[00:21] <akgraner> what is the link to the Share Ubuntu stuff?  anyone know off the top of your head?
[00:25] <czajkowski> akgraner: do you mean spread ubuntu ?
[00:25] <czajkowski> http://spreadubuntu.neomenlo.org/
[03:24] <IdleOne> scuse the up coming flood
[03:24] <IdleOne> CONTEXT:
[03:24] <IdleOne> [22:17:28] <IdleOne> could use a strong voice at UDS to get more support
[03:24] <IdleOne> [22:17:37] <pleia2> I had an hour long call with Amber last night about it and other related things
[03:24] <IdleOne> [22:17:44] <pleia2> and I hate phones :)
[03:24] <IdleOne> [22:18:01] <andrew> but.. your g1?
[03:24] <IdleOne> [22:18:03] <IdleOne> yeah I see wiki updates in my inbox several times a day :)
[03:24] <IdleOne> [22:18:13] <pleia2> she's been busy so I've been picking up the slack, but gosh I don't know anything about translations
[03:24] <IdleOne> [22:18:25] <pleia2> she's going to have a translations dude look at the howtotranslatewikis doc
[03:24] <IdleOne> [22:19:08] <IdleOne> pleia2: all you need to know right now is that informally we are kicking butt. Imagine what could happen with full support and people who know how to get this organized properly
[03:25] <IdleOne> [22:19:51] <pleia2> yeah :)
[03:25] <IdleOne> [22:21:01] <pleia2> I was actually more willing to let the translations slide than the language-based subteams
[03:25] <IdleOne> [22:21:15] <pleia2> those subteams could be awesome or awful
[03:25] <IdleOne> [22:21:46] <pleia2> and having a dozen spring up because people get excited would probably make things lean toward awful :)
[03:25] <IdleOne> [22:21:53] <IdleOne> I think I might need to put back the Translators page for someone else who can pick it up. I am getting a some extra hours at work
[03:25] <IdleOne> [22:22:07] <IdleOne> pleia2: I have to agree with that
[03:25] <IdleOne> [22:22:28] <IdleOne> unless there is strong leaders who are willing to get in there and work hard
[03:25] <IdleOne> [22:22:30] <pleia2> I am hoping that once we get the howto page done we can call it quits on the translations page (except for the signup bit, that will always change)
[03:25] <IdleOne> [22:22:44] <pleia2> akgraner suggested getting some loco teams involved
[03:25] <IdleOne> [22:22:54] <IdleOne> that would be best
[03:25] <IdleOne> [22:23:21] <IdleOne> loco's already have the team structure and can mobilize
[03:26] <elky> Can I just say *SQUEE* to all this reeeeeeeeeeally overdue localisation stuff that's happening?
[03:26] <IdleOne> sure :)
[03:26] <maco> hehe
[03:26] <elky> SQUEE! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
[03:27] <akgraner> :-)
[03:27] <pleia2> hehe
[03:27] <IdleOne> So anyway all you nice folks in LoCo's from all around the world, it would be awesome if you could get your people to start translating the wiki.ubuntu-women.org pages :)
[03:27] <elky> pleia2 would remember how we've tried to ignite this before, but our monolingualness has stalled it soooo bad
[03:28] <maco> hmmm my loco mostly speaks english
[03:28] <IdleOne> maco: your set then
[03:28] <maco> IdleOne: and nothing else
[03:28] <IdleOne> but you do read/write russian
[03:28] <elky> maco, *cough*Privilege*cough*
[03:28] <pleia2> elky: yeah, it's nice to have multi-language people around!
[03:28] <IdleOne> s/you/YOU
[03:29]  * akgraner needs to learn some other language
[03:30] <akgraner> my German teacher told me  not to speak it  - to only demonstrate I could read and write it - she mumbled something about my Southern accent :-/
[03:30] <IdleOne> pleia2: in that HowToTranslate this wiki page. I think it would be good if we held on to the Ubuntu-Women term and not translate it
[03:31] <akgraner> but I admire people who speak other languages -- I think that is so cool
[03:31] <maco> IdleOne: if you mean "look at cyrillic and pronounce but not understand it"...
[03:31] <elky> I rather agree with IdleOne here. It's like a wordmark.
[03:31] <IdleOne> elky: exactly
[03:31] <maco> elky: i would think with more privilege they'd have gone to a school that taught them a second language...
[03:32] <IdleOne> and maco I didn't understand what you just said to me :/
[03:32] <maco> IdleOne: i can read russian into speaking-out-loud, but i wont know what it means
[03:32] <elky> maco, English privilege: being able to get through lift not thinking about needing that stuff.
[03:32] <IdleOne> maco: ohhh
[03:32] <elky> er, s/lift/life/
[03:33] <maco> IdleOne: my russian vocabulary is only about 20 words nowadays, and 10 of them are numbers.
[03:33] <IdleOne> ok so no russian translation for you
[03:35] <IdleOne> ummm I am probably off the mark here but akgraner I apologize if I keep side stepping you and going to pleia2 with my ideas
[03:36] <maco> elky: i would put "doesnt know any foreign languages" in the "did not have the privilege of a good school" category, regardless where one lives
[03:36] <pleia2> s'just because IdleOne and I are drinking buddies
[03:36] <IdleOne> haha
[03:36] <pleia2> (I drink, he listens :P)
[03:36] <IdleOne> I listen good
[03:36] <IdleOne> she drinks better
[03:36] <IdleOne> lol
[03:36] <pleia2> haha
[03:36] <akgraner> IdleOne, don't apologize
[03:36] <akgraner> IdleOne, we are a team
[03:36] <akgraner> :-)
[03:36] <IdleOne> akgraner: :)
[03:36] <elky> maco, I had the opportunity to learn Mandarin. I did not have the desperate need to do so for sake of succeeding in life.
[03:37] <maco> and? english isnt necessary to succeed everywhere...
[03:37] <IdleOne> mmm sake
[03:37] <maco> sometimes our communities try to *make it so*
[03:37] <elky> s/try//
[03:37] <maco> i think this translation thing is proof that we're actively trying NOT to make it so
[03:38] <akgraner> IdleOne, I just keep track of the big picture and help facilitate where I can :-)
[03:38] <elky> maco, Want a cookie?
[03:38] <maco> for anyone needing to interact with anyone else in a foreign country, being a monoglot is rather a disadvantage. it just depends what country you're trying to interact with.
[03:38] <IdleOne> akgraner: ok the big picture is ( as I see it ) concerning this translation project. We need everybody to help :)
[03:39] <elky> maco, next time you come across keffie_jayx, ask him how english literacy is a privilege.
[03:40] <akgraner> IdleOne, yep :-)
[03:40] <elky> Don't take my word for it, take the word of someone who lives in a country where it matters a hell of a lot.
[03:40] <maco> where does he live again?
[03:40] <elky> Venezuela
[03:41] <maco> but wouldnt someone who doesnt know spanish be at a disadvantage in venezuela?
[03:41] <akgraner> elky does 1200UTC work for you better than 2200 UTC?
[03:41] <maco> even if they spoke english?
[03:41] <akgraner> for IRC meetings?
[03:41] <elky> maco, no.
[03:41] <maco> (i recall this being problematic for me in france)
[03:42] <elky> maco, he describes to me how people who come to venezuela expect venezuelans to speak english, and translators are provided if the recipient audience is unable to. Venezuelans who visit the US are expected to speak english.
[03:42] <akgraner> dang that was phrased badly but I hope you know what I meant
[03:43] <maco> elky: hrmph. silly english-only people ought to be paying for translators, not having them handed to them free
[03:44] <elky> maco, English Privilege.
[03:44] <maco> solution: stop providing free translation service
[03:44] <elky> And this helps the 3rd world gain 1st world help how?
[03:44] <maco> venezuela's the third world???
[03:44] <elky> Pretty much.
[03:45] <elky> Third world isn't just starving ethiopians.
[03:46] <elky> latin american countries kinda hug the border between third world and developing nations
[03:47] <elky> but still. It's not so easy as "stop handing the people with money incentives to invest in your local communities"
[03:47] <valorie> http://linuxgrandma.blogspot.com/2010/04/i-love-geeks-on-irc.html
[03:47] <valorie> happy April Fools, everybody
[03:47] <valorie> I'm off to see my dad
[03:48] <IdleOne> later valorie :)
[03:48] <maco> i tend to think of it more as "stop indulging the lazy americans who don't bother to learn at least one other language or even brush up on a few niceties before traveling abroad"
[03:48] <valorie> oops, that should have been in the other chan
[03:48] <valorie> sorry
[03:48] <elky> maco, yeah, it's not like that.
[03:50] <elky> maco, even in countries closer to the first world, english is a privilege. The shopkeeper in the tourist district that doesn't speak english is going to lose out to the other shopkeeper who does.
[03:51] <IdleOne> When I moved to PA I learned to speak the language, Spanish!
[03:52] <elky> Even in situations like Germans visiting Spain for example, when the Germans speak English, they are going to fall back to that to try communicate.
[03:52] <maco> IdleOne: heh spanish started in kindergarden when i was in school there
[03:53] <IdleOne> with 40+ million Spanish speaking people in the US I don't understand how it isn't an official language
[03:53] <pleia2> there are no official languages
[03:54] <maco> oh there is no way a shop could survive here without at least someone there speaking spanish
[03:54] <maco> (in my neighborhood i mean)
[03:54] <IdleOne> even in Canada where there are roughly 3-4 million French speaking people We have two official languages
[03:54] <maco> the US doesnt have an official language at all
[03:54] <IdleOne> yet it is english speaking
[03:55] <pleia2> you can get most federal documents in many languages
[03:55] <maco> depends where you are exactly
[03:55] <maco> some places are english speaking
[03:55] <maco> some, like miami, are not
[03:55] <maco> or are bilingual at least
[03:55] <IdleOne> well the goverment uses English
[03:55] <maco> IdleOne: old white men. it'll change ;-)
[03:55] <IdleOne> haha
[03:55] <akgraner> When Pete lived in Brno he learned Czech  - I even learned some as well (forgotten most of it now), but in Brno most people did not /would not speak English to us (the would speak German or Czech) but in Prague almost eveyone spoke English and you are right elky I tended to frequent those places that would speak English to me  - where as my kids and husband spoke enough Czech and German to get by almost anywhere  there
[03:55] <maco> (though one of my aunts down in florida says that she cant talk to people in her town pretty much at all because she doesnt speak spanish)
[03:56]  * IdleOne is all for old white men in power to not be there anymore
[03:56] <elky> akgraner, there are exceptions, sure.
[03:57] <maco> things i dont plan to do again: travel to non-english countries with my family
[03:57] <maco> (they seem to think "when in rome..." ends in "be obnoxious" instead of "do as the romans do")
[03:58] <IdleOne> lol
[03:58] <maco> (also: they *cannot* pack)
[03:58] <IdleOne> just that is reason enough
[03:58] <IdleOne> not being able to pack! OMG like WT..........
[03:58] <IdleOne> wait, I can't pack either
[03:59] <maco> i mean they can put stuff in suitcases...but they have to be BIG suitcases...and its far too much stuff
[03:59] <akgraner> so I am a big fan of learning the Language of where you are visiting - I told my kids they were not allowed to visit other countries and act like arrogant American brats - so they both pick up languages pretty quickly
[03:59] <maco> an italian man called my sister "bella" (beautiful) the first day we were there. she responded "prego" (you're welcome) instead of "grazi" (thank you)
[03:59] <IdleOne> maco: I compensate with my lack of packing ability with ability to carry all the suitcases and not complain about it
[04:00] <IdleOne> maco: that isn't so bad
[04:00] <akgraner> unlike their mother - :-/  I have a hard time with English at times :-)
[04:00] <IdleOne> he knew what she meant :)
[04:01] <IdleOne> I called a lady Sir today on the subway :/
[04:01] <maco> IdleOne: or at least all the nurses did. the bust out laughing (we were in the "salud mentale" part of l'ospidale waiting for our cousin to show up since he's a doctor there)
[04:01] <IdleOne> I felt like such a jerk
[04:01] <maco> IdleOne: or Peppermint Patty
[04:03] <IdleOne> it was really completely innocent. See there was this man who was not moving out of the lady's way so she could move to a better standing spot and I was thinking of telling the man to " Sir please make some room" and it came out "Sir here take my seat" :/ but I was looking right at the poor women :(
[04:03] <IdleOne> woman*
[04:03] <maco> so you accidentally gave away your seat?
[04:03] <IdleOne> haha NO I accidentally made an ass of myself and probably insulted the lady
[04:04] <IdleOne> but she smilled and took the seat
[04:04] <IdleOne> smiled*
[04:05]  * pleia2 nudges people back to -women
[04:05]  * IdleOne nudges back
[04:05] <pleia2> oh gosh, after mentioning it at the meeting and everything I STILL forgot to do to the team report
[04:06] <rww> pleia2: thanks for reminding me ;P
[04:06] <pleia2> :)
[04:07] <pleia2> neat, someone prettified our reporting page
[04:12] <elky> Yeah, I think akgraner and wikis are friends now.
[04:13] <pleia2> \o/
[04:13] <elky> I told her the big secret of how to do wiki stuff. Steal it, with prejudice.
[04:14] <IdleOne> In think the u-w wiki could use some flashy gifs
[04:14] <IdleOne> :)
[04:14] <akgraner> :-)  yep
[04:14] <akgraner> it's more love and so much less hate for wikis these days
[04:14] <IdleOne> and sparkles
[04:14] <IdleOne> lots and lots of sparkles
[04:14] <elky> IdleOne, assuming you mean animated ones, I am now going to stare at you until you repent and beg for mercy.
[04:14]  * elky commences glaring.
[04:15] <akgraner> IdleOne, I like clean lines but that is just me
[04:15] <akgraner> :-)
[04:15]  * IdleOne glares back
[04:15]  * IdleOne does not blink
[04:15] <pleia2> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu-women.org/+spec/ubuntu-women-project-m-goals is our current blueprint for -m, right?
[04:15] <akgraner> I think that is why I like our wikis so much
[04:15] <IdleOne> errr elky is like a cat, she can stare down a statue :(
[04:15] <akgraner> yep I need to add the stuff in the right format
[04:16] <akgraner> pleia2, ^^^
[04:16]  * IdleOne takes back the animated flashy gif stuff
[04:16] <pleia2> akgraner: ok thanks, just adding a link to our report
[04:16] <elky> Whee!
[04:16]  * elky hugs IdleOne
[04:16]  * IdleOne hugs back
[04:16] <akgraner> yep I'll get it in before Saturday night
[04:16] <IdleOne> pleia2: should I do the little lower joke on elky?
[04:16] <IdleOne> lol
[04:16] <akgraner> so I don't have to worry about on Sunday as my Sunday's are all UWN these days :-)
[04:17] <pleia2> I was wondering, do we want ubuntu membership to be a requirement for team leadership?
[04:17] <pleia2> I think it sets a good example
[04:17] <IdleOne> :(
[04:17] <IdleOne> pleia2: for team leadership?
[04:17] <pleia2> IdleOne: our project encourages involvement, and to gain membership
[04:18] <elky> pleia2, I think so. We used to expect it for irc ops, but then a few declined despite eligability. I think for a leadership position though it should be.
[04:18]  * pleia2 nods
[04:18] <elky> especially, as you say, one that wants to foster that exact action
[04:18] <IdleOne> probably a good idea yeah
[04:18] <akgraner> I think so too but I was wondering as a side why do leaders not have to sign the leader CoC
[04:18] <IdleOne> guess I need to get my act together and go for membership at some point
[04:19] <pleia2> by signing the CoC you agree to the LCoC, it's at the bottom
[04:19] <IdleOne> akgraner: they should
[04:19] <IdleOne> ops have to agree to it also
[04:19] <akgraner> I know but do you know how many "leaders" don't know about the LCoC
[04:19] <pleia2> "In addition to this Code of Conduct, we hold our community leaders (such as IRC operators, Forums staff, team leaders and LoCo coordinators) to an even higher standard which is documented in the Leadership Code of Conduct."
[04:20] <elky> akgraner, mostly the ones that have been incumbent since last decade
[04:20] <pleia2> yeah, I wish people would actually read the CoC before signing it
[04:20] <pleia2> it's not just a TOS :)
[04:20] <elky> (tehehe, i love saying that)
[04:21] <akgraner> pleia2, I was just curious that's all and thought maybe it was just me that encounter that
[04:21] <elky> pleia2, ircland effectively declares it the ToS though. It's the only way we can enforce it.
[04:21] <pleia2> elky: fair enough, not "just" a ToS then :)
[04:22] <elky> pleia2, yeah. there's a difference between adopting it as such, and becoming a signatory to it
[04:22] <IdleOne> I had to sign a CoC for work :/
[04:22] <IdleOne> made sure I read it completely
[04:22]  * pleia2 nods
[04:22] <IdleOne> I didn't want to agree to anything really stupid
[04:23] <IdleOne> turns out that it was just a piece of paper and nobody really follows or enforces it
[04:24] <pleia2> heh
[04:26] <IdleOne> I have heard people tell racist jokes right to the face of black people
[04:26] <IdleOne> and it just passes like nothing
[04:26] <IdleOne> anyway not uw related sorry
[04:28] <pleia2> ok, in case I missed anything: http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/ReportingPage
[04:29] <IdleOne> umm translation project?
[04:30] <IdleOne> not discussed in any formal fashion
[04:31] <pleia2> it's on there
[04:31] <pleia2> linked to your email starting the discussion
[04:32] <IdleOne> ohh haha I skipped right over it
[04:32] <pleia2> :)
[04:32] <IdleOne> :)
[04:32] <IdleOne> then it is perfect :)
[04:32]  * pleia2 bows
[04:32] <pleia2> ;)
[04:32] <pleia2> oh, amber was on floss weekly!
[04:34] <akgraner> pleia2, yeah remind me to thank you for telling the whole wide world :-P
[04:34] <pleia2> :D
[04:34] <IdleOne> haha
[04:35] <pleia2> gosh, we were busy in march
[04:36] <IdleOne> Let's keep it up!
[04:36] <IdleOne> idle hands and all that
[04:39] <IdleOne> I forgot that the mailing list is a formal discussion forum
[04:39] <pleia2> :)
[04:39] <pleia2> that's where we prefer to do it TBH
[04:39] <pleia2> meetings and irc here are grand, but we reach more people with the list
[04:39] <IdleOne> yes, gets more people involved
[04:39] <akgraner> yep and we can point more people to the list links
[04:40] <IdleOne> I think we got 3-4 people from the ML who started to translate and I know I got two people from the global jam
[04:41] <pleia2> :D
[04:42] <IdleOne> I'll be able to devote more time starting next week to translating. my schedule changed and I will be starting at 10am
[04:43] <IdleOne> I do my best work in the morning lol
[04:55] <elky> akgraner, i had like thirty bajillion people tell me they heard my name mentioned on floss weekly :P
[04:56] <akgraner> elky, yeah I talked about ya :-P
[04:56] <akgraner> did you not listen - that earns a kick :-P
[04:56] <elky> I'm not sure they took a moment to think "oh, this person says she works on stuff with melissa, can't possibly have told her, i'd better clue melissa in"
[04:57] <elky> I did. I'm still being told daily
[04:57] <akgraner> hehe
[04:57] <akgraner> :-P
[04:57] <akgraner> yeah so I tried to mention a ton of people as the UW Project is not about me but the team
[05:00] <elky> sofa_repo is um... trying to stir us up.
[05:00] <maco> yes
[05:00] <maco> im trying to rebuff without escalating
[05:01] <maco> and hope he gets bored
[05:04] <svaksha> maco: he doesnt seem to get the message
[05:15] <akgraner> hey all  - so we need to announce world play day before the next meeting - so elky and I were tweaking the proposed announcement - can you all take a look and see what you think?  http://etherpad.com/RjdKP1czI6
[05:17] <IdleOne> looking
[05:17]  * maco cant read
[05:18] <maco> i thought you were tweeding the announcement
[05:18] <maco> as in, covering it with tweed fabric
[05:18] <elky> ...
[05:18]  * elky bops maco over the head
[05:18] <maco> VIOLENCE!
[05:18] <akgraner> hehe
[05:18]  * pleia2 *likes* princess dolls
[05:18] <pleia2> :)
[05:19] <elky> pleia2, but you also like shiiiiiiiiiiny
[05:19] <pleia2> princesses can be hackers too! ;)
[05:19] <pleia2> not actually a critique, just sayin'
[05:19] <akgraner> hacker Barbie
[05:19] <IdleOne> So umm why a womans T?
[05:20] <IdleOne> I admit I didn't read the whole thing
[05:20] <pleia2> IdleOne: because the entrants are female...
[05:20] <akgraner> because it will give to a girl
[05:20] <akgraner> given
[05:20] <maco> pleia2: oh right! i need to buy you your pink wiimote!
[05:20] <maco> akgraner: wait shouldnt it be children's T then?
[05:20] <akgraner> they already sent it
[05:20] <IdleOne> what if a male wants to enter? /me read first, don't answer that
[05:21] <pleia2> why the no-derivatives license?
[05:21] <akgraner> and we went with least common denominator..
[05:21] <pleia2> IdleOne: the *point* is to get pictures of girls using computers, that's what we're showcasing ;)
[05:22] <pleia2> akgraner: that means we can't use them in a collage or anything
[05:22] <elky> maco, at worst it goes to a female parent or an aunt, or whatever
[05:22] <IdleOne> ok so it will be a T for the child
[05:22] <IdleOne> got it
[05:22] <pleia2> I'd lean toward attribution
[05:22] <maco> pleia2: we can get explicit permission for that, id think
[05:22]  * IdleOne learns to think/read before shooting off at the mouth
[05:22] <elky> this is all really project marketing stuff. laying the foundations to get eyes and contributors
[05:22] <akgraner> I just asked the question
[05:22] <maco> pleia2: it means other random folks cant use them for random stuff they dont have permission for
[05:23] <akgraner> I wasn't saying no to the derivatives
[05:23] <maco> (im sure there are noncommercial uses their parents still wouldnt be ok with)
[05:23] <akgraner> I was asking if we wanted to limit it
[05:23] <pleia2> maco: sure, and neither can we, or random locos who do educational outreach and want photos of girls too
[05:24] <elky> yeah, we should probably say 'for use by the ubuntu project'
[05:24] <akgraner> I am running the waiver/photo release past Canonical, mdke, and the CC
[05:24]  * pleia2 nods
[05:24] <elky> and a waiver is adequate for "remix" by the CC-nd-nc licences
[05:24] <elky> afaik
[05:24] <akgraner> elky, how did I word that in the waiver
[05:24]  * pleia2 winces at NC
[05:24] <maco> well right, its like a secondary license
[05:25] <elky> akgraner, i forget, but we can change it. the surrounding words
[05:25] <elky> maco, it's a waiving of rights
[05:25] <pleia2> did we explain to jono what random means?
[05:25] <akgraner> give my permission to the Ubuntu Project, which includes the Ubuntu Women Project
[05:25]  * pleia2 grins
[05:25] <elky> pleia2, i think he might know that one this time
[05:25] <pleia2> hehe
[05:25] <akgraner> hehe yes he knows :-)
[05:25] <pleia2> anyway, looks good :)
[05:25] <maco> oh hahah right
[05:25] <elky> I really wanted to cry last time.
[05:26] <elky> i think i had lyz and amber convinced i /was/
[05:26] <maco> pleia2: ive heard of people having images on flickr that their friends put up and they're in the pic and some corp takes the CC-BY photo and goes "great! we can photoshop in our project and use this for an ad!" and then they get Not Happy
[05:26] <cleaverroot> I made it
[05:26] <akgraner> hehe - well now that you mention it
[05:26] <elky> hi cleaverroot
[05:26] <maco> pleia2: s/project/product/
[05:27] <elky> cleaverroot, background: <akgraner> hey all  - so we need to announce world play day before the next meeting - so elky and I were tweaking the proposed announcement - can you all take a look and see what you think?  http://etherpad.com/RjdKP1czI6
[05:27] <pleia2> maco: yeah, but it also means your photo can't be used in a flier for an ubuntu class that doctormo charges $5 for to cover admin costs
[05:27] <akgraner> hi cleaverroot
[05:27] <maco> pleia2: i have *clearly* been around FOSS too much if i think of everything that gets made as "project"
[05:27] <cleaverroot> elky: hi
[05:27] <pleia2> anyway, that's why I like attribution :)
[05:27] <cleaverroot> brb then
[05:28] <JanC> I'm not entirely following this discussion, but in case of photographs of individuals, I suggest you restrict their usage somewhat
[05:28] <pleia2> JanC: yes, we are
[05:28] <maco> pleia2: though i think if more entities paid attention to the fact that you need both A) a license to the photo and B) a model waiver... then i'd put NC in the rubbish bin.
[05:28] <akgraner> crap which reminds me I need to tell Markdude I used one of his pics for something (he told me I could I just need to let him know what)
[05:28]  * maco looks back at last sentence
[05:29] <maco> i've been around british people too mcuh
[05:29] <JanC> otherwise it can be used for whatever (to promote cornflakes for example)
[05:29] <elky> I think we might want to hear what mdke/CC say
[05:29]  * pleia2 nods
[05:29] <pleia2> JanC: yes, that's been mentioned :)
[05:30] <JanC> pleia2: I didn't read all the scrollback yet  ☺
[05:30] <cleaverroot> maco: you started drinking tea too?
[05:30] <IdleOne> ok folks 6am is coming up fast, good night
[05:30] <akgraner> right I'll send the concerns in the  email to see how the permission should be worded
[05:30] <JanC> in some countries commercial usage needs special permission by the model, but e.g. in the Netherlands that's not required
[05:31] <elky> JanC, we're asking for a model release for all subjects of the photo
[05:31] <cleaverroot> Is that final copy?
[05:31] <pleia2> good night, IdleOne
[05:31] <elky> JanC, did you see the link at all?
[05:31] <pleia2> cleaverroot: it's the discussion copy (we're discussing it now)
[05:31] <akgraner> cleaverroot, nope we are tweaking it now
[05:32] <maco> cleaverroot: i said "rubbish" instead of "trash"
[05:32] <JanC> elky: what I mean is that a model release is not required in the Netherlands
[05:32] <elky> JanC, that's wonderful dear, i'm not in the netherlands.
[05:32] <elky> canonical is not either.
[05:32] <cleaverroot> k, I think it's a little clunky. I might move first paragraph to second and re-write a first one
[05:33] <elky> :)
[05:33] <maco> cleaverroot: i assume you mean the "Firstly, GO READ LINKS!" paragraph?
[05:34] <cleaverroot> no, I skipped that one I think that is fine
[05:34] <cleaverroot> let me try to mock one up see what you think
[05:34] <maco> your definition of "first" and my definition of "first" seem not to agree
[05:35] <pleia2> hehe
[05:35] <pleia2> no no, the OTHER first paragraph!
[05:35] <pleia2> :)
[05:35] <elky> your /other/ left.
[05:35] <JanC> I suggest you allow a non-commercial license, or maybe better a "non-commercial except to promote ubuntu" license
[05:36] <elky> JanC, a waiver is a waiving of licence rights in the case of the waiver recipient.
[05:36] <elky> not required does not mean not effective.
[05:36] <akgraner> cleaverroot, do you want the paragraph that starts "It hurts"  and the links paragraph
[05:36] <akgraner> after the links one I meant to say
[05:36] <akgraner> grrrrr
[05:37] <akgraner> I kinda like leading up the the heavy paragraph but what do you all think
[05:37] <JanC> what I mean is that with a photograph that's licensed as CC-BY-ND, every company can use that photograph, as long as they don't alter it
[05:39] <akgraner> dang  I *never* get to bed before midnight  - wow where does the time go?
[05:39] <maco> akgraner: its midnight? dang.
[05:39] <maco> oh REALLY DANG
[05:39] <akgraner> yeah - can you believe it
[05:39] <maco> homework is due at 2am grrrr
[05:39] <pleia2> it's not even 10 :D
[05:39] <elky> akgraner, i dont think this is going out before tomorrow anyway hon
[05:39] <maco> and takes like 6 hours
[05:39] <maco> im screwed
[05:40] <akgraner> elky, yeah - I'll get the email out the the CC, Canonical and mdke for feedback and we can shoot for Monday
[05:40] <elky> maco, eep, damn how that gastro bug knocked you around tonight isnt it.
[05:40] <akgraner> is that cool
[05:40]  * elky winks at maco
[05:40] <elky> akgraner, i think we can cope with monday, yeah
[05:40] <maco> elky: what what?
[05:40] <elky> akgraner, but im not sure easter weekend is going to work quite like that
[05:41] <elky> maco, email now saying you've been sick since after dinner. or whatever.
[05:41] <akgraner> dang I knew I forgot something today -
[05:41] <maco> elky: had a week to do it. he'll just say i shouldve done it yesterday
[05:41] <elky> maco, :(
[05:41] <maco> akgraner: to buy baskets?
[05:41] <elky> then stop yapping, start tapping.
[05:41] <pleia2> and bunnies!
[05:41] <akgraner> no Mass..
[05:41] <pleia2> oops
[05:41] <elky> akgraner, oops!
[05:42] <akgraner> yeah - no wonder my kids were confused  *mom fail*
[05:43] <akgraner> they did not protest too much though :-/
[05:43] <akgraner> hmmm
[05:43] <akgraner> anywho so Tuesday may be the better target date
[05:43] <elky> yeah
[05:44] <akgraner> on my TODO list and with that I am running away - catch you all laters :-)
[05:44] <maco> akgraner: ooh holy thursday?
[05:44] <elky> nini
[05:44] <akgraner> maco, yep elky night
[05:44] <maco> sunday... that means NEW DOCTOR WHO!
[05:44] <pleia2> yaaay!!
[05:46] <JanC> maybe I should put it somewhat clearer: in the Netherlands, a photo released under a CC-BY-ND license by its photographer could be used by a neo-nazi party as the primary picture for their election campaign
[05:47] <JanC> (in the Netherlands)
[05:47] <JanC> that's why I want you to allow NC
[05:48] <pleia2> JanC: we're working to restrict usage within the ubuntu project, NC makes it so loco teams who charge admin fees for events can't use them, and in general NC is messy business in the US anyway
[05:48] <JanC> or at least restrict to commercial use involving Ubuntu; people wanting to use that photograph for good purposes can always ask
[05:48] <JanC> right
[05:48] <elky> ok, that is clearer. I still want to hear what mdke and the rest of the CC say first
[05:49] <JanC> I mention this because there is some well-known case-law in the Netherlands about people used in commercials without their permission  ;)
[05:50] <JanC> and I don't live in the Netherlands, and don't agree with those laws, but they seem to be real...  :-/
[05:53] <elky> can you cite cases that the legal folk might be able to refer to?
[05:53] <cleaverroot> k, wrot a short paragraph where do you want me to upload it to
[05:54] <JanC> I can find a blog post in Dutch
[05:55] <elky> cleaverroot, etherpad can rewind edits, you can put it right there in the etherpad document itself :)
[05:55] <cleaverroot> elky: ty
[05:58] <JanC> elky: http://blog.iusmentis.com/2008/07/03/geen-portretrecht-bij-op-straat-genomen-foto/
[06:00] <JanC> http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=nl&ie=UTF-8&sl=nl&tl=en&u=http://blog.iusmentis.com/2008/07/03/geen-portretrecht-bij-op-straat-genomen-foto/&prev=_t
[06:01] <cleaverroot> k, put in my 2 cents :)
[06:02] <JanC> basically, in the Netherlands you have to prove your portrait is of commercial value  (which I find odd, as the mere fact that it's used commercially should prove that, but apparently dutch judges don't agree with me...)
[06:05] <JanC> (and the English translation by google is *really* bad :P )
[06:05] <elky> JanC, yeah.
[06:05] <cleaverroot> english translation by google on anything is really bad but eh
[06:06] <elky> yes, but this particular one is exceptionally so
[06:06] <cleaverroot> lol
[06:06] <JanC> cleaverroot: actually, hebrew->english seems to work a lot better than english->dutch  :P
[06:06] <cleaverroot> JanC: really
[06:07] <JanC> at least as far as my experience goes
[06:07] <JanC> it's the first time I tried nl->en
[06:08] <elky> the spanish stuff isn't too bad
[06:08] <cleaverroot> do you think that is because more emphasis has been put on that by google or that it is more easily translated into english?
[06:09] <JanC> maybe it's used more
[06:09] <cleaverroot> JanC: good point
[06:10] <cleaverroot> has everyone tried 10.04 yet
[06:10] <elky> yes. I want my tooltips back.
[06:11] <cleaverroot> lol
[06:11] <nigelb> me too
[06:11] <JanC> I've been running it on 2 systems for soem time
[06:11] <cleaverroot> so far I'm super happy with it
[06:11] <elky> also, this is a non-project discussion, so we should take it back to the regular #ubuntu-women channel :)
[06:11] <cleaverroot> sorry
[06:11] <JanC> and I want something to flash/move when I get an IM message back  ;)
[06:12] <cleaverroot> did you guys like my redo of the intro paragraph?
[06:14] <JanC> responding to my jabber buddies after 1 day because I didn't see earlier is embarrassing  :-/
[06:15] <elky> cleaverroot, im looking at it. I think you have some points. I'll see how I can integrate it with the current paragraph
[06:16] <cleaverroot> elky: cool, I wasn't trying to say anything new just rephrasing trying to make it less clunky
[06:16] <cleaverroot> don't know that I did any better :-)
[06:25] <elky> thanks for the help :)
[06:29] <cleaverroot> meant to say it here: anytime :-)
[06:29] <elky> yeah, that was my fault, i noted my edit in the wrong channel ;)
[06:32] <cleaverroot> elky: and I didn't pay attn; so my fault too
[06:32] <cleaverroot> I'm new to this irc thing :)
[07:42] <czajkowski> aloha
[08:02] <cleaverroot> back
[08:24] <AlanBell> elky: JanC just FYI and related to what I see in the scrollback, I have no opinion on the matter personally http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8094420.stm
[08:36] <Tm_T> good morning everyone
[09:13]  * Tm_T huggles AlanBell
[09:39] <elky> Tm_T, ping me re -women if he gets all shirty again
[09:43] <Tm_T> will do
[09:44] <elky> oh for heck sake
[10:21] <elky> special request: please don't engage with bacta.
[10:22] <czajkowski> http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/336
[10:22] <czajkowski> 10.10 announced
[10:22] <etali1> elky; Ah, sorry.  I think I completely misread what he said anyway.  Just got up and not coffeed yet.
[10:23] <elky> and already twitter has the monkey one :(
[10:23] <etali1> I'd been really hoping for Moose, but the reasoning behind Meerkat sounds good, I guess.
[10:26] <elky> moose is too elegant for a post-lts release, really
[10:27] <elky> typically it's a post-lts release we'd be doing crazy stuff like vast UI changes and trialling the dropping of features, but hey, whatever.
[10:28] <etali1> With Maverick in the name, the next few months could be interesting...
[10:29] <czajkowski> hmm I really should get up and drive
[10:29] <czajkowski> but now the rain has started ugh
[10:30] <elky> i hear it's still snowing over there
[10:31] <czajkowski> was tuesday
[10:31] <czajkowski> was rather odd. wedn and yesterday pretty warm spring days and now lashing rain
[19:18] <pleia2> ooh, http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/It has begun!
[19:19] <IdleOne> :)
[19:19] <IdleOne> [14:16:20] <IdleOne> issyl0: it is going great from what I can tell. We got a lot of response from people adding theself to the sign up page
[19:19] <IdleOne> [14:17:18] <nigelbabu> pleia2, I dont think you look too overweight.  you look perfect :)
[19:19] <IdleOne> [14:17:33] <issyl0> IdleOne: ah, brilliant.
[19:19] <IdleOne> [14:17:35] <nigelbabu> (judging from the photos I've seen recently)
[19:19] <IdleOne> [14:17:44] <Pendulum> I was thinner, but I wasn't really eating at that point. And then I started eating again, but had completely messed my metabolism up.
[19:19] <IdleOne> [14:17:58] <Tm_T> pleia2: ah, I tend to fight against those social pressures, otherwise I would be something totally else what I am
[19:19] <IdleOne> [14:18:11] <elly> ==!
[19:19] <IdleOne> [14:18:43] <IdleOne> ubuntu-qc has myseld and two other people doing translation and estelle I saw add to the French wiki also. Italian,Spanish,Brazilia pages are started
[19:19] <pleia2> IdleOne: did you get permission to paste that?
[19:20] <IdleOne> [14:18:49] <IdleOne> myself*
[19:20] <IdleOne> [14:19:12] <pleia2> if you guys could take the translations talk into -project so it's logged that'd be awesome :)
[19:20] <IdleOne> [14:19:14] <IdleOne> really exciting to see how many people jumped in and started helping :)
[19:20] <issyl0> IdleOne: ??
[19:20] <IdleOne> [14:19:24] <Tm_T> good point there
[19:20] <IdleOne> [14:19:31] <pleia2> a lot of our translators aren't on IRC, they may depend on logs
[19:20] <IdleOne> errr
[19:20] <nigelbabu> IdleOne, what just happened?
[19:20] <IdleOne> :( sorry I didn't ask
[19:20] <issyl0> IdleOne: you spammer :P
[19:20] <pleia2> IdleOne: please dont re-post from -women unless ou have permission
[19:20]  * pleia2 is not entirely pleased that her weight talk got pasted :(
[19:20]  * pleia2 sighs
[19:20] <IdleOne> Pendulum: Tm_T elly I am very sorry
[19:20] <IdleOne> pleia2: I did not think before I did it
[19:21] <IdleOne> I am very very sorry and it will NEVER happen again
[19:21]  * nigelbabu isn't very happy either about the weight talk being pasted
[19:22] <pleia2> oh well
[19:22] <IdleOne> nigelbabu I apologise to you also
[19:23] <nigelbabu> :/
[19:24] <Tm_T> but but, translations !
[19:25] <pleia2> yes, the Italian folks have started theirs!
[19:25] <pleia2> hey Dolasilla :)
[19:25] <Dolasilla> hi pleia2! :)
[19:25] <Dolasilla> here is a piece of Italian folks! ;)
[19:25] <pleia2> IdleOne: how did you reference the images on Fr? did you add them as attachments?
[19:26] <raghs> where am i ?
[19:26] <raghs> in ubuntu- women channel ?
[19:26] <pleia2> raghs: this is #ubuntu-women-project
[19:26] <IdleOne> pleia2: umm I believe I did
[19:26] <IdleOne> lemme look
[19:26] <nigelbabu> I heard a lot of good things about the italian team
[19:26] <nigelbabu> even TV interviews about Ubuntu
[19:27] <Dolasilla> pleia2: I didn't have much time today, but I fear I'll have to re-upload the images to show them in the italian version
[19:28] <Dolasilla> :d tnx nigelbabu, tv interviews are due to Flavia, our press-office ;)
[19:28] <nigelbabu> Dolasilla, wow :)
[19:28] <pleia2> Flavia is great
[19:28] <Dolasilla> :) yes she's doing a great job!
[19:29] <IdleOne> there is a way to reference to the images. for the Header use <<Include(UWMenuHeaderXX)>> where the XX is the language code
[19:29] <Dolasilla> mm ok IdleOne, and then how can I modify the UWMenuHeaderIT part? to translate it?
[19:30] <IdleOne> the header also needs to be translated a little and the images uploaded but then you can use <<Include on other pages
[19:30] <IdleOne> Dolasilla: http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/UWMenuHeader is the english version
[19:30] <IdleOne> translate it and create a wiki page for It
[19:31] <Dolasilla> ok, so as I include the IT version in my page the new wiki page will be automatically created, right?
[19:31] <IdleOne> then  <<Include(UWMenuHeaderIt)>> at the top of your wiki pages
[19:31] <Dolasilla> k
[19:31] <raghs>  both are same ?
[19:32] <IdleOne> Dolasilla: you will have to upload the Images to the wiki.ubuntu-women.org/It/UWMeneHeaderIt page
[19:32] <Dolasilla> so I have to download them from the english page and then re-upload them
[19:33] <Dolasilla> isn't there a way to directly reference the english page's ones?
[19:34] <IdleOne> Dolasilla: if there is I don't know how :/
[19:34] <IdleOne> akgraner: might know
[19:34] <IdleOne> nigelbabu: ^^^?
[19:34] <IdleOne> maybe nigelbabu knows
[19:34]  * nigelbabu reads scroll back
[19:35] <Dolasilla> ok, IdleOne, otherwise, nevermind, it was just not to upload duplicated stuff
[19:36] <nigelbabu> you can copy pages and copy to the new page :)
[19:36] <nigelbabu> More Action > Copy Page
[19:36] <IdleOne> nigelbabu: the thing is to have the images referenced but the text in the banner needs to be translated
[19:36] <Dolasilla> uh? I copied the content of the page, with the reference to images, but they aren't shown..
[19:36] <IdleOne> don't think it can be done
[19:37] <IdleOne> Dolasilla: which page exactly?
[19:37] <nigelbabu> IdleOne, you can save the text elsewhere and then paste into the english one
[19:37] <Dolasilla> ok, thanks a lot for the instructions!
[19:37] <nigelbabu> once you copied the page into the IT version
[19:37] <Dolasilla> IdleOne: http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/It
[19:39] <IdleOne> ok, gimme a minute have to fix something here on the windows machine
[19:41] <Dolasilla> hihihi
[19:44] <IdleOne> ok I see what you mean
[19:44] <IdleOne> ummm if you like I will upload the images for you I already have them saved to this computer
[19:45] <Dolasilla> :) I've translated the top menu in the meanwhile
[19:45] <Dolasilla> well, don't worry, I can do it
[19:45] <IdleOne> I already started :P
[19:46] <Dolasilla> :D thanks a lot!!
[19:46] <IdleOne> done :)
[19:46] <IdleOne> looks pretty now :)
[19:47] <Dolasilla> Thanks a lot! :D
[19:47] <IdleOne> my pleasure Dolasilla
[19:47] <IdleOne> or should I say Prego!
[19:48] <Dolasilla> :D grazie, then! ;)
[20:00] <Dolasilla> dinner-time in Italy, thanks again IdleOne, goodnight everyone! :)
[20:00] <IdleOne> Good night Dolasilla, buona cena
[20:00] <IdleOne> think I spelled that wrong lol
[21:13] <pleia2> IdleOne: fwiw, the mentoring pages probably shouldn't be translated yet, they're not accurate
[21:13] <IdleOne> pleia2: want to remove them ?
[21:13] <pleia2> I'll try to go through the wiki tonight and update http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/WeShouldFix
[21:13] <IdleOne> and just link to the original version for now?
[21:13] <pleia2> maybe
[21:14] <IdleOne> ok I will take it of the ToDo page
[21:14] <pleia2> it's just not worth the effort to translate since they'll be completely overhauled
[21:14] <IdleOne> makes sense
[21:14] <pleia2> which is the ToDo page for Fr?
[21:14] <IdleOne> AFaire
[21:14] <pleia2> ok, thanks
[21:15] <pleia2> I'll make it so WeShouldFix will be an index of pages that are bad/inaccurate/whatever so translators can know (and we can fix them, the original purpose of that page!)
[21:15] <IdleOne> the mentoringFAQ is almost done just need to look it over and make sure it is accurate
[21:16] <pleia2> mentoringfaq is going to be completely rewritten too
[21:16] <pleia2> none of the mentoring stuff is right
[21:16] <IdleOne> well jack spent a lot of time working that one :/
[21:16] <pleia2> it's a maverick blueprint goal
[21:16] <pleia2> sorry :(
[21:16] <IdleOne> no problem. things happen :)
[21:16] <pleia2> that's the trouble with springing this translations project on us! ;)
[21:17] <pleia2> we weren't prepared
[21:17] <pleia2> it's great, but it's not going to go super smooth
[21:17] <IdleOne> yeah, but look at all the cool work I gave you to do now :P
[21:17] <pleia2> hah
[21:17] <IdleOne> never expected it to go smooth
[21:18] <IdleOne> would of been nice though
[21:18]  * pleia2 work &
[21:18] <IdleOne> pleia2: I am going to leave them on the page and put DO NOT TRANSLATE instead of removing
[21:19] <IdleOne> with a short explanation as to why
[21:19] <IdleOne> this way the people who have worked on the page won't be like WT...
[21:20] <IdleOne> if they are just gone
[21:20] <akgraner> pleia2, I'll work on a spreadsheet/checklist so we can see what has been done and what still needs to be done
[21:20] <akgraner> gotta get a good view of things
[21:20] <akgraner> if that hasn't been done yet
[21:21] <akgraner> then I'll share so those who are working on the translations can add commentary about progress and stuff
[21:22] <IdleOne> ok updated AFaire
[21:22] <pleia2> akgraner: can you work on http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/WeShouldFix rather than a spreadsheet?
[21:23] <IdleOne> would be great if we could have one page for all the translations that need to be done (for all the languages)
[21:23] <IdleOne> this way we would all have one central place to keep up to date and easier for the team to keep track of, instead of 20 different todo pages
[21:24] <IdleOne> a suggestion
[21:24] <IdleOne> :)
[21:24] <pleia2> or maybe a spreadsheet for *everything* but put your "need to be fixed" stuff up on http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/WeShouldFix so everyone can see it :)
[21:24] <akgraner> hehe yeah
[21:24]  * pleia2 just added the mentoring pages to WeShouldFix
[21:24] <akgraner> yep  - I was going to add it to the wiki
[21:25] <pleia2> I was planning on working on this some tonight too, do you want to handle it instead?
[21:25] <akgraner> but just quickly get a spreadsheet up then add a table on the wiki ie pages in english on the left  - languages across the top
[21:25] <akgraner> then checks for whats done
[21:26] <akgraner> or block out what to hold off on
[21:26] <akgraner> that's kinda what I was thinking
[21:26] <akgraner> give me about an hour I'll get something up so you all can see
[21:26] <pleia2> ok :)
[21:27] <akgraner> might be hard to picture
[21:27]  * IdleOne sits on the edge of his chair
[21:27] <IdleOne> 59 minutes 26 seconds left
[21:27] <IdleOne> :)
[21:28] <pleia2> lol
[21:28] <IdleOne> hmm maverick
[21:28] <IdleOne> not so crazy about that
[21:28] <IdleOne> least not for a lts
[21:29] <pleia2> it's not for an lts
[21:29] <IdleOne> ohhh that's right
[21:29] <pleia2> lucid lynx is the lts :)
[21:29] <IdleOne> lol
[21:29] <Pendulum> I hate to say it, but every time I hear "Maverick" I think of John McCain :-/
[21:29] <IdleOne> well then it ROCKS!
[21:29] <IdleOne> Pendulum: I think of TopGun
[21:29] <IdleOne> wait McCain was a pilot
[21:29] <Pendulum> (not because I think he is one, but because he used the word so much and I think it was his Secret Service code name or something)
[21:31]  * pleia2 likes meerkats a lot, isn't bothered by the qualifier
[21:32] <Pendulum> I do like the meerkat
[21:36] <issyl0> pleia2: sure
[21:36] <pleia2> thanks :)
[21:36] <pleia2> a lot of the translations folks don't use IRC so may depend on logs to keep up, so it's especially important to keep it in the logged channel
[21:38] <issyl0> OK :)
[21:43] <IdleOne> ok http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/Fr/Contacter is done
[21:53] <issyl0> IdleOne: I just fixed some minor errors (probably typos) on the main wiki page.
[21:53] <issyl0> Hmm, gonna start on one other page now.
[21:54] <IdleOne> issyl0: yup got it in my inbox
[21:55] <issyl0> IdleOne: ah, nice.
[21:55] <IdleOne> issyl0: I am subscribed to all the Fr pages
[21:56] <issyl0> Poor you :P
[21:56] <IdleOne> figured out my evolution filters so it all gets sorted nicely
[21:56] <IdleOne> :)
[21:57] <issyl0> Ah, that's alright then.
[22:02] <IdleOne> haha funny you are translating the mispelling of english word on the French pages :)
[22:02] <issyl0> :)
[22:03] <issyl0> They just got confused, that's all :)
[22:05] <IdleOne> yeah was me
[22:05] <IdleOne> :P
[22:10] <issyl0> Oh well, that kinda thing happens :)
[22:11] <IdleOne> issyl0: remeber to add your name to the AFaire page if you decide to take on a page :)
[22:11] <IdleOne> remember*
[22:11] <issyl0> IdleOne: yep!
[22:11] <IdleOne> :) btw you rock for helping out!
[22:11] <IdleOne> I'll be back
[22:15] <issyl0> Thanks!
[22:16] <issyl0> I'll try and do some more tonight, fixing any minor errors I see and then next week or tomorrow morning (that's dedication isn't it?!) or Sunday morning I'll start translating more pages.
[22:16] <issyl0> Good work so far!
[22:27] <akgraner> wow there are *a lot* of pages - this will take a few more mins but I am working on it :-)
[23:32] <akgraner> dang this is tedious - but you can get the idea of what I am taking about here  - http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/PagesNeedingTranslated
[23:32] <akgraner> pleia2, I'll move it but that is the idea and we can just add colors and links the the ones that are complete
[23:35] <akgraner> IdleOne, I'll let you know when I have it filled out a little more with the ones that are complete added so you can see what I am talking about a little easier