| === chaotic_ is now known as chaotic | ||
| === islington_ is now known as islington | ||
| === snubby is now known as VigilantSnub | ||
| krabador | i look many really great ideas.... i can't think about next ubuntu theme, is the worse possibile.... i don't focus about right or left buttons, but colors and other things are really bad, i think developers have drinked their brains | 15:11 |
|---|---|---|
| darkmatter | there we go. now the only thing that remains is to make buttons to replace the ones I temporarily borrowed from elementary. http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/9329/screenshotzxp.png | 16:26 |
| darkmatter | it's a shame we cant specify controls per window type. I'd love for dialogs like that to use window-close-symbolic | 16:30 |
| troy_s | darkmatter: Erm you can't define a class for the dialogs? | 16:31 |
| darkmatter | troy_s: well, kinda, but sub-themeing metacity is even more hackish than gtk | 16:32 |
| troy_s | darkmatter: Have to say though, that typeface is ... Tangoiffic? LOL. | 16:34 |
| darkmatter | no. that typeface is architecturally awesome | 16:35 |
| troy_s | darkmatter: Ok. We will beg to differ on that front. It's a cliched art-decoesque nightmare. | 16:37 |
| troy_s | darkmatter: Not saying that art-deco can't come back. Just that it really has poor colour at that size. | 16:37 |
| troy_s | darkmatter: Maybe as the display face? Body copy it needs a better pairing. | 16:38 |
| darkmatter | no. I just need to patch freetype | 16:40 |
| darkmatter | troy_s: that font is a classic btw. so don't be insulting the work of richard neutra ;o | 16:41 |
| troy_s | darkmatter: I am _strictly_ speaking of context. | 16:41 |
| darkmatter | bah, I'm speaking from "it's the only non-bitmap compact typeface that looks good for me at small sizes and that I can stare at for months at a time without my eyes bleeding." <-- there. context. :P | 16:47 |
| troy_s | darkmatter: Hey cool. Good to see you haven't lost your teeth dark. | 16:48 |
| darkmatter | troy_s: never have, hopefully never will ;) | 17:02 |
| darkmatter | troy_s: but anyway. defining classes for metacity is a royal pain compared to gtk. I would _like_ to be able to set buttons images/colors/text (or lack thereof) based exclusively on dialog type (and matched to the appropriate gtkrc hacks), but it seems metacity is still a bit primative in some of those aspects | 17:07 |
| troy_s | darkmatter: As an aside, I actually think it is a rather interesting face when it's bolded - the time date for example. Is that a mock? | 17:11 |
| troy_s | darkmatter: Because I can't say I have ever been able to see the time / date like that. | 17:11 |
| darkmatter | config/properties dialogs I'd like to blend the deco with the gtk, no menu button, and just a window-close-symbolic styled close button plus title. dialogs that require interaction just have a window-close-symbolic (like the logout/shutdown dialogs. they shall be black when the mod gtkrc is done, I'd also like to kill the title on them), | 17:13 |
| darkmatter | troy_s: nope. that's a custom format string in gconf | 17:13 |
| troy_s | darkmatter: Oh cool. So you stuff a newline in there? | 17:14 |
| darkmatter | yup | 17:14 |
| troy_s | darkmatter: Interesting. | 17:14 |
| darkmatter | troy_s: I have the format string set to: <span size="larger">%l:%M</span> <span size="smaller" color="#AABDAA">%p</span>%n<span size="smaller" color="#AABDAA">%B %e</span> and the format itself to custom. you can do even crazier stuff | 17:16 |
| troy_s | darkmatter: So you can control the weight loosely too? | 17:16 |
| darkmatter | troy_s: yup. and spacing. you just need to experiment a bit. it's kinda hit/miss. but by way of experimentation to see just how flexible it was, I had tried this: http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3408/screenshotni.png | 17:19 |
| troy_s | darkmatter: That stacking of the Date / time is very interesting. It's an interesting look - especially considering the era of high density screens. | 17:20 |
| darkmatter | yup | 17:20 |
| troy_s | darkmatter: _that_ is an asstastic face in that corner. It's like an eaglebold wannabe. What is that? | 17:21 |
| troy_s | darkmatter: Is that the same??? | 17:21 |
| troy_s | darkmatter: Sheet. It's the same. | 17:21 |
| troy_s | darkmatter: Looks quite a bit different with more text in it. | 17:21 |
| troy_s | darkmatter: And wtf is up with the kerning pair on that W e. | 17:22 |
| darkmatter | troy_s: yes. it's neutra text | 17:22 |
| troy_s | darkmatter: I guess that's the colour symptom noted above. Wow. Looks completely strange - is that your hinting level foobaring it possibly? | 17:22 |
| troy_s | darkmatter: You set to slight? | 17:22 |
| darkmatter | troy_s: the kerning issue is related to the dpi/pt/hinting I'm using. unfortunately :/ | 17:23 |
| troy_s | darkmatter: What hinting ist hat? | 17:23 |
| darkmatter | troy_s: I'd have it at slight. but I haven't installed the patched freetype yet, so it's at none | 17:23 |
| darkmatter | and I _still_ use monaco as my monospace. awesome font | 17:26 |
| darkmatter | metacity really needs simplified drawing operations. the non-classed version of the theme I'm working on is 457 lines. I fear the length of the revised version since I'll have to execute drawing ops on a per class basis, so ~1000 lines would be a fair guess | 17:30 |
| troy_s | darkmatter: It heads into a side note. HTML5 / CSS is wonderful but proponents fail to address the need of the audience in question - artists and designers. | 17:31 |
| troy_s | darkmatter: Flash got a foothold because the design toolset was strictly aimed at intermediate level artists and designers with regards to technical aptitude. | 17:32 |
| darkmatter | yeah | 17:32 |
| troy_s | darkmatter: As a result, the toolset (which is quite functional) allowed for extremely rapid uptake (not as easy as say a hobby grade application but faster than say, Nuke, Maya, or even Photoshop) | 17:32 |
| troy_s | darkmatter: It is a factor that we fail to see in Free Software when it comes to who _should_ the audience be for a given piece of software / library. It is one thing to offer the functionality, it is another to get it into the hands of the people that can harness it. | 17:33 |
| troy_s | darkmatter: If the CSS idea ever makes it to full fruition in GNOME, it is quite a brilliant move. | 17:34 |
| troy_s | darkmatter: For that very reason. | 17:34 |
| darkmatter | troy_s: indeed | 17:34 |
| troy_s | darkmatter: That said, to be truly fruitful, there needs to be a software set of visual design tools. Designed for the same audience that uses tools such as Photoshop, Illustrator, etc. Take those interface patterns and apply it to that new tool. | 17:34 |
| troy_s | darkmatter: The net sum result will yield near immediate benefits. | 17:35 |
| thorwil | not enough people understand the value of Flash as an authoring tool | 17:36 |
| * thorwil thinks low x-height rather speaks against Neutra as screen font | 17:38 | |
| darkmatter | cool. I can define a style for all window types, but I'll have to define a complete sub-theme for each style_set in the .xml. looks like the 1000 line estimate falls short by about 200 lines of code ;D | 17:38 |
| thorwil | darkmatter: can't you just write a window manager in 1200 lines instead? ;) | 17:39 |
| darkmatter | thorwil: that would depend on the individual. it 'works for me' as they say. but give me ten years, I'll be switching to 16 point droid sans :P | 17:40 |
| troy_s | thorwil: Agree on Flash. It's a craptastic format and a craptastic application in many regards, but for the given audience (namely independent 'all-in-one' types) it serves as an invaluable asset. | 17:41 |
| darkmatter | thorwil: lol. probably, and with all the needed themeing built in instead of epic amounts of crap to accomplish basic goals. that probably explains why no one has done a per-window-type theme yet | 17:42 |
| thorwil | troy_s: i worked with versions 4 and 5. scripting in 4 sucked, but I wouldn't call 5 craptastic. the movie-in-movie concept is beautiful | 17:43 |
| troy_s | thorwil: There are serious shortcomings (like scripting - but the bulk of the audience likely finds it 'good' as they aren't coder types) but it _really_ nails the market it aims at. | 17:43 |
| troy_s | thorwil: I dare say that _that_ is the reason Flash is everywhere - the people laying out the sites can create stuff faster than in CSS / HTML. Some might not even know CSS / HTML. | 17:44 |
| troy_s | thorwil: Which is a serious argument for _our_ community to step up and deliver solid design tools for those grades of audiences. | 17:44 |
| troy_s | thorwil: Namely the hobbyist 'all in oner'. There is room for a killer-app among CSS / HTML5 creation. Dare I say we may see one from Apple soon. | 17:45 |
| troy_s | thorwil: And watch the migration flow. | 17:45 |
| thorwil | troy_s: recently i wondered if one could start with Pharo Smalltalk and turn it into a viable authoring tool. current state has too many rough edges, at least visually | 17:45 |
| troy_s | thorwil: Of course, buried under the skin will be some more of that patented lock in with some hidden functionality buried inside. | 17:45 |
| troy_s | thorwil: RAD CSS / HTML5. There's a deal breaker right there. | 17:46 |
| troy_s | thorwil: Borrowing from the toolset that audience uses already (hello Flash - looking at you) | 17:46 |
| troy_s | thorwil: By 'borrowing' I mean obviously to use the same layouts (or have a layout by default) that supports the exact same mental model they have built up. | 17:46 |
| thorwil | troy_s: funny thing is, i would want to avoid one of the effects Flash has. saw it with my fellow students 5+ years ago. where i created html/css and used the entire screen, they would go and throw something together in flash. assuming a 800x600 screen, or something like that. all content in a small box, tiny text | 17:48 |
| thorwil | not bookmarkable, no separately scalable text, no select/copy-able text and all that | 17:49 |
| thorwil | bbl | 17:50 |
| troy_s | amen | 17:50 |
| darkmatter | troy_s: it would be nice if you could more specific classes in metacity though, as not all apps follow the rules in a sensible way. for example. capplets: they id as normal windows (which they are) but they are _technically_ configuration dialogs, so should follow dialog definitions in the .xml | 17:55 |
| darkmatter | silliness | 17:55 |
| darkmatter | plus there's also the third party crap that's about as predictable as a squirrel on a sugar rush | 17:56 |
| darkmatter | oh well. maybe the client-side decorator will fix that *shrug* | 17:57 |
| knome | thorwil, http://emonk.fi/open/xubuntu/Official%20logo/Lucid+/mouse-curvy-tail-2d.png | 18:52 |
| knome | thorwil, what do you think of that? | 18:52 |
| thorwil | knome: the tail starts too fat and the curves are slightly off (as in: there's a variation in thickness that shouldn't be there) | 19:02 |
| knome | thorwil, general appearacne? | 19:03 |
| thorwil | knome: otherwise that's seems to be a reasonable way to get the mouse into the circle | 19:03 |
| thorwil | knome: note that this makes it look static, the mouse is not running | 19:04 |
| knome | yes. | 19:04 |
| knome | that's true | 19:04 |
| thorwil | knome: i don't think this can compete with the mouse at the bottom of the logo-type. it might be a reasonable addition/alternative | 19:05 |
| knome | from what i gather from others, they think the opposite | 19:06 |
| thorwil | knome: i can't help them, then. with this approach, you run into scaling issues again | 19:07 |
| darkmatter | knome: cute. also a nice way to do icons in general. I'm a long standing proponent of glyphic representations who is being tormented by being stuck with little blobs of color. lol | 19:07 |
| darkmatter | I really must make a theme | 19:08 |
| knome | thorwil, that's true, but even then, the situation is a lot better what we used to have with the exact xfce mouse. | 19:08 |
| thorwil | knome: combine this with "ubuntu" and place above the mouse-at-bottom variant for a direct comparison at the same scale | 19:09 |
| thorwil | louder tends to sound better. similar can be had with larger | 19:09 |
| knome | thorwil, i very well see your point, the this one is more attractive in bigger sizes, imo | 19:10 |
| darkmatter | I used to have a generic icon for all web browsers when I was playing with metaphors (that made sense). it was 2 pix cornered and had a web spreading out from the upper left corner | 19:11 |
| knome | thorwil, http://emonk.fi/open/xubuntu/Official logo/Lucid+/comparison.png | 19:11 |
| thorwil | knome: no wonder. #6 needs the tail fixed to be similar to #2s tail. mouse could be larger | 19:13 |
| darkmatter | kill craptasic metaphors. everyone with a computer knows what the web is. what better heuristically neutral metaphor for accessing it than a web? ;D | 19:13 |
| knome | thorwil, so could be the circle in #7. | 19:14 |
| knome | thorwil, (bigger) | 19:14 |
| thorwil | knome: no. would become too heavy and you should not start with the geometry of the original ubuntu logo to then mess it up ;) | 19:15 |
| thorwil | i mean, as unhappy as i am with the circle, its size is clearly not random | 19:17 |
| knome | that's true, but regarding to iain, we are free to use any size circle if we want, and if it looks good, then why nor. | 19:18 |
| knome | *not | 19:18 |
| thorwil | salad lies in that direction | 19:20 |
| thorwil | knome: anyway, i think you should eliminate #1 to #4 and maybe also #5 | 19:23 |
| thorwil | i would still run with #6 and not look back | 19:24 |
| knome | maybe. | 19:24 |
| knome | we are still pretty much brainstorming. | 19:28 |
| thorwil | mouse, trap, dirt, cheese, cat, tom an jerry, queak, women jumping unto chairs? | 19:30 |
| knome | nah | 19:31 |
| troy_s | knome: Is that for Xub? | 20:30 |
| vish | huh , probably i'm the only one who thinks thorwil's mouse looks like a sperm | 20:45 |
| vish | http://www.scienceprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/sperm.jpg | 20:45 |
| vish | especially 1 is nearly like the sperm entry with the tail left outside :s | 20:46 |
| thorwil | vish: so you are in a reproduction-oriented mindset? ;) | 20:47 |
| vish | ;p | 20:47 |
| thorwil | vish: actually that thought occurred to me even before i finished the mouse. but so what? every sperm is sacred! | 20:48 |
| thorwil | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0kJHQpvgB8 | 20:49 |
| vish | thorwil: the first image got me thinking like that mainly, > http://legacy.owensboro.kctcs.edu/GCaplan/anat2/notes/ha5lf2902a_a.jpg | 20:49 |
| vish | looks like xfce in just impregnated Ubuntu ;p | 20:49 |
| vish | or something else did ;) | 20:50 |
| knome | troy_s, yeah | 21:24 |
| troy_s | knome: Why not play with figure ground relationships on an x? | 21:25 |
| troy_s | knome: What is the context? | 21:25 |
| knome | troy_s, "the context" ? | 21:25 |
| knome | :P | 21:25 |
| knome | we're brainstorming the new xubuntu logo | 21:25 |
| troy_s | knome: Yes. Nothing exists in a vacuum. Where is it used? What is its purpose? | 21:25 |
| knome | everywhere? | 21:26 |
| troy_s | knome: What size? | 21:26 |
| knome | every | 21:26 |
| troy_s | knome: Can't use it everywhere. If there is a superlative, there is often the chance for error. | 21:26 |
| troy_s | knome: We have done that long enough and failed I'd suggest. | 21:26 |
| troy_s | knome: Miserably. | 21:26 |
| knome | most of those won't work in small sizes, but that's recognised | 21:26 |
| troy_s | knome: Who cares about small sizes? Egads. | 21:26 |
| troy_s | knome: So for an entry image on a webpage? | 21:27 |
| knome | ... as a logo everywhere the logo is supposed to appear | 21:27 |
| knome | and where the text is not doable, the image part | 21:27 |
| troy_s | knome: Context on size? If you are talking something in the 300+ pixel domain, that is likely well ... simplistic? | 21:28 |
| knome | depends. | 21:28 |
| troy_s | knome: Depends is better than everywhere. :) | 21:30 |
| troy_s | knome: Let me be clearer - where is the primary touchpoint for it at this point? | 21:31 |
| knome | probably all the artwork needed in the distro | 21:33 |
| knome | and the website | 21:33 |
| troy_s | knome: So then, do you think that image has enough emotional weight to be a high visibility image on a website? | 21:34 |
| knome | some of those do, some of them not. | 21:35 |
| knome | the simplest stuff would work in small sizes, but i'm not sure if the community will adopt those as their "own" | 21:36 |
| troy_s | knome: Erm... the mouse in a circle. | 21:37 |
| troy_s | knome: Was what I was speaking of. Apparently I missed a few links. :) | 21:37 |
| knome | which one of those? | 21:37 |
| knome | troy_s, http://emonk.fi/open/xubuntu/Official%20logo/Lucid+/comparison.png | 21:37 |
| troy_s | knome: Begs playing with figure ground as a guess. Just at least as a starting point. | 21:39 |
| troy_s | knome: I don't quite get the mouse either... but alas... that's just an old idiot. | 21:39 |
| knome | troy_s, the xfce logo includes a mouse | 21:39 |
| troy_s | knome: That's super. I don't really get that. ;) | 21:39 |
| knome | troy_s, to be exact, the mouse in #3 | 21:40 |
| troy_s | knome: Yes. I have seen it. | 21:40 |
| knome | since that one is pretty playful at least, the one in #6 would be a bid departure. | 21:40 |
| knome | the one in #7 is more in the same style imo | 21:40 |
| troy_s | knome: What is the purpose of it? | 21:42 |
| troy_s | ;) | 21:42 |
| knome | of what? | 21:43 |
| knome | the mouse? | 21:43 |
| troy_s | knome: The logo. | 21:43 |
| knome | troy_s, uh... | 21:43 |
| troy_s | knome: You can make an effortless series of judgement calls that are rooted in deep complexity. | 21:43 |
| troy_s | knome: Think about it before you answer. | 21:43 |
| knome | this discussion goes too deep right now :P | 21:43 |
| troy_s | knome: Not really. | 21:44 |
| knome | for my brain, yes | 21:44 |
| troy_s | knome: If you can't answer why one needs a logo, you likely aren't able to arrive at a conclusion that has merit. | 21:44 |
| troy_s | knome: As in - what is it for? Why? If the answer is some loose thing like 'Look good', there be dragons. | 21:44 |
| knome | the logo is supposed to be tied with the project/product so that whenever one sees the logo, he thinks of the product. | 21:45 |
| troy_s | knome: And a spoon would do that. | 21:45 |
| knome | what i am trying to say is that it's near midnight here | 21:46 |
| troy_s | knome: In fact, using that, just about anything you do will do that. For better or worse. | 21:46 |
| troy_s | knome: Get some sleep. | 21:46 |
| knome | no, i will listen to music | 21:46 |
| knome | i'm open for this discussion later, though tomorrow is a bad day since we have guests | 21:46 |
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