[02:51] <leftyfb> So has it been decided that the window control buttons are going to remain on the wrong side?
[03:08] <bratsche> Check the bug report.
[03:08] <bratsche> Or the flamefest on the mailing list.
[03:09] <leftyfb> bratsche: I don't know the location of either of these
[03:09] <bratsche> Google does.
[03:10] <leftyfb> Oh, I'm sorry. I was told this would be a helpful place to get these sort of answers.
[03:11] <bratsche> Sorry, I guess I should have just not answered.  I don't know anything newer than what's in those two places, and I'm not interested enough to actually follow them.
[03:12] <bratsche> I guess I don't really understand why it's such a big deal, so I haven't been paying attention.
[03:27] <lifeless> bratsche: :P
[03:27] <lifeless> bratsche: its a big deal because its shallow and easy to think about
[03:27] <lifeless> complex things noone has an opinion on
[03:27] <bratsche> This is why I'm not on jono's team.  I don't know how to deal with people. :)
[03:28] <lifeless> bratsche: can be taught
[03:28] <Nafai> bratsche: :)
[03:28] <lifeless> bratsche: I don't think you're bad at it :)
[03:28] <bratsche> I don't want to learn.  I hate people. :)
[03:29]  * Nafai looks forward to meeting bratsche in person
[03:29] <Nafai> :)
[03:29] <bratsche> haha
[03:39] <lifeless> bratsche: haha LIES!
[06:04] <pitti> Good morning
[06:36] <igoryonya> hello, is there a way to do in gnome something similar to windows explorer extensions and where do I find that information?. I need to add some programs to context menu that will appear, when you right-click on the certain file or folder or always.
[06:38] <Nafai> igoryonya: #ubuntu-app-devel might be a better channel for this question, but you'll want to look at nautilus extensions
[06:39] <igoryonya> Nafai: thanx
[06:44] <robert_ancell> pitti, can you have a quick look at a UI change in simple-scan (bug #543384) and see if that would be a problem
[06:45] <robert_ancell> pitti, also there's a number of grammar fixes for gbrainy that should be applied.  Will these be a big issue for a freeze break?
[06:48] <pitti> robert_ancell: hey, how are you?
[06:49] <robert_ancell> pitti, hey, good :)
[06:49] <pitti> robert_ancell: gbrainy> is it possible to apply the grammar fixes in all the .po files as well, to avoid breaking translations?
[06:49] <robert_ancell> pitti, as in take the .po changes from upstream?
[06:50] <pitti> robert_ancell: ah, did they fix it there?
[06:50] <pitti> (or "you"?)
[06:51] <robert_ancell> pitti, yeah, the fixes are coming because gbrainy is getting a lot of testing from being in the betas.  I wanted to review all the puzzles for Lucid as the author is not a native english speaker but that got skipped when I went to OEM.  So he's basically been fixing like crazy based on feedback from Ubuntu users
[06:51] <pitti> sweet :)
[06:51] <pitti> robert_ancell: so, grammar fixes are alright, it'd just be nice to not just do them in the code, but also in the .po files
[06:52] <pitti> (upstream, preferably; we don't want to break it for everyone else)
[06:52] <robert_ancell> pitti, np, I'll just make a big patch with meld and open a bug report for the freeze request
[06:54] <pitti> robert_ancell: simple-scan> replied to the bug (easier to keep discussion there)
[07:06] <didrocks> good morning
[07:08] <pitti> bonjour didrocks
[07:09] <didrocks> Guten Morgen pitti
[07:12] <didrocks> pitti: Albin pinged me about bug #538680, can you have a look at it when you have some time? (he is the DD responsible of that package and a MOTU too)
[07:13] <pitti> didrocks: sounds like ubuntu-archive should be subscribed to that one?
[07:13] <pitti> didrocks: ah, it is already; seems sensible
[07:14] <didrocks> pitti: right, he's just pinging me to ensure it's done by beta 2, I guess :)
[07:38] <didrocks> thanks pitti :)
[07:38] <pitti> de rien
[08:46] <seb128> hello!
[08:46] <pitti> bonjour seb128
[08:49] <pitti> seb128: after fixing control-center, I don't want to hear about keyboard layouts again. EVAR! :-)
[08:50] <seb128> lol
[08:50]  * seb128 hugs pitti for winning the great keyboard battle
[08:52] <pitti> didrocks: new p-distutils-e uploaded, with the buffering fix, FYI
[08:53] <seb128> pitti, I did subscribe you to some extra gvfs automount bugs btw, hope it's ok
[08:53] <didrocks> pitti: oh sweet!
[08:53] <seb128> lut didrocks
[08:53] <didrocks> hey seb128 ;)
[08:53] <pitti> after those two, that should get me on #2 again, one more than kirkland :-P
[08:53] <seb128> pitti, I understand the stack now but I'm still not sure what to look for in the logs
[08:53] <pitti> seb128: absolutely; I saw them, will look at them soon
[08:53] <pitti> seb128: also, automounting is my pet project, I'm happy to do those bugs
[08:53] <seb128> ie I don't see what is wrong
[08:54] <seb128> didrocks, sorry about gtk
[08:54] <seb128> didrocks, I did the update, I rebased bzr though
[08:54] <seb128> didrocks, but you might have to refresh some patches now
[08:54] <didrocks> seb128: yeah, I saw, no pb, will do
[08:54] <seb128> thanks
[08:54] <didrocks> seb128: can you NEW atk and pango when you have a sec, please?
[08:55] <seb128> yes, I was just thinking about it while writting there ;-)
[08:55] <seb128> I forgot yesterday
[08:55] <didrocks> no pb ;)
[08:55] <seb128> didrocks, had a good night otherwise?
[08:55] <didrocks> I'm finishing/testing the gdm mess and then, jump into that
[08:55] <seb128> cool
[08:55] <didrocks> seb128: oh yes, a needed one :)
[08:55] <didrocks> seb128: and you?
[08:55] <seb128> lut davidbarth
[08:55] <seb128> didrocks, quite good thanks
[08:55] <seb128> didrocks, I managed to get to bed a bit late but not very late ;-)
[08:56] <pitti> seb128, kenvandine: I'm sorry if that sounds dumb, but my messaging indicator now has "Broadcast"; that seems to open gwibber; I've heard "twittering" and "microblogging", which seem to be the usual terms for it; but "broadcast"??
[08:56] <didrocks> seb128: I had a look at precisely that this morning. But as I told "I'm off now" at 8PM and finally left at 10PM, I can't say anything on that :p
[08:57] <didrocks> pitti: in French, it sounds better (it was an unexisting word before "microbloggage"). Sounds ugly :)
[08:59] <seb128> pitti, we discussed that with mvo and ted yesterday too
[08:59] <seb128> pitti, "twitter" is copyrighted
[08:59] <seb128> we can't use it
[08:59] <pitti> and microblogging?
[08:59] <mvo> I got feedback like this too from upgrade tests
[08:59] <seb128> that's what we used before
[08:59] <mvo> broadcast is really confusing
[08:59] <seb128> not sure why design decided on broadcast rather than microblogging
[09:00] <seb128> I would prefer microblogging too for what is worth
[09:00] <seb128> it's probably feedback to bring to sabdfl or mpt though
[09:01]  * mvo is currently in the world-of-pain of bzr format incompatbilities and in a bad mood because of that
[09:02] <pitti> mvo: bzr upgrade?
[09:03] <mvo> pitti: webui upgrade does not work, bzr+ssh upgrade does not work, I'm trying sftp upgrae now, for each upgrade it downloads 60mb of data before it fails
[09:03] <mvo> bzr+ssh fails with "backup.bzr" exists *even* if I deleted it before via nautilus (that takes 5min as well)
[09:04] <pitti> yes, the webui upgrade doesn't work for me either
[09:04] <pitti> but rm -r backup.bzr in lftp (or nautilus) and bzr upgrade bzr+ssh:// usually does
[09:04] <pitti> hmm
[09:05] <pitti> so I bought an Album from the music store, and "My downloads" says "showing 1 to 0 of 0 downloads"
[09:05] <mvo> not for me, I asked in #bzr already and no luck. oh well, I will keep trying. bzr and I used to be best buddies, but this is a real dent in our relationship
[09:07]  * pitti hugs mvo
[09:07] <vish> mvo: hi.. could you have a look at the patch in Bug #393358 ... [, it's a small/simple patch ]
[09:08] <didrocks> ok, just need to connect gdmsetup to the dbus signal and I don't want to hear this damned sound ever :)
[09:08] <seb128> didrocks, :-)
[09:10] <mvo> vish: sure, will do that now
[09:10] <vish> thanks.
[09:11] <mvo> vish: hm, its a string change, we need a UI freeze exception for it
[09:11] <vish> hmm.. :s   , i should probably have pinged you earlier :(
[09:11] <mvo> vish: otherwise its trivial, I can import it into the ubuntu-ui-changes branch that I created to accumulate fixes like this (so that we only need one UI freeze exception)
[09:12] <mvo> vish: sorry from me too, I'm not great at triage
[09:13] <vish> mvo: that would be awesome  :)   do all the accumulated fixes get UIffe at the same time or each bug needs to be dealt separate?
[09:15] <mvo> vish: I think one "big" one, its not that much that I have currently, so I hope it will be ok
[09:16] <vish> neat..
[09:32] <pitti> seb128: did you already dist-upgrade and restart session today?
[09:34] <seb128> pitti, the mini yes, not my laptop
[09:34] <seb128> pitti, why?
[09:35] <pitti> seb128: if you have a second, mind to connect your ipod and see what happens?
[09:35] <pitti> previously you got two dialogs (gphoto and afc), right?
[09:35] <seb128> pitti, oh yes, wanted to check that
[09:36] <seb128> brb door bell
[09:40] <seb128> re
[09:40] <seb128> easier than that
[09:40] <seb128> let's connect the ipod to the mini now
[09:41] <seb128> pitti, right, I only get 2 instead of 3 now
[09:41] <seb128> and the rhythmbox change to not consider afc devices as mtp devices reading the new udev properties works too
[09:41] <seb128> sweet
[09:42] <pitti> seb128: one for camera, one for music?
[09:42] <pitti> ok, that's back to the old problem then
[09:42] <seb128> yes
[09:42] <seb128> what old problem?
[09:42] <seb128> I'm not even sure it can be considered buggy
[09:43] <pitti> not really buggy, just a little confusing
[09:43] <seb128> it's slightly, but technically the ipod touch has the camera mtp device
[09:43] <pitti> I don't have a better idea either
[09:43] <pitti> same for my G1; after all, it is a camera _and_ a music player
[09:43] <seb128> it just lacks the optic device
[09:43] <seb128> well you do have a camero on the g1 though?
[09:43] <seb128> like the iphone
[09:44] <pitti> it'd be slightly nicer to merge those two dialogs into one
[09:44] <seb128> the touch doesn't have the electronic part for it
[09:44] <pitti> seb128: yes, I do have a camera there
[09:44] <seb128> but it has the same software stack
[09:44] <seb128> the photo import dialog works too
[09:44] <seb128> you can only import screenshots though
[09:58] <glatzor> mvo, hello
[09:58] <glatzor> mvo, I just pushed debconf unittests to aptdaemon's main branch
[09:59] <glatzor> mvo, my latest patch seems to catch the race conditions
[09:59] <mvo> glatzor: woah, you *rock*
[09:59]  * mvo hugs glatzor very hard
[10:00] <mvo> glatzor: I will update the branch after lunch (need to finish some other stuff first)
[10:03] <didrocks> seb128: is there a specific bug for the sound thing in gdm?
[10:03] <seb128> didrocks, yes
[10:04] <seb128> it's on the gdmsetup spec wait
[10:04] <didrocks> I don't find it on https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-lucid-gdmsetup
[10:05] <seb128> didrocks, look on the right side
[10:05] <seb128> "ug #437429: No GUI to configure/disable login sound"
[10:05] <didrocks> seb128: oh right, never noticed you can link blueprint and bugs
[10:05] <seb128> "Bug #437429: No GUI to configure/disable login sound"
[10:05] <didrocks> seb128: sweet, thanks
[10:05] <seb128> didrocks, np
[10:18] <Ng> hrm, after this morning's updates rhythmbox has broken for me, and starting it (from docky in this case) has left me with a weird situation where it keeps starting and crashing and somehow starting again
[10:21] <Ng> I've killed docky and it's still starting and crashing every 2s
[10:21] <Ng> what on earth is restarting it?!
[10:21] <Ng> oh no, this is going to be dbus, isn't it
[10:23] <Ng> is there any way for me to inspect what's trying to talk to rhythmbox's dbus service?
[10:23] <Ng> either that thing doggedly keeps trying, or dbus isn't sensible to back off services that don't start correctly
[10:28] <Ng> it's not the indicator apple, or u1-syncdaemon
[10:29] <Ng> huh, unplugging my iphone let it start up correctly
[10:30] <seb128> Ng, run in a command line and see if it crashes?
[10:32] <pitti> seb128: btw, are you aware of a bug about the unmount/eject/save removal menu cleanup? if not, I'll create one
[10:32] <seb128> pitti, there is one about having 3 options being confused
[10:32] <seb128> with a zillion comment
[10:32] <pitti> ah, that sounds appropriate
[10:32] <seb128> and a hundredpapercut task
[10:33] <seb128> let me get you the number
[10:33] <Ng> seb128: annoyingly it started just fine with -d both with the phone already plugged in, or with plugging it in after rb started, but I have a crashdump to feed to LP
[10:33] <pitti> seb128: bug 453072 ?
[10:33] <seb128> pitti, yes
[10:33] <pitti> seb128: heh, incidentally that was the first hit when I wanted to file a new bug; LP search is pretty good these days
[10:34] <seb128> hehe
[10:34]  * pitti targets to lucid and assigns
[10:35] <Ng> seb128: fwiw launchpad suggested a bunch of dupes, 5 of which were opened in the last 14 hours and they all seem to relate to iphones or new ipod touches, so I'll dupe&confirm :)
[10:35] <seb128> Ng, ok thanks
[10:36] <seb128> Ng, can you give the bug number?
[10:36] <Ng> seb128: the lowest number is bug #545077. they're mostly all still awaiting retrace, so still private
[10:36]  * Ng grumbles at his LP duck
[10:37] <seb128> I bet they crashed again
[10:37]  * seb128 looks
[10:37] <seb128> indeed
[10:37]  * seb128 removes lock
[10:37] <seb128> lazr.restfulclient.errors.HTTPError: HTTP Error 500: Internal Server Error
[10:37] <seb128> they keep crashing on that
[10:38] <seb128> wououh, didrocks rocks
[10:38] <seb128> didrocks, congrats on getting the gdm change in!
[10:38] <didrocks> seb128: heh thanks, *finally* :)
[10:39] <seb128> didrocks, can you email the translators about the string added too? or talk to dpm about emailing those
[10:39] <didrocks> seb128: sure, was on my todo, just finish to launch a gtk build in the meantime (better to do other things when gtk is building) :)
[10:39] <seb128> ;-)
[10:40]  * seb128 grabs coffee when gtk is building usually
[10:40] <seb128> speaking of which
[10:40] <seb128> brb grabbing some coffee now
[10:40] <didrocks> seb128: a long coffee, so :)
[10:40] <seb128> lol
[10:40] <didrocks> heh
[10:48] <seb128> didrocks, pitti: do you use gthumb usually? do you consider 2.11 as unstable?
[10:49] <pitti> seb128: I have used it once only since we upgraded 2.11 (I don't do a lot of photos these days), and it was pretty buggy
[10:49] <pitti> Q-FUNK pointed out some good points yesterday
[10:49] <seb128> ok, I sort of not trust him though so I would other opinion before downgrading version
[10:49] <pitti> seb128: unless you object, I'd like to do the downgrade and instead fix the libgphoto unmounting
[10:49] <pitti> (if it was broken)
[10:49] <seb128> especially we should sync on debian first, it seems it would fix stability issues
[10:50] <seb128> well I've no strong opinion either way, just that I don't trust him on such things
[10:50] <pitti> seb128: we do have the latest Debian version already
[10:50] <seb128> he often argue thinking his workflow is the only one which counts
[10:50] <seb128> ok
[10:50] <seb128> that was supposed to fix some of the crashers
[10:51] <seb128> I don't know enough about the changes to judge otherwise
[10:51] <didrocks> seb128: pitti: if we downgrade, we should still fix the gvfs patch for gthumb so that we can import photo
[10:51] <pitti> didrocks: yes, what I said above
[10:51] <pitti> 2.10 had been rock solid
[10:51] <baptistemm> good morning
[10:52] <seb128> 2.11 is not?
[10:52] <seb128> it uses recent technologies and is maintained
[10:52] <seb128> but we can probably delay getting it to next cycle
[10:52] <pitti> reportedly it dropped a lot of features and has a half-written gio port
[10:52] <pitti> seb128: I can play around with it a little more later today
[10:52] <seb128> it's in universe
[10:53] <dpm> seb128, ok, I'll take care of that (gdmsetup string), didrocks just talked to me
[10:53] <seb128> I think we should let motu deal with it
[10:53] <seb128> dpm, hey
[10:53] <seb128> dpm, thanks!
[10:53] <pitti> universe> yes, but it's sooo much better than f-spot :-P
[10:53]  * pitti ducks
[10:53] <seb128> lol
[10:53] <seb128> you try shotwell
[10:53] <dpm> no worries, thanks for the heads up guys
[10:53] <seb128> that's the futur apparently ;-)
[10:53] <pitti> seb128: I didn't, no; you?
[10:53] <seb128> I did
[10:53] <seb128> it's quite nice
[10:54] <seb128> it's written in vala too
[10:54]  * pitti installs
[10:54] <pitti> ok, so (1) fix gvfs, (2) get lunch, (3) try shotwell, (4) check gthumb
[10:55] <seb128> ;-)
[10:55] <seb128> gvfs is broken?
[10:55] <pitti> argh, it has again this "import photos" thing?
[10:56] <pitti> why can't I just point programs to "this is my photo dir"
[10:56] <pitti> ah, it just thumbnails
[10:56] <pitti> seb128: so, if it would use ~/.cache instead of ~/.shotwell, the import seems quite okay :)
[10:57] <pitti> seb128: hm, it seems to lump them together in one big list?
[10:58] <pitti> ok, seems this still isn't for me then -- I organize by directory :(
[10:58] <pitti> seb128: thanks for pointing out
[10:58] <pitti> seb128: gvfs> bug 481528
[10:59] <seb128> Ng, the crash should be fixed with today updates
[10:59] <pitti> seb128: trying to clear my +assignedbugs list, and this should be easy to fix
[10:59] <seb128> Ng, it was an issue with old usmuxd
[10:59] <seb128> the new one set the property required
[10:59] <seb128> pitti, ah nice
[11:00] <pitti> seb128: ugh, gvfs crashes with old usbmuxd?
[11:00] <seb128> pitti, one list + by date using tags
[11:00] <pitti> that sounds like a bug
[11:00] <seb128> pitti, rhythmbox does
[11:00] <seb128> pitti, it's a bug, teuf fixed it in git
[11:00] <pitti> ah, good
[11:00] <seb128> pitti, I was wondering why it doesn't happen there
[11:00] <cassidy> seb128, you probably one tp-sofiasip 0.6.2 in Lucid; it workarounds an Empathy freeze : https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=612460
[11:00] <cassidy> s/one/want
[11:00] <seb128> pitti, that's because it was happening only with the udev rules you added yesterday
[11:00] <pitti> seb128: we shouldn't count on devices having udev properties; but the check looked quite robust (in gvfs)
[11:00] <seb128> cassidy, thanks
[11:01] <cassidy> seb128, I think it's packaged in Debian
[11:01] <seb128> pitti, right, http://git.gnome.org/browse/rhythmbox/commit/?id=5a4c30a2b1c939b48eb1a8f86ebe95b052d5ad03
[11:01] <pitti> seb128: ah, I see; so it crashed _because_  it was now using the correct backend? :-)
[11:01] <pitti> sweet
[11:02] <seb128> cassidy, ok good
[11:06] <pitti> didrocks: *hug* for gdmsetup; great job!
[11:06]  * pitti hugs seb128 as well
[11:07]  * didrocks hugs pitti
[11:07]  * seb128 hugs didrocks pitti too
[11:08]  * didrocks hugs seb128 too ;)
[11:08] <Ng> seb128: hrm, maybe usbmuxd was already running because my phone was plugged in all morning, but I had already updated
[11:08] <Thraul> I am trying to remaster a ubuntu desktop cd for personal use. I can make small changes such as desktop background, theme etc on the boot (livecd), now how do I edit the menus and add desktop icons to the live cd?
[11:08] <Ng> seb128: thanks :)
[11:10] <seb128> Ng, np
[11:10] <seb128> Thraul, hi, not really a question for this channel, try #ubuntu
[11:11] <Thraul> ok thanks
[11:11] <aquarius> pitti, ping
[11:12] <seb128> hey aquarius
[11:12] <pitti> aquarius: please don't ping, just ask the question
[11:12] <pitti> aquarius: hello, how are you?
[11:13] <aquarius> pitti, heya, wasn't sure if you were around :) You deliberately bought a WMA album despite the warning?
[11:13] <pitti> aquarius: well, it said "we do not recommend", not "it's broken"; it sounded like you'd rather want to avoid trouble with codecs?
[11:13] <aquarius> You have uncovered a bug by doing this, which is that the back end doesn't show you WMA files because it assumes no-one will buy them :P
[11:13] <pitti> aquarius: that album was only available as WMA..
[11:13] <seb128> james_w, there?
[11:14] <pitti> aquarius: ah, heh :)
[11:14] <seb128> james_w, I need your help on a bzr issue if you are around and have a minute to help me on this one
[11:14] <aquarius> good catch :)
[11:14] <pitti> aquarius: I was going to download it and convert to ogg
[11:14] <pitti> I don't hate mp3 enough to go through the hassle/quality loss of reconverting them, but I convert everything else
[11:18] <aquarius> pitti, unfortunately that album will remain in limbo and undownloadable until that bug is fixed :(
[11:18] <aquarius> hey seb128
[11:19] <pitti> aquarius: not a big deal; it's not _that_ urgent :)
[11:19] <aquarius> thank you for being so considerate. Most people are not :)
[11:19] <pitti> aquarius: my primary goal was to test the music store, and Katie Melua was one of the first artists I thought of (my Pink Floyd collection is already complete..)
[11:20] <pitti> aquarius: happy to be testing :) the store looks great really, and nice
[11:20] <pitti> ... and large choice
[11:20] <pitti> aquarius: they even have "Wise Guys", a relatively small German A-Capella band
[11:20] <seb128> aquarius, how is feedback looking so far for the store?
[11:21] <aquarius> pitti, cool! The German store is one of the three complete stores :)
[11:21] <pitti> aquarius: while I'm at whining; do you guys plan to add a progress dialog of some sort? when I click on "U1 music store", nothing happens for about 20 or 30 secs, then I finally see it
[11:21] <aquarius> seb128, so far...pretty good, actually. The bugs that have come in are either largely cosmetic or they're around the inegration with logging in
[11:21] <seb128> cool
[11:22] <aquarius> pitti, yep. Already done in dev. When a package upload request with a UI freeze break comes through from kenvandine, you'll know why ;)
[11:22] <pitti> sweet
[11:22] <pitti> aquarius: jamendo etc. have a "loading song list..." or so in the standard progress bar in RB, AFAIR
[11:22] <seb128> "    - Show a temporary view when loading the initial store page (LP: #530247)"
[11:22] <seb128> was uploaded yesterday
[11:22] <seb128> in libubuntuone
[11:23] <pitti> hm, I have that
[11:23] <pitti> oh, it's just a small text, I might have missed it
[11:26] <aquarius> ah, no, there's two aspects to the loading stuff. one is the temporary view, which is now in; the other is a proper loading indicator, which we have mockups for but no code yet
[11:47] <didrocks> seb128: thanks for the NEWING btw. New gtk uploaded in ubuntu-desktop team ppa
[11:47] <seb128> didrocks, np; thanks, any reason to not upload to lucid now?
[11:47] <seb128> didrocks, you want to to review the change before?
[11:48] <seb128> hum
[11:48] <didrocks> seb128: not sure if enabling introspection can break something, but at least having a test on clutter and clutter-gtk will be good
[11:48] <seb128> how do people download tarballs with merge-upstream?
[11:48] <seb128> in the old workflow I used to bzr merge lp:
[11:48] <seb128> dch -
[11:48] <seb128> bzr-buildpackage
[11:49] <seb128> didrocks, ok
[11:49] <didrocks> seb128: bzr bd -e or just running uscan
[11:50] <didrocks> would be good if merge-upstream can do that for us so that we just have to point to upstream bzr branch, nothing else :)
[11:50] <seb128> right
[11:52] <seb128> didrocks, well bzr bd -e relies on the changelog no?
[11:52] <seb128> but if you update the changelog before merging it doesn't work
[11:52] <seb128> it doesn't merge if there are uncommited changes
[11:53] <seb128> or you need to update changelog, commit and merge
[11:58] <didrocks> seb128: oh right, uscan so
[11:58] <seb128> righto
[11:58] <seb128> time for lunch
[11:58] <seb128> bbl
[11:58] <didrocks> same here, bll :)
[11:58] <didrocks> bbl*
[12:07] <asac_> bryceh: http://pastebin.com/FzYXbnkW ... should i commit that anywhere before uploading?
[12:24] <tjaalton> asac_: there's 1.7.6-1u1 in the works (git.d.o)
[12:26] <asac_> tjaalton: can you try to apply the patch there?
[12:26] <asac_> and see if it still applies cleanly?
[12:26]  * asac_ would hope so
[12:33] <tjaalton> asac_: if you are in a hurry you can upload it as-is, and we'll make sure it applies on top of the new version (no reason why it wouldn't). rename the patch though, "111" is available :)
[12:34] <tjaalton> asac_: also, send it upstream http://wiki.x.org/wiki/Development/Documentation/SubmittingPatches
[12:34] <kenvandine> good morning folks
[12:34] <seb128> hey kenvandine
[12:34] <asac_> tjaalton: its not ready for upstream (see changelog)
[12:35] <seb128> kenvandine, I'm updating indicator-me just for information
[12:35] <kenvandine> seb128, thanks for the sponsoring
[12:35] <seb128> kenvandine, np
[12:35] <kenvandine> cool, thx
[12:35] <asac_> tjaalton: whats the problem with 250 ;)
[12:35] <seb128> kenvandine, I'm switching to the ubuntu namespace too
[12:35] <tjaalton> asac_: bloat! :)
[12:35] <seb128> kenvandine, so make sure you down pull from the ubuntu-desktop one next time
[12:35] <kenvandine> seb128, will do
[12:35] <kenvandine> thx
[12:35] <seb128> np
[12:35] <asac_> tjaalton: i usually add stuff on top
[12:35] <asac_> when using 111 it means i inject it in the middle ;)
[12:35] <tjaalton> asac_: so 201
[12:35] <seb128> I will update the changelog with a warning too in the old location
[12:36] <seb128> to avoid errors
[12:36] <asac_> tjaalton: ok. that makes more send ;)
[12:36] <asac_> sense
[12:36] <tjaalton> probably should just drop the numbers
[12:36] <tjaalton> they are meaningless anyway
[12:37] <tjaalton> but after lucid
[12:37] <asac_> yeah
[12:37] <asac_> ok renamed ... also using - for the word splits and added to series which i previously forgot
[12:37] <asac_> will push
[12:37] <tjaalton> ok
[13:11] <Laney> Do you guys think it's a bug that http_proxy isn't set in the graphical session? ie when launching apps from the gnome menu or gnome-do
[13:12] <pitti> Laney: it sounds like a bug; but last time I tried this, it worked for me
[13:12] <pitti> (when configuring the proxy with the capplet)
[13:12] <Laney> yes, I used that
[13:13] <seb128> launchpad has zillion of proxy bugs listed
[13:13] <Laney> I tried to look on bugzilla
[13:13] <seb128> look to gnome-control-center bugs
[13:13] <seb128> not sure how much our code is different from upstream there
[13:14] <seb128> there is quite some changes from mvo to set system values
[13:14] <Laney> I guess gnome-terminal reads from gconf to export it there, right?
[13:15] <mvo> Laney: yep
[13:15] <mvo> seb128: I did not touch the general mechanism, just the "write stuff out to system", so there should be no change in behavior
[13:16] <Laney> mvo: Is there a bug here then?
[13:17] <mvo> Laney: my understanding is that the gui apps are responsible to get the proxy via gconf (unless libproxy is used)
[13:17] <mvo> Laney: stuff in the terminal is lucky because gnome-terminal sets http_proxy based on gconf
[13:17] <Laney> oh, that's annoying behaviour then
[13:17] <Laney> http_proxy would be a good interface
[13:18] <Laney> although I guess there are corner cases with no_proxy
[13:19] <seb128> mvo, oh, good to know
[13:19] <mvo> well…
[13:20] <mvo> I guess it could be exported session wide as http_proxy
[13:20] <mvo> but that is not how its done currently
[13:20] <Laney> So the reason I'm looking at this is because I noticed that docky doesn't work behind a proxy
[13:20] <Laney> and that's because mono's DefaultWebProxy implementation relies on the env vars
[13:24] <mvo> heh :)
[13:24] <mvo> libproxy seems to be what is meant to solve the issue
[13:26] <Laney> indeed
[13:26] <Laney> but it's not part of gnome, and consequently isn't used very much
[13:27] <Laney> is exporting the env vars to the session something that can be done in lucid?
[13:27] <Laney> or does it require more discussion?
[13:30] <mvo> the disadvantage is that its much less dynamic, the env would be set at session startup and set in stone
[13:30] <mvo> gconf is much better in that regard
[13:30] <mvo> so it would have to be "a) look at gconf and use that b) look at http_proxy env and use that"
[13:30] <Laney> could it not be updated when the user edits it?
[13:31] <mvo> the advantage of course is that it would make all apps suddenly work, even if they do not look at gconf
[13:31] <mclasen> Laney: libsoup uses libproxy
[13:32] <mvo> it would only work for newly started apps if anything, not for already running ones. so I guess its not that useful
[13:32] <Laney> I would argue that working somewhat is better than working never
[13:33] <Laney> at least until libproxy is widely used
[13:33] <Laney> ...needs the mono bindings enabled too :)
[13:34] <Laney> this non-dynamic behaviour is what broken apps experience when launched from the terminal anyway
[13:35] <mvo> true, there are corner cases however. its not uncommon that http_proxy takes precedence over gconf in a app (so that user can run "http_proxy=some-proxy" gedit). those would break badly
[13:35] <mvo> well, not badly, but break when dyanmically switching the proxy settings
[13:36] <mvo> so my take is that its not appropriate (at this point) for lucid and needs discussion
[13:36] <Laney> alright
[13:36] <mvo> sorry
[13:36] <Laney> there is some code in f-spot to read from gconf anyway that I can copy to docky
[13:37] <mvo> cool
[13:37] <mvo> if that could travel into mono itself, that would rock
[13:37] <mvo> (not sure if mono can dynamically import gconf easily and deal with the case when its not there, but I guess that is possible)
[13:38] <Laney> yeah I don't know how that would work
[13:38] <Laney> it would need to be generalised too to have proper events
[13:43] <seb128> pedro_, hey
[13:43] <pedro_> hey hey seb128
[13:43] <seb128> pedro_, how are you?
[13:44] <pedro_> seb128, things are going good, thanks. what about you?
[13:44] <mvo> hey pedro_
[13:44] <pedro_> hola mvo!
[13:44] <seb128> pedro_, good, thank you
[13:45] <seb128> pedro_, thanks for picking those lucid bugs you assign to our team btw
[13:46] <pedro_> seb128, you're welcome, i've been reviewing some on the telepathy stack, we were missing some that were filed at the pymsn product
[13:46] <pedro_> i've reassigned those to papyon now
[13:46] <seb128> pedro_, speaking of those, the telepathy-butterfly ones, could you check if those are crashes or just apport noise?
[13:46] <seb128> we probably not need to put high for those which are just noise
[13:47] <pedro_> seb128, by apport noise you mean the ones that generate a stacktrace but doesn't crash the application (empathy) ?
[13:48] <pedro_> because most of them are like that, they don't crash empathy but they do generate a stacktrace
[13:49] <seb128> pedro_, yes, I guess you reassign and set high due to duplicates?
[13:49] <seb128> ie the number of duplicates those get
[13:49] <pedro_> seb128, correct, based on number of dups and users affected
[13:49] <seb128> but if those don't have visible effect that's not high since apport doesn't run on stable
[13:49] <seb128> you see what I mean?
[13:50] <pedro_> seb128, yes, got it
[13:52] <seb128> pedro_, thanks
[13:52] <seb128> pedro_, oh, other thing
[13:52] <pedro_> you're welcome
[13:52] <seb128> pedro_, I got the impression by reading bug emails than gedit is crashing in lucid, did you notice that too?
[13:53] <seb128> would be good to upstream those of those
[13:53] <pedro_> seb128, are you reading my computer screen?
[13:53] <seb128> lol
[13:53] <pedro_> seb128, i'm in fact looking at some gedit crashes now hahah
[13:53]  * pedro_ looks around
[13:53]  * seb128 hugs pedro_
[13:53]  * pedro_ hugs seb128 back
[13:53] <pedro_> don't spy me! :-P
[13:53] <seb128> you got me, I'm spying on you
[13:54] <seb128> lol
[14:00] <pitti> hey pedro_, how are you?
[14:01] <pedro_> pitti, hello! I'm good, thanks. how's everything going for you?
[14:01] <pedro_> morning rickspencer3
[14:01] <rickspencer3> good morning pedro_
[14:01] <seb128> hey rickspencer3
[14:01] <pedro_> is raof looking at f-spot bugs?
[14:02] <pokyie> Hi All
[14:03] <seb128> pedro_, not sure but he got the milestoned one assigned now, why?
[14:03] <pokyie> Does anyone got this files in their machine
[14:03] <rickspencer3> hi seb128
[14:03] <pokyie> 1. /lib/firmware/iwlwifi-1000-1.ucode
[14:03] <seb128> pedro_, he knows the f-spot code a lib
[14:03] <pokyie> 2. /lib/firmware/iwlwifi-1000-2.ucode
[14:03] <pedro_> seb128, ok good, just to confirm that someone is actually looking at the issue ;-)
[14:03] <pedro_> thanks seb128
[14:12] <nigelb> pitti: thanks (g-p-m string bug)
[14:14] <baptistemm> Hi thre
[14:15] <baptistemm> I would be interested to have bug 545551 fixed for lucid to be able to have some hints to triage bluez and bluetooth related bugs
[14:18] <nigelb> baptistemm: I can do it :)
[14:19] <nigelb> what information do you want the hook to collect?
[14:19] <baptistemm> I think the hook is quite complete now
[14:20] <nigelb> ah :)
[14:20] <nigelb> baptistemm: the hook is supposed to be in your package I think
[14:20] <nigelb> i.e. the package which its supposed to report bugs on
[14:20] <pitti> baptistemm: hm, why is it an apport branch and not a bluez one?
[14:20] <arand> Is there a specific change in indicator-applet/application that got rid of the tooltips? I've been looking at changelogs with little luck...
[14:21] <Laney> did it ever have them?
[14:21] <Laney> i thought that was a design feature
[14:21] <pitti> baptistemm:
[14:21] <pitti> 19
[14:22] <pitti>     if command_available('rfkill'):
[14:22] <pitti> 20
[14:22] <pitti> command_available('rfkill list')
[14:22] <pitti> baptistemm: I think you mean command_output() here :) (same for getfacl)
[14:22] <baptistemm> doh
[14:23] <nigelb> pitti: what it into debdiff?
[14:23] <nigelb> s/what/want
[14:23] <pitti> baptistemm: and you don't need to call attach_conffiles for a package in its own package hook, that's already done automatically (in general-hooks/ubuntu.py)
[14:24] <arand> Laney: hmm, looking at it in karmic... you're right, maybe not.
[14:24] <pitti> nigelb: stuffing it into the bluez package is trivial; I mean, if you want to (with nice changelog and dh_install and all that), as a packaging exercise, then please go ahead of course :)
[14:24] <nigelb> pitti: packaging exercise was the intention :) will do :)
[14:25] <pitti> nigelb: ok, then I'll review it with that in mind (i. e. point out errors and let you fix them instead of doing that myself)
[14:25] <pitti> nigelb: thanks
[14:25] <pitti> nigelb: (but please coordinate with baptistemm to fix above two issues first)
[14:25] <nigelb> thanks for the chance ;)
[14:25] <nigelb> yes
[14:25] <baptistemm> pitti, fixed in my branch, thanks for the review
[14:26] <nigelb> baptistemm: fixed? shall I package?
[14:26] <pitti> baptistemm: otherwise this looks fine
[14:26] <pitti> baptistemm: for bonus, you could do the last ui.information a bit differently
[14:26] <baptistemm> nigelb, if you're interested there is bluez 4.62 waiting sponsoring as well :)
[14:26] <nigelb> baptistemm: I'm not a sponsor, yet
[14:28] <pitti> nigelb: ok, I subscribed to the bug now; so just attach it there, and I'll followup
[14:28] <nigelb> pitti: okay :)
[14:38] <nigelb> pitti: unrelated, but does apport automatically compress the logs?
[14:40] <baptistemm> nigelb, If you need help for packaging (even thought I'm quite a newbie) don't hesitate to ping me
[14:40] <nigelb> baptistemm: sure :)
[14:41] <baptistemm> pitti, you meant I should change the wording, or something else?
[14:41] <pitti> nigelb: binary ones yes, text ones not automatically
[14:42] <nigelb> pitti: aha, anyway to disable it?
[14:43] <pitti> baptistemm: oh, sorry; I meant to write a followup, and hten realized that it doesn't work yet
[14:43] <pitti> baptistemm: there's root_command_output(), but that doesn't work as a backgroud "monitor" thing, just synchronously
[14:43] <pitti> baptistemm: I was going to suggest starting the log, then asking the user to reproduce and click OK, and stoppin git
[14:43] <pitti> nigelb: disable compression?
[14:44] <nigelb> pitti: is it better left in? (debug log for cheese) if not, how to disable?
[14:44] <pitti> nigelb: text attachments aren't compressed
[14:45] <nigelb> oh, so make it .txt file, ah
[14:45] <pitti> nigelb: hang on, I think we are talking past each other
[14:45] <pitti> it doesn't care at all about the file name, it cares about contents
[14:45] <pitti> nigelb: what does currently happen, and what do you want to happen?
[14:46] <nigelb> in bug 545079, the debug log gets attaached as "HardwareInformation.log.gz" (naming mistake) is it because I gave the file name .log that it ended up as .gz?
[14:48] <pitti> nigelb: ah, because it has binary stuff in it
[14:48] <nigelb> pitti: ah, so leave it alone?
[14:49] <pitti> nigelb: which hook does that come from?
[14:49]  * pitti doesn't see/have a cheese hook
[14:49] <nigelb> pitti: I'm writing it
[14:49] <pitti> oh, I don't have cheese installed
[14:49] <pitti> seems we don't do that by default on desktop
[14:49] <baptistemm> pitti, is ther a way to call an apport hook from another package, for instance gnome-bluetooth triggering bluez apport hook
[14:49] <pitti> nigelb: so you should be able to force it, hang on
[14:49] <didrocks> pitti: no, it's only on the netbook nowdays
[14:49] <pitti> nigelb: what do you call right now for this particular field?
[14:49] <nigelb> CheeseDebug
[14:50] <pitti> nigelb: I mean, you are using r['HardwareInformation.log'] = command_output() or so?
[14:50] <nigelb> pitti: http://pastebin.com/AyWxUhgE
[14:50] <nigelb> pitti: report["CheeseDebug"] = apport.hookutils.command_output(['env', 'GST_DEBUG=*cheese*:3', 'cheese', '-v'])
[14:51] <pitti> baptistemm: not easily, no; sorry
[14:51] <pitti> nigelb: ah, hmm
[14:51] <pitti> nigelb: you can force the non-compression of files, but not of arbitrary string values
[14:51] <pitti> nigelb: so you could theoretically output it to a file and then do
[14:52] <baptistemm> pitti, can a user trigger the hook by itself to sent the information to a bug number ?
[14:52] <pitti> report['CheeseDebug'] = ('/tmp/mylog', False)
[14:52] <pitti> nigelb: the False forces it to not get encoded/compressed
[14:52] <pitti> baptistemm: yes, apport-collect -p bluez 12345
[14:52] <pitti> baptistemm: (or you reassign the bug to bluez, then apport-collect 12345 will do)
[14:52] <nigelb> pitti: so add a line below the previous line?
[14:53] <baptistemm> apport-collect -p bluez 12345 will do the trick
[14:53] <baptistemm> thanks
[14:53] <pitti> nigelb: well, you have to change command_output, too; you want to use subprocess.Popen to have it output to a temporary file
[14:53] <nigelb> pitti: ah, too much complication.  I'll leave it as gz ;)
[14:53] <pitti> nigelb: :)
[14:54]  * vish pokes nigelb to get it right ;p
[14:54] <nigelb> vish: its nonessential (my belief)
[14:55] <vish> nigelb: well , it makes life easier than having to download the log.. and you aernt going to be redoing this again ;)
[14:55] <nigelb> vish: okay okay
[14:55]  * nigelb adds to long list of things to do
[14:55]  * kenvandine is really amazed how fast lucid boots in kvm
[14:56]  * baptistemm is really amazed how fast lucid boots on ssd :)
[14:56] <nigelb> lucid doesn't boot in vbox for me at all (with testdrive)
[14:56]  * baptistemm is really amazed how fast lucid boots on kvm on ssd :)
[14:57] <kenvandine> hehe
[14:58] <vish> pitti: btw , Bug #542091 , for the cheese apport hook [in case you want to keep track]
[14:58] <vish> among the long list of other things ;p
[15:06] <nigelb> pitti: bluez is done! built successfully, attached debdiff
[16:05] <vish> seb128: hi , did you already pull from the packagers branch for the humanity update?
[16:05]  * vish just added a bug# to the changelog a few mins ago
[16:05] <seb128> vish, I'm uploading right now, I can ctrl-C if required
[16:06] <seb128> I've r46
[16:06] <seb128> which one did you add?
[16:06] <vish> seb128: right thats the one , no problems :)
[16:06] <seb128> ok good
[16:07] <seb128> uploaded
[16:07] <vish> seb128: thanks. :)
[16:07] <seb128> np
[16:20] <seb128> mvo, where can the s-c categories names be translated?
[16:23] <mvo> seb128: they should be in the s-c pot
[16:23] <mvo> seb128: unless they come from a ".directory" file in which case that is used
[16:24] <seb128> mvo, the .directories being used are the gnome-menus ones? if for accessories or graphics?
[16:25] <mvo> yes
[16:26] <seb128> mvo, seems buggy
[16:27] <seb128> mvo, those are not showed translated there
[16:27] <mvo> but they are translated?
[16:27] <seb128> the gnome-menus are correctly translated though
[16:27] <dpm> seb128, mvo, we've got bug 545102 about those, the categories' translations don't seem to be loaded from data/software-center.menu
[16:27] <seb128> well I guess so, those strings are the gnome-panel menus categories
[16:28] <seb128> dpm, thanks
[16:28] <seb128> mvo, does it work for you?
[16:29] <seb128> mvo, I get the same issue in german
[16:47] <chrisccoulson> pitti - do you think that bug 544139 should be added to the list of RC bugs?
[16:47] <chrisccoulson> (we should certainly try and fix it before lucid is released anyway)
[16:48] <pitti> chrisccoulson: yes, I think so
[16:48] <chrisccoulson> thanks, would you mind doing that for me? :-)
[16:48] <nigelb> pitti: will you be sponsoring bluez hook? or want me to subscribe sponsors?
[16:48] <pitti> nigelb: please do subscribe sponsors
[16:48] <pitti> I'll probably get around to it soon, but no need to block on me
[16:49] <nigelb> ok, thanks :)
[16:51] <mvo> hm, rhythmbox having VIRT 1,5Gb is not good, is it?
[16:56] <seb128> mvo, I will not reply to you as long you ignore me and my comment :p
[16:57] <seb128> mvo, but no, doesn't seem correct
[16:57] <mvo> seb128: sorry, I'm in a meeting
[16:57] <seb128> mvo, I was just joking ;-)
[16:57]  * seb128 hugs mvo
[16:57] <mvo> seb128: I can check buggy translations
[16:57] <seb128> mvo, did you use the music store?
[16:57] <seb128> mvo, you should check buggy code, read the bug dpm indicated
[16:58] <seb128> mvo, the translations are there
[16:58] <mvo> I think its because of the store
[16:58] <mvo> that is very impressive btw
[16:59] <seb128> ;-)
[17:01] <mvo> seb128, dpm: i18n issue should be fixed, thanks
[17:02] <mvo> dpm: please hit^Wping me if you notice similar issues, I'm not on top of my bug lists
[17:02] <seb128> mvo, you rock!
[17:02] <seb128> mvo, thanks
[17:02] <mvo> I wish
[17:02]  * mvo hugs seb128
[17:16] <seb128> pedro_, those gnome-appaerance-capplet crashes in pango are not pango bugs they are bug #274915
[17:18] <dpm> mvo, thanks!
[17:18] <pedro_> seb128, will review them back again, it's a bit tricky sometimes to determine where is actually crashing with those pango lines, but will have a look again and mark those as dup of that one
[17:18] <pedro_> seb128, thanks for ping me ;-)
[17:18] <seb128> pedro_, I'm cleaning those now
[17:18] <dpm> mvo, no need to hit you, I know everyone is busy, I prefer hugging
[17:18] <seb128> pedro_, just letting you know for next ones
[17:18]  * dpm hugs mvo
[17:23] <seb128> pedro_, there is quite some of those weird bugs on other softwares too though
[17:24] <seb128> pedro_, but most have been triaged or forwarded already by now
[17:25] <dpm> mvo, while you are at it, you might want to have a look at bug 545095 as well, it seems that the "Featured Applications" string is not marked for translation in s-c
[17:26] <ccheney> i think i have a real fix for the annoying OOo won't upgrade due to running OOo problem
[17:26] <pedro_> seb128, true, i've seen a few pango crashes for a couple of cycles already but those are already submitted upstream (most of them)
[17:26] <pedro_> IIRC behdad fixed a bunch during the first weeks on this cycle though
[17:26] <bryceh> asac, yes see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/GitUsage
[17:27] <seb128> pedro_, ok
[17:29] <vish> mvo: hi , reminding the list of SC icons > http://paste.ubuntu.com/400652/  would be great if you can update the .menu file :)
[17:35] <kenvandine> dpm, think there might be any more translation related requests for gwibber?
[17:38] <dpm> kenvandine, let me have a look at the existing i18n bugs, I think they had all committed fixes, IIRC...
[17:40] <kenvandine> dpm, thx, i am getting close to releasing with a bunch of bug fixes
[17:40] <kenvandine> would like to fix up any known i18n issues too
[17:43] <seb128> time for sport and dinner, bbl
[17:45] <dpm> kenvandine, there is only bug 538981 as pending IIRC. All the others I knew of were Fix Committed. I tagged them all with gwibber-i18n -> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/gwibber/+bugs?field.tag=gwibber-i18n
[17:45] <dpm> I haven't looked at that bug yet, I'm not sure how difficult is to make those strings translatable there
[17:48] <kenvandine> dpm, humm, yeah ideally we want to keep that list dynamic but that means it won't appear in gwibber.pot
[17:48] <kenvandine> dpm, have you seen any other application do that?
[17:48] <kenvandine> dpm, we could just wrap "name": aname.capitalize() with _()
[17:49] <kenvandine> but then it still won't make it into the template
[17:49] <kenvandine> dpm, can you manually add strings that need translating to the template?
[17:50] <dpm> kenvandine, you could use this perhaps -> http://docs.python.org/library/gettext.html#deferred-translations
[17:51] <dpm> the N_() trick
[17:52] <dpm> because otherwise adding strings to the template manually will be a pain for you, I think
[17:54] <kenvandine> dpm, it would be cool if we could add strings to the template in a way that they don't get over-written when you rebuild the template
[17:54] <kenvandine> or i guess just a list of possible values stuck in the code somewhere :)
[17:56] <dpm> kenvandine, would N_() not work for you in the same way?
[17:56] <kenvandine> dpm, either way... it would be a pain to maintain, if we ever change the default values, we would need to remember to update that list
[17:56] <kenvandine> dpm, yeah it would
[17:57] <kenvandine> just extra code, would think there would be a way to create a static list of possible strings to translate somehow
[17:57]  * kenvandine isn't an i18n guru
[17:57]  * dpm just fakes it
[17:59] <didrocks> this time enjoying an early evening :) see you tomorrow everyone!
[17:59] <kenvandine> enjoy didrocks!
[17:59] <kenvandine> dpm, if i added something like this to gwibber.pot
[17:59] <didrocks> thanks kenvandine, have a nice afternoon :)
[17:59] <dpm> yep, have a nice evening didrocks!
[18:00] <kenvandine> msgid "Messages"
[18:00] <didrocks> dpm: you too ;)
[18:00] <kenvandine> msgstr "
[18:00] <kenvandine> that would get removed next time we re-generate the template right?
[18:00] <dpm> yeah, it would get removed
[18:00] <kenvandine> ok
[18:00] <kenvandine> so in code is the lesser of the evils :)
[18:01]  * kenvandine takes a stab at it
[18:01] <dpm> yeah, otherwise you'd have to have a patch to modify the template at build time, I guess
[18:01] <kenvandine> i really want to make sure gwibber is localized :)
[18:01]  * kenvandine hugs the awesome translators
[18:02]  * dpm hugs kenvandine for the rocking work in getting i18n fixes done or merged!
[18:05] <dpm> kenvandine, the fixes you already did will get gwibber in top shape i18n-wise, but there might be more small issues coming up as translators keep testing the app. This is usually how things are detected: translators finish the translation, the language pack is released, and then translators detect untranslated or untranslatable strings
[18:05] <dpm> anyway, need to take a break, bbl
[18:06] <kenvandine> dpm, thx!
[18:18] <mvo> vish: thanks, I thought that mpt was working on that
[18:18] <mvo> vish: or am I misrembering
[18:18] <mpt> mvo, hi, good to see you online again
[18:18] <mpt> mvo, working on what?
[18:19] <mvo> mpt: the new icon integration with software-center.memu. I thought you mentioned that you want to ensure it will also be in the directory files (or rather that it gets names that match the directory files)
[18:20] <mpt> mvo, I don't know where to put the icons to achieve that myself. I thought kwwii was doing that
[18:21] <mvo> mpt: ok, I will talk to him
[18:21] <mpt> vish might be able to do the corresponding software-center.menu changes to look in the right places
[18:21] <vish> mvo: mpt: we considered all options and finally named them so http://paste.ubuntu.com/400652/
[18:21] <mpt> Unfortunately I'm not being given any time to do that
[18:22] <mvo> mpt: ok
[18:22] <vish> mpt: they just landed in Lucid and should be available
[18:23] <pitti> good night everyone!
[18:25] <vish> mvo: i went through the .menu file and right now all those categories use the "applications-other" icon , you can just re-name them and they should be good to go
[19:07] <cjohnston> kwwii: ping
[20:12] <seiflotfy> hi rickspencer3 :)
[20:13] <rickspencer3> seiflotfy, 45 minutes, rigt?
[20:13] <rickspencer3> I'm on a call now
[20:13] <seiflotfy> yes sir
[20:33] <kwwii> cjohnston: pong
[20:35] <cjohnston> hey kwwii, were you sent into about a visual problem for the scrollbars that I am having?
[21:01] <seiflotfy> hey guys
[21:01] <robtaylor> seiflotfy: rickspencer3 : so, shall we start?
[21:01] <rickspencer3> yuppers
[21:01] <robtaylor> seiflotfy: oh, hi :)
[21:01] <seiflotfy> hi robtaylor :)
[21:01] <rickspencer3> hi robtaylor and seiflotfy
[21:01] <robtaylor> seiflotfy: so, this is your meeting, what would you like to cover?
[21:02] <rickspencer3> all - seiflotfy, robtaylor and I are going to spam the channel for a bit
[21:02] <rickspencer3> sorry
[21:02] <rickspencer3> go ahead seiflotfy
[21:02] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: :)
[21:02] <seiflotfy> rickspencer3, robtaylor i would like to cover the topic of semantic technologieso n the desktop
[21:02] <seiflotfy> especially for lucid +1
[21:02] <seiflotfy> crap my keyboard is not responsive
[21:03] <seiflotfy> robtaylor is the CEO of codethnk one of the main companies behind tracker
[21:03] <seiflotfy> me and kamstrup are here representing Zeitgeist
[21:03] <rickspencer3> "semantic technologies"
[21:03] <robtaylor> seiflotfy: ah, thanks for the intro.
[21:03] <rickspencer3> this sounds rather, mmmm,
[21:03] <rickspencer3> how should I say, "grand"?
[21:04] <seiflotfy> well its a step lucid +1 will have to introduce
[21:04] <seiflotfy> ubuntu is going a nice path by redesinging stuff to be more user friendly and enrich the user experience
[21:04] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: so, I guess i should give you s shre overview of where I'm coming fron. COdethink's been doing a lot of teh core work for tracker, which is athe core data storage compoennt for Maemo6 and Meego
[21:04] <seiflotfy> yet those are going to be limited by the current state of techznologies
[21:05] <robtaylor> uh, sorry, high latency here
[21:06] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: and of corse, as part of this work, we're very interested in increasing the adoption of the technology
[21:06] <thorike> hey sei
[21:06] <thorike> hey seiflotfy , robtaylor , rickspencer3
[21:06] <rickspencer3> how does zeitgeist and tracker interact?
[21:06] <rickspencer3> hi thorike
[21:06] <rickspencer3> are they related at all?
[21:07] <RainCT_netbook> Hi all
[21:07] <seiflotfy> rickspencer3, yes and no
[21:07] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: at the moment, there's some relation at the UI level, GAJ combines data from tracker and zeitgeist to present the timeline view
[21:07]  * robtaylor has been pushing seiflotfy and kamstrup on this for a while ;)
[21:07] <seiflotfy> rickspencer3, while tracker knows about ur data zeitgeist only covers how ur data is used
[21:08] <seiflotfy> both can co-exist nicely
[21:08] <rickspencer3> ok
[21:08] <seiflotfy> as demoed in GAJ
[21:08] <rickspencer3> so what specifically do envision for Ubuntu 10.10?
[21:08] <robtaylor> seiflotfy: you want to go on that?
[21:08] <seiflotfy> robtaylor, sure thing
[21:09] <thorike> hi RainCT_netbook  :-)
[21:09]  * mclasen hopes that trackers stops ruining system responsiveness by then...
[21:09] <seiflotfy> rickspencer3, lets start with documents
[21:10] <seiflotfy> rickspencer3, currently there is no such thing as document organizer
[21:10] <seiflotfy> again we r fiddling through the hierichal filesystem
[21:10] <robtaylor> mclasen: have you installed a recent 0.7 tracker? Its crawing is good enough for mobile devices ;)
[21:11] <seiflotfy> tracker would allow us to browse our data using tags, authors, annotations etc
[21:11] <rickspencer3> robtaylor, to be honest, I have never used a tracker like feature that wasn't either:
[21:11] <rickspencer3> 1. weirdly consuming resources at inconvenient times
[21:11] <rickspencer3> 2. run manually, therefore alway too out of date to be useful
[21:11] <rickspencer3> has something changed there?
[21:11] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: absolutely
[21:11] <seiflotfy> yes alot
[21:12] <seiflotfy> tracker being considered the datastore for meego and maemo says it all i guess
[21:12] <seb128> robtaylor, the issue is mainly inotify no?
[21:12] <rickspencer3> so what has changed?
[21:12] <robtaylor> seb128: that's the main remaining issue.
[21:12] <seb128> robtaylor, or did you stop index the disk and rely on softwares to push infos?
[21:13] <seb128> indexing
[21:13] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: so, several things here
[21:13] <seb128> robtaylor, the io load handling under linux just sucks
[21:13] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: the archoitecture was redesigned so there is a cetral 'semantic'; store, then miners for various data sources
[21:14] <seb128> indexing will slow down your system a lot, I don't see how tracker can solve that with current linux and inotify limitations
[21:14] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: of which the filesystem is one
[21:14] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: we did a lot of fine grained interaction tweaking to keep the system resonsive
[21:15] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: you can test it out, the tracker-team ppa has the latest version of the 0,7 system in
[21:15] <rickspencer3> so that issue #1 is gone in your mind?
[21:15] <seb128> robtaylor, did you stop running the indexer?
[21:15] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: absolutely.
[21:15] <rickspencer3> ok
[21:15] <robtaylor> seb128: no, indexing is still needed to get a lot of information in, but it's secondary to the aim of tracker
[21:15] <RainCT_netbook> seb128: Last time I tried it on my netbook it indexed everything I have there in a couple hours and I didn't notice it at all
[21:16] <RainCT_netbook> it's definitelly better than 0.6
[21:16] <robtaylor> seb128: the ideal long-term plan would be that indexing isn't needed and all software uses it as the data oraganisation systenm. but that's a loong way off. if ever..
[21:17] <rickspencer3> robtaylor, so what value does it bring now?
[21:17] <rickspencer3> why would users want this?
[21:17] <seb128> well I fail to see how you solve the issue from tracker since the issue is mainly inotify and linux io load handing
[21:17] <robtaylor> seb128: as you pointed out, the main remaining issue is kernel-level. inotify sucks in some interesting ways
[21:17] <seb128> but I'm happy to be proved wrong
[21:17] <seb128> I will check on 0.7
[21:18] <robtaylor> seb128: basically, its all done by making sure the systemhas time to run and we keep low priority. could be made better with more kernel suport, but atm that's outside our development remot (watch this space thoiugh)
[21:18] <seiflotfy> rickspencer3, let alone ubuntu is missing a proper search tool
[21:18] <robtaylor> seiflotfy: one minute please
[21:19] <rickspencer3> robtaylor, go ahead
[21:19] <seb128> robtaylor, ok, please continue we can discuss that later
[21:19] <seb128> ie technical details are interesting but not important now ;-)
[21:19] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: so, what tracker brings at the architectureal level is linked data
[21:20] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: the model is bsaed on  relationships between items of data
[21:20] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: in practice, the means we can support such things as 'show me all emails related to this document'
[21:20]  * rickspencer3 nods
[21:21] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: or, combined with zeitgeist, ' show me the work i did last week with the ubuntuone team'
[21:21] <rickspencer3> ok
[21:21] <rickspencer3> I would like to discuss each a bit seperately first, if that is ok
[21:21] <rickspencer3> so I can understand a bit where you are coming from
[21:21] <thorike> robtaylor, what kind of relationships do you mean?
[21:21] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: absolutely
[21:22] <thorike> ok I pull back
[21:22] <rickspencer3> robtaylor, how does the UI reveal this functionality in your mind?
[21:22] <robtaylor> thorike: that's a big question ;)
[21:22] <thorike> robtaylor, just examples for now
[21:22] <thorike> I know it's a big question :-)
[21:23] <rickspencer3> robtaylor, are envisioning something like places -> Search for Files
[21:23] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: so, in Ui designs that are being actioned here, we have a core concept of people. so for example, you can tag face in photos in either facebook or on a device.
[21:24] <rickspencer3> but it works better because the daa is indexed
[21:24] <rickspencer3> ?
[21:24] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: and from your contacts vuiew, go to 'pictures of this person'
[21:24] <rickspencer3> hmmm
[21:24] <rickspencer3> that sounds rather esoteric
[21:24] <rickspencer3> does it help for when you are trying to get work done, or is the people concept only an example?
[21:25] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: i'm afraid ihave to be a bit inventive here, lots I can't directly talk about ;)
[21:25] <thorike> rickspencer3, well re zeitgeist and the people thing
[21:25] <thorike> what we do is log the interaction with the people
[21:25] <thorike> and then can tell the user
[21:26] <thorike> what did you do last week with dave
[21:26] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: so, in terms of getting work done, lets say you're working on a document or project. You now need to check up on some details you know you discuessed, but you can't remember when
[21:26] <rickspencer3> ok
[21:27] <thorike> emails, chat, synchronous tools
[21:27] <rickspencer3> robtaylor, this happens to me all the time
[21:27] <rickspencer3> like someone pasted me a link in IRC for a wiki page, and I can't find it
[21:27] <rickspencer3> would tracker help me with that in some wya?
[21:27] <seb128> :-)
[21:28] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: right, so we're on this border between searching and data foraging
[21:28] <rickspencer3> robtaylor, I'm just trying to understand your vision here, I'm not questioning the value of tracker
[21:29] <thorike> robtaylor, as far as I know tracker doesn't really support the "when ting"? am I wrong?
[21:29] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: your brain is saying, say, i know i got that link whenwe were talking about 'x'
[21:29]  * rickspencer3 nod
[21:29] <robtaylor> so you'd use teh global search for x, then from that search, get all the messages (email/im/irc) around whn 'x' was mentioned
[21:30] <rickspencer3> ok
[21:30] <rickspencer3> and then presumedly I'd see the link
[21:30] <robtaylor> thinking on my feet for the ui, you could have actions from the initial results (e.g. arrowing off from the result -> messages -> get a time based view)
[21:30] <rickspencer3> and not look like a total ass, as usual
[21:30] <robtaylor> that's the idea
[21:31] <kenvandine> seb128, can you sponsor libubuntuone again?
[21:31] <rickspencer3> robtaylor, so I take it there is no UI for desktops yet then?
[21:31] <kenvandine> seb128, fixed the missing dep Riddell reported
[21:31] <robtaylor> by the system knowing how items are realted, it helps model how a user thinks
[21:31] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: exactly
[21:31] <rickspencer3> ok
[21:31] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: there's the search-bar in tracker, and there's GAJ
[21:31] <seb128> kenvandine, ok
[21:31] <rickspencer3> ok
[21:31] <rickspencer3> so a bit of UI
[21:31] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: but nothing that has focused ui designs and tight-teams
[21:32] <rickspencer3> ok
[21:32] <rickspencer3> let us put UI aside then
[21:32] <seiflotfy> hi kamstrup
[21:32] <kenvandine> seb128, thx
[21:32] <rickspencer3> I think we can discuss the user value without designing specific UI
[21:32] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: some of Seth's ideas at the UI hackfest, and the nautilus discussions started going in this direction though
[21:32] <seb128> kenvandine, yw!
[21:32] <rickspencer3> so, in terms of Zeitgeist, how does that relate?
[21:32]  * rickspencer3 acks the nautilus designs from hack fest
[21:33] <seiflotfy> rickspencer3, not the same
[21:33] <seiflotfy> while tracker runs of statis metadata
[21:33] <seiflotfy> zeitgeist provides personal experience data
[21:33] <seiflotfy> as in "what do i do when reading x" based on a log
[21:33] <rickspencer3> so the proposal is to have desktops running two trackers all the time?
[21:34] <seiflotfy> uhm its a daemon
[21:34] <seiflotfy> and they are both leightweight
[21:34] <seiflotfy> i have them both here
[21:34] <RAOF> Good morning, ipv6 TheMuso :)
[21:35] <TheMuso> RAOF: heh good morning.
[21:35] <robtaylor> from my point of view, time-series data is very important for tracker. ITs the only way we'll be able to offer a lot of the functionailty we want
[21:35] <robtaylor> and its forndamentel for racking
[21:35] <TheMuso> RAOF: Totally unintentional on my part.
[21:35] <robtaylor> *ranking
[21:35] <rickspencer3> seiflotfy, ok, that's a "yes"
[21:36] <rickspencer3> seiflotfy, can you tell me why a user would want zeitgeist if they are already running tracker, or visa versa?
[21:36] <seiflotfy> kamstrup, wanna take over or should i?
[21:37] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: so, zg is a component that deals with store what actions the user perfomed, or had happen to them
[21:37] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: it can then analyse relationships between data by the time-locality of actions
[21:38] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: so, stricly speaking, zg isn't anindexer in any real sense
[21:38] <rickspencer3> robtaylor, that sounds exactly like Zeitgeist to me :/
[21:38] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: zg = zeitgiest
[21:38] <robtaylor> :)
[21:38] <rickspencer3> ok
[21:38] <rickspencer3> I can do that
[21:39] <rickspencer3> sorry to be dense, but I'm not seeing what zg brings extra, I know I am missing something
[21:39]  * robtaylor gets lazy ;)
[21:39] <seiflotfy> zeitgeist logs activity
[21:39] <RainCT_netbook> Yeah, Zeitgeist isn't an indexer, it's just a daemon providing logging functionallity over D-Bus (insert, get, find, relationships)
[21:40] <rickspencer3> ok, so it logs actions, rather than indexes data?
[21:40] <RAOF> But isn't tracker *also* meant to be (among other things) a store for such things?
[21:40] <RainCT_netbook> And the information gets inserted by applications themselves, plugins or the zeitgeist-datahub daemon (which currently just copies over stuff from GtkRecentManager)
[21:40] <seiflotfy> rickspencer3, zeitgeist provides contextual relationships while tracker does contentual :)
[21:40]  * didrocks would like zeitgeist and tracker being officially blessed by GNOME release managers first (as the discussion for tracker as a module in GNOME is currently stuck)
[21:40] <seiflotfy> didrocks, i am proposing this week
[21:40] <rickspencer3> ok, so I think I understand a bit better
[21:40] <didrocks> rickspencer3: don't blame yourself, this was a high point of discussion for a lot of people in GNOME ML "differences between tracker and zg is not obvious" :)
[21:41] <rickspencer3> so, robtaylor if I could do 1 think to help you, what would that be?
[21:42] <seiflotfy> tracker would be optimally the main storage for tags/annotations etc on the desktop
[21:42] <seiflotfy> allwoing cross desktop applications to re-use these tags
[21:42] <seiflotfy> zeitgeist on the other hand allows cross application exchange of activities
[21:43] <rickspencer3> seiflotfy, same question for you, what would you ask me to do?
[21:43] <seiflotfy> lucid + 1
[21:43] <seiflotfy> some tracks
[21:43] <seiflotfy> that would push the integration of both in 10.10
[21:43] <seiflotfy> do u want specific use cases ?
[21:43] <rickspencer3> seiflotfy, you want to ship zg and tracker by default in 10.10?
[21:44] <seiflotfy> that woudl be optimal
[21:44] <seiflotfy> its the only way we can catch up a bit with KDE
[21:44] <rickspencer3> ok
[21:44] <rickspencer3> so
[21:44] <rickspencer3> I get this question all the time
[21:44] <TheMuso> How would average users benefit? Sorry coming in late to this convo.
[21:44] <rickspencer3> "please help my project by delivering it in Lucid"
[21:44] <rickspencer3> TheMuso, hmm, covered that a bit, maybe scrollback?
[21:44] <TheMuso> rickspencer3: oh ok
[21:45] <seiflotfy> rickspencer3, ok
[21:45] <rickspencer3> seiflotfy, so this is not something that any one person decides
[21:45] <seiflotfy> i know
[21:45] <seiflotfy> but we can start with natuilus
[21:45] <rickspencer3> what you need to do is to demonstrate some awesome user value AND
[21:45]  * TheMuso gets the benefit now
[21:45] <rickspencer3> a track record of execution
[21:45] <seiflotfy> why not provide "most used documents per folder"
[21:46] <seiflotfy> zeitgeist covers this easily
[21:46] <rickspencer3> then you could potentially influence folks
[21:46] <seiflotfy> as seen in docky
[21:46] <rickspencer3> I would suggest targeting a zg-based feature in universe for 10.10 that you can get some excitement about
[21:46] <rickspencer3> think of the path that Gwibber took, for example
[21:46] <seiflotfy> yeah
[21:46] <rickspencer3> tracker seems different to me
[21:47] <rickspencer3> seems to be shipping on multiple platforms, and in some ways is tried and true code
[21:47] <rickspencer3> robtaylor, seiflotfy does that seem about right to both of you?
[21:48] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: well, the core of tracker is tried and true. There's a lot that still needs to be done around desktop UI designs, programmer-freindly api's that sort of thing
[21:48] <rickspencer3> mmmm
[21:49] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: and a big question we have at the moment is how todo really great ranking for global search
[21:49] <thorike> what' global search?
[21:49] <robtaylor> thorike: seen an android phone?
[21:49] <seiflotfy> rickspencer3, u can always get back at kamstrup for zeitgeist questions
[21:49] <thorike> yep
[21:49] <rickspencer3> hmmm
[21:49] <seiflotfy> he is a maintainer and lead architect
[21:49] <rickspencer3> so sounds like tracker features might need a bit of back time
[21:49] <rickspencer3> bake time, even
[21:50] <seiflotfy> rickspencer3, kamstrup is employed by canonical so u have a direct connection to him
[21:50]  * kamstrup solutes rickspencer3
[21:51] <rickspencer3> seiflotfy, robtaylor I think we need some UI concepts that some developers are committed to deliver ...
[21:51] <rickspencer3> and bring this conversation to UDS
[21:51] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: exactly
[21:51] <seiflotfy> rickspencer3, we have GAJ
[21:51] <seiflotfy> :)
[21:51] <seiflotfy> it uses both
[21:51] <seiflotfy> :)
[21:51] <rickspencer3> seiflotfy, is it in universe?
[21:51] <seiflotfy> lucid?
[21:51] <thorike> and with the next release we'll add "related items"
[21:51] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: do you know if the Canonical UX team be there?
[21:51] <rickspencer3> robtaylor, yes, they will be
[21:51] <seiflotfy> rickspencer3, i think it is
[21:52] <rickspencer3> seiflotfy, what is the package name?
[21:52] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: i think the main thing for me is to make sure 10.10 doesn't ship with the old tracker in main again ;)
[21:52] <chrisccoulson> robtaylor - it won't
[21:52] <rickspencer3> robtaylor, that can for sure be arranged easily
[21:52] <chrisccoulson> i'm already on the case with that ;)
[21:52] <robtaylor> chrisccoulson: awesome :D
[21:52] <chrisccoulson> the 0.7 packaging is in good shape already
[21:52] <chrisccoulson> i will upload it as soon as lucid + 1 opens
[21:52] <seiflotfy> gnome-activity-journal
[21:52] <seiflotfy> rickspencer3, ^
[21:53] <seiflotfy> we are relasing again in a week or 2
[21:53] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: and some simple low-hanging fruid i'd liek to see is getting some tracker-based vfolders in nautilus by default. e.g. 'All Videos' 'All Music'
[21:53] <rickspencer3> robtaylor, interesting
[21:53] <chrisccoulson> that would be awesome
[21:53] <seb128> hum
[21:53] <rickspencer3> this seems something that can be installed as a seperate package
[21:54] <seb128> I'm wondering if we can demote tracker in lucid
[21:54] <rickspencer3> from universe
[21:54] <rickspencer3> and bake
[21:54] <seb128> since nautilus is using it at runtime now
[21:54] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: there's a little that needs to be done in nautilus, to support direct tracker querying in it's vfolder query language
[21:54] <seb128> no offense to the tracker team but 0.6 is outdated anyway
[21:54] <seb128> chrisccoulson, do you know?
[21:54] <robtaylor> i've chatted over thatwith alexl, and he's up for is, as the tracker backing is pretty much the only supported vfolder backend for the next nautilus release
[21:55] <robtaylor> seb128: yeah, i really want to see 0.6 dissapear for good
[21:55] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - i don't mind. i was going to upload the latest 0.6 point release at soem point, but i never got round to it
[21:55] <chrisccoulson> i haven't used 0.6 for ages ;)
[21:55] <seb128> chrisccoulson, I don't think we should was efforts on this version
[21:55] <seb128> let's do better in lucid+1
[21:55] <chrisccoulson> yeah, lucid+1 will get 0.7/0.8
[21:55] <seb128> tracker 0.6 in lucid is of little anyway for users
[21:56] <rickspencer3> seb128, are you suggesting demote tracker to universe for lucid, and then do tracker .7 in main when 10.10 opens?
[21:56] <robtaylor> seb128: its pretty damn aweful. I'm still pushing for the 0.8 stable series to get a Tracker *2* name. We need some signalling that is really is a completely different beast with different aims
[21:56] <seb128> rickspencer3, yes
[21:56] <seb128> rickspencer3, well not especially in main if nothing use it
[21:56] <seb128> rickspencer3, having it in universe means it's easier for other contributors to work on it too
[21:56] <rickspencer3> if we demote it to universe, could we not replace it with .7 in lucid?
[21:56] <rickspencer3> or is that too aggressive?
[21:57] <seb128> chrisccoulson has been looking at it
[21:57] <seb128> but 0.7 had stopper issues
[21:57] <chrisccoulson> rickspencer3, AFAIK, the current 0.7 branch does not handle ontology changes well, which would mean users having to manually remove their index after upgrading
[21:57] <seb128> I'm not sure we should spend efforts on that now
[21:57] <seb128> nothing in going to use it in lucid anyway
[21:57] <chrisccoulson> which was the blocker issue for not uploading 0.7
[21:57] <chrisccoulson> robtaylor can probably explain better though ;)
[21:58] <rickspencer3> ok
[21:58] <rickspencer3> never mind
[21:58] <rickspencer3> it was just a suggestion, it's not my call anyway
[21:58] <robtaylor> btw, if anyone needs a bit of an overview of the linked data structure we use at the ce core of tracker, I have a nice slide cast on my blog (http://blog.floopily.org/2010/03/01/rdf-beginners-guide-and-competition/)
[21:58] <rickspencer3> robtaylor, I'll try to find the link later
[21:58] <rickspencer3> j/k
[21:58] <chrisccoulson> rickspencer3, i sort-of maintain 0.7 in a PPA though, with mbiebl (the debian maintainer)
[21:58] <rickspencer3> ok
[21:59] <chrisccoulson> rickspencer3, https://edge.launchpad.net/~tracker-team/+archive/tracker-unstable has 0.7 packages
[21:59] <rickspencer3> ok
[21:59] <rickspencer3> thanks
[21:59] <chrisccoulson> (which i need to update with last weeks release at some point)
[21:59] <robtaylor> chrisccoulson: *nod*. I'm not sure of the status on that either. It's at least scheduled to be fixed by the 0.8 series
[21:59] <seiflotfy> rickspencer3, i would like to add http://seilo.geekyogre.com/uploads/2010/03/image7.png
[21:59] <rickspencer3> robtaylor, seiflotfy do we need to decide anything now?
[21:59]  * didrocks adds the link to "should be read when slackering tomorrow"
[21:59] <seiflotfy> coudl we make this a track for lucid
[21:59] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: no, not at all :)
[21:59] <seiflotfy> ?
[21:59] <didrocks> oupss, my boss is there :)
[21:59] <rickspencer3> hehe
[22:00] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: i just want to get some shared bain cells going on the possibilities ;)
[22:00] <seiflotfy> i mean lucid + 1
[22:00] <robtaylor> *brain
[22:00] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: and make sure we have the right basis in place going forward
[22:01] <robtaylor> someone might need to explain to me what a 'track' is ;)
[22:02] <seiflotfy> rickspencer3, my problme with the current desktop is that it is too static
[22:02] <seiflotfy> we should add a track or 2 in lucid+1
[22:03] <seiflotfy> to discuss enriching new possibilities of experience
[22:03] <seiflotfy> adaptive and personal experience
[22:04] <seiflotfy> by static i mean everything on the desktop is based on the hierarchal filesystem
[22:05] <rickspencer3> seiflotfy, my point to you is that you are empowered to realize your vision for the desktop
[22:06] <rickspencer3> but you'll have to prove it with your code and prove it to the users
[22:06] <seiflotfy> i get what u mean
[22:06] <chrisccoulson> i think the idea of virtual folders in nautilus is awesome. i have music scattered all over my desktop (some private, and some shared with other users), and it would be cool to have all that in a single virtual folder
[22:07] <TheMuso> Virtual folder for me would be pointless, I just organise things into folder proper.
[22:07] <TheMuso> folders
[22:07] <thorike> chrisccoulson, and with zeitgeist you would then be able to ask: what did I listen to yesterday, while I was writing on this paper
[22:08] <thorike> and in general, zg will relate the music files according to how u use them
[22:08] <chrisccoulson> TheMuso - but sometimes you have to have things in different folders, but don't want to care about that when you're accessing them
[22:08] <thorike> so, our aim is to surprise the user with the "related items" thing, but in a positive way
[22:08] <TheMuso> chrisccoulson: I can see how this is true for some.
[22:08] <thorike> as in "ah yeah  that's true, these songs I like to hear together"
[22:08] <robtaylor> chrisccoulson: how's your c? ;) I could do with a volunteer for that stuff :)
[22:09] <seb128> robtaylor, did alex agree on virtual folders in nautilus?
[22:09] <chrisccoulson> robtaylor, i like C ;)
[22:09] <thorike> we are also thinking of expanding this to include recommender functionality
[22:09] <robtaylor> seb128: its functionailty that's already there
[22:09] <seb128> he has usually been against virtual locations to display that sort of things
[22:09] <seb128> hum k
[22:09] <seb128> I though the vision was that nautilus is a file manager
[22:10] <thorike> rickspencer3, and in general, as compared to general semantic technologies such as tracker
[22:10] <robtaylor> seb128: what he's agains it virtual file systems
[22:10] <seb128> that ie music management should be done in ie rhythmbox
[22:10] <robtaylor> *against is
[22:10] <seb128> not in nautilus
[22:10] <thorike> which try to express similarity and semantics of contents independent of users
[22:10] <thorike> zg personalizes this semantics
[22:10] <robtaylor> seb128: absolutely, I agree :)
[22:11] <rickspencer3> guys, tbh, when I hear a term like "semantic technologies" I think of solutions looking for problems
[22:11] <seb128> I think I miss the nuance there
[22:11] <didrocks> so do I :)
[22:11] <thorike> in that it will be capable of reflecting personal meaning of computer-represented objects, as emerging and developing from them being involved in a user’s activities and experiences.
[22:11] <rickspencer3> I think it might be easier to explain zg if you could sum it up in terms that put user valuke forward
[22:11] <robtaylor> seb128: possibly. have you got a unstable nautilus build to hand?
[22:11] <thorike> rickspencer3, oki :-)
[22:12] <thorike> when using zeitgeist you don't need to remember where / in what folder or alike you have put an item
[22:12] <robtaylor> seb128: if you install the tracker0.7 package from the tracker-team ppa, you should be able to do a search in nautilus and save it as a vfolder
[22:12] <thorike> it's just there, for example, in gaj
[22:12] <chrisccoulson> robtaylor - oh, i've not tried that yet
[22:12] <thorike> you can recognize the name instead of recalling it
[22:12] <thorike> which is especially good for sporadic users
[22:13] <TheMuso> I don't like that, that doesn't promote keeping organised files. :)
[22:13] <didrocks> I think real and precise test cases are the best way to show the added value.
[22:13] <seb128> robtaylor, not right now but I will try later for sure
[22:13] <thorike> TheMuso, there is aplace for keeping files organized
[22:13] <thorike> but it is known that there are filers and pilers alike
[22:13] <thorike> and none is better or worse
[22:13] <robtaylor> chrisccoulson: yeah. unfortunatly the ui doesn't support making an 'all video' search properly, but you can do a search for  'foobar', type Video, and hand edit the .vfolder file
[22:13] <robtaylor> seb128: awesome :)
[22:13] <thorike> and in particular for the "short term memory of computer"
[22:13] <thorike> 1 or two days
[22:13] <thorike> max
[22:13] <chrisccoulson> robtaylor, i just tried searching in nautilus, and it crashes ;)
[22:14] <chrisccoulson> heh
[22:14] <robtaylor> chrisccoulson: doh !
[22:14] <thorike> zeitgeist will make sure, you'll get back to your data
[22:14] <thorike> without overhead of organizing them
[22:14] <thorike> rickspencer3, does that make more sense to you like that?
[22:14] <chrisccoulson> i should probably modify the tracker packages actually to build the gdb symbols too
[22:14] <chrisccoulson> or rather package the symbols
[22:15] <robtaylor> chrisccoulson: well, so, when i'm back in GMT we should meet up and make a plan for stabilising it and growing teh query format
[22:15] <robtaylor> chrisccoulson: is that with nautilus git head?
[22:15] <thorike> rickspencer3, so another use case would be empowering the open-file dialogue with zg
[22:16] <chrisccoulson> robtaylor, this is with 2.29.92.1, so i'm not sure how far that is from git now
[22:16] <thorike> where you'll have the "most-used with this app" items
[22:16] <thorike> or recently used
[22:16] <thorike> where zg is different from recently used as it captures, keeps, and exploits the old events too
[22:16] <thorike> so it doesn't loose interaction memory
[22:17] <thorike> which is one of the design flaws with "recent documents"
[22:17] <robtaylor> chrisccoulson: thats pretty much git head, i think
[22:17] <chrisccoulson> yeah, i just looked at the recent commits, and there doesn't seem to be much interesting there
[22:18] <seb128> chrisccoulson, the most recent one could be
[22:18] <thorike> open-file dialogue or the zeitbutton could also make use of related-items fct. of zg
[22:18] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - http://git.gnome.org/browse/nautilus/commit/?id=a92a7bfcb2c7bb9f171724bc97b1c163f52c0fd7 ?
[22:18] <robtaylor> thorike: i think we need projects and code for these ideas
[22:18] <seb128> chrisccoulson, yes
[22:18] <thorike> so what is most-related by usage (using together with the doc. displayed in the window) with the document
[22:18] <seb128> chrisccoulson, not really in fact
[22:19] <thorike> robtaylor, it's coming
[22:19] <robtaylor> chrisccoulson: you could be hitting some issue in the magic dynamic SO loading
[22:19] <seb128> chrisccoulson, I though they fixed a tracker crash but it was probably before tarball
[22:19] <thorike> the related-items fct. will be out with the next release
[22:19] <thorike> and we are already starting to build on it
[22:19] <robtaylor> chrisccoulson: though it just worked for me, git head 1ab37214
[22:20] <thorike> which will allow to capture something like working sets
[22:20] <RainCT> good night guys
[22:20] <thorike> which is "documents you used together working on a task"
[22:20] <thorike> which often users dont keep tidy and clean within folders
[22:21] <chrisccoulson> i should probably update the tracker version in the PPA really
[22:21] <chrisccoulson> but that's a job for tomorrow now
[22:21] <chrisccoulson> i may as well wait for tomorrows tarball ;)
[22:21] <kklimonda> sorry to ask but how does it track what task is user currently working on?
[22:21] <thorike> so, we relieve users from the burden to always right away copy stuff together when they finish working on something, for example, because they are interrupted by their boss and have to switch to sth else
[22:21] <seb128> chrisccoulson, did you ping asac about nm-applet btw?
[22:22] <seb128> asac, asac_: ^
[22:22] <thorike> and afaik, this working-set notion is not supported by anything currently
[22:22] <seb128> asac, asac_: can we get those nm-applet changes in lucid now?
[22:22] <thorike> but often users work with several items on a task
[22:22] <thorike> and task switching is known to be a heavy burden mental-load wise
[22:23] <thorike> it's already difficult enough to "think-into" the task again
[22:23] <thorike> the desktop should relieve users from searching the relevant items again, if they have already been used
[22:24] <thorike> failure of re-finding is especially annoying people, because they know it's there
[22:24] <thorike> but they cant get a hold of the stuff again
[22:25] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - we mentioned it in the meeting on tuesday, but i just pinged him again
[22:25] <chrisccoulson> it might have got lost during the team meeting ;)
[22:26] <thorike> kklimonda, it does by analysing the usage and re-usage patterns
[22:26] <thorike> and you are right there is not a UI yet
[22:26] <thorike> but that will soon come
[22:26] <seiflotfy> kklimonda, we implemented A Priori and we are working on also implementing Winepi and Minepi
[22:26] <seiflotfy> two other algorithms
[22:27] <thorike> they are basically associating the events on the documents
[22:27] <thorike> and thereby also relating the documents
[22:27] <kklimonda> does it mean all applications have to be aware of tracker/zg to make use of it?
[22:27] <thorike> and one UI is already in trunc of zg
[22:27] <kklimonda> well, to make use of the task tracking
[22:28] <seiflotfy> well this part is coverd by zg
[22:28] <seiflotfy> and yes they can be aware of it using dbus
[22:28] <kklimonda> I'd love to see a rhythmbox and banshee ported to tracker for example - right now I've all my music rated and I can't neither change application or move it on the disk without loosing this data. So I love the idea but without putting a lot of resources into this we won't get a good results.
[22:29] <thorike> well for rhythmbox for example there is or soon will be a zg data provider
[22:29] <robtaylor> kklimonda: +1 from me :)
[22:30] <seiflotfy> thekorn, correction its there :)
[22:30] <seiflotfy> thorike, kklimonda rhytmbox dataprovider exists now
[22:30] <RAOF> The Banshee dev's concern about that is whether tracker is fast enough.
[22:30] <robtaylor> RAOF: *nod*
[22:31] <thorike> kklimonda, yep your point is a good example of making use of tracker
[22:31] <thorike> zeitgeist, after listening to you for a while and checking which songs you skipt etc
[22:31] <robtaylor> RAOF: its an intersting one that. I see quite often people saying 'we put a lot of work into making our database fast, tracker couldn't possibly be fast enough'
[22:31] <RAOF> Because quite a large set of Banshee features involves querying their sqlite database.
[22:32] <thorike> would then also be able to design playlists according to this data and not only according to static song properties
[22:32] <robtaylor> RAOF: we've got a speed test suite now, so i think that's a task for me to show them the money ;)
[22:32] <RAOF> robtaylor: I don't know if tracker *is* fast enough; I don't think there's any architectural reason why it couldn't be.
[22:33] <robtaylor> RAOF: tbh, I don't really know either. I'm looking forward to running the test suite when i get a chance ;)
[22:33] <robtaylor> RAOF: its very much about the use cases
[22:34] <RAOF> It would be quite easy to sync banshee's data with tracker, but it'd be quite a lot of work to actually replace the DB backend with tracker.
[22:34] <thorike> and these playlist recommendations would also change over time
[22:34] <robtaylor> RAOF: yep. I was just about to say, the real part of the story that's missing with tracker rigt now, is great developer apis for gnome
[22:35] <thorike> what you liked a year ago is different from now sometimes
[22:35] <robtaylor> thorike: absolutely
[22:35] <thorike> but zg also allows to scope back to "last year" and tell you
[22:35] <thorike> same for documents and mails, websites
[22:35] <thorike> you were using on a project
[22:36] <thorike> they are meaningful mostly while the project is running
[22:36] <thorike> and then querying what was related to them while the project was running is important
[22:36] <thorike> and is currently not supported
[22:36] <thorike> e.g., you asking a year later
[22:37] <kklimonda> thorike: how easy would it be to back all this data up? most users don't have a full disk backup running and zg sounds like something that shines only if it has enough data from long period.
[22:37] <thorike> I have this document at hand, which I know I generated during that project
[22:37] <thorike> what was related to it then
[22:37] <thorike> and not with the new "noise" that has come since the project
[22:37] <thorike> kklimonda, it's one sqllite DB
[22:38] <thorike> so it's an easy backup
[22:38] <thorike> or what do you mean?
[22:38] <thorike> to bootstrap also "old data" can be imported / simulated wherever possible
[22:38] <thorike> e.g., chat logs are easy
[22:38] <thorike> kklimonda, and you're right,
[22:38] <thorike> zg shines most, when there is a long history
[22:39] <thorike> and with our design, it's not a problem to have years of data in there
[22:39] <thorike> and query it efficiently
[22:39] <didrocks> the concept is interesting but I still really think that for UDS, you should bring some existing and precise use cases/scenarios working (or at least some proof of concept of them) to make the added value more visual
[22:39] <thorike> didrocks, that's true
[22:39] <thorike> we'll try
[22:40] <kklimonda> thorike: well, is it possible to for example sync the database using desktopcouch (or another service) and then, after the format, sync it back and get back on the track - how would it handle missing files or files that are missing right now but are going to be restored from backup in a moment.. same for tracker - does it remove "file" from the database completely or can it be restored if the
[22:40] <kklimonda> file with the same hash shows up eventually.
[22:40] <didrocks> kklimonda: I was thinking that at first, but maybe my workflow on my laptop isn't the same than the one on my netbook :)
[22:41] <kklimonda> (that's how I clean my desktop for example - I move $HOME to ../BACKUP and then move back only important files like music or photos or some of the configuration I actually care about
[22:41] <thorike> kklimonda, well couchdb is rather slow compared to our DB
[22:42] <thorike> but synching between several of your personal DBs on devices is on our list
[22:42] <thorike> it's important considering also mobile phones
[22:42] <thorike> re missing files: they are shown and considered
[22:42] <thorike> shown in grey so you realize they are not there
[22:43] <robtaylor> ok guys.I'm afraid I need to head to sleep now!
[22:43] <rickspencer3> bye robtaylor
[22:43] <rickspencer3> thanks for your time!
[22:43] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: seiflotfy: thanks for this. Its great to get the discussion flowing :)
[22:43] <thorike> bye robtaylor
[22:43] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: thanks for your time too
[22:43] <robtaylor> thorike: thanks, see you on #zeitgiest ;)
[22:43] <thorike> yep :-)
[22:44] <thorike> kklimonda, and you have both options
[22:44] <thorike> to delete files completely from database or just not showing them, aka blacklisting
[22:45] <thorike> and yes, they can be restored if the file with the same hash shows up again
[22:45] <thorike> zg DB keeps the activity on the items, not the items itself
[22:45] <thorike> and the activity is still meaningful to oneself, even if the items are temporarily not available
[22:45] <kklimonda> thorike: only name? no hash? for example if I save an attachment from email, then remove it and then get the same attachment from some site under the different name it wont show up?
[22:45] <robtaylor> rickspencer3: oh, i forgot to say, take a look at this TED talk for some interesting MS stuff on linked data - http://www.ted.com/talks/gary_flake_is_pivot_a_turning_point_for_web_exploration.html
[22:45]  * robtaylor really goes to sleep now ;)
[22:46] <thorike> i.e. for remembering "what have I done two weeks ago"
[22:46] <kklimonda> ok, that feature sounds like O_PONIES ;)
[22:46] <thorike> currently people use their calendar, mailtool, filesystem and whatsoever for that (fragmented user experience)
[22:46] <thorike> in zg, it's all there
[22:46] <rickspencer3> ah gary flake
[22:46] <rickspencer3> the one, the only, the fired
[22:46] <thorike> kklimonda, same hash, it would show up
[22:47] <kklimonda> thorike: oh? great
[22:47] <thorike> but you're touching an important issue
[22:47] <thorike> what is "the same file"
[22:48] <thorike> sooner or later, we'll need some layer that will clarify this
[22:48] <thorike> beyond what we have now
[22:48] <thorike> documents develop and people might want to have this shown
[22:48] <kklimonda> right - for example user can send a document to a friend and get it back - the content is different, the name can be different and so hash but the document is probably the same..
[22:48] <kklimonda> mhm
[22:49] <thorike> as in two weeks ago, a paper I was writing had some content I had later deleted
[22:49] <thorike> yep, we'll tackle that
[22:49] <thorike> but have not a real working solution yet
[22:49]  * didrocks waves goodbye, it's late!
[22:50]  * thorike waving back :-)
[22:50] <kklimonda> g'night didrocks
[22:50] <didrocks> kklimonda: thanks, you too ;) bye thorike!
[22:50] <thorike> kklimonda, so we need to work on "document identity"
[22:50] <thorike> needs versioning
[22:51] <thorike> maybe
[22:51] <thorike> can be found out sometimes by similarity
[22:51] <thorike> content wise
[22:51] <thorike> but sometimes also needs the trace
[22:52] <thorike> as in copied from here to there
[22:52] <thorike> then sent
[22:52] <thorike> and back, again working on it
[22:52] <thorike> the usual stuff you do, when working with someone on a paper or presentation
[22:52] <kklimonda> right.. and the remote system may not even know about zg and all this stuff.
[22:52] <thorike> sadly yes
[22:53] <thorike> in case the remote system is your system you can control
[22:53] <thorike> but in case not it's also by design, because, you shouldn know about others file use
[22:53] <thorike> ...
[22:53] <thorike> but we have teamgeist for that
[22:53] <thorike> where the sharing is tracked too
[22:53] <thorike> that will probably a gsoc project
[22:54] <thorike> having a data provider for telepathy
[22:54] <thorike> which is the protocol we use for teamgeist
[22:54] <thorike> ... that's for trusted communities
[22:54] <thorike> like google wave, but simpler :-)
[22:55] <thorike> you want to share s.th. with someone else, e.g. you are working on a project with him/her
[22:55] <thorike> you use the file and if you want your collaborator/peer
[22:55] <thorike> will a) be aware immediately that you do
[22:55] <thorike> and b) also have access to the file (exactly your version, which has been sent over a tube)
[22:56] <thorike> it's implemented, but the group stuff is tricky
[22:56] <thorike> because you don't want to harm privacy of others
[22:56] <thorike> it needs to be easy, predictable, expectancy conform and all that
[22:56] <thorike> and  mutually
[22:56] <kklimonda> mhm
[22:57] <thorike> ?
[22:57] <kklimonda> right, I see :)
[22:57] <thorike> I think, it's a UI issue
[22:57] <thorike> it's amazingly cool to work with it
[22:58] <thorike> but users might be fearing loosing control
[22:58] <thorike> that has to be handled on ui level
[22:58] <thorike> simple customizing, easy to understand
[22:58] <kklimonda> thorike: btw, is zg something that both gnome and kde developers are interested in?
[22:59] <thorike> gnome: definite yes, kde: interests many developers, but the nepomuk people claim that we should be using their ontology for events too
[22:59] <kklimonda> thorike: right - the whole concept is great but a bit overwhelming especially when you add the sharing into that :)
[22:59] <thorike> which doesnt realy work
[23:00] <kklimonda> oh right, they have nepomuk :/
[23:00] <thorike> nepomuk is nice for documents, static information
[23:00] <thorike> although introducing quite some overhead
[23:00] <thorike> and there is not really an event ontology as we designed in the last two months
[23:01] <thorike> which is simple and thin, and does the job greatly
[23:01] <thorike> as soon as we have the feeling it's stable, we'll talk back to sebastian
[23:02] <thorike> there is ongoing connection and discussion, although not daily :-)
[23:02] <thorike> kklimonda, how do you mean overwhelming?
[23:03] <thorike> good or bad? (polarizing ;-) )
[23:04] <thorike> kklimonda, and if you want to put the concept idea in one line
[23:04] <thorike> it's "everybody knows, what I do, but I don't" :-)
[23:04] <thorike> google, amazon, travel agencies, ...
[23:04] <thorike> they all log your behavior
[23:05] <thorike> and analyse it to their benefits
[23:05] <kklimonda> thorike: both zg and tracker sound like something great if they get enough tracktion but both present a huge change to the way users use their computers.
[23:05] <thorike> there is no similar means for that on the desktop yet
[23:05] <kklimonda> thorike: maybe I feel like that because it's all fragmented and when the missing UI bigs emerge it will look clearer
[23:06] <kklimonda> s/bigs/bits
[23:06] <thorike> yep, well using location information was also pretty much a change and people adapted quickly
[23:06] <thorike> we do the same, but with the time-dimension
[23:06] <kklimonda> thorike: it sounds much more exciting that gnome-shell in my opinion :)
[23:06] <thorike> kklimonda, wow thanks for the flowers
[23:06] <thorike> :-)
[23:07] <thorike> kklimonda, and I can see the fragmented feeling
[23:07] <thorike> did you use gnome activity journal, yet?
[23:07] <thorike> and the zg docky, which shows most or recently used
[23:07] <thorike> that gives you a preview feeling I think
[23:08] <thorike> especially with zeitgeist's next release, which will show related items
[23:08] <thorike> needs integration to gaj (gnome activ. journal) though
[23:08] <thorike> we're working on it
[23:09] <thorike> if we get people surprised like "oh yeah cool, that's true this file which I put in another folder is really related to the doc at hand"
[23:09] <thorike> that will work, if we get this "aha effect" (as we say in german) :-)
[23:09] <thorike> like heureka
[23:10] <kklimonda> thorike: my usage patterns sucks and I do way too much things using terminal so it doesn't work for me :/
[23:11] <thorike> well, some of us do too
[23:11] <thorike> so eventually we'll need to tackle that
[23:11] <thorike> but that will need kernel support
[23:11] <thorike> first, we need to proove it useful
[23:11] <thorike> then come the diamonds :-)
[23:12] <thorike> kklimonda, you usage pattern sucks? .. you mean you do everything at once? ... then you'd be our hard core test case for segmenting with the association algorithms .. apriori, etc
[23:14] <kklimonda> thorike: yeah - when I don't do anything work-related I just jump from one topic to another :)
[23:14] <kklimonda> it's a terrible habit I'm trying to overcome though
[23:16] <thorike> well, why .. you'd be the ideal test case ... and why change if it works for you?
[23:16] <thorike> :-)
[23:17] <thorike> the computer should change to support that behavior better
[23:17] <thorike> it's like with filers and pilers
[23:17] <thorike> it's reproduced in studies again and again .. people are different
[23:17] <thorike> and computers should cope with it
[23:21] <thorike> and the full power of zg will even better show on devices more mobile than netbooks
[23:21] <thorike> "what did I do three days ago at this bus stop (gps position)?"
[23:21] <thorike> that's easy for zeitgeist
[23:21] <thorike> and is not possible without events
[23:22] <thorike> but even now we have enough usefullness
[23:22] <thorike> my parents use gnome activity journal on their desktops
[23:22] <thorike> as they have trouble with folders and remembering file names
[23:22] <thorike> gaj does the job for them
[23:22] <thorike> if they want to re-find what they did
[23:22] <thorike> ... well it's getting late
[23:23] <kklimonda> ok, I guess I'm at my limit of processing any informations :)
[23:23] <thorike> was nice talking to you, kklimonda, rickspencer3
[23:23]  * thorike waves good by
[23:23] <thorike> kklimonda, me too :-)
[23:23] <thorike> lets take it up at some other time
[23:23] <thorike> meet you at #zeitgeist or #gnome-zeitgeist
[23:24] <kklimonda> thorike: g'night :)
[23:24] <thorike> kklimonda, you too :-)