[01:59] have you seen this: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/04/now-that-looks-familiar-buttons-switch.html ? new screenshots now =\ [02:17] Someone already wrote a script to fix any screenshots. :) [02:20] I think this order is good, no button will ever move. Like, I don't think any window has only close and maximize buttons. [03:08] donri: I hope it will work with RTL languages too [03:09] Is RTL any different WRT buttons? [03:09] donri: indeed, we have the buttons in the right now [03:10] You used to have them on the left? [03:14] donri: right [03:15] Interesting. :) [03:15] donri: we also have the menus in the right. [03:15] donri: yea, complicated language. we're the most buggy language [03:16] Heh. [03:16] What language would that be? [03:16] Hebrew [03:16] Ah. [03:17] Arabic suppose to have the same bugs, but they almost don't translate, so I guess it's less buggy on English :P [03:18] well, ill be back later, cya :D [03:18] Bye. [03:48] anyone know if Luke is going to build a new quickshot CD image anytime soon? [03:49] I think he's working on it. [03:49] Trying to make enough space to get all the language packs on it. [03:49] yeah he emailed me aboug that [03:49] we're switching it to a DVD [03:49] he's run out of packages to remove [03:49] humphreybc: we need to branch the manual so I can start jamming on formatting the English manual. [03:50] yeah... thought that was meant to happen while I was away? [03:50] (so i don't have to do it!) [03:50] as an aside, "about a bug" = "aboug" [03:50] sweet. that'll simplify things. [03:50] i have no idea how to branch things [03:51] me neither. [03:51] i'll need to get someone else to help us [03:51] like thumper [03:51] :P [03:52] surely dutchie can work it out [03:52] he seems to be good at all these miscellaneous things [03:56] I'd try it, but I fear somehow screwing up the translations. [04:03] yeah [04:13] humphreybc: what is your question? [04:13] hey tim [04:14] we need to branch some stuff. godbyk will be able to explain it better [04:14] Hey, thumper. [04:14] we need to branch the manual a bit. [04:15] I need one branch that's stable for the translators to continue working against. They've been working against main, but we need to move that work to a new branch. [04:15] I need a second branch that I can use to tidy up the formatting of the first edition of the English manual. [04:16] Finally, we'll want the main branch to be available for everyone to continue working on for a second edition. [04:16] and the formatting for the first edition you want different from the one the translators use [04:16] ? [04:17] thumper: this is outlined a bit better here: https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/msg01231.html [04:17] thumper: yeah. [04:18] basically, I'm going to be tweaking the english edition, but I don't want my string changes to affect the translations. [04:19] yeah so we need to duplicate what we have now by three... right? [04:19] one of them will be the 1st edition in english [04:19] one of them will be the second edition, in english [04:19] and the last one will be the one for the translators to work off.. [04:19] is that rihgt? [04:19] right* [04:19] humphreybc: yep, pretty much. [04:21] ok, what I'm going to suggest may or may not screw up the translations... [04:21] not sure [04:21] you want to create two more series [04:21] although which two is the big question [04:22] right. [04:22] I'd love to have one of the new series be for the translators, but I don't know how to safely (and transparently) migrate them to the new series. [04:22] to avoid as much messing around with translations as possible, I suggest making "lucid-english" and "mavrick-english" [04:22] then make the development focus mavrick-english [04:22] that way the current main branch/trunk could be used for 2nd edition and 10.10 work. [04:22] that way trunk becomes mavrick [04:23] and the translations don't get touched [04:23] okay [04:23] that sounds safest. [04:23] * thumper reboots server, so will disappear for a bit [04:23] can we set it so that "bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual" pull the maverick-english branch (or whichever branch we prefer at the time)? [04:24] godbyk: I have a feeling that bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual will pull whatever is development focus [04:24] humphreybc: as long as we can set that, I'm okay with it. [04:24] yeah [04:25] we'll need to update our instructions to authors/editors/translators/etc., to reflect these changes. [04:38] godbyk: yes, by making mavrick-english the development series for the project lp:ubuntu-manual will get that one [04:38] thumper: cool. that'll work then. [05:22] thumper: is the branching something that you can do quickly? or can you point me to the docs so I can figure it out? (specifically, how not to disrupt the current translations.) thanks! [05:51] godbyk: just push to two new branches [05:51] godbyk: those will be your new series branches [05:52] thumper: Okay. Do I have to do anything for the translations? [05:52] godbyk: you shouldn't have to do anything [05:54] 'kay. [06:59] so i've noticed screenshots are making fairly good progress [06:59] but translations not so much? [07:00] humphreybc: I haven't been tracking the translations progress too closely. [07:01] are they busy translating software strings instead of our docs? [07:01] or is there no interest in undertaking the translation of a huge book? [07:01] not sure [07:02] i think it's just something that's going to take ages [07:02] I tried to do some translating but it starts out by throwing loads of technical and latex-heavy glossary definitions at you. [07:03] donri: that's true. unfortunately, those have to be created before the document compiles. (it'll fail if you reference a glossary entry that doesn't exist yet.) [07:03] Heh. [07:03] donri: Can you think of ways we could make it easier for translators? [07:03] I did like, six glossary entries, had to fix some up to three times because I did it wrong, then my mind was all ADHD-fuzzy. [07:04] lol [07:04] Well, better instructions regarding LaTeX could help. [07:04] (We try to make it easy for everyone to help out, from pointing out bugs, to writing content, to translating.) [07:04] https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual [07:04] we could probably make it clearer about latex for the translators [07:04] maybe we should invest some time into po4a in the future [07:04] problem is it's bloody hard to get in touch with all the translators [07:05] donri: Have you see the latex-handout.pdf file? [07:05] Nope. [07:06] let me toss it up on the website and give you a link. one sec. [07:06] godbyk, have you mailed that to the list? [07:07] humphreybc: I think I have a few times. [07:07] okay [07:07] donri: http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/style-guide.pdf [07:07] it's so hard to get ahold of the translators [07:07] donri: Chapter 4 should be helpful with translating the LaTeX stuff. [07:07] Chapter 3 will tell you what the commands mean. [07:08] humphreybc: Perhaps we should compose an 'everything you need to know to get started translating the manual' email or something. [07:08] right [07:09] but how many translators actually subscribe to the list? [07:09] no clue [07:10] i don't think it's that many [07:10] which makes it very hard to talk to them [07:10] perhaps something that needs to be worked on in launchpad [07:10] maybe we need some popup that displays before they start translating [07:11] Can we add any text to the top of this page? https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual [07:12] I think you can do that. I got a notice from the "Ubuntu Swedish translation team" or something like that. [07:12] "Before translating, be sure to go through Ubuntu Swedish Translators guidelines." on the top. [07:15] no we can't [07:15] it's something to talk about with the launchpad developers [07:16] yeah, tell them we want per-project (or per-branch) translation instructions. [07:16] thumper, you hear that? ;) [07:19] donri: Does that style-guide.pdf file look like it addresses the questions you had about LaTeX and translations? If not, please let me know. It's definitely a work-in-progress. [07:20] I didn't really have questions; I was later told I was doing it wrong. That PDF does show that, in deed. :) [07:20] Specifically, I was translating the \newglossaryitem{this}. [07:20] Ah, yeah. [07:21] When you just drop in to Launchpad, and don't really know LaTeX, it's easy to guess what to translate, but also easy to guess wrong, apparently. [07:21] The 'this' is used as a label and LaTeX needs it to be stupidly simple. Plain ASCII chars, almost no punctuation, etc. [07:21] Yea, I understand. :) [07:21] I think one of them has a space in it in the English version, but that really shouldn't be there either, I don't think. [07:21] It's saner probably, anyway, because you avoid confusion of translating the ID and using different translations throughout. [07:22] When I first dropped it into launchpad, the translators were translating the \menu and \then commands, which LaTeX *really* got irked about. :) [07:22] Heh. [07:24] I could only suggest translations, I hope the person to accept them gets which ones to use. [07:24] E.g. either they use the newest or they see which is right. [07:24] I can't remove suggestions. :( [07:26] I'm not sure how to handle editing and bugs/errors in the translations, either. [07:26] :S [07:26] could be quite hectic [07:26] I pretty much just have to assume that whatever translations are provided are, in fact, correct. [07:27] humphreybc: Apparently I have to be the project's owner or driver to create a new series. [07:27] oh really [07:27] so i have to do that [07:27] what do i need to name it? [07:28] Well, let's see.. [07:28] Name, summary, branch and release URL patter [07:28] pattern, even [07:28] we'll need a 10.04-e1 and a 10.04-e2 (or lucid instead of 10.04 if you like) [07:29] and main will end up as 10.10 at some point. [07:31] humphreybc: oh! now I see the "Register a series" link. [07:31] I wasn't looking far enough down the page. [07:33] lol [07:33] so you can do it? [07:34] seems so. [07:35] do you think we should use 10.04 or lucid? [07:35] use lucid [07:35] * donri thinks the names are cute but the numbers more clear. [07:35] development names are way better [07:38] currently some of the sentences at http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/ are not translatable at launchpad. kevin has done some updates but those are mostly removing some obsolete sentences [07:38] and btw, is there some sort of deadline for translations? [07:39] artnay: yeah, the RC release on the 21st is a rough deadline [07:39] 'kay. I'll be a few minutes while I set these series and branches up. [07:39] humphreybc: umh, so there's no possibility to continue translation after lucid has been released? [07:39] artnay: I haven't been updating the test.ubuntu-manual.org translations lately. I'll try to do that in a bit. [07:39] artnay: by all means continue translating. :) [07:40] we'll be releasing the translated manuals as they're finished. [07:40] artnay: oh yes, definitely [07:40] if you'd like your translation to be released at the same time as the English manual, that's the deadline to aim for, though. [07:40] yup [07:40] (you'll catch the most fanfare that way.) [07:41] Translations probably will catch up better by 10.10, as I guess that manual will greatly be based on the current? [07:41] I mentioned this project at our LoCo meeting two days ago. some people were quite interested in helping with the translation -- but we're not sure if we're able to translate it all before the release [07:41] Launchpad can't currently suggest much. Whole sentences don't exist anywhere else this way. [07:41] donri: more or less but there are a lot of cool things going to be happening for 10.10 [07:42] Sure, but still. [07:42] donri: some come from ubuntu-docs but basically it has to be done from scratch [07:48] What happened to website translations? [07:49] humphreybc: okay, I've created a couple new series. [07:49] donri: some were removed obviously [07:49] Now I guess people need to bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual/lucid-2e to start working on the second edition or something. [07:50] But there's no language selection anymore? [07:50] Which would be good, if it would autodetect language instead. But only English. [07:51] donri: I think it should autodetect. [07:51] Does it not? [07:51] Not for me. [07:54] I'll take a look at it sometime. [07:54] (too many things on my plate right this sec.) [07:59] Sure. [08:32] i've got to head off [08:32] see ya'll later [08:35] I can confirm that, http://ubuntu-manual.org/ doesn't autodetect browser language (or does not comply) so the page is displayed in English [08:35] artnay: I think the ubuntu-manual.org doesn't auto-detect. I think you have to manually select there. [08:36] artnay: but I thought that test.ubuntu-manual.org was supposed to autodetect. I may be wrong, though. [08:36] godbyk: but there's no selection. test site has but the language is in English (if it bothers) [08:37] I mean the languages are in English... they could be translated just like what has been done with the live CD's language selection [08:38] godbyk, test site seems to autodetect properly. [08:39] morning all [08:39] cool. [08:39] hey, ubuntujenkins [08:58] I'm chatting with the launchpad translator guys. Trying to figure out how to make translating our manual easier. [09:00] nice sounds like a good idea [09:01] sadly, they've basically said, 'it doesn't do that. but the source is GPL, hint, hint.' [09:01] how do you feel about working on another side project, ubuntujenkins? :) [09:02] what are we trying to achive? [09:02] I will give anything a go. what language is it in? [09:05] * ubuntujenkins only knows python vaguely but is willing to learn [09:05] I'm not sure what Launchpad is written in. [09:08] wow getting it means setting up the launchpad site on your computer [09:08] lovely. [09:09] One of the complaints I've had from translators is that whenever we fix a typo, they have to retranslate the entire paragraph. [09:09] So I was chatting with the launchpad translation devs about how to improve that. [09:10] which channel is this logged in? It could be some interestingly hard work. [09:10] It was in #launchpad. [09:11] started just over an hour ago. [09:11] ok i will have a look [09:16] Hey, meho_r. I incorporated most of your suggestions into this first edition of the manual. If you'd like to continue your edits, I'll look at them for the second edition. [09:17] Hi, godbyk. So, fist ed. is frozen, no more changes? [09:18] meho_r: correct. it's frozen so the translators can start doing their thing. [09:18] we're going to continue editing for the second edition. [09:18] when is the 2nd ed. due? [09:18] we'll be adding some content that we didn't have time to finish writing as well. [09:18] no deadlines for the second edition yet. [09:19] presumably before 10.10 is released. ;-) [09:19] Hehe, OK [09:19] that's a lot of time then [09:19] so it's not a huge rush for the second edition yet. I just wanted to let you know if you were bored and wanted to edit some more to feel free. [09:20] Not actually bored, I hardly find time for absolutely anything beside job+study [09:20] but I will find some for manual ;) [09:22] how large the branch is? Should it be more useful to do edit directly or this way, in .pdf? [09:24] The current branch is about 160 MB to download. [09:24] Most of that is the website, translations, images, and other files that you don't *really* need. [09:25] we could do with giving the website its own branch [09:26] ubuntujenkins: I agree. [09:26] In fact, I'll see if I can set that up. [09:26] Actually, I'll do that one tomorrow. :) [09:27] we should warn daker first [09:27] yeah. [09:27] and I'll need to be awake enough to change things around on the web server, too. [09:28] is it launchpad that works out the diffs between the two potfiles? [09:29] ubuntujenkins: launchpad doesn't do that at all. that's the bit I'm interested in exploring. [09:29] launchpad only looks at the current pot file. [09:29] it doesn't do any comparison at all. [09:30] I think its the comparison that we need to look at [09:30] ubuntujenkins: agreed. [09:30] how is the pot generated? [09:31] ubuntujenkins: The pot is generated (in our case) using po4a. [09:31] right po4a it is [09:31] * ubuntujenkins goes to look for the source [09:31] Prepare yourself: it's perl. [09:32] godbyk, I think I'll continue to work on .pdf for now ;) Any particular version or the one from ubuntu-manual.org will do? [09:33] nice another language to learn [09:33] meho_r: you can grab the one from the website for now. it should be ubuntu-manual-beta.pdf. [09:34] godbyk, OK, will do. BTW, what about style guide? Is it finished? [09:34] meho_r: it's not finished, but what I've got so far is at http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/style-guide.pdf [09:34] I'll continue to work on it and upload revisions to that same url. so you may wish to check back periodically. [09:35] meho_r: if you have suggestions for the style guide, feel free to let me know, too. [09:35] Great, thanks. [09:35] it's currently a slightly modified handout I wrote about using LaTeX in our project. [09:35] so it's pretty heavy on the latex side and light on the style side right now. [09:35] :) [09:41] godbyk: I will look into it when i have more time, I am going to test the live cd and try and do some revision today. [09:41] be back in a nit [09:41] *bit [09:46] Okay, everyone. I'm off to bed. See you later! [10:08] Red_HamsterX: ping [10:11] godbyk: I hope your internet stays up for the next 4 hours, as i have started the upload. [10:12] It's a server in california, not my home internet [10:12] are thats ok then [10:12] Though it was offline a bit earlier for some reason. [10:12] Why is the upload so slow anyway? [10:13] I am at home and because of where i live the internet is slow. I did expect it to be allot quicker than it is. If i was at uni it would be a lot better [10:16] wow i have just speed tested my internet and it has got a whole lot slower since last time. [10:38] good muorning everyone! i'm portuguese (portugal) Ubuntu Manual translataor and i've checked out the builds page and today's build failed [10:39] I've checked the log and the error seems to be in a specific string, but all seems to be correctly translation. help? [10:43] correctly translated* [10:57] danyR: just going to have a look and see if i can fix it [11:03] ubuntujenkins: thanks :) === ubuntu is now known as danyR [11:11] danyR: I have found one error but as it is in spanish i don't know where the margin note ends where should I put the missing } so that it all make sense ? [11:11] "\\marginnote{Embora graficamente modernos \\gls{ambientes de trabalho} " [11:11] "tenham geralmente substituído os primeiros sistemas operativos baseados na " [11:11] "linha de comando, esta pode ainda ser uma rápida e eficiente forma de se " [11:11] "realizarem muitas tarefas. Veja \\chaplink{ch:command-line} para mais " [11:11] "informação, e \\chaplink{ch:the-ubuntu-desktop} para aprender mais sobre o \\" [11:11] "gls{GNOME} e outros ambientes de trabalho." [11:12] ubuntujenkins: portuguese. That was the string I've checked, but it all seemed ok [11:12] let me double-check [11:13] sorry portuguese there is a missing } in it [11:13] it belongs to the first \marginnote [11:14] ubuntujenkins: my bad, it was me who translated it. [11:14] don't worry where does it need to go? [11:15] so the } is right after the full stop [11:15] last one [11:15] so it should be .... [11:15] "\\marginnote{Embora graficamente modernos \\gls{ambientes de trabalho} " [11:15] "tenham geralmente substituído os primeiros sistemas operativos baseados na " [11:15] "linha de comando, esta pode ainda ser uma rápida e eficiente forma de se " [11:15] "realizarem muitas tarefas. Veja \\chaplink{ch:command-line} para mais " [11:15] "informação, e \\chaplink{ch:the-ubuntu-desktop} para aprender mais sobre o \\" [11:15] "gls{GNOME} e outros ambientes de trabalho.}" [11:15] yep [11:15] I've corrected the string [11:16] I will try and fix the other errors now [11:16] ubuntujenkins: it there's something i can help with... :) [11:16] I will find out in a second, just need to work out what the error is an if i can solve it [11:24] danyR: I can't fix the other errors, but the manual now builds a full length version is here http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5012868/ubuntu-manual-pt.pdf . I will ask the latex expert when he is awake, as i think they are glossary related. [11:26] ubuntujenkins: tks, tks, tks. we still have some issues to figure out, mainly related with the chapter linking, but we'll sort that out between the translatores [11:26] translators* [11:27] ok, If you have any laytex questions it is better to ask in the utc evening then our expert is awake. [11:28] ubuntujenkins: ok, thanks again. [11:28] no problem it will hopefully get updated on the server by tomorrow [11:28] I don't have control of the sever [12:22] What is Linux? section never answers the question (too late for bug raport, eh?) [12:24] artnay: file a bug so that it can be included in lucid edition 2 [12:49] uhm [12:49] the bugs link on the site seems broken [12:50] what links popey [12:50] http://ubuntu-manual.org/?bugs [12:50] http://ubuntu-manual.org/bugs [12:50] from the front page [12:50] "Submit any bugs or errata here." [12:52] very strange popey I am not sure where it is suppose to link to I will get the right person t o fix it when they wake up, please file your bug here https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual [12:52] I asume it is a bug with the manual and not quickshot [12:54] i didnt have a bug to file initially, i was just about to read the latest version and a) see if bugs I have previously filed have been addressed, and b) file new ones [12:54] its frustrating not being able to see if my bugs are progressing [12:54] given the build hasn't been updated since 729 on 31/3/10 [13:01] popey: It will not have changed since then as that was the writing freeze but this is the latest build http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2697891/main.pdf [13:01] 404 [13:02] ok give it a second it might not have uploaded [13:06] still nothing ubuntujenkins [13:08] I will ping you when it works popey I am uploading some stuff to the manual server as well and my internet is slow at home [13:08] * ubuntujenkins uploading the live cd takes 4 hours [13:09] thats how slow the internet is [13:12] popey: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5012868/main.pdf (new link i changed the dropbox that it was in) [13:12] thanks [13:14] has the licensing been worked out? [13:20] popey: it has the finla e-mail on it was [13:20] An update on my conversation with Diane about license translations. The Creative Commons acknowledges the lack of linguistically translated versions of the manual -- their process for porting to specific jurisdictions is actually to first linguistically translate, and then adapt to the jurisdiction's laws. [13:20] Diane will work to set up a method for receiving and tracking unofficial linguistic translations of the manual -- and should have something for us within a week or so. Before the release of this manual, we may be able to get access to some translations of the unported license for some of the languages. For other languages, we would include the English version and a link to a (soon to be established) page th [13:20] at will list multilingual versions in development. [13:20] On our side, we will commit to having the CC versions of the translations to be the official ones (meaning that if we help with the translations, we submit our changes to CC and have them host it, and then copy the version that they host). We will also commit to including the latest versions of the licenses whenever we publish an edition. I think these are fair constraints, since it improves the likelihood [13:20] that the license will be considered valid by some jurisdiction if challenged. [13:20] * ubuntujenkins sorry for the spam [13:35] ubuntujenkins: i was more thinking about the compatibility between the license used by U-M and the license used by the documentation wiki [13:35] given chunks of the documentation wiki have been copy/pasted into the manual [13:38] popey I have no clue on that at all, ben hasn't replied to the e-mail on it yet. [13:39] yeah, thats what's worrying me [13:41] lets hope it all gets sorted, we are not popular with the docs team anyway so this doesn't help [13:46] INDEED [13:46] er -caps [14:24] anyone in here speak dutch? [15:07] godbyk, godbyk its on the server :-) [17:11] the channel is very quite today [17:20] QUITE, OH YES! [17:21] * thorwil hunts for dinner [17:29] Hey ubuntujenkins, did you take the Dutch screenshots? [17:30] no titeuf_87 I was reviewing them, and noticed they looked odd [17:30] the majority of them are all in arabic when they should be dutch [17:34] A quick google tells me that people in Aruba also speak Dutch, I think that locale was selected for making the screenshots. [17:37] the nl_AW (aruba) local causes quickshot to crash, [17:37] Yup, looking at that now. [17:38] I don't understand how the arabic ones ended up being labled as nl? [17:43] I just tried logging in with an user using the nl_AW locale and it looks like standard Dutch. [17:45] I also can't simulate your error that you have, quickshot seems to run just fine here using that language. [17:46] strange you can't get that error i ran it a couple of times to check. your not auto launching quickshot are you? [17:46] *can [17:46] I'm not. [17:46] must be me then. [17:47] Although I did try on Karmic. Give me a little bit to install Lucid in virtualbox and I'll see if that changes things. [17:48] may be its the lucid. [17:51] I just added a comemnt on the nl_AW thing. [17:51] Also, yes, Aruba is a mix of Dutch and English. [17:51] (My stepfather's from there) [17:52] On karmic, the exact same thing works for me here. [17:52] wheres the commet i don't see it [17:52] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/quickshot/+bug/554861 [17:52] Launchpad bug 554861 in quickshot "Quickshot crashes on unknown locale" [Medium,Confirmed] [17:53] It's on that one: https://bugs.launchpad.net/quickshot/+bug/556532 [17:53] Launchpad bug 556532 in quickshot "screenshots don't have the correct language code" [Undecided,New] [17:53] It might take a few minutes to appear. [17:53] Launchpad seems to collect all changes so it only pushes out a single e-mail. [17:54] ok read it on the other bug, any idea why the screenshots are being labeld with the wrong language code? [17:55] I must be a lucid thing [17:56] I can't see anything that would make our code go from nl_AW to ar_*. [17:56] stuff isd [17:56] AW != AR, so that can't be it. [17:56] stuff is being taken in an ar_* but showing as nl on screenshots.ubuntu-manual.org [17:57] My tests uploaded to ar just fine, though... [17:57] Though, granted, that was with the PPA. [17:58] I only tested he and de from the LiveCD. [17:58] all of the versions should be the same the only changes since are server based [17:58] * Red_HamsterX boots into ar to check what Python says. [17:59] new live cd will be up today but it has to be put on a usb/dvd its just to big [17:59] is there a Live CD with quickshot, that has the latest theme update? [17:59] Ddorda: the line i just wrote, you can still take them with the old cd. I am waiting for godby-k to wake up to update the server [18:00] ubuntujenkins: I don't have a DVD, and it's a pentium 2, so no boot from USB [18:00] :( [18:02]