[02:26] <humphreybc> hi team
[02:29] <Red_HamsterX> Hi.
[02:29] <humphreybc> :)
[02:30]  * humphreybc is listening to some crazy russian music from the Jamendo music store
[02:35] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: !
[02:35] <humphreybc> you're back!
[02:38] <IlyaHaykinson> yeah
[02:38] <daker> hi IlyaHaykinson
[02:38] <IlyaHaykinson> i was reading all the emails, pretty much, but been tough to contribute.
[02:38] <IlyaHaykinson> this will unfortunately continue on and off, but i'll help where i can...
[02:38]  * IlyaHaykinson waves to daker
[02:39] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: that's okay
[02:39] <humphreybc> we've been pretty busy
[02:39] <humphreybc> have you seen the branch recently?
[02:39] <IlyaHaykinson> i know.
[02:39] <humphreybc> hey daker!
[02:39] <IlyaHaykinson> yeah, i built and submitted a few copyedits
[02:39] <humphreybc> awesome
[02:39] <IlyaHaykinson> cleaned up chapter 4 (removed empty sections)
[02:39] <humphreybc> we thought you'd fallen off a cliff or something
[02:40] <humphreybc> I've been meaning to go through chapter 3 (your chapter)
[02:40] <IlyaHaykinson> oh. yeah, first i was in las vegas for a weekend.
[02:40] <humphreybc> Kevin and I both printed off the manual about a week ago
[02:40] <IlyaHaykinson> and then i was in Oregon for almost a week, with crappy internet
[02:40] <IlyaHaykinson> i saw your photos.
[02:40] <humphreybc> I had it bound at uni, been going through with a red pen
[02:40] <IlyaHaykinson> looks very cool.
[02:40] <humphreybc> Yeah
[02:40] <IlyaHaykinson> i'll print the final one for sure
[02:40] <humphreybc> I've had a glance over your chapter, while it's very good I've noticed a lack of margin notes compared to the rest of the manual
[02:41] <godbyk> Hey, IlyaHaykinson.
[02:41] <humphreybc> so I have been meaning to take some of the stuff that's in the main body and perhaps move it into margin notes, haven't got round to it yet
[02:41]  * IlyaHaykinson waves to godbyk
[02:41] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: when you talk to the CC people, you should ask them if the reference 1(f) should be 1(h) in the paragraph for section 1(b).
[02:41] <godbyk> (was that confusing enough?) :)
[02:42] <humphreybc> :P
[02:42] <IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: yeah, i didn't use the margin notes enough.
[02:42] <IlyaHaykinson> feel free to change things
[02:42] <humphreybc> okay
[02:42] <humphreybc> overall your chapter is the best in terms of error-free
[02:42] <humphreybc> so I'm not too worried
[02:42] <IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: are you sure that this is not an artifact of me using itemize/enumerate incorrectly?
[02:43] <humphreybc> but I'm hoping to cut it down a wee bit in length by moving some stuff to the margin
[02:43] <IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: are you sure? i'm not comfortable that i did enough testing when writing.
[02:43] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: no, I think it's a bug in the license text as it stands on their website.
[02:43] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: you haven't seen the other chapters =S
[02:43] <IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: hah, interesting. let me take a look.
[02:43] <IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc, oh, i did.
[02:43] <humphreybc> there are some chapters that are just ridden with craziness
[02:43] <humphreybc> we're getting there though
[02:44] <humphreybc> amazingly quickshot will be ready
[02:44] <humphreybc> so we still have a chance of getting all these screenshots and translations done
[02:45] <godbyk> The quickshot devs have been seriously kicking butt.
[02:45]  * godbyk is impressed
[02:46]  * humphreybc is also impressed
[02:46]  * humphreybc was telling some other people in the community about quickshot and they couldn't believe it
[02:48] <humphreybc> godbyk, daker, I wonder if we can implement the wiki contributions page with the instructions into the website?
[02:48] <humphreybc> I was thinking about it last night
[02:48] <daker> sure
[02:48]  * daker is trying Ground Control
[02:48] <humphreybc> we could leave the current get involved page as it is, but rename it to "About the project"
[02:48] <humphreybc> daker: ground control is broken at the moment, it won't validate your launchpad account details
[02:48] <godbyk> I think we can probably migrate all the wiki stuff to our own site.
[02:48] <humphreybc> okay
[02:48] <humphreybc> so this is how I was thinking
[02:49] <daker> o.O
[02:49] <humphreybc> we rename Get involved to "About the project" or something similar
[02:49] <humphreybc> remove the link at the bottom that points to our wiki
[02:49] <IlyaHaykinson> THE SCREENSHOTS ARE VERY NICE.
[02:49] <humphreybc> we add another page to the menu bar
[02:49] <IlyaHaykinson> oops, capslock
[02:49] <humphreybc> which is called "Get invovled"
[02:49] <godbyk> Why rename "get involved"?  I like it.
[02:49] <humphreybc> involved*
[02:49] <IlyaHaykinson> the problems i see are a) we use the quickshot account, but probably some other name is better
[02:49] <humphreybc> no because we want the get involved page to be about how to get involved :P
[02:50] <IlyaHaykinson> b) some screenshots need arrows, to show different parts of the UI
[02:50] <humphreybc> the get involved page is basically just our wiki contributions page, but prettied up somewhat
[02:50] <godbyk> humphreybc: isn't it now? or no?
[02:50]  * godbyk looks
[02:50] <humphreybc> godbyk, sort of
[02:50] <IlyaHaykinson> c) some of the screenshots show an empty state of applications/desktop, which makes it difficult to establish context
[02:50] <humphreybc> the current get involved page gives an overview of the project and who we need, then links to the actual instructions on how to get started
[02:50] <IlyaHaykinson> i.e. no emails in the inbox, no contacts, etc.
[02:51] <humphreybc> so we can keep it like that, but rename it to something more appropriate and use the "Get involved" thing for the actual page which shows you how to get involved in the various roles
[02:51] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: I think having some fake (and informative) content would be good.
[02:51] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: yeah, I know
[02:51] <humphreybc> I was thinking about that
[02:51] <humphreybc> Not sure how to go about it though
[02:51] <godbyk> I just looked at the 'get involved' page, humphreybc. I see what you're talking about now.
[02:51] <humphreybc> as for the quickshot name and image, we can very easily change that to John Doe or something
[02:51] <humphreybc> godbyk, sweet
[02:52] <humphreybc> so we make the Get Involved page more of an "overview" of the project, with some information and some history + who we're looking for. If they're keen, there will be a link down the bottom to the new "Get Involved" page (which will also be on the nav bar)
[02:52] <godbyk> When we create the account, we could drop in some data files that are filled with sample data.
[02:52] <godbyk> we'd just have to create the stuff first.
[02:52] <humphreybc> that could work
[02:52] <humphreybc> we'll have to talk to ubuntujenkins about it
[02:53] <godbyk> I think the hardest part will be creating good content.  (especially if we're talking about multilingual stuff!)
[02:53] <humphreybc> the nav bar will have Home, Downloads, About the project, Get Involved, Contributors
[02:53] <godbyk> the content should be realistic, but fictional.  (a little bit funny is okay, too.)
[02:54] <humphreybc> in the future once we implement the launchpad API to use our custom form, we'll also have the "Report a Bug" nav entry
[02:54] <daker> godbyk, +1
[02:54] <humphreybc> godbyk, example content?
[02:54] <godbyk> we could move contributors to a subpage/subsection of 'about'
[02:54] <godbyk> humphreybc: yeah, the example content
[02:54] <humphreybc> I mean the example content in your home directory on a fresh install
[02:54] <humphreybc> we could use some of that
[02:54] <godbyk> oh.
[02:55] <godbyk> yeah, but most of that's boring. :)
[02:55] <humphreybc> I want the contributors to be obvious, don't want to hide them away
[02:55] <godbyk> fair enough
[02:55] <humphreybc> we *could* make it a link from the about page but I'd like to avoid that if possible
[02:55] <humphreybc> so daker, have you got all that? :P
[02:55] <godbyk> we'll see how crowded the nav bar gets
[02:55] <IlyaHaykinson> well, the home directory already has sample content
[02:55] <humphreybc> yeah
[02:55] <IlyaHaykinson> like pics, documents, etc
[02:55] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: yeah, that's what I was talking about
[02:56] <IlyaHaykinson> but we also need emails, contacts, something other than about:home in the browser
[02:56] <daker> no, step by step humphreybc
[02:57] <humphreybc> right
[02:57] <humphreybc> daker, i'll do some instructions on an etherpad for you
[02:58] <daker>  yeah
[02:58] <godbyk> Oh, and IlyaHaykinson.. something we really need to start working on as soon as we get half a minute is a style guide.
[02:58] <godbyk> a lot of the 'bugs' I'm finding are just inconsistencies.
[02:59] <IlyaHaykinson> so we need a more precise style guide, you mean...
[02:59] <godbyk> yes.
[02:59] <godbyk> Something akin to the GNOME docs style guide.
[02:59] <godbyk> (The Ubuntu docs style guide doesn't seen nearly as well-developed as the GNOME one)
[03:00] <IlyaHaykinson> agreed.
[03:00] <IlyaHaykinson> i think this is a post-beta thing for sure
[03:01] <godbyk> we need to incorporate your writing style guidelines, the latex stuff, the translation stuff, and a whole host of other things into one style guide.
[03:01] <daker> godbyk, i found this http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~qense/%2Bjunk/liblp-php/annotate/head%3A/phplaunchpadlib.php
[03:01] <humphreybc> daker: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMPwebsiteA
[03:01] <humphreybc> without the
[03:01] <humphreybc> A
[03:01] <humphreybc> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMPwebsite
[03:02] <godbyk> daker: cool!  I'm going to take a look at the launchpad integration stuff after the beta.
[03:02] <daker> ;)
[03:04] <humphreybc> daker, does the stuff on the pad make sense?
[03:04] <daker> yeah
[03:04] <humphreybc> awesome
[03:04] <humphreybc> I hope that won't be too hard
[03:05] <daker> no
[03:05] <humphreybc> :D
[03:05] <humphreybc> It'd be neat if we could get some photos of each role, like some cheesy pictures of some people designing something
[03:05] <humphreybc> (and laughing)
[03:05] <humphreybc> Facebook says that 91% of our fans are male
[03:06] <daker> hhhh
[03:06] <IlyaHaykinson> big surprise :)
[03:06] <Red_HamsterX> 9% margin of error?
[03:06] <humphreybc> lol
[03:06] <humphreybc> 9% female, actually :P
[03:06] <humphreybc> some more fun stats
[03:06] <Red_HamsterX> Femals don't exist on the Internet!
[03:06] <humphreybc> USA is the biggest fan base, with 87 fans coming from there
[03:07] <humphreybc> Athens is our top city, with 33 fans
[03:07] <Red_HamsterX> Athens is weird.
[03:07] <Red_HamsterX> They seem to love my sites...
[03:07] <humphreybc> We have 759 fans in total
[03:07] <daker> Hellow, Morocco how much?
[03:07] <Red_HamsterX> According to Analytics.
[03:08] <daker> humphreybc, , Morocco how much?
[03:08] <humphreybc> our largest age group is 18-24 with 35% of our fans being that age
[03:08] <humphreybc> closely followed by 25 - 34 on 31%
[03:08] <humphreybc> daker, Morocco has 20 fans
[03:08] <daker> Oh
[03:08] <Red_HamsterX> Canadia?
[03:08] <humphreybc> Canada isn't on the list
[03:09] <humphreybc> The top 5 languages spoken by our fans are
[03:09] <Red_HamsterX> :(
[03:09] <humphreybc> English (US) 273
[03:09] <humphreybc> English (UK) 90
[03:09] <Red_HamsterX> Python?
[03:09] <humphreybc> French (81)
[03:09] <humphreybc> Spanish (70)
[03:09] <humphreybc> Spanish (Spain) 35
[03:10] <humphreybc> we've had 91 active fans this past week, with 267 total interactions... 99% of those were from males
[03:15] <humphreybc> my new monitor arrived on friday but no one was here to sign for it
[03:15] <godbyk> aw, c'mon!
[03:15]  * godbyk hates bzr
[03:15] <humphreybc> now i have to figure out how to get to the depot to pick it up
[03:15] <humphreybc> lol
[03:15]  * daker hates bzr too
[03:15] <humphreybc> what's it done now?
[03:16] <Red_HamsterX> It's just cool ot hate.
[03:17] <humphreybc> brb
[03:17] <godbyk> I just did a ton of edits, didn't see anything to pull, committed and tried to push: FAIL.
[03:17] <godbyk> daker sneaked in a website change on me. :-)
[03:18] <daker> oops
[03:18] <godbyk> all fixed now.
[03:18] <godbyk> I finished fixing all the bugs my python script has found so far.
[03:18] <godbyk> now I need to start reading through the manual again and find more bugs to add to my script.
[03:19] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: I wrote a short python script that scans the .tex files for common errors (e.g., missing commas after 'however', punctuation on the wrong side of the quotation marks, etc.)
[03:20] <godbyk> everyone can feel free to send me bugs that you see repeatedly and I'll add them to my script.
[03:21] <Red_HamsterX> The linguist in me feels rage at the existence of your script.
[03:21] <Red_HamsterX> "I shall forever rage at your script, however futile my efforts may be."
[03:22]  * daker is listening to Outlandish - Feels Like Saving The World
[03:23] <godbyk> Red_HamsterX: The linguist in me is happy to accept any help I can get.
[03:23] <godbyk> The script doesn't make any corrections.  Just suggests possible errors.
[03:23] <Red_HamsterX> I'd be delighted to offer it, were I not occupied with so many other tasks.
[03:23] <godbyk> The pedant in me is pleased with himself.
[03:23] <Red_HamsterX> Ah.
[03:23] <Red_HamsterX> Then I like it.
[03:24] <Red_HamsterX> I'll try to do an edit run over some key sections once Quickshot is frozen.
[03:24] <godbyk> Red_HamsterX: There are currently 17 possible errors that it's showing me that I've rejected as errors.
[03:25] <godbyk> For example, PPA should be all-caps, normally.  But in the case where it's used on the command line, it's all lowercase. So I ignore the script's suggestion to capitalize PPA in that case.
[03:26] <godbyk> Apparently people don't like to use commas around 'however'.  Fixed a ton of those.
[03:26] <godbyk> But again, there are situations where you *don't* use commas there.
[03:26] <Red_HamsterX> I'd suggest a comma after your introductory adverb.
[03:27] <godbyk> So the script will never make the changes for you -- just suggestions.
[03:27] <godbyk> It's optional. :)
[03:27] <Red_HamsterX> Not in my absolutist world.
[03:27] <godbyk> Though in formal writing, I'm prone to using commas there.
[03:27] <godbyk> lol
[03:27]  * Red_HamsterX shall conquer the world, merely to enforce his own personal views about punctuation and editorial styles.
[03:28] <godbyk> I thought all linguists were supposed to be of the 'descriptive not prescriptive' attitude!
[03:28] <godbyk> Ha!  Unless I get there first!
[03:29] <Red_HamsterX> Pfft. Only feminist linguists. I subscribe to conflict theory and I'm on the side that's right.
[03:29] <Red_HamsterX> ('feminist' referring to the sociological term, not the movement)
[03:30] <Red_HamsterX> My interest in linguistics applies to machine learning and interpretation, not human-to-human interaction.
[03:31] <godbyk> Red_HamsterX: Same here.  Computational linguistics.
[03:31] <donri> Red_HamsterX, #lojban :)
[03:31] <Red_HamsterX> Aww... You used the name of our shared area of academic interest. :(
[03:31] <godbyk> And if people just followed my rules all the time, it's make NLP a whole lot simpler!
[03:32] <Red_HamsterX> Agreed.
[03:32] <Red_HamsterX> http://xkcd.com/114/ I have to link to this whenever anyone mentions the name.
[03:32] <godbyk> lol
[03:33] <Red_HamsterX> 'Cause I had it taped my Eee through all classes on the subject.
[03:33] <Red_HamsterX> taped to*
[03:33] <daker> godbyk, if you could pls check if the url_rewriting is enabled
[03:33] <godbyk> I sent that to my linguistics professor last year and he laughed and conceded that it was true.
[03:33] <godbyk> daker: if it's not, you can enable it using a .htaccess file.
[03:34] <Red_HamsterX> Oh, wow. #lojban is real. And it's big.
[03:34] <Red_HamsterX> I don't have to know Logban to converse in there, do I?
[03:34] <daker> the .htaccess file isn't uploaded to the server
[03:35] <Red_HamsterX> You could add it, couldn't you, daker?
[03:36] <daker> i can
[03:36] <godbyk> daker: go ahead. :)
[03:37] <godbyk> Red_HamsterX: You don't have to speak Logban, but if you use a syntactically ambiguous sentence, you'll be banned. :)
[03:37] <Red_HamsterX> But...
[03:37] <Red_HamsterX> Gah!
[03:37] <daker> godbyk, the problem is that there was already an htaccess, and i can not find it
[03:38] <Red_HamsterX> Now I can't resist!
[03:38] <godbyk> It'll take you five minutes to write each sentence, as you'll have to parse it repeatedly just to verify that there's only one allowable syntax tree.
[03:38]  * Red_HamsterX finds someone who can appreciate ambiguity expressed through puns.
[03:39] <Red_HamsterX> But there's *always* another valid syntax tree!
[03:39] <Red_HamsterX> NULL COMPLEMENTS!
[03:39] <godbyk> daker: I don't follow.  It doesn't appear that there's a .htaccess file in the website/daker-test/ dir, so you should be able to add one.
[03:39] <donri> http://xkcd.com/191/
[03:40] <Red_HamsterX> I'm familiar with it, donri. Thank you, though.
[03:41] <donri> ui
[03:41] <godbyk> Red_HamsterX: I suppose.  <evil grin>
[03:44] <Red_HamsterX> You might find http://uguu.ca/ar-sphaela/hymmnoserver/ interesting, godbyk.
[03:44] <Red_HamsterX> Note that I had to make up a large number of phrase-types due to the unstructured nature of the language.
[03:44] <godbyk> Red_HamsterX: My class project from ages ago: http://tagninja.org/
[03:44] <daker> godbyk, It'll take you five minutes to write each sentence, as you'll have to parse it repeatedly just to verify that there's only one allowable syntax tree.
[03:45] <daker> sorry
[03:45] <daker> godbyk, bzr: ERROR: These branches have diverged. Use the missing command to see how.
[03:45] <daker> Use the merge command to reconcile them.
[03:45] <Red_HamsterX> Wrong copy-target?
[03:45] <Red_HamsterX> bzr merge
[03:45] <Red_HamsterX> Patch first.
[03:45] <godbyk> Wow, talk about throwing my words back in my face. :)
[03:45] <Red_HamsterX> Er... Prepare a patch*
[03:45] <daker> hhh
[03:45] <Red_HamsterX> To avoid that in the future, always pull before committing.
[03:46] <godbyk> daker, if you run 'bzr status' does it show any files not related to the website as modified?
[03:46] <godbyk> if not, then you can safely 'bzr merge', then 'bzr commit', then 'bzr push'
[03:46] <daker> daker@ubuntu:~/ubuntu-projects/ubuntu-manual$ bzr status
[03:46] <daker> modified:
[03:46] <daker>   default-apps/gettingonline.tex
[03:46] <daker>   default-apps/listening-to-audio-and-music.tex
[03:46] <daker>   default-apps/microblogging.tex
[03:46] <daker>   default-apps/readingcomposingemail.tex
[03:46] <Red_HamsterX> godbyk, your sign-up page is made of labels-on-the-wrong-side-of-inputs.
[03:46] <daker>   default-apps/taking-notes.tex
[03:46] <daker>   default-apps/using-instant-messaging.tex
[03:46] <daker>   default-apps/viewing-and-editing-photos.tex
[03:46] <daker>   default-apps/watching-videos-and-movies.tex
[03:46] <daker>   installation/installation.tex
[03:46] <daker>   prefs-hardware/displays.tex
[03:46] <daker>   prologue/prologue.tex
[03:46] <daker> unknown:
[03:47] <daker>   website/daker-test/.htaccess
[03:47] <daker> pending merge tips: (use -v to see all merge revisions)
[03:47] <daker>   Kevin Godby 2010-03-28 [merge] * Merging with main.
[03:47] <Red_HamsterX> Actually, having those in there isn't a sign of badness.
[03:47] <godbyk> Red_HamsterX: yeah, it's apparently all kinds of messed up now.  we banged it out in a week at the end of the semester, so it's quite slap-dash.
[03:47]  * daker is lost
[03:47] <Red_HamsterX> Since those are likely other peoples' sub-revisions.
[03:47] <Red_HamsterX> We haven't lost any data to merging yet.
[03:48] <godbyk> yeah, those are my revisions.
[03:48] <Red_HamsterX> And it's happened a not-small number of times.
[03:48] <Red_HamsterX> For some sort of set expressible in terms of arbitrary sizes.
[03:48] <godbyk> merging will be find there
[03:48] <godbyk> fine there, rather.
[03:49] <godbyk> So daker:
[03:49] <daker> i am lost
[03:49] <godbyk> bzr commit -m "Merging with main"
[03:49] <godbyk> bzr add website/daker-test/.htaccess
[03:49] <godbyk> bzr commit -m "Adding .htaccess file."
[03:49] <godbyk> bzr push
[03:49] <godbyk> [assuming no one else pushes in the meantime]
[03:50]  * Red_HamsterX holds off his `bzr del * && bzr commit -m "MWAHAHA!" && bzr push`.
[03:50] <Red_HamsterX> +on
[03:51] <godbyk> Red_HamsterX: you're so evil! :)
[03:51] <Red_HamsterX> Oh, wait. This is version-controlled!
[03:51] <IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: re your script, nice. i'll tweak it for some other things i look for when i have a chance.
[03:51] <Red_HamsterX> Evil plan thwarted!
[03:51]  * Red_HamsterX cries.
[03:52] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: cool
[03:52] <IlyaHaykinson> it's all regexes, i assume?
[03:52] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: pretty much, yeah.
[03:52] <IlyaHaykinson> on lines, or whole files?
[03:52] <daker> godbyk, it works
[03:52] <godbyk> it globs the .tex files, scans them one at a time, line by line.
[03:52] <godbyk> not the most efficient way, but it's a quick-and-dirty script
[03:52] <daker> thanks
[03:52] <godbyk> daker: so what's mod_rewrite get us?
[03:52] <Red_HamsterX> Scripts aren't required to be efficient.
[03:53] <Red_HamsterX> The ability to rewrite URLs.
[03:53] <Red_HamsterX> Oh.
[03:53] <Red_HamsterX> Wait. Wrong person asking.
[03:53]  * godbyk glares at Red_HamsterX disapprovingly.
[03:54] <IlyaHaykinson> line by line is actually a bit of an issue, since i (and some other authors) add newlines
[03:54] <daker> we will see if it works
[03:55] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: right.  so far it's checking for word-level errors (common misspellings, punctuation errors, etc.).
[03:55] <godbyk> but at some point, we may want to improve the parsing.
[03:55] <Red_HamsterX> Sounds like something I'd like to help with.
[03:55] <godbyk> It's one of those 'add features as you go' things. :)
[03:56] <godbyk> Red_HamsterX: feel free.
[03:56] <godbyk> I guess I should add it to the repository then.
[03:56] <Red_HamsterX> Right now, Quickshot is more needy, attention-wise.
[03:56] <godbyk> that's true.
[03:56] <godbyk> for you, at least. :)
[03:56] <IlyaHaykinson> what about running it through [ai]spell?
[03:56] <godbyk> I wouldn't mind helping with quickshot, but I have my hands full with editing the manual.
[03:56] <Red_HamsterX> Even though I fixed the last major capture bug.
[03:57] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: you could. I've been doing that a bit here and there.
[03:57] <Red_HamsterX> I wouldn't mind editing the manual, but I have my hands full with Quickshot (and five other projects)
[03:57] <IlyaHaykinson> i did a while ago; i'll take a crack at it post-beta
[03:57] <godbyk> there's probably some python interface to .spell, too.
[03:57] <IlyaHaykinson> nod. i used that, last time.
[03:57] <IlyaHaykinson> little fixes we can make whenever; it's the large scale fixes that we need right now.
[03:58] <IlyaHaykinson> like removing empty/incomplete sections (there are still some left over), fixing gross mistakes, etc
[03:58] <godbyk> yeah, there are tons of those, too.
[03:58] <IlyaHaykinson> spelling and some minor grammar can be done later, since they won't exist in translated versions.
[04:00] <godbyk> as long as we branch to fix the spelling/grammar issues.
[04:01] <humphreybc> well I got my second 24" monitor
[04:01] <godbyk> otherwise anything we touch in the files will affect the translations as seen by rosetta/launchpad.
[04:01] <humphreybc> it's pretty sweet, I tried it out with my laptop in dualscreen (so laptop + 24" + 24")
[04:01] <humphreybc> Ubuntu didn't like having all three going at once so I could only get the two 24" going and my laptop with the lid closed. Was cool but I don't have enough room on my desk :P
[04:03] <Red_HamsterX> http://stellvia.uguu.ca/~flan/images/p_00004.jpg You need a desk more like this, then.
[04:03] <godbyk> daker: I think it'd be nice if our urls didn't have the ? in them.  So it should be http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/bugs instead of http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/bugs
[04:04] <godbyk> can you set up the site to allow that?
[04:04] <humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: is that your desk?!
[04:04] <Red_HamsterX> Yes, it is.
[04:04] <humphreybc> awesome!
[04:04] <humphreybc> how many computers!?
[04:04] <Red_HamsterX> Far more than what you see there.
[04:05] <humphreybc> crazy
[04:06] <godbyk> Red_HamsterX: nice, er, monitor stands.  ;-)
[04:06] <Red_HamsterX> I'm frugal. :)
[04:06] <humphreybc> what size monitors?
[04:07] <Red_HamsterX> 21.5", 19", 19", 19".
[04:07] <Red_HamsterX> All linked with Synergy.
[04:07] <daker> godbyk, thats what iam doing
[04:07] <humphreybc> disappointed, they should all be 24" at least
[04:07] <humphreybc> P
[04:07] <humphreybc> :P &
[04:07] <Red_HamsterX> I hate huge onitors.
[04:07] <godbyk> daker: awesome
[04:07] <Red_HamsterX> monitors*
[04:08] <humphreybc> this is my setup currently, http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/4472287022/sizes/o/Q
[04:08] <Red_HamsterX> Broken link.
[04:08] <Red_HamsterX> http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/4472287022/ works, though.
[04:08] <humphreybc> man
[04:09] <Red_HamsterX> Looks like a dorm.
[04:09] <humphreybc> my stupid copy and paste is broken
[04:09] <humphreybc> I think it's parcellite
[04:09] <humphreybc> nah it's my bedroom
[04:09] <humphreybc> well
[04:09] <humphreybc> bedroom + office + music studio
[04:09] <humphreybc> (I live in a flat)
[04:13] <Red_HamsterX> Bleh. I'm stuck in godbyk's Tagninja thing.
[04:13]  * Red_HamsterX returns to doing productive things.
[04:13] <godbyk> Red_HamsterX: you're actually playing it? nice.
[04:13] <Red_HamsterX> There seems to be some sort of corruption in one of the questions.
[04:14] <Red_HamsterX> As s varies from zero to T, the values of s for which **f and **f cross C will be denoted by **f and **f respectively.
[04:14] <godbyk> a tip: you get points whether you answer correctly or not. :-)
[04:14] <Red_HamsterX> Yeah, I noticed.
[04:14] <Red_HamsterX> I'm wondering if the sound reflects quality of answer.
[04:14] <godbyk> Nope.
[04:14] <godbyk> The sounds are randomly selected from a pool.
[04:14] <Red_HamsterX>    1.  a service in the Roman Catholic Church formerly read or chanted at 3 PM (the ninth hour counting from sunrise) but now somewhat earlier
[04:14] <godbyk> The points are potentially affected by the quality of the answer.
[04:14] <Red_HamsterX>    2. a canonical hour that is the ninth hour of the day counting from sunrise
[04:15] <Red_HamsterX> Those are the responses.
[04:15] <godbyk> If your answer matches the popular answer, you get more points.
[04:15] <Red_HamsterX> I don't see how they relate.
[04:15] <Red_HamsterX> Oh, it's based on popularity?
[04:15] <Red_HamsterX> Lame.
[04:15] <Red_HamsterX> I thought it was based on prescriptive correctness.
[04:15] <godbyk> I think initially it is.. Initially, you're playing against tagged corpus.
[04:16] <godbyk> But after we've seen that you're not an idiot (or a bot), then it migrates you over to untagged corpus.
[04:16] <godbyk> The idea is that you're tagging text for us to train the algorithms with.
[04:16] <godbyk> (Though we never actually finished the project and got to that point.)
[04:16] <Red_HamsterX> Ah...
[04:16] <Red_HamsterX> Okay, that makes sense.
[04:16] <Red_HamsterX> A lot of sense, actually.
[04:17] <Red_HamsterX> It'd actually complement another algorithm I devised for a project...
[04:17] <Red_HamsterX> (That algorithm being a form of crowdsourcing)
[04:17] <godbyk> I think it's a decent idea.  The gameplay should be vastly improved, but I think that sort of game couple be made fun and serve as a good way to tag corpora.
[04:17] <godbyk> right
[04:17] <Red_HamsterX> (Channel full of geeks + shiny toy = Wikipedia effect)
[04:24] <humphreybc> lol
[04:24] <daker> lol too :p
[04:24] <daker> godbyk, is that a dedicated server ?
[04:24]  * godbyk hopes they're not laughing at me.
[04:25] <godbyk> is what a dedicated server?
[04:25]  * humphreybc is trying out Moovida. Want to make a home TV media center now.
[04:25] <daker> where you are hosting the website
[04:25] <Red_HamsterX> I think we've outed ourselves as the channel's nerds, godbyk.
[04:25] <godbyk> daker: it's a shared server.
[04:25] <godbyk> Red_HamsterX: apparently. :)
[04:25] <daker> o.O
[04:26] <humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: I think so
[04:26]  * humphreybc is going to buy a 42" LCD next year with his course related costs
[04:27]  * humphreybc will also create a small computer with an HDMI out graphics card with Moovida installed
[04:27] <daker> godbyk, normally it should works with the current htaccess
[04:27] <Red_HamsterX> daker, where's the file located? I've got some servers I could try it on.
[04:27]  * humphreybc will hook up small TV computer to his server and enjoy thousands of movies and TV shows along with streaming online content. It will be awesome.
[04:28] <daker> Red_HamsterX, /website/daker-test/.htaccess
[04:30] <Red_HamsterX> Can it run outside of a root context? (i.e., ~flan/ump-test(
[04:30] <daker> probably
[04:31] <humphreybc> anyone here running ATI graphics with the closed source drivers?
[04:31] <godbyk> being a shared server shouldn't affect the .htaccess file, I wouldn't think.
[04:31] <Red_HamsterX> Wow. bazaar is really inefficient when it comes to the amount of data that needs to be transferred to update working copies.
[04:32] <godbyk> Red_HamsterX: yeah, it really is.
[04:33] <Red_HamsterX> I'm going to make sure of two things, godbyk: (1) the .htaccess file is properly crafted and (2) no special Apache compile flags or module configuration rules are needed to use it.
[04:33] <Red_HamsterX> [############|       ]  39612KB     0KB/s | Pull phase:Merge phase:Preparing fi
[04:33] <Red_HamsterX> It's... still going...
[04:34] <humphreybc> so it's not just my bzr that's as slow as a shit covered camel carrying Rosie O'Donnell up Mt Everest
[04:34] <godbyk> Red_HamsterX: the whole branch is 150 MB or something like that.
[04:35] <daker> 2 days before it was about 50Mo ?
[04:36] <Red_HamsterX> That was a merge against a branch from Thursday.
[04:36] <Red_HamsterX> pull*
[04:37] <IlyaHaykinson> re the website,... can we add a rewrite rule to make paths (/download) instead of queries (?download) etc?
 daker: I think it'd be nice if our urls didn't have the ? in them.  So it should be http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/bugs instead of http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/bugs
 can you set up the site to allow that?
 godbyk, thats what iam doing
[04:38] <daker> IlyaHaykinson, :)
[04:38] <humphreybc> neat
[04:38] <humphreybc> I was wondering about that too
[04:38] <humphreybc> nice work daker
[04:39] <IlyaHaykinson> daker: ah. sorry, didn't notice! great minds think alike? :)
[04:41] <Red_HamsterX> So what am I looking for, daker?
[04:41] <Red_HamsterX> Oh, that.
[04:42] <godbyk> lol
[04:42] <godbyk> everyone on the same page now? <grin>
[04:42] <daker> Red_HamsterX, forgot about it its related with the shared host, the script works very well, i have just to change somethings
[04:42] <humphreybc> anyone else experiencing this on Lucid? https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-system-monitor/+bug/550647
[04:42] <manualbot> Launchpad bug 550647 in gnome-system-monitor "System Monitor icons are lacking transparency" [Undecided,New]
[04:42]  * daker is using Karmic
[04:43] <Red_HamsterX> So I don't need to troubleshoot it?
[04:43] <daker> no Red_HamsterX
[04:43] <daker> :)
[04:44] <daker> i should fix it
[04:44] <daker> thanks
[04:44] <Red_HamsterX> Okay. Well, let me know if you want me to test anything.
[04:44] <daker> oki
[04:57] <humphreybc> hey so godbyk, do you think we need a 1px border around screenshots?
[04:57] <humphreybc> also, I noticed small screenshots are left-aligned by default
[04:57] <godbyk> humphreybc: hold on a minute and I'll look.
[04:57] <humphreybc> kinda looks odd for things like the tiny shots which just show buttons
[04:58] <godbyk> it might be better for those to not be just buttons. shoe the top inch of the window or something to give the buttons some context.
[04:59]  * IlyaHaykinson agrees
[04:59] <humphreybc> yeah, that's what i'd like
[05:00] <Red_HamsterX> I'm only aware of one instance where that's a factor...
[05:00] <Red_HamsterX> In the stuff I currently have Quichshot configured to capture, I mean.
[05:00] <Red_HamsterX> Quickshot*
[05:00] <Red_HamsterX> Quiche-shot.
[05:00] <Red_HamsterX> Mmm... Quiche...
[05:00] <IlyaHaykinson> there's the desktop chapter with the minimize/maximize/close controls
[05:01] <godbyk> did we ever figure out what's up with evince/poppler/whatever and their bad scaling algorithm?
[05:01] <IlyaHaykinson> then there's the URL bar in FF
[05:01] <IlyaHaykinson> and the Find bar in FF
[05:01] <Red_HamsterX> That instance is Firefox's search bar.
[05:01] <Red_HamsterX> The thing that used to be Google-y, but is now Yahoo-y.
[05:01] <Red_HamsterX> Well, yeah, those two, too...
[05:01] <Red_HamsterX> But it's kinda hard to miss them.
[05:02] <Red_HamsterX> And Firefox's find bar is hard to contextify.
[05:02] <Red_HamsterX> Since it's bordered bya  mostly empty status bar and whitespace.
[05:02] <Red_HamsterX> by a
[05:02] <IlyaHaykinson> hm, can show the lower 15% of FF's window, showing some web page...
[05:02] <Red_HamsterX> And the location bar has a bunch of buttons next to it.
[05:02] <godbyk> figure 2.2 could use some more context (p. 28)
[05:02] <IlyaHaykinson> or even with a word entered in, and showing highligted on the web page in the browser
[05:02] <Red_HamsterX> Unfortunately, the web page it defaults to is all-white on the bottom.
[05:03] <Red_HamsterX> Anyone have a suggestion for another page to point to?
[05:03] <IlyaHaykinson> ubuntu.com
[05:03] <IlyaHaykinson> help.ubuntu.com
[05:03] <Red_HamsterX> OH, NO! I ENEDED A SENTENCE WITH A PREPOSITION!
[05:03]  * Red_HamsterX dies.
[05:04] <Red_HamsterX> Okay, I can do that.
[05:04] <IlyaHaykinson> 'cept ubuntu.com will change soon.
[05:04] <godbyk> did we decide if we needed to nix the ubuntu help center screenshot to free up space on the live cd?
[05:05] <Red_HamsterX> ubuntujenkins got it below 700MB somehow.
[05:05] <godbyk> fig 3.1 on page 43 might want some context, too.
[05:05] <godbyk> (like how it looks in figure 3.2 on the following page, actually)
[05:05] <Red_HamsterX> I don't have a PDF handy. What does it depict?
[05:05] <IlyaHaykinson> btw what do we do about the screenshot scaling looking shitty on screens?
[05:05] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: I think that's Evince's problem
[05:06] <godbyk> So far, I think all the screenshots look pretty good without the border.  Are there any in particular that concern you, humphreybc?
[05:06] <IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: ok, hang on, trying this with Adobe's viewer on windows
[05:06] <humphreybc> godbyk yeah, fig 3.7
[05:06]  * humphreybc thinks that he's inhaling so much dust from his room
[05:06] <godbyk> hmm.. maybe use a non-maximized window so you get the window border?
[05:07] <godbyk> Red_HamsterX: it's the image of about:home
[05:07] <IlyaHaykinson> ok, agreed, looks much better in Adobe's reader
[05:07] <godbyk> in a maximized browser window.
[05:07] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: interestingly, it also looks good in xpdf.
[05:08] <humphreybc> does your body have a good in build dust filter?
[05:08] <godbyk> humphreybc: as long as you don't trim your noise hairs, sure.
[05:08] <humphreybc> lol
[05:09] <Red_HamsterX> Okay, all of the Firefox things should have better rectangles now.
[05:09] <Red_HamsterX> Anything else?
[05:10] <godbyk> Red_HamsterX: does the advanced search dialog really look like that by default in evolution? that's crazy.
[05:10] <Red_HamsterX> Dunno. I couldn't figure out what it was from by looking at it.
[05:10] <Red_HamsterX> Lemme boot Lucid to check.
[05:11] <IlyaHaykinson> that's what it looked like in Karmic, which i jused to write
[05:11] <humphreybc> it's going to be a mission to get through Ilya's chapter
[05:12] <humphreybc> good work on writing so damn much Ilya ;)
[05:12] <IlyaHaykinson> well, it's Ilya's/Luke's/Matt's chapter, really
[05:12] <humphreybc> right
[05:12] <humphreybc> either way, it's fucking huge
[05:12] <humphreybc> :P
[05:12] <IlyaHaykinson> but nod, it was a lot of writing.
[05:12] <IlyaHaykinson> which was nice. definitely the longest piece of technical writing i've ever done
[05:12] <humphreybc> heh
[05:12] <humphreybc> time to whip out the red pen and start tackling it on paper
[05:12] <IlyaHaykinson> my other writing achievement to date is finishing NaNoWriMo this past year.
[05:13] <IlyaHaykinson> 50k words / 1 month
[05:13] <humphreybc> heh
[05:13] <humphreybc> godbyk did you replace internet with Internet throughout the entire manual/
[05:13] <humphreybc> ?*
[05:13] <Red_HamsterX> Quickshot has a scrollbar! Yay!
[05:13] <humphreybc> so I don't have to highlight those
[05:14] <Red_HamsterX> I'd hug titeuf if he were here.
[05:15] <humphreybc> anyone got a link to a community docs page about connecting to a home/office network?
[05:15] <humphreybc> Is NetworkManager really called that? (ie, no space?)
[05:16] <daker> godbyk, could pls pull the website to the server ?
[05:16] <godbyk> humphreybc: yes
[05:16] <humphreybc> It's really really gross
[05:16] <humphreybc> I want to change it
[05:16] <humphreybc> Looks like a typo
[05:16] <IlyaHaykinson> yeah, that's the real name
[05:16] <humphreybc> sigh.
[05:16] <Red_HamsterX> Smack Red[ ]?Hat.
[05:16] <IlyaHaykinson> all over Ubuntu help that way too
[05:16] <humphreybc> that sucks
[05:16] <humphreybc> it looks like crap like that
[05:16] <IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: agreed
[05:16] <godbyk> humphreybc: yeah, no space on NM
[05:16] <humphreybc> I wonder if the world will explode if we change it
[05:17] <IlyaHaykinson> http://projects.gnome.org/NetworkManager/
[05:17] <humphreybc> yeah it is Red Hat
[05:17] <godbyk> my proofread.py script will. :)
[05:17] <humphreybc> screw it, I don't like it without a space, let's change it. People aren't going to be confused.
[05:17] <IlyaHaykinson> i disagree
[05:18] <IlyaHaykinson> i went back and forth on this one
[05:18] <IlyaHaykinson> but decided to keep it without a space
[05:18] <IlyaHaykinson> because this is what it's like in help, and online
[05:18] <humphreybc> If people really do think NetworkManager and Network Manager are two separate things then they are weird
[05:18] <godbyk> yeah, I debated, too, and settled on going with the official spelling.
[05:18] <humphreybc> yeah I know
[05:18] <IlyaHaykinson> and people will search for one word
[05:18] <humphreybc> that's true
[05:18] <humphreybc> gah
[05:18] <IlyaHaykinson> if we care about it enough, lobby Ubuntu to change it
[05:18] <humphreybc> it just looks so CRAP
[05:18] <IlyaHaykinson> they changed Totem to just "Movie Player"
[05:18] <humphreybc> I'm sure it doesn't fit in with the Gnome HIG
[05:18] <IlyaHaykinson> and changed all the OO names too.
[05:19] <humphreybc> Rhythmbox is now "Music Player" btw
[05:19] <IlyaHaykinson> nice.
[05:19] <humphreybc> It still has Rhythmbox in the menu
[05:19] <humphreybc> but the window titles are all "Music Player"
[05:19] <humphreybc> which is actually a bit crap
[05:19] <IlyaHaykinson> i think we mention both names in chapters
[05:19] <IlyaHaykinson> er, sections
[05:19] <IlyaHaykinson> but then stick with the dominant name
[05:20] <IlyaHaykinson> so refenreces to Totem will be "the Totem Movie Player" etc
[05:20] <IlyaHaykinson> i don't know how consistent we are tho
[05:20] <humphreybc> anyone know whether NetworkManager breaks the GNOME HIG?
[05:20] <IlyaHaykinson> i don't think HIGs cover naming
[05:20] <IlyaHaykinson> after all, "GNOME"
[05:20] <humphreybc> they do
[05:21] <humphreybc> no they do
[05:21] <humphreybc> they're changing gtk-mydesktop-recorder
[05:21] <humphreybc> to something like "Screen Recorder"
[05:21] <IlyaHaykinson> "GNOME" itself breaks whatever guidelines they probably have
[05:21] <humphreybc> because of the HIG
[05:21] <godbyk> Last I remember, they say 'Movie Player' if you only have the default installed (as no one knows what 'Totem' alone means), but if you have more than one installed or if there's ambiguity, it's 'Totem Movie Player'.
[05:21] <IlyaHaykinson> well, when they change it, we can change it. i will be the first to make that s//g
[05:21] <godbyk> :)
[05:22] <humphreybc> I'm submitting a bug now, i'll talk to mpt about it later
[05:22] <IlyaHaykinson> 'k
[05:22] <humphreybc> afaik not having a space breaks some sort of guideline
[05:22] <daker> godbyk, ??!!!
[05:23] <godbyk> daker: ?
[05:23] <humphreybc> !!?!?!?!
 godbyk, could pls pull the website to the server ?
[05:23] <godbyk> daker: sure
[05:24] <godbyk> daker: done
[05:24] <daker> fuck 500
[05:24] <humphreybc> daker: what changes have you made?
[05:24] <humphreybc> lol fuck 500 huh
[05:24] <humphreybc> this is a real thing
[05:25] <humphreybc> question: Should stuff like desktop envrionment and internet service provider be title-case because they have acronyms like DE and ISP?
[05:25] <humphreybc> so should it be Internet Service Provider or Desktop Environment?
[05:25] <humphreybc> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager/+bug/550667
[05:25] <manualbot> Launchpad bug 550667 in network-manager "NetworkManager name (possibly) breaks GNOME HIG" [Undecided,New]
[05:26] <godbyk> humphreybc: re: acronyms:
[05:26] <godbyk> Here's the deal with acronyms: Just because the acronyms are all-caps, doesn't mean they are capitalized when spelled out.
[05:27] <humphreybc> okay, so they're not?
[05:27] <Red_HamsterX> Case-by-case.
[05:27] <godbyk> Then the acronym is spelled out, use whatever case you would normally use.  So 'Internet' is still capitalized, but 'service provider' is not.
[05:27] <humphreybc> okay
[05:27] <godbyk> ISP = "Internet service provider"
[05:27] <humphreybc> you changed internet to Internet right?
[05:27] <godbyk> DE = "desktop environment"
[05:27] <daker> godbyk, again pls
[05:28] <godbyk> (unless it starts a sentence, in which case "Desktop environment")
[05:28] <humphreybc> lol @ daker
[05:28] <godbyk> daker: done
[05:28] <IlyaHaykinson> er, actually internet should be lowercase now
[05:28] <IlyaHaykinson> in line with gnome and ubuntu guidelines
[05:28] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: seriously?
[05:28] <IlyaHaykinson> nod
[05:28] <humphreybc> :(
[05:29] <IlyaHaykinson> lots of style guides have it that way now
[05:29] <humphreybc> yay.
[05:29] <Red_HamsterX> I'll never accept lower-casing it.
[05:29] <godbyk> If it refers to "the Internet," it should be capitalized.   If it refers to "an internet," then it's lowercase.
[05:29] <donri> "NetworkManager should become Network Manager (without the space)." ← wait, what?
[05:29] <donri> That ends up "NetworkManager". :)
[05:29] <Red_HamsterX> Unless referring to a secondary internet.
[05:29] <humphreybc> oh wait
[05:29] <Red_HamsterX> Like what godbyk just said.
[05:29] <IlyaHaykinson> there's no such thing as an internet, for practical purposes (despite the derivation of the name)
[05:29] <IlyaHaykinson> it's like "the radio"
[05:29] <humphreybc> donri: thanks for picking that up
[05:29] <humphreybc> changed it :P
[05:29] <godbyk> I know lots of style guides have started making it lowercase, but since there's a difference between the Internet and an internet in my house, I think the case matters.
[05:29] <IlyaHaykinson> it used to be "the Radio" in the early days
[05:30] <Red_HamsterX> Every noun used to be capitalized.
[05:30] <IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: our use is in line with Ubuntu docs, at the very least, so i'd like to keep it.
[05:30] <godbyk> I'll give you email, offline, and online.  But Internet stays. :)
[05:30] <daker> godbyk, again again pls
[05:30] <humphreybc> damnit, Ilya, hardly any of the stuff in chapter 3 is margin-note-ifiable
[05:30] <IlyaHaykinson> personally i may have some yearning for an _I_nternet, for sure.
[05:30] <godbyk> The Ubuntu docs style guide is half-baked, I think.
[05:30] <IlyaHaykinson> well, sure. but the help docs are written to them.
[05:30] <Red_HamsterX> I will not give you e-mail. But I'll suffer it for the sake of style.
[05:30] <humphreybc> godbyk, just like everything they do... cough
[05:30] <IlyaHaykinson> and i think the note is fair.
[05:30] <godbyk> daker: done
[05:31] <IlyaHaykinson> it's time for Internet to get downcased
[05:31] <IlyaHaykinson> even if oldtimers like us don't want it.
[05:31] <humphreybc> lol
[05:31] <donri> humphreybc, where even does it say "NetworkManager"?
[05:31] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Hmm.. I'll ponder it a bit longer.  (It's an easy change to make later.)
[05:31] <godbyk> donri: In the chapter that talks about NetworkManager. :)
[05:31] <IlyaHaykinson> donri: all over the section in chapter 3
[05:32] <donri> But in Ubuntu.
[05:32] <humphreybc> someone give me a nice definition of an IP address please
[05:32] <IlyaHaykinson> [[IP address]
[05:32] <IlyaHaykinson> [[IP address]]
[05:32] <IlyaHaykinson> darn it, where is a wikibot when you need one
[05:32] <godbyk> something I should mention: for those super-small screenshots -- ones that would fit in the sidenote area -- we can actually put the images in the sidenote area, if you like.
[05:33] <Red_HamsterX> Just liken it to a phone number or a house's address.
[05:33] <godbyk> (I just have to write a bit of code to do it.)
[05:33] <humphreybc> godbyk that's a good idea
[05:33] <IlyaHaykinson> An Internet Protocol (IP) address is a numerical label that is assigned to devices participating in a computer network that uses the Internet Protocol for communication between its nodes
[05:33] <IlyaHaykinson> rephrase, to avoid having to credit WP
[05:33] <humphreybc> Ilya, that's a great definition for a computer geek
[05:33] <humphreybc> what's a device? what's a node?!
[05:33] <humphreybc> a numerical label? lol
[05:34] <nisshh> hey
[05:34] <Red_HamsterX> Hi.
[05:34] <nisshh> does anyone here know much about lxde?
[05:34] <daker> godbyk, once again
[05:34] <IlyaHaykinson> ok. my try then: "An IP (or Internet Protocol) address is a set of four numbers separated by periods. IP addresses provide a way for computers to communicate over the internet."
[05:35] <IlyaHaykinson> brb, dinner
[05:35] <humphreybc> how's this: "An Internet Protocol (IP) address is a numerical label assigned to devices on a computer network. It is the internet equivalent of phone numbers for your house and allows your computer to be uniquely identified so you can access the internet and share files with others."
[05:35] <godbyk> daker: done
[05:35] <humphreybc> nisshh: it's cool
[05:35] <humphreybc> nisshh: go to omgubuntu.co.uk and search for "lubuntu"
[05:36] <nisshh> humphreybc: i know, its extremely fast too
[05:36] <donri> People still doesn't have IPv6?
[05:36] <Red_HamsterX> It'll be a long time before most people will.
[05:36] <humphreybc> donri: most of the world still use IPv4
[05:36] <Red_HamsterX> ISPs will keep translating things into IPv4 and then there are residential routers to worry about...
[05:36] <donri> Maybe throw in a "usually" before saying an IP is a set of four numbers.
[05:37] <Red_HamsterX> I think it's safe to still with the implied 'always' for now.
[05:37] <Red_HamsterX> Anyone with IPv6 doesn't need the manual.
[05:37] <donri> I guess. But I get OCD itches telling lies. :)
[05:38] <Red_HamsterX> I'd say the same thing if I didn't have experience writing for the clueless.
[05:38] <Red_HamsterX> Say "usually" and someone will panic.
[05:38] <donri> True.
[05:39] <daker> godbyk, the last one pls
[05:39] <godbyk> "internet" with a lowercase I just makes it look lazy. :-/
[05:39] <godbyk> daker: promise? :)
[05:39] <daker> promise :)
[05:40] <godbyk> daker: nothing new. did you push yet?
[05:40] <nisshh> humphreybc: all it came up with is a post about xubuntu
[05:40] <daker> daker@ubuntu:~/ubuntu-projects/ubuntu-manual$ bzr push
[05:40] <daker> Using saved push location: bzr+ssh://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/main/
[05:40] <daker> Pushed up to revision 634.
[05:40] <humphreybc> nisshh: look harder
[05:40] <godbyk> daker: ah, there it goes. done
[05:40]  * humphreybc is struggling to find stuff in chapter 3 to convert to margin notes
[05:40] <Red_HamsterX> godbyk, humphreybc, http://stellvia.uguu.ca/~flan/screencaps/data/en.zip
[05:40] <godbyk> launchpad was just being slow
[05:40] <Red_HamsterX> Are those better?
[05:41] <daker> http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/about
[05:41] <godbyk> Red_HamsterX: on the 03-ubuntu-start-firefox.png..
[05:41] <humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: better
[05:42] <godbyk> does firefox not have borders on the sides of its window?
[05:42] <Red_HamsterX> It's maximized.
[05:42] <godbyk> can we size it to be maximized, but not maximized? :)
[05:42] <godbyk> when it's printed, it looks like the elements are floating
[05:42] <Red_HamsterX> Not programmatically.
[05:42] <nisshh> all i want to know is if lubuntu uses GTK or not
[05:43] <godbyk> toolbar at the top, status bar at the bottom, and the search box in the middle.
[05:43] <Red_HamsterX> At least, not in time to meet the freeze.
[05:43] <godbyk> Red_HamsterX: fair enough.
[05:43] <humphreybc> HA! Network Manager has a space here, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Router
[05:43] <godbyk> humphreybc: nice catch.
[05:44] <godbyk> too bad it doesn't count. :)
[05:44] <humphreybc> lol
[05:46] <daker> godbyk, the last the last one pls pls pls pls
[05:46] <daker> and i'll go to sleep
[05:46] <Red_HamsterX> Hmm... I may actually be able to fake maximization in time...
[05:46] <humphreybc> I can't find any wiki docs about connecting to a wireless network
[05:46]  * Red_HamsterX hacks.
[05:46] <godbyk> daker: done
[05:46] <humphreybc> I can find some shit from 8.04 and 7.04
[05:46] <humphreybc> long story short, the wiki docs suck
[05:47] <nisshh> hehe
[05:47] <godbyk> humphreybc: I couldn't find anything current there.
[05:47] <daker> humphreybc, godbyk Red_HamsterX http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/
[05:47] <daker> check our new urls
[05:47] <nisshh> mind you they are not going to be completely current
[05:48] <godbyk> daker: great!  much nicer urls
[05:48] <Red_HamsterX> daker, this is nit-picking, but can you make thinks like '/?bugs' rewrite to '/bugs'?
[05:48] <Red_HamsterX> Just to fix any external links.
[05:49] <Red_HamsterX> things like*
[05:49] <daker> actualy going to sleep
[05:49] <godbyk> daker: we'll have to to work on the download page at some point, too.
[05:49] <Red_HamsterX> Enjoy your rest, then. :)
[05:49] <humphreybc> :P
[05:49] <humphreybc> poor daker
[05:49] <daker> godbyk, http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/download/10.04/fr/no
[05:50] <daker> version : 10.04
[05:50] <daker> lang : fr
[05:50] <daker> optimzed : no
[05:50] <Red_HamsterX> Good structure. Easy to script against.
[05:51] <godbyk> daker: get some sleep! :)
[05:51] <daker> godbyk, if you have any ideas i am here
[05:51] <humphreybc> that's looking great daker, good work. We'll work on it some more tomorrow, you go and have some rest!
[05:51] <daker> yeah its 04:51am
[05:51]  * daker is going to hibernate in 10sec
[05:52] <humphreybc> lol
[05:52] <daker> see you
[05:52] <nisshh> humphreybc: i cant find anything about lubuntu on omgubuntu
[05:52] <nisshh> freakin nothing
[05:52] <humphreybc> nisshh: there is stuff there, i'll find it for you
[05:53] <daker> nisshh, http://api.postrank.com/log?url=http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/03/lubuntu-1004-beta-1-available-to.html
[05:53] <humphreybc> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=omgubuntu+lubuntu
[05:53] <humphreybc> first few hits
[05:53] <nisshh> yea sorry lol, i just found it
[05:53] <humphreybc> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/03/lubuntu-1004-beta-1-available-to.html
[05:53] <humphreybc> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/01/lubuntu-alpha-2-gets-new-bootsplash.html
[05:54] <nisshh> humphreybc: i assume since there are some gtk apps in there that lubuntu uses gtk?
[05:55] <humphreybc> yeah i think it does
[05:55] <nisshh> i installed the lxde package in lucid and its soooooo damn fast
[05:55] <nisshh> way faster than gnome
[05:55] <humphreybc> he
[05:55] <humphreybc> heh*
[05:56] <humphreybc> Gnome is really fast for me anyway
[05:56] <humphreybc> I still have pretty decent specs even though my laptop is a couple of years old
[05:56] <nisshh> yea, but you probably have something better than a p4 right?
[05:56] <Red_HamsterX> Like what we used to expect from xfce and minimalist managers like Fluxbox?
[05:56] <humphreybc> nisshh: Core 2 Duo 2.2GHz :)
[05:56] <Red_HamsterX> Gnome's quite snappy on my P4.
[05:56] <Red_HamsterX> My 900MHz Cel, too.
[05:56] <nisshh> meh: i have celeron 3.06Ghz
[05:57] <nisshh> yea gnome runs fine for me
[05:57] <humphreybc> I've got a computer at home that's a P3 700MHz I think, in built graphics, 512MB SD Ram and it has Xubuntu on it and it's CRAP. Will have to do a fresh install of Lubuntu when I go home
[05:57] <nisshh> but the app startup time has always been lame
[05:57] <humphreybc> really? have you installed preload?
[05:57] <nisshh> preload?
[05:57] <humphreybc> look it up
[05:57] <nisshh> ok
[05:57] <humphreybc> it's cool
[05:58] <humphreybc> just google "ubuntu preload"
[05:58] <nisshh> just did
[05:58] <nisshh> does it work well?
[05:59] <humphreybc> sure does
[05:59] <IlyaHaykinson> hm, has anyone tried to approach the ubuntumanual.org person and ask to trade domains?
[05:59] <nisshh> hmmmm ill try it out then
[05:59] <nisshh> i doubt they want to
[06:00] <IlyaHaykinson> it's quite a bit out of date
[06:00] <IlyaHaykinson> they may have dropped the project, mainly
[06:00] <IlyaHaykinson> and may be willing to give it to us
[06:00] <humphreybc> hm
[06:01]  * humphreybc is bored of going through chapter 3
[06:01] <IlyaHaykinson> i mean, it still has a Karmic countdown
[06:01] <humphreybc> mm
[06:01]  * nisshh passes out with shock because of how fast preload makes his apps load
[06:01] <humphreybc> although ubuntu-manual is the name of our launchpad project name and team name and branch
[06:01] <humphreybc> we'll see
[06:01] <nisshh> firefox loaded in like 2 seconds!??!?!
[06:01] <humphreybc> the project might take on an entirely different name after UDS
[06:02] <humphreybc> nisshh: told ya
[06:02] <nisshh> hehe
[06:02] <humphreybc> it gets better over time too as it works out what you use often
[06:02] <nisshh> yea
[06:02] <nisshh> i like how it already knows about firefox
[06:02] <humphreybc> chapter 3 takes up like a 1/3 of the manual
[06:02] <nisshh> really? damn
[06:02] <IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: i would bet you US$100 that there will be a bunch of people who don't care about the dash and type the other name in
[06:03] <humphreybc> yeah i know
[06:03] <humphreybc> but as I said, the entire project might be renamed at some point
[06:03] <IlyaHaykinson> you think so? why?
[06:03] <humphreybc> because we might not just be making manuals for ubuntu
[06:03] <IlyaHaykinson> and instead for what?
[06:03] <IlyaHaykinson> OO? gnome?
[06:03] <humphreybc> we could end up making stuff for a heap of different variants of ubuntu
[06:03] <humphreybc> as well as ubuntu
[06:03] <IlyaHaykinson> sure, but those are still ubuntu
[06:04] <humphreybc> yeah, but we'll see
[06:04] <humphreybc> ;)
[06:04] <IlyaHaykinson> i mean, just because Windows 2003 is technically "Microsoft Windows Server 2003 R2" or whatnot, doesn't mean people can't call it "Windows Help"
[06:04] <nisshh> as i see it our focus will always be the ubuntu version
[06:04] <humphreybc> Ilya I know what you mean
[06:05] <nisshh> hey, ilya where have you been lately?
[06:05] <IlyaHaykinson> nisshh: Las Vegas, then Oregon
[06:05] <nisshh> havent seen you on here for ages
[06:05] <IlyaHaykinson> and at work
[06:05] <nisshh> ooh ncie
[06:05]  * godbyk is trying to decide what to do about small-caps and acronyms.
[06:05] <nisshh> nice
[06:05] <godbyk> What do you guys think? Should they be small-caps or full uppercase?
[06:05] <IlyaHaykinson> worst case, we can say "ubuntu" as in the philosophy
[06:06] <IlyaHaykinson> acronyms: recommend full uppercase
[06:06] <IlyaHaykinson> looks strange in our font, for some reason.
[06:06] <humphreybc> chapter 4 is much more fun to edit, more mistakes
[06:06] <IlyaHaykinson> also, there's a problem with 0s, in one place
[06:06] <nisshh> well small-caps breaks the glossary links for some reason
[06:06] <IlyaHaykinson> i.e. eth0
[06:06] <IlyaHaykinson> looks like etho
[06:06] <IlyaHaykinson> in the section on NetworkManager
[06:06] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: old-style figures.
[06:06] <IlyaHaykinson> but i don't know if that's fixable
[06:06] <IlyaHaykinson> right.
[06:07] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: we could make that 0 a lining figure if we wanted.
[06:07] <godbyk> but for the most part, old-style figures are nicer, I think.
[06:07] <godbyk> easier to read.
[06:07] <godbyk> and, hey, they look classy. :)
[06:07] <IlyaHaykinson> i like the old style figures in all the other places
[06:07] <IlyaHaykinson> just when it's in eth0 that it's screwy,
[06:07] <IlyaHaykinson> can we fix just for that one place?
[06:07] <godbyk> agreed.
[06:07] <godbyk> I'll see what I can do there.
[06:08] <godbyk> sure
[06:08] <IlyaHaykinson> ok. er, two or three places. but same thing.
[06:08] <IlyaHaykinson> thanks. not a giant deal if you can't fix.
[06:08] <humphreybc> godbyk can fix all
[06:08] <godbyk> I can make it all better.
[06:08] <godbyk> ...given time...
[06:08] <godbyk> ...and money...
[06:08] <IlyaHaykinson> lol
[06:08] <godbyk> :)
[06:08] <IlyaHaykinson> speaking of money...
[06:08] <IlyaHaykinson> where is ubuntu-manual.org hosted?
[06:09] <IlyaHaykinson> and who pays for it?
[06:09] <humphreybc> I bought the domain
[06:09] <humphreybc> godbyk is hosting it on his unlimited bandwidth/space server with dreamhost
[06:10] <IlyaHaykinson> ok. if need be, i can try emailing my acquaintance at dreamhost to see if i can score a free similar arrangement.
[06:10] <godbyk> well, theoretically unlimited.  if we start causing problems, they may 'suggest' we get a private server. :)
[06:10] <IlyaHaykinson> that we can get in the name of the manual.
[06:10] <godbyk> it's on dreamhost right now.
[06:10] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: free hosting huh?
[06:11] <IlyaHaykinson> no guarantees, i said i'd send an email, tis all :)
[06:11] <IlyaHaykinson> i just want to make sure that we have as many things as possible "owned" by the manual project, and not by individuals.
[06:12] <IlyaHaykinson> until such time as when we create a foundation or some other legal entity
[06:12] <IlyaHaykinson> to own things
[06:12] <godbyk> Pet peeve: Using "e.g." or "i.e." in mid-sentence without commas and outside of parentheses.
[06:12] <IlyaHaykinson> oh, yes, what is this \eg command?
[06:12] <godbyk> oh, yeah.
[06:12] <IlyaHaykinson> can we make it output ", for example " instead of "e.g."?
[06:12] <godbyk> \eg prints "e.g." in italics with a hair space between the period and the g.
[06:12] <Red_HamsterX> humphreybc, can you spare a few minutes to help me find something in a Python library?
[06:13] <godbyk> yep, we can do that, too.
[06:13] <godbyk> or kill the italics if people want to be all modern and stuff.
[06:13] <IlyaHaykinson> though that may also cause translation problems.
[06:13] <nisshh> red_hamsterx: i can help you
[06:13] <IlyaHaykinson> my main issue is that ESL people may not know what e.g. means
[06:13] <godbyk> thinking about potential translation problems makes my head hurt. :)
[06:13] <Red_HamsterX> nisshh, sure. You'll need python-wnck installed.
[06:13] <godbyk> I try to deal with them as they pop up and not think about it too much.
[06:13] <nisshh> ok hang on
[06:14] <Red_HamsterX> http://library.gnome.org/devel/libwnck/stable/WnckWindow.html#WnckWindowMoveResizeMask I'm trying to figure out where this stuff is defined.
[06:14] <humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: if nisshh can do it that'd be good, i'm busy editing :P
[06:14] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: that's fair enough, if godbyk left the project we wouldn't want all of our website and stuff to go down
[06:14] <humphreybc> but godbyk won't leave the project, will he...
[06:14] <humphreybc> :P
[06:14] <nisshh> Red_HampsterX: yep got it already
[06:14] <godbyk> lol
[06:15] <IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: yes. nothing against godbyk, i'd do it for my own stuff if i was hosting it on my server.
[06:15] <godbyk> yeah, at some point we should move the site to an independent account.  in case I get hit by a bus or something.
[06:15] <humphreybc> lol
[06:15] <humphreybc> we can take care of this sort of stuff after the first release
[06:15] <IlyaHaykinson> yes, no need to do it now.
[06:15] <godbyk> yep
[06:15] <godbyk> I'll stay inside until then. ;-)
[06:15] <nisshh> godbyk: hehe
[06:15] <humphreybc> haha
[06:15] <IlyaHaykinson> watch out for the "or something"
[06:15] <IlyaHaykinson> as well
[06:16] <Red_HamsterX> Random acts of Microsoft?
[06:16] <godbyk> actually, the website is primarily under humphreybc's control, since he owns the domain name. he can point it at different dns servers and reroute it to wherever he likes. the code is in the bzr repository, so no worries there.
[06:16] <Red_HamsterX> Exactly.
[06:16] <nisshh> very true
[06:16] <Red_HamsterX> He's the one we need to worry about.
[06:16] <humphreybc> haha
[06:16]  * humphreybc is generally a safe person
[06:17] <nisshh> humphreybc: we are watching you!
[06:17]  * humphreybc isn't planning on defecting to the docs team
[06:17] <IlyaHaykinson> i think for that we can wait till we have a foundation.
[06:17] <IlyaHaykinson> or however we handle this
[06:17] <Red_HamsterX> I think I'm still part of the docs team.
[06:17] <humphreybc> lol
[06:17] <IlyaHaykinson> if it comes to it, incorporation is cheap.
[06:17] <nisshh> unless canonical sponsors us or something
[06:17] <nisshh> endorses or whatever
[06:17] <Red_HamsterX> I wouldn't be surprised if my name's still in someone's database after five years.
[06:17] <humphreybc> well, we'll see what happens at UDS. Canonical might give us some server space.
[06:18] <IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: can you fix the spelling of my last name in the credits?
[06:18] <nisshh> ooh yea
[06:18]  * humphreybc can smell yummy food coming from the kitchen, is making me hungry
[06:18] <IlyaHaykinson> i fixed the credits chapter, but not the website
[06:18] <humphreybc> sure
[06:18] <IlyaHaykinson> thx
[06:18] <humphreybc> I have to go through and finalize all the credits around RC
[06:18] <humphreybc> at the moment they're mainly just placeholders
[06:18] <IlyaHaykinson> okie dok
[06:18] <humphreybc> so don't worry too much yet
[06:18] <nisshh> Red_HampsterX: still need my help with that python
[06:19] <Red_HamsterX> nisshh, yes, please.
[06:19] <humphreybc> okay this smells really nice, i'm off to cook my own dinner now
[06:19] <Red_HamsterX> It's just a lot of using 'dir()' to dig for those constants.
[06:19] <IlyaHaykinson> oh, i always worry, with my name. you can't imagine how often people get it wrong -- especially in pronunciation
[06:19] <nisshh> can you show your script?
[06:19] <nisshh> and explain what you want to do
[06:19] <Red_HamsterX> nisshh, there's nothing to show.
[06:19] <nisshh> oh hhee
[06:20] <Red_HamsterX> Just import wnck and start spelunking to look for those constants.
[06:20] <Red_HamsterX> They have to be somewhere.
[06:20] <Red_HamsterX> I need them so I can fax maximization.
[06:20] <Red_HamsterX> fake*
[06:20] <Red_HamsterX> So maximized windows will look a bit better in the document.
[06:21] <Red_HamsterX> Though I guess I could just pass '7' as an argument, if it comes to it.
[06:22] <Red_HamsterX> Or 9.
[06:22] <Red_HamsterX> Or whatyever the mask is.
[06:22] <Red_HamsterX> ...15
[06:22] <Red_HamsterX> I need to learn to stop failing at Binary.
[06:22] <Red_HamsterX> binary*
[06:23] <nisshh> meh
[06:27] <nisshh> im not very good with python yet
[06:27] <nisshh> still a noob
[06:27] <Red_HamsterX> Meh. It's fine.
[06:27] <Red_HamsterX> import wnck
[06:27] <Red_HamsterX> dir(wnck)
[06:27] <Red_HamsterX> Find something that looks interesting
[06:27] <nisshh> ok
[06:27] <Red_HamsterX> dir(wnck.that_thing)
[06:28] <Red_HamsterX> Repeat until you find it or give up.
[06:28] <Red_HamsterX> It doesn't look like it's going to work the way I'd hoped anyway...
[06:28] <Red_HamsterX> Or not.
[06:28] <nisshh> so this is for quickshot?
[06:28] <Red_HamsterX> It works with Totem.
[06:28] <Red_HamsterX> Yeah.
[06:28] <nisshh> ok
[06:29] <Red_HamsterX> I'm trying to make windows take up the whole screen without actually maximizing them.
[06:29] <Red_HamsterX> So they'll still have a border for the screencaps.
[06:29] <nisshh> ah i think i know
[06:29] <Red_HamsterX> It looks like Firefox forks another process, though, so I have no reliable way to track which windows it owns.
[06:30] <Red_HamsterX> It works when I hardcode 15, so don't worry too much if you can't find it.
[06:30] <nisshh> you want to just take a screenshot of that one window? instead of the whole desktop?
[06:30] <Red_HamsterX> That's how it works now.
[06:30] <Red_HamsterX> Quickshot actually works. :)
[06:30] <nisshh> right
[06:31] <Red_HamsterX> I'm just trying to get borders... LEmme grab an example.
[06:31] <nisshh> ok
[06:31] <Red_HamsterX> http://stellvia.uguu.ca/~flan/screencaps/data/03-ubuntu-start-firefox@en@1269836060.png
[06:31] <Red_HamsterX> That's Firefox, maximized.
[06:31] <Red_HamsterX> Note the lack of borders on the sides.
[06:32] <Red_HamsterX> By telling the window manager exactly what dimensions it should have, we can get the window to be exactly that big, without losing the borders.
[06:32] <nisshh> right
[06:32] <Red_HamsterX> And I think I know how to solve the tracking issue...
[06:33] <nisshh> well there is a shortcut key in ubuntu to just take a screenshot of that one window
[06:33] <Red_HamsterX> Exception case: pidof
[06:33] <Red_HamsterX> Oh, yes, but we've got that working already.
[06:33] <nisshh> so if you find the code for that then your right
[06:33] <Red_HamsterX> Window-based screencaps work fine.
[06:33] <nisshh> right
[06:33] <Red_HamsterX> http://stellvia.uguu.ca/~flan/screencaps/data/03-firefox-preferences@en@1269837322.png
[06:33] <nisshh> its just the maximized ones
[06:33] <Red_HamsterX> Well... No.
[06:34] <Red_HamsterX> The problem is that maximizing kills the borders.
[06:34] <Red_HamsterX> When they appear in the document, they seem to be floating.
[06:34] <Red_HamsterX> 'Cause it's white on white.
[06:34] <nisshh> ah right
[06:34] <nisshh> why not use latex to add a border or something
[06:34] <nisshh> like 1px black or something
[06:34] <Red_HamsterX> Not all windows need it, so it looks ugly.
[06:35] <Red_HamsterX> Unless we tag the specific images...
[06:35] <nisshh> yea, or you can just take no screenshots of maximized apps
[06:35] <Red_HamsterX> That causes problems of its own, unfortunately.
[06:35] <nisshh> how so?
[06:35] <Red_HamsterX> Since we're running at 1024x768.
[06:35] <Red_HamsterX> So things would be cramped in some cases.
[06:36] <Red_HamsterX> We also need consistency across all languages.
[06:36] <nisshh> what if its in windowed mode but almost the same size as max?
[06:36] <nisshh> yea
[06:36] <Red_HamsterX> That's what the ENUMs I've asked you to find will do.
[06:37] <nisshh> ENUM?
[06:37] <Red_HamsterX> (Which, as mentioned, I can hack around by hardcoding 15)
[06:37] <Red_HamsterX> Enumeration.
[06:37] <nisshh> right
[06:37] <Red_HamsterX> Integer constants with symbolic names, usually.
[06:37] <Red_HamsterX> In this case, 1, 2, 4, 8
[06:37] <Red_HamsterX> Added together, they make 15.
[06:38] <nisshh> right
[06:38] <Red_HamsterX> But they could change, so having the names would be nice.
[06:38] <nisshh> dir(wnck.WindowType)
[06:39] <nisshh> under there is __enum_values__
[06:39] <Red_HamsterX> I don't see--
[06:39] <Red_HamsterX> Hmm...
[06:39] <Red_HamsterX> No, that;s a list of types.
[06:39] <Red_HamsterX> Good eye, though.
[06:39] <nisshh> right lol
[06:40] <nisshh> what exactly am i looking for?
[06:40] <Red_HamsterX> Type it without the dir() and you can see what's inside.
[06:40] <Red_HamsterX> http://library.gnome.org/devel/libwnck/stable/WnckWindow.html#WnckWindowMoveResizeMask
[06:40] <Red_HamsterX> Any of those names.
[06:40] <Red_HamsterX> WINDOW_CHANGE_X
[06:40] <Red_HamsterX> I don't know why they don't seem to be there.
[06:40] <Red_HamsterX> It's possible that the maintainers forgot to add them to the Python bindings altogether.
[06:41] <Red_HamsterX> So you may be looking for nothing.
[06:42] <nisshh> yea
[06:42] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: I foxed your eth0 stuff.
[06:44] <IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: WOOT! thanks
[06:44] <nisshh> godbyk: have you decided about the small-caps?
[06:44] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: The quick workaround is to typeset the 0 in math mode, so just surround it by $:  eth$0$.
[06:44] <nisshh> it really needs to be one or the other
[06:45] <godbyk> I haven't decided yet.
[06:45] <godbyk> I'm reading through the manual right now and will keep an out for them to see how they look.
[06:45] <godbyk> Having acronyms littering the text so heavily makes it a pain to read.
[06:45] <godbyk> Generally small caps helps there.
[06:45] <godbyk> But they bring problems, too.
[06:46] <godbyk> Like plural acronyms.  Sometimes the lowercase 's' adjacent to the small caps doesn't work so well.
[06:46] <godbyk> Sometimes the use of small caps leads to inconsistencies, too.
[06:46] <IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: thank you for the quick fix.
[06:46] <godbyk> I'm also going to center the screenshots and see how that looks now.
[06:47] <godbyk> the right-align bit isn't working so well for me.
[06:47] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: no problem. don't abuse it, or I'll have to slap you around! :)
[06:47] <IlyaHaykinson> argh.
[06:47] <IlyaHaykinson> yes sir
[06:48] <godbyk> gah.. must fix ugly, ugly spacing around warning/advanced icons.
[06:48] <godbyk> but I think I'll hold off on that 'til after the writing freeze.
[06:48] <godbyk> (as it won't affect the translators)
[06:48] <godbyk> we really need to work on the index at some point, too.
[06:49] <godbyk> would you have any time this week to help with that, IlyaHaykinson?
[06:49] <godbyk> I think we may be able to do that after the writing freeze as it won't (directly) impact the translations.
[06:49] <IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: not sure yet. you mean mainly tagging indexable items, to ensure that they appear in the index?
[06:50] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: yeah.
[06:50] <IlyaHaykinson> what tags do we have besides the two application ones?
[06:50] <godbyk> we need to establish some guidelines as to what should be indexed and how.
[06:50] <IlyaHaykinson> good point.
[06:50] <godbyk> (e.g., head words should be nouns or noun phrases, when do we cross-ref [see, see also], etc.)
[06:50] <godbyk> right now that's about it, I think.
[06:51] <IlyaHaykinson> well, what else would you expect in an index?
[06:51] <nisshh> godbyk: where did you put those TODO items for the glossary?
[06:51] <nisshh> you said you were adding some yesterday
[06:51] <godbyk> nisshh: right after the table of contents, there's a list of TODOs.  I made the glossary ones a different color.
[06:52] <nisshh> ok thanks
[06:53] <godbyk> I think I might write a \variable{} command (or similar) to format placeholder text.
[06:53] <godbyk> like "Editing <i>connection name</i>" would be "Editing \variable{connection name}" and format nicely.
[06:53] <godbyk> that way all the placeholder text is the same format.
[06:53] <godbyk> right now it's kinda all over the place.
[06:53] <IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: good idea
[06:54] <IlyaHaykinson> for the index, we probably need something like \term{}
[06:55] <IlyaHaykinson> and maybe \term[category]{}
[06:55] <nisshh> godbyk: where is the table of contents in the branch?
[06:55] <IlyaHaykinson> so our current \application{} would be equivalent to \term[applications]{}
[06:58] <godbyk> nisshh: I mean if you look at the PDF, there's a list in the PDF after the toc.
[06:58] <nisshh> oh, crap silly me
[06:58] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: The index commands are relatively simple, but the look scary.
[06:58] <nisshh> yea found it now
[06:59] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: The simplest case, to add an item to the index it: \index{index entry name}
[06:59] <godbyk> But you can also index something as a subentry.
[07:00] <IlyaHaykinson> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/LaTeX/Indexing#Sophisticated_Indexing
[07:00] <IlyaHaykinson> i see
[07:00] <godbyk> And you can have begin/end for an index item.. to encompass, say, a section that deals with NetworkManager.  Then it'll automatically say, "NetworkManager 45--52"
[07:00] <godbyk> yeah
[07:01] <godbyk> what should this variable/placeholder command be named?
[07:01] <IlyaHaykinson> \sampletext{}?
[07:01] <IlyaHaykinson> \forexample{}?
[07:01]  * godbyk still needs to finalize the formatting of all these things so he can write the nomenclature section.
[07:02] <IlyaHaykinson> \userspecific{}?
[07:02] <IlyaHaykinson> \situational{}?
[07:03] <godbyk> I may be able to call it \variable. Let me look.
[07:08] <nisshh> i just noticed the amount of TODO's for my chapter, do you guys want me to fix them or should i leave it to the three supereditors?
[07:38] <Red_HamsterX> godbyk, http://stellvia.uguu.ca/~flan/screencaps/get_latest.php?language=en&name=03-ubuntu-start-firefox
[07:38] <godbyk> Red_HamsterX: Perfect!
[07:38] <Red_HamsterX> I think I've worked out all applicalbe bugs.
[07:38] <Red_HamsterX> Except for one...
[07:39] <Red_HamsterX> I need to reduce height yb one pixel.
[07:39] <Red_HamsterX> But that's trivial
[07:48] <artnay> btw, http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/03/26/gothic_not_arial_do_it_for_gaia/
[07:48]  * IlyaHaykinson going offline now; a bit more work then sleep. gnite all!
[08:10] <Red_HamsterX> Quickshot reference screencaps and descriptions updated. EtherPad updated. Me asleep.
[08:12] <Red_HamsterX> http://kotaku.com/5504123/ps3-loses-linux-support My PPC build platform! No!
[08:12]  * Red_HamsterX cries.
[08:13] <humphreybc> that's a bit evil of SOny
[08:13] <humphreybc> Sony*
[08:13] <Red_HamsterX> Very.
[08:13] <Red_HamsterX> I rely on that thing.
[08:13] <Red_HamsterX> Heck, it's one of the reasons I bought it.
[08:14] <humphreybc> maybe just don't firmware upgrade it?
[08:14] <Red_HamsterX> Then I wouldn't be able to play anything that comes out this summer...
[08:14] <Red_HamsterX> I'll need to find a new, cheap PPC system...
[08:14] <humphreybc> :(
[08:15] <Red_HamsterX> Maybe an old iMac.
[08:17] <humphreybc> with 8 cores
[08:17] <humphreybc> :P
[08:17] <Red_HamsterX> Seven.
[08:17] <Red_HamsterX> One of which is locked to prevent access to the rest of the system.
[08:17] <humphreybc> i always get that wrong
[08:17]  * Red_HamsterX wants RSX access. :(
[08:17] <humphreybc> what has the CPU got to do with file system access?
[08:23] <Red_HamsterX> It locks everything.
[08:23] <Red_HamsterX> Primarily focused on hardware.
[08:24] <humphreybc> right
[08:26] <humphreybc> chapter 4 is riddled with errors
[08:28] <humphreybc> godbyk how's that nomenclature coming along?
[08:28] <godbyk> Waiting to settle on some of the formatting.
[08:28] <humphreybc> kk
[08:28] <godbyk> I think we have too much bold text in our manual.
[08:28] <humphreybc> i concur
[08:29] <godbyk> I'm going to see what some other books do.
[08:32] <humphreybc> this is just one page of chapter 4
[08:32] <humphreybc> http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/4472824658/sizes/o/
[08:35] <godbyk> that's how the pages from the first couple chapters looked when I was doing it on paper.
[08:39] <humphreybc> do you guys spell it grayscale or greyscale in the US?
[08:39] <godbyk> grayscale.
[08:39] <humphreybc> okay
[08:39] <godbyk> (I personally prefer grey to gray, but I'm outvoted on this continent.)
[08:39] <humphreybc> lol
[08:40] <godbyk> I've seen a fiew -ise scattered about and they are usually -ize here, too.
[08:41] <humphreybc> right
[08:41] <humphreybc> who wrote chapter 4??
[08:42] <godbyk> not it!
[08:44] <godbyk> wow.. looking at the author credits for chapter 4, I'm apparently the only person who *hasn't* written it!
[08:44] <humphreybc> er, yeah
[08:44] <humphreybc> it's a mess
[08:51] <humphreybc> chap 4 is gonna be rockin the margin notes when i'm done
[08:52] <ubuntujenkins> morning all
[08:53] <humphreybc> hey Luke
[08:54] <ubuntujenkins> hey ben how are we doing?
[08:55] <humphreybc> not too bad.. just editing chapter 4. about a zillion errors. http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/4472824658/sizes/o/
[08:55] <ubuntujenkins> nice not too many there :P
[08:56] <humphreybc> O.o
[08:58] <humphreybc> wtf
[08:59] <humphreybc> what the hell
[08:59] <humphreybc> there is a section in chapter 4 called "USB drives"
[08:59] <humphreybc> it talks about Burning CDs and DVDs
[08:59] <humphreybc> ?
[08:59] <humphreybc> ohh
[08:59] <humphreybc> wat
[08:59] <humphreybc> wait*
[09:00] <humphreybc> I see, that whole section is missing... it's just the header
[09:00] <humphreybc> sigh
[09:00] <ubuntujenkins> talking of missing have you heard from mattgriffin?
[09:00] <humphreybc> yeah, he's given us our stuff
[09:00] <humphreybc> it's in the manual :)
[09:01] <ubuntujenkins> ubuntu one/
[09:01] <ubuntujenkins> ?
[09:01] <humphreybc> ah
[09:01] <humphreybc> I think that's coming
[09:01] <humphreybc> I'll get in touch with him soon
[09:02] <ubuntujenkins> its been coming for two months, I need to know what screenshots he would like then i can see if they are nessicary
[09:02] <ubuntujenkins> I have chased him the other day not seen him since
[09:02] <humphreybc> right
[09:02] <humphreybc> he's not on IRC at the moment
[09:02] <humphreybc> but next time he's on I'll grab him
[09:03] <ubuntujenkins> thank you
[09:42] <godbyk> yay! manualbot's here!
[09:42] <humphreybc> lol
[09:43] <humphreybc> he's quite unreliable
[09:45] <humphreybc> godbyk, what is the syntax for menus?
[09:45] <humphreybc> you know, with the little arrow
[09:45] <godbyk> \menu{Blah\then Blah}
[09:45] <humphreybc> thanks
[09:45] <godbyk> we should teach manualbot that sort of thing. :)
[09:54] <ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX: whats broken with the change resolution stuff?
[10:08] <humphreybc> hey mpt
[10:08] <humphreybc> godbyk, mpt is wondering why we are mentioning NetworkManager at all
[10:08] <ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX: I think i have fixed it
[10:09] <jaminday> humphreybc: yeah i wondered that too - it's pretty technical for a beginner!
[10:10] <ubuntujenkins> but they have to be able to get onto the internet
[10:10] <godbyk> I'm not sure. I haven't actually read that chapter yet.
[10:11] <godbyk> Should we be mentioning something else instead? Or just assume that NetworkManager will perform its magic successfully and not mention it at all?
[10:12] <jaminday> yeah - for most people (with wired connection) it should just work. If it doesn't, won't they probably need more assistance than what we are providing?
[10:13] <humphreybc> godbyk, the section is quite large
[10:13] <humphreybc> we can't just cut it
[10:13] <mpt> godbyk, jaminday, it's not that it's technical, it's that you don't need to name it specifically. It's just the network menu in Ubuntu.
[10:13] <jaminday> Ah ok - gotcha
[10:13] <humphreybc> We need to refer to it and mention the name so when people look for more help online they'll be able to type something in the search
[10:13] <godbyk> mpt: Ah, I see what you're saying.
[10:13] <humphreybc> typing "NetworkManager" into google or UF forums will bring back more relevant hits than typing "Ubuntu networking"
[10:14] <mpt> Just like you don't need to refer to "gnome-panel" by name anywhere (at least, I hope you don't).
[10:14] <humphreybc> in theory, anyway
[10:14] <godbyk> mpt: Is there a list of naming conventions for those elements?
[10:14] <godbyk> We had a question the other day as to what to call the fast-user-switching-applet (or shutdown applet or whatever it is now).
[10:14] <mpt> That's the session menu <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SessionMenu>
[10:14] <humphreybc> mpt, no, but we call them "Panels"
[10:15] <mpt> right
[10:15] <godbyk> humphreybc: It would be better to direct our readers straight to the good sources of information if they need help troubleshooting or want more info instead of having them Google things.
[10:15] <jaminday> godbyk: I have been calling it the Session Indicator applet but session menu sounds much friendlier
[10:15] <humphreybc> godbyk, yeah I know, that would be ideal but unsurprisingly the docs on networking/connecting to wireless date back to 7.04
[10:16] <godbyk> I like 'session menu'.  Thanks!  Is there a list of terms anywhere?
[10:17] <jaminday> godbyk: is there a quick way to do a find-replace to change all mentions of 'Session Indicator applet' to 'session menu'
[10:18] <godbyk> jaminday: not a guaranteed way.  your best bet is to grep and replace manually.
[10:18] <jaminday> ok. I might get Rudi onto it.
[10:19] <godbyk> I'll make a note for our nascent style guide.
[10:20] <jaminday> On a related note, i think we need some consensus on when to capitalize names of elements. E.g. should it be 'session menu' or 'Session Menu'. There are heaps of inconsistencies around this issue.
[10:21] <jaminday> And how often should the \application or \button commands be used - every time it's mentioned or just the first?
[10:21] <jaminday> etc
[10:22] <godbyk> \application and \button should be used each time you refer to the application or button.
[10:22] <godbyk> They're designed to provide some semantic formatting (that I can adjust on a whim in a couple days).
[10:23] <jaminday> ok that's good to know
[10:24] <jaminday> I might get Rudi to have a look at that as well then - make sure they are consistent across all chapters
[10:25] <jaminday> godbyk: should we be using \window as well?
[10:25]  * godbyk feels sorry for Rudi!
[10:25] <godbyk> jaminday: Yes, for the window titles/captions.
[10:25] <jaminday> hehe - he offered! Big mistake...
[10:26] <jaminday> godbyk: ok great. Any others? We've got \application \button \window \menu
[10:26] <godbyk> If there are UI elements I'm missing names for, let me know and I'll add a command.
[10:26] <jaminday> \textfield?
[10:28] <godbyk> jaminday: if you look in the Help/godbyk/latex-handout/ dir, you can build that pdf (just run make from that dir), and see chapter 3 for a list.
[10:28] <jaminday> godbyk: ah ok fantastic - excuse my ignorance but i didn't know that existed
[10:30] <godbyk> no problem. that's why I mentioned it. :)
[10:30] <godbyk> (trying to get the word out.)
[10:30] <jaminday> yeah that will be a big help
[10:30] <godbyk> that would be the aforementioned nascent style guide.
[10:30] <jaminday> right
[10:36] <jaminday> godbyk: install-pkgs.sh keeps telling me that 'executable file xindy...not found'
[10:37] <godbyk> jaminday: what does 'which xindy' return?
[10:38] <jaminday> nothing... do i need something in front?
[10:38] <godbyk> nope
[10:38] <jaminday> yeah doesn't return any output
[10:38] <godbyk> sounds like you don't have xindy installed. the install-pkgs.sh script should try to install it for you.
[10:39] <jaminday> yeah - it does, then says 'Required Ubuntu packages are already installed. Done! You should now be able to compile the Ubuntu manual!'
[10:39] <jaminday> but then run install-pkgs again and it still can't find it
[10:39]  * ubuntujenkins updating a ppa is confusing
[10:40] <jaminday> godbyk: perhaps it's not an issue?
[10:40] <godbyk> jaminday: can you email the install-pkgs.log file to me at kevin@ubuntu-manual.org?
[10:40] <godbyk> I'll take a look at it.
[10:40] <godbyk> in the meantime, you can install xindy manually: sudo tlmgr install xindy
[10:41] <jaminday> godbyk: ok i'll do that. I am getting lots of errors running make in the Help dir so wondering if that's why.
[10:42] <godbyk> I just recompiled it, and it worked okay for me, so I assume the .tex file is fine.
[10:45] <jaminday> godbyk: ok email sent
[10:45] <jaminday> i'll try install xindy manually
[10:47] <jaminday> godbyk: i tried sudo tlmgr install xindy but getting same problem when i run ./install-pkgs.sh
[10:47] <godbyk> jaminday: I think it hasn't created the symlink to xindy, so install-pkgs.sh can't find it.
[10:47] <godbyk> We can fix that, though.
[10:47] <godbyk> Run 'sudo apt-get install perl-tk'
[10:48] <godbyk> Then 'sudo tlmgr --gui'
[10:48] <jaminday> ok - installing perl-tk now...
[10:48] <godbyk> From the Actions menu, choose 'Handle symlinks in system dirs'
[10:48] <godbyk> In the dialog that appears, click the 'Update symbolic links' button, then OK.
[10:49] <godbyk> Finally, you can exit the tlmgr program and run the install-pkgs.sh script again.
[10:49] <jaminday> ooh (not so) pretty GUI!
[10:49] <godbyk> Let me know if you hit any snags.
[10:49] <godbyk> Heh.. yeah, gotta love that Tk widget set!
[10:49]  * jaminday is following godbyk's instructions like a muffin recipe
[10:50] <humphreybc> lol
[10:50]  * humphreybc likes muffins
[10:50]  * jaminday thinks godbyk is a freakin' genuis
[10:51] <jaminday> *genius
[10:51] <jaminday> hehe
[10:51] <godbyk> I'm renowned for my easy-to-follow, step-by-step instructions. :-)
[10:51]  * ubuntujenkins has banana muffins here
[10:51] <jaminday> hehe
[10:51] <jaminday> muffins all round for everyone!
[10:52] <jaminday> godbyk: hmm - still getting errors compiling latex-handout
[10:53] <jaminday> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/716997/latex-handout.log
[10:53] <jaminday> although you did fix my xindy problem!
[10:53] <godbyk> jaminday: ah, I'm using a few packages there that aren't installed by install-pkgs.sh, apparently.
[10:54] <godbyk> jaminday: sudo tlmgr install lipsum
[10:54] <godbyk> (it's not used; I'll fix the tex file soon)
[10:54] <godbyk> also: sudo tlmgr install hyphenat
[10:54] <godbyk> then see if it still complains.
[10:55] <jaminday> ok one sec
[10:57] <jaminday> godbyk: ok we are getting closer - just one error this time. New log file...
[10:57] <jaminday> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/716997/latex-handout.log
[10:58] <godbyk> jaminday: that's weird.
[10:58] <godbyk> hold on
[10:58] <jaminday> no worries
[10:58] <jaminday> i'm making you earn your UMP salary tonight!
[10:58] <godbyk> Ha!
[10:59] <godbyk> What does 'kpsewhich tufte-common.def' return?
[11:30] <jaminday> godbyk: sorry - i'm back
[11:30] <godbyk> jaminday: no worries.
[11:31] <jaminday> /usr/local/texlive/2009/texmf-dist/tex/latex/tufte-latex/tufte-common.def
[11:31] <godbyk> aha.
[11:31] <godbyk> that's probably the problem then.
[11:31] <godbyk> It's using an older version of that file than what I'm using.
[11:31] <jaminday> ah ok
[11:31] <godbyk> one sec and I'll have that fixed for ya.
[11:32] <jaminday> great
[11:33] <godbyk> jaminday: okay, I've added symlinks. if you bzr pull and run make again, that should (hopefully) fix it.
[11:35] <jaminday> ok, i'm going in...
[11:35] <godbyk> k
[11:41] <jaminday> godbyk: ok, make ran smoothly that time
[11:41] <godbyk> awesome.
[11:41] <godbyk> good to hear!
[11:41] <godbyk> (I was running out of ideas. :-))
[11:41] <jaminday> fantastic - thanks for the help
[11:41] <jaminday> hehe
[11:41] <jaminday> i knew you could do it!
[11:42] <godbyk> heh
[11:42] <godbyk> so *anyway*.. in there, you'll find a list of the GUI-related commands.
[11:42] <jaminday> great - i'll check it out
[11:47] <meho_r> Hi all. godbyk, humphreybc, would you accept reviewed .pdf file with highlights and comments or only bug reports count?
[11:47] <godbyk> meho_r: Sure!
[11:47] <godbyk> at this point we'll take about anything. :)
[11:47] <humphreybc> ;P
[11:48] <godbyk> How big is the marked-up PDF?
[11:48] <meho_r> Don't think it'll be much bigger
[11:48] <meho_r> And I don't have it now :)
[11:49] <godbyk> Ah, okay.
[11:49] <meho_r> Will take a look in these two days to search for anything
[11:49] <meho_r> and I'll upload it on Dropbox or somewhere and give you the link.
[11:50] <godbyk> If you'd like you can email the PDF (when you've finished marking it) to kevin, benjamin, or jamin @ubuntu-manual.org and we can incorporate your suggestions.
[11:50] <godbyk> (I don't want you to send it to the mailing list and spam the subscribers with a multi-megabyte attachment.) :-)
[11:50] <meho_r> hehe, no problem.
[11:50] <godbyk> Or if you can't email the PDF for some reason, let me know and we'll find another way to receive it.
[11:51] <godbyk> Yeah, dropbox will work great, too.
[11:51] <meho_r> Deadline is 31.03?
[11:51] <meho_r> What after that?
[11:52] <jaminday> meho_r: the world explodes
[11:52] <godbyk> meho_r: Then the translators take over and do their thing.
[11:52] <jaminday> ;-)
[11:52] <meho_r> lol :D
[11:52] <meho_r> OK. I'll try to finish before the big bang :D
[11:53] <godbyk> good idea.
[11:53] <godbyk> you can give it to us piecemeal, too.
[11:53] <godbyk> just upload a fresh copy every few pages or after each chapter or something.
[11:53] <meho_r> Yeah, per chapter maybe
[11:54] <fenre> so you guys used 3-4 months to write this thing, and now we get to rewrite it in 2 weeks? Or how long do we have? :P
[11:54] <godbyk> fenre: Heh.. something like that!
[11:54] <fenre> nice :)
[11:55] <godbyk> The content freeze was to be a couple weeks ago.
[11:55] <godbyk> Then we'd have a couple weeks to edit.
[11:55] <godbyk> And then we'd have the writing freeze so that the translators could get caught up.
[11:55] <godbyk> But I think some new content has been leaking in post-content freeze.
[11:55] <meho_r> btw, should I get .pdf from ubuntu-manual.org or maybe you have some more recent version you want me to work on?
[11:56] <meho_r> this one is from 27.
[11:56] <fenre> good thing we have easter vacation
[11:56] <godbyk> meho_r: give me a couple minutes and I'll post the latest pdf to the website for ya.
[11:56] <jaminday> meho_r: I think we have been uploading the latest revision to ubuntu-manual.org once per day
[11:57] <meho_r> godbyk, OK, just ping me when you're done :)
[12:01] <godbyk> meho_r: Okay, latest revision, just for you!  http://ubuntu-manual.org/ubuntu-manual-draft.pdf
[12:03] <meho_r> godbyk, OK, thanks. See you guys tonight
[12:03] <godbyk> meho_r: have fun!
[12:03] <meho_r> ;)
[12:41] <humphreybc> hi everyone! could you'll do me a favour and go here, vote the LN team up :)
[12:41] <humphreybc> http://www.makeitso.online-comms.com.au/ch/25233/2dw3zwz/1134764/a74c5y8jg.html
[12:47] <artnay> hey, what about the title on the first page? currently, when translated, the text size is too large to fit on a page
[12:49] <godbyk> artnay: Don't fret about that. The title page is temporary and I'll make sure the text fits in the end.
[12:49] <artnay> will the title be automatically resized?
[12:50] <godbyk> It will be resized or wrapped.
[13:01] <humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: SUCCESS!
[13:02] <humphreybc> oh wait
[13:02] <ubuntujenkins> humphreybc: with what?
[13:02] <humphreybc> the PPA build?
[13:02] <humphreybc> I got an email
[13:02] <ubuntujenkins> if you mean the ppa the build failed
[13:02] <humphreybc> :(
[13:02] <godbyk> lol
[13:02] <ubuntujenkins> not lol
[13:02] <ubuntujenkins> trying again
[13:03] <godbyk> ubuntujenkins: humphreybc screwed up. he meant the opposite of success.  what was it again?  oh, yeah: FAILURE!
[13:03] <godbyk> :-)
[13:03] <humphreybc> hey daker's back and working on the site
[13:03] <humphreybc> yay
[13:04] <ubuntujenkins> I have a feeling the latest upload will be rejected
[13:04] <daker> humphreybc, hi ;)
[13:04] <humphreybc> hey daker!
[13:05] <ubuntujenkins> hello daker
[13:06] <daker> godbyk, turned on the sync pls
[13:06] <daker> :)
[13:07] <ubuntujenkins> daker can you do me a couple of buttons for the wiki please
[13:07] <humphreybc> haha, and it starts again :P
[13:07] <godbyk> daker: synced.
[13:08] <daker> humphreybc, http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved
[13:09] <godbyk> daker: I'm going to sleep soon, but I set the website to sync every 10 minutes instead of every 30 minutes, since you're working on it right now.
[13:09] <daker> oki
[13:09] <daker> thanks a lot
[13:10] <jaminday> daker: you want info on spelling mistakes etc now or leave that stuff till later?
[13:10] <daker> if you could now jaminday
[13:10] <humphreybc> looking good daker
[13:10] <daker> jaminday, its CC from th wiki :)
[13:10] <jaminday> ah ok
[13:11] <daker> Copy paste
[13:11] <jaminday> only one i just saw - bryan behrenhausen (on contributors page) is spelt brayn
[13:11]  * ubuntujenkins the build failed again
[13:12] <godbyk> Don't forget to fix Ilya's name if you haven't already. He asked about it earlier.
[13:12] <humphreybc> Yeah
[13:12] <humphreybc> should be "Ilya Haykinson"
[13:12] <humphreybc> I think
[13:12] <jaminday> ah yes that's true too
[13:13] <daker> jaminday, like that "Bryan Behrenhausen" ?
[13:13] <godbyk> Okay, guys. I'm off to bed.
[13:13] <jaminday> daker: yep
[13:13] <jaminday> godbyk: he does sleep!
[13:13] <daker> that's your name ?
[13:13] <humphreybc> lol
[13:13] <godbyk> jaminday: Shh!
[13:13] <jaminday> daker: nope not me, i'm Jamin Day
[13:14] <humphreybc> daker: that's Bryan's name
[13:14] <daker> jaminday, ah sorry
[13:14] <jaminday> Well if godbyk is going, I should head off too before this whole room falls apart
[13:14] <humphreybc> yeah
[13:14] <humphreybc> i should get some sleep too
[13:14] <jaminday> daker: no problem!
[13:15] <daker> humphreybc, any other  spelling mistakes on the contributors page ?
[13:15] <jaminday> well, night all and talk soon!
[13:15] <humphreybc> daker, i don't think so
[13:15] <humphreybc> the list of names will change though
[13:16] <daker> kk
[13:23]  * dutchie pokes godbyk with "bzr commit --fixes"
[13:23] <humphreybc> dutchie: you're still alive
[13:23] <godbyk-android2> du
[13:23] <humphreybc> why aren't you helping us edit? :P
[13:23] <godbyk-android2> gah
[13:23] <dutchie> I'm busy :P
[13:24] <dutchie> though I am now on holiday
[13:24] <humphreybc> ..
[13:24] <ubuntujenkins> daker: any chance of some buttons for the wiki?
[13:24] <humphreybc> dutchie: get to work then slacker
[13:24] <humphreybc> :P
[13:24] <godbyk-android2> dutchie: what about bzr?
[13:24] <dutchie> the --fixes option
[13:25] <daker> ubuntujenkins, what ?
[13:25] <dutchie> if you use that when you commit, LP automatically closes the bug
[13:25] <ubuntujenkins> "Get Quickshot" "File A Bug" "About Quickshot" would be nice please
[13:25] <godbyk-android2> Ah, cool. I'll have to take a look at that.
[13:28] <humphreybc> ha!
[13:28] <humphreybc> we have more bzr revisions than ubuntu-docs
[13:29] <ubuntujenkins> lol
[13:29] <humphreybc> just for lucid though
[13:29] <ubuntujenkins> still thats good
[13:29] <humphreybc> they're on 498
[13:30] <daker> ubuntujenkins, ??!!!
[13:30] <humphreybc> we're up to like 600 and something
[13:30] <ubuntujenkins> daker "Get Quickshot" "File A Bug" "About Quickshot" would be nice please
[13:30] <daker> buttons ?
[13:31] <daker> yeah sure
[13:31] <ubuntujenkins> sorry like the ones on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/contributions
[13:31] <humphreybc> daker: how do you make them, out of interest?
[13:31] <daker> css
[13:32] <humphreybc> you're so hardcore
[13:32] <humphreybc> can you make them light up when you roll over them?
[13:32] <daker> humphreybc, http://papermashup.com/pretty-css3-buttons/
[13:33] <daker> with webkit effects http://www.zurb.com/playground/radioactive-buttons
[13:33] <daker> the same
[13:33] <humphreybc> oh neat
[13:33] <ubuntujenkins> thanks daker if you can send them to luke@ubuntu-manual.org please
[13:33] <daker> sure ubuntujenkins
[13:34] <humphreybc> daker: you should make them glow when you roll over them or maybe just get brighter
[13:34] <daker> humphreybc, i'll do
[13:34] <humphreybc> :D
[13:34] <humphreybc> you're a legend daker
[13:35] <humphreybc> I've never had such a willing web developer! haha
[13:35] <daker> i don't have dog :p
[13:35] <humphreybc> btw, Ivanka from the design team told me today that it worked in her blackberry browser
[13:35] <humphreybc> and it works in my android browser
[13:36] <daker> GREAT
[13:36] <daker> the slideshow too ?
[13:37] <humphreybc> sort of, the phone couldn't handle it too well and it was a bit laggy
[13:37] <humphreybc> but it did work
[13:37] <daker> oki
[13:38] <ubuntujenkins> where can i see the slide show?
[13:38] <daker> test.ubuntu-manual.org
[13:38] <daker> the images on the page will slide
[13:38] <ubuntujenkins> nice i like it,
[13:41] <daker> lol
[13:42] <daker> humphreybc, http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0480249/
[13:42] <daker> but i don't have a dog
[13:47] <daker> humphreybc, Authors and Editors page are the same
[13:47] <daker> ?
[13:50] <humphreybc> sorry
[13:50] <humphreybc> yes they are
[13:51] <humphreybc> they should point to the same page :)
[13:51] <daker> ok
[14:13] <ubuntujenkins> humphreybc: the ppa works now
[14:14] <humphreybc> yay!
[14:14] <humphreybc> amd64 too?
[14:14] <daker> ubuntujenkins, where ?
[14:15] <ubuntujenkins> well it installs on amd64 using synaptic it only produces a all.deb
[14:16] <ubuntujenkins> daker https://edge.launchpad.net/~quickshotdevs/+archive/quickshot-daily
[14:16] <ubuntujenkins> it is the daily ppa the only one we have at the moment
[14:16] <humphreybc> oh neat :D
[14:18] <ubuntujenkins> a release ppa will be done
[14:18] <humphreybc> :)
[14:27] <jbicha> howdy
[14:28] <jbicha> so, I'm looking at page 15 and am wondering why the screenshots are so fuzzy, the text isn't very readable
[14:29] <humphreybc> hi jbicha
[14:29] <humphreybc> what viewer are you using?
[14:29] <jbicha> evince
[14:30] <humphreybc> the text shouldn't be fuzzy
[14:30] <humphreybc> but the screenshots might be sort of jagged, that's evinces fault
[14:30] <humphreybc> are you on karmic? you can try installing acroread
[14:30] <jbicha> I'm on lucid, let me try okular
[14:31] <humphreybc> okay
[14:31] <humphreybc> acroread isn't pacakged for lucid yet :(
[14:32] <jbicha> I've not used acroread on Linux in years :-)
[14:32] <jbicha> 2 years maybe
[14:32] <humphreybc> heh
[14:32] <humphreybc> anyway, the text/images aren't blurry when printed
[14:33] <humphreybc> and you're the first person to report the text being blurry
[14:33] <humphreybc> the images in evince we've known about for ages
[14:34] <jbicha> when I said text, I meant text in the screenshot
[14:35] <jbicha> yeah, it looks better in okular but since evince is default...
[14:35] <jbicha> it's kinda too bad
[14:36] <jbicha> on another topic, I'm happy that the suggestions I put in the little Google Docs form thing got included
[14:36] <jbicha> it's magical
[14:36] <humphreybc> heh
[14:36] <humphreybc> which one was that?
[14:36] <humphreybc> (yeah we're cool like that btw)
[14:37] <jbicha> aptitude instead of apt-get and if you're going to mention sudo, mention gksu too
[14:37] <humphreybc> ah yes
[14:37] <humphreybc> I changed the aptitude one myself actually
[14:38] <humphreybc> bad news though, it might be going back to apt-get. The Ubuntu and GNOME style guides recommend apt-get, Debian recommends aptitude. Sigh.
[14:38] <jbicha> haha
[14:38] <humphreybc> because we're an Ubuntu manual we'll probably have to follow the ubuntu style guide
[14:38] <humphreybc> but we'll see
[14:38] <humphreybc> I personally use both... whatever I end up typing
[14:38] <humphreybc> aptitude resolves dependencies nicer and removes stuff better...
[14:39] <humphreybc> I think we reported a bug in evince for the crappy screenshots
[14:39] <jbicha> I've been using Ubuntu since 2006 so I mostly learned aptitude instead of apt-get
[14:39] <humphreybc> true
[14:39] <humphreybc> might see if I can get an evince dev to fix it before final so our manual looks pretty in Ubuntu
[14:40] <ubuntujenkins> is there a but we can +1 to?
[14:40] <ubuntujenkins> *bug
[14:40] <humphreybc> not sure
[14:41] <humphreybc> maybes one of these
[14:41] <humphreybc> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/poppler/+bug/26118
[14:41] <humphreybc> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/poppler/+bug/248355
[14:41] <manualbot> Launchpad bug 26118 in poppler "Bad rendering (hinting) in Evince and Xpdf" [Unknown,Confirmed]
[14:41] <manualbot> Launchpad bug 248355 in poppler "Evince doesn't anti-alias graphics" [Low,Fix committed]
[14:41] <humphreybc> looks like it might be fixed in Lucid
[14:42] <humphreybc> looking at the screenshots of 248355 and I think it is the same as ours
[14:43] <ubuntujenkins> lets hope its fixed
[14:44] <jbicha> poppler is still .12.4 in lucid, so we're still waiting for the package to be uploaded
[14:44] <humphreybc> oh neat
[14:44] <humphreybc> so it might be fixed soon
[14:46] <jbicha> well, it doesn't look like debian or ubuntu have packaged it yet
[14:48] <humphreybc> +1 yourself to the second bug
[14:48] <humphreybc> hopefully it'll be packaged soon
[14:50]  * humphreybc commented on the bug
[14:51] <jbicha> .13.2 is "unstable" upstream, it might take some convincing for Lucid to include it instead of the stable release
[14:52] <jbicha> http://poppler.freedesktop.org/
[14:52]  * humphreybc is going to harness the power of 800 facebook fans to mark it as affecting me
[14:53] <humphreybc> I'll talk to Jorge
[14:53] <humphreybc> someone remind me
[15:02] <humphreybc> hey jbicha you there?
[15:02] <jbicha> yes
[15:02] <humphreybc> could you do me a huge favour
[15:02] <humphreybc> and test if that fix on bug 248335 fixes the issue?
[15:02] <manualbot> Launchpad bug 248335 in ubuntu "WG111T usb Dongle not functional in hardy (dup-of: 147203)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/248335
[15:02] <manualbot> Launchpad bug 147203 in ubuntu "WG111T not working on Hardy" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/147203
[15:02] <humphreybc> oops
[15:02] <humphreybc> not that one
[15:03] <humphreybc> bug 248355
[15:03] <manualbot> Launchpad bug 248355 in poppler "Evince doesn't anti-alias graphics" [Low,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/248355
[15:03] <humphreybc> I'm just talking to Jorge now about getting it in Lucid
[15:03] <jbicha> what do you mean test?
[15:04] <jbicha> install the upstream from git?
[15:04] <humphreybc> if you could
[15:04] <humphreybc> yea
[15:04] <jbicha> I might be a bit rusty at that
[15:05] <humphreybc> heh
[15:05] <humphreybc> mattgriffin: Ubuntu One docs?
[15:06] <mattgriffin> humphreybc: https://code.launchpad.net/~mattgriffin/ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-one-docs
[15:06] <humphreybc> oh fantastic
[15:07] <humphreybc> I don't want to get the whole branch just for the ubuntu one docs
[15:07] <humphreybc> could you please pastebin the section for me and i'll insert it into main?
[15:07] <humphreybc> (Launchpad/bzr goes at about 5KB/s a second to download branches for me)
[15:13] <meho_r> Hi there. What is final decision about acronims: SmallCaps or AllCaps?
[15:13] <meho_r> *acronyms :D
[15:13] <humphreybc> meho_r: the abbreviations or the full meaning?
[15:13] <humphreybc> It should be like this
[15:13] <humphreybc> Internet service provide (ISP)
[15:13] <meho_r> abbrevs
[15:14] <humphreybc> or desktop environment (DE)
[15:14] <humphreybc> so it's not title case
[15:14] <meho_r> e.g. GNOME is sometimes written with All Caps, and sometimes with Small Caps (not small letters)
[15:14] <humphreybc> ah
[15:14] <humphreybc> don't think godbyk has decided that yet
[15:14] <meho_r> :)
[15:15]  * humphreybc likes how the "affecting you" thing has gone from 32 people to 49 in about 15 minutes after pimping it on facebook/twitter
[15:16] <humphreybc> anyway, i really need to get some sleep
[15:17] <jbicha> humphreybc: have a good night
[15:17] <humphreybc> night
[15:17] <jbicha> I got stuck on ./configure , poppler has trouble with fontconfig
[15:58] <jbicha> is the manual in a sorta string freeze or when is that expected?
[15:58] <dutchie> wednesday
[16:04] <jbicha> I tried installing texlive in Lucid but I get the "no version of TeX Live was detected error" when I run install-pkgs.sh
[16:05] <dutchie> the lucid packages don't work
[16:05] <dutchie> you have to use the upstream ones
[16:05] <jbicha> oh, silly wiki
[16:05] <dutchie> there's a guide on the wiki somewhere
[16:05] <jbicha> yeah, but it didn't say Lucid was broken
[16:08] <ubuntujenkins> I will edit the wiki
[16:10] <ubuntujenkins> jbicha: wiki is updates
[16:10] <ubuntujenkins> *updated
[16:16] <jbicha> installation is a little bit of a pain, but I guess it works
[16:29] <daker> dutchie, TexLive or Tex Live ?
[16:39] <dutchie> in what context?
[16:40] <daker> Installing TeX Live 2009 or Installing TeXLive 2009
[16:40] <daker> ?
[16:40] <dutchie> with the space
[16:41] <daker> see here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/authors
[16:41] <daker> the first title : Installing TexLive 2009
[16:41] <daker> and the second : Installing TeX Live 2009
[16:41] <daker> the subtitle
[16:41] <daker> wich one is correct ?
[16:45] <ubuntujenkins> daker: I think the one with the space http://www.tug.org/texlive/doc.html at least thats how tex live doc do it
[16:45] <daker> that's right
[16:46] <ubuntujenkins> indeed there needs to be a space added to the wiki
[16:47] <daker> ubuntu-manual.org move for the second to the first page results http://www.google.co.ma/search?hl=fr&client=firefox-a&hs=bkH&rls=com.ubuntu%3Afr%3Aofficial&q=ubuntu-manual&btnG=Rechercher&meta=&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=
[16:49] <daker> our pagrank is N/A :s
[16:51] <ubuntujenkins> how can we get it higher daker?
[16:51] <daker> ubuntujenkins, SEO
[16:52] <daker> putting specific description for each page, setting up keywords
[16:54] <ubuntujenkins> lots of blogs on it then
[16:55] <daker> higher page rank [16:56] <daker> everyone who has a website or blog "MUST" put a link to our site :D
[16:58] <daker> ubuntujenkins, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_engine_optimization
[16:58] <ubuntujenkins> read it thanks daker
[17:16] <meho_r> godby, we really do need that "Conventions" section ASAP :-)
[17:16] <meho_r> godbyk, we really do need that "Conventions" section ASAP :-)
[17:16] <meho_r> sorry
[17:16] <meho_r> :)
[17:16] <daker> godbyk, is sleeping now meho_r
[17:16] <meho_r> :)
[17:17] <meho_r> Australia?
[17:17] <daker> me ? no from Morocco :)
[17:17] <daker> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morocco
[17:18] <meho_r> Hehe, Marocco isn't that small so one needs a wiki for it :P
[17:19] <daker> hhh
[17:20] <daker> and you Australia?
[17:21] <meho_r> No, Bosnia actually
[17:21] <daker> good
[17:21] <meho_r> (you may need wiki for it though) :D
[17:22] <daker> lol
[17:22] <meho_r> but when you said he's asleep now I though of Australia since there is about 3AM now
[17:23] <meho_r> And sorry for typo: it is not Marocco (in my language is Maroko) :D
[17:24] <daker> godbyk, is form USA
[17:24] <daker> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KevinGodby
[17:44] <Red_HamsterX> But he's on until, like, super-late!
[17:44] <Red_HamsterX> ...And a PhD student?
[17:45]  * Red_HamsterX feels inferior.
[17:46]  * daker feels inferior too
[17:54] <jbicha> what's the command to build the English manual?
[17:55] <dutchie> make
[17:55] <dutchie> or make show
[17:55] <jbicha> oh
[18:01] <jbicha> wow, this is harder than I thought
[18:01] <jbicha> I'll have to try again later
[18:06] <daker> dutchie, http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved/authors
[18:08] <dutchie> the hover on the TL 2009 button would probably be better as "Download Tex Live 2009 now"
[18:08] <daker> yeah
[18:09] <dutchie> and "we recommend" rather than "I recommend"
[18:09] <daker> is Copy Paste from the wiki
[18:09]  * dutchie will fix the wiki then
[18:12] <daker> I recommend is localized where ?
[18:13] <daker> daker, i don't find "I recommend"
[18:14] <daker> dutchie,  i don't find "I recommend"
[18:15] <dutchie> in the installing tex live bit
[18:15] <daker> find it
[18:16] <dutchie> you've got it?
[18:17] <daker> yes
[18:20] <daker> dutchie, have receive my email from the ML ?
[18:20] <daker> you*
[18:23] <dutchie> about blogging the UM site?
[18:23] <daker> yes
[18:23] <dutchie> I'll get round to it
[18:24] <daker> not writing articles , just putting a link of the UM website
[18:25] <dutchie> might as well blog it while I'm at it
[18:27] <Red_HamsterX> I added a link to mine a while ago.
[18:27] <Red_HamsterX> But nobody reads it.
[18:28] <Red_HamsterX> to/from
[18:34] <ubuntujenkins> evening all
[18:35] <Red_HamsterX> Hi.
[18:36] <ubuntujenkins> hello Red_HamsterX
[18:36]  * daker has to make the buttons for ubuntujenkins 
[18:36] <ubuntujenkins> thanks daker
[18:37] <ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX: are you familiar with hiding buttons in windows?
[18:37] <Red_HamsterX> Hiding or disabling?
[18:37] <ubuntujenkins> hiding
[18:37] <Red_HamsterX> Can you elaborate?
[18:38] <ubuntujenkins> well in the first window if the user is not using lucid they will be given a message and the web browser will open the wiki page on how to get quickshot, I would like to hide the next button and only show the close button. you should be able to do it with self.main.next1.hide()
[18:39] <Red_HamsterX> Why not just check the version before displaying that window?
[18:40] <Red_HamsterX> If it isn't Lucid, show the link window.
[18:40] <ubuntujenkins> if it isn't lucid just show a webpage?
[18:40] <Red_HamsterX> Oh... Hmm...
[18:40] <ubuntujenkins> I feel some message to the user should be there as well
[18:41] <ubuntujenkins> the error i get is  self.main.next_1.hide()
[18:41] <ubuntujenkins> AttributeError: 'QuickshotWindow' object has no attribute 'next_1'
[18:41] <ubuntujenkins> luke-jennings@luke-jennings-laptop:~/Projects/quickshot/quickshot$
[18:41] <ubuntujenkins> the button is called next_1
[18:41] <Red_HamsterX> Which file? bin/quickshot?
[18:41] <ubuntujenkins> yep
[18:42] <ubuntujenkins> TommyBrunn did it for another window, are you there tommy?
[18:42] <Red_HamsterX> I think I know why... Just melle test it.
[18:42] <ubuntujenkins> thanks
[18:42] <Red_HamsterX> lemme*
[18:43] <TommyBrunn> What's up, ubuntujenkins?
[18:44] <ubuntujenkins> you knoe how you made some window buttons hide in the usesetup window?
[18:44] <ubuntujenkins> I am trying to hide a button in the main window
[18:45] <ubuntujenkins> self.main.next_1.hide() doesn't work but based on what you have done it should
[18:45] <Red_HamsterX> Well, for some reason, next_1 isn't in the namespace.
[18:45] <TommyBrunn> I can't remember right off the bat, but I think you need to hide the container.
[18:45] <TommyBrunn> Or replace the content in the container.
[18:47] <ubuntujenkins> right i shall look into hiding the container
[18:47] <Red_HamsterX> I see it in the Glade file...
[18:48] <TommyBrunn> Hmm. I'm looking through the pygtk docs right now, and there is a hide method for each widget.
[18:48] <Red_HamsterX> Oh, I think I know why.
[18:48] <TommyBrunn> Since buttons are children of widgets, they should have the hide method
[18:48] <Red_HamsterX> You never added an explicit reference to the button.
[18:48] <TommyBrunn> Oh right, that's it!
[18:48] <ubuntujenkins> I know exactly what that is.......
[18:48] <Red_HamsterX> Just add a self.next_1 = get('next_1') line in the init function.
[18:49] <Red_HamsterX> It isn't automatically inherited by main, since there's no need to add a reference to it for the system to work.
[18:50] <ubuntujenkins> actually i did know what that is just not what it is called
[18:50] <TommyBrunn> So what are you guys working on right now?
[18:50] <ubuntujenkins> that worked thanks guys
[18:50] <Red_HamsterX> I'm fixing a height-detection issue with vertically inverted sub-rects. After that, probably just polish.
[18:50] <Red_HamsterX> And fixing any outstanding UI bugs.
[18:51] <ubuntujenkins> bits and bobs for me, we have a quickshot cd, a ppa I am adding saftey mechanims
[18:51] <TommyBrunn> Cool. So what's the current status of quickshot?
[18:51] <TommyBrunn> What's working and what doesnt
[18:51] <TommyBrunn> ?
[18:51] <TommyBrunn> Isn't*
[18:51] <Red_HamsterX> ubuntujenkins, please add a 'FIXME' comment to that button's code, to remind us to decouple the OS from Quickshot for the next release.
[18:51] <Red_HamsterX> Pretty much everything is working.
[18:52] <TommyBrunn> That's fantastic
[18:52] <Red_HamsterX> It's not as smooth as we want, but it'll get the job done, and it'll do it pretty well.
[18:52] <TommyBrunn> Think you have time to walk me through how it works?
[18:53] <Red_HamsterX> Between titeuf and Luke's work, I think it walks itself through most of the process.
[18:53] <Red_HamsterX> Unless you mean the technical stuff.
[18:53] <TommyBrunn> Yeah, I'm more interested in the technical bits.
[18:54] <Red_HamsterX> Where would you like me to start?
[18:54] <ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX you are much better at explaining
[18:54] <Red_HamsterX> (I'll be slightly distracted as I calculate some things to test the sub-rects tuff)
[18:54] <ubuntujenkins> I will add stuff if i can
[18:54] <TommyBrunn> Well, I'd like to start with what happens on the server side.
[18:55] <TommyBrunn> How are the screenshots stored?
[18:55] <Red_HamsterX> Pure filesystem storage, to make the system portable and easy to update by hand.
[18:56] <TommyBrunn> So, how are they organized?
[18:56] <Red_HamsterX> Each one in placed in a 'data' directory (http://stellvia.uguu.ca/~flan/screencaps/data/), with a name@lang@time.png structure.
[18:56] <Red_HamsterX> This is sufficient for the current needs.
[18:56] <Red_HamsterX> You'll notice a lang.zip file at the bottom.
[18:57] <TommyBrunn> That contains all the screenshots for a given language?
[18:57] <Red_HamsterX> That was automatically generated by a request from http://stellvia.uguu.ca/~flan/screencaps/get_files.php?language=en last night.
[18:57] <TommyBrunn> Cool!
[18:57] <TommyBrunn> So when I start up Quickshot and log into the new account, what happens?
[18:57] <Red_HamsterX> It collects the most recent screencaps (constrained by expected name), renamed so they can be extracted to a branch and committed.
[18:58] <Red_HamsterX> After that, they're ready for the manual.
[18:58] <Red_HamsterX> It's just a matter of extracting, eyeballing, and committing on the admin's part.
[18:58] <Red_HamsterX> If anything's off, an updated version can be updated and the file can be plucked from data/ manually.
[18:58] <TommyBrunn> Oh, and how do you store information for the screenshots? For example, how do you store instructions for what needs to be included in any given screenshot?
[18:59] <Red_HamsterX> If someone's being abusive, we can go backwards in time to get useful images. (Not the fastest method, but it should be a non-issue for this task)
[18:59] <Red_HamsterX> Do you have a recently pulled branch?
[18:59] <TommyBrunn> Yeah, I just pulled.
[18:59] <Red_HamsterX> Also, http://stellvia.uguu.ca/~flan/screencaps/ offers a quick progress view.
[18:59] <Red_HamsterX> It's a bit ugly, but it'll work until we have time to polish everything.
[19:00] <Red_HamsterX> Go to server/screencaps/config/ and open dictionary
[19:00] <Red_HamsterX> That file is an authoritative manifest for everything htat a Quickshot client needs to do.
[19:00] <Red_HamsterX> We didn't have time to add internationalization support to this version, though.
[19:01] <Red_HamsterX> Clients will send requests like http://stellvia.uguu.ca/~flan/screencaps/get_details.php?name=01-who-are-you
[19:01] <TommyBrunn> Well, that's fine for now. What do the #####-lines represent in the dictionary file?
[19:01] <TommyBrunn> Chapters?
[19:01] <Red_HamsterX> They'll then parse the values into a native Python dictionary.
[19:01] <Red_HamsterX> They're just comments.
[19:01] <Red_HamsterX> # makes a line a comment.
[19:01] <Red_HamsterX> I just have them in there to show divisions between chapters.
[19:02] <TommyBrunn> Ok, so they have nothing to do with the parsing. They're just there for structure.
[19:02] <Red_HamsterX> All of this code is running on the ubuntu-manual.org server, too.
[19:02] <Red_HamsterX> We're just using mine because it's easier to nmuke and manage when making changes.
[19:02] <Red_HamsterX> They're there for humans.
[19:02] <Red_HamsterX> The file is a flat database.
[19:03] <Red_HamsterX> It's scanned linearly with every request.
[19:03] <Red_HamsterX> (Which is sufficiently fast for any foreseeable need)
[19:03] <TommyBrunn> When I run Quickshot, will it look at what language I'm using and suggest that I take Swedish screenshots, for example. Or do you select language yourself?
[19:03] <Red_HamsterX> titeuf make it auto-detect.
[19:03] <TommyBrunn> Sweet
[19:04] <Red_HamsterX> Paired with the LiveCD, it should be easy for us to fill in the blanks if we don't have enough volunteers.
[19:04] <TommyBrunn> I'm amazed at how fast you've been able to do all this.
[19:04] <TommyBrunn> Last time I heard, you were still working on some support libraries.
[19:04] <Red_HamsterX> That's where my focus has been all this time.
[19:04] <Red_HamsterX> The web side is just a big library as far as the client is concerned.
[19:05] <Red_HamsterX> It's all exposed through quickshot/lib/__init__.py
[19:06] <Red_HamsterX> All I've done, really, is backend implementation.
[19:06] <Red_HamsterX> Luke and titeuf have been woing all the GUI stuff.
[19:06] <Red_HamsterX> doing*
[19:06] <TommyBrunn> Well, you've been doing one hell of a job. All of you.
[19:06] <Red_HamsterX> I agree. Considering our vastly diverse timezones, we've managed to make this work really well.
[19:07] <ubuntujenkins> The team has done very well
[19:07] <Red_HamsterX> Feel free to give Quickshot a try. It's quite usable.
[19:09] <daker> what's the problem ?
[19:10] <daker> ubuntujenkins, !!!
[19:10] <ubuntujenkins> daker I have saved them but nothing is happening
[19:10] <daker> one min
[19:10] <ubuntujenkins> I canceled one in shock of a popup
[19:10] <TommyBrunn> I'll give it a try now. I'm not on Lucid though. Will it still upload the screenshots to your server so that they can be easily purged?
[19:11] <ubuntujenkins> TommyBrunn: do quickly run -r --devel and it will work
[19:11] <TommyBrunn> kk
[19:11] <ubuntujenkins> that skips the detection
[19:11] <TommyBrunn> I'm missing the module babel
[19:11] <Red_HamsterX> python-pybabel
[19:11] <ubuntujenkins> http://paste.ubuntu.com/406116/ for some reason the web browser loads first
[19:12] <Red_HamsterX> You might want to use p.wait() instead of .communicate() there.
[19:12] <Red_HamsterX> It's guaranteed to procude a trivial amount of output.
[19:13] <Red_HamsterX> You could then use '' in p.stdout.read()
[19:13] <daker> ubuntujenkins, send it to luke@ubuntu-manual.org
[19:13] <ubuntujenkins> thanks daker
[19:13] <Red_HamsterX> As for the browser loading first... GTK timeout with callback, maybe?
[19:14] <ubuntujenkins> they are great darker
[19:14] <daker> :)
[19:14] <ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX: p.wait() gives an error
[19:14] <Red_HamsterX> Paste/spam/PM?
[19:14]  * ubuntujenkins the quickshot wiki is going to look shiny
[19:14] <ubuntujenkins> File "bin/quickshot", line 127, in finish_initializing
[19:14] <ubuntujenkins>     out, err = p.wait()
[19:14] <ubuntujenkins> TypeError: 'int' object is not iterable
[19:14] <Red_HamsterX> Oh. It just returns the returncode.
[19:15] <Red_HamsterX> p = subproces...
[19:15] <Red_HamsterX> p.wait()
[19:15] <Red_HamsterX> if not '' in p.stdout.read():
[19:15] <Red_HamsterX> Where '' = '10.04'
[19:15] <Red_HamsterX> I need to be less lazy.
[19:17] <TommyBrunn> I have it a try, but I couldn't get it to take any screenshots.
[19:17] <Red_HamsterX> How far did you get?
[19:17]  * Red_HamsterX likes bug reports.
[19:17] <TommyBrunn> I chose to take a screenshot of the default terminal
[19:17] <Red_HamsterX> Did a terminal window appear?
[19:18] <TommyBrunn> It launched a terminal window and said "taking screenshot in 3... 2... 1..."
[19:18] <ubuntujenkins> that reminds me of stuff we need to add
[19:18] <TommyBrunn> Then the countdown thingy disappeared
[19:18] <TommyBrunn> And nothing happened after that
[19:18] <Red_HamsterX> ...Weird...
[19:18] <Red_HamsterX> Lemme try.
[19:18] <ubuntujenkins> TommyBrunn: did it change your resolution?
[19:18] <TommyBrunn> Yup
[19:18] <ubuntujenkins> woo another one worked :-)
[19:19] <ubuntujenkins> brb
[19:20] <Red_HamsterX> Interesting...
[19:20] <Red_HamsterX> I'm getting an error I never expected to see actually thrown.
[19:20] <Red_HamsterX> Bug confirmed.
[19:20] <Red_HamsterX> I
[19:20] <Red_HamsterX> I'll get it working as soon as possible.
[19:31] <Red_HamsterX> Sub-rect issue fixed. Now moving on to gnome-terminal not reporting its existence properly.
[19:31] <Red_HamsterX> ubuntujenkins, do we have a generic "something went wrong" dialogue?
[19:32] <Red_HamsterX> I'd like to announce backend errors in some way other than a terminal stack trace.
[19:32] <ubuntujenkins> nope but we will have one tomorrow
[19:32] <Red_HamsterX> Okay.
[19:33] <Red_HamsterX> Thanks for fixing the screen resolution issues.
[19:33] <Red_HamsterX> Er...
[19:34] <Red_HamsterX> resolution-change-dialogue issues*
[19:42] <Red_HamsterX> Hmm... I can't reproduce that error anymore, TommyBrunn.
[19:42] <Red_HamsterX> I'll add a step to try to protect against it, though.
[19:50] <Red_HamsterX> I've intentionally committed a terminal screencap with an inconsistency in it.
[19:50] <Red_HamsterX> http://stellvia.uguu.ca/~flan/screencaps/get_latest.php?language=en&name=06-default-terminal
[19:51] <Red_HamsterX> Feel free to replace it to test the system now, TommyBrunn.
[19:52] <ubuntujenkins> What are your thougths on changing peoples host names to make the terminal screenshots less of a privacy issue ( a small one)?
[19:52] <ubuntujenkins> and they can be consistant
[19:52] <Red_HamsterX> (That page can be used, if we have time, to let the user know whether it's worth uploading a screenshot again.
[19:52] <Red_HamsterX> (There's a function that converts it into a Pixbuf)
[19:52] <Red_HamsterX> I don't think we should worry about blurring things out or anything.
[19:52] <Red_HamsterX> It's not like there's any way of tracing the contributors.
[19:53] <ubuntujenkins> ok cool, i am updating the wiki tomorrow if we had an ideal bug report what do we want in it?
[19:53] <Red_HamsterX> Knowing someone's SSID is 'apostrophe' doesn't help wardrivers.
[19:53] <Red_HamsterX> Stack traces.
[19:53] <ubuntujenkins> so run quickshot --debug at the command line?
[19:54] <Red_HamsterX> Failing that, output from the program with --debug turned on and human-readable reproduction steps.
[19:54] <Red_HamsterX> As well as confirmation that it can be reproduced, if a stack trace/debug trace is missing.
[19:56] <ubuntujenkins> ok, for that window, some thing like  "an unexpected error has occurred please click "File a bug" for information on how to report it.
[19:56] <ubuntujenkins> the button will link to the wiki page on bugs
[19:56] <ubuntujenkins> I wall also add the information to launchpad on what we would like from a bug
[20:02] <Red_HamsterX> My errors are pretty descriptive.
[20:02] <Red_HamsterX> Printing them to the error display shouldn't be confusing.
[20:02] <daker> ubuntujenkins, the wiki is updated or not yet ?
[20:03] <ubuntujenkins> daker not yet i am afraid it took longer than i thought to sort out a daily build
[20:03] <daker> oki
[20:03] <ubuntujenkins> I will let you know as soon as it is done
[20:04] <ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX: if i leave you a bank box to post the errors in will that work??
[20:04] <Red_HamsterX> That would probably work fine.
[20:04] <ubuntujenkins> I will make it scrollable too
[20:05] <Red_HamsterX> "Oh, no! An error occurred and it's not something Quickshot can handle by itself.\n\n<text>\n\n<stack trace>"
[20:06] <ubuntujenkins> Is that what the box should contain?
[20:06] <ubuntujenkins> just double checking
[20:08] <Red_HamsterX> It's just a suggestion.
[20:09] <ubuntujenkins> thats fine I assume <text> gets replaced automatically
[20:09] <ubuntujenkins> Also the stuff you said earlier didn't work Oh. It just returns the returncode.
 p = subproces...
 p.wait()
 if not '' in p.stdout.read():
 Where '' = '10.04'
[20:10] <Red_HamsterX> '%(error)s\n\n%(trace)s' % {'error': str(e), 'trace': some-traceback-call,}
[20:10] <Red_HamsterX> (Or .format(), if you prefer)
[20:11] <Red_HamsterX> What do you currently have in those lines?
[20:13] <ubuntujenkins> I replaced them with the originals whilst I played with a window http://paste.ubuntu.com/406116/
[20:15] <Red_HamsterX> http://paste.ubuntu.com/406139/
[20:18] <ubuntujenkins> Thanks I had replaced the wrong bits, the web browser still shows first and the window doesn't show until the web browser is closed
[20:23] <Red_HamsterX> Oh... Okay, that's interesting... and actually quite logical.
[20:23] <Red_HamsterX> Launch another subprocess.Popen for the browser and abandon it.
[20:24] <Red_HamsterX> os.system() blocks until its child's dead.
[20:24] <Red_HamsterX> So it's synchronous.
[20:24] <Red_HamsterX> Until the browser process terminates, control isn't returned to Python.
[20:25] <Red_HamsterX> If you don't use .wait() or some other synchronization scheme, subprocess.Popen instances do whatever they want.
[20:25] <Red_HamsterX> If you dereference/abandon it, it'll just keep running as long as its parent's alive, doing whatever it wants.
[20:25] <Red_HamsterX> Don't PIPE stdout.
[20:26] <Red_HamsterX> You could also use subprocess.call()
[20:26] <Red_HamsterX> Which probably makes more sense.
[20:27] <ubuntujenkins> That now works, I still have A LOT to learn :-)
[20:27] <Red_HamsterX> It'll come with time. :)
[20:27] <Red_HamsterX> For a tester, you're doing a lot. =P
[20:29] <ubuntujenkins> I think it is a good way to learn especially with you guys being so helpful
[20:30] <Red_HamsterX> Projects are always good ways to learn. (Unless you have someone overbearing, who insists on things being done their way)
[20:30] <Red_HamsterX> Feel free to ask about anything. Chances are one of us has encountered it before.
[20:32] <ubuntujenkins> Thanks
[21:34] <ubuntujenkins> Evening titeuf_87 hows you?
[21:35] <titeuf_87> Hey ubuntujenkins
[21:35] <titeuf_87> Pretty horrible: missed my tram to go home so was home late, once home I was without internet for couple of hours.
[21:35] <titeuf_87> Then once internet was back power suddenly went down, twice.
[21:35] <titeuf_87> And now I get i/o errors from my hd
[21:35] <ubuntujenkins> that sucks not good then
[21:36] <titeuf_87> I'm more worrying about those i/o errors now, those can't be good.
[21:36] <titeuf_87> Like now, if I launch firefox, it brings down my whole computer where I have to reboot.
[21:37] <ubuntujenkins> back it all up quickly it doesn't sound good
[21:37] <titeuf_87> Yeah, I got another hd now, but it's too late at night do to that now so it'll have to wait till tomorrow.
[21:39] <ubuntujenkins> you are still here tomorrow right?
[21:39] <titeuf_87> If my internet isn't down again, I should be.
[21:40] <ubuntujenkins> good good, I am having a fight with glade again
[21:41] <titeuf_87> Ah I can help out a little bit now I think, although I won't stay long as I'm fairly tired.
[21:41] <titeuf_87> What problem do you have?
[21:42] <dakira> Hi.. just read through the manual.. looks really nice! Though some things refer to older releases of Ubuntu. In the Codes-Section e.g. you are told you have to enable the multiverse repository. To my knowledge it is enabled by default now. I'll report some bug in the next couple of day, I think ;)
[21:42] <ubuntujenkins> I am trying to make neil an error window but the scroll bars don't work and the text always centres vertically.
[21:42] <ubuntujenkins> dakira: Which country are you in?
[21:43] <titeuf_87> Can I see what you have already?
[21:43] <ubuntujenkins> sure I will just upload it
[21:44] <dakira> ubuntujenkins: are you saying ubiquity automatically enables multiverse if my country allows all codecs?
[21:44] <dakira> s/Codes/Codecs/g
[21:45] <ubuntujenkins> dakira: I am unsure, i have a feeling that it might be
[21:45] <Red_HamsterX> Errors are rare enough that it probably isn't worth polishing beyond making it useful, given how close we are to April 1st.
[21:45] <Red_HamsterX> (Regarding Quickshot)
[21:46] <ubuntujenkins> titeuf_87: rev 170
[21:46] <manualbot> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/revision/170 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual -r 170
[21:48] <ubuntujenkins> nope titeuf_87 spotted a typo rev 171
[21:48] <manualbot> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/revision/171 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual -r 171
[21:48] <ubuntujenkins> dakira: if you are going to file a bug please do it soon as we are going to be in writing freeze soon
[21:50] <dakira> ubuntujenkins: I know. I'll check the repos with the live-CD and file the bugs until tomorrow
[21:50] <ubuntujenkins> thanks dakira
[21:51] <titeuf_87> looking now ubuntujenkins
[21:51] <ubuntujenkins> thank you
[21:51] <ubuntujenkins> titeuf_87: the ppa works properly now daily builds and all
[21:51] <titeuf_87> ah I noticed some mails about that at work earlier, that it failed.
[21:51] <titeuf_87> That's fixed?
[21:54] <titeuf_87> ubuntujenkins, for the scrollbar, that's easy enough to fix: right-click on the label, add parent, viewport
[21:55] <titeuf_87> And for the text not being centered, this does look right to me, aligned horizontally.
[21:55] <ubuntujenkins> the scrollbar makes sense
[21:59] <ubuntujenkins> titeuf_87: it all makes sense now, I will commit it in a second
[22:01] <ubuntujenkins> titeuf_87: and Red_HamsterX I have started the wiki changes, feel free to edit it i am not the best descriptive writer. I haven't done much but I have started to add dakers buttons and there will be a get quickshot page apearing
[22:03] <titeuf_87> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/quickshot
[22:03] <titeuf_87> that one?
[22:03] <ubuntujenkins> yep
[22:08] <ubuntujenkins> titeuf_87: I have messed it up can you please commit those changes the  suggested text was "Oh, no! An error occurred and it's not something Quickshot can handle by itself.\n\n<text>\n\n<stack trace>"
[22:08] <titeuf_87> Sure.
[22:09] <titeuf_87> You get the stack trace in the code already?
[22:09] <ubuntujenkins> thanks, that text was suggested by Red_HamsterX I think he has plans for it
[22:11] <titeuf_87> Ok, pushed it now.
[22:12] <titeuf_87> Anything else that I could do now that you know won't take long/won't be a lot of work?
[22:12] <ubuntujenkins> thanks, no thats fine thanks for you help
[22:14] <titeuf_87> Sorry I couldn't help out more today, I wanted to add the ability to view info/reference screenshot from the screenshot list but didn't have the time for it.
[22:14] <titeuf_87> Hopefully I will tomorrow.
[22:14] <ubuntujenkins> thats no problem we have a good program
[22:14] <titeuf_87> anyways, going to bed now. Night all.
[22:14] <ubuntujenkins> we need to call a freeze at some point so i can get  a good version onto the cd and then get the cd to godbyk
[22:15] <ubuntujenkins> night titeuf_87
[22:15] <titeuf_87> Let's do that tomorrow too, test it fully and see that everything works :)
[22:16] <ubuntujenkins> night all