[00:00] <ubuntujenkins> it is short but its good to get a mention
[00:00] <humphreybc> we didn't have a link to give alan on information on how to use quickshot simply because we hadn't got it ready
[00:00] <ubuntu_> OMG! Writing Freeze!?
[00:00] <humphreybc> but once it's ready and the links are in place etc, i'll email him the link to wiki/website/omgubungu or whatever so he can update the link
[00:01] <humphreybc> ubuntu_ damn right
[00:01] <ubuntu_> can't change my nick :S
[00:01] <godbyk> humphreybc: I'm pushing a fix for the small-caps (bold, italic, etc.) issue. can you skim through the manual and see if it fixes 'em all?
[00:01] <ubuntu_> OMG! my time to start translating
[00:01] <humphreybc> sure
[00:02] <humphreybc> godbyk have you done the conventions?
[00:02] <humphreybc> an hour to go now
[00:02] <ubuntujenkins> "/msg nickserv <nickname>" i think ubuntu_
[00:02] <godbyk> humphreybc: look for yourself.
[00:02] <humphreybc> (this milestone is almost more important than final release!)
[00:02] <ubuntu_> i know, but it isn't working :S
[00:02] <godbyk> let me know if there are more conventions that need mentioning.
[00:02] <humphreybc> okay okay it's compiling now
[00:02] <humphreybc> (takes ages now)
[00:03] <godbyk> grilled hamburgers.  yum!
[00:03] <ubuntujenkins> can i have one?
[00:03] <ubuntu_> btw, I can confim that evince image rendering bug is solved
[00:03] <godbyk> nope! all mine!
[00:03] <godbyk> ubuntu_: awesome!
[00:04] <godbyk> ubuntu_: did they push an evince update or did you compile manually?
[00:05] <ubuntujenkins> It is 0 days, 0 hours, 54 minutes and 52 seconds until Thursday, 1 April 2010 (UTC time)
[00:07] <humphreybc> THANKYOU LUKE
[00:07] <humphreybc> lol
[00:07] <humphreybc> ubuntu_ has it landed in Lucid already??
[00:07] <ubuntujenkins> let me know if you want an update :P
[00:09] <humphreybc> when are we taking out the TODOs?
[00:11] <ubuntu_> humphreybc: yeah
[00:12] <godbyk> humphreybc: you don't have to take them out.
[00:12] <ubuntu_> lol, actually where I'm it's already 00:11 :P Portugal ftw!
[00:12] <godbyk> I change one line of code and they all go away.
[00:12] <humphreybc> ok
[00:13]  * ubuntujenkins is getting tired
[00:14] <ubuntu_> humphreybc: you're still awake? I've been following your tweets
[00:14] <humphreybc> yep, i'm still awake
[00:14] <humphreybc> must be a good 30 hours now without sleep
[00:15] <humphreybc> i don't feel that bad... kinda sore back though from sitting at a computer
[00:15] <ubuntu_> humphreybc: think. just one more. awesome work. will be honored to translate :-)
[00:15] <ubuntu_> and take ss
[00:15] <humphreybc> :)
[00:18] <ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX: which screenshot needs changing can i do it?
[00:18]  * humphreybc enjoys moving things around in latex while it compiles and watching the PDF update live
[00:19] <godbyk> figure 3.6 has part of the text smeared out.  that's no good. we need to replace it with fake text if it's a security issue or something.
[00:20] <humphreybc> oh yeah, btw, not promising anything but we may have a little feature/link to our website on ubuntu.com
[00:20] <godbyk> the screenshots shouldn't be censored that way because it's confusing (and looks bad).
[00:21] <ubuntujenkins> godbyk: it was smeared by hand because it was a uni network we are redoing the english screenshots there are so many ui changes
[00:22] <godbyk> ubuntujenkins: I understand. Just saying that we shouldn't do that for future screenshots. :)
[00:23] <ubuntujenkins> thats fine i can redo that one now that i am at home, i can remane the network
[00:23] <Red_HamsterX> ubuntujenkins, feel free to fix anything you can. I'm not aware of any issues with the references (aside from the fact that we made the nm-applet stuff bigger)
[00:23] <Red_HamsterX> And the censored one.
[00:23] <Red_HamsterX> Just use your real network name. =P
[00:23] <Red_HamsterX> Nobody will know it's yours.
[00:24] <Red_HamsterX> Or give it something generic, but real-looking, like "John Smith's House".
[00:25] <Red_HamsterX> Because we won't be able to ensure that all volunteers will be able to rename their networks.
[00:26] <Red_HamsterX> Lemme know what I can do.
[00:26] <ubuntujenkins> have we changed it to godbyks server in the code?
[00:31] <Red_HamsterX> No, I thought you were going to do that.
[00:33] <ubuntujenkins> is it in line 363 right
[00:33] <ubuntujenkins> and its changing to http://screenshots.ubuntu-manual.org/
[00:34] <humphreybc> so an ETA for when we'll have a working Live CD image and a release PPA?
[00:37] <Red_HamsterX> That's the right URL.
[00:37] <ubuntujenkins> what version number?
[00:37] <Red_HamsterX> I don't know where my address is located, though.
[00:37]  * Red_HamsterX greps.
[00:37] <ubuntujenkins> humphreybc: 1-1.5 hours
[00:38] <ubuntujenkins> it takes time to get the cd to godbyk
[00:38] <Red_HamsterX> Yeah, 636 is the only place where it's defined.
[00:39] <ubuntujenkins> i typed that backwards :P
[00:39] <Red_HamsterX> I figured it was what you meant.
[00:49]  * Red_HamsterX marks some of the bugfixes as published.
[00:52] <humphreybc> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/04/ubuntu-manual-team-to-provide-manual-on.html
[00:52] <ubuntujenkins> humphreybc: if you every set up another project don't put two emails for maintaier it causes no end of problems
[00:52] <humphreybc> lol
[00:53] <ubuntujenkins> what an audio tape whos reading it?
[00:53] <humphreybc> :)
[00:53] <humphreybc> read the press release, damnit
[00:53] <Red_HamsterX> https://bugs.launchpad.net/quickshot/+bug/552544 I can't mark this as closed since, while I observe that the line has been fixed, I haven't tested it. Your bug, ubuntujenkins.
[00:53] <manualbot> Launchpad bug 552544 in quickshot "Error on creating new user with Ubuntu Live CD" [Medium,Fix committed]
[00:53] <humphreybc> http://ubuntu-manual.org/?audiobook
[00:54] <ubuntujenkins> whos  Marlee Matlin.?
[00:54] <ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX: marked as fixed
[00:55] <Red_HamsterX> Then we have closed all open bugs. Yay
[00:55] <Red_HamsterX> That article looks quasi-believable.
[00:55] <humphreybc> ;)
[00:56] <Red_HamsterX> ...That *is* a joke, right?
[00:56] <humphreybc> if you find out who Marlee Matlin is, you'll figure it out
[00:57] <Red_HamsterX> I know the name and enough to question you.
[00:57] <Red_HamsterX> But I also know you're crazy.
[00:57] <Red_HamsterX> And you may have access to vast sums of riches.
[00:57] <ubuntujenkins> right quickshot will be in the ppa in about 10-15 mins
[01:00] <godbyk> TIME'S UP, EVERYONE.  PENCILS DOWN!
[01:00] <humphreybc> heh
[01:00] <humphreybc> man flash is screwed on my lucid install
[01:00]  * Red_HamsterX continues writing, frantically.
[01:00]  * godbyk slaps Red_HamsterX on the wrist with a ruler.
[01:01] <ubuntujenkins> godbyk: in ten minutes once the cd is built and checked how do i get it to you?
[01:01] <Red_HamsterX> Upload it using Quickshot!
[01:01] <Red_HamsterX> ...Yeah, no.
[01:02] <Red_HamsterX> FTP/SFTP?
[01:03]  * humphreybc really needs to fix this flash shit
[01:03] <godbyk> ubuntujenkins: good question.
[01:03] <Red_HamsterX> Torrent?
[01:03] <ubuntujenkins> godbyk: said ftp before
[01:03] <godbyk> Let me see if I can set up an ftp login for you or something.
[01:04] <Red_HamsterX> I could run a tracker.
[01:04] <ubuntujenkins> thanks
[01:05] <ubuntujenkins> do i need any thing extra installed? whilst i am waiting for it to build?
[01:05] <Red_HamsterX> For FTP? No.
[01:05] <ubuntujenkins> just double checking
[01:05] <Red_HamsterX> You can use Gnome's Connect to Server feature or the 'ftp' utility.
[01:05] <Red_HamsterX> (Places -> Connect to Server)
[01:05] <ubuntujenkins> right the packages in the ppa have built, just need to be published
[01:06] <ubuntujenkins> cool never done ftp before
[01:06] <Red_HamsterX> I'll boot the test box to make sure it works as expected.
[01:06] <Red_HamsterX> You can use Connect to Server for SFTP, too.
[01:06] <Red_HamsterX> And some other things.
[01:06] <Red_HamsterX> It's well-integrated.
[01:06] <ubuntujenkins> I will be burning to my memory stick to check it
[01:07] <Red_HamsterX> You'll see it appear in all Nautilus (and anything else that supports Gnime VFS) windows.
[01:07] <Red_HamsterX> I meant the PPA. =P
[01:07] <Red_HamsterX> Gnome*
[01:07] <godbyk> ubuntujenkins: I'm setting up an ftp for you.
[01:07] <ubuntujenkins> thanks godbyk
[01:09] <ubuntujenkins> ok the cd is made but... my laptop has locked up it should unfrezze soon
[01:09] <godbyk> yikes!
[01:09] <ubuntujenkins> strange how i can always use xchat
[01:09] <ubuntujenkins> 696 mb spot on team
[01:10] <godbyk> awesome
[01:10] <Red_HamsterX> Nice!
[01:10] <ubuntujenkins> i ripped out ubuntu one at the last minute
[01:10] <Red_HamsterX> Hmm... The Quickshot download link in the wiki is dead.
[01:11] <Red_HamsterX> Where should it point?
[01:11] <ubuntujenkins> thats because there is no cd
[01:11] <ubuntujenkins> ask godbyk
[01:11] <Red_HamsterX> Oh, it's for the CD.
[01:11] <ubuntujenkins> ppa stuff below
[01:11] <Red_HamsterX> The button text mad eme think it was for the .deb for some reason.
[01:12] <humphreybc> okay
[01:12] <humphreybc> so what happens now that we've reached writing freeze?
[01:12] <ubuntujenkins> start on the next one
[01:12] <Red_HamsterX> I think that's your call, leader-man. =P
[01:12] <humphreybc> lol
[01:13] <humphreybc> when will quickshot be ready?
[01:13] <Red_HamsterX> Once it's uploaded, if final testing goes well.
[01:13] <Red_HamsterX> I'm testing the PPA build now.
[01:13] <humphreybc> godbyk, have you added http://ubuntu-manual.org/ubuntu-manual-beta.pdf
[01:13] <humphreybc> ?
[01:14] <ubuntujenkins> the ppa should be up, my laptop if frozen, i am hoping it will unfreeze soon
[01:14] <godbyk> I'm literally committing it as we speak.
[01:14] <godbyk> though I haven't symlinked -beta.
[01:14] <godbyk> I'll do that.
[01:14] <humphreybc> ok
[01:14] <ubuntujenkins> godbyk: i see your private message but can't answer, thank you
[01:14] <godbyk> ubuntujenkins: no worries. let me know if you have problems with the ftp site.
[01:14] <ubuntujenkins> i will
[01:15] <godbyk> how many people do we think will download the ISO?
[01:15] <humphreybc> um
[01:15] <godbyk> is this going to kill my site? :-)
[01:15] <humphreybc> probably not
[01:15] <humphreybc> maybe 100 people
[01:15] <humphreybc> well
[01:15] <humphreybc> we'll see
[01:15] <godbyk> or more specifically, should we find a way to mirror it?
[01:15] <Red_HamsterX> Torrent?
[01:16] <Red_HamsterX> Ubuntu ships with tRansmission, so people won't need a special client.
[01:16] <Red_HamsterX> Transmission*
[01:18] <godbyk> humphreybc: shouldn't the progress bar get updated?
[01:19] <humphreybc> blah
[01:19] <humphreybc> yeah
[01:19] <Red_HamsterX> PPA confirmed working in Japanese.
[01:19] <humphreybc> i'll do that now
[01:19] <humphreybc> what % do you reckon we're at now?
[01:22] <ubuntujenkins> crap my laptop has over heated i am trying to boot it on s live cd
[01:23] <ubuntujenkins> excuse my french
[01:23] <ubuntujenkins> I paln to copy it to my hoome desktop
[01:23] <ubuntujenkins> whish is old
[01:23] <godbyk> 80% maybe?
[01:24] <godbyk> I mean if it's really pencils-down, then we're done writing.
[01:24] <godbyk> It's just up to me to fiddle with some formatting and make it all look as awesome as possible.
[01:24] <godbyk> And for the translators to do their thing.
[01:24] <humphreybc> okay
[01:24] <humphreybc> i've made it 80%
[01:24] <Red_HamsterX> PPA confirmed working in Arabic, too.
[01:24] <ubuntujenkins> well thats one thing
[01:25] <godbyk> humphreybc: Also, I need some more details as to what 'writing freeze' means.
[01:25] <godbyk> If we're going to publish *exactly* what we have (sans formatting changes), then it's probably best if we branch this so I can fiddle with the formatting in its own branch.
[01:25] <godbyk> Have another branch for the translators to work against.
[01:25] <godbyk> And yet another for people to continue editing and writing material.
[01:27] <humphreybc> well basically we just don't want to cock up the strings for the translators
[01:27] <godbyk> Okay.  So we definitely need a branch for the translators to work against.
[01:27] <godbyk> But everything else can carry on as normal, then right?
[01:28] <ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX: good
[01:31] <humphreybc> i suppose so
[01:34] <ubuntujenkins> I have started to burn the test cd
[01:35] <Red_HamsterX> Arabic Ubuntu is scary -> أوبونتو العربية أمر مخي -> Ubuntu is the Arab brain | Thanks, Google!
[01:46] <ubuntujenkins> ok i will be back
[02:08] <ubuntu-jenkins> well the cd burn failed, then i burnt the wrong image to a pen drive. it works in a vitualmachine but still testing physical
[02:09] <humphreybc> lol!
[02:09] <ubuntu-jenkins> godbyk: can i have the server details again please
[02:09] <humphreybc> keep it up luke!
[02:19] <humphreybc> now we have to figure out the branches
[02:19] <ubuntu-jenkins> ok i am happy ftp copy started
[02:20] <humphreybc> and it's stable?
[02:20] <godbyk> yeah, we should figure out the branch thing so we can keep working.
[02:21] <ubuntu-jenkins> as stable as it can be, i am the only tester we haven't taken out anything major just redundant programs
[02:21] <ubuntu-jenkins> and randow docs
[02:21] <humphreybc> it looks like we could rename "main" to "lucid-ed1" or something
[02:21] <humphreybc> and then branch off the beta release milestone to another series called "lucid-ed2"
[02:21] <humphreybc> maybe
[02:21] <humphreybc> but i'm not sure
[02:22] <epkugelmass> move the focus of translation development on to series 'lucid-ed1'
[02:22] <ubuntu-jenkins> this is the slowest ever connection 47kb/s
[02:22] <epkugelmass> and keep the rest of us working on the trunk?
[02:22] <humphreybc> epkugelmass: yeah
[02:22] <humphreybc> something like that
[02:22] <epkugelmass> trunk=main
[02:22] <humphreybc> I might grab someone to help us do that
[02:22] <humphreybc> someone who knows about launchpad and bzr :)
[02:24] <godbyk> I also updated http://builds.ubuntu-manual.org/.
[02:24] <ubuntu-jenkins> ok its an eta of about 4hours iam off to bed
[02:24] <humphreybc> lol
[02:24] <humphreybc> righto then
[02:24] <godbyk> Where it appears I've managed to break them all. :-)
[02:24] <humphreybc> godbyk, english AU and GB have a lot of errors :P
[02:24] <ubuntu-jenkins> can some one update the wiki once the cd is up please
[02:24] <humphreybc> ubuntu-jenkins: i'll do that
[02:24] <humphreybc> don't worry
[02:24] <ubuntu-jenkins> thanks i hope this doesn't fail
[02:25] <humphreybc> me too, me too
[02:25] <humphreybc> have we got a stable PPA?
[02:25] <ubuntu-jenkins> yes the ppa is up
[02:25] <humphreybc> so at least people on Lucid can use it if the Live CD doesn't work?
[02:25] <humphreybc> neat
[02:44] <godbyk> ubuntu-jenkins: how's the upload going?
[02:48] <humphreybc> I think he's gone to bed
[02:52] <Red_HamsterX> I kinda hope so.
[02:52] <Red_HamsterX> He needs sleep. :(
[02:52] <humphreybc> i do too... 32 hours without it :)
[02:52] <godbyk> ah, 'kay.
[02:53] <humphreybc> not tired... just sore.. aches and shakes
[02:53] <godbyk> 92 MB of the ISO image uploaded.
[02:53] <humphreybc> lol
[02:53] <epkugelmass> website is starting to take shape
[02:53] <humphreybc> almost 1/7th of the way!
[02:53] <humphreybc> epkugelmass: indeed it is
[02:53] <epkugelmass> i must have missed this
[02:53] <epkugelmass> what's the iso for?
[02:54] <humphreybc> Quickshot Live CD
[02:54] <epkugelmass> ah
[02:54] <epkugelmass> so that the translators can take images for their languages?
[03:30] <humphreybc> yep
[03:30] <humphreybc> well
[03:30] <humphreybc> so we can get translated screenshots
[03:30] <humphreybc> even if you don't speak arabic, you can still take arabic screenshots and contribute them
[03:30] <humphreybc> that's the idea
[04:00] <godbyk> ISO 274 MB so far.
[04:55] <humphreybc> that's good
[05:18] <godbyk> 489 MB now.
[05:19] <godbyk> Is he on dial-up or something? :-)
[05:32] <humphreybc> no idea
[05:32] <humphreybc> i'm going to bed
[05:32] <humphreybc> 36 hours awake now need sleep
[05:32] <godbyk> humphreybc: lame. :)
[05:32] <humphreybc> i'll be up in about 4 hours, just gonna have a nap
[05:32] <godbyk> good luck with that!
[05:32] <humphreybc> lol
[07:08] <ubuntu-jenkins> dobyk i am on broadband but slo q sturff it looks like is done here
[07:08] <ubuntu-jenkins> godbyk: ^^
[07:09] <ubuntu-jenkins> *slow
[07:09] <godbyk> ubuntu-jenkins: I just noticed.  I'm copying it to the site now. Is there a page or link I need to set up?
[07:09] <ubuntu-jenkins> the one on dakers ebsite and the on eon the wiki thanks
[07:10] <ubuntu-jenkins> i dn't like this keyboard
[07:14] <godbyk> internet is dropping here again. :-(
[07:17] <godbyk> ubuntujenkins__: what page on the website is the link on?
[07:18] <ubuntujenkins__> godbyk: http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/quickshot
[07:19] <godbyk> ubuntujenkins__: http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/quickshot/ubuntu-manual-quickshot-i386-0.0.8.iso
[07:20] <godbyk> that's the link if you want to download and check that it survived the transit. :)
[07:24] <ubuntujenkins> thanks godbyk i can't understand how slow the upload was so slow i predicted about 40 minutes
[07:25] <ubuntujenkins> so now we wait for the bug reports
[07:28] <godbyk> http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/quickshot
[07:28] <godbyk> should work now
[07:29] <ubuntujenkins> it works!
[07:31] <godbyk> I'll download a copy and give it a shot.
[07:31] <godbyk> if my internet actually works. :-(
[07:32] <ubuntujenkins> i wonder how  many downloads it will get?
[07:33] <godbyk> Not sure. I need to write a php script to keep tally. :)
[07:44] <shrini> team: where can i get the latest pdf?
[07:44] <shrini> Po and pdf are not matching
[07:48] <godbyk> shrini: http://ubuntu-manual.org/ubuntu-manual-beta.pdf is the latest.
[07:48] <shrini> godbyk: thanks
[07:49] <shrini> ubuntu-manual.org site is not update with this link
[07:49] <godbyk> lemme look.
[07:49] <shrini> :-)
[07:50] <godbyk> shrini: the download worked okay for me.
[07:51] <shrini> it has this link
[07:51] <shrini> http://ubuntu-manual.org/ubuntu-manual-draft.pdf
[07:51] <shrini> not the beta
[07:51] <godbyk> oh.. the link on the page. gotcha.
[07:52] <godbyk> -draft is the same as -beta anyway.
[07:52] <godbyk> but I'll fix the link.
[07:52] <shrini> thanks
[07:52] <shrini> announce about the write freeze
[07:53] <shrini> in the home page
[08:02] <godbyk> I think I've updated all the links now.
[08:07] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson's here. Yay!  Aren't you up a bit late?
[08:08] <IlyaHaykinson> yeah, a bit.
[08:08] <IlyaHaykinson> it's midnight
[08:08] <IlyaHaykinson> i'm just writing a "what's next" email
[08:08] <godbyk> Perfect! I was just going to pester you about that.
[08:08] <godbyk> We need to branch stuff.
[08:09] <godbyk> And I also want to enlist your help in putting together a style guide, too. :)
[08:09] <IlyaHaykinson> going to propose three tracks: 1) getting first edition to ship; 2) second edition for 10.04, theme "raise the quality bar"; 3) first edition for 10.10, theme "improve breadth of coverage"
[08:09] <godbyk> sounds about right.
[08:09] <godbyk> 1 is what translators will be building against.
[08:10] <godbyk> 2 is what we'll continue to edit and perfect.
[08:10] <IlyaHaykinson> re the style guide: i think this will need to wait until late april for me. i am super-busy at work.
[08:10] <godbyk> and 3 is what authors can come back in on and fill out bits that were cut last time, and changes for 10.10.
[08:10] <godbyk> fair enough.
[08:10] <IlyaHaykinson> exactly. i think 2 will need to come more or less before 3.
[08:10] <IlyaHaykinson> they can overlap in that we can start planning for 3 before 2 is done
[08:11] <godbyk> agreed.
[08:11] <IlyaHaykinson> but i want to really switch the focus from "get it out" to the second edition's "make it good"
[08:11] <IlyaHaykinson> so that we're left with a good platform for 10.10
[08:11] <godbyk> I really do, too.
[08:11] <godbyk> That's why I want to get cracking on a style guide (and handy tools) to help with that.
[08:12] <IlyaHaykinson> hm, true. i would _love_ to help, and can do a bit here and there.
[08:12] <IlyaHaykinson> but i think i'll have only a couple of hours per week for the next 3 weeks
[08:13] <IlyaHaykinson> otherwise i'll be the long pole in my work project, which is no good.
[08:13] <godbyk> that's cool.
[08:13] <godbyk> I've got jaminday on board to help, too.
[08:14] <IlyaHaykinson> nice.
[08:14] <IlyaHaykinson> i think between all of us, we can make it happen little by little.
[08:14] <shrini> godbyk: link is changed. thanks
[08:17] <godbyk> I hope so.
[08:18] <godbyk> The GNOME docs style guide is quite nice, actually.
[08:18] <godbyk> The Ubuntu docs style guide seems a lot less well-formed.
[08:18] <godbyk> Though, I may just be missing the bulk of it.
[08:18] <godbyk> I've only seen a few wiki pages of it.
[08:21] <IlyaHaykinson> the GNOME docs guide is what i've mainly been using
[08:21] <IlyaHaykinson> it's not totally complete though, given that Ubuntu has a few, er, ubuntuisms
[08:21] <IlyaHaykinson> like Ubuntu One or the Software Center
[08:21] <IlyaHaykinson> and thus some things that wouldn't be in the guide necessarily
[08:22] <godbyk> yes.
[08:22] <godbyk> one of the first things I'm going to do is start a word list that shows the proper spelling (and capitalization) of words we use.
[08:23] <godbyk> app names, american spellings (vs. british spellings), company/organization names, gui elements, etc.
[08:24] <IlyaHaykinson> for gui elements, i think it's also helpful to include the proper action names, with examples
[08:25] <IlyaHaykinson> for example: button -- verbs: /click/, /click on/; use /click/ for common buttons, /click on/ for all other buttons. examples: /click/ \button{OK}. /click on/ the \button{Search Now} button.
[08:25] <IlyaHaykinson> kinda like the GNOME docs do
[08:26] <IlyaHaykinson> helped me a ton to have both the noun and verb in the same place
[08:27] <godbyk> Definitely.
[08:27] <godbyk> Their page for that was amazing.
[08:27] <godbyk> We definitely need to pay attention to that.
[08:28] <bala> shrini: hi
[08:29] <IlyaHaykinson> nifty; dominic edmunds emailed us.
[08:30] <godbyk> who?
[08:30] <IlyaHaykinson> dominic being the lead designer for canonical web things
[08:30] <IlyaHaykinson> offering help
[08:30] <godbyk> ah, I see the email now.
[08:31] <bala> Team: I need help in translating ubuntu-manual
[08:31] <bala> Team: the pdf and po is not matching
[08:32] <godbyk> bala: I think that the pot hasn't been updated yet.
[08:32] <godbyk> Usually dutchie handles that, but he hasn't been online today.
[08:32] <godbyk> Hopefully he'll turn up at some point. :)
[08:32] <bala> godbylc: Where i get it
[08:34] <bala> godbyk: when i get it?
[08:34] <godbyk> bala: I'm not sure yet.  We will email the Ubuntu Manual mailing list when it's ready though.
[08:34] <shrini> bala: dutchie is a person who maintains the po
[08:34] <IlyaHaykinson> ok, going to sleep now
[08:35] <shrini> he has to do it
[08:35] <godbyk> G'night, IlyaHaykinson.
[08:35] <jaminday> hi all
[08:35] <shrini> let us hope
[08:35] <jaminday> bye IlyaHaykinson
[08:35] <godbyk> Hey, jaminday.
[08:35] <bala> Shrini: But problem only in pdf
[08:35] <jaminday> godbyk: evenin'
[08:35] <godbyk> jaminday: Ready to get crackin' on a style guide? :)
[08:35] <shrini> bala: yes. pdf and po should match
[08:35] <godbyk> bala: What is the problem?
[08:36] <jaminday> godbyk: don't we get even a days rest! ;)
[08:36] <godbyk> jaminday: nope! :)
[08:36] <bala> godbyk:the data in the pdf is mismatch in po file
[08:37] <godbyk> bala: Ah, I understand.  When dutchie gets here, I will have him update the po file and rebuild the pdfs.
[08:38] <bala> godbyk: for example: id no. 236 "This section describes how to use additional security programs to increase "
[08:38] <bala> "the security of your system." is in po file.
[08:38] <bala> godbyk: but in pdf pg no: 138 You may also want to use a ﬁrewall, or use encryption, to further increase the
[08:38] <bala> security of your system. like this
[08:40] <godbyk> bala: Right.  We have been doing a lot of changes this week.  But we're not making any more changes now.
[08:40] <godbyk> When dutchie arrives, he will update the po files for you so that they match the PDF.
[08:40] <bala> godbyk: oh ok ok
[08:43] <jaminday> hahaha... i just saw the audio book announcement
[08:43] <shrini> jaminday: it is great
[08:44] <godbyk> Heh.
[08:44] <jaminday> shrini: yes it is. Had me scratching my head for a couple of minutes though...
[08:44] <shrini> hahaha
[08:44] <godbyk> I'm enjoying the comments on the omgubuntu article about it.
[08:44] <jaminday> godbyk: ooh i'll have a read
[08:46] <jaminday> godbyk: so what's the verdict now that we are past writing freeze?
[08:47] <bala> godbyk: thank you for ur information
[08:48] <godbyk> bala: You're welcome.
[08:48] <godbyk> jaminday: what verdict?
[08:49] <jaminday> well should we be celebrating or hiding... I'm sure there is probably still lots of stuff that didn't get fixed
[08:50] <godbyk> jaminday: ha! yeah, I'm not really sure.
[08:50] <godbyk> mostly I've been avoiding thinking about it. :)
[08:51] <jaminday> hehe
[08:51] <godbyk> we need to branch soon, but I don't know how best to do that. and we need to get the translations updated so the translators can start working against a stable branch.
[08:51] <jaminday> yeah ok
[08:52] <godbyk> I really want to get the style guide started, too, so that's in place before editors and authors start getting to deep into the second edition.
[08:52] <jaminday> yep, maybe we should get stuck into it after the easter break
[08:52] <godbyk> when is easter?
[08:52] <jaminday> you guys don't have easter?
[08:52] <godbyk> we do.
[08:52] <godbyk> I just never pay any attention.
[08:53] <jaminday> hehe
[08:53] <godbyk> and since I don't have classes or a job, holidays have little impact on me. :)
[08:53] <godbyk> looks like this sunday.
[08:53] <godbyk> I think I'm supposed to head to my parents house for easter break. I need to talk to them and confirm that sometime.
[08:54] <godbyk> but yeah, that sounds like a good idea to me.
[08:54] <godbyk> I'm kind of anxious to see what kind of chatter comes of beta release.
[09:06] <jaminday> godbyk: sorry just got hijacked by the neighbours
[09:07] <jaminday> i gotta head out but definitely will catch up when I'm back in a couple of days and work on the style guide
[09:08] <godbyk> no problem.
[09:08] <godbyk> sounds like a plan.
[09:08] <godbyk> see ya later!
[09:08] <jaminday> great, bye!
[09:12] <c7p> hello guys, great job ;)
[09:13] <c7p> I 've go a question. Have you uploaded the translation template on launchpad ?
[09:14] <artnay> c7p: not yet
[09:15] <c7p> artnay: will it be on today?
[09:15] <artnay> c7p: I don't know, dutchie is responsible for that. you're the second one today to ask the same question ;)
[09:15] <artnay> 10:32     godbyk : Usually dutchie handles that, but he hasn't been online today.
[09:16] <artnay> so let's just wait
[09:16] <c7p> :p ok thank you
[09:21] <godbyk> Sorry about all the confusion. I'd do it myself, but I'm not sure how and fear totally mucking it up.
[09:22] <c7p> no problem, just inform us via e-mail
[09:22] <artnay> godbyk: what about the website-translations, will there be a lot changes before the 29th?
[09:23] <godbyk> artnay: I don't think there will be a ton of changes, but I don't know that they've been edited yet.
[09:23] <godbyk> c7p: Will do. We'll send a post to the mailing list when it's read.
[09:23] <godbyk> ready.
[09:23] <c7p> pk:)
[09:23] <c7p> ok*
[09:25] <godbyk> I think I'll email dutchie just in case he doesn't pop on IRC.
[10:05] <nisshh> yay! beta released!
[10:13] <popey> where do i file bugs against the beta?
[10:24] <nisshh> popey: same place as before i presume
[10:24] <popey> yeah, where's that?
[10:24] <popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual has no mention of "bug"
[10:25] <nisshh> http://ubuntu-manual.org/?bugs
[10:25] <nisshh> try that
[10:25] <popey> thank you!
[10:25] <nisshh> no probs
[10:33] <humphreybc> hey peeps
[10:34] <nisshh> yo
[10:34]  * popey files another bug
[10:34] <nisshh> saw your omgubuntu post!
[10:34] <humphreybc> lol
[10:34] <nisshh> nice work
[10:34] <humphreybc> there were two so far
[10:34] <humphreybc> i just had a nap
[10:34] <nisshh> yea, both lol
[10:34] <humphreybc> for 5 hours
[10:34] <nisshh> hehe, "rested your eyes"
[10:35] <humphreybc> man i needed it, i was pretty much falling over beforehand :P
[10:35] <nisshh> hehe, iv had 5 hours sleep in 48 hours lol
[10:36] <nisshh> funny though, i feel really good, not tired at all
[10:36] <humphreybc> lol
[10:36] <nisshh> humphreybc: is there a list somewhere of things to be included in the second edition?
[10:36] <humphreybc> nope
[10:37] <nisshh> oh well, dunno what im ganno do now lol
[10:37] <nisshh> gonna*
[10:37] <humphreybc> this sucks. something has has happened to the way ubuntu handles my touchpad input... it's crazy sensitive now even on lowest acceleration and sensitivity and also no more edge scrolling :(
[10:37] <humphreybc> you could tell me what's happening with quickshot
[10:37] <nisshh> could be because of the new version of launchpad
[10:38] <humphreybc> (which is the reason I came on here to see if everything has finished so I can post it)
[10:38] <nisshh> what do you need to know?
[10:39] <humphreybc> whether it has been uploaded to godbyks server
[10:39] <humphreybc> what the permanent link is for it
[10:39] <nisshh> how do i find that out?
[10:39] <humphreybc> whether it actually wokrs!
[10:39] <humphreybc> works*
[10:39] <nisshh> hehe
[10:39] <humphreybc> godbyk-android:  ping ping pingy ping
[10:39] <godbyk> hey, I'm here
[10:40] <godbyk> one sec
[10:40] <humphreybc> k
[10:41]  * humphreybc sees the ISO URL on the wiki
[10:41] <nisshh> oh yea, i found a netbook running ubuntu
[10:42] <nisshh> is hell cheap too
[10:43] <godbyk> okay, back now.
[10:44] <nisshh> getting my brand new SATA HDD today!
[10:45] <godbyk> humphreybc: yeah, the iso is up, and I linked it from the wiki and the test site.
[10:46] <humphreybc> godbyk, neat, i'm downloading it now. i'm going to post the omg article in a sec once I verify the PPA works
[10:46] <humphreybc> it's downloading the ISO at 6.6KB/s.... =S
[10:46] <godbyk> k
[10:46] <godbyk> I haven't tested the iso, but I did download it successfully.
[10:46] <godbyk> I was downloading it at 1 MB/s.
[10:47] <godbyk> humphreybc: you should get off that island and get faster internet service. :)
[10:47] <humphreybc> hahaha
[10:50] <nisshh> godbyk: lol
[10:55] <komsas> hey, when the new strings will come to launchpad translate (rosetta)?
[10:55] <godbyk> komsas: As soon as dutchie does it. :)
[10:55] <godbyk> I've emailed him about it in case he doesn't pop into IRC.
[10:56] <humphreybc> ugggggh this new trackpad thing is horrible
[10:56] <komsas> thanks, I see there will be a lot of stuff.
[10:56] <humphreybc> i'm hoping it's just a matter of restarting X
[10:57] <humphreybc> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/04/quickshot-released-ppa-and-livecd.html
[10:58] <humphreybc> brb
[11:01] <humphreybc1> hooray
[11:01] <humphreybc1> restarted X did fix my mouse
[11:03] <humphreybc1> is that post okay?
[11:06] <nisshh> humphreybc: nice post!
[11:17] <humphreybc1> we need more female mugshots
[11:17] <humphreybc1> lol
[11:19] <issyl0> Hi all!
[11:19]  * issyl0 is doing some website translation now.
[11:21] <komsas> Guys, who deleted all main branch?
[11:22] <godbyk> komsas: What do you mean?
[11:22]  * komsas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_Fools'_Day
[11:22] <godbyk> aha.
[11:22] <godbyk> :)
[11:22] <komsas> heheh
[11:22] <godbyk> point to komsas! :)
[11:24] <issyl0> :P
[11:24] <humphreybc1> lol
[11:29] <komsas> ok, now a real thing, yesterday I found this cute dalmantian dog in my yard http://img535.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0392t.jpg
[11:29] <godbyk> now I'm scared to click the link!
[11:29] <komsas> it is real !
[11:30] <komsas> Limax maximus
[11:31] <humphreybc1> so
[11:31] <humphreybc1> i guess... now we wait
[11:31] <humphreybc1> thorwil: ping
[11:32] <godbyk> guess so
[11:33] <humphreybc1> 10 minutes left to download the live CD
[11:33] <humphreybc1> i'm going to run it in a vbox and start reporting bugs bugs bugs
[11:35] <issyl0> humphreybc1: of lucid?
[11:35] <humphreybc1> oh, i might do some screenshotting too
[11:35] <humphreybc1> :P
[11:35] <humphreybc1> i'm kinda worried now, you know why?
[11:35] <humphreybc1> kinda
[11:35] <humphreybc1> i'm worried because now the translations and screenshots are out of my control
[11:36] <humphreybc1> apart from trying to convince as many people to help as possible, there's not much else I can do
[11:36] <humphreybc1> actually, i believe the Lucid translation freeze is coming up in the next few days. Which is great for us because then all the translators will have nothing to do so they can come translate for us!
[11:36] <humphreybc1> I need to get some posts on the planet
[11:37] <humphreybc1> as well as work with LoCo teams, i'll talk with Laura
[11:37] <humphreybc1> we need to get people translating like no one has ever translated before!
[11:37] <issyl0> Hehe
[11:38] <issyl0> I've started, I've translated at least 100 strings already this morning into en_GB.  I might dive into the French as well soon.
[11:39] <humphreybc1> and dutchie needs to update the damn translations asap
[11:40] <issyl0> Heh
[11:43] <humphreybc1> okay
[11:43] <humphreybc1> :)
[11:43] <humphreybc1> that's great to hear!
[11:43] <komsas> humphreybc1: yep, we are waiting new strings! :)
[11:43] <humphreybc1> goddammit dutchie!
[11:44] <nisshh> lol
[11:44] <humphreybc1> :)
[11:44] <komsas> :D
[11:44] <humphreybc1> komsas: you can translate the website in the meantime!
[11:44] <komsas> someone doing this now ;)
[11:44] <humphreybc1> https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/main/+pots/ubu-man-website-translations
[11:45]  * komsas writting new post about new beta realise ;)
[11:46] <godbyk> I haven't seen dutchie all day. :(
[11:46] <nisshh> i was talking to him last night i think
[11:46] <nisshh> extremely briefly
[11:47] <humphreybc1> okay
[11:48] <humphreybc1> testing quickshot live CD in a virtual box
[11:49] <humphreybc1> let's see how it goes
[11:52] <thorwil> humphreybc1: pong
[11:52] <humphreybc1> wow
[11:52] <humphreybc1> it seems to work
[11:53] <humphreybc1> hey thorwil
[11:54] <TommyBrunn> How often is the website translations updated? I did some work on the Swedish translation (currently at around 40%) yesterday or the day before that, but it's still not available in the list of languages.
[11:54] <humphreybc1> I was wondering if you could be so kind as to write a blog post summarizing the beta release, writing freeze and quickshot release, with an emphasis on how people can help us.. then post it to the planet?
[11:54] <humphreybc1> We need to get some material on planet ubuntu about all this and we need to get people helping asap
[11:54] <humphreybc1> seeing as you're a member of the team :)
[11:55] <godbyk> TommyBrunn: I haven't looked at the website code for quite a while, but I think the menu list may be static.  Don't quote me on that, though.
[11:55] <humphreybc1> I think we need to freeze the website strings asap
[11:56] <humphreybc1> so stuff that needs to be done this weekend (i'm going away)
[11:56] <godbyk> humphreybc1: we should probably edit the text then.  (I haven't looked at it at all yet.)
[11:57] <thorwil> humphreybc1: do you have an outline for me? :)
[11:57] <humphreybc1> branches need sorting out
[11:57] <humphreybc1> website needs to be fine tuned
[11:57] <humphreybc1> string freeze for website
[11:57] <humphreybc1> on Monday test.ubuntu-manual.org should switch over to ubuntu-manual.org with great care being taken to ensure stuff like the progress bar and download links are kept intact!
[11:57] <humphreybc1> quickshot and translations need to be pimped everywhere, on blogs, planets, twitter, facebook, all over the place
[11:57] <humphreybc1> yeah, i know
[11:57] <humphreybc1> thorwil: not yet but I can write one up tomorrow if I have time. If not, you may need to go through the two posts on OMG! and take the relevant information out
[11:58] <thorwil> humphreybc1: ok
[11:58] <humphreybc1> I'm going to try my best to write up a summary because a few other people want it (like the UK podcast)
[11:58] <humphreybc1> if I do, i'll email you. If you don't hear from me in 12 hours, assume I haven't got around to it and you'll have to do one yourself :)
[12:01] <TommyBrunn> There are some major inconsistencies in referring to LaTeX, TeX, TeX Live, etc. Sometimes it's written as "tex", sometimes as "TeX", etc. Which one is correct?
[12:03] <nisshh> TommyBrun: it should be LaTeX or TeX
[12:04] <nisshh> or TeX Live
[12:04] <humphreybc1> okay, i'm off to sleep
[12:04] <humphreybc1> chow
[12:04] <godbyk> TommyBrunn: It should be TeX and LaTeX if it's in plain text.  If it's in LaTeX (or TeX), write \LaTeX or \TeX.
[12:05] <TommyBrunn> Alright, godbyk, thank you.
[12:12] <dutchie> here now
[12:12] <dutchie> doing it
[12:15] <godbyk> dutchie: \o/
[12:15] <godbyk> When it's finished, will you email the mailing list and give the translators the green light?
[12:17] <dutchie> bloody 20KB/s pulling of bzr
[12:18] <godbyk> it's been slow for me lately, too.
[12:21] <godbyk> I'm off to bed, too.  See ya!
[12:23] <ubuntujenkins> woops i feel asleep again.
[12:23] <godbyk> ubuntujenkins: I'm off to bed, too.  Btw, the ISO has been downloaded 37 times so far.
[12:24] <ubuntujenkins> nice 37 times and only 2 bugs both from ben
[12:24] <ubuntujenkins> o/ godbyk
[12:24] <godbyk> :)
[12:58] <dutchie> ahh, resolving translation conflicts to uupc. what a life
[12:59] <popey> ?
[13:02] <dutchie> ? what?
[13:13] <ubuntujenkins> this channel is quite today not so much to do...........
[13:15] <dutchie> any of the swedish translators here?
[13:17] <dutchie> anybody here speak swedish?
[13:18] <ubuntujenkins> TommyBrunn speaks swedish if he is around
[13:19] <popey> dutchie: i didnt understand that sentence
[13:20] <dutchie> popey: I am listening to uupc while resolving the conflicts from merging translations
[13:20] <popey> ahhhh
[13:20] <popey> "to uupc" didnt parse for me :)
[13:21] <dutchie> get a new parser ;)
[13:23] <TommyBrunn> dutchie, what do you need help with?
[13:24] <dutchie> merge conflicts on the swedish translation
[13:24] <dutchie> if I paste a diff, can you tell me what to keep?
[13:24] <TommyBrunn> I can try
[13:25] <dutchie> http://paste.ubuntu.com/407535/
[13:26] <TommyBrunn> What am I looking for here?
[13:26] <dutchie> the items in msgstr are the translations of the text in msgid
[13:28] <dutchie> I need to know which is a better translation is better on lines 41/50
[13:28] <TommyBrunn> Well, the translation for "Alternative download options" is kind of weird. I'd say "Nedladdningsalternativ" rather than "Alternativ för hämtning"
[13:28] <TommyBrunn> Row 42 is better than 43
[13:28] <TommyBrunn> 51 is better than 52
[13:29] <dutchie> OK, thank
[13:29] <dutchie> s
[13:29] <TommyBrunn> No problem.
[13:31] <TommyBrunn> Hm, should Bazaar be referred to as bzr or Bazaar in plain text?
[13:32] <TommyBrunn> The source text says bzr, but I don't think it should.
[13:34] <dutchie> gah
[13:34] <dutchie> *** Bazaar has encountered an internal error.  This probably indicates a
[13:34] <dutchie>     bug in Bazaar.  You can help us fix it by filing a bug report at
[13:34] <dutchie>         https://bugs.launchpad.net/bzr/+filebug
[13:34] <dutchie>     attaching the crash file
[13:34] <dutchie>         /home/josh/.cache/crash/bzr-20100401123304-11346.crash
[13:34] <dutchie>     and including a description of the problem.
[13:34] <dutchie>     The crash file is plain text and you can inspect or edit it to remove
[13:34] <dutchie>     private information.
[13:50] <TommyBrunn> Oh great, there's no direct Swedish translation of artwork. Time to get creative...
[14:01] <TommyBrunn> "who saw the need for targeted up-to-date and consistent documentation for the Ubuntu operating system"
[14:01] <TommyBrunn> What does "targeted" mean in this context? Targeted at a specific group?
[14:01] <dutchie> yeah
[14:02] <TommyBrunn> Alright. Thanks.
[14:03] <dutchie> go faster, po4a
[14:04] <TommyBrunn> Man, I've translated over 30% of the website today. If someone goes and changes every string, I'm going to go berserk.
[14:45] <TommyBrunn> And I'm done!
[14:45] <TommyBrunn> Except for 3 strings that I can't translate.
[14:57] <artnay> TommyBrunn: nice work, greetings from west
[14:57] <artnay> uh... EAST, make it east! :D
[14:58] <TommyBrunn> Thank you. Though I'm sure a lot of stuff will have to be changed once we can see the translation in context (right now Swedish is not available in the list of languages on the site).
[15:22] <TommyBrunn> What's the URL to the manual builds?
[15:28] <dutchie> http://builds.ubuntu-manual.org/
[15:57] <ubuntujenkins> some people are doing screenshots there have been some uploads
[16:36] <dutchie> go faster, stupid po4a
[16:37] <ubuntujenkins> your still doing it dutchie
[16:38] <dutchie> yes :(
[16:38] <dutchie> it's only on en_GB, and going alphabetically
[16:39] <ubuntujenkins> on the topic of translations, the quickshot project randomly got a po folder how are they generated?
[16:39] <dutchie> through the magic of quickly
[16:39] <ubuntujenkins> it only got it yesterday which was so random
[16:42] <dutchie> maybe a quickly update got through or something
[16:44] <ubuntujenkins> probably
[17:05] <danyR> hey guys, has the beta translation template already been uploaded to translation page?
[17:06] <dutchie> it's being produced
[17:06] <dutchie> it may take a while
[17:07] <dutchie> should be up by tomorrow morning
[17:07] <danyR> dutchie: so, i'm translating now, won't lost anything, will I?
[17:07] <dutchie> there is a distinct possibility you're translating text that is no longer in the beta
[17:08] <dutchie> about 674 out of 1500 or so strings were unchanged
[17:08] <dutchie> you're best off waiting to be honest
[18:07] <danyR> about the mugshots, it's face only right? and what size?
[18:09] <TommyBrunn> danyR: At least 800x600, I believe he said.
[18:09] <TommyBrunn> Or 600x800, depending on orientation.
[18:10] <danyR> hmmm nice,I have one around with 960x1280 :O I'm going to cut the landscape and resize it :)
[18:11] <danyR> cellphone-taken, very bad quality, but ok
[18:21] <titeuf_87> Hey Red_HamsterX, do you know what still needs to be done/tested with Quickshot?
[18:35] <wolfsome> Buenas tardes a todos
[18:36] <wolfsome> acabo de solicitar unirme al grupo de traducción en Launchpad
[18:37] <danyR> An 743x963 mugshot will work?
[19:05] <titeuf_87> Hey ubuntujenkins
[19:05] <ubuntujenkins> hey titeuf_87
[19:06] <ubuntujenkins> well we have the release out and only two bugs, last time i spoke with godbyk he said we had 37 downloads of the cd
[19:07] <titeuf_87> Oooh neat, can we still fix those bugs on time?
[19:07] <titeuf_87> Saw tons of mails about bug reports, but I think they got all closed?
[19:08] <Red_HamsterX> Everything except the two most recent bugs were addressed.
[19:08] <Red_HamsterX> As well as a number of little things we found just before the launch.
[19:09] <Red_HamsterX> (Like the fact that RTL environments are *entirely* RTL)
[19:09] <titeuf_87> What do you mean with that?
[19:10] <ubuntujenkins> thanks for all your work Red_HamsterX and titeuf_87, the two most recent are very minor one is wish list
[19:10] <Red_HamsterX> They're complete mirror images of things like English and French.
[19:10] <Red_HamsterX> The log-out button is on the left.
[19:10] <ubuntujenkins> so all the grid references for sectional screenshots had to be fliped
[19:10] <ubuntujenkins> if the langauge was rtl
[19:10] <Red_HamsterX> Welcome, ubuntujenkins. Feel free to assign things to me if you want.
[19:11] <titeuf_87> Ah, wouldn't it be easier to just check if a language is rtl and then programmaticaly flip the coordinates?
[19:11] <Red_HamsterX> I'll create a new EtherPad after I add some effects to a PyWeek entry.
[19:11] <ubuntujenkins> I will do the two bugs were cd related so i assigned my self
[19:11] <Red_HamsterX> That's what we ended up doing.
[19:11] <Red_HamsterX> But figuring out how to detect it an hour and a half before the freeze was fun.
[19:12] <titeuf_87> Worst case scenario and as a quick fix could have just added a checkbox, but nice to see that it got fixed anyways :)
[19:12] <Red_HamsterX> http://screenshots.ubuntu-manual.org/
[19:12] <Red_HamsterX> People are using it!
[19:13] <Red_HamsterX> (The ja and ar ones were me)
[19:13] <ubuntujenkins> its gone up since i last looked
[19:13] <ubuntujenkins> 21 french ones , 1 more it one
[19:13] <Red_HamsterX> I'll pick up some of the less-complete languages next week.
[19:15] <ubuntujenkins> see how the translators get on
[19:53] <godbyk> I'm conscious again.
[19:54] <ubuntujenkins> hello godbyk
[19:55] <ubuntujenkins> how many downloads now ?
[19:56] <godbyk> ubuntujenkins: I was just looking, and it's tricky to say.
[19:56] <godbyk> 'cause some have been start-stop-resume downloads and things.
[19:56] <godbyk> I'm going to have to find a better way to count them.
[19:56] <ubuntujenkins> are ok
[19:59] <ubuntujenkins> I have just started looking at why the builds for other langauges are failing and it looks to be the same thing so far. But i can't find where in the po file the error is
[20:01] <godbyk> ah, yeah, I need to look at that today, too.
[20:01] <godbyk> It looks like it's the \ignorespaces command.
[20:01] <godbyk> Because po4a is being stupid and doing something it shouldn't be doing.
[20:01] <godbyk> I'll have to edit the main.tex file to fix it.
[20:02] <godbyk> Did we ever get the branches set up?
[20:03] <ubuntujenkins> no nothing has been done what needs doing?
[20:05] <godbyk> Basically, we should set up branches to implement Ilya's plan.
[20:06] <godbyk> one for the 10.04 1e, one for 10.04 2e, and one for 10.10 (though this last one can probably wait a bit).
[20:06] <godbyk> The 1e branch will be for translators, the 2e branch will be for authors/editors to continue improving, and the 10.10 branch will be for starting on the 10.10 edition.
[20:08] <ubuntujenkins> do we keep the current main for 10.04 1e?
[20:08] <ubuntujenkins> i thought it would be better to branch 10.04 1e off
[20:08] <ubuntujenkins> keeping main for 10.04 e2
[20:09] <godbyk> I think main should be e2 and that 1e should be branched off (so it's harder for people to access, frankly).
[20:10] <ubuntujenkins> thats good that we agree how does it effect translations?
[20:11] <godbyk> no clue whatsoever.
[20:12] <ubuntujenkins> we don't want to mess it up
[20:12] <ubuntujenkins> we need to work out how to point the translations at 10.04 e1 branch and not main
[20:13] <godbyk> right.
[20:13] <godbyk> I figured I'd pester dutchie or someone smarter than me to work that out.
[20:15] <ubuntujenkins> you are smart translations are just not your area
[20:17] <godbyk> Heh. While I'm normally excited to learn new things, I think I'll avoid it in this case just because I don't need more things on my plate right now. :)
[20:19] <ubuntujenkins> DUTCHIE!!!
[20:21] <godbyk> I'm rebuilding the translated PDFs now.
[20:21] <godbyk> one thing I can do is pull the updated .po files, at lesat.
[20:21] <godbyk> I'll leave the .pot work to dutchie though.
[20:21] <godbyk> let him face the translators' wrath. :-)
[20:26] <ubuntujenkins> how come the english uk and english australian ones have so many errors?
[20:31] <godbyk> not sure. I haven't looked at those yet.
[20:34] <godbyk> it looks like they hate the screenshots.
[20:36] <ubuntujenkins> strange
[20:42] <ubuntujenkins> etherpad is shutting down http://etherpad.com/ep/blog/posts/transition-update
[20:43] <ubuntujenkins> we can use http://ietherpad.com/ we need to move the todo list across
[20:44] <godbyk> is the todo list on etherpad or on a separate etherpad host?
[20:44] <ubuntujenkins> i was just looking i think it might be on a seperate host
[20:45] <ubuntujenkins> ours is on pad.ubuntu-uk.org
[20:46] <ubuntujenkins> is there something i can do for an hour or so?
[20:47] <popey> pad.ubuntu-uk.org isnt going away :)
[20:48] <ubuntujenkins> I didn't realise that there were differnt versions, in needed something to do
[20:51] <godbyk> ubuntujenkins: have people been taking screenshots with quickshot?
[20:51] <godbyk> also, what's the process to pull those screenshots into the manual's branch?
[20:51] <ubuntujenkins> yes
[20:51] <ubuntujenkins> we need you to recompile php so we can download them to check them
[20:52] <ubuntujenkins> once they are checked they are added to the langauge bzr branch https://code.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-screenshots I have the script to merge them into the main screenshots branch. then they can be merged with ubuntu-manual
[20:52] <godbyk> ubuntujenkins: removing that \ignorespaces bit fixed most the builds: http://builds.ubuntu-manual.org/
[20:53] <godbyk> I'm going to recompile them (again) with the translations I just pulled in.
[20:53] <godbyk> okay.
[20:53] <godbyk> what options did you guys need me to compile php with?
[20:53] <ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX knows
[20:54] <godbyk> Red_HamsterX, Red_HamsterX, Red_HamsterX!
[20:54] <godbyk> See if that summons him. :)
[20:55] <ubuntujenkins> from yesterdays log [23:50] <Red_HamsterX> Zip is the only non-standard option I require.
[20:55]  * ubuntujenkins needs something to do
[20:56] <godbyk> okay.
[20:56] <godbyk> hmm.. something for ubuntujenkins to do..
[20:56] <godbyk> well, you could find more bugs in the beta pdf.
[20:57] <ubuntujenkins> I will build the latest version where am i filing them? google docs thing?
[20:58] <Red_HamsterX> Hi.
[20:59] <Red_HamsterX> Jist zip, godbyk. I think everything else is standard enough that you couldn't build PHP without it.
[20:59] <Red_HamsterX> I'll grab the flag.
[20:59] <godbyk> Red_HamsterX: thanks!
[21:00] <Red_HamsterX> --enable-zip
[21:00] <godbyk> well that's easy enough.
[21:00] <godbyk> I'll get compiling, then.
[21:04] <ubuntujenkins> sweet i have had the poppler update the pictures look good now
[21:06] <godbyk> awesome. I'm downloading the updates now.
[21:07] <godbyk> I was having to wait for the x64 version to build and get pushed out.
[21:07] <ubuntujenkins> I think it might be out i am on x64
[21:10] <ubuntujenkins> o i need to redo the login screenshot
[21:12] <godbyk> Updated builds with the latest translations: http://builds.ubuntu-manual.org/
[21:12] <godbyk> Aha!
[21:12] <godbyk> Figured out why the english translations are failing.
[21:12] <godbyk> If you look, the translations with _ in their language codes are all failing big-time.
[21:12] <godbyk> that's 'cause _ is a special char for latex.
[21:13] <godbyk> I'll fix that up in a moment.
[21:13] <ubuntujenkins> does it need escaping in the make command then?
[21:13] <godbyk> I think I have to do some funky low-level tex coding to work around it, but it should just be a one-line change.
[21:14] <godbyk> let me try to fix that real quick before I work on php.
[21:14] <godbyk> (the php compilation is scary.. so many options and libs!)
[21:18] <godbyk> wow!
[21:18] <godbyk> the difference in the appearance of the screenshots is stunning!
[21:42] <donri> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-themes/+bug/532633/comments/564
[21:42] <manualbot> Launchpad bug 532633 in metacity "[Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment" [Undecided,Confirmed]
[21:43] <donri> You'll have to redo all screenshots.
[21:45] <ubuntujenkins> thanks for the heads up donri, we have 44 screenshots done so far across the board, need to look at those and see what positon the buttons are in
[21:46] <donri> The position will stay to the left, but they changed the order again.
[21:46] <TommyBrunn> I believe there is mention of the window controls and their order in the manual itself, so that'll have to be edited as well.
[21:46] <ubuntujenkins> sorry i ment to say order of buttons
[21:47] <donri> It's stupid, the whole point was to make it more sane for LTR reading. Now they put the most destructive action first.
[21:48] <ubuntujenkins> its not happend yet in lucid. should we stop people screen shoting?
[21:49] <ubuntujenkins> thats a point TommyBrunn I will file a bug
[21:50] <TommyBrunn> ubuntujenkins: I don't think stopping people from taking screenshots, only to have them start again in a day or so (it can't take them that long to roll out an update to the theme, can it?) would be very practical.
[21:51] <ubuntujenkins> hopefully it will be in tonight/tomorrow will we keep the old ones?
[21:52] <TommyBrunn> It's only a maximum of 44 screenshots. It would seem they could be replaced fairly easily. But I'm not really involved with that stuff, so it's your call.
[21:53] <TommyBrunn> I'm going to take a pee-pee break before the Ubuntu Forum Council meeting starts.
[21:56] <TommyBrunn> Oh crap, I must have read the time wrong. It doesn't start for nother hour
[21:58] <ubuntujenkins> I will wait and see how quickly the change takes to come through
[22:03] <Red_HamsterX> The new bug report makes me happy.
[22:03] <Red_HamsterX> Despite the fact that it's a bug report.
[22:04] <ubuntujenkins> I have just read some of the comments on bug 532633 people get very anoyed about some buttons
[22:04] <manualbot> Launchpad bug 532633 in metacity "[Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/532633
[22:07] <Red_HamsterX> Given the commant Mark posted, could we reconfigure Quickshot to just issue its opposite as part of its startup/installation routine?
[22:07] <Red_HamsterX> command*
[22:08] <ubuntujenkins> I don't understand what you mean
[22:08] <Red_HamsterX> To revert to old layout, run in a terminal:
[22:08] <Red_HamsterX> $ gconftool-2 --set /apps/metacity/general/button_layout --type string "menu:minimize,maximize,close"
[22:09] <ubuntujenkins> but we need the new layout
[22:09] <Red_HamsterX> It seems revering the order would lead to the desired order.
[22:09] <Red_HamsterX> reversing*
[22:10] <ubuntujenkins> we could add a line to the start of each screenshot entry command part to put the buttons in the new order that way we have the new order before the theme update
[22:11] <ubuntujenkins> and thats the best way to get it to the users who downloaded the cd today
[22:12] <ubuntujenkins> downloading a whole cd for a button change.
[22:14] <ubuntujenkins> adding gconftool-2 --set /apps/metacity/general/button_layout --type string "close,minimize,maximize:" to each section would sovle it
[22:14] <ubuntujenkins> thats the new layout
[22:16] <donri> If you just change the order, the theme will look crap, I think.
[22:17] <ubuntujenkins> the buttons is the only thing they are changing the theme is all ready in lucid
[22:17] <donri> The indentation behind the buttons wont line up correctly, and look cut off.
[22:18] <ubuntujenkins> I think they have fixed that it looks fine here
[22:18] <donri> In any order?
[22:19] <ubuntujenkins> yep looks fine to me
[22:19] <godbyk> Yeah, I'll have to update the manual's text for that, too.
[22:20] <ubuntujenkins> http://imagebin.org/91270 < donri
[22:20] <donri> Oh, cool.
[22:21] <ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX: shall i just add gconftool-2 --set /apps/metacity/general/button_layout --type string "close,minimize,maximize:" to each section would sovle it to the server file?
[22:22] <ubuntujenkins> godbyk: has php compiled yet?
[22:22] <godbyk> ubuntujenkins: no, my mother called and distracted me. I'm just now back at the computer.
[22:23] <ubuntujenkins> kk np
[22:23] <Red_HamsterX> No, it's something that would need to be run or set when setting up Quickshot.
[22:23] <Red_HamsterX> Setting it in .profile would work, too.
[22:24] <Red_HamsterX> I don't think we can chain commands with subprocess.Popen... but I'll try.
[22:25] <Red_HamsterX> No, it's treating && as a token.
[22:25] <Red_HamsterX> We'd need to get that client-side, somehow.
[22:26] <Red_HamsterX> We could add a dummy screencap that they're to "take"...
[22:26] <Red_HamsterX> Just capture a 1x1 section of the screen and run that command...
[22:27] <Red_HamsterX> We should be able to do that without breaking anything.
[22:27] <ubuntujenkins> I don't understand why we can't add it at the start of each of the =command= sections rather than doing a dummy screenshot?
[22:28] <Red_HamsterX> It'll just add a '00-button-fix' PNG to the archive, which LaTeX will ignore because it's never referenced.
[22:28] <Red_HamsterX> Because we also need to run the real command.
[22:28] <Red_HamsterX> The design limits us to a single command.
[22:29] <ubuntujenkins> o i see now but we have to get everyone to do the button fix screencap each time
[22:29] <ubuntujenkins> they run the cd
[22:29] <Red_HamsterX> No, just once.
[22:29] <Red_HamsterX> It's a gconf change
[22:30] <Red_HamsterX> So it should affect that user's profile forever once set.
[22:30] <ubuntujenkins> the user isn't saved on the live cd
[22:30] <Red_HamsterX> Unless a dist-upgrade changes it back.
[22:30] <Red_HamsterX> Oh, yeah...
[22:30] <Red_HamsterX> We could put the command on the download page and ask them to >> it into .profile, then re-login as the Quickshot user...
[22:31] <Red_HamsterX> ...but that's getting complicated.
[22:31] <Red_HamsterX> And some people would miss it.
[22:32] <ubuntujenkins> can we not automatically paste the new buttons over the old ones?
[22:32] <ubuntujenkins> i don't know if it is possible
[22:32] <Red_HamsterX> Yeah, we could do that, too.
[22:32] <Red_HamsterX> IT's quite possible.
[22:32] <Red_HamsterX> And quite possibly the cleanest solution.
[22:32] <Red_HamsterX> We'd just need to knwo which buttons appear on each window.
[22:32] <Red_HamsterX> Which we can determine easily.
[22:32] <ubuntujenkins> thats not to bad then
[22:32] <Red_HamsterX> Yeah, let's work with that.
[22:33] <ubuntujenkins> anyone running lucid will get the update soon anyway
[22:33] <Red_HamsterX> I'll craft a script that reads a list of filenames and image-bits to overlay.
[22:33] <ubuntujenkins> thanks i will be interested to know how its done
[22:33] <Red_HamsterX> Then just use PIL to draw the new piece in the top-left.
[22:33] <Red_HamsterX> And save over the old file.
[22:33] <Red_HamsterX> (PIL: Python Image Library)
[22:34] <Red_HamsterX> Or I could do it in PHP, at export-time...
[22:34] <ubuntujenkins> so we will do that before we add them to bzr right?
[22:34] <ubuntujenkins> php sound better
[22:34] <Red_HamsterX> If the graphics libraries are on the server.
[22:34] <ubuntujenkins> godbyk!!
[22:34] <Red_HamsterX> Python's probably better. We have more control that way.
[22:35] <Red_HamsterX> We don't run the risk of corrupting the originals.
[22:35] <ubuntujenkins> that is true
[22:35] <Red_HamsterX> I'll get a prototype ready.
[22:36] <godbyk> What's up?
[22:36] <ubuntujenkins> don't worry we did have a php question about your server
[22:36] <Red_HamsterX> Nothing. We were just debating how to solve the flipped button order problem.
[22:36] <ubuntujenkins> good old copy and paste ftw
[22:36] <Red_HamsterX> We like highlighting you. :)
[22:37] <godbyk> okey doke. :-)
[22:37] <Red_HamsterX> Oh, actually, there'll be one exception to this script. We'll need to give it some sort of flag in RTL mode.
[22:37] <Red_HamsterX> And have RTL samples available.
[22:37] <ubuntujenkins> silly rtl :P
[22:37] <Red_HamsterX> (Yes, RTL reverses that, too)
[22:38] <ubuntujenkins> neil i am assigning you to the bug and marking as in progess if thats ok?
[22:38] <Red_HamsterX> I was just about to do that.
[22:38] <Red_HamsterX> Go ahead.
[22:38] <Red_HamsterX> I'll hit the APIs instead.
[22:39] <ubuntujenkins> thnaks
[22:39] <ubuntujenkins> i am off all night o/
[22:39] <Red_HamsterX> It just occurred to me that I left the en branch polluted yesterday.
[22:39] <Red_HamsterX> I've emptied it, but we may have confused the en cappers.
[22:39] <Red_HamsterX> (I'm sure they'll figure it out, though)
[22:40] <ubuntujenkins> meh life goes on
[22:40] <ubuntujenkins> night
[22:48] <dutchie> po4a is still updating, godbyk etc
[22:48] <godbyk> dutchie: still?! dang!
[22:49] <godbyk> I pulled down some fresh .po files to try to keep the questions at bay.
[22:49] <godbyk> (had a couple in here yesterday because the pdfs didn't match the po files or something.)
[22:49] <dutchie> that is entirely possible
[22:49] <dutchie> that won't go away until po4a's finished though
[22:49] <dutchie> it's in ro.po
[22:50] <dutchie> I started it about 10 hours ago
[22:54] <godbyk> wow.
[22:54] <godbyk> Is there a better way to handle translations than po4a, do you think?
[22:54] <dutchie> not that I've found
[22:55] <dutchie> only thing I could think of is a perl script, and po4a's done that already
[22:55] <godbyk> right.
[22:55] <godbyk> is the fuzziness bug a problem with po4a or with rosetta?
[22:55] <dutchie> rosetta drops fuzzy translations
[22:56] <godbyk> that's lame.
[22:56] <godbyk> are there better translation tools (than rosetta)?
[22:56] <godbyk> basically, is there any way we can improve the translation process?
[22:56] <godbyk> what software would it take to do it?
[22:57] <godbyk> (if we had to write our own, quickshot-style)
[22:58] <dutchie> I don't think there's a better solution really, without reinventing translations from the ground up
[22:58] <Red_HamsterX> Sounds fun.
[22:58] <Red_HamsterX> (No, really)
[22:59] <Red_HamsterX> Programmatically assign a unique ID to each paragraph and version-control each language against those IDs.
[22:59] <Red_HamsterX> Something like a GUID system.
[22:59] <godbyk> dutchie: hmm... well, that's a less than satisfactory answer. :)
[23:00] <Red_HamsterX> Then pull the conent, by GUID, into a LaTeX template and go.
[23:00] <Red_HamsterX> Sounds like a Masters project!
[23:01] <Red_HamsterX> (LaTeX/whatever)
[23:01] <donri> I'm curious why you didn't use docbook for the manual?
[23:01] <Red_HamsterX> Probably give the reference implementation a Leo-style GUI...
[23:01] <Red_HamsterX> LaTeX is awesome.
[23:02] <dutchie> if it comes down to it, we can patch rosetta
[23:02] <godbyk> donri: that decision was made before my time.  but one advantage to latex is that it's easier for people to mark up, I think.
[23:03] <godbyk> there's less markup in a .tex file than a docbook file.
[23:03] <godbyk> we'd have to go from docbook to tex to get good pdfs anyway.
[23:03] <donri> But how good HTML do you get from LaTeX?
[23:03] <dutchie> that wasn't a consideration
[23:03] <godbyk> donri: good question.  I haven't messed with that, too much.
[23:04] <godbyk> the original goal was a pdf
[23:04] <godbyk> html is down the list a ways.
[23:04] <donri> I'm curious because we're converting a 700 page book to some better source format.
[23:04] <dutchie> 700?
[23:04] <donri> Yep.
[23:04] <donri> The Complete Lojban Language.
[23:04] <dutchie> blimey
[23:05] <godbyk> if your authors/editors/whoever are familiar with docbook/xml, then I'd say go for it.
[23:05] <godbyk> but for our situation, I think latex was the better choice.
[23:05]  * godbyk doesn't know too much about docbook.
[23:06]  * Red_HamsterX knows a fair bit about Docbook, having had to use it when writing the Yelp docs.
[23:06] <donri> Preference?
[23:06] <godbyk> Red_HamsterX: how do you like it?
[23:06] <Red_HamsterX> It makes for nice linked documents.
[23:06] <Red_HamsterX> Which is probably more helpful in an online system.
[23:06] <godbyk> Red_HamsterX: and how easy is it to define new elements and convert them to latex code?
[23:06] <Red_HamsterX> I'd always pick LaTeX for anything formal/printed/monolithic, though.
[23:07] <Red_HamsterX> No idea. I've never translated between the two.
[23:07] <donri> We print, but also want linked per-chapter-or-section HTML.
[23:07] <Red_HamsterX> You'd probably want Docbook, then.
[23:07] <donri> Aye.
[23:08] <Red_HamsterX> http://stellvia.uguu.ca/pyrc/Dictionaries/ That's from about four hours of Docbook hacking, with no custom CSS or formatting rules.
[23:08] <Red_HamsterX> It's pretty easy to create intelligent structures.
[23:08] <Red_HamsterX> (Generated back in 2007)
[23:09] <donri> http://dag.github.com/cilre/place-structure.xml Docbook with custom XSL+CSS. :)
[23:10] <Red_HamsterX> Yeah, Docbook generated very pretty content for screen-oriented environments.
[23:10] <Red_HamsterX> generates*
[23:10] <Red_HamsterX> (I had no need to make my API reference pretty, though)
[23:11] <Red_HamsterX> (I just needed something I could use to write plugins)
[23:11] <donri> But I see no reason why you can't just generate LaTeX from Docbook?
[23:11] <donri> Or do you loose a lot of valuable LaTeX power?
[23:12]  * dutchie hunts for the original meeting
[23:12] <Red_HamsterX> Dunno. My experience playing with the XSLTs was limited to HTML translations and pulling data from various files, broken up into sections of chapters.
[23:12] <dutchie> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/01/02/%23ubuntu-meeting.html
[23:13] <godbyk> donri: you can generate latex from docbook, but you'd probably want to clean it up a lot before printing.
[23:13] <Red_HamsterX> LaTeX's markup isn['t overly complicated, though. It would be pretty easy to encapsulate everything important based on the output of Docbook.
[23:13] <Red_HamsterX> But you'd be wasting a lot of Docbook's processing power.
[23:13] <donri> godbyk, because the default XSLTs suck or even with custom XSLTs?
[23:13] <godbyk> there's a lot of nit-picky typography stuff that can't be handled with a simple format translation.
[23:13] <Red_HamsterX> Can't you encapsulate almost everything in nested {}, godbyk?
[23:14] <Red_HamsterX> (At the expense of readability)
[23:14] <godbyk> Red_HamsterX: What do you mean?
[23:14] <Red_HamsterX> Nothing. I think we're envisioning different problems.
[23:15]  * Red_HamsterX returns to scripting the Quickshot patch thing.
[23:15] <godbyk> Some examples of the nit-picky typography: You may need to adjust the space after a period if the sentence ends in a capital letter (e.g., if the final word is an acronym).
[23:15] <godbyk> I don't think an XSLT will do that for you.
[23:15] <godbyk> Ah.
[23:15] <Red_HamsterX> It could. It'd just be ungodly painful.
[23:15] <donri> Why would I need to do that?
[23:15] <Red_HamsterX> Or you'd have to create a <nullspace/> tag.
[23:16] <Red_HamsterX> (And translate it to the appropriate LaTeX function/string)
[23:16] <godbyk> donri: TeX will use an inter-sentence space after a period if the letter before the period is lowercase.  If it's uppercase, it'll assume that it's an initial in a name (e.g., J. S. Bach) and not use the inter-sentence space.
[23:16] <godbyk> Yeah, you'd have to create a bunch of little tags.
[23:16] <donri> Is that space different?
[23:17] <donri> Can't I just make it the same?
[23:17] <donri> Or does it guide wrapping and stuff?
[23:17] <godbyk> And there are times when you may want to adjust things manually. And that's usually dependent upon a particular .tex document (i.e., the adjustments may change or go away if you add a word to the document).
[23:17] <Red_HamsterX> It's a presentation thing. If you subscribe to old-school conventions, you're supposed to put two spaces after a sentence-ending period.
[23:18] <Red_HamsterX> Arguably, it does loot a lot nicer in print.
[23:18] <Red_HamsterX> look*
[23:18] <godbyk> The space after an initial (like J. S. Bach) should be smaller than the space between two sentences.
[23:19] <donri> So if I don't care too much about that stuff, I could still get pretty good PDFs with Docbook?
[23:19] <Red_HamsterX> Well, you could set a LaTeX formatting rule to always use the smaller space...
[23:20] <Red_HamsterX> Docbook will generate PDFs that look at least as good as the webpages it produces.
[23:20] <donri> Often, generated PDFs tend to be quite boring. The manual looks awesome.
[23:20] <donri> Docbook's default HTML templates look shit. :)
[23:20] <donri> Maybe just need some CSS.
[23:20] <Red_HamsterX> Custom CSS helps a lot.
[23:21] <Red_HamsterX> It makes the difference between an API reference and something non-programmers can appreciate. =P
[23:21] <donri> I'm a programmer and I can't stand ugly documentation. :D
[23:21] <Red_HamsterX> :(
[23:21] <donri> I love Sphinx.
[23:21]  * Red_HamsterX cares more about structure than presentation.
[23:21] <Red_HamsterX> I love Epydoc.
[23:21] <dutchie> up to sv.po
[23:22] <donri> Better presentation better presents structure more structuredly.
[23:23] <Red_HamsterX> Better structure makes the presented information more structurally presentable.
[23:24] <donri> Sphinx does structure awesomely. :)
[23:25] <Red_HamsterX> LaTeX makes math pretty. QED.
[23:25] <dutchie> this is true
[23:25] <donri> Sphinx embeds LaTeX math.
[23:26] <Red_HamsterX> (Yeah, I know that's not what this debate is about)
[23:26] <godbyk> I think the presentation should reinforce the structure.
[23:26] <Red_HamsterX> ...Well, drat.
[23:26] <Red_HamsterX> You win.
[23:26] <donri> And graphviz graphs.
[23:26] <dutchie> all of my recent maths coursework has been done in latex, stored in git and replicated via my vps
[23:26] <godbyk> donri: http://kevin.godby.org/temp/space.pdf  Here are a few examples of different spacing that can be used.
[23:27] <godbyk> Just for fun.
[23:27] <godbyk> The first is the default spacing if you write "J. S. Bach"
[23:27] <godbyk> The second uses a custom space that I created (a hair space).
[23:27] <godbyk> The third uses a thin space.
[23:27] <Red_HamsterX> Half-spacing on the third line?
[23:27] <godbyk> And the fourth uses the sentence space.
[23:28] <donri> I prefer Beethoven. :)
[23:28] <Red_HamsterX> The third is the easiest one to read, IMO.
[23:30] <godbyk> I'm a pedant, but I think small details like that go a long way.
[23:31] <dutchie> \o/ pedantry
[23:31] <Red_HamsterX> They help a lot when skimming, which is exactly what more users would do.
[23:31] <Red_HamsterX> most*
[23:31] <godbyk> I think that even though most people won't consciously notice that there's too much or too little space here or there, that it still affects their reading.
[23:32] <donri> Yea, our issue is we have 700 pages to convert, and we need it to be good both in print and on the web.
[23:32] <dutchie> considered texinfo? ;)
[23:32] <godbyk> donri: I'd give docbook a try then.  Parsing latex is nearly impossible, so you don't want that to be your main source.
[23:33] <godbyk> but you'll probably want to go through the generated tex file to tweak things.
[23:33] <dutchie> info == beardy gnu rubbish
[23:49] <dutchie> po4a has until midnight or until I have applied this patch to finish, or I'm going to bed
[23:51] <godbyk> dutchie: I've had po4a get stuck in an infinite loop before when it's trying to deal with a malformed .tex file.
[23:51] <godbyk> (i.e., if main.tex doesn't compile, po4a freaks but doesn't tell you)
[23:52] <dutchie> how handy
[23:52] <dutchie> I've never got it stuck, it just takes ages to update the translations
[23:52]  * dutchie still has the source checked out of bloody CVS (!) somewhere to read through at some point
[23:53] <dutchie> I can't believe cvs still exists
[23:53] <dutchie> it should be banned under human rights laws
[23:54] <godbyk> lol. no doubt.