[00:48] <MDC1> vish, i'm off to bed.. talk to you tomorrow ;)
[08:28] <mdc_laptop> vish, awake?
[08:33] <vish> mdc_laptop: hey , looks like you are back to fixing bugs again ;)
[08:35] <mdc_laptop> vish, yepp :)
[08:37] <vish> mdc_laptop: awesome .. there are probably still a few nautilus bugs for which you have submitted patches, but havent been fixed or committed upstream?
[08:37] <mdc_laptop> vish, yeah, i'll hunt alex to commit them :)
[08:39] <mdc_laptop> vish, about https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bug/503330 - is it "approved" by some design team?
[08:39] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 503330 in nautilus (Ubuntu) (and 2 other projects) "In the file operation dialog, the file count and the size count change in opposite direction. (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Low,Triaged]
[08:40] <vish> mdc_laptop: yeah , it is milestoned and david blogged about it too
[08:41] <mdc_laptop> vish, ok, great. i'll fix it :) looks like a piece of cake ;)
[08:41] <vish> neat ;)
[08:48] <mdc_laptop> vish, otherwise, what's up?
[08:49] <vish> mdc_laptop: nothing much , this cycle has been less controversial than last time.. ;)  
[08:49] <vish> or maybe i had been busy to notice rants ;p
[08:50] <mdc_laptop> hehe. well, it a lts, it should be less controversial 
[08:50] <mdc_laptop> but the move of the min, max, close buttons to the left is a suprise
[08:53] <vish> yeah , but it is alteast theme-able now ;) than being forced for everyone :)
[08:53] <vish> light-theme specific even
[08:55] <mdc_laptop> oh. but i'm using the dark theme now, and they're to the left...?
[08:55]  * wgrant points at indicator tooltips and the lack of an NM indicator.
[08:56] <mdc_laptop> wgrant, indicator is the new name for notification area icons?
[08:56] <wgrant> mdc_laptop: Indicators are the replacement for the notification area icons, yes.
[08:57] <hyperair> the feature-lacking replacement
[08:57] <mdc_laptop> "menu" based if i remember correctly
[08:57] <hyperair> right
[08:57] <hyperair> except that menu buttons have text, and these don't
[08:57] <wgrant> hyperair: I think they're largely much better.
[08:57] <mdc_laptop> hyperair, what's missing? 
[08:57] <wgrant> But with some notable omissions.
[08:57] <hyperair> mdc_laptop: tooltips.
[08:57] <hyperair> mdc_laptop: they use icons, but they don't have tooltips.
[08:58] <hyperair> mdc_laptop: also you can't click-to-open apps any more, but that's not as important as missing tooltips i'd think
[08:58] <wgrant> I've been tempted to patch in basic textual tooltip support, and maintain a PPA with it.
[08:58] <mdc_laptop> hyperair, i could agree on the tooltip, bit wasn't it mark s that didn't want them?
[08:58] <hyperair> wgrant: that'd be really awesome!
[08:58]  * vish starts banging for tooltips ;p
[08:58] <hyperair> mdc_laptop: that's his opinion. i'm entitled to my own.
[08:58] <mdc_laptop> click-to-open apps?
[08:59] <wgrant> I got it working in half an hour or so for normal indicators, but I haven't worked out how to integrate it with the application indicator framework yet.
[08:59] <hyperair> mdc_laptop: click pidgin's icon to open... 
[08:59] <hyperair> mdc_laptop: that doesn't work. you have to click to open the menu, and click open pidgin or other
[08:59] <hyperair> i think
[08:59] <hyperair> wgrant++
[08:59] <mdc_laptop> hyperair, i use a extra pidgin icon
[09:00] <hyperair> mdc_laptop: extra pidgin icon?
[09:00] <mdc_laptop> not just the me "menu"
[09:00] <mdc_laptop> the native :)
[09:00] <vish> mdc_laptop: actually , the "less controversial" i mentioned was for papercuts project alone, last cycle there were a lot of annoyed people , this time most changes are acceptable to all..   but we do seem to have controversies in Ubuntu ;)
[09:00] <hyperair> mdc_laptop: well the use case isn't limited to pidgin. there's banshee, and every other thing that sat in the notification area in karmic
[09:00] <hyperair> mdc_laptop: i personally use ctrl+shift+g (bound in compiz) to launch pidgin's window via dbus
[09:01] <mdc_laptop> ahh.. because of the menu stuff.. i understand
[09:01] <mdc_laptop> (i'm using docky - it's the shit ;) )
[09:01] <hyperair> vish: imo notify-osd was less controversial than this.
[09:01]  * wgrant moved to Docky a week ago.
[09:02] <hyperair> wgrant: i've been using docky for ages, but i dont' think indicator should sit in a dock
[09:02] <wgrant> No, probably not.
[09:02] <mdc_laptop> wgrant, no they shouldn't
[09:02] <wgrant> I have a normal top panel.
[09:02] <hyperair> yeah, same here.
[09:02] <hyperair> which is why i'm indicators annoy me so much
[09:02] <mdc_laptop> yep, but it's getting a lot of waste of space with that panel
[09:03] <hyperair> s/i'm//
[09:03] <hyperair> indicator applets don't help that much, they increase the width of each icon
[09:03] <hyperair> i mean application indicators
[09:04] <mdc_laptop> the only things i have in the top panel is the sysmenu (apps, places, sys) and then the indicators - no launchers and stuff
[09:04] <hyperair> and the move from notification area to application indicators necessarily means that bug #403135 won't get much attention
[09:04] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 403135 in vlc (Ubuntu) (and 17 other projects) "Notification area icon wrongly rendered/uses bg_color as a background (multiple apps) (affects: 164) (dups: 17) (heat: 920)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/403135
[09:04] <hyperair> from the people who actually know gnome-panel well enough to fix it, i mean
[09:05] <mdc_laptop> vish, let's get crazy till 10.10 :)
[09:06] <vish> hyperair: the width in the applet is due to the default theme , we can set the width to something lesser too
[09:06] <vish> iirc it has padding of 3px on either side for each icon
[09:07] <vish> oh ,wait , its 2px
[09:07] <hyperair> vish: really? i thought it was a purposefully done thing.
[09:07] <hyperair> vish: which part of the theme customizes it?
[09:07]  * hyperair should really learn gtkrc-fu sometime
[09:07] <vish> hyperair: it was done on purpose , but you can adjust the padding too , still it will be a bit bigger the NA icons
[09:08] <hyperair> cool
[09:08] <hyperair> vish: by the way, where can i get tarballs of karmic/lucid's theme
[09:08] <vish> hyperair: in the gtkrc there is           widget "*IdoEntryMenuItem*" style "wide"
[09:08] <hyperair> ?
[09:08] <hyperair> aha i see
[09:09] <vish> instead of wide , set your own style  , probably to    style "zero" and add a new option with xthickness =0
[09:10] <mdc_laptop> why wasn't nm-applet made as an indicator - not enough time or impossible?
[09:10] <hyperair> probably impossible.
[09:10] <hyperair> nm-applet abuses the menu big time
[09:10] <vish> mdc_laptop: not simple enough , but is planned for 10.10
[09:11] <mdc_laptop> hyperair, it looks like a regular menu.. 
[09:11] <hyperair> application indicator screwed around with so many features that not everythign can be ported properly
[09:11] <vish> hyperair: tarballs? why?
[09:11] <hyperair> vish: because i'm on karmic.
[09:11] <mdc_laptop> vish, good to hear that
[09:11] <hyperair> vish: i'd like to just drop it into my appearances applet
[09:11] <hyperair> capplet*
[09:11] <vish> hyperair: hmm , there is a ppa somewhere 
[09:11] <hyperair> mdc_laptop: but it isn't
[09:12] <hyperair> vish: heh one more PPA for my system >_>
[09:12] <vish> hyperair: if you have so many already , 1 more wouldnt hurt ;p
[09:12]  * hyperair coughs
[09:12] <wgrant> hyperair: Isn't it lovely that they're doing it in an LTS, too?
[09:13] <mdc_laptop> how's the non ubuntu community taking the move to indicators instead of notifications icons? 
[09:13] <wgrant> So people are stuck with it (particularly the lovely NM inconsistency) for two years.
[09:13] <hyperair> wgrant: EXACTLY.
[09:13] <hyperair> wgrant: i like how sabdfl insists that it's an experiment and may not be correct
[09:14] <hyperair> and after that says that LTSes are meant to be kept for long periods of time.
[09:14] <wgrant> Yes.
[09:14] <wgrant> It is stupid.
[09:14] <wgrant> Really stupid.
[09:14] <hyperair> beyond stupid.
[09:14] <wgrant> I appreciate that Ayatana and Canonical DX are making a positive different.
[09:15] <wgrant> But performing an incomplete experiment in an LTS release is *damn stupid*.
[09:15] <hyperair> they
[09:15] <hyperair> yeah
[09:15] <hyperair> exactly
[09:15] <hyperair> vish: http://paste.debian.net/67379/
[09:15] <wgrant> (feel free to replace 'damn' with something more colourful)
[09:16] <mdc_laptop> hyperair, a lot of ppas :)
[09:16] <hyperair> wgrant: it was already done internally somewhere early in the text processing region of my brain
[09:16] <hyperair> mdc_laptop: ;-)
[09:16] <vish> wgrant: what is really a pity  , is that they expect us to just agree that they have "magic dust" waiting and fall in line with the change , with no actual reasoning for the change
[09:17] <wgrant> Also, the whole "screw User Interface Freeze -- let's change EVERYTHING afterwards, and then reject suggestions for improvement on the basis that it is post-UIF" thing is pretty annoying.
[09:17] <hyperair> was it really "screw uif"? it was more like "let's wait until *JUST* before UIF to change every damn thing so that nobody can change it back"
[09:18] <wgrant> hyperair: IIRC it was a few hours after UIF that the theme revolution landed.
[09:18] <wgrant> Some other changes have landed since.
[09:18] <hyperair> >_>
[09:18] <hyperair> this is ridiculous
[09:18] <wgrant> A little worse than that.
[09:18] <hyperair> right
[09:20] <wgrant> UIF was 2010/03/04
[09:20] <wgrant> Freezes happen at midnight UTC, at the start of the date.
[09:20] <mdc_laptop> otherwise, it seems like a good release :)
[09:20] <wgrant> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 20:54:24 +0100
[09:20] <wgrant> That's the original upload.
[09:20] <wgrant> So it violated UIF by 20 hours.
[09:21] <wgrant> Had indicators landed earlier, they could have been LTS-appropriate.
[09:21] <mdc_laptop> and it's purple :)
[09:21] <wgrant> There would have been four months to fix them up.
[09:21] <mdc_laptop> wgrant, true
[09:21] <hyperair> another thing that really annoyed me was that when i brought this up with tedg, he just brushed me off with "i'm not interested to continue this discussion any further" until i made enough noise and jono stepped in
[09:22] <wgrant> hyperair: Well, this is Canonical DX...
[09:22] <hyperair> point taken
[09:22] <wgrant> It's not as if they actually talk to the community...
[09:23] <hyperair> meh
[09:25] <mdc_laptop> bbl - breakfast
[09:28] <wgrant> Mark has also Won't Fixed a lot of my bugs lately, commenting that they are still working on that part of the UI.
[09:28] <wgrant> 1) Why are you reworking the UI a month after UI freeze?
[09:28] <wgrant> 2) Why does that mean my complaints will not be fixed?
[09:30] <hyperair> imo it should have just been milestoned further
[09:31] <wgrant> Now Lucid is just going to woefully inconsistent and unpolished :(
[09:31] <wgrant> While most of the improvements are great, they are not polished and some still really suck.
[09:31] <hyperair> all recent enough ubuntu releases are.
[09:31] <hyperair> because of all these stupid last minute changes
[09:35] <wgrant> Yeah, but they're not all LTSes.
[09:35]  * hyperair coughs. was the last LTS any better?
[09:35] <hyperair> what was the last LTS again?
[09:35] <hyperair> hardy, right?
[09:35] <hyperair> no wait
[09:35] <hyperair> was it?
[09:35] <hyperair> yeah it was
[09:35] <wgrant> It wasn't full of DX Magic Pixie Dust of Inconsistency and Freeze Violation®
[09:35] <wgrant> It was Hardy, yes.
[09:35] <hyperair> but it was full of pulseaudio shittiness
[09:36] <wgrant> The only widely proclaimed travesty was PA.
[09:36] <hyperair> pulseaudio rocked really awesomely in intrepid
[09:36] <wgrant> And that was OK in most cases.
[09:36] <hyperair> hardy's pulseaudio was ridiculous
[09:36] <hyperair> it was non-standard
[09:36] <hyperair> and a lot of hacks were needed to be placed by the user to fix things
[09:36] <wgrant> Some stuff ended up fixed, though.
[09:36] <wgrant> For this -- it's unlikely.
[09:36]  * hyperair sighs
[09:36] <hyperair> this means we're in steady decline.
[09:36] <hyperair> congratulations, ayatana.
[09:36] <hyperair> congratulations, mark.
[09:37] <wgrant> I don't think we're in steady decline.
[09:37] <hyperair> exponential decline then.
[09:37] <wgrant> DX just needs to be beaten until they respect freezes and land changes early.
[09:37] <wgrant> And talk in public.
[09:37] <wgrant> We will be less furious and ranty if they are willing to discuss things, I think.
[09:37] <hyperair> o rly?
[09:38] <hyperair> i can already imagine what will happen.
[09:38] <hyperair> first a discussion happens.
[09:38] <hyperair> a proposal
[09:38] <hyperair> someone from the community rejects the idea.
[09:38] <hyperair> gets ignored
[09:38] <hyperair> another person backs up first person
[09:38] <hyperair> also gets ignored
[09:38] <hyperair> repeat until a flame war bursts out
[09:38] <hyperair> and then...
[09:38] <wgrant> True.
[09:38] <hyperair> "We are not interested in continuing further discussion."
[09:38] <hyperair> and then the change lands anyway
[09:38] <wgrant> But this way they get a lot of utter hate directed at DX.
[09:39] <hyperair> wasn't it UX making the decisions, though?
[09:39] <hyperair> DX are just following orders, right?
[09:39] <wgrant> I don't know.
[09:39] <wgrant> It's all opaque.
[09:39] <hyperair> blargh. annoying.
[09:40] <wgrant> DX appears to be the closest team to the Ubuntu development community.
[09:40] <wgrant> But I really don't know.
[09:41] <hyperair> i think it works this way: UX makes decisions up in the clouds where nobody knows what's going on, tells it to DX team, and DX team implements. and when they implement, they have to be close to the development community
[09:42] <wgrant> I think there's a Mark up there somewhere.
[09:42] <hyperair> right at the top
[09:42] <wgrant> And I wouldn't say that DX was close to the greater Ubuntu development community.
[09:42] <hyperair> core-devs then?
[09:42] <wgrant> Not that either.
[09:43] <wgrant> They are closer than the rest of the teams. But they are not close.
[09:43] <hyperair> rest of the teams?
[09:43] <wgrant> UX and whatever else lurks in the depths of Canonical.
[09:43] <hyperair> hmm
[09:47] <wgrant> Again, I like most of what they're doing. I just don't like the way they're doing it, and the brokenness and lack of polish that it brings.
[09:48] <hyperair> i liked notify-osd, papercuts, and the concept of application indicators. i was fully supportive of the idea until i found out tooltips vanished.
[09:48] <hyperair> as well as other-button interaction with the icons
[09:48] <hyperair> stuff like scroll for changing tracks in banshee
[09:48] <hyperair> middle click for play/pause
[09:49] <wgrant> They have relented and granted indicator-sound its scrolling superpowers.
[09:49] <wgrant> I think that's about the only thing they've relented on, except for those changes that conflicted with string freeze and made translators furious.
[09:50] <hyperair> that's only indicator-sound
[09:51] <hyperair> i'd like my app-ind scrolling superpowers
[09:51] <hyperair> and textual tooltips, if not those ultra-bombastic tooltips banshee and rhythmbox have in karmic
[09:52] <wgrant> Text tooltips are easy.
[09:52] <wgrant> I'll try to work out how app indicators work tonight.
[09:52] <hyperair> cool =p
[09:52] <wgrant> I suppose I just have to expose my existing methods over dbus somehow.
[09:52] <hyperair> ping me when you're done. i'll help port things which require tooltips over
[09:53] <vish> to add to the tooltips issue , the indicators wont even be displayed [they go out of the screen] when you use a vertical panel :/
[09:53] <wgrant> vish: I gave up on using a vertical panel a couple of years ago.
[09:53] <hyperair> wgrant: http://twitter.com/ubuntudesigners/status/9351006658 <-- this says that dx team implements ux-team's designs
[09:53]  * wgrant waits for it to be censored.
[09:54] <hyperair> wgrant: censored?
[09:54] <hyperair> vish: more appind failure.. i wonder how the vertical panel people will take it =\
[09:54] <wgrant> hyperair: Well, they seem to like to keep everything secret.
[09:54] <vish> i have a widescreen to a vertical is the only sensible panel :/  > btw , Bug #498182 
[09:54] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 498182 in indicator-session (Ubuntu) (and 2 other projects) "Indicator-application does not support vertical panels (affects: 8) (heat: 48)" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/498182
[09:55] <hyperair> vish: i've a widescreen too, but my neck aches if i rotate my head to read what's on the panel
[09:55] <vish> hyperair: icon stay straight ;p
[09:55] <vish> they dont rotate 
[09:55]  * hyperair highlights, bolds, and underlines "read"
[09:55] <hyperair> i mean text.
[09:56] <hyperair> stuff like my clock
[09:56] <hyperair> netspeed applet
[09:56] <vish> hyperair: well , we are talking about indicators , and the netspeeds are displayed correct , maybe clock
[09:57] <vish> hyperair: almost all the applets work for vertical panels other than , the main menu and clock , which get tilted
[09:57] <hyperair> vish: right, and i use that most =p
[09:57] <hyperair> vish: and text that isn't rotated is hard to read
[09:57] <hyperair> i mean you'd have to make your panel bigger
[09:57] <hyperair> which means less screen space (i like my screen's width too!)
[09:58] <hyperair> it's perfect for tiling source files
[09:58] <vish> hyperair: not really a problem to me, i have it on the right , i think i got pretty well adjusted ;)
[09:58] <hyperair> heh good for you =p
[10:12] <hyperair> vish: do you know what a package providing application indicator support should depend on?
[10:13] <hyperair> vish: (this is an extension providing application indicator support for banshee)
[10:13] <vish> hyperair: nope.. but it might be in the wiki
[10:13] <hyperair> vish: which wiki page?
[10:14] <vish> hyperair: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/ApplicationIndicators  from the topic
[10:14] <hyperair> hmm that one..
[10:14] <hyperair> it's not there
[10:26] <wgrant> Mmmmm. Damn ABIs.
[17:04] <mdc_laptop> vish?
[17:05] <mdc_laptop> vish, http://mejlamej.nu/fop.png
[17:19] <vish> mdc_laptop: hey , nice work.. you need to add the word "File" , so that it reads "Copying File 97 of yy... "  else it would mean copying 97files of yy
[17:20] <vish> btw , what happened to the time remaining?
[17:22] <mdc_laptop> http://mejlamej.nu/fop.ogv
[17:22] <mdc_laptop> vish ^
[17:22] <mdc_laptop> i'll add file :)
[17:24] <vish> neat.. :)
[17:24] <mdc_laptop> vish, so "Copying 1 of 180 files (...)" -> "Copying file 1 of 180 (...)" ??
[17:24] <vish> yup
[17:25] <mdc_laptop> Copying can also be Duplicating and Moving
[17:28] <vish> mdc_laptop: should be fine for those too.. but they are always files , right?.. we wont have problem of them being folders ? if so keep the f capital "File" 
[17:28] <vish> mdc_laptop: btw , for the bugs which havent moved upstream , submit the debdiffs in lp too .. 
[17:28] <vish> and subscribe the Ubuntu sponsors to the bugs
[17:29] <vish> Main sponsors , usually the bugs are for those in Main 
[17:31] <mdc_laptop> vish, i'll push alex to have him "move" them :)
[17:31] <mdc_laptop> he'll be working less on nautilus for some time and work on spice, but hopefully he'll have time to review patches and do some commits :)
[17:32] <vish> mdc_laptop: that would be better , if not ^ last option ;)
[17:32] <mdc_laptop> :)
[17:38] <mdc_laptop> vish, http://mejlamej.nu/fop2.png
[17:38] <mdc_laptop> vish, i'm not super happy with the sentence.. 
[17:39] <vish> mdc_laptop: what happened to the 181 "files" ?  does it get cut?
[17:39] <mdc_laptop> doh
[17:39] <mdc_laptop> should i have kept that one? ;)
[17:39] <vish> yup ;)
[17:39] <mdc_laptop> ahh.. crap
[17:40] <vish> mdc_laptop: btw , why unhappy?
[17:43] <mdc_laptop> vish, i removed ngettext to _
[17:44] <mdc_laptop> s/remvoed/changed/
[17:44] <mdc_laptop> but no problem - probably fixed now.. screenshot in a sec
[17:44] <vish> we have to get a UIF for that one :(
[17:46] <mdc_laptop> http://mejlamej.nu/fop3.png
[17:46] <mdc_laptop> vish ^
[17:46] <vish> heh , but if its done upstream no problem for us ;p
[17:46] <mdc_laptop> it's probably to late for lucid
[17:46] <mdc_laptop> too
[17:47] <vish> mdc_laptop: perfect! :)
[17:47] <mdc_laptop> :)
[17:47] <mdc_laptop> I'll post the patch upstream
[17:50] <vish> mdc_laptop: when will you be getting in touch with alex?  if it doesnt happen within a few days , post patches in lp
[17:53] <mdc_laptop> vish, if i remember i'll ping him on tuesday
[17:53] <mdc_laptop> still, it's too late for lucid because of translations..
=== ubuntu is now known as danyR