actually I didn't see overriding in the strat doc)20:38
pleia2just "own and lead"20:38
cody-somerville"The project lead also has the casting vote/veto ability. This capacity is not used lightly. The community functions best when it can reach broad consensus about a way forward. However, it is not uncommon in the open source world for there to be multiple good arguments, no clear consensus, and for arguments to divide communities rather than enrich them. The argument absorbs the energy that might otherwise have gone towards t20:39
cody-somervillehe creation of a solution. In many cases, there is no one "right" answer, and what is needed is a decision more than a debate. The project lead should act to provide clear leadership on difficult issues, and set the pace for the project. It is understood that the divisive use of the project leads authority could weaken the project. For that reason the authority is used carefully, in the hope that it will create momentum in t20:39
cody-somervillehe best direction for the project, breaking stalemates where otherwise competing views would fail to reach consensus."20:39
pleia2ah, there we go :)20:39
cody-somervillemr_pouit, I agree to take the action item20:40
mr_pouit[ACTION] cody-somerville to work on the draft policy document for the council20:42
MootBotACTION received:  cody-somerville to work on the draft policy document for the council20:42
mr_pouitand for once, let's try to discuss this topic and the ml also20:42
mr_pouitotherwise we do never-ending meetings20:42
mr_pouitok I think we're done then20:44
mr_pouitanything left?20:44
cody-somervilleI don't have anything20:44
charlie-tcanothing here20:45
MootBotMeeting finished at 15:45.20:45
charlie-tcaThanks to everybody for showing up20:45
mr_pouitno, thank you ;)20:45
* charlie-tca thinks he made knome mad, though20:46

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