[04:16] can I get some critique on a logo? === islington_ is now known as islington === \vish is now known as vish [04:37] kwwii, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/metacity/+bug/535088 [04:37] Ubuntu bug 535088 in metacity "Metacity bug when using background for buttons (dup-of: 532224)" [Low,Triaged] [04:37] Ubuntu bug 532224 in compiz "[ambiance, radiance] no rounding when window has no maximise icon" [High,Confirmed] [04:38] When you get up :) [09:13] 'Ello. [10:16] hi Icey-Net. so this your work: http://icey-net.deviantart.com/art/Ubuntu-Concept-Design-FULL-158871634 [10:16] thorwil, yes. :P [10:18] the glowing underline effect is interesting [10:18] thorwil, I like to call it the "indicator". [10:24] Icey-Net: i moved your page to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Concepts/UbuntuConcept as that's where it belongs [10:24] thorwil, Thanks. I couldn't quite understand how to do it. [10:25] hey thorwil :) [10:25] hi knome [10:25] thorwil, I almost gave up on putting it on the wiki like 2 times... It's ridiculously confusing. [10:25] Icey-Net: the More Actions menu has a Rename command [10:26] Icey-Net: yes, i wish we had something more structured, with wysiwyg editing [10:26] thorwil, the wysiwyg editor, while a nice additon, isn't quite what I had in mind. [10:26] thorwil, The whole process of putting something up there is... confusing. [10:26] Unnecessarily confusing. [10:27] Icey-Net: like many mockups, yours has the problem that implementing it would require lots of changes all over the place. so far i never witnessed such a design convincing enough of the right people. you have to expect that nothing of this will ever happen [10:28] thorwil, Lots of changes all over the place is the main principle of this design. [10:29] thorwil, In order to advance, one must be adoptive to change. [10:32] there's a professional design team at canonical. you have things happen in upstream projects, especially gnome. your dealing with rather small and close-knit circles of people who make things happen [10:33] thorwil, Come again? [10:33] and then it's not at all clear what would and wouldn't be "advance" [10:35] nevermind [10:35] ;) [10:35] I'm not sure if the hands of said professional designers are tied or something, but frankly, there are many, many things that could and should have changed way before... [10:36] While Lucid Lynx does look a lot better than previous versions, it could and should still be better. [10:36] Icey-Net, whatever the facts are, the design team will pretty much stay with what they have. [10:37] So, whatever they make is right and everyone else is wrong, I take it? [10:37] Icey-Net, also because the design they've worked on is signed off by sabdfl, and they can't make modifications withtout mark accepting those [10:37] Icey-Net, on large scales yes, you can affect details though and the overall look in slower pace. [10:37] I'm sorry, who is he? [10:38] Icey-Net: sabdfl = Mark Shuttleworth [10:38] Icey-Net, mark shuttleworth. [10:38] And he is? :P [10:38] =D [10:38] a millionaire and the ofunder of canonical and ubuntu. [10:38] *founder [10:38] the one who puts all the money in ubuntu. [10:39] thus pretty much having all the power in ubuntu, if he wants to. [10:39] So, basically, whatever he says is right and whatever anyone else thinks/says is outright wrong? [10:40] umm, pretty much yes. but you can discuss about things. [10:40] Icey-Net: so if you want your work to have an impact, you have much better chances if you address single details. or if you look for other projects that do not have a payed design team [10:40] thorwil, payed==paid [10:40] ;) [10:41] or work with a derivative. [10:41] Why do I sometimes forget how companies actually work? :P [10:41] where you have much more control over things yourself. [10:41] Work with a what? [10:41] Icey-Net: far reaching changes on the desktop level would have to happen on the gnome level, anyway [10:41] Icey-Net, derivative, like kubuntu, xubuntu or edubuntu. [10:42] Meh... [10:42] knome: arg, irregular irregularities falling out of my memory [10:42] thorwil, Icey-Net: the changes for gnome itself must be proposed for the gnome team, not ubuntu [10:43] that's what i was about [10:43] And let me guess, they also have a 'professional' design team? [10:43] thorwil, yup. got it ;) [10:44] i don't know how much gnome employs people, but it's also not a structure where you can jump in and change everything just like that. besides, somebody has to implement those features and it takes time. [10:44] Icey-Net: not directly. there are a number of important people working on gnome associated with companies [10:46] So, the best way to get this done is to get a group of volunteer programmers... Do it, spread it, if it's a great success, tell Canonical "In your face"! [10:46] Am I right? :P [10:46] uh [10:47] if it's a great success, rather ask ubuntu (canonical) whether they'd like to use it. [10:47] if it's released as closed source or non-free, i don't know how many distros would use it anyway. [10:47] Ok, I'm just kidding. But if I was dead serious about getting this done, the best thing to do would be to get it to gnome devs? [10:48] Obviously it would be free. :/ [10:48] Icey-Net: yes , get a few devs to implement your ideas :) [10:48] Good. Where do I get one of those? [10:48] Icey-Net, you could propose the changes to be done. if they are not willing to, create a branch and get some devs do it in the branch, then propose merging :P [10:48] then let it be adopted in the distributions [10:48] =P [10:48] Icey-Net: we have the gnome dev market ;) [10:49] vish, will they work for a whopping price of 0.000 USD per hour? [10:49] * knome sings ..whisper words of wisdom: let it be [10:49] Icey-Net, yes, if they like the features you propose. [10:49] Icey-Net: they might if they are inspired [10:50] knome, inspired? [10:50] wrong tab. :o [10:50] Icey-Net, inspired as in the same thing i said :P [10:50] knome, Ah yes. [10:50] knome, Well, take a look at it. Do you think anyone will be inspired? :D [10:50] Honestly, I've no idea. [10:51] Icey-Net, i don't know. those things are matter of taste [10:51] i'm not aware of a single successful floss software project started by someone who doesn't code himself [10:51] Icey-Net: you will have better luck in getting new ideas , implemented in gnome-shell [10:51] Icey-Net, i personally like a more traditional approach, but then again, i don't use gnome. [10:51] knome, the design, graphics are obviously a matter of taste. As far as usability goes, that's what the main point is here. [10:51] thorwil: +1 [10:52] Icey-Net, usability is also something people disagree about [10:52] knome, No. People disagree on what they 'think' is usability. [10:53] knome, To be quite frank, no single person without extensive research can say for sure what's and what isn't 'usability'. [10:53] I don't know what's usability, so I'm not going to even pretend that I do. [10:53] Icey-Net: yes , everyone can only /think/ , i dont think there is enough moolah to do extensive user-testing for every feature [10:54] I do, however, have ideas on what could, in fact, be that. [10:54] Icey-Net, usability can be different things for different people. is the style you propose good for a guy with bad eyesight? maybe not, since there's still quite a lot of little-contrasted stuff. [10:54] knome, But then again, the buttons a menu items are rather large. [10:54] and* [10:55] Icey-Net, size isn't everything, if your eyesight really is bad. you just can't see stuff. [10:55] anyway, that was not an argument against the stuff [10:56] They invented glasses for that. [10:56] it was just proving that there are lots of things to consider and what works for others might not work for you and the other way around [10:56] I mean obviously not everyone will find it usable and not everyone will like it. [10:56] there are people who can't see with even glasses. and glasses do not fix contrast. [10:56] knome, There are monitor options that tone down contrast. :P [10:57] Icey-Net, that's why you can't say its usability is great. [10:57] Yes. I can not. [10:57] and that's why people are free to disagree [10:57] They are in fact free to do so. [10:57] that's not usability though. it's accessibility. different fish. and with that I depart the conversation [10:58] and that's why i say people can disagree about usability and not only "think" they disagree. [10:58] darkmatter, We're just babbling non-sense for the lulz. Don't mind us. [10:58] w/e, you can't please everyone. [10:58] knome, Well, if they don't think they disagree, they really don't disagree. As they're not even thinking of disagreeing. [10:58] start somewhere and get some devs working on it. [10:58] knome, Of course not. [10:59] knome, I will do just that. :P [10:59] if they're not willing, code yourself or think of some modifications, or start from a smaller piece. [10:59] Why wouldn't someone be willing? :O [10:59] in the end smaller changes are easier to understand and start working on. [11:00] Icey-Net, if they don't agree with your proposal or just don't like it enough to start working on it for free? [11:00] == if they lack the inspiration [11:00] knome, Why would they disagree and just not like it? :O [11:01] Icey-Net, because they are free to disagree. you remember that part? :P [11:01] knome, No they're not. I don't remember. No. Never! D: [11:01] plus, people are afraid of change. [11:01] knome, People are always afraid, will always be afraid and have always been always been afaird. [11:01] yes. [11:01] Icey-Net: FYI , gnome-panel is dead/dying , you will not see any more improvements/enhancements , gnome-shell is a probably which can have some new changes.. [11:02] So? Does this mean that no change should ever be made? [11:02] gnome-shell, in my opinion is... ehm... can I swear here? :P [11:02] Icey-Net, nope. but if you can't code it yourself, ... [11:02] Icey-Net, nobody has to do it for you. [11:03] Icey-Net: everyone is still swearing , but all the experienced gnome devs are working on it ;) [11:03] knome, What?! Everyone has to do it for me! :O This is Iceman! SPARTAAA!!! :O [11:03] vish: they're still improving/maintaining gnome-panel for the time being, since several distros are unlikely to switch over to that god awful shell even at gunpoint :P [11:04] darkmatter: i meant in terms of enhancements :) bug fixes will go on [11:04] darkmatter, I wont ever use gnome-shell. It has become a matter of principle. [11:04] Icey-Net: tell me that in 2yrs ;p [11:04] Icey-Net, feel free to come and discuss with me constructively once you've acknowledged you're not the king of the world. [11:04] vish, In 2 years I'll see how Microsoft has pulled off another eye-candy OS that everyone will drool over. [11:05] vish, Which I would be willing to pay another 200 bucks for. [11:05] Forgetting all about the problems of gnome and whatnot. [11:05] vish: there are enhancements. two days ago iirc they fixed the notification applet to force ordering (kinda like fedora does but slightly different code) [11:05] knome, I'm the king of the world!! D: [11:06] darkmatter: that bug patch was in waiting for nearly 9-12 months ;) [11:06] knome, P.S. I am, for the most part, just talking non-sense. =D [11:06] vish: what bug doesn't? :P [11:06] brb [11:14] vish: there are still some fairly obvious bugs floating around from ten years ago. it's awesome ;) [11:15] darkmatter: yeah some are really frustrating too , well c'est la gnome vie :/ [11:15] hehe [11:18] vish: on a plus note, I finally got metacity to cooperate and give me 3 pixel rounded corners! [11:19] darkmatter, Oh boy! [11:19] now on to more fun drawing ops [11:19] darkmatter, 3 pixels! 3! [11:19] darkmatter, An entire 3! O_o [11:19] darkmatter, Is my sarcasm too mean? =( [11:20] Icey-Net: yes, instead of a highly pixelated 5 [11:20] darkmatter, Great success! [11:21] now I need to work on lighting and shadows. title rendering and designing some purtay multi-layered buttons [11:21] darkmatter, Err... [11:21] darkmatter, Yeah, yeah. Definitely. [11:23] It is almost as if my neck is trying to murder me... [11:23] it hurts... a lot. [11:23] Icey-Net: my back has been stabbing me in the back since wednesday. fun times [11:24] Oh, gotta love that. [11:24] Wait, have you guys even seen the concept design I made? [11:25] I know thorwil has seen it. [11:25] Icey-Net: yeah, I saw it on DA earlier [11:25] darkmatter, Really? [11:25] darkmatter, You just stumbled upon it or something? [11:26] Icey-Net: yeah. I was browsing DA out of boredom [11:26] pfft [11:26] stupid IRC client. -.- [11:26] darkmatter, Did you say something? [11:27] Icey-Net: yeah. I said I was browsing DA out of boredom when I saw it [11:27] darkmatter, Are you being sarcastic? =.= [11:28] no. I browse DA out of boredom frequently :P [11:28] darkmatter, Oh... [11:28] darkmatter, How do you like the cursors? [11:28] darkmatter, I'm particulary worried about that. They're the first cursors I've made. Ever. [11:29] Icey-Net: the cursors are awesome. they go nicely with ubuntu's new branding imo [11:29] darkmatter, New branding now? [11:29] darkmatter: screenshot [of the new borders]? [11:30] vish: sec [11:30] I stole the buttons from elementary as place holders :P [11:32] darkmatter, Thief! What kind of a person steals stuff from elementary? :l [11:36] darkmatter, You are aware that I am, in fact, just messin' with ya, yes? [11:36] aye [11:37] Wewt. O_o [11:38] vish: sorry, I had to find a wally light enough to get a clear look at them. ignore the font and crap. placeholder evils :P http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/9742/screenshotyu.png [11:41] darkmatter, Hisss! :o You put me on the screenshot! :O [11:41] darkmatter: hmm , still not the best :( , but why is the border towards the top tapering inward? it that by design or due to lighter colors towards the top fooling the eyes? [11:41] rather darker colors maybe.. [11:44] vish: it's my transparency settings and the fact that I still need to apply the drawing ops to the titlebar. I just started on those. I need to round/fade the corners of the highlight, add a slight gradient, etch the text (and embolden it slightly). move the title to the left, drop the menu button, blah blah [11:45] ;) [11:45] vish: at least they're not pixelated :P [11:46] I needed to start on the metacity before continuing on the gtk. because otherwise it'll look like crap [11:47] vish: I just wish the drawing ops for metacity were simpler. it takes forever to code :/ [11:48] darkmatter: is there a metacity viewer , something like twf? [11:49] vish. theres a built in viewer to run from a terminal. there's also the widget laboratory. it's like the widget factory but does both gtk and metacity [11:49] kinda irritating playing with metacity and having to reselect the theme ,just to check how it looks.. [11:50] https://launchpad.net/twl [11:51] $metacity-theme-viewer theme ainth that good , it only draws the title bar from the theme mentioned :s [11:51] vish: looks like http://gnome-look.org/content/preview.php?preview=1&id=119773&file1=119773-1.jpg&file2=&file3=&name=The+Widget+Laboratory [11:52] darkmatter: ooh , neat thanks [11:52] np. I still need to replace twf with it ;p [13:52] Hai! =) [14:02] hi everyone! [15:54] thorwil, Hai! :P [15:55] hi [16:03] thorwil, I released the cursors from my concept design. ;o [16:05] Icey-Net: so they can roam free and live their life in the wilderness? [16:05] thorwil, Exactly. :B [16:06] :B what's that? two tongues, split tongue or rabbit-teeth? [16:07] Bucktoofs. =P [16:09] I'll, hopefully be back later.