[09:44] <knome> iainfarrell, hey. poking you again :P
[10:00] <zniavre> good morning
[10:00] <zniavre> 	GtkImage::x-ayatana-indicator-dynamic = 1 what is this option for please?
[10:01] <iainfarrell> hey knome I've just been in the room and seen it's being worked on! :)
[10:01] <iainfarrell> I'll send it over as soon as it's readt
[10:01] <iainfarrell> ready even
[10:01] <iainfarrell> what address is best for you?
[10:03] <darkmatter> http://www.geek.com/articles/chips/commodore-computers-make-a-return-this-year-20100319/
[10:04] <zniavre> éééé it almost looks as my first comp. "Vic20"
[10:05] <darkmatter> aye. good old commodore style but more streamlined
[10:05] <knome> iainfarrell, open@knome.fi
[10:46] <darkmatter> bleh. must find a way to drop the colored crap on comboboxes in murrine without affecting focus color :/
[11:03]  * vish starts banging for a "t" and "b" atleast ;p
[11:32] <knome> iainfarrell, you there?
[11:33] <iainfarrell> hello knome
[11:35] <knome> iainfarrell, thanks for the mail. could we have the same logo with the ubuntu "picture mark" as if we would use it as is?
[11:36] <knome> iainfarrell, (then i would be able to replace it with our logo and see how it looks like)
[11:40] <knome> iainfarrell, there has been some serious discussion about using comic sans as the typeface with a handdrawn mouse to appeal more childish people. would that be ok as well?
[11:44] <iainfarrell> hi knome I don't really understand what you mean by "could we have the same logo with the ubuntu "picture mark" as if we would use it as is?"
[11:44] <iainfarrell> can you explain again?
[11:45] <knome> iainfarrell, can we have the ubuntu logo svg with x?
[11:45] <knome> iainfarrell, with the COF
[11:45] <knome> iainfarrell, in the top right :)
[11:45] <knome> iainfarrell, and with the x as well :)
[11:45] <iainfarrell> I can send you copy of our Ubuntu logo but you can't use the circle of friends, in the same way that kubuntu is using their own circular logo
[11:46] <iainfarrell> but I can send it over for reference
[11:46] <iainfarrell> so you get your mouse in the right place
[11:46] <knome> yes, we won't use the COF
[11:46] <knome> but just so we get the logo aligned the same way
[11:48] <iainfarrell> yeah
[11:48] <iainfarrell> I've sent a PDF
[11:48] <iainfarrell> that's a start
[11:48] <iainfarrell> I can sent another file if need be
[11:48] <iainfarrell> but that's our position guide
[11:48] <iainfarrell> which should be useful
[11:48] <knome> okay, that's fine
[11:48] <knome> cheers
[11:49] <knome> what 'bout the comic sans alternative?
[12:02] <thorwil> knome: today, that sounds like a really great idea
[12:05] <thorwil> regarding appealing to children, you could learn something from http://www.squeak.org/Screenshots/ , perhaps
[12:15] <knome> thorwil, ;)
[13:11] <zniavre> is it possible to get the first shot of ubuntu-moni icons ? ( ifind the first message icon much nicer than actual one )
[13:11] <zniavre> moni>mono*
[13:13] <kwwii> zniavre: not sure what you mean
[13:13] <kwwii> zniavre: they are in lucid and launchpad
[13:13] <kwwii> zniavre: but any submissions need to be approved
[13:14] <zniavre> i do not want to change anything !  :o)
[13:15] <zniavre> if they changed this icon they must be right
[13:15] <zniavre> but i still prefer the one of the first days of message-icon
[13:16] <kwwii> ahhh, so you want the original version?
[13:17] <kwwii> you can look through the history of commits, you might find it there
[13:17] <kwwii> not sure when they were changed becuase we have changed them so often
[13:19] <zniavre> 0.0.6 gives the "original" version thank you
[13:20] <zniavre> the first one did not look good for you ?
[13:21] <zniavre> i can see for 0.0.7 you changed the message icons
[13:35] <kwwii> zniavre: well, the whole team evaluates them
[13:55] <vish> zniavre>  GtkImage::x-ayatana-indicator-dynamic = 1  what does this do btw?
[13:59] <vish> oh wrong nick ping , zniavre_ ^
[14:03] <vish> ah , nvm i think i figured it out..
[14:10] <kwwii> vish: that turns on the wide icon
[14:11] <vish> kwwii: yeah , understood it after you mentioned it :) , you should consider adding comments in the gtkrc ;-)
[14:17] <kwwii> vish: yeah, probably a good idea
[14:51] <zniavre_> i don't really understand what is wide icons?
[14:52] <zniavre_> small arrow into messaging-indicator is one of this wide icon?
[15:52] <vish> zniavre_: the battery icons are 32x22
[16:07] <zniavre_> ha ok understand what [wiiiiide] is tank you
[16:07] <zniavre_> thank*
[16:12] <vish> np..
[17:40] <vish> kwwii: have you seen this > Bug #549268  .. is this something you want to do by default?
[19:25] <knome> thorwil, you around?
[19:25] <thorwil> knome: perhaps
[19:25] <knome> hehe
[21:06] <dashua> vish, Awesome folders :)
[21:08] <vish> dashua: well its the color UX wanted ;)  but it might really piss off a lot of folks making changes so late ;p
[21:08] <dashua> I love it
[21:08] <dashua> Much closer to Breathe
[21:08] <vish> hehe ;p
[21:08] <dashua> A little darker
[21:09] <vish> dashua: has the update landed? or are you pulling from bzr?
[21:09] <dashua> This is the sexxiest desktop I've had in a while =/
[21:09] <dashua> bzr
[21:09] <vish> ah , righto..
[21:10] <vish> the old yellow was a bit of a misfit with the new theme
[21:11] <troy_s> vish: Screenshot?
[21:11] <troy_s> vish: Or PNG?
[21:12] <troy_s> As of my last update, they still look like tango clunky ass square boxes.
[21:12] <vish> well still tango.. just a change of the color , seems more redder.. i have to still use it though :D
[21:13] <troy_s> vish: Link?
[21:13] <troy_s> vish: Side note, have you seen the default Nexus One's design for various elements?
[21:13] <troy_s> vish: Gallery is absolutely lovely. Exactly what we should have done say, oh... three years ago.
[21:13] <dashua> troy_s, http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/50079/screenshot_hUL9L5.png
[21:14] <troy_s> Oh nice... a return to gloss.
[21:14] <troy_s> uh.
[21:14]  * troy_s headsmack.
[21:14] <troy_s> Just bloody daft.
[21:15] <troy_s> Anywho... zomgawesome ahead. How do you say it... "Lucid is gunna rock with bling bling rock."
[21:15] <vish> troy_s: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/humanity/release/annotate/head%3A/Humanity/places/64/folder.svg
[21:15] <troy_s> vish: Got to love those direct links out of bzr.
[21:16] <vish> troy_s: not glossier , but just the icons got bloodier .. ;)
[21:16] <troy_s> Whoever has the 1999 gloss obsession should take themselves out back and give themselves a good old fashioned Old Yeller'ing.
[21:17] <vish> the more i look at tango icons the more i think we need to stop using the guidelines ;p
[21:17] <troy_s> vish: And that gloss glare thing across them. Exceptionally lame to the nth degree.
[21:17] <troy_s> vish: Tango always has stunk.
[21:17] <troy_s> vish: Period.
[21:18] <troy_s> vish: Crayola outline outline heavy bold bold outline so that it works for 'everyone' on 'every desktop' 'always'.
[21:18] <troy_s> vish: Rancid beef.
[21:18] <vish> troy_s: heh , i was just typing this > the only advantage i can see it that i makes the icons usable in both light/dark backgrounds
[21:18] <troy_s> vish: And yes, it is a curious palette choice. Or at least seems to me given that context.
[21:19] <troy_s> vish: Usable
[21:19] <troy_s> vish: Usability worries are what happens when there is epic design and art failure.
[21:19] <troy_s> Mark Boulton said it best.
[21:20] <troy_s> vish: http://www.markboulton.co.uk/journal/comments/aesthetic-usability-effect
[21:20] <troy_s> vish: Last paragraph.
[21:20] <troy_s> vish: Besides, like it or not, according to the study, aesthetics trump usability by a wide fat margin.
[21:20] <vish> ah , nice words of wisdom :)
[21:21] <troy_s> vish: He clarifies later in comments.
[21:21] <troy_s> vish: But the two are really of the same creature.
[21:22] <darkmatter> ya must not have seen tango in a while, it's no more ugly than any other *nix icons. which reminds me. I need to dump gnome for kde now that gnome officially sucks more than supergloss
[21:22] <thorwil> vish: so there's talk about warning colors on ayatana and the folders become redder??
[21:23] <vish> thorwil: "wasnt my choice" :)
[21:23] <troy_s> vish: Well keep up the fight good vish. Hopefully you can make it to the 12th round.
[21:24] <SandGorgon> hey guys.. submitted a brainstorm to review font hinting patents - http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/24276/. They might be expiring (around the world) in May,2010. What do you think ?
[21:24] <vish> troy_s:  if you watch ayatana mail , the word accessibility is thrown in too often .. i kinda got sick of hearing it to the point that we probably need a different OS to it to be accessible  :/
[21:24] <thorwil> it's depressing how meaningless the folder icons are, not matter what the style, anyway
[21:24] <troy_s> SandGorgon: I believe there are several patents at issue there.
[21:24] <troy_s> SandGorgon: Last time I looked into it, it was specifically regarding how the virtual machine hinting engine implements the byte code.
[21:25] <SandGorgon> troy_s, true.. and they have all been reviewed by several people... latest was by ghostscript in their bug http://bugs.ghostscript.com/show_bug.cgi?id=690621
[21:25] <troy_s> SandGorgon: And uh... No one really cares about brainstorm. It's a pressure valve methinks.
[21:26] <SandGorgon> troy_s, ack on that as well .. but this is something that goes beyond code. There needs to be an actual lawyer review
[21:26] <troy_s> SandGorgon: What really needs to happen is for someone to actually get sued in Free Software so that the EFF gets behind them and slaps Bilski in the face of the prosecution.
[21:26] <troy_s> SandGorgon: It just needs to get fixed, and Bilski is the solution.
[21:26] <thorwil> troy_s: i think it's a mistake to see usability and aesthetics as separate matters
[21:27] <troy_s> SandGorgon: Once Bilski climbs up another level it's done.
[21:27] <troy_s> thorwil: As I said, one and the same creature. But in the end, Usability is what comes up when there is epic art and design failure.
[21:27] <troy_s> thorwil: It's all tripe.
[21:27] <darkmatter> vish: accessibility.. where? (me lols uncontrollably) accessibility is even more of a myth in foss than usability is :D
[21:27] <troy_s> thorwil: But in the end, pure aesthetics seem to have quite an edge over 'pure usability' (visualize that massive remote control with the huge buttons for numbers)
[21:28] <troy_s> thorwil: So maybe there is a slight division there?
[21:28] <troy_s> thorwil: At least I'd like to think that we could give two samples of remote controls each with identical numbers of buttons and looks but different scales.
[21:29] <troy_s> thorwil: And arguably, the more diminutive one (likely because of contextual similarity) would be given the aesthetic edge? PURE speculation, but I don't think I'd be far off the mark.
[21:29] <thorwil> troy_s: there's just people using difficult terms without even getting close to understanding them. design, engineering, usability, asthetics all flow into each other
[21:29] <troy_s> thorwil: Absolutely.
[21:29] <vish> darkmatter: nah , for every idea someone mentions.. there is another saying "what about the blind/deaf/dumb/colorblind".. well , they need a different setup not necessary that the default needs to be the right way for them too
[21:30] <troy_s> vish: And in fact you hit on a key point I believe.
[21:30]  * vish might be a bigot ;p
[21:30] <thorwil> troy_s: the difference you are looking for comes back to goals and audience ;)
[21:30] <troy_s> vish: Design for everyone is exactly design for no one.
[21:30] <troy_s> vish: It serves _everyone_ absolutely poorly.
[21:30] <vish> +1
[21:31] <troy_s> vish: I'd bet that if we put our collective free software brains together we could design a near utopian computing experience for a westernized individual with severe visual impairment.
[21:31] <troy_s> vish: Or one for impaired motor ability or erratic motor ability. From the absolute start (how to turn on the computer?) right down to the final logout.
[21:31] <troy_s> vish: But of course, it's easier to just say 'Everyone' and give a really half assed half baked attempt at that.
[21:32] <troy_s> vish: Hell... I dare say that there are likely aesthetic decisions you could make for a given demographic with visual impairment.
[21:32] <troy_s> vish: It's a fascinating topic really.
[21:34] <darkmatter> vish: the point is I've yet to see a single os (or any project in general) properly implement _basic_ accessibility on any meaningful level. I've bitched about it for 10 years, it's gotten worse not better
[21:38] <vish> darkmatter: seriously though, accessibility affects what percentage of users?
[21:40] <vish> darkmatter: it *is* needed , but we need to do a version which is good enough for them specifically , not try to get it right in the default
[21:41] <darkmatter> vish: enough. one must remember that accessibility goes beyond the commonly considered colorblind/blind/def/impaired motor function.
[21:41] <vish> "not try" , basically , since we are failing to get it right ;)
[21:41] <darkmatter> vish: yes and no
[21:44] <troy_s> vish: Youtube the Gallery in the Nexus. It's impressive as it is a very clever way to get away from a folder. I think you might dig it.
[21:45] <troy_s> vish: Sadly, I was going to animate an Ubuntu mock with something very similar - case in point those 'good ideas' are a dime a dozen :)
[21:45] <darkmatter> the thing is there is a lot of co-dependence that we don't consider by default. by not getting it 'right' we fail. to build a version that's 'good enough' for a particular group would otherwise require rewriting a lot of code, not just changing defaults.
[21:45] <darkmatter> troy_s: I've been arguing against folders for... how long? :P
[21:46]  * vish checks the tube
[21:46] <troy_s> darkmatter: Problem is... I think _everyone_ in free software agrees that the paradigm is stinky.
[21:46] <troy_s> Aside from maybe the folks peddling outline outline outline outline land.
[21:47] <darkmatter> lol
[21:47] <troy_s> darkmatter: The issue is creating a compelling vision without them.
[21:47] <troy_s> darkmatter: And _that_ is what Gallery does.
[21:47] <troy_s> darkmatter: Hell... I couldn't count the number of times that people have discussed the idea... KDE _almost_ does it already.
[21:47] <troy_s> darkmatter: But again, the 'good idea' is somewhat empty in value (hello patents) while the execution seems to be everything.
[21:51] <troy_s> vish: Did you see it?
[21:51] <darkmatter> troy_s: I think I mentioned (many many many many many many moons ago) on how we need to drop so-called file management in general. \
[21:52] <troy_s> darkmatter: And again, many many folks have arrived there.
[21:52] <troy_s> darkmatter: It's not exactly a 'hey wow genius'. It's about execution. And _that_ is where the compelling and emotional aspect is missing. It is _how_.
[21:52] <darkmatter> but as a general rule it takes a more activity/gallery/library approach, part generic part task specific
[21:53] <troy_s> The original Android mock with the photos on a table with thin depth of field is something that should have been embraced ages ago. We could still make an end run with it.
[21:53] <troy_s> Sadly I can't find it.
[21:54] <darkmatter> troy_s: I know. the point is even when _sane_ execution is shown/demonstrated, the people responsible for implementing it throw out 'good execution' in exchange for 'we're lazy asses, lets dump the idea and add TABS' :P
[21:54] <troy_s> It was distinct and very much... an artistic representation of photography inside of the shell.
[21:56] <vish> troy_s: works pretty well for fotos , probably even vids.. not sure how it would be for documents , but is really interesting way it has been done , as you mention not a new idea , but well implemented
[21:57] <troy_s> vish: I think it works terrific for all sorts of data - especially if we have representational models - pdf thumbs, ODF thumbs, images, movies, etc...
[21:57] <troy_s> vish: Then roll that into a Gloobus preview of some creative sort (what that is would remain to be seen but clearly it should be part of the shell)
[21:58] <troy_s> vish: And I believe that in _that_ we have the beginning of a true desktop innovation that is ... well ... deeply moored in that 'well duh' school of discovery.
[21:58] <vish> troy_s: if it was for documents it would probably become just a cluster of icons or gibberish previews , not sure if it text documents can convey the image properly , unless the previews are really big or we use gloobus ;)
[21:59] <troy_s> vish: So you are saying a really craptastic Tango icon is better than a higher density thumbnail that scales as you hover over?
[21:59] <troy_s> vish: You actually _asked_ a design question there. Pretty sure we could solve it.
[21:59] <troy_s> vish: It isn't 'not sure if...' but rather 'how do we?'
[21:59] <vish> troy_s: nope , saying it needs to be done well :)
[22:00] <troy_s> vish: Agree. The kernel of your question though is a cornerstone of a truly interesting innovation there. How do we?
[22:00] <troy_s> vish: If everyone on the Ubuntu Art list grabbed hold of that problem and it was framed properly (who, goal, etc.) I bet there would be some _extremely_ interesting results.
[22:02] <troy_s> vish: I dare say that the maturity level in this regard may have been reached that there might be more than a few people to take it seriously.
[22:02] <darkmatter> vish. even longhorn had used a similar approach before it was scrapped for being to 'radical' a change for windows. the folders were gone, file icons had gone, etc, and it wasn't just a dreamweaver mockup. I don't know if the old pdc videos are available, but it was similar to the gallery
[22:03] <vish> win7 does something similar but still has the "folder" covering them , which blows ;p
[22:04] <troy_s> vish: Because god knows the number of people that actually use computers these days even know what a folder is right?
[22:04] <troy_s> vish: I wonder how many people really have touched a folder in real life. LOL.
[22:05] <vish> on that note >  http://www.baekdal.com/notes/work/icon-change-metaphor/
[22:05] <troy_s> vish: And a distinctly Libre twist - for what culture?
[22:06] <troy_s> vish: Metaphors are intrinsically cultural. If you make some sort of agreed upon conclusion, I'd bet dollars for doughnuts it's ethnocentric.
[22:06] <troy_s> vish: And a biting edge on that is that if there is one truly groundbreaking innovation to be had there, it is the idea that _we_ could implement locales based metaphors and such overnight.
[22:06] <darkmatter> longhorn also did stacks before osx did. kinda like the libraries in 7 but different. it was a neat implementation too, because you could rifle through stacks
[22:07] <troy_s> vish: Show the big boys how absolutely tragic their egocentric development is.
[22:07] <darkmatter> it was a nice metaphor that I wish they had kept, because it felt 'real world' as opposed to artificially structured
[22:07] <troy_s> vish: I bet you would be hard pressed to get anything other than "Well that's not what Apple and Microsoft does."
[22:07] <troy_s> ;)
[22:07] <troy_s> Ok. out.
[22:10] <vish> oooh , the gallery tilts with the viewing direction :)
[22:12] <vish> kinda pointless but nice touch ;p
[22:45] <troy_s> vish: Yes. The world will likely change when Nintendo debuts the 3DS.
[22:45] <troy_s> vish: If Nintendo carries on with tracking, you _might_ get to see something like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_P4gyjf5tQ
[22:46] <troy_s> vish: I don't think it is a huge leap.