[19:03] <knome> okay, it's the xubuntu team meeting time
[19:03] <knome> let's wait a few more minutes to allow people to show up
[19:04] <knome> i'm following an another meeting at the same time, and i hope somebody else could do chairing.
[19:04] <knome> volunteers please step up now
[19:04] <highvoltage> hi knome
[19:05] <knome> hey highvoltage
[19:06] <mr_pouit> hey
[19:06] <highvoltage> howdy mr_pouit and cody-somerville
[19:06] <knome> hey mr_pouit ! :)
[19:06] <pleia2> hi all
[19:06] <cody-somerville> Howdy
[19:07]  * charlie-tca waves at all
[19:07] <SiDi> hi there
[19:08] <Sysi> ohai
[19:09] <knome> (i'm still waiting for somebody else to step up and chair... ;)
[19:10] <highvoltage> I would but I'm way to out of sync with Xubuntu to do that currently, another time :)
[19:10] <highvoltage> I can take notes though?
[19:10] <highvoltage> is there an agenda?
[19:10] <cody-somerville> Aye
[19:10] <cody-somerville> The wiki seems to be timing out though
[19:11] <mr_pouit> mmh, so shall we start without? ;]
[19:11] <cody-somerville> Sounds good to me.
[19:11] <charlie-tca> sure
[19:11] <knome> yup. that's fine
[19:12] <knome> i have the page open anyway
[19:12] <knome> ;]
[19:12] <mr_pouit> ah ok ^^
[19:12] <knome> Agenda:
[19:12] <knome> Who
[19:12] <charlie-tca> first item on the agenda is: Continue working with the new Governance structure
[19:12] <knome> yup.
[19:12] <knome> second:  New Xubuntu branding
[19:12] <knome> then:  Team updates (Packaging, Bug Triage, Development / Coding, Testing, Documentation, Artwork)
[19:12] <charlie-tca> yup
[19:12] <knome> but i think most of the time will go into the governance stuff
[19:13] <mr_pouit> mmh, so we start with the 'easy' topics ;>
[19:13] <knome> yup! ;)
[19:13] <mr_pouit> okay, let's start with the artwork
[19:13] <knome> (cody-somerville, do you have a clear picture of the edubuntu approach in you mind?)
[19:13] <knome> mr_pouit, shall you use mootbot?
[19:13] <mr_pouit> from what I remember, we're stuck waiting for canonical art team?
[19:14] <mr_pouit> knome: mmh, sure
[19:14] <knome> yes, i'm waiting for vector stuff from iain farrell
[19:14] <knome> the new website mockup is pretty much ready
[19:14] <charlie-tca> but we need a countdown screen in about two weeks now
[19:14] <knome> LINK: http://emonk.fi/open/xubuntu/10.04/new-website/
[19:14] <mr_pouit> [TOPIC] lucid artwork
[19:14] <knome> mr_pouit, #startmeeting
[19:14] <cody-somerville> :)
[19:15] <mr_pouit> bah
[19:15] <mr_pouit> #startmeeting
[19:15] <MootBot> Meeting started at 14:15. The chair is mr_pouit.
[19:15] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[19:15] <pleia2> last I heard everyone "should" have the vectors by the end of this month
[19:15] <mr_pouit> [TOPIC] lucid artwork
[19:15] <MootBot> New Topic:  lucid artwork
[19:15] <cody-somerville> [LINK] http://emonk.fi/open/xubuntu/10.04/new-website/
[19:15] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://emonk.fi/open/xubuntu/10.04/new-website/
[19:15] <knome> what comes about the countdown screens, we're also pending on the vector stuff
[19:16] <mr_pouit> mmh, and still no eta from iain?
[19:16] <mr_pouit> that's annoying :(
[19:17] <knome> no, nothing we could rely on :P
[19:17] <mr_pouit> because we don't even have a 'decided' logo, so the plymouth, gdm and panel themes use different ones
[19:18] <knome> that's true
[19:18] <knome> i don't have a collage of all the proposed logos for this meeting, but the on in the new brand wikipage is pretty much way the best
[19:18] <cody-somerville> Design team was sprinting this past week
[19:18] <charlie-tca> I thought we were going to use the one in plymouth
[19:18] <cody-somerville> I'm sure things will pick up once they get back in the office on Monday.
[19:18] <knome> i'm reluctant to work on it any further until i see how it works with the new final font/vector
[19:18] <knome> cody-somerville, i so hope that.
[19:19] <knome> anyway, there is not much else about artwork
[19:19] <knome> [ACTION] Wait for vector stuff from Iain.
[19:19] <mr_pouit> (really, their schedule sucked completely: releasing new artwork the day before the artwork freeze is plainly stupid, derivatives can't catch up...)
[19:19] <knome> mr_pouit, could you add that act? :P
[19:20] <highvoltage> mr_pouit: *nod*
[19:20] <mr_pouit> [ACTION] Wait for vector stuff from Iain.
[19:20] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Wait for vector stuff from Iain.
[19:20] <mr_pouit> knome: ;)
[19:20] <knome> mr_pouit, also; Pasi gathers every logo proposal together and sends mail about them and a few other brand things on the ML.
[19:21] <mr_pouit> [ACTION] Pasi gathers every logo proposal together and sends mail about them and a few other brand things on the ML.
[19:21] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Pasi gathers every logo proposal together and sends mail about them and a few other brand things on the ML.
[19:21] <mr_pouit> right, it's also a mess in my mailbox because of that :P
[19:21] <mr_pouit> anything on this topic?
[19:22] <knome> hmm
[19:22] <mr_pouit> will this create lots of issues?
[19:22] <knome> wait a sec
[19:22] <knome> will what create?
[19:22] <mr_pouit> (screenshots to remake, or else?)
[19:22] <knome> i'll take care of those, if we get in problems ;)
[19:22] <mr_pouit> okay, let's wait then :P
[19:22] <knome> one more item:
[19:22] <charlie-tca> There has been some talk on Ubuntu+1 about seeing the new Xubuntu theme, too
[19:22] <knome> what about the wallpaper? do we need a new one?
[19:22] <charlie-tca> People are waiting to see what we do this time
[19:23] <pleia2> and questions about the button placement
[19:23] <knome> okay, we need a new wallpaper apparently...
[19:23] <knome> buttons will stat as they are now, right?
[19:23] <mr_pouit> mmh, I thought we kept the one from karmic
[19:23] <charlie-tca> buttons can be easily moved in Xubuntu settings
[19:24] <knome> mr_pouit, we can still change it pretty easily, right?
[19:24] <mr_pouit> yeah
[19:24] <knome> mr_pouit, and don't have to have exception, as it's only wall?
[19:24] <mr_pouit> no no, it's only a simple upload
[19:25] <knome> yup. feel free to add act item: Pasi proposes the team a new, awesome, wallpaper.
[19:25] <mr_pouit> [ACTION] Pasi proposes the team a new, awesome, wallpaper.
[19:25] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Pasi proposes the team a new, awesome, wallpaper.
[19:25] <mr_pouit> riiight
[19:26] <knome> new topic please
[19:26] <charlie-tca> Not any darker than we have already, either, on that wallpaper, please.
[19:26] <mr_pouit> [TOPIC] team updates
[19:26] <MootBot> New Topic:  team updates
[19:26] <pleia2> charlie-tca: +1
[19:26] <knome> charlie-tca, i'll try to remember that :P
[19:26] <mr_pouit> you can discuss that with knome yeah ;>
[19:27] <mr_pouit> mmh, about packaging, nothing really new, it's rather calm
[19:27] <knome> great. bugs, charlie?
[19:27] <mr_pouit> I've been working on getting updated office software, that's all (Bug #543612)
[19:28] <charlie-tca> bugs are under control now. Working with gnumeric and abiword devs is going good too
[19:28] <knome> sidenote: what's goffice?
[19:28] <charlie-tca> We have quite a few testers running lucid, too, which helps with that.
[19:28] <mr_pouit> a lib used by abiword an gnumeric knome
[19:28] <cody-somerville> I'm going to upgrade to Lucid sometime this week.
[19:28] <knome> mr_pouit, okay
[19:28] <charlie-tca> I did already. Problem: 64bit with nvidia is a bad upgrade
[19:29] <crimsun> still have the abiword help menu blocker, correct?
[19:29] <charlie-tca> right
[19:29] <knome> charlie-tca, that's a GREAT heads up! :)
[19:29] <mr_pouit> crimsun: apparently, although I can't reproduce it
[19:29] <knome> charlie-tca, (tell me when it' fixed ;))
[19:29] <charlie-tca> waht?
[19:30] <charlie-tca> the upgrade, you mean?
[19:30] <knome> yup.
[19:30] <charlie-tca> I can try
[19:30] <knome> is that a xubuntu problem or hugebuntu, btw?
[19:30] <mr_pouit> and we're still affected by Bug #520118 :(
[19:30] <charlie-tca> don't know for sure, but it seems to be ubuntu, plymouth, nvidia and xsplash related
[19:31] <mr_pouit> these are the two annoying ones for a lts
[19:31] <knome> okay
[19:31] <knome> yeah..
[19:31] <charlie-tca> yup
[19:31] <knome> i hope the two meetings would at least be both in english >__<
[19:32] <Sysi> knome: nah, this isn't that bad to follow
[19:32] <knome> charlie-tca, i'm told that 64nvidia works after friday's update
[19:32] <knome> Sysi, it is when you are ACTIVE in both... :P
[19:32] <charlie-tca> I would be very afraid of it
[19:32] <Sysi> knome: still :p
[19:33] <knome> Sysi, quiet. :P
[19:33] <charlie-tca> It seems to work for some, but it seems to fail for many yet
[19:33] <knome> okay
[19:33] <knome> anyway: DEV/coding team?
[19:33] <knome> mr_pouit, cody-somerville: ?
[19:33] <cody-somerville> I've been pretty passive this month.
[19:34] <mr_pouit> well, I've been working on porting stuff to thunar gio lately, but that's not for lucid anyway
[19:34] <knome> mr_pouit, karmic? lucid+n ?
[19:34] <knome> :P
[19:34] <mr_pouit> knome: yeah, +N
[19:34] <knome> okay
[19:34] <knome> anything else from the dev front?
[19:35] <cody-somerville> Yea, I have one thing.
[19:35] <mr_pouit> not for me
[19:35] <mr_pouit> ah
[19:35]  * SiDi reports he is currently in the process of dying, thus unavailable.
[19:35] <mr_pouit> huhu
[19:35] <charlie-tca> SiDi going to let us know when that process completes?
[19:36] <cody-somerville> This might be too late for lucid but I'm wondering if maybe we should re-evaluate the settings menu again.
[19:36] <SiDi> charlie-tca: yes, of course
[19:36] <cody-somerville> It is a bit complicated and I've read a blog or two that complains about it
[19:36]  * knome revives SiDi 
[19:36] <charlie-tca> :-)
[19:36] <mr_pouit> cody-somerville: what's the problem? too many entries?
[19:36] <cody-somerville> Also, I'm curious as to how well simple-scan is working in comparison to xsane.
[19:36] <charlie-tca> Yes, can't we remove/leave out the xfce4 settings manager?
[19:37] <knome> charlie-tca, leave it out, but leave in the various dialogs?
[19:37] <charlie-tca> Everything in it is covered individually as a duplicate entry
[19:37] <cody-somerville> mr_pouit, Thats what most people mention, aye.
[19:37] <knome> +1 for dropping the settings manager out
[19:37] <knome> it's just weird, though useful if you know it.
[19:37] <knome> but mostly confusing
[19:38] <charlie-tca> yes, but it would be better to either throw it out, or incorporate all the settings into it.
[19:38] <cody-somerville> I was pondering the latter.
[19:38] <knome> how easy is it to incorporate them?
[19:38] <charlie-tca> We really should not need every setting in settings manager duplicated as a separate entry
[19:39] <knome> if we incorporate everything, we of course should only have one menu item for the settings manager.
[19:39] <cody-somerville> aye
[19:39] <cody-somerville> Anyhow, just a thought. We can discuss this more on the mailing list.
[19:39] <knome> sure.
[19:39] <charlie-tca> Well, I have 22 entries in settings, and 16 in settings manager
[19:39] <knome> cody-somerville, will you send a preliminary mail?
[19:40] <cody-somerville> I'd prefer someone else take that action.
[19:40] <charlie-tca> I will initiate an email
[19:40] <cody-somerville> I have one more thing I'd like to bring up for dev and I'm interested in taking the action item for that.
[19:40] <cody-somerville> Okay, great.
[19:40] <cody-somerville> The next thing I want to talk about is getting our seeds in order and to get ourselves set up with a package set for uploader permissions.
[19:40] <knome> cody-somerville, maybe send the urls you've read the complaints from to charlie-tca
[19:41] <charlie-tca> I have seen many of them already
[19:41] <knome> charlie-tca, great! i'm waiting for the mail anxiously.
[19:43] <mr_pouit> g, stupid phone
[19:43] <knome> mr_pouit, no problem.
[19:43] <mr_pouit> so, who will take care of the settings manager issue? charlie-tca?
[19:44] <knome> mr_pouit, yes, charlie will send mail to ML
[19:44] <knome> cody-somerville, i have no objections, especially if you were willing to take action on that.
[19:44] <mr_pouit> [ACTION] charlie-tca to send an email about the settings menu
[19:44] <charlie-tca> yup
[19:44] <MootBot> ACTION received:  charlie-tca to send an email about the settings menu
[19:44] <cody-somerville> knome, I appreciate you not objecting but I was actually looking for feedback from mr_pouit :P
[19:44] <knome> cody-somerville, ;]
[19:44] <mr_pouit> haha
[19:45] <knome> cody-somerville, maybe you should have pointed him with a finger then
[19:45] <mr_pouit> yeah, that's fine by me
[19:45] <mr_pouit> I'm not sure what you mean by "putting seeds in order"
[19:46] <mr_pouit> but the "uploader permission" stuff is part of the new archive architecture and will be needed, so that's a good idea
[19:46] <knome> like, taking the poppy seeds apart from the sunflower seeds and ordering them by size.
[19:47] <mr_pouit> knome: great, I'll copy that as an action for cody :P
[19:47]  * charlie-tca gets seeds in order when sticking them in the dirt
[19:47] <knome> mr_pouit, please do
[19:47] <cody-somerville> mr_pouit, I dunno but the TB mentioned it was necessary for the latter
[19:49] <mr_pouit> okay
[19:49] <knome> was that everything from the dev front now?
[19:50] <mr_pouit> [ACTION] cody-somerville to work on getting our seeds in order and to get ourselves set up with a package set for uploader
[19:50] <MootBot> ACTION received:  cody-somerville to work on getting our seeds in order and to get ourselves set up with a package set for uploader
[19:51] <mr_pouit> mmh, last topic is probably the governance structure, right?
[19:51] <knome> nope
[19:51] <knome> we still have teams left
[19:51] <charlie-tca> Team reports are due tomorrow. Let's try to get them in
[19:51] <knome> testing. charlie?
[19:52] <charlie-tca> We did testing
[19:52] <charlie-tca> We have many lucid testers filing bugs now.
[19:52] <charlie-tca> We could use more help with the iso testing before releases, though
[19:52] <knome> charlie-tca, any figures? do we have more testers than with karmic or intrepid?
[19:53] <knome> umm, jaunty...
[19:53] <charlie-tca> After I broke the system on the upgrade, it took me 12 hours to get it working again
[19:53] <charlie-tca> Many more than ever before. I have seen at least 8 or ten filing bugs
[19:53] <cody-somerville> Question: When we setup a council, will that council be responsible for approving new Xubuntu developers?
[19:53] <charlie-tca> Normally we don't see anybody filing bugs before the final images
[19:54] <knome> charlie-tca, great.
[19:54] <mr_pouit> I did some upgrade tests (hardy -> lucid and karmic -> lucid) some weeks ago, and I encountered no xubuntu specific issues
[19:54] <knome> cody-somerville, isn't that a thing for the governance topic
[19:54] <mr_pouit> cody-somerville: wait for the next topic :p
[19:54] <knome> cody-somerville, we're still at the team updates :)
[19:54] <charlie-tca> I don't think the upgrade bug I hit was xubuntu specific
[19:55] <charlie-tca> the main bugs we hit was the abiword help file, and the thunar bug
[19:55] <knome> yeah
[19:56] <charlie-tca> Unfortunately, we are still getting hit by the bugs caused by ubuntu developers dropping packages
[19:56] <mr_pouit> [ACTION] mr_pouit to perform new upgrade tests, to check for any xubuntu-specific failure
[19:56] <MootBot> ACTION received:  mr_pouit to perform new upgrade tests, to check for any xubuntu-specific failure
[19:56] <mr_pouit> (otherwise i'll forget)
[19:56] <cody-somerville> We need to make these team updates lightning fast for next time. Its already been almost an hour since this meeting started. lol.
[19:56] <charlie-tca> Is that going to include hardware tests?
[19:56] <knome> cody-somerville, yes.
[19:57] <knome> mr_pouit, you should control the discussion more :P
[19:57] <charlie-tca> Do we have any documentation updates?
[19:57] <knome> no, jim is taking a break.
[19:57] <mr_pouit> knome: hehe
[19:58] <knome> well, we pretty much went through where the artwork+marketing stuff is.
[19:58] <knome> == pending
[19:59] <mr_pouit> if we decide to hide some entries in the settings menu, we have to ensure that the docs don't refer to them
[19:59] <knome> true
[19:59] <knome> but if we remove the settings manager, that should be a relatively easy task
[20:00] <mr_pouit> yup, we'll wait for the mail :)
[20:00] <knome> okay.
[20:01] <knome> let's get to the governance stuff
[20:01] <mr_pouit> [TOPIC] governance structure
[20:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  governance structure
[20:01] <mr_pouit> ookay, so what's the current status?
[20:01] <mr_pouit> stalled probably
[20:01] <knome> yes. cody proposed that we take the edubuntu structure
[20:01] <mr_pouit> we've the policy from edubuntu indeed
[20:02] <knome> cody-somerville, can you introduce it to us briefly?
[20:02] <mr_pouit> does someone have the link to it?
[20:02] <knome> (or us to it)
[20:02] <cody-somerville> ummm... I just suggested we do as edubuntu do and get out butt in gear :P
[20:02] <cody-somerville> I'm not even sure how they set it up
[20:02]  * charlie-tca agrees +1
[20:03] <knome> well i talked with stgraber about it in london briefly
[20:03] <charlie-tca> Welllll, I propose picking 5 Council members today and set up the first meeting
[20:03] <pleia2> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/Council
[20:03] <knome> and i got the impression it works pretty well
[20:04] <pleia2> the Delegation document is helpful too
[20:04] <knome> and is pretty much the same what we actually proposed in the last meeting
[20:04] <pleia2> oh wait, that's just the main one, hmm
[20:04] <pleia2> the Charter is the important bit :)
[20:04] <knome> will the members be nominated by ~ubuntu-members for the xubuntu council?
[20:05] <cody-somerville> I doubt that'll prove to be helpful.
[20:05] <knome> i think this is pretty much the biggest difference: # Have a rotating chairman for each EC meeting based alphabetically on IRC nickname, in the event of a split vote the chairman will have an additional vote.
[20:05] <knome> (and i think the thing we are disagreeing about the most)
[20:05] <pleia2> well, nominations in general in the community tend to be pretty wide open
[20:06] <pleia2> it's voting that tends to matter
[20:06] <mr_pouit> except that xubuntu-focused ubuntu members are probably less than 10 people
[20:06] <knome> pleia2, "Be voted in by ~edubuntu-members with supervision by the Community Council;" as well
[20:06] <mr_pouit> so I'm not sure the vote will be meaningful :(
[20:07] <knome> yeah
[20:07] <cody-somerville> I'd recommend that we come up with a wiki page proposal.
[20:07] <pleia2> knome: *nod* that mostly meant the CC reviewed the candidates (for major problems, they were all fine really) and then set up the poll
[20:07] <knome> cody-somerville, about our governance?
[20:07] <cody-somerville> And then if we agree on it, take it to the CC for approval. If approved, we'll execute the proposed plan.
[20:07] <knome> pleia2, ah, right. :)
[20:07] <cody-somerville> Actually, I remembered something from the strategy document.
[20:07] <knome> which is?
[20:07] <cody-somerville> let me quote
[20:08] <cody-somerville> "Initially, the Xubuntu project leader will be the sole member of this team and no launchpad group will exist. When the Xubuntu project leader requires further individuals to be a member of the council, he or she will then create a launchpad team which will contain the members of the council."
[20:08] <cody-somerville> This sounds like mr_pouit has the ability to convene a council of his own devices :P
[20:08] <charlie-tca> yes, it does.
[20:08] <knome> cody-somerville, but the Doc doesn't really tell how to select those council members?
[20:08] <charlie-tca> He can pick the initial council members
[20:08] <pleia2> is this ~xubuntu-team on lp?
[20:09] <cody-somerville> pleia2, No.
[20:09] <mr_pouit> flip coin \o/
[20:09] <pleia2> a council team above it?
[20:09] <knome> mr_pouit, i'm heads and tails.
[20:09] <cody-somerville> pleia2, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/StrategyDocument#Xubuntu%20Contributors%20%28xubuntu-team%29
[20:09] <knome> mr_pouit, ;)
[20:09] <charlie-tca> mr_pouit: however you want to do it
[20:09] <pleia2> cody-somerville: thanks :)
[20:10] <cody-somerville> Suggestion: we come up with a proposal for a council, agree on it, and then have mr_pouit select who will fill the initial seats.
[20:11] <knome> 5 members?
[20:11] <knome> (incl. mr_pouit )
[20:11] <knome> i want to raise up the discussion about XPL veto vote
[20:12] <mr_pouit> fine by me, if you agree. We can alsohave the cc review the candidates if that's really needed
[20:12] <pleia2> 5 members with a deciding-vote-leader tends to work well
[20:12] <knome> mr_pouit, i don't think so, really
[20:12] <knome> agree with cody as well.
[20:12] <knome> no problems in that
[20:12] <cody-somerville> I'd like mr_pouit to make the decision on that. My suggestion is either 3 to start out with or if we go with 5 then I'd suggest making three of the five members developers and these three members have the exclusive responsibility to approve new Xubuntu developers.
[20:13] <charlie-tca> That makes the most sense
[20:13] <knome> cody-somerville, do you mean "at least 3 of 5" or "exactly 3 of 5" ?
[20:13] <pleia2> mr_pouit: at this stage I'd say you don't need cc to review - as the council matures and perhaps someday is able to approve new xubuntu-members (as part of the ubuntu-members team) that's when the cc should get involved
[20:13] <knome> cody-somerville, and what are you referring to with "developer" here :)
[20:13] <mr_pouit> knome: pleia2: ok
[20:13] <cody-somerville> knome, has upload permissions
[20:13] <mr_pouit> cody-somerville: do we have 3 developers? :D
[20:14] <mr_pouit> I think we are only 2 ^_^
[20:14] <knome> cody-somerville, we don't have 3 developers then.
[20:14]  * charlie-tca thinks there a many questions
[20:14] <pleia2> although, a note to the CC saying xubuntu has changed leadership and now has a first council is always appreciated :)
[20:14] <mr_pouit> yeah sure
[20:15] <cody-somerville> Also, its of course required to be a ubuntu member to serve on the Xubuntu council.
[20:15] <knome> mr_pouit, maybe write those down as [agreed]
[20:16] <mr_pouit> [AGREED] Proposed process: we come up with a proposal for a council, agree on it, and then have mr_pouit select who will fill the initial seats, and notify the CC about the leadership change
[20:16] <MootBot> AGREED received:  Proposed process: we come up with a proposal for a council, agree on it, and then have mr_pouit select who will fill the initial seats, and notify the CC about the leadership change
[20:16] <mr_pouit> semthing like that knome?
[20:17] <knome> mr_pouit, add: 5 members, members need to be ubuntu members
[20:17] <knome> (or n members, i don't know if we agreed on 5)
[20:17] <charlie-tca> Actually, mr_pouit can decide to have the council, and pick his members
[20:17] <mr_pouit> everyone seems to be happy with 5
[20:17] <knome> charlie-tca, sure, but we still want to propose it together. :)
[20:18] <SiDi> I think we should reach for 42.
[20:18] <cody-somerville> pleia2, To change the council from being appointed to being voted will require changing the Xubuntu strategy. This document is ratified by the CC. Will we not need permission from the CC to update it?
[20:18]  * SiDi is hiding again.
[20:18] <mr_pouit> *seem, bah
[20:18] <pleia2> cody-somerville: it will, I see the voting step as part of the council maturing
[20:18] <cody-somerville> pleia2, Okay.
[20:19] <knome> also, what about deciding vote?
[20:19] <knome> leader vote vs. the edubuntu way?
[20:19] <knome> edubuntu way for reminder: # Have a rotating chairman for each EC meeting based alphabetically on IRC nickname, in the event of a split vote the chairman will have an additional vote.
[20:19] <cody-somerville> Edubuntu doesn't seem to have a team lead role whereas Xubuntu does
[20:19] <mr_pouit> [AGREED] the council will consist of 5 members, who have to belong to ~ubuntu-members
[20:19] <MootBot> AGREED received:  the council will consist of 5 members, who have to belong to ~ubuntu-members
[20:19] <knome> cody-somerville, they do have two leaders
[20:20] <knome> cody-somerville, highvoltage and stgraber
[20:20] <cody-somerville> Ah.
[20:20] <knome> cody-somerville, afaik
[20:20] <pleia2> if there is a real split in the project, having a rotating tie-breaker doesn't work (they can just reverse the decision at the next meeting)
[20:20]  * cody-somerville nods.
[20:21] <pleia2> so in the case of xubuntu where there is a respected and recognised leader, I think it makes sense for them to be the tie-breaking chair on the council
[20:21] <cody-somerville> For us to revoke the XPL's ability to veto (which supersedes any authority the council has currently) will require us updating the strategy document and having the CC approve + ratify the updated document.
[20:21] <mr_pouit> I'm not really happy with the "more power/veto" idea actually
[20:22] <cody-somerville> mr_pouit, Then its simply a power you can choose to not exercise.
[20:22] <cody-somerville> We could still have a rotating chairman with casting vote
[20:23] <knome> mr_pouit, "-- more power/veto for XPL --" ?
[20:23] <pleia2> fwiw, going to the CC for ratification of a new strategy shouldn't be a big deal, it's easy to explain that the x-council is now being put in place and through discussion the team changed their mind about how it should be configured, the CC won't have a problem with this
[20:23] <mr_pouit> I can't find any advantage in it: if there's a real split, it's a big problem as anything can be changed the next meeting
[20:23] <mr_pouit> and if there's no problem and the council is okay, then this veto is useless
[20:23] <mr_pouit> so in both case, it's not very good
[20:24] <cody-somerville> thats only if the veto/casting vote rotates
[20:24] <cody-somerville> Currently you as the XPL has the ability to veto/have casting vote.
[20:24] <cody-somerville> You could in theory delegate this authority to a rotating chairman
[20:24]  * pleia2 nods
[20:24] <cody-somerville> then if there is a split, you can step in and exercise your authority as the XPL.
[20:25] <cody-somerville> And for folks who knome who are skirmish about such a situation, its important to remember that the CC is the presiding authority over the XPL. So if the XPL were to abuse their power, anyone is free to request the CC to intervene.
[20:25] <cody-somerville> *like knomw
[20:25] <cody-somerville> *like knome
[20:25] <knome> hah
[20:26]  * charlie-tca nods
[20:26] <knome> it's not about somebody abusing his/her power
[20:27] <knome> if the vote is about artwork and ends 2-2, artwork leader saying yes and XPL saying no, i'm not sure if XPL is the correct person to decide.
[20:27] <mr_pouit> (what is more likely to happen is that these folks will lose interest in contributing and step back rather than requesting a CC intervention imho)
[20:27] <cody-somerville> I doubt it
[20:27] <cody-somerville> If they're that passionate to be on the council, they're probably passionate enough to go to the CC.
[20:27] <knome> unfortunately i agree with mr_pouit.
[20:27] <cody-somerville> The escalation process is well defined and easy
[20:27] <highvoltage> stgraber and I are the release managers, but we don't have a leader as such
[20:28] <knome> that wouldn't be the case with me, but might be the case with somebody else.
[20:28] <highvoltage> it sounds a bit weird but it works for us
[20:28] <cody-somerville> knome, The artwork leader is only the artwork leader because the XPL has appointed that person
[20:28] <cody-somerville> knome, Their authority derives from the trust and delegation the XPL has placed in that individual.
[20:28] <pleia2> knome: honestly I don't know if I've ever seen a decision go like that, the chair/leaders in the community tend to respect the expertise of their key leaders
[20:29] <cody-somerville> knome, So the XPL is always the final buck since he or she is the one responsible for the overall direction and success of the project
[20:29] <knome> cody-somerville, yes, but the artwork lead probably is more "expertised" in artwork than the project leader, if the project leader belongs in the dev team.
[20:29] <mr_pouit> and with the rotating chairman idea, if the chairman is the doc team leader, and the topic is a technical topic, how is he supposed to decide?
[20:29] <knome> pleia2, we've had situations where cody disagrees with the rest of the dev team about some minor artwork detail and uses his veto.
[20:29] <mr_pouit> and the cc is completely useless on technical topics also (same for artwork, doc, etc.)
[20:29] <pleia2> knome: ah, ok
[20:30] <cody-somerville> knome, I don't recall such a case.
[20:30] <cody-somerville> knome, I recall disagreeing and as we've discussed in the pass that doesn't mean I've vetoed anything.
[20:30] <knome> cody-somerville, that was with the karmic release artwork, when you didn't like how the text was aligned and was unwilling to use the version i proposed.
[20:30] <highvoltage> mr_pouit: indeed, that definitely won't work for everyone. edubuntu is probably a rare exception where it could work since the whole council is technical
[20:31] <cody-somerville> *past
[20:31] <mr_pouit> highvoltage: ah, okay, that explains a lot ;)
[20:31] <cody-somerville> knome, ultimately your subsequent revision was a million times better and I'm pretty sure you agreed as well.
[20:32] <knome> cody-somerville, when a team leader is loyal to the (X)PL, he doesn't want to disobey and go on releasing with the (X)PL not agreeing
[20:32] <knome> cody-somerville, i don't think it was *that* much better.
[20:32] <knome> cody-somerville, the previous revision would have worked as good as the new one.
[20:32] <cody-somerville> Ultimately it was better and provided the level of professional for our public image that I was looking to maintain.
[20:33] <knome> that wasn't what you told then (at least not when you saw the first revision) and really, i think pretty much everybody agreed that the older revision was already awesome enough.
[20:34] <cody-somerville> I can't really find much sympathy for a situation where I pushed you to do better and you did.
[20:34] <charlie-tca> old and done
[20:34] <cody-somerville> charlie-tca, agreed.
[20:34] <cody-somerville> Shall we continue? We're 20 minutes away from this meeting being two hours.
[20:34] <charlie-tca> please
[20:35] <knome> cody-somerville, that leaves me with the image that you don't value what i did.
[20:35] <knome> cody-somerville, it was late night (probably over 1am) when you turned down my older revision.
[20:35] <charlie-tca> we all know knome is not going to agree to anything that says he can be overridden, so let's move away from that for now.
[20:36] <pleia2> I am inclined to suggest the team sticks to the letter of the strategy document at this time (which means XPL leads the council)
[20:37] <mr_pouit> okay, I still disagree with the "overriding" part… Anyway, someone volunteers to work on the draft for the council?
[20:37] <pleia2> mr_pouit: as the XPL, I'd say you have the descretion to say that you will not exercise that part
[20:38] <pleia2> (actually I didn't see overriding in the strat doc)
[20:38] <pleia2> just "own and lead"
[20:39] <cody-somerville> "The project lead also has the casting vote/veto ability. This capacity is not used lightly. The community functions best when it can reach broad consensus about a way forward. However, it is not uncommon in the open source world for there to be multiple good arguments, no clear consensus, and for arguments to divide communities rather than enrich them. The argument absorbs the energy that might otherwise have gone towards t
[20:39] <cody-somerville> he creation of a solution. In many cases, there is no one "right" answer, and what is needed is a decision more than a debate. The project lead should act to provide clear leadership on difficult issues, and set the pace for the project. It is understood that the divisive use of the project leads authority could weaken the project. For that reason the authority is used carefully, in the hope that it will create momentum in t
[20:39] <cody-somerville> he best direction for the project, breaking stalemates where otherwise competing views would fail to reach consensus."
[20:39] <pleia2> ah, there we go :)
[20:40] <cody-somerville> mr_pouit, I agree to take the action item
[20:42] <mr_pouit> [ACTION] cody-somerville to work on the draft policy document for the council
[20:42] <MootBot> ACTION received:  cody-somerville to work on the draft policy document for the council
[20:42] <mr_pouit> and for once, let's try to discuss this topic and the ml also
[20:42] <mr_pouit> otherwise we do never-ending meetings
[20:42] <cody-somerville> kk
[20:44] <mr_pouit> ok I think we're done then
[20:44] <mr_pouit> anything left?
[20:44] <cody-somerville> I don't have anything
[20:45] <charlie-tca> nothing here
[20:45] <mr_pouit> #endmeeting
[20:45] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 15:45.
[20:45] <charlie-tca> Thanks to everybody for showing up
[20:45] <mr_pouit> no, thank you ;)
[20:46]  * charlie-tca thinks he made knome mad, though