[04:16] <islington_> can I get some critique on a logo?
[04:37] <dashua> kwwii, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/metacity/+bug/535088
[04:38] <dashua> When you get up :)
[09:13] <Icey-Net> 'Ello.
[10:16] <thorwil> hi Icey-Net. so this your work: http://icey-net.deviantart.com/art/Ubuntu-Concept-Design-FULL-158871634
[10:16] <Icey-Net> thorwil, yes. :P
[10:18] <thorwil> the glowing underline effect is interesting
[10:18] <Icey-Net> thorwil, I like to call it the "indicator".
[10:24] <thorwil> Icey-Net: i moved your page to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Concepts/UbuntuConcept as that's where it belongs
[10:24] <Icey-Net> thorwil, Thanks. I couldn't quite understand how to do it.
[10:25] <knome> hey thorwil :)
[10:25] <thorwil> hi knome
[10:25] <Icey-Net> thorwil, I almost gave up on putting it on the wiki like 2 times... It's ridiculously confusing.
[10:25] <thorwil> Icey-Net: the More Actions menu has a Rename command
[10:26] <thorwil> Icey-Net: yes, i wish we had something more structured, with wysiwyg editing
[10:26] <Icey-Net> thorwil, the wysiwyg editor, while a nice additon, isn't quite what I had in mind.
[10:26] <Icey-Net> thorwil, The whole process of putting something up there is... confusing.
[10:26] <Icey-Net> Unnecessarily confusing.
[10:27] <thorwil> Icey-Net: like many mockups, yours has the problem that implementing it would require lots of changes all over the place. so far i never witnessed such a design convincing enough of the right people. you have to expect that nothing of this will ever happen
[10:28] <Icey-Net> thorwil, Lots of changes all over the place is the main principle of this design.
[10:29] <Icey-Net> thorwil, In order to advance, one must be adoptive to change.
[10:32] <thorwil> there's a professional design team at canonical. you have things happen in upstream projects, especially gnome. your dealing with rather small and close-knit circles of people who make things happen
[10:33] <Icey-Net> thorwil, Come again?
[10:33] <thorwil> and then it's not at all clear what would and wouldn't be "advance"
[10:35] <thorwil> nevermind
[10:35] <knome> ;)
[10:35] <Icey-Net> I'm not sure if the hands of said professional designers are tied or something, but frankly, there are many, many things that could and should have changed way before...
[10:36] <Icey-Net> While Lucid Lynx does look a lot better than previous versions, it could and should still be better.
[10:36] <knome> Icey-Net, whatever the facts are, the design team will pretty much stay with what they have.
[10:37] <Icey-Net> So, whatever they make is right and everyone else is wrong, I take it?
[10:37] <knome> Icey-Net, also because the design they've worked on is signed off by sabdfl, and they can't make modifications withtout mark accepting those
[10:37] <knome> Icey-Net, on large scales yes, you can affect details though and the overall look in slower pace.
[10:37] <Icey-Net> I'm sorry, who is he?
[10:38] <thorwil> Icey-Net: sabdfl = Mark Shuttleworth
[10:38] <knome> Icey-Net, mark shuttleworth.
[10:38] <Icey-Net> And he is? :P
[10:38] <Icey-Net> =D
[10:38] <knome> a millionaire and the ofunder of canonical and ubuntu.
[10:38] <knome> *founder
[10:38] <knome> the one who puts all the money in ubuntu.
[10:39] <knome> thus pretty much having all the power in ubuntu, if he wants to.
[10:39] <Icey-Net> So, basically, whatever he says is right and whatever anyone else thinks/says is outright wrong?
[10:40] <knome> umm, pretty much yes. but you can discuss about things.
[10:40] <thorwil> Icey-Net: so if you want your work to have an impact, you have much better chances if you address single details. or if you look for other projects that do not have a payed design team
[10:40] <knome> thorwil, payed==paid
[10:40] <knome> ;)
[10:41] <knome> or work with a derivative.
[10:41] <Icey-Net> Why do I sometimes forget how companies actually work? :P
[10:41] <knome> where you have much more control over things yourself.
[10:41] <Icey-Net> Work with a what?
[10:41] <thorwil> Icey-Net: far reaching changes on the desktop level would have to happen on the gnome level, anyway
[10:41] <knome> Icey-Net, derivative, like kubuntu, xubuntu or edubuntu.
[10:42] <Icey-Net> Meh...
[10:42] <thorwil> knome: arg, irregular irregularities falling out of my memory
[10:42] <knome> thorwil, Icey-Net: the changes for gnome itself must be proposed for the gnome team, not ubuntu
[10:43] <thorwil> that's what i was about
[10:43] <Icey-Net> And let me guess, they also have a 'professional' design team?
[10:43] <knome> thorwil, yup. got it ;)
[10:44] <knome> i don't know how much gnome employs people, but it's also not a structure where you can jump in and change everything just like that. besides, somebody has to implement those features and it takes time.
[10:44] <thorwil> Icey-Net: not directly. there are a number of important people working on gnome associated with companies
[10:46] <Icey-Net> So, the best way to get this done is to get a group of volunteer programmers... Do it, spread it, if it's a great success, tell Canonical "In your face"!
[10:46] <Icey-Net> Am I right? :P
[10:46] <knome> uh
[10:47] <knome> if it's a great success, rather ask ubuntu (canonical) whether they'd like to use it.
[10:47] <knome> if it's released as closed source or non-free, i don't know how many distros would use it anyway.
[10:47] <Icey-Net> Ok, I'm just kidding. But if I was dead serious about getting this done, the best thing to do would be to get it to gnome devs?
[10:48] <Icey-Net> Obviously it would be free. :/
[10:48] <vish> Icey-Net: yes , get a few devs to implement your ideas :)
[10:48] <Icey-Net> Good. Where do I get one of those?
[10:48] <knome> Icey-Net, you could propose the changes to be done. if they are not willing to, create a branch and get some devs do it in the branch, then propose merging :P
[10:48] <vish> then let it be adopted in the distributions
[10:48] <Icey-Net> =P
[10:48] <vish> Icey-Net: we have the gnome dev market ;)
[10:49] <Icey-Net> vish, will they work for a whopping price of 0.000 USD per hour?
[10:49]  * knome sings ..whisper words of wisdom: let it be
[10:49] <knome> Icey-Net, yes, if they like the features you propose.
[10:49] <vish> Icey-Net: they might  if they are inspired
[10:50] <Icey-Net> knome, inspired?
[10:50] <Icey-Net> wrong tab. :o
[10:50] <knome> Icey-Net, inspired as in the same thing i said :P
[10:50] <Icey-Net> knome, Ah yes.
[10:50] <Icey-Net> knome, Well, take a look at it. Do you think anyone will be inspired? :D
[10:50] <Icey-Net> Honestly, I've no idea.
[10:51] <knome> Icey-Net, i don't know. those things are matter of taste
[10:51] <thorwil> i'm not aware of a single successful floss software project started by someone who doesn't code himself
[10:51] <vish> Icey-Net: you will have better luck in getting new ideas , implemented in gnome-shell
[10:51] <knome> Icey-Net, i personally like a more traditional approach, but then again, i don't use gnome.
[10:51] <Icey-Net> knome, the design, graphics are obviously a matter of taste. As far as usability goes, that's what the main point is here.
[10:51] <vish> thorwil: +1
[10:52] <knome> Icey-Net, usability is also something people disagree about
[10:52] <Icey-Net> knome, No. People disagree on what they 'think' is usability.
[10:53] <Icey-Net> knome, To be quite frank, no single person without extensive research can say for sure what's and what isn't 'usability'.
[10:53] <Icey-Net> I don't know what's usability, so I'm not going to even pretend that I do.
[10:53] <vish> Icey-Net: yes , everyone can only /think/ , i dont think there is enough moolah to do extensive user-testing for every feature
[10:54] <Icey-Net> I do, however, have ideas on what could, in fact, be that.
[10:54] <knome> Icey-Net, usability can be different things for different people. is the style you propose good for a guy with bad eyesight? maybe not, since there's still quite a lot of little-contrasted stuff.
[10:54] <Icey-Net> knome, But then again, the buttons a menu items are rather large.
[10:54] <Icey-Net> and*
[10:55] <knome> Icey-Net, size isn't everything, if your eyesight really is bad. you just can't see stuff.
[10:55] <knome> anyway, that was not an argument against the stuff
[10:56] <Icey-Net> They invented glasses for that.
[10:56] <knome> it was just proving that there are lots of things to consider and what works for others might not work for you and the other way around
[10:56] <Icey-Net> I mean obviously not everyone will find it usable and not everyone will like it.
[10:56] <knome> there are people who can't see with even glasses. and glasses do not fix contrast.
[10:56] <Icey-Net> knome, There are monitor options that tone down contrast. :P
[10:57] <knome> Icey-Net, that's why you can't say its usability is great.
[10:57] <Icey-Net> Yes. I can not.
[10:57] <knome> and that's why people are free to disagree
[10:57] <Icey-Net> They are in fact free to do so.
[10:57] <darkmatter> that's not usability though. it's accessibility. different fish. and with that I depart the conversation
[10:58] <knome> and that's why i say people can disagree about usability and not only "think" they disagree.
[10:58] <Icey-Net> darkmatter, We're just babbling non-sense for the lulz. Don't mind us.
[10:58] <knome> w/e, you can't please everyone.
[10:58] <Icey-Net> knome, Well, if they don't think they disagree, they really don't disagree. As they're not even thinking of disagreeing.
[10:58] <knome> start somewhere and get some devs working on it.
[10:58] <Icey-Net> knome, Of course not.
[10:59] <Icey-Net> knome, I will do just that. :P
[10:59] <knome> if they're not willing, code yourself or think of some modifications, or start from a smaller piece.
[10:59] <Icey-Net> Why wouldn't someone be willing? :O
[10:59] <knome> in the end smaller changes are easier to understand and start working on.
[11:00] <knome> Icey-Net, if they don't agree with your proposal or just don't like it enough to start working on it for free?
[11:00] <knome> == if they lack the inspiration
[11:00] <Icey-Net> knome, Why would they disagree and just not like it? :O
[11:01] <knome> Icey-Net, because they are free to disagree. you remember that part? :P
[11:01] <Icey-Net> knome, No they're not. I don't remember. No. Never! D:
[11:01] <knome> plus, people are afraid of change.
[11:01] <Icey-Net> knome, People are always afraid, will always be afraid and have always been always been afaird.
[11:01] <knome> yes.
[11:01] <vish> Icey-Net: FYI , gnome-panel is dead/dying , you will not see any more improvements/enhancements , gnome-shell is a probably which can have some new changes..
[11:02] <Icey-Net> So? Does this mean that no change should ever be made?
[11:02] <Icey-Net> gnome-shell, in my opinion is... ehm... can I swear here? :P
[11:02] <knome> Icey-Net, nope. but if you can't code it yourself, ...
[11:02] <knome> Icey-Net, nobody has to do it for you.
[11:03] <vish> Icey-Net: everyone is still swearing , but all the experienced gnome devs are working on it ;)
[11:03] <Icey-Net> knome, What?! Everyone has to do it for me! :O This is Iceman! SPARTAAA!!! :O
[11:03] <darkmatter> vish: they're still improving/maintaining gnome-panel for the time being, since several distros are unlikely to switch over to that god awful shell even at gunpoint :P
[11:04] <vish> darkmatter: i meant in terms of enhancements :) bug fixes will go on
[11:04] <Icey-Net> darkmatter, I wont ever use gnome-shell. It has become a matter of principle.
[11:04] <vish> Icey-Net: tell me that in 2yrs ;p
[11:04] <knome> Icey-Net, feel free to come and discuss with me constructively once you've acknowledged you're not the king of the world.
[11:04] <Icey-Net> vish, In 2 years I'll see how Microsoft has pulled off another eye-candy OS that everyone will drool over.
[11:05] <Icey-Net> vish, Which I would be willing to pay another 200 bucks for.
[11:05] <Icey-Net> Forgetting all about the problems of gnome and whatnot.
[11:05] <darkmatter> vish: there are enhancements. two days ago iirc they fixed the notification applet to force ordering (kinda like fedora does but slightly different code)
[11:05] <Icey-Net> knome, I'm the king of the world!! D:
[11:06] <vish> darkmatter: that bug patch was in waiting for nearly 9-12 months ;)
[11:06] <Icey-Net> knome, P.S. I am, for the most part, just talking non-sense. =D
[11:06] <darkmatter> vish: what bug doesn't? :P
[11:06] <darkmatter> brb
[11:14] <darkmatter> vish: there are still some fairly obvious bugs floating around from ten years ago. it's awesome ;)
[11:15] <vish> darkmatter: yeah some are really frustrating too , well  c'est la gnome vie :/
[11:15] <darkmatter> hehe
[11:18] <darkmatter> vish: on a plus note, I finally got metacity to cooperate and give me 3 pixel rounded corners!
[11:19] <Icey-Net> darkmatter, Oh boy!
[11:19] <darkmatter> now on to more fun drawing ops
[11:19] <Icey-Net> darkmatter, 3 pixels! 3!
[11:19] <Icey-Net> darkmatter, An entire 3! O_o
[11:19] <Icey-Net> darkmatter, Is my sarcasm too mean? =(
[11:20] <darkmatter> Icey-Net: yes, instead of a highly pixelated 5
[11:20] <Icey-Net> darkmatter, Great success!
[11:21] <darkmatter> now I need to work on lighting and shadows. title rendering and designing some purtay multi-layered buttons
[11:21] <Icey-Net> darkmatter, Err...
[11:21] <Icey-Net> darkmatter, Yeah, yeah. Definitely.
[11:23] <Icey-Net> It is almost as if my neck is trying to murder me...
[11:23] <Icey-Net> it hurts... a lot.
[11:23] <darkmatter> Icey-Net: my back has been stabbing me in the back since wednesday. fun times
[11:24] <Icey-Net> Oh, gotta love that.
[11:24] <Icey-Net> Wait, have you guys even seen the concept design I made?
[11:25] <Icey-Net> I know thorwil has seen it.
[11:25] <darkmatter> Icey-Net: yeah, I saw it on DA earlier
[11:25] <Icey-Net> darkmatter, Really?
[11:25] <Icey-Net> darkmatter, You just stumbled upon it or something?
[11:26] <darkmatter> Icey-Net: yeah. I was browsing DA out of boredom
[11:26] <Icey-Net> pfft
[11:26] <Icey-Net> stupid IRC client. -.-
[11:26] <Icey-Net> darkmatter, Did you say something?
[11:27] <darkmatter> Icey-Net: yeah. I said I was browsing DA out of boredom when I saw it
[11:27] <Icey-Net> darkmatter, Are you being sarcastic? =.=
[11:28] <darkmatter> no. I browse DA out of boredom frequently :P
[11:28] <Icey-Net> darkmatter, Oh...
[11:28] <Icey-Net> darkmatter, How do you like the cursors?
[11:28] <Icey-Net> darkmatter, I'm particulary worried about that. They're the first cursors I've made. Ever.
[11:29] <darkmatter> Icey-Net: the cursors are awesome. they go nicely with ubuntu's new branding imo
[11:29] <Icey-Net> darkmatter, New branding now?
[11:29] <vish> darkmatter: screenshot [of the new borders]?
[11:30] <darkmatter> vish: sec
[11:30] <darkmatter> I stole the buttons from elementary as place holders :P
[11:32] <Icey-Net> darkmatter, Thief! What kind of a person steals stuff from elementary? :l
[11:36] <Icey-Net> darkmatter, You are aware that I am, in fact, just messin' with ya, yes?
[11:36] <darkmatter> aye
[11:37] <Icey-Net> Wewt. O_o
[11:38] <darkmatter> vish: sorry, I had to find a wally light enough to get a clear look at them. ignore the font and crap. placeholder evils :P http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/9742/screenshotyu.png
[11:41] <Icey-Net> darkmatter, Hisss! :o You put me on the screenshot! :O
[11:41] <vish> darkmatter: hmm , still not the best :(   , but why is the border towards the top tapering inward?  it that by design or due to lighter colors towards the top fooling the eyes?
[11:41] <vish> rather darker colors maybe..
[11:44] <darkmatter> vish: it's my transparency settings and the fact that I still need to apply the drawing ops to the titlebar. I just started on those. I need to round/fade the corners of the highlight, add a slight gradient, etch the text (and embolden it slightly). move the title to the left, drop the menu button, blah blah
[11:45] <vish> ;)
[11:45] <darkmatter> vish: at least they're not pixelated :P
[11:46] <darkmatter> I needed to start on the metacity before continuing on the gtk. because otherwise it'll look like crap
[11:47] <darkmatter> vish: I just wish the drawing ops for metacity were simpler. it takes forever to code :/
[11:48] <vish> darkmatter: is there a metacity viewer , something like twf?
[11:49] <darkmatter> vish. theres a built in viewer to run from a terminal. there's also the widget laboratory. it's like the widget factory but does both gtk and metacity
[11:49] <vish> kinda irritating playing with metacity and having to reselect the theme ,just to check how it looks..
[11:50] <darkmatter> https://launchpad.net/twl
[11:51] <vish> $metacity-theme-viewer theme ainth that good , it only draws the title bar from the theme mentioned :s
[11:51] <darkmatter> vish: looks like http://gnome-look.org/content/preview.php?preview=1&id=119773&file1=119773-1.jpg&file2=&file3=&name=The+Widget+Laboratory
[11:52] <vish> darkmatter: ooh , neat thanks
[11:52] <darkmatter> np. I still need to replace twf with it ;p
[13:52] <Icey-Net> Hai! =)
[14:02] <SilentDream> hi everyone!
[15:54] <Icey-Net> thorwil, Hai! :P
[15:55] <thorwil> hi
[16:03] <Icey-Net> thorwil, I released the cursors from my concept design. ;o
[16:05] <thorwil> Icey-Net: so they can roam free and live their life in the wilderness?
[16:05] <Icey-Net> thorwil, Exactly. :B
[16:06] <thorwil> :B  what's that? two tongues, split tongue or rabbit-teeth?
[16:07] <Icey-Net> Bucktoofs. =P
[16:09] <Icey-Net> I'll, hopefully be back later.