islington_can I get some critique on a logo?04:16
=== islington_ is now known as islington
=== \vish is now known as vish
dashuakwwii, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/metacity/+bug/53508804:37
ubottuUbuntu bug 535088 in metacity "Metacity bug when using background for buttons (dup-of: 532224)" [Low,Triaged]04:37
ubottuUbuntu bug 532224 in compiz "[ambiance, radiance] no rounding when window has no maximise icon" [High,Confirmed]04:37
dashuaWhen you get up :)04:38
thorwilhi Icey-Net. so this your work: http://icey-net.deviantart.com/art/Ubuntu-Concept-Design-FULL-15887163410:16
Icey-Netthorwil, yes. :P10:16
thorwilthe glowing underline effect is interesting10:18
Icey-Netthorwil, I like to call it the "indicator".10:18
thorwilIcey-Net: i moved your page to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Concepts/UbuntuConcept as that's where it belongs10:24
Icey-Netthorwil, Thanks. I couldn't quite understand how to do it.10:24
knomehey thorwil :)10:25
thorwilhi knome10:25
Icey-Netthorwil, I almost gave up on putting it on the wiki like 2 times... It's ridiculously confusing.10:25
thorwilIcey-Net: the More Actions menu has a Rename command10:25
thorwilIcey-Net: yes, i wish we had something more structured, with wysiwyg editing10:26
Icey-Netthorwil, the wysiwyg editor, while a nice additon, isn't quite what I had in mind.10:26
Icey-Netthorwil, The whole process of putting something up there is... confusing.10:26
Icey-NetUnnecessarily confusing.10:26
thorwilIcey-Net: like many mockups, yours has the problem that implementing it would require lots of changes all over the place. so far i never witnessed such a design convincing enough of the right people. you have to expect that nothing of this will ever happen10:27
Icey-Netthorwil, Lots of changes all over the place is the main principle of this design.10:28
Icey-Netthorwil, In order to advance, one must be adoptive to change.10:29
thorwilthere's a professional design team at canonical. you have things happen in upstream projects, especially gnome. your dealing with rather small and close-knit circles of people who make things happen10:32
Icey-Netthorwil, Come again?10:33
thorwiland then it's not at all clear what would and wouldn't be "advance"10:33
Icey-NetI'm not sure if the hands of said professional designers are tied or something, but frankly, there are many, many things that could and should have changed way before...10:35
Icey-NetWhile Lucid Lynx does look a lot better than previous versions, it could and should still be better.10:36
knomeIcey-Net, whatever the facts are, the design team will pretty much stay with what they have.10:36
Icey-NetSo, whatever they make is right and everyone else is wrong, I take it?10:37
knomeIcey-Net, also because the design they've worked on is signed off by sabdfl, and they can't make modifications withtout mark accepting those10:37
knomeIcey-Net, on large scales yes, you can affect details though and the overall look in slower pace.10:37
Icey-NetI'm sorry, who is he?10:37
thorwilIcey-Net: sabdfl = Mark Shuttleworth10:38
knomeIcey-Net, mark shuttleworth.10:38
Icey-NetAnd he is? :P10:38
knomea millionaire and the ofunder of canonical and ubuntu.10:38
knomethe one who puts all the money in ubuntu.10:38
knomethus pretty much having all the power in ubuntu, if he wants to.10:39
Icey-NetSo, basically, whatever he says is right and whatever anyone else thinks/says is outright wrong?10:39
knomeumm, pretty much yes. but you can discuss about things.10:40
thorwilIcey-Net: so if you want your work to have an impact, you have much better chances if you address single details. or if you look for other projects that do not have a payed design team10:40
knomethorwil, payed==paid10:40
knomeor work with a derivative.10:41
Icey-NetWhy do I sometimes forget how companies actually work? :P10:41
knomewhere you have much more control over things yourself.10:41
Icey-NetWork with a what?10:41
thorwilIcey-Net: far reaching changes on the desktop level would have to happen on the gnome level, anyway10:41
knomeIcey-Net, derivative, like kubuntu, xubuntu or edubuntu.10:41
thorwilknome: arg, irregular irregularities falling out of my memory10:42
knomethorwil, Icey-Net: the changes for gnome itself must be proposed for the gnome team, not ubuntu10:42
thorwilthat's what i was about10:43
Icey-NetAnd let me guess, they also have a 'professional' design team?10:43
knomethorwil, yup. got it ;)10:43
knomei don't know how much gnome employs people, but it's also not a structure where you can jump in and change everything just like that. besides, somebody has to implement those features and it takes time.10:44
thorwilIcey-Net: not directly. there are a number of important people working on gnome associated with companies10:44
Icey-NetSo, the best way to get this done is to get a group of volunteer programmers... Do it, spread it, if it's a great success, tell Canonical "In your face"!10:46
Icey-NetAm I right? :P10:46
knomeif it's a great success, rather ask ubuntu (canonical) whether they'd like to use it.10:47
knomeif it's released as closed source or non-free, i don't know how many distros would use it anyway.10:47
Icey-NetOk, I'm just kidding. But if I was dead serious about getting this done, the best thing to do would be to get it to gnome devs?10:47
Icey-NetObviously it would be free. :/10:48
vishIcey-Net: yes , get a few devs to implement your ideas :)10:48
Icey-NetGood. Where do I get one of those?10:48
knomeIcey-Net, you could propose the changes to be done. if they are not willing to, create a branch and get some devs do it in the branch, then propose merging :P10:48
vishthen let it be adopted in the distributions10:48
vishIcey-Net: we have the gnome dev market ;)10:48
Icey-Netvish, will they work for a whopping price of 0.000 USD per hour?10:49
* knome sings ..whisper words of wisdom: let it be10:49
knomeIcey-Net, yes, if they like the features you propose.10:49
vishIcey-Net: they might  if they are inspired10:49
Icey-Netknome, inspired?10:50
Icey-Netwrong tab. :o10:50
knomeIcey-Net, inspired as in the same thing i said :P10:50
Icey-Netknome, Ah yes.10:50
Icey-Netknome, Well, take a look at it. Do you think anyone will be inspired? :D10:50
Icey-NetHonestly, I've no idea.10:50
knomeIcey-Net, i don't know. those things are matter of taste10:51
thorwili'm not aware of a single successful floss software project started by someone who doesn't code himself10:51
vishIcey-Net: you will have better luck in getting new ideas , implemented in gnome-shell10:51
knomeIcey-Net, i personally like a more traditional approach, but then again, i don't use gnome.10:51
Icey-Netknome, the design, graphics are obviously a matter of taste. As far as usability goes, that's what the main point is here.10:51
vishthorwil: +110:51
knomeIcey-Net, usability is also something people disagree about10:52
Icey-Netknome, No. People disagree on what they 'think' is usability.10:52
Icey-Netknome, To be quite frank, no single person without extensive research can say for sure what's and what isn't 'usability'.10:53
Icey-NetI don't know what's usability, so I'm not going to even pretend that I do.10:53
vishIcey-Net: yes , everyone can only /think/ , i dont think there is enough moolah to do extensive user-testing for every feature10:53
Icey-NetI do, however, have ideas on what could, in fact, be that.10:54
knomeIcey-Net, usability can be different things for different people. is the style you propose good for a guy with bad eyesight? maybe not, since there's still quite a lot of little-contrasted stuff.10:54
Icey-Netknome, But then again, the buttons a menu items are rather large.10:54
knomeIcey-Net, size isn't everything, if your eyesight really is bad. you just can't see stuff.10:55
knomeanyway, that was not an argument against the stuff10:55
Icey-NetThey invented glasses for that.10:56
knomeit was just proving that there are lots of things to consider and what works for others might not work for you and the other way around10:56
Icey-NetI mean obviously not everyone will find it usable and not everyone will like it.10:56
knomethere are people who can't see with even glasses. and glasses do not fix contrast.10:56
Icey-Netknome, There are monitor options that tone down contrast. :P10:56
knomeIcey-Net, that's why you can't say its usability is great.10:57
Icey-NetYes. I can not.10:57
knomeand that's why people are free to disagree10:57
Icey-NetThey are in fact free to do so.10:57
darkmatterthat's not usability though. it's accessibility. different fish. and with that I depart the conversation10:57
knomeand that's why i say people can disagree about usability and not only "think" they disagree.10:58
Icey-Netdarkmatter, We're just babbling non-sense for the lulz. Don't mind us.10:58
knomew/e, you can't please everyone.10:58
Icey-Netknome, Well, if they don't think they disagree, they really don't disagree. As they're not even thinking of disagreeing.10:58
knomestart somewhere and get some devs working on it.10:58
Icey-Netknome, Of course not.10:58
Icey-Netknome, I will do just that. :P10:59
knomeif they're not willing, code yourself or think of some modifications, or start from a smaller piece.10:59
Icey-NetWhy wouldn't someone be willing? :O10:59
knomein the end smaller changes are easier to understand and start working on.10:59
knomeIcey-Net, if they don't agree with your proposal or just don't like it enough to start working on it for free?11:00
knome== if they lack the inspiration11:00
Icey-Netknome, Why would they disagree and just not like it? :O11:00
knomeIcey-Net, because they are free to disagree. you remember that part? :P11:01
Icey-Netknome, No they're not. I don't remember. No. Never! D:11:01
knomeplus, people are afraid of change.11:01
Icey-Netknome, People are always afraid, will always be afraid and have always been always been afaird.11:01
vishIcey-Net: FYI , gnome-panel is dead/dying , you will not see any more improvements/enhancements , gnome-shell is a probably which can have some new changes..11:01
Icey-NetSo? Does this mean that no change should ever be made?11:02
Icey-Netgnome-shell, in my opinion is... ehm... can I swear here? :P11:02
knomeIcey-Net, nope. but if you can't code it yourself, ...11:02
knomeIcey-Net, nobody has to do it for you.11:02
vishIcey-Net: everyone is still swearing , but all the experienced gnome devs are working on it ;)11:03
Icey-Netknome, What?! Everyone has to do it for me! :O This is Iceman! SPARTAAA!!! :O11:03
darkmattervish: they're still improving/maintaining gnome-panel for the time being, since several distros are unlikely to switch over to that god awful shell even at gunpoint :P11:03
vishdarkmatter: i meant in terms of enhancements :) bug fixes will go on11:04
Icey-Netdarkmatter, I wont ever use gnome-shell. It has become a matter of principle.11:04
vishIcey-Net: tell me that in 2yrs ;p11:04
knomeIcey-Net, feel free to come and discuss with me constructively once you've acknowledged you're not the king of the world.11:04
Icey-Netvish, In 2 years I'll see how Microsoft has pulled off another eye-candy OS that everyone will drool over.11:04
Icey-Netvish, Which I would be willing to pay another 200 bucks for.11:05
Icey-NetForgetting all about the problems of gnome and whatnot.11:05
darkmattervish: there are enhancements. two days ago iirc they fixed the notification applet to force ordering (kinda like fedora does but slightly different code)11:05
Icey-Netknome, I'm the king of the world!! D:11:05
vishdarkmatter: that bug patch was in waiting for nearly 9-12 months ;)11:06
Icey-Netknome, P.S. I am, for the most part, just talking non-sense. =D11:06
darkmattervish: what bug doesn't? :P11:06
darkmattervish: there are still some fairly obvious bugs floating around from ten years ago. it's awesome ;)11:14
vishdarkmatter: yeah some are really frustrating too , well  c'est la gnome vie :/11:15
darkmattervish: on a plus note, I finally got metacity to cooperate and give me 3 pixel rounded corners!11:18
Icey-Netdarkmatter, Oh boy!11:19
darkmatternow on to more fun drawing ops11:19
Icey-Netdarkmatter, 3 pixels! 3!11:19
Icey-Netdarkmatter, An entire 3! O_o11:19
Icey-Netdarkmatter, Is my sarcasm too mean? =(11:19
darkmatterIcey-Net: yes, instead of a highly pixelated 511:20
Icey-Netdarkmatter, Great success!11:20
darkmatternow I need to work on lighting and shadows. title rendering and designing some purtay multi-layered buttons11:21
Icey-Netdarkmatter, Err...11:21
Icey-Netdarkmatter, Yeah, yeah. Definitely.11:21
Icey-NetIt is almost as if my neck is trying to murder me...11:23
Icey-Netit hurts... a lot.11:23
darkmatterIcey-Net: my back has been stabbing me in the back since wednesday. fun times11:23
Icey-NetOh, gotta love that.11:24
Icey-NetWait, have you guys even seen the concept design I made?11:24
Icey-NetI know thorwil has seen it.11:25
darkmatterIcey-Net: yeah, I saw it on DA earlier11:25
Icey-Netdarkmatter, Really?11:25
Icey-Netdarkmatter, You just stumbled upon it or something?11:25
darkmatterIcey-Net: yeah. I was browsing DA out of boredom11:26
Icey-Netstupid IRC client. -.-11:26
Icey-Netdarkmatter, Did you say something?11:26
darkmatterIcey-Net: yeah. I said I was browsing DA out of boredom when I saw it11:27
Icey-Netdarkmatter, Are you being sarcastic? =.=11:27
darkmatterno. I browse DA out of boredom frequently :P11:28
Icey-Netdarkmatter, Oh...11:28
Icey-Netdarkmatter, How do you like the cursors?11:28
Icey-Netdarkmatter, I'm particulary worried about that. They're the first cursors I've made. Ever.11:28
darkmatterIcey-Net: the cursors are awesome. they go nicely with ubuntu's new branding imo11:29
Icey-Netdarkmatter, New branding now?11:29
vishdarkmatter: screenshot [of the new borders]?11:29
darkmattervish: sec11:30
darkmatterI stole the buttons from elementary as place holders :P11:30
Icey-Netdarkmatter, Thief! What kind of a person steals stuff from elementary? :l11:32
Icey-Netdarkmatter, You are aware that I am, in fact, just messin' with ya, yes?11:36
Icey-NetWewt. O_o11:37
darkmattervish: sorry, I had to find a wally light enough to get a clear look at them. ignore the font and crap. placeholder evils :P http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/9742/screenshotyu.png11:38
Icey-Netdarkmatter, Hisss! :o You put me on the screenshot! :O11:41
vishdarkmatter: hmm , still not the best :(   , but why is the border towards the top tapering inward?  it that by design or due to lighter colors towards the top fooling the eyes?11:41
vishrather darker colors maybe..11:41
darkmattervish: it's my transparency settings and the fact that I still need to apply the drawing ops to the titlebar. I just started on those. I need to round/fade the corners of the highlight, add a slight gradient, etch the text (and embolden it slightly). move the title to the left, drop the menu button, blah blah11:44
darkmattervish: at least they're not pixelated :P11:45
darkmatterI needed to start on the metacity before continuing on the gtk. because otherwise it'll look like crap11:46
darkmattervish: I just wish the drawing ops for metacity were simpler. it takes forever to code :/11:47
vishdarkmatter: is there a metacity viewer , something like twf?11:48
darkmattervish. theres a built in viewer to run from a terminal. there's also the widget laboratory. it's like the widget factory but does both gtk and metacity11:49
vishkinda irritating playing with metacity and having to reselect the theme ,just to check how it looks..11:49
vish$metacity-theme-viewer theme ainth that good , it only draws the title bar from the theme mentioned :s11:51
darkmattervish: looks like http://gnome-look.org/content/preview.php?preview=1&id=119773&file1=119773-1.jpg&file2=&file3=&name=The+Widget+Laboratory11:51
vishdarkmatter: ooh , neat thanks11:52
darkmatternp. I still need to replace twf with it ;p11:52
Icey-NetHai! =)13:52
SilentDreamhi everyone!14:02
Icey-Netthorwil, Hai! :P15:54
Icey-Netthorwil, I released the cursors from my concept design. ;o16:03
thorwilIcey-Net: so they can roam free and live their life in the wilderness?16:05
Icey-Netthorwil, Exactly. :B16:05
thorwil:B  what's that? two tongues, split tongue or rabbit-teeth?16:06
Icey-NetBucktoofs. =P16:07
Icey-NetI'll, hopefully be back later.16:09

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